Nina Simone's Face
March 16, 2016 8:15 AM Subscribe
Ta-Nehisi Coates on the trouble with the upcoming Nina Simone biopic:
"Simone was able to conjure glamour in spite of everything the world said about black women who looked like her. And for that she enjoyed a special place in the pantheon of resistance. That fact doesn’t just have to do with her lyrics or her musicianship, but also how she looked."
The trailer for the movie is here.
The trailer for the movie is here.
[I]n some deep way, black women have already seen Mort’s film. Indeed they’ve been seeing it all their lives.
He is so good.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 8:37 AM on March 16, 2016 [32 favorites]
He is so good.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 8:37 AM on March 16, 2016 [32 favorites]
There are all kinds of racial politics involved here of course, but it's just as much about Hollywood's obsession with [its own definition of] physical beauty.
Hollywood can't bear to cast a woman who isn't considered beautiful, even when she plays someone who wasn't.
The most amazing example was Charlize Theron playing Aileen Wuornos in Monster.
posted by crazylegs at 8:41 AM on March 16, 2016 [15 favorites]
Hollywood can't bear to cast a woman who isn't considered beautiful, even when she plays someone who wasn't.
The most amazing example was Charlize Theron playing Aileen Wuornos in Monster.
posted by crazylegs at 8:41 AM on March 16, 2016 [15 favorites]
Robert Johnson, whose studio is releasing Nina
He did make a deal with the devil!
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:43 AM on March 16, 2016 [35 favorites]
He did make a deal with the devil!
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:43 AM on March 16, 2016 [35 favorites]
Also, there's some good conversation happening in Coates' Twitter feed right now in that he has some female critics of the article talking about Afro-Latina erasure that isn't discussed as well as how perhaps this uses the broad bush of black American female looks. Definitely worth reading too.
posted by Kitteh at 8:43 AM on March 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:43 AM on March 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
But the very fact that there’s such a shallow pool of actors who look like Simone is not a non-racist excuse, but a sign of racism itself—the same racism that plagued Nina Simone. Being conscious of that racism means facing the possibility of Simone’s story never being told. That is not the tragedy. The tragedy is that we live in a world that is not ready for that story to be told. The release of Nina does not challenge this fact. It reifies it.
This is so well said and really gets to a point that I think a lot of people with privilege don't get when it comes to discussions about systemic ~isms, especially racism. The problem isn't that the wrong choice was made, the problem is that the full range of choices weren't even available to anyone along the way.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:44 AM on March 16, 2016 [98 favorites]
This is so well said and really gets to a point that I think a lot of people with privilege don't get when it comes to discussions about systemic ~isms, especially racism. The problem isn't that the wrong choice was made, the problem is that the full range of choices weren't even available to anyone along the way.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:44 AM on March 16, 2016 [98 favorites]
Yup, "ideological hegemony" is an obscure phrase that shouldn't be.
"Ideological hegemony is a system of thought control. Ideology is a linked set of ideas and beliefs that act to uphold and justify an existing or desired arrangement of power, authority, wealth and status in a society."
posted by crazylegs at 8:50 AM on March 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Ideological hegemony is a system of thought control. Ideology is a linked set of ideas and beliefs that act to uphold and justify an existing or desired arrangement of power, authority, wealth and status in a society."
posted by crazylegs at 8:50 AM on March 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Also, there's some good conversation happening in Coates' Twitter feed right now in that he has some female critics of the article talking about Afro-Latina erasure that isn't discussed as well as how perhaps this uses the broad bush of black American female looks. Definitely worth reading too.
I don't know how to feel about this, because obviously the Afro-Latina experience is different than the non-Latinx experience, and "dark skinned" is relative across cultures. But at the same time I don't think Coates was practicing erasure when he points out that dark-skinned Black women who possess facial features like Simone's face a different level of judgement within US culture than lighter-skinned women like Saldana, separate from Saldana's ethnicity.
It's like, yes, you have also faced pain and judgement, but it is different from what Simone faced, and this particular issue is about what she and women with her features have gone through.
posted by Anonymous at 8:56 AM on March 16, 2016
I don't know how to feel about this, because obviously the Afro-Latina experience is different than the non-Latinx experience, and "dark skinned" is relative across cultures. But at the same time I don't think Coates was practicing erasure when he points out that dark-skinned Black women who possess facial features like Simone's face a different level of judgement within US culture than lighter-skinned women like Saldana, separate from Saldana's ethnicity.
It's like, yes, you have also faced pain and judgement, but it is different from what Simone faced, and this particular issue is about what she and women with her features have gone through.
posted by Anonymous at 8:56 AM on March 16, 2016
"There is something deeply shameful in the fact that even today a young Nina Simone would have a hard time being cast in her own biopic."
Wow.
posted by bitteroldman at 9:11 AM on March 16, 2016 [55 favorites]
Wow.
posted by bitteroldman at 9:11 AM on March 16, 2016 [55 favorites]
I'm not even done reading the article yet and already I have had to stop and say, "Oh, DAMN" twice.
posted by chatongriffes at 9:20 AM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by chatongriffes at 9:20 AM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't feel the need to see the biopic since the documentary What Happened, Miss Simone? was so heartbreakingly illustrative of her genius and her suffering.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 9:42 AM on March 16, 2016 [32 favorites]
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 9:42 AM on March 16, 2016 [32 favorites]
Representation matters.
REMOVING it from such a poorly represented bloc in a biopic is unconscionable. Whereas removing it an overrepresented one (e.g. Hamilton) opens up whole new feelings.
posted by DigDoug at 9:44 AM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
REMOVING it from such a poorly represented bloc in a biopic is unconscionable. Whereas removing it an overrepresented one (e.g. Hamilton) opens up whole new feelings.
posted by DigDoug at 9:44 AM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I thought a piece in the Huffpo a few weeks ago nailed it more succinctly than this one does - The 'Nina' Trailer Is What Happens When White People Tell Black Stories
posted by Vortisaur at 9:50 AM on March 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Vortisaur at 9:50 AM on March 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
There are all kinds of racial politics involved here of course, but it's just as much about Hollywood's obsession with [its own definition of] physical beauty.
Hollywood can't bear to cast a woman who isn't considered beautiful, even when she plays someone who wasn't.
The most amazing example was Charlize Theron playing Aileen Wuornos in Monster.
Yep, and I cynically believe the main reason Saldana did this is to get an Oscar nomination. She will never live this down and she'll probably never understand why.
posted by fuse theorem at 10:11 AM on March 16, 2016
Hollywood can't bear to cast a woman who isn't considered beautiful, even when she plays someone who wasn't.
The most amazing example was Charlize Theron playing Aileen Wuornos in Monster.
Yep, and I cynically believe the main reason Saldana did this is to get an Oscar nomination. She will never live this down and she'll probably never understand why.
posted by fuse theorem at 10:11 AM on March 16, 2016
Coates is such a brilliant writer.
