Miracles From Hollywood - Faith-Based Films Get Big
March 29, 2016 12:03 PM Subscribe
"Faith-based dramas" (i.e., Christian wish-fulfillment stories) are making their way to multiplexes and attracting a lot of eyeballs and dollars. From the 2008 surprise indie hit Fireproof (starring Kirk Cameron as a porn-addicted firefighter who reconnects with his wife thanks to God) to this month's Miracles From Heaven (starring tabloid A-lister Jennifer Garner as a mother whose child is miraculously cured of a debilitating disease), the overtly evangelistic genre is increasingly mainstream. The AV Club takes a look at whether the new wave of faith-based filmmaking can transcend propaganda.
Protestant Evangelists aren't the only faith with a cinema genre -- the AV Club previously discussed the Mormon indy cinema, or "Mollywood", which also churns out comedies that lean more heavily on in-jokes about Latter-Day Saint culture than theology.
Protestant Evangelists aren't the only faith with a cinema genre -- the AV Club previously discussed the Mormon indy cinema, or "Mollywood", which also churns out comedies that lean more heavily on in-jokes about Latter-Day Saint culture than theology.
Seems mostly accurate though.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:15 PM on March 29, 2016 [43 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 12:15 PM on March 29, 2016 [43 favorites]
i.e., Christian wish-fulfillment stories
That's a pretty harsh framing.
Having read the A.V. Club piece this morning - it's an entirely accurate framing.
posted by naju at 12:16 PM on March 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
That's a pretty harsh framing.
Having read the A.V. Club piece this morning - it's an entirely accurate framing.
posted by naju at 12:16 PM on March 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
That said, it's amazing to me that it took so long for Hollywood to catch up to the fact that there was serious money to be made from the evangelical market. If Kirk Cameron and his B-movie schlock could rake it in with negligible production costs, why not Hollywood? It's not like they haven't done it before. Ben Hur, Ten Commandments, etc...
The only thing I can figure is that it's some combination of personal disdain and coastal parochialism.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
The only thing I can figure is that it's some combination of personal disdain and coastal parochialism.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Most movies are wish-fulfillment stories in one way or another, or they never get financed and made. I see nothing harsh about the framing that adds the word "Christian" to the string.
posted by blucevalo at 12:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by blucevalo at 12:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
When do we get Pagan wish-fulfillment stories?
posted by andreaazure at 12:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by andreaazure at 12:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
That's a pretty harsh framing.
For a certain subset of self-identified Christians, isn't it entirely accurate?
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:18 PM on March 29, 2016
For a certain subset of self-identified Christians, isn't it entirely accurate?
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:18 PM on March 29, 2016
When do we get Pagan wish-fulfillment stories?
Lord of the Rings? Harry Potter? sort of?
posted by wabbittwax at 12:19 PM on March 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
Lord of the Rings? Harry Potter? sort of?
posted by wabbittwax at 12:19 PM on March 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
> A movie like Miracles From Heaven is a different story, however. Early on, it’s promising in its ability to tell an encompassing story, but by the time Anna condescendingly declares non-believers will “get there when they get there,” there’s the sense that the film is carving a separation in its audience, splitting them up between believers and non-believers.
As a non-believer, one problem I'd have with films like these is that most of them seem to literally end with a deus ex machina; there's a problem, and then (yo) God solves it. The End. This is, theological issues aside, not a compelling narrative.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:19 PM on March 29, 2016 [56 favorites]
As a non-believer, one problem I'd have with films like these is that most of them seem to literally end with a deus ex machina; there's a problem, and then (yo) God solves it. The End. This is, theological issues aside, not a compelling narrative.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:19 PM on March 29, 2016 [56 favorites]
The only thing I can figure is that it's some combination of personal disdain and coastal parochialism.
The reason that Hollywood moviemakers are not condescendingly making fake Christian films to kowtow to a demographic they don't really understand just to make money is because of... disdain and coastal parochialism? What?
posted by naju at 12:21 PM on March 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
why not Hollywood? It's not like they haven't done it before. Ben Hur
That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
posted by jedicus at 12:21 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
posted by jedicus at 12:21 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
"You're not making Christianity better, you're making [movies] worse."
--Hank Hill
posted by resurrexit at 12:21 PM on March 29, 2016 [75 favorites]
--Hank Hill
posted by resurrexit at 12:21 PM on March 29, 2016 [75 favorites]
Should anyone be interested in a"faith-based film" that isn't concerned with one of these two very specific Christian experiences, I suggest the genuinely good Arranged (2007), about a friendship between two young Jewish and Muslim women.
posted by seraphine at 12:22 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by seraphine at 12:22 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is, theological issues aside, not a compelling narrative.
Don't think their audience cares
posted by glaucon at 12:22 PM on March 29, 2016
Don't think their audience cares
posted by glaucon at 12:22 PM on March 29, 2016
The reason that Hollywood moviemakers are not condescendingly making fake Christian films to kowtow to a demographic they don't really understand just to make money is because of... disdain and coastal parochialism? What?
Right, but they literally are doing that right now. My point was, why did it take them so long?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2016
Right, but they literally are doing that right now. My point was, why did it take them so long?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2016
When do we get Pagan wish-fulfillment stories?
Lord of the Rings? Harry Potter? sort of?
I was going to say The Craft...but sure.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Lord of the Rings? Harry Potter? sort of?
I was going to say The Craft...but sure.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
That said, it's amazing to me that it took so long for Hollywood to catch up to the fact that there was serious money to be made from the evangelical market. If Kirk Cameron and his B-movie schlock could rake it in with negligible production costs, why not Hollywood? It's not like they haven't done it before. Ben Hur, Ten Commandments, etc...
The only thing I can figure is that it's some combination of personal disdain and coastal parochialism.
There's presumably good money here, but Hollywood is only interested in LUDICROUS money, which is why they are focused on making movies that sell globally. Thus painfully bland superhero stories and not Christian dramas that probably won't play in a lot of foreign markets.
posted by selfnoise at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
The only thing I can figure is that it's some combination of personal disdain and coastal parochialism.
There's presumably good money here, but Hollywood is only interested in LUDICROUS money, which is why they are focused on making movies that sell globally. Thus painfully bland superhero stories and not Christian dramas that probably won't play in a lot of foreign markets.
posted by selfnoise at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Wabbitwax: I mean, grounded in the real world as Fireproof is. So, not Lord of the Rings.