I wish I could take this article and paste it to the inside of the eyelids of 99% of the people in ALL the comments sections of the mainstream press articles about this when it broke as a news story.
posted by greenish at 10:14 AM on March 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wish I could take this article and paste it to the inside of the eyelids of 99% of the people in ALL the comments sections of the mainstream press articles about this when it broke as a news story.
posted by greenish at 10:14 AM on March 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yep, and I cynically believe the main reason Saldana did this is to get an Oscar nomination. She will never live this down and she'll probably never understand why.
"Happy Black History Month!"
[Insert sad face here.]
posted by Fizz at 10:16 AM on March 16, 2016
"Happy Black History Month!"
[Insert sad face here.]
posted by Fizz at 10:16 AM on March 16, 2016
There are all kinds of racial politics involved here of course, but it's just as much about Hollywood's obsession with [its own definition of] physical beauty.
Hollywood can't bear to cast a woman who isn't considered beautiful, even when she plays someone who wasn't.
I think a large part of the point here is that Hollywood's, and America's, and much of the world's, definition of physical beauty is deeply, horrifyingly, racist. It is a standard which excludes women who look like Nina Simone, and it does so not out of a racially neutral definition of beauty, but specifically because it is a standard of physical beauty designed, among many other goals, specifically to exclude women who look like Nina Simone.
That's what Coates is saying here. That the way our society defines beauty is inherently, deliberately, harmfully, racist.
To say that Hollywood's obsession with its definition of physical beauty is a separate issue from the racial politics is to miss that the racial politics is inherent to and central to the definition of physical beauty.
Its the Doll Test, its Coates' memories of people who looked blacker being mocked, its brown paper bag parties, its all straight up racial politics. We can't consider definitions of physical beauty separately from racial politics because they're one in the same thing.
posted by sotonohito at 10:30 AM on March 16, 2016 [33 favorites]
Hollywood can't bear to cast a woman who isn't considered beautiful, even when she plays someone who wasn't.
I think a large part of the point here is that Hollywood's, and America's, and much of the world's, definition of physical beauty is deeply, horrifyingly, racist. It is a standard which excludes women who look like Nina Simone, and it does so not out of a racially neutral definition of beauty, but specifically because it is a standard of physical beauty designed, among many other goals, specifically to exclude women who look like Nina Simone.
That's what Coates is saying here. That the way our society defines beauty is inherently, deliberately, harmfully, racist.
To say that Hollywood's obsession with its definition of physical beauty is a separate issue from the racial politics is to miss that the racial politics is inherent to and central to the definition of physical beauty.
Its the Doll Test, its Coates' memories of people who looked blacker being mocked, its brown paper bag parties, its all straight up racial politics. We can't consider definitions of physical beauty separately from racial politics because they're one in the same thing.
posted by sotonohito at 10:30 AM on March 16, 2016 [33 favorites]
Also, there's some good conversation happening in Coates' Twitter feed right now in that he has some female critics of the article talking about Afro-Latina erasure that isn't discussed as well as how perhaps this uses the broad bush of black American female looks.
Coates has a wonderful habit of retweeting people who (rationally) disagree with him--often without comment, just to amplify the conversation and show there are differing views. It's the sort of acceptance and welcome of honest debate that we see far too little of in our media and our politics. The guy's a national treasure.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:32 AM on March 16, 2016 [39 favorites]
Coates has a wonderful habit of retweeting people who (rationally) disagree with him--often without comment, just to amplify the conversation and show there are differing views. It's the sort of acceptance and welcome of honest debate that we see far too little of in our media and our politics. The guy's a national treasure.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:32 AM on March 16, 2016 [39 favorites]
Again, this is one of the things I really like about Coates. He never shouts down people who disagree with him, but RTs because inevitably, we could all stand to learn something new or consider a viewpoint we were unaware was there. (He has also been amazingly patient with people accusing him of either being a shill for HRC or Sanders.)
posted by Kitteh at 10:40 AM on March 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 10:40 AM on March 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm hoping that in the years to come, people will start engaging with the substance of his arguments, instead of focusing on "bankable " stars.
Is telling the story more important or the money? I know it's Hollywood, so I already know the answer to that question, but they've already committed to making a "black" movie and already have lowered expectations for box office receipts. So why not go further for authenticity? Even if the people who are making the movie are white, I still just don't get it: they've committed to going that far, why not go a little further? Is it that important for the stars to be conventionally attractive?
TL;DR the racism has become invisible to the people attempting to mean better :(
posted by Strudel at 10:51 AM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is telling the story more important or the money? I know it's Hollywood, so I already know the answer to that question, but they've already committed to making a "black" movie and already have lowered expectations for box office receipts. So why not go further for authenticity? Even if the people who are making the movie are white, I still just don't get it: they've committed to going that far, why not go a little further? Is it that important for the stars to be conventionally attractive?
TL;DR the racism has become invisible to the people attempting to mean better :(
posted by Strudel at 10:51 AM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean, I think it comes down to not having black people in the room when decisions like this are made. And not a token black person, but enough to represent the discussion you may be missing. From the perspective of a room full of white people, the important thing was to cast a black person in the role, and why wouldn't Zoe Saldana fit the bill?
As I white person, I'm not really qualified to participate in the discussion about black representation. I have no skin in the game, as it were -- my life is not significantly impacted by how Simone is represented onscreen. The way I see myself isn't impacted. I'm not a useful part of any discussion about Latino women of color, or the experience of light-skinned black people vs dark-skinned black people, or how American standards of beauty have always been about excluding features typical of people of color. I haven't lived it, my understanding of it is academic and incomplete, and so, as an artist, I am not going to be able to make a informed decision about these issues, or even be aware enough to know that it's even a decision that needs to be evaluated.
It's not that white artists can't participate in the telling of black stories -- indeed, because white artists often have more and better opportunities to tell stories, I think they must, or the stories don't get told at all. But this isn't an opportunity to unilaterally become the spokesperson for a black story -- it's an opportunity for partnership. Get black people in the room with you. Listen to them. Accept whatever participation they offer. And credit them. Without that, even if you somehow miraculously manage to tell the story without making a catastrophically uninformed decision, you've nonetheless managed to colonize somebody else's story.
I mean, basically, if you're doing anything that is about an experience that is not yours, and you look around the room, and it is almost all people who have had exactly the same experience as you, you're already off to a bad start. Get some black people in the room.
posted by maxsparber at 11:09 AM on March 16, 2016 [14 favorites]
As I white person, I'm not really qualified to participate in the discussion about black representation. I have no skin in the game, as it were -- my life is not significantly impacted by how Simone is represented onscreen. The way I see myself isn't impacted. I'm not a useful part of any discussion about Latino women of color, or the experience of light-skinned black people vs dark-skinned black people, or how American standards of beauty have always been about excluding features typical of people of color. I haven't lived it, my understanding of it is academic and incomplete, and so, as an artist, I am not going to be able to make a informed decision about these issues, or even be aware enough to know that it's even a decision that needs to be evaluated.
It's not that white artists can't participate in the telling of black stories -- indeed, because white artists often have more and better opportunities to tell stories, I think they must, or the stories don't get told at all. But this isn't an opportunity to unilaterally become the spokesperson for a black story -- it's an opportunity for partnership. Get black people in the room with you. Listen to them. Accept whatever participation they offer. And credit them. Without that, even if you somehow miraculously manage to tell the story without making a catastrophically uninformed decision, you've nonetheless managed to colonize somebody else's story.
I mean, basically, if you're doing anything that is about an experience that is not yours, and you look around the room, and it is almost all people who have had exactly the same experience as you, you're already off to a bad start. Get some black people in the room.
posted by maxsparber at 11:09 AM on March 16, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'm hoping that in the years to come, people will start engaging with the substance of his arguments, instead of focusing on "bankable " stars.
My favorite meme of recent memory:
"For years Hollywood told us that female and minority leads in movies didn't sell."
/picture of Rey and Finn from Star Wars: Force Awakens
"Highest grossing film of all time."
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:15 AM on March 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
My favorite meme of recent memory:
"For years Hollywood told us that female and minority leads in movies didn't sell."
/picture of Rey and Finn from Star Wars: Force Awakens
"Highest grossing film of all time."
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:15 AM on March 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
I mean, basically, if you're doing anything that is about an experience that is not yours, and you look around the room, and it is almost all people who have had exactly the same experience as you, you're already off to a bad start.
David Simon talked about the importance of having people from the communities he wants to tell stories about in his excellent interview on Another Round (an excellent podcast). It's so damn sensible, it makes situations like this movie even more frustrating.
posted by EvaDestruction at 11:25 AM on March 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
David Simon talked about the importance of having people from the communities he wants to tell stories about in his excellent interview on Another Round (an excellent podcast). It's so damn sensible, it makes situations like this movie even more frustrating.
posted by EvaDestruction at 11:25 AM on March 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
To reinforce bitteroldman's sentiment:
"There is something deeply shameful in the fact that even today a young Nina Simone would have a hard time being cast in her own biopic."
is the real meat of his argument. Just WOW.
That and the fact that Zoe had to essentially blacken and 'uglify' herself. And then, to top it off, to have Robert Johnson say stuff like
"The most important thing is that creativity or quality of performance should never be judged on the basis of color, or ethnicity, or physical likeness.”
The question to Mr. Johnson would be,"If you truly believe that; why the prosthetics and the blackface?"
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:26 AM on March 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
"There is something deeply shameful in the fact that even today a young Nina Simone would have a hard time being cast in her own biopic."
is the real meat of his argument. Just WOW.
That and the fact that Zoe had to essentially blacken and 'uglify' herself. And then, to top it off, to have Robert Johnson say stuff like
"The most important thing is that creativity or quality of performance should never be judged on the basis of color, or ethnicity, or physical likeness.”
The question to Mr. Johnson would be,"If you truly believe that; why the prosthetics and the blackface?"
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:26 AM on March 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Excellent point, Celsius - not only were they female and minority, but they weren't big, well-known names. Star Wars is a big, well-known name guaranteed to sell big receipts, but the fact remains: insisting on bankable stars causes us to miss out on a lot of great performances AND inflates movie budgets, for arguably little advantage. I don't need to already know the star to enjoy a movie or entice me to go, and in that case, neither did the majority of viewers.
JJ Abrams could do it (I'm not terribly impressed with him), how hard could it be? It's cheaper, AND it works just fine. I can't imagine that Saldana was among the more inexpensive options for this movie...
posted by Strudel at 11:27 AM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
JJ Abrams could do it (I'm not terribly impressed with him), how hard could it be? It's cheaper, AND it works just fine. I can't imagine that Saldana was among the more inexpensive options for this movie...
posted by Strudel at 11:27 AM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's been a discussion around beauty norms and standards on my African timeline - consensus was the media wants us to bleach and buy blue contact lenses else why would they be shoving such unrealistic norms down our throats. (context is folks who aren't the minority in their countries of origin but are still fed the same tropes in mass communications, advertising and cinema)
posted by infini at 11:34 AM on March 16, 2016
posted by infini at 11:34 AM on March 16, 2016
This reminds of discussions my partner and I have had about the tumblr. My partner is subscribed primarily to folks within the tumblr black and queer subcommunities, and every once-in-a-while I end up browsing (as in co-reading) over their shoulder. If you look closely, the people who often rise to the top in these subcommunities, via reblogs and likes, are more often than not "conventionally attractive" and light skinned. It's likely that this is in part due to the open nature of Tumblr, where they might be receiving buoyancy from large demographics outside the communities they post in/towards. Having said that, I am firmly of the mind that a combination of inwardly-directed biases and some gross allies skew the numbers too. The result of their social success is that these people then become the voices of social justice.
I feel like it's a similar phenomenon to what Coates is discussing. People outside the boundaries of our culturally mandated, white-biased notions of attractiveness do not get to tell their stories. It is as if people are only interested in the cable news version of bad things; tragedy and injustice are only credible when shiny people spell it our for us in a way that titillates.
posted by constantinescharity at 12:00 PM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I feel like it's a similar phenomenon to what Coates is discussing. People outside the boundaries of our culturally mandated, white-biased notions of attractiveness do not get to tell their stories. It is as if people are only interested in the cable news version of bad things; tragedy and injustice are only credible when shiny people spell it our for us in a way that titillates.
posted by constantinescharity at 12:00 PM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Good for Coates for pointing out that there's a difference of opinion about the color of Saldana's skin, but it seems a little oppression Olympics to me. Certainly her skin is not the same color as Nina Simone's.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:30 PM on March 16, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:30 PM on March 16, 2016
I also loved the What Happened, Miss Simone? documentary and so much of it was about her physical presence: her face and her voice go together so powerfully. The trailer is feels terribly weak and point-missing by comparison. I can imagine a truly great artist, who looks like Nina Simone, sort of making me confuse her face with Nina Simone's for the duration of a film. Zoe Saldana doesn't come close in the trailer. It's like listening to Adele or someone try and imitate Nina Simone's voice: yes, this could be competent mimicry but it's completely different from the all but inimitable person / voice / presence you are trying to evoke.