(If you had a giant eagle the entire freaking time...)
posted by andreaazure at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
(If you had a giant eagle the entire freaking time...)
posted by andreaazure at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure even the target audience would disagree with it, though. My mom and her friends seem to largely gravitate to reading books on the basis of wanting to spend time in a simpler world where they know everything will work out. Like, even in fiction aimed at adults, there's a distinct distaste for including too much unsavory content... even if said unsavory content is described in completely negative ways. Like, looking at Fireproof, the evidence of the husband's terrible misdeeds is that he looks at porn on the internet and he wants to buy a boat. The fact that the former is even mentioned at all ranks it pretty high on the shock meter by evangelical standards. In the Left Behind books, as I recall--I did actually read them, but it's been a long time--Rayford's great sin against his wife is that he talks to a younger woman and has considered having an affair with her.
It's an interesting contrast to the real world when you see what happened with people like Ted Haggard and Mark Driscoll. Not just sex scandals, but in general, the sins people engage in fictionally are always a lot less hurtful than the ones they do in the real world.
posted by Sequence at 12:24 PM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
It's an interesting contrast to the real world when you see what happened with people like Ted Haggard and Mark Driscoll. Not just sex scandals, but in general, the sins people engage in fictionally are always a lot less hurtful than the ones they do in the real world.
posted by Sequence at 12:24 PM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
Great cinema’s always been about bringing audiences together, but the current landscape of faith-based film only seems to tearing them apart.
And then you can buy your Not Of This World decal in the church store on your way out and put it on your Escalade in the parking lot. This is the whole point.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:24 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
And then you can buy your Not Of This World decal in the church store on your way out and put it on your Escalade in the parking lot. This is the whole point.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:24 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
When do we get Pagan wish-fulfillment stories?
Face front, true believer!
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:25 PM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
andreaazure: "When do we get Pagan wish-fulfillment stories?"
honk honk nerds
posted by boo_radley at 12:26 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
honk honk nerds
posted by boo_radley at 12:26 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love watching these movies. I mean probably not Miracles from Heaven, which I have no desire to see, but other evangelical movies are great: Fireproof, God's Not Dead, The Woodworker, Ring the Bell, The Encounter. Good stuff.
I liked Arranged, too, but it clearly wasn't in the same genre.
So anyway, please list relevant movies so I can watch them all.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:27 PM on March 29, 2016
I liked Arranged, too, but it clearly wasn't in the same genre.
So anyway, please list relevant movies so I can watch them all.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:27 PM on March 29, 2016
Ben Hur, Ten Commandments, etc...
Hail Caesar!
posted by Existential Dread at 12:28 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hail Caesar!
posted by Existential Dread at 12:28 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Like, looking at Fireproof, the evidence of the husband's terrible misdeeds is that he looks at porn on the internet and he wants to buy a boat. The fact that the former is even mentioned at all ranks it pretty high on the shock meter by evangelical standards.
It's not mentioned. You're supposed to infer it. I assume this is so the movie is not child unfriendly... I mean no kid would want to see it, but if they do, there's no sexual content and for younger kids it would probably just fly over their heads. I mean the Duggars went to see this movie (with Kirk Cameron) at a Christian film festival. If it had actually mentioned porn, I can't imagine they would have watched it.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:29 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not mentioned. You're supposed to infer it. I assume this is so the movie is not child unfriendly... I mean no kid would want to see it, but if they do, there's no sexual content and for younger kids it would probably just fly over their heads. I mean the Duggars went to see this movie (with Kirk Cameron) at a Christian film festival. If it had actually mentioned porn, I can't imagine they would have watched it.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:29 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wabbitwax: I mean, grounded in the real world as Fireproof is. So, not Lord of the Rings.
UNBELIEVER!!!
(If you had a giant eagle the entire freaking time...)
Because the Nazgul riding their wingéd beasts would have destroyed them. It's like you guys didn't pay attention in Sunday School!
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:34 PM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
UNBELIEVER!!!
(If you had a giant eagle the entire freaking time...)
Because the Nazgul riding their wingéd beasts would have destroyed them. It's like you guys didn't pay attention in Sunday School!
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:34 PM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
Pamela's Prayer is the Citizen Kane of Christian faith-based movies, as far as I'm concerned. You can watch the whole thing here! Or just read this recap.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 12:34 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by imnotasquirrel at 12:34 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
starring Kirk Cameron as a porn-addicted firefighter
Hott.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:35 PM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Hott.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:35 PM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Right, but they literally are doing that right now. My point was, why did it take them so long?
The article gave a lot of really great examples of "faith-based" movies that were "good" movies, but didn't hit well with the specific evangelical demographic that is driving the current "faith based drama" trend. It also gave examples of really bad, big action, big budget movies, like the recent Noah movie and Exodus: Gods and Kings Among Us.
It's not that hollywood is ignoring the religious sect, it's that they aren't putting out religious propaganda. It'd be interesting to see how Fireproof and Miracles from heaven would have done if they weren't so heavily supported/pushed by the institution of the church.
posted by mayonnaises at 12:35 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
The article gave a lot of really great examples of "faith-based" movies that were "good" movies, but didn't hit well with the specific evangelical demographic that is driving the current "faith based drama" trend. It also gave examples of really bad, big action, big budget movies, like the recent Noah movie and Exodus: Gods and Kings Among Us.
It's not that hollywood is ignoring the religious sect, it's that they aren't putting out religious propaganda. It'd be interesting to see how Fireproof and Miracles from heaven would have done if they weren't so heavily supported/pushed by the institution of the church.
posted by mayonnaises at 12:35 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I mean the Duggars went to see this movie (with Kirk Cameron) at a Christian film festival. If it had actually mentioned porn, I can't imagine they would have watched it.
Not all of them, anyway.
posted by DiscountDeity at 12:37 PM on March 29, 2016 [33 favorites]
Not all of them, anyway.
posted by DiscountDeity at 12:37 PM on March 29, 2016 [33 favorites]
I was wondering why the trailer for Miracles from Heaven gave the entire story away. I guess the target crowd is gonna see it no matter what.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:37 PM on March 29, 2016
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:37 PM on March 29, 2016
It's not that hollywood is ignoring the religious sect, it's that they aren't putting out religious propaganda.
Yeah, the movies that are doing well are coming from tried-and-true believers, it sounds like. Hollywood studios are mostly not getting the phenomenon. The most they can do is throw their dollars and resources at people who do.
posted by naju at 12:40 PM on March 29, 2016
Yeah, the movies that are doing well are coming from tried-and-true believers, it sounds like. Hollywood studios are mostly not getting the phenomenon. The most they can do is throw their dollars and resources at people who do.
posted by naju at 12:40 PM on March 29, 2016
a porn-addicted firefighter
"You can imagine what happens next."