Another example of racism being terrible not only because it's racism, and hurts people, but because it's dishonest and shallow and makes for bad (or worse) art. How disappointing.
posted by Aravis76 at 12:36 PM on March 16, 2016
Another example of racism being terrible not only because it's racism, and hurts people, but because it's dishonest and shallow and makes for bad (or worse) art. How disappointing.
posted by Aravis76 at 12:36 PM on March 16, 2016
Nina Simone’s family asks fans to hold listening parties instead of watching biopic
posted by infini at 12:40 PM on March 16, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by infini at 12:40 PM on March 16, 2016 [21 favorites]
Ireland's favorite Nina ( at least mine): "A tribute to Nina", Karen Underwood. The lady is talented, passionate, Afro-American-Irish, born and raised in Chicago, lives in Cork, works with autistic children, active volunteerfund raiser and lives with her Irish partner, a woman from the midlands. Two times and counting and I would see her again. I guess Hollywood will not recruit her.
posted by rmhsinc at 12:40 PM on March 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rmhsinc at 12:40 PM on March 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Star Wars is a big, well-known name guaranteed to sell big receipts, but the fact remains: insisting on bankable stars causes us to miss out on a lot of great performances AND inflates movie budgets
"Star Wars" was the only bankable star that mattered here. Absolutely everyone else involved (except for Ford, maybe Abrams) was on the "who gives a shit?" end of the scale.
A project with Uwe Boll as director, and Dane Cook/Rebecca Black as leads, would have been greenlit in seconds, and prob still would have been in the 10 ten for all-time gross.
posted by sideshow at 12:42 PM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Star Wars" was the only bankable star that mattered here. Absolutely everyone else involved (except for Ford, maybe Abrams) was on the "who gives a shit?" end of the scale.
A project with Uwe Boll as director, and Dane Cook/Rebecca Black as leads, would have been greenlit in seconds, and prob still would have been in the 10 ten for all-time gross.
posted by sideshow at 12:42 PM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
You know, maybe you're right, but every single time I have ever pointed out a film that did well with a black lead, there has been someone to say, nah uh, this one was special, it didn't matter that there was a black lead, or a woman lead, or whatever.
And I don't believe it. I think it serves to reinforce the idea that, in general, regular, everyday movies won't do well without a white male lead. It no true Scotsmans every single person who isn't a white male into nonexistence, where the only thing important was the aberration of the film.
And the thing is, I don't believe it. Not with Star Wars, not with Hunger Games, not with, I don't know, Furious 7, or Frozen, or Inside Out, or whatever else has made the top grossing films list despite starring a woman or a person of color. They're not all special, and the general audience doesn't prefer white men in white stories. It's just what we've been given in the past. And now that we've been given other options, we've shown that we will support films with people of color and women as leads, support them all the way up the box office, right to the top.
Star Wars wasn't unique in that it didn't matter who starred in it. Star Wars was just another film where we proved we were happy to have women and black people star in it.
posted by maxsparber at 1:17 PM on March 16, 2016 [45 favorites]
And I don't believe it. I think it serves to reinforce the idea that, in general, regular, everyday movies won't do well without a white male lead. It no true Scotsmans every single person who isn't a white male into nonexistence, where the only thing important was the aberration of the film.
And the thing is, I don't believe it. Not with Star Wars, not with Hunger Games, not with, I don't know, Furious 7, or Frozen, or Inside Out, or whatever else has made the top grossing films list despite starring a woman or a person of color. They're not all special, and the general audience doesn't prefer white men in white stories. It's just what we've been given in the past. And now that we've been given other options, we've shown that we will support films with people of color and women as leads, support them all the way up the box office, right to the top.
Star Wars wasn't unique in that it didn't matter who starred in it. Star Wars was just another film where we proved we were happy to have women and black people star in it.
posted by maxsparber at 1:17 PM on March 16, 2016 [45 favorites]
Coates is a national treasure.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:20 PM on March 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:20 PM on March 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think you could just as easily say "There's no way Hollywood would take a risk on a property as important as Star Wars by putting in a woman and a black guy as the leads, it would be foolish to expect that!" Certainly there was plenty of anger from certain Star Wars fans about Finn when it became clear he wasn't just a sidekick. And Rey was a total shock, because who would guess they'd let a woman play the Savior role in this giant franchise? Who else is doing that? We still don't have a Black Widow, or Captain Marvel, or She-Hulk movie, but we got fucking Ant Man. Because Marvel movies always do well! But they still won't let a woman have the lead. And if you ask them why, they will have some compelling reason that is actually just sexist bullshit.
I'm still mad about The Last Airbender movie, a franchise that was so good on race and gender and was totally crapped on and whitened up for no goddamn reason...certainly not because that's what fans wanted. And it flopped. Why doesn't that count? Why is a movie with a woman/black lead that flops proof that people just aren't ready for those movies, but flops starring white people, or characters who've been whitened, are never proof that audiences want something different?
posted by emjaybee at 1:52 PM on March 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
I'm still mad about The Last Airbender movie, a franchise that was so good on race and gender and was totally crapped on and whitened up for no goddamn reason...certainly not because that's what fans wanted. And it flopped. Why doesn't that count? Why is a movie with a woman/black lead that flops proof that people just aren't ready for those movies, but flops starring white people, or characters who've been whitened, are never proof that audiences want something different?
posted by emjaybee at 1:52 PM on March 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
Star Wars was just another film where we proved we were happy to have women and black people star in it.
There's this thing we do sometimes, where we want something to be true so much that we say it is, and we really believe it's true. But it doesn't do us any favors. Because when we are altering our perception to match what we want, it lowers our ability to change things.
The majority of white audiences do not want to see black stars that look like Nina Simone. When you look at the black stars who are famous and successful, it is worth noting that a vast, vast majority do pass the paper bag test. All of the black stars that have "sex appeal" do. That is a real problem, but it's not a problem that gets fixed by pretending it doesn't exist. That's a problem that gets fixed by changing society on the whole, and there is no quick fix for it.
So yeah, I get irritated when people are like "It's just the directors! They are the only ones who embody racism in America!" Because it's not the directors. It's not as though if the directors changed their casting, the vast, unracist hordes would line up to celebrate, because they've been longing for more diverse casting all their life. That's a lie people tell themselves so that they don't have to confront that the implicit biases affect everyone. Everyone.
If you are white, and reading this thread: How many romantic movies have you watched where the leads were both black? Where most of the cast was black? Not where it was some arty movie that everyone was talking about that you would be able to talk about with friends and feel good about yourself. Just a trashy romantic comedy, where almost everyone in it was a different race than you? Or an action movie? I have no doubt you've seen one. But I think that if you critically examine the movies you watch, you will find that you watch more movies with people who look like you than people you don't. And I'm sure the first defensive response is going to be "But directors don't cast black actors!" Yes, they do. There are black films, especially black romantic comedies, all over the damn place, because black women have money and are happy to spend it, and directors toe the bottom line. They just don't market them in the places you frequent, and when you see them, they don't appeal to you.
This is a societal problem. Directors mimic society. We need to fix society, not just talk about how the directors are failing.
posted by corb at 1:54 PM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's this thing we do sometimes, where we want something to be true so much that we say it is, and we really believe it's true. But it doesn't do us any favors. Because when we are altering our perception to match what we want, it lowers our ability to change things.