"He puts out the fire ...?"
posted by octobersurprise at 12:40 PM on March 29, 2016 [38 favorites]
"You can imagine what happens next."
"He puts out the fire ...?"
posted by octobersurprise at 12:40 PM on March 29, 2016 [38 favorites]
I love watching these movies. I mean probably not Miracles from Heaven, which I have no desire to see, but other evangelical movies are great: Fireproof, God's Not Dead, The Woodworker, Ring the Bell, The Encounter. Good stuff.
I know what you mean. It's like the difference between watching Plan 9 From Outer Space or Sharknado: both are objectively bad movies, but one was a cynical cash-grab shepherded into being by stuffed suits and written by committee, while the other was the passionate creation of an eccentric artist, made with love and tender care and to the best of his meager abilities.
Yes, I'm saying that Kirk Cameron is the Ed Wood of our times.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:40 PM on March 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
I know what you mean. It's like the difference between watching Plan 9 From Outer Space or Sharknado: both are objectively bad movies, but one was a cynical cash-grab shepherded into being by stuffed suits and written by committee, while the other was the passionate creation of an eccentric artist, made with love and tender care and to the best of his meager abilities.
Yes, I'm saying that Kirk Cameron is the Ed Wood of our times.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:40 PM on March 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
Kirk Cameron isn't the Ed Wood we need, but he's the Ed Wood we deserve.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 12:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [28 favorites]
When do we get Pagan wish-fulfillment stories?
wouldst thou like to live deliciously?
posted by ghostbikes at 12:44 PM on March 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
wouldst thou like to live deliciously?
posted by ghostbikes at 12:44 PM on March 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
> This is, theological issues aside, not a compelling narrative.
Don't think their audience cares
Yeah, I am most definitely not the target market and as such it doesn't matter what I think.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:44 PM on March 29, 2016
Don't think their audience cares
Yeah, I am most definitely not the target market and as such it doesn't matter what I think.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:44 PM on March 29, 2016
It'd be interesting to see how Fireproof and Miracles from heaven would have done if they weren't so heavily supported/pushed by the institution of the church.
But leotrotsky's point stands. That actually reinforces it: there's this small but dependable niche market of the faithful for religious propaganda films that's basically a guaranteed revenue stream.
A smart major studio should set up a subsidiary, perhaps one where their direct ownership is hidden, and churn out low-to-mid budget religious propaganda films like these. If they could figure out the cap to that institutional church support, they would have discovered any movie studio's wet dream: a reliable, predictable audience for their films. They could know that one of these films will always get around $X, and budget accordingly.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:46 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
But leotrotsky's point stands. That actually reinforces it: there's this small but dependable niche market of the faithful for religious propaganda films that's basically a guaranteed revenue stream.
A smart major studio should set up a subsidiary, perhaps one where their direct ownership is hidden, and churn out low-to-mid budget religious propaganda films like these. If they could figure out the cap to that institutional church support, they would have discovered any movie studio's wet dream: a reliable, predictable audience for their films. They could know that one of these films will always get around $X, and budget accordingly.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:46 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
When do we get Pagan wish-fulfillment stories?
Did I miss when somebody mentioned the Wicker Man?
posted by maxsparber at 12:49 PM on March 29, 2016 [32 favorites]
Did I miss when somebody mentioned the Wicker Man?
posted by maxsparber at 12:49 PM on March 29, 2016 [32 favorites]
A thread about Christian movies and the Pagans have to show up and make it all about them.
posted by srboisvert at 12:50 PM on March 29, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 12:50 PM on March 29, 2016 [27 favorites]
Kirk Cameron isn't the Ed Wood we need, but he's the Ed Wood we deserve.
BANANAMAN BEGINS
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:52 PM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
BANANAMAN BEGINS
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:52 PM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
A smart major studio should set up a subsidiary, perhaps one where their direct ownership is hidden, and churn out low-to-mid budget religious propaganda films like these.
The article mentions Affirm Films, a label of Sony.
posted by naju at 12:53 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
The article mentions Affirm Films, a label of Sony.
posted by naju at 12:53 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Kirk Cameron isn't the Ed Wood we need, but he's the Ed Wood we deserve.
Neil Breen succeeds at being both, and his crazypants philosophy (which I can only assume is as sincerely held as Kirk Cameron's) makes for 1000% more entertaining movies.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:53 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Neil Breen succeeds at being both, and his crazypants philosophy (which I can only assume is as sincerely held as Kirk Cameron's) makes for 1000% more entertaining movies.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:53 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
When do we get Pagan wish-fulfillment stories?
Everyone else who has responded to this is WRONG WRONG WRONG and you should go and see Jupiter Ascending immediately.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:55 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Everyone else who has responded to this is WRONG WRONG WRONG and you should go and see Jupiter Ascending immediately.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:55 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
As a non-believer, one problem I'd have with films like these is that most of them seem to literally end with a deus ex machina; there's a problem, and then (yo) God solves it. The End. This is, theological issues aside, not a compelling narrative.
Given a sufficiently interesting god, this can be an extremely compelling narrative. I'm thinking of something like Euripides' The Bacchae. To be fair, the way Euripides uses the deus ex machina isn't so much "god fixes thing" as "god acts in terrifying and capricious ways to 'fix' thing."
As a non-believer who nonetheless has a lot of fascination for and interest in religious narratives, and narratives about faith, I am very much aware that "faith-based dramas" are in no way for me, and that's fine. I mean, there can't be a big audience for a "faith-based drama" in the vein of Euripides, and alas, there wasn't a sufficiently big audience for the weird yet fascinating Bible story adaptation/alternate universe that was NBC's Kings. That's basically my aesthetic though. Someone get on that.
posted by yasaman at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Given a sufficiently interesting god, this can be an extremely compelling narrative. I'm thinking of something like Euripides' The Bacchae. To be fair, the way Euripides uses the deus ex machina isn't so much "god fixes thing" as "god acts in terrifying and capricious ways to 'fix' thing."
As a non-believer who nonetheless has a lot of fascination for and interest in religious narratives, and narratives about faith, I am very much aware that "faith-based dramas" are in no way for me, and that's fine. I mean, there can't be a big audience for a "faith-based drama" in the vein of Euripides, and alas, there wasn't a sufficiently big audience for the weird yet fascinating Bible story adaptation/alternate universe that was NBC's Kings. That's basically my aesthetic though. Someone get on that.
posted by yasaman at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think we are getting our pagan wish-fulfillment with American Gods.