The majority of white audiences do not want to see black stars that look like Nina Simone. When you look at the black stars who are famous and successful, it is worth noting that a vast, vast majority do pass the paper bag test. All of the black stars that have "sex appeal" do. That is a real problem, but it's not a problem that gets fixed by pretending it doesn't exist. That's a problem that gets fixed by changing society on the whole, and there is no quick fix for it.
So yeah, I get irritated when people are like "It's just the directors! They are the only ones who embody racism in America!" Because it's not the directors. It's not as though if the directors changed their casting, the vast, unracist hordes would line up to celebrate, because they've been longing for more diverse casting all their life. That's a lie people tell themselves so that they don't have to confront that the implicit biases affect everyone. Everyone.
If you are white, and reading this thread: How many romantic movies have you watched where the leads were both black? Where most of the cast was black? Not where it was some arty movie that everyone was talking about that you would be able to talk about with friends and feel good about yourself. Just a trashy romantic comedy, where almost everyone in it was a different race than you? Or an action movie? I have no doubt you've seen one. But I think that if you critically examine the movies you watch, you will find that you watch more movies with people who look like you than people you don't. And I'm sure the first defensive response is going to be "But directors don't cast black actors!" Yes, they do. There are black films, especially black romantic comedies, all over the damn place, because black women have money and are happy to spend it, and directors toe the bottom line. They just don't market them in the places you frequent, and when you see them, they don't appeal to you.
This is a societal problem. Directors mimic society. We need to fix society, not just talk about how the directors are failing.
posted by corb at 1:54 PM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is a societal problem. Directors mimic society. We need to fix society, not just talk about how the directors are failing.
Yes and no. By way of "fixing society," directors and the rest of Hollywood can do a gigantic amount of good by reflecting what real people look like in America -- skin color, sex/gender/orientation, culture, etc. And not just token sidekicks and maids. In fucking 2016.
There's a reason back in the 60s Martin Luther King Jr asked Nichelle Nichols to stick it out on Star Trek. In 2016, Hollywood can and should do better.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:59 PM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes and no. By way of "fixing society," directors and the rest of Hollywood can do a gigantic amount of good by reflecting what real people look like in America -- skin color, sex/gender/orientation, culture, etc. And not just token sidekicks and maids. In fucking 2016.
There's a reason back in the 60s Martin Luther King Jr asked Nichelle Nichols to stick it out on Star Trek. In 2016, Hollywood can and should do better.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:59 PM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
How many romantic movies have you watched when re the leads were both black?
I mean, me specifically? Hundreds. Maybe I'm an edge case, but I don't think Hollywood reflects the viewing habits of the public so much as the viewing public takes what they're offered. Empire is doing pretty well, and I bet it isn't just black people watching it.
posted by maxsparber at 3:03 PM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I mean, me specifically? Hundreds. Maybe I'm an edge case, but I don't think Hollywood reflects the viewing habits of the public so much as the viewing public takes what they're offered. Empire is doing pretty well, and I bet it isn't just black people watching it.
posted by maxsparber at 3:03 PM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
There are black films, especially black romantic comedies, all over the damn place, because black women have money and are happy to spend it, and directors toe the bottom line. They just don't market them in the places you frequent, and when you see them, they don't appeal to you.
Not to mention the assumption that any movie with a Black cast is going to be terrible Tyler Perry nonsense. Best Man Holiday would've been a Love Actually-style Christmas classic if the cast was White.
posted by Anonymous at 3:11 PM on March 16, 2016
Not to mention the assumption that any movie with a Black cast is going to be terrible Tyler Perry nonsense. Best Man Holiday would've been a Love Actually-style Christmas classic if the cast was White.
posted by Anonymous at 3:11 PM on March 16, 2016
Mod note: Couple comments removed. If this is not an issue you're familiar with, speculation is at best unhelpful, and reading rather than writing is what's called for. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:14 PM on March 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:14 PM on March 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yep, and I cynically believe the main reason Saldana did this is to get an Oscar nomination. She will never live this down and she'll probably never understand why.
I'd agree Saldana was looking to elevate her status as an actress, but I disagree she'll never understand the blowback. She has already said in interviews that she regrets taking the part.
posted by Anonymous at 3:18 PM on March 16, 2016
I'd agree Saldana was looking to elevate her status as an actress, but I disagree she'll never understand the blowback. She has already said in interviews that she regrets taking the part.
posted by Anonymous at 3:18 PM on March 16, 2016
Ijeoma Oluo wrote a particularly trenchant article on this subject, from the perspective of a Black feminist who is also a light-skinned black woman.
posted by KathrynT at 4:05 PM on March 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 4:05 PM on March 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
The point is that Nina Simone is not ugly, at all ...
Maybe it was because she projected so much power, or because she was already a legend among the friends who introduced me to her, but I've always just assumed that everyone saw her as beautiful.
posted by kanewai at 4:08 PM on March 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Maybe it was because she projected so much power, or because she was already a legend among the friends who introduced me to her, but I've always just assumed that everyone saw her as beautiful.
posted by kanewai at 4:08 PM on March 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's this thing we do sometimes, where we want something to be true so much that we say it is, and we really believe it's true. But it doesn't do us any favors. Because when we are altering our perception to match what we want, it lowers our ability to change things.
I guess it was just star dust and wishes that made me go see Starwars and Mad Max multiple times in the theatre, specifically and vocally because of the main characters? A sentiment I saw vocalized across my largely white social networks?
The majority of white audiences do not want to see black stars that look like Nina Simone.
Prove it. No seriously.
So yeah, I get irritated when people are like "It's just the directors! They are the only ones who embody racism in America!"
Who is saying that? I can't see anyone in this thread, and none of the articles I've read on this have done anything but interlock this entire situation with structural societal problems. That it's a nuanced problem with many levels.
This is a societal problem. Directors mimic society. We need to fix society, not just talk about how the directors are failing.
The vast majority of actual arguments and criticisms are coming from people with a vested interest on this. On websites with a primarily black audience and on "black twitter."
What do you think they are trying to do? What should they be doing?
posted by mayonnaises at 4:36 PM on March 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess it was just star dust and wishes that made me go see Starwars and Mad Max multiple times in the theatre, specifically and vocally because of the main characters? A sentiment I saw vocalized across my largely white social networks?
The majority of white audiences do not want to see black stars that look like Nina Simone.
Prove it. No seriously.
So yeah, I get irritated when people are like "It's just the directors! They are the only ones who embody racism in America!"
Who is saying that? I can't see anyone in this thread, and none of the articles I've read on this have done anything but interlock this entire situation with structural societal problems. That it's a nuanced problem with many levels.
This is a societal problem. Directors mimic society. We need to fix society, not just talk about how the directors are failing.
The vast majority of actual arguments and criticisms are coming from people with a vested interest on this. On websites with a primarily black audience and on "black twitter."
What do you think they are trying to do? What should they be doing?
posted by mayonnaises at 4:36 PM on March 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
"For years Hollywood told us that female and minority leads in movies didn't sell."