Jupiter Ascending is more of a 12-year-old-girl's first attempt at fantasy writing. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But pagan? Nah.
posted by emjaybee at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Jupiter Ascending is more of a 12-year-old-girl's first attempt at fantasy writing. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But pagan? Nah.
posted by emjaybee at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
So where does the disgusting Little Boy fit in? I guess GOD NUKES THE PAGAN UNBELIEVERS is a uniquely American strain of Christian wish fulfillment?
posted by Existential Dread at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Incidentally, I watched "Finding Normal" on Netflix this weekend. It's a Candace Cameron Bure movie. Not as explicitly Christian as I had hoped, but there was a tacked on subplot about a guy from Massachusetts suing with the ACLU as his lawyers to have a cross removed from the side of the highway. That's something I guess.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016
Ooh – nobody's talked about my favorite of these from a few months ago: Little Boy, which manages to heighten the standard tastelessness and garish mopery in the typical faith-based drama to a transcendental level which makes it utterly repulsive. I've been dying to see it; one of these days I'll have to see if it can be had via torrent or something.
posted by koeselitz at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by koeselitz at 12:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
koeselitz: last I looked it was available on Netflix streaming. I have not dared to view it.
posted by Existential Dread at 12:59 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Existential Dread at 12:59 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
OK, I have issues with Christian art in the 21st century, specifically music but also cinema. I'm going to focus on Christian culture and am curious if the phenomenon I'm about to address is true in other religions as well.
Many years ago, I went to a small atoll in the Marshall Islands called Namdrik. While there, I had to attend a church service. It was in Ebon, which I don't understand, so I was half paying attention until the singing started. When the singing did start, I almost fell out of my seat. Multi-part, gorgeous harmony. It was like hearing the voice of God.
I came back from that trip thinking I'd maybe look into becoming Christian. The first service I went to back in the USA involved a "worship team" that sang bland songs with lyrics that basically amounted to "Jesus. Jesus. Jesuuuusssss." I was so turned off (and frankly kind of insulted) that I never went back.
But I did start pouring over modern Christian music and with a few exceptions found that the bulk of the music was like fifth rate Creed with moronic platitudes in place of lyrics. Obviously, this is subjective, but in my opinion neither the form nor the content was aesthetically pleasing.
I want to contrast this with Sufjan Stevens who, love him or hate him, is a Christian artist who creates pieces that are genuinely musically interesting and lyrics that grapple with issues of faith, ultimately coming down on the side of faith most of the time. This is not meant as an anti-Christian rant - just an anti-bland art rant.
I can't speak for the larger Christian music scene, but I'm in the music world out here and hang out with a bunch of great musicians who play on worship teams. These are some genuinely gifted musicians but they admit when they play during services, they play music that they think is lame. Why? Well, as its been explained to me, they've been asked to play lame music with simplistic lyrics by the various priests and preachers in their lives so the music doesn't "take focus away from the focus on the Word."
OK, so, I look back at the history of classical music in the West. Much of Bach's music, for example, was an aural attempt at creating a bridge up to heaven. If you want to, you can listen to his amazing music and imagine him lifting his arms up to God.
Not like fucking "With Arms Wide Open. Fuck that song.
The music and lyrics in most mainstream white Christian music these days is not focused on making the listeners feel the presence of God (which I think I did on Namdrik or when I listen to a really good performance of liturgical classical music or, heck, sort of even when I listen to 'Will The Circle Be Unbroken' by The Carter Family) but to drill little platitudes into their heads. Its the adult equivalent of those children's songs which admonish you to brush your teeth or look both ways before you cross the street.
To whit, the songs are Christian, but God is not in them.
Now, you look back at the history of any art form that intersected with Christianity and you'll find the same thing. While, yes, the crap has largely been filtered out by time leaving us with the pearls of the past, modern Christian art is rubbish because its reduced to shit like Fireproof where God is a magic panacea for some dude's bullshit porn problems. Part of what makes films like Ben Hur great is that the humans have to do the hard work of making the world better - God sets them on the path and tells them what they need to do but they have to make the choice to do the actual hard work (and make the sacrifices) to make things happen. God doesn't just come in and fix it because one day Ben Hur decides to let God in his heart. Humans in the old bible aren't absolved from their responsibilities just because they inhale some magic Jesus essence. They have to work their asses off.
Much modern Christian art assumes you are too lazy and stupid to do the hard work, so its just going to tell you "hey, say the name Jesus a few times and you're a good person - now go back to being the piece of shit you are in real life. Its ok. You said 'Jesus.'" Not all of it, of course. And, obviously, this is a larger problem across the more entertainment-focused part of the art world.
But, you know, if you've ever had a genuinely transcendent moment while listening to a piece of music or watching a remarkable movie, its hard to go back to "Praise him praise him praise hiiiiiiiiiim" and take it with any degree of seriousness.
Man, its hard for me to avoid hyperbole when addressing this subject. It troubles me that the most moving Christian-themed movie I've seen in the last twenty years was by fucking Lars von Trier. Ugh, fuck that guy, too. Its just that art is capable of so much more than just trying to build pallid hooks around catch phrases.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:00 PM on March 29, 2016 [169 favorites]
Many years ago, I went to a small atoll in the Marshall Islands called Namdrik. While there, I had to attend a church service. It was in Ebon, which I don't understand, so I was half paying attention until the singing started. When the singing did start, I almost fell out of my seat. Multi-part, gorgeous harmony. It was like hearing the voice of God.
I came back from that trip thinking I'd maybe look into becoming Christian. The first service I went to back in the USA involved a "worship team" that sang bland songs with lyrics that basically amounted to "Jesus. Jesus. Jesuuuusssss." I was so turned off (and frankly kind of insulted) that I never went back.
But I did start pouring over modern Christian music and with a few exceptions found that the bulk of the music was like fifth rate Creed with moronic platitudes in place of lyrics. Obviously, this is subjective, but in my opinion neither the form nor the content was aesthetically pleasing.
I want to contrast this with Sufjan Stevens who, love him or hate him, is a Christian artist who creates pieces that are genuinely musically interesting and lyrics that grapple with issues of faith, ultimately coming down on the side of faith most of the time. This is not meant as an anti-Christian rant - just an anti-bland art rant.