/picture of Rey and Finn from Star Wars: Force Awakens
"Highest grossing film of all time."
The fact that it was the long awaited film seven of the third highest grossing franchise in movie history was also a factor. If, however, film one back in 1977 had starred a totally unknown Billy Dee Williams and Pam Grier*, would it have sparked a revolution, or been dismissed as SciFi blaxsploitation (assuming it would have been made at all)?
Happily, by 1984 Hollywood learned that a black man could open in a mainstream movie.
(How many people have actually seen this as yet unreleased biopic?)
*Star, incidentally, of the only good Quentin Tarantino movie, mostly because of her and the movie's Elmore Leonard material.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:51 PM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
/picture of Rey and Finn from Star Wars: Force Awakens
"Highest grossing film of all time."
The fact that it was the long awaited film seven of the third highest grossing franchise in movie history was also a factor. If, however, film one back in 1977 had starred a totally unknown Billy Dee Williams and Pam Grier*, would it have sparked a revolution, or been dismissed as SciFi blaxsploitation (assuming it would have been made at all)?
Happily, by 1984 Hollywood learned that a black man could open in a mainstream movie.
(How many people have actually seen this as yet unreleased biopic?)
*Star, incidentally, of the only good Quentin Tarantino movie, mostly because of her and the movie's Elmore Leonard material.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:51 PM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's like the relief I feel when, as a woman, I look at comics by Lynda Barry or Alison Bechdel and see recognizable representations of women's bodies. It's then I realize the huge spectrum of female physical diversity that does not make it into most comic books and how oppressive it has always been without me even knowing it.
posted by acrasis at 5:35 PM on March 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by acrasis at 5:35 PM on March 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
A tweet from the "Official Twitter for the Estate & Legacy of Dr. Nina Simone" that was directed at Saldana last week said, "Cool story but please take Nina's name out your mouth. For the rest of your life."
Nina's daughter Lisa Simone Kelly has defended Zoe Saldana, stating she is not responsible for "any of the writing or the lies" in the film. (The article also says that Nina's family hired a friend to handle social media years ago, but doesn't specify who wrote the above tweet directed at Saldana.)
posted by nightrecordings at 6:00 PM on March 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nina's daughter Lisa Simone Kelly has defended Zoe Saldana, stating she is not responsible for "any of the writing or the lies" in the film. (The article also says that Nina's family hired a friend to handle social media years ago, but doesn't specify who wrote the above tweet directed at Saldana.)
posted by nightrecordings at 6:00 PM on March 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I think that if you critically examine the movies you watch, you will find that you watch more movies with people who look like you than people you don't. And I'm sure the first defensive response is going to be "But directors don't cast black actors!" Yes, they do. There are black films, especially black romantic comedies, all over the damn place, because black women have money and are happy to spend it, and directors toe the bottom line. They just don't market them in the places you frequent, and when you see them, they don't appeal to you.
There are lots of black musicians with major interracial appeal though or, say, black stand-up comedians. At least a few TV shows even though also quite a few that probably cross over less. So if you're right about films what is it that makes the difference?
I am a.) white and b.) male so this is really not my area of expertise but it feels to me like there is a whole genre of black-lead rom-coms (or other-coms) but that this is kind of movie that particularly tends to be read by white people as "not for us," a cultural insider-y thing? Of course rap music is often intentionally insider-y but instead of shying away white audiences are thrilled to try to decode it all. So what makes the difference here? Marketing?
I'm not really aware of a ton of independent black action movies - let me know if this is in fact a thing. There are a fair number of black roles in mainstream action movies (and, you know, Will Smith) but they tend to be pretty stereotype-laden?
posted by atoxyl at 6:17 PM on March 16, 2016
There are lots of black musicians with major interracial appeal though or, say, black stand-up comedians. At least a few TV shows even though also quite a few that probably cross over less. So if you're right about films what is it that makes the difference?
I am a.) white and b.) male so this is really not my area of expertise but it feels to me like there is a whole genre of black-lead rom-coms (or other-coms) but that this is kind of movie that particularly tends to be read by white people as "not for us," a cultural insider-y thing? Of course rap music is often intentionally insider-y but instead of shying away white audiences are thrilled to try to decode it all. So what makes the difference here? Marketing?
I'm not really aware of a ton of independent black action movies - let me know if this is in fact a thing. There are a fair number of black roles in mainstream action movies (and, you know, Will Smith) but they tend to be pretty stereotype-laden?
posted by atoxyl at 6:17 PM on March 16, 2016
Actually a whole bunch of the examples I was just talking about or thinking of seem to evince a divide between how black women are allowed to be in pop culture versus black men. Which takes us straight back to the article...
posted by atoxyl at 6:25 PM on March 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 6:25 PM on March 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
God, poor Zoe Saldana. She deserves better than to be caught up in all this crap.
posted by gsh at 7:01 PM on March 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by gsh at 7:01 PM on March 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not really aware of a ton of independent black action movies - let me know if this is in fact a thing.
The Fast and Furious franchise features an ensemble cast which is overwhelmingly non-white. The seven movies in the franchise have collectively earned nearly four billion-with-a-B dollars worldwide.
posted by KathrynT at 9:18 PM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Fast and Furious franchise features an ensemble cast which is overwhelmingly non-white. The seven movies in the franchise have collectively earned nearly four billion-with-a-B dollars worldwide.
posted by KathrynT at 9:18 PM on March 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
"The majority of white audiences do not want to see black stars that look like Nina Simone."
Prove it. No seriously.
Just checking, you are really asking for proof that the US beauty ideal is Eurocentric?
it feels to me like there is a whole genre of black-lead rom-coms (or other-coms) but that this is kind of movie that particularly tends to be read by white people as "not for us,"
White people are turned off by minority casts. POC grow up being forced to identify with and root for White characters, for lack of other options. White people don't have that experience. So we see non-White people and think "that's not for me, I'm out", as opposed to "Well, let's see what I can work with here" approach.
It's a product of White privilege. To pull out romcoms, we are looking at some of the lightest, cookie-cutter, milquetoast plots out there, and yet the presence of Black skin somehow convinces us that the movie will be totally weird.
posted by Anonymous at 10:10 PM on March 16, 2016
Prove it. No seriously.
Just checking, you are really asking for proof that the US beauty ideal is Eurocentric?
it feels to me like there is a whole genre of black-lead rom-coms (or other-coms) but that this is kind of movie that particularly tends to be read by white people as "not for us,"
White people are turned off by minority casts. POC grow up being forced to identify with and root for White characters, for lack of other options. White people don't have that experience. So we see non-White people and think "that's not for me, I'm out", as opposed to "Well, let's see what I can work with here" approach.