I can't speak for the larger Christian music scene, but I'm in the music world out here and hang out with a bunch of great musicians who play on worship teams. These are some genuinely gifted musicians but they admit when they play during services, they play music that they think is lame. Why? Well, as its been explained to me, they've been asked to play lame music with simplistic lyrics by the various priests and preachers in their lives so the music doesn't "take focus away from the focus on the Word."
OK, so, I look back at the history of classical music in the West. Much of Bach's music, for example, was an aural attempt at creating a bridge up to heaven. If you want to, you can listen to his amazing music and imagine him lifting his arms up to God.
Not like fucking "With Arms Wide Open. Fuck that song.
The music and lyrics in most mainstream white Christian music these days is not focused on making the listeners feel the presence of God (which I think I did on Namdrik or when I listen to a really good performance of liturgical classical music or, heck, sort of even when I listen to 'Will The Circle Be Unbroken' by The Carter Family) but to drill little platitudes into their heads. Its the adult equivalent of those children's songs which admonish you to brush your teeth or look both ways before you cross the street.
To whit, the songs are Christian, but God is not in them.
Now, you look back at the history of any art form that intersected with Christianity and you'll find the same thing. While, yes, the crap has largely been filtered out by time leaving us with the pearls of the past, modern Christian art is rubbish because its reduced to shit like Fireproof where God is a magic panacea for some dude's bullshit porn problems. Part of what makes films like Ben Hur great is that the humans have to do the hard work of making the world better - God sets them on the path and tells them what they need to do but they have to make the choice to do the actual hard work (and make the sacrifices) to make things happen. God doesn't just come in and fix it because one day Ben Hur decides to let God in his heart. Humans in the old bible aren't absolved from their responsibilities just because they inhale some magic Jesus essence. They have to work their asses off.
Much modern Christian art assumes you are too lazy and stupid to do the hard work, so its just going to tell you "hey, say the name Jesus a few times and you're a good person - now go back to being the piece of shit you are in real life. Its ok. You said 'Jesus.'" Not all of it, of course. And, obviously, this is a larger problem across the more entertainment-focused part of the art world.
But, you know, if you've ever had a genuinely transcendent moment while listening to a piece of music or watching a remarkable movie, its hard to go back to "Praise him praise him praise hiiiiiiiiiim" and take it with any degree of seriousness.
Man, its hard for me to avoid hyperbole when addressing this subject. It troubles me that the most moving Christian-themed movie I've seen in the last twenty years was by fucking Lars von Trier. Ugh, fuck that guy, too. Its just that art is capable of so much more than just trying to build pallid hooks around catch phrases.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:00 PM on March 29, 2016 [169 favorites]
my favourite kind of wish fulfilment movies are the parental kind. Even from before I had kids. Movies like Lorenzo's Oil, and the one with Harrison Ford and Brendan Fraser. Where parents go to crazy measures to find cures for previously uncurable diseases
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:00 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:00 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
The wish here being of course that parents have the capacity to protect their kids from every kind of danger
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:03 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:03 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Movies like Lorenzo's Oil, and the one with Harrison Ford and Brendan Fraser. Where parents go to crazy measures to find cures for previously uncurable diseases
Lorenzo's Oil wasn't wish fulfillment, it's based on a true story (albeit with the usual Hollywood embellishments, but the basic story did happen).
posted by Sangermaine at 1:03 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lorenzo's Oil wasn't wish fulfillment, it's based on a true story (albeit with the usual Hollywood embellishments, but the basic story did happen).
posted by Sangermaine at 1:03 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
See my note above – it's for filling the wish to always be able to protect our kids
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:04 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:04 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Joey, imagine how I felt when I learned how many of the best/most tuneful Baptist hymns lifted their tunes from old drinking songs. When they ran out of drinking songs, they were stuck with Maranatha, which pioneered the Bland n' Simple school of hymn.
posted by emjaybee at 1:04 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 1:04 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
> Historically, Christian narratives exist for one purpose: to give glory to God.
That I don't mind so much. But there's a big vein of Christian narrative devoted to establishing that non-believers are all really bad people and seeing that they get theirs in the end. The Left Behind series has an awful lot of that.
There was also a preview I saw (I think it was for The Masked Saint — that's what googling "christian movie wrestler" turns up) where we see a character say "there is no god" while committing an armed robbery, or beating up someone, or something like that. Okay, I'll admit, I don't remember the details, but it was just obvious "these people are horrible, they are threats to you, you are justified in hating them, or maybe even taking further steps". It made my eye twitch and made me glance a bit around the theater to see if people were taking the bait.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:05 PM on March 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
That I don't mind so much. But there's a big vein of Christian narrative devoted to establishing that non-believers are all really bad people and seeing that they get theirs in the end. The Left Behind series has an awful lot of that.
There was also a preview I saw (I think it was for The Masked Saint — that's what googling "christian movie wrestler" turns up) where we see a character say "there is no god" while committing an armed robbery, or beating up someone, or something like that. Okay, I'll admit, I don't remember the details, but it was just obvious "these people are horrible, they are threats to you, you are justified in hating them, or maybe even taking further steps". It made my eye twitch and made me glance a bit around the theater to see if people were taking the bait.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:05 PM on March 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
> BANANAMAN BEGINS
That was 100 cc of nostalgia injected directly into my nostalgia center.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:09 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
That was 100 cc of nostalgia injected directly into my nostalgia center.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:09 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
nobody's talked about my favorite of these from a few months ago: Little Boy,
Previously.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:13 PM on March 29, 2016
Previously.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:13 PM on March 29, 2016
Are there any Mafia movies from an explicitly religious perspective? Those movies are always filled with Christian/Catholic imagery (like the famous Godfather ending) but seemingly from a secular angle. Or a movie about the cartels, with their weird fusion of Catholicism, native imagery, and violence?
posted by Sangermaine at 1:16 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 1:16 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's not mentioned. You're supposed to infer it.
I clearly haven't seen it! But yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Even if we assume they really do intend for him to have a "porn problem", they'd get to it so obliquely that there's absolutely no way to distinguish between the problem being "he has used porn at least once" versus the problem being "porn has created unrealistic expectations in their relationship" or "he's spending too much money on it and it's imperiling them financially" or "he's looking at porn at work and going to get fired for it"--the latter three are all real things modern Christian families have to deal with, but in the sanitized world of movies or books like this, they get the easier version, where all the problems are a lot more solvable.
It's escapism. Even something like Left Behind creates an apocalypse that is somehow more appealing than your real life, because in your real life, your pastor just got caught having an affair with a girl who's in college and you're having a really hard time feeling forgiving, your kid's best friend from youth group just died of an overdose despite being from a good middle-class Christian family where that sort of thing wasn't supposed to happen, you're on the verge of bankruptcy but there's no big easy thing either you or your spouse is spending money on that you can change to save the day.
posted by Sequence at 1:16 PM on March 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
I clearly haven't seen it! But yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Even if we assume they really do intend for him to have a "porn problem", they'd get to it so obliquely that there's absolutely no way to distinguish between the problem being "he has used porn at least once" versus the problem being "porn has created unrealistic expectations in their relationship" or "he's spending too much money on it and it's imperiling them financially" or "he's looking at porn at work and going to get fired for it"--the latter three are all real things modern Christian families have to deal with, but in the sanitized world of movies or books like this, they get the easier version, where all the problems are a lot more solvable.
It's escapism. Even something like Left Behind creates an apocalypse that is somehow more appealing than your real life, because in your real life, your pastor just got caught having an affair with a girl who's in college and you're having a really hard time feeling forgiving, your kid's best friend from youth group just died of an overdose despite being from a good middle-class Christian family where that sort of thing wasn't supposed to happen, you're on the verge of bankruptcy but there's no big easy thing either you or your spouse is spending money on that you can change to save the day.
posted by Sequence at 1:16 PM on March 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Much modern Christian art assumes you are too lazy and stupid to do the hard work, so its just going to tell you "hey, say the name Jesus a few times and you're a good person - now go back to being the piece of shit you are in real life. Its ok. You said 'Jesus.'
It's the difference between wearing your Christianity like a team jersey vs. actually striving to live a Christ-like life. One is easy but meaningless; the other is difficult (let's face it: impossible) but meaningful.
Joey Michaels, that whole comment was as manna from heaven!
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
It's the difference between wearing your Christianity like a team jersey vs. actually striving to live a Christ-like life. One is easy but meaningless; the other is difficult (let's face it: impossible) but meaningful.
Joey Michaels, that whole comment was as manna from heaven!
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
I hope to see this trend continue, if only to see a Dark Knight-styled remake of Willie Aames' BibleMan.
posted by dr_dank at 1:18 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 1:18 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
My mom and her friends seem to largely gravitate to reading books on the basis of wanting to spend time in a simpler world where they know everything will work out. Like, even in fiction aimed at adults, there's a distinct distaste for including too much unsavory content.
There's a certain school of thought that says that all art is supposed to basically rub the audience's nose in the worst elements of life as a way to open their eyes to its existence. This makes a lot of sense when the audience is young, affluent, white, whatever, but there are limitations to it. I don't know your mom and her friends' life situation, but I've noticed that this sort of art is rather less compelling for people who already have their noses rubbed in the worst elements of the world on a daily basis at work, at home, and in the street. Escapism is somewhat understandable for people who actually have something to escape.
It's not that hollywood is ignoring the religious sect, it's that they aren't putting out religious propaganda.
Watching recent efforts like Exodus and Noah, I was struck repeatedly by the ways in which the artistic team behind them was struggling at the limits imposed by the narrative. Exodus in particular reinforced my going theory that what Ridley Scott really wants to do with his time is write exquisite, meticulously crafted historical epics, but he can't get the money for that unless he ties it to something mainstream audiences are very familiar with (the Crusades, Robin Hood, Moses, etc.), and the result is often tremendously flawed. Noah was all over the place because it was trying to do interesting psychological things (doubt, insanity) with a character whose main characteristic in the Bible was his absolute, unwavering faith in his God, which makes him the only sane man in a world gone mad.
They want to do religious material, but they don't want to treat it religiously. Therein lies the conflict, and I think that we may get some really amazing stuff out of that tension down the road. But there's been, and there's going to be, a lot of excruciatingly bad stuff on the way.
Well, as its been explained to me, they've been asked to play lame music with simplistic lyrics by the various priests and preachers in their lives so the music doesn't "take focus away from the focus on the Word."
The fear of artwork as a distraction and encouragement to idolatry goes back to the beginnings of Christianity, and beyond back into Judaism. I feel like it's a constantly eddying current - those boring hymnals were, back when they arrived a couple centuries ago, quite the contentious item.
posted by AdamCSnider at 1:24 PM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
There's a certain school of thought that says that all art is supposed to basically rub the audience's nose in the worst elements of life as a way to open their eyes to its existence. This makes a lot of sense when the audience is young, affluent, white, whatever, but there are limitations to it. I don't know your mom and her friends' life situation, but I've noticed that this sort of art is rather less compelling for people who already have their noses rubbed in the worst elements of the world on a daily basis at work, at home, and in the street. Escapism is somewhat understandable for people who actually have something to escape.
It's not that hollywood is ignoring the religious sect, it's that they aren't putting out religious propaganda.
Watching recent efforts like Exodus and Noah, I was struck repeatedly by the ways in which the artistic team behind them was struggling at the limits imposed by the narrative. Exodus in particular reinforced my going theory that what Ridley Scott really wants to do with his time is write exquisite, meticulously crafted historical epics, but he can't get the money for that unless he ties it to something mainstream audiences are very familiar with (the Crusades, Robin Hood, Moses, etc.), and the result is often tremendously flawed. Noah was all over the place because it was trying to do interesting psychological things (doubt, insanity) with a character whose main characteristic in the Bible was his absolute, unwavering faith in his God, which makes him the only sane man in a world gone mad.
They want to do religious material, but they don't want to treat it religiously. Therein lies the conflict, and I think that we may get some really amazing stuff out of that tension down the road. But there's been, and there's going to be, a lot of excruciatingly bad stuff on the way.
Well, as its been explained to me, they've been asked to play lame music with simplistic lyrics by the various priests and preachers in their lives so the music doesn't "take focus away from the focus on the Word."
The fear of artwork as a distraction and encouragement to idolatry goes back to the beginnings of Christianity, and beyond back into Judaism. I feel like it's a constantly eddying current - those boring hymnals were, back when they arrived a couple centuries ago, quite the contentious item.
posted by AdamCSnider at 1:24 PM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Two things: first, Walden Media was specifically created to make movies with positive and/or Christian themes (per Wikipedia), such as the Narnia movie from a couple of years ago, and "Because of Winn-Dixie" and the like.
Second, the notion of opening a movie studio specifically to target audiences who will go to movies with religion-positive themes reminds me a lot of the new book "Dark Money" by Jane Mayer which describes how wealthy conservatives specifically created foundations and think tanks to gently influence political debate and, eventually, to move public policy. I am not sure whether I am positive or negative on this, just noticing a parallel that intrigues me.