It's a product of White privilege. To pull out romcoms, we are looking at some of the lightest, cookie-cutter, milquetoast plots out there, and yet the presence of Black skin somehow convinces us that the movie will be totally weird.
posted by Anonymous at 10:10 PM on March 16, 2016
The majority of white audiences do not want to see black stars that look like Nina Simone. When you look at the black stars who are famous and successful, it is worth noting that a vast, vast majority do pass the paper bag test. All of the black stars that have "sex appeal" do. That is a real problem, but it's not a problem that gets fixed by pretending it doesn't exist. That's a problem that gets fixed by changing society on the whole, and there is no quick fix for it.
This is such a steaming pile of.... You telling me Idris Elba doesn't have sex appeal? Lupita Nyong'o? I guess she keeps getting on the cover of Vogue because she's good at math. Viola Davis isn't successful? Whoopi Goldberg has won an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and a Tony. Pretty sure that means some white people were buying what she was selling at some point. Denzel Washington has been a bankable leading man, and sex symbol for since the 1980s. Grace Jones. Naomi Campbell. Alex Wek. Kevin Hart seems to be in 67% of the movies released in the past 2 years. Oprah WInfrey may not be "sexy" but she sure is a billionaire.
Samuel L. Jackson is ranked as the second highest all-time box office star with over $4.635.5 billion total box office gross, an average of $68.2 million per film. Morgan Freeman at #4, Eddie Murphy at #5. 3 of the top 5 are black actors!
Yes, I'm shouting, because what the fuck?! Why do people keep spouting this nonsense?
Just as in every other aspect of society that old "White People aren't ready" proves to be a lie every time. It's racism that keeps people from getting an equal shot to prove themselves, and calling it anything but simply enables that racism to continue.
There is a very quick fix for it. Give people a chance to be excellent, and the world will respond to their excellence.
With that said, I leave you with Angela Bassett monologuing the hell out of some MacBeth
posted by billyfleetwood at 10:15 PM on March 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is such a steaming pile of.... You telling me Idris Elba doesn't have sex appeal? Lupita Nyong'o? I guess she keeps getting on the cover of Vogue because she's good at math. Viola Davis isn't successful? Whoopi Goldberg has won an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and a Tony. Pretty sure that means some white people were buying what she was selling at some point. Denzel Washington has been a bankable leading man, and sex symbol for since the 1980s. Grace Jones. Naomi Campbell. Alex Wek. Kevin Hart seems to be in 67% of the movies released in the past 2 years. Oprah WInfrey may not be "sexy" but she sure is a billionaire.
Samuel L. Jackson is ranked as the second highest all-time box office star with over $4.635.5 billion total box office gross, an average of $68.2 million per film. Morgan Freeman at #4, Eddie Murphy at #5. 3 of the top 5 are black actors!
Yes, I'm shouting, because what the fuck?! Why do people keep spouting this nonsense?
Just as in every other aspect of society that old "White People aren't ready" proves to be a lie every time. It's racism that keeps people from getting an equal shot to prove themselves, and calling it anything but simply enables that racism to continue.
There is a very quick fix for it. Give people a chance to be excellent, and the world will respond to their excellence.
With that said, I leave you with Angela Bassett monologuing the hell out of some MacBeth
posted by billyfleetwood at 10:15 PM on March 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
> When you look at the black stars who are famous and successful, it is worth noting that a vast, vast majority do pass the paper bag test. All of the black stars that have "sex appeal" do.
I think there's a big double standard between women and men in that regard. It is much, much harder for a dark-skinned black woman to be considered sexy in a mainstream (i.e. to white people) way, even when respected as actors. Dark-skinned black men are more accepted as sex symbols. I mean, Idris fucking Elba. And Mike Colter as Luke Cage on "Jessica Jones," and Billy Brown as Nick Lahey on "How to Get Away with Murder," off the top of my head.
Of course, there's some exoticism and some hypersexual masculine stereotypes driving that, so it's a complicated and problematic way of gauging progress. Despite the persistent visceral fear of black men on the street, there has long been room for white women to find black male performers sexy.
posted by desuetude at 10:39 PM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think there's a big double standard between women and men in that regard. It is much, much harder for a dark-skinned black woman to be considered sexy in a mainstream (i.e. to white people) way, even when respected as actors. Dark-skinned black men are more accepted as sex symbols. I mean, Idris fucking Elba. And Mike Colter as Luke Cage on "Jessica Jones," and Billy Brown as Nick Lahey on "How to Get Away with Murder," off the top of my head.
Of course, there's some exoticism and some hypersexual masculine stereotypes driving that, so it's a complicated and problematic way of gauging progress. Despite the persistent visceral fear of black men on the street, there has long been room for white women to find black male performers sexy.
posted by desuetude at 10:39 PM on March 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
One important thing to consider in searching for the linchpin of Hollywood's generally whitewashed casting is that studio releases are now produced with expected international market value hard-coded into the bottom line. Here's an article from 2014 about the phenomenon as it shows up in posters. And, Hollywood has reason to believe that international audiences want American movies to continue to fulfill the brand it developed over decades: white, white, white. It's really not the choice of "a director" or even just "a room of people." It's a huge investment base, and they will be very, very careful with their money.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:16 AM on March 17, 2016
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:16 AM on March 17, 2016
That's assuming the "international market" is only European?
posted by infini at 1:54 AM on March 17, 2016
posted by infini at 1:54 AM on March 17, 2016
That's assuming the "international market" is only European?I think it's a cop-out to blame markets and that Hollywood consistently overestimates the racism of its audiences, but it would also be wrong to suggest that Europe was the only place where there was prejudice against people of African descent and colorism that favors light-skinned people over dark-skinned. I actually think those things are problems in lots of parts of the world.
Lupita Nyong'o is really interesting, in that she's a dark-skinned actress who is widely considered to be one of the most beautiful and glamorous women in the world. On the other hand, she hasn't appeared in a ton of movies since she won the Oscar, and wasn't her role in the Star Wars movie CGI? (I am the last person in the world who hasn't seen that movie, which should probably disqualify me from commenting on anything. I don't like movies that are bangy or flashy, which may also be disqualifying.) And Grace Jones, Naomi Campbell and Alek Wek were all not primarily actresses, with the partial exception of Jones. I actually think that high fashion might have more room for dark-skinned women than Hollywood does.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:56 AM on March 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Fast and Furious franchise features an ensemble cast which is overwhelmingly non-white.
Let us not forget that the Fast and Furious franchise started with an Irish cop taking on an Italian criminal. Only two out of the eight main characters were (portrayed as) non-white. To mangle Churchill, Hollywood will do the right thing after exhausting all other options.
posted by Etrigan at 6:08 AM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Let us not forget that the Fast and Furious franchise started with an Irish cop taking on an Italian criminal. Only two out of the eight main characters were (portrayed as) non-white. To mangle Churchill, Hollywood will do the right thing after exhausting all other options.
posted by Etrigan at 6:08 AM on March 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
emjaybee: I'm still mad about The Last Airbender movie, a franchise that was so good on race and gender and was totally crapped on and whitened up for no goddamn reason.