(And I say this as a regular church-going Catholic, with all the complications that that entails.)
posted by wenestvedt at 1:26 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Second, the notion of opening a movie studio specifically to target audiences who will go to movies with religion-positive themes reminds me a lot of the new book "Dark Money" by Jane Mayer which describes how wealthy conservatives specifically created foundations and think tanks to gently influence political debate and, eventually, to move public policy. I am not sure whether I am positive or negative on this, just noticing a parallel that intrigues me.
(And I say this as a regular church-going Catholic, with all the complications that that entails.)
posted by wenestvedt at 1:26 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Along the lines of the complete blindness some Christian films/music have to larger realities, I occasionally work at a major theme park in Orlando, which has a Christian Music Festival.
One of the bands last year tried to sound more open to other opinions and lifestyles, but did it in completely the wrong manner. Towards the end of the band's set, they sang "We Don't Hate Fags." I am sure it was along the thought lines of "hate the sin, love the sinner", but it was an incredibly poor choice of words.
posted by Badgermann at 1:29 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
One of the bands last year tried to sound more open to other opinions and lifestyles, but did it in completely the wrong manner. Towards the end of the band's set, they sang "We Don't Hate Fags." I am sure it was along the thought lines of "hate the sin, love the sinner", but it was an incredibly poor choice of words.
posted by Badgermann at 1:29 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was wondering why the trailer for Miracles from Heaven gave the entire story away. I guess the target crowd is gonna see it no matter what.
I had this discussion with an in-law at Easter dinner who said it was 'such a good movie.' I said I'd already seen it because I watched the trailer and she said that there's a bunch more that isn't in the trailer so I explained what I assumed the additional scenes were and she was amazed I could guess at almost exactly how the whole story played out. That's because it looks like a terrible, predictable movie. Of course she said I should still see it because it's 'such a good movie' so I think you're right on. Some people will see it no matter what.
I have no problem with overtly religious movies. I am a Christian and I saw the preview before I watched Risen, so I am at least somewhat in their target audience, but I do have a problem with wasting my time on horrible, trite, condescending, boring movies. Based on the quotes in the article, they don't seem to be addressing this much.
also how did we get this far without a 'Christ, what an asshole'?
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 1:31 PM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
I had this discussion with an in-law at Easter dinner who said it was 'such a good movie.' I said I'd already seen it because I watched the trailer and she said that there's a bunch more that isn't in the trailer so I explained what I assumed the additional scenes were and she was amazed I could guess at almost exactly how the whole story played out. That's because it looks like a terrible, predictable movie. Of course she said I should still see it because it's 'such a good movie' so I think you're right on. Some people will see it no matter what.
I have no problem with overtly religious movies. I am a Christian and I saw the preview before I watched Risen, so I am at least somewhat in their target audience, but I do have a problem with wasting my time on horrible, trite, condescending, boring movies. Based on the quotes in the article, they don't seem to be addressing this much.
Film industry executives are still trying to find the best ways to pursue religious moviegoers and overcome the enduring perception that the studio system is out of touch with Christians. Movies with biblical themes have generally lacked the star power, financial backing and production quality to compete with secular studio fare.See, I don't care about star power, financial backing, or production quality nearly as much as a decent plot well told. In typical marketing fashion they're throwing darts trying to hit the target market instead of just making a decent product.
also how did we get this far without a 'Christ, what an asshole'?
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 1:31 PM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
FYI, these movies are amazing to watch if only for thier outlandish set decoration. They usually look like a hobby lobby vomited into a mcmansion or rustic woodframe house.
posted by Ferreous at 1:33 PM on March 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 1:33 PM on March 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
While not exactly a christian movie, I've found Evan Almighty a lot worse than Bruce Almighty, because as the original was a decent movie with a simple premise (a guy gets godly powers, as well as godly responsibilities), the sequel seems to much more loaded, in the sense it almost works as a vindication to the "God speaks directly to me" people. It doesn't even try to play an angle where Goodman plays your regular politician who speaks a lot about being a good christian and bible values, while being awful to anyone that isn't rich and white ("that would never happen", the writers probably thought), he's just a regular crook.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:38 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by lmfsilva at 1:38 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
JoeyMichaels, have you ever heard* of the heavy metal masses in the rock church of Helsinki? Namdrik experience if you're inside that church.
*Starts around 1.47 after the priest's little intro in Finnish
posted by infini at 1:39 PM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
*Starts around 1.47 after the priest's little intro in Finnish
posted by infini at 1:39 PM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think the idea that all you have to do is let God into your heart and your problems will be solved go towards the schism between "faith alone" and "faith and works" as the path to salvation.
posted by rmd1023 at 1:41 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 1:41 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is this the thread where I casually note that God's Not Dead 2 is coming out on April Fools' Day?
posted by ckape at 1:41 PM on March 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by ckape at 1:41 PM on March 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I hope to see this trend continue, if only to see a Dark Knight-styled remake of Willie Aames' BibleMan.
Bonus points if they do a Bibleman v Jesus: Dawn of Righteousness where Bibleman and Jesus fight over who's a tougher take-no-prisoners badass when it comes to delivering the message of mercy and forgiveness.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Bonus points if they do a Bibleman v Jesus: Dawn of Righteousness where Bibleman and Jesus fight over who's a tougher take-no-prisoners badass when it comes to delivering the message of mercy and forgiveness.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Is this the thread where I casually note that God's Not Dead 2 is coming out on April Fools' Day?
But how? the lead atheist died...ooops...spoiler alert...
Anyway, when you say "coming out", what does that mean? How would a person sitting at home with an internet connection, a netflix subscription, and an android tv box get their hands on this?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:45 PM on March 29, 2016
But how? the lead atheist died...ooops...spoiler alert...
Anyway, when you say "coming out", what does that mean? How would a person sitting at home with an internet connection, a netflix subscription, and an android tv box get their hands on this?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:45 PM on March 29, 2016
Everyone else who has responded to this is WRONG WRONG WRONG and you should go and see Jupiter Ascending immediately.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:55 PM on March 29
Well yeah- a hyper-intelligent warship belonging to a Fully-Automated Luxury Anarcho-Syndicalist society would say that.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:46 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:55 PM on March 29
Well yeah- a hyper-intelligent warship belonging to a Fully-Automated Luxury Anarcho-Syndicalist society would say that.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:46 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
As a non-believer, one problem I'd have with films like these is that most of them seem to literally end with a deus ex machina; there's a problem, and then (yo) God solves it. The End. This is, theological issues aside, not a compelling narrative.
The believer narrative is different -- the "problem" is not the issue that is being resolved, the problem is the non-/un-believer not having faith in God. Once the person learns to let go and trust in God, then God fixes their issue. The compelling narrative to the believer is "you will be rewarded for believing in God" and "non-believers in your life can be saved!"
posted by fings at 1:47 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The believer narrative is different -- the "problem" is not the issue that is being resolved, the problem is the non-/un-believer not having faith in God. Once the person learns to let go and trust in God, then God fixes their issue. The compelling narrative to the believer is "you will be rewarded for believing in God" and "non-believers in your life can be saved!"
posted by fings at 1:47 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I hope to see this trend continue, if only to see a Dark Knight-styled remake of Willie Aames' BibleMan.
...
Bonus points if they do a Bibleman v Jesus: Dawn of Righteousness where Bibleman and Jesus fight over who's a tougher take-no-prisoners badass when it comes to delivering the message of mercy and forgiveness.
This will only work if there is shit-tons of collateral damage killing thousands of unbelievers who die screaming IF ONLY WE HAD LISTENED TO YOOOUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuu...
Otherwise it's not proper Christian revenge porn.
posted by middleclasstool at 1:48 PM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
...
Bonus points if they do a Bibleman v Jesus: Dawn of Righteousness where Bibleman and Jesus fight over who's a tougher take-no-prisoners badass when it comes to delivering the message of mercy and forgiveness.
This will only work if there is shit-tons of collateral damage killing thousands of unbelievers who die screaming IF ONLY WE HAD LISTENED TO YOOOUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuu...
Otherwise it's not proper Christian revenge porn.
posted by middleclasstool at 1:48 PM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
have you ever heard* of the heavy metal masses in the rock church of Helsinki? Namdrik experience if you're inside that church.
Oh holy shit moving to Helsinki as soon as I raise the funds. That was amazing.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:48 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh holy shit moving to Helsinki as soon as I raise the funds. That was amazing.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:48 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
and in the christian movie heaven is for real there's like 5 shots of the families mailbox that says "BURPO" just to remind you that BURPO is in fact a real name.
posted by Ferreous at 1:52 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 1:52 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is this the thread where I casually note that God's Not Dead 2 is coming out on April Fools' Day?
Coincidence, or a sly Psalm reference?
posted by skymt at 1:54 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Coincidence, or a sly Psalm reference?
posted by skymt at 1:54 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
To whit, the songs are Christian, but God is not in them.
My wife once interviewed a guy from a Christian label in Nashville who said half the bands that demo for him will preface a tune by saying something like "I don't feel like I wrote this. I feel like God wrote this through me." To which, he said, his stock reply after hearing the tune was usually something on the order of "I'm pretty sure The Almighty's capable of better than that."
posted by middleclasstool at 1:56 PM on March 29, 2016 [62 favorites]
My wife once interviewed a guy from a Christian label in Nashville who said half the bands that demo for him will preface a tune by saying something like "I don't feel like I wrote this. I feel like God wrote this through me." To which, he said, his stock reply after hearing the tune was usually something on the order of "I'm pretty sure The Almighty's capable of better than that."
posted by middleclasstool at 1:56 PM on March 29, 2016 [62 favorites]
Strange Interlude: "Bonus points if they do a Bibleman v Jesus: Dawn of Righteousness where Bibleman and Jesus fight over who's a tougher take-no-prisoners badass when it comes to delivering the message of mercy and forgiveness."
Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart?
Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art!
posted by Chrysostom at 2:01 PM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart?
Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art!
posted by Chrysostom at 2:01 PM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Something particularly insightful from the comments of the AV Club article:
By and large, we Christians are very comfortable in this country - both economically and socially - and yet Jesus tells us to take up our cross. The only way to justify a more complacent lifestyle, it is imperative that we look for those areas where we could consider ourselves cultural martyrs. This way, we can convince ourselves that we are, in fact, living defiantly and courageously, as Jesus commanded us to.
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 2:03 PM on March 29, 2016 [40 favorites]
By and large, we Christians are very comfortable in this country - both economically and socially - and yet Jesus tells us to take up our cross. The only way to justify a more complacent lifestyle, it is imperative that we look for those areas where we could consider ourselves cultural martyrs. This way, we can convince ourselves that we are, in fact, living defiantly and courageously, as Jesus commanded us to.
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 2:03 PM on March 29, 2016 [40 favorites]
I know someone who worked for a Christian independent film production company back in the mid-2000s. It was a unsurprising to find out that the executives were pretty much the same sort of scumbags you'd find at any other production company, except they were getting their money from congregations and other religious groups.
Groups sales are a significant part of the marketing plan/push for Christian films, which is something that distinguishes it from some other niche markets.
posted by jimw at 2:04 PM on March 29, 2016
Groups sales are a significant part of the marketing plan/push for Christian films, which is something that distinguishes it from some other niche markets.
posted by jimw at 2:04 PM on March 29, 2016
Are there any Mafia movies from an explicitly religious perspective? Those movies are always filled with Christian/Catholic imagery (like the famous Godfather ending) but seemingly from a secular angle. Or a movie about the cartels, with their weird fusion of Catholicism, native imagery, and violence?
Un prophète sort of does, but the mafia in question is Corsican and the religion is Islam.
I think it was for The Masked Saint — that's what googling "christian movie wrestler" turns up
It doesn't turn up The Reverend "Little Ed" Pembroke? Because there is some truly spiritual and worshipful music right there.
He's got the Devil
In a Bulgarian headlock...
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:26 PM on March 29, 2016
Un prophète sort of does, but the mafia in question is Corsican and the religion is Islam.
I think it was for The Masked Saint — that's what googling "christian movie wrestler" turns up
It doesn't turn up The Reverend "Little Ed" Pembroke? Because there is some truly spiritual and worshipful music right there.
He's got the Devil
In a Bulgarian headlock...
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:26 PM on March 29, 2016
The cynical pandering of it is remarkable.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:38 PM on March 29, 2016
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:38 PM on March 29, 2016
Probably the best of the Affirm Films productions was The Remaining, an apocalyptic horror film released in 2014. It didn't get a lot of press or much push behind its release, which is probably mostly due to its iffy status as both a "faith-based" film and a genre movie. And Kirk Cameron's not in it, so there's that. The biggest star in it is Alexa Vega, formerly