You and I and many others are still mad about that one. And yet Hollywood continues to do this with adaptations of Japanese media...
Whitewashing of Asian Characters in Hollywood Anime/Manga Adaptations
Many of us who enjoy cinema are conditioned to think of whiteness as the default. As if there weren’t already enough roles written for White actors, Hollywood decides that no one could’ve been a better fit for this Japanese speaking character living in Japan than, you guessed it, a White actress.
6 Japanese Actresses Who Could (And Should!) Replace Scarlett Johansson in "Ghost in the Shell"
If we’re going to talk about Hollywood’s race problem, let’s get really real about it—not only do African-American actors get whitewashed by the entertainment industry, but so do Asian actors, even (maddeningly) when parts specifically call for an Asian character.
posted by gen at 6:31 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
You and I and many others are still mad about that one. And yet Hollywood continues to do this with adaptations of Japanese media...
Whitewashing of Asian Characters in Hollywood Anime/Manga Adaptations
Many of us who enjoy cinema are conditioned to think of whiteness as the default. As if there weren’t already enough roles written for White actors, Hollywood decides that no one could’ve been a better fit for this Japanese speaking character living in Japan than, you guessed it, a White actress.
6 Japanese Actresses Who Could (And Should!) Replace Scarlett Johansson in "Ghost in the Shell"
If we’re going to talk about Hollywood’s race problem, let’s get really real about it—not only do African-American actors get whitewashed by the entertainment industry, but so do Asian actors, even (maddeningly) when parts specifically call for an Asian character.
posted by gen at 6:31 AM on March 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
And, Hollywood has reason to believe that international audiences want American movies to continue to fulfill the brand it developed over decades: white, white, white. It's really not the choice of "a director" or even just "a room of people." It's a huge investment base, and they will be very, very careful with their money.
And I believe the exact opposite. They said the same thing about music, and they were wrong. They said the same thing about sports, and they were wrong. They said the same thing about fashion, and they were wrong. They said the same thing about advertising, and they were wrong. Hollywood is one of the last racist holdouts in the world of culture and media, and it's all based on an easily disprovable lie. Give everyone an equal shot, and watch what happens.
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:26 AM on March 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
And I believe the exact opposite. They said the same thing about music, and they were wrong. They said the same thing about sports, and they were wrong. They said the same thing about fashion, and they were wrong. They said the same thing about advertising, and they were wrong. Hollywood is one of the last racist holdouts in the world of culture and media, and it's all based on an easily disprovable lie. Give everyone an equal shot, and watch what happens.
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:26 AM on March 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I know it kinda pains Ta-Nehisi Coates to fill the role of Black Person Who Explains Things So That Well-Meaning White People Can Understand. But I really do learn something every time I read him. I am grateful to have heard his take on this.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:15 AM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:15 AM on March 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Four Women by Nina Simone
My skin is brown
And my manner is tough
I'll kill the first mother I see
Cos my life has been rough
I'm awfully bitter these days
Because my parents were slaves
What do they call me
My Name is Peaches
posted by lathrop at 10:36 AM on March 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
My skin is brown
And my manner is tough
I'll kill the first mother I see
Cos my life has been rough
I'm awfully bitter these days
Because my parents were slaves
What do they call me
My Name is Peaches
posted by lathrop at 10:36 AM on March 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
White people are turned off by minority casts. POC grow up being forced to identify with and root for White characters, for lack of other options. White people don't have that experience. So we see non-White people and think "that's not for me, I'm out", as opposed to "Well, let's see what I can work with here" approach.
Sure, overall - I was just talking about how it plays out differently in different genres and especially in different media. By my count exactly 25% of the top 40 songs of 2015 (in the U.S.) were by black performers, which is nearly twice what would be proportional - though note that other minorities are nowhere to be seen and most of the rest of the songs on the list are very white. This isn't a mystery either, there's lots of history behind it - and also like I said you can see some prescribed roles for black men and even more prescribed roles for black women very clearly looking at the same examples. I was just proposing to discuss what it is that makes these differences and exceptions because it suggests it's not impossible to get white audiences to identify with POC.
posted by atoxyl at 12:12 PM on March 17, 2016
Sure, overall - I was just talking about how it plays out differently in different genres and especially in different media. By my count exactly 25% of the top 40 songs of 2015 (in the U.S.) were by black performers, which is nearly twice what would be proportional - though note that other minorities are nowhere to be seen and most of the rest of the songs on the list are very white. This isn't a mystery either, there's lots of history behind it - and also like I said you can see some prescribed roles for black men and even more prescribed roles for black women very clearly looking at the same examples. I was just proposing to discuss what it is that makes these differences and exceptions because it suggests it's not impossible to get white audiences to identify with POC.
posted by atoxyl at 12:12 PM on March 17, 2016
As an African-American, I will gladly engage anyone on this question of should we be talking about how light or how dark you should be to play a role.
posted by Mothlight at 1:07 PM on March 17, 2016
posted by Mothlight at 1:07 PM on March 17, 2016
schroedinger, looking at the study you cite it doesn't quite say that white audiences avoid movies with black actors. In fact, it says that in general white audiences aren't avoiding black actors, though in the specific genre of romantic comedies they do, and that more frequent moviegoers seem to express a preference for better known (which usually means whiter) stars.
Plus, of course, there's the problem that the study was done of self selected college kids, so not exactly reflective of America as a whole.
posted by sotonohito at 1:44 PM on March 17, 2016
Plus, of course, there's the problem that the study was done of self selected college kids, so not exactly reflective of America as a whole.
posted by sotonohito at 1:44 PM on March 17, 2016
'Nina Simone': an exceptional night of theater - a Minneapolis theater's own tribute to Nina Simone.
How it came to be.
posted by jillithd at 8:07 AM on March 18, 2016
How it came to be.
posted by jillithd at 8:07 AM on March 18, 2016
Oh, I know the playwright of that one, Christina Ham. I'm sorry I'm not in Minneapolis to see it.
posted by maxsparber at 8:12 AM on March 18, 2016
posted by maxsparber at 8:12 AM on March 18, 2016
As an African-American, I will gladly engage anyone on this question of should we be talking about how light or how dark you should be to play a role.
Mr. Johnson's claim that this is a modern-day brown paper bag test skirts the subject and ignores the larger issues at hand. Since Mr. Johnson is a black man who lived through the 1960s, I am surprised he does not know what Nina Simone stood for, both for herself and for the hundreds of thousands of people she inspired along the way.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:43 AM on March 21, 2016
Mr. Johnson's claim that this is a modern-day brown paper bag test skirts the subject and ignores the larger issues at hand. Since Mr. Johnson is a black man who lived through the 1960s, I am surprised he does not know what Nina Simone stood for, both for herself and for the hundreds of thousands of people she inspired along the way.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:43 AM on March 21, 2016
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"That's why we cast Amy Adams!"
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:19 AM on March 16, 2016 [32 favorites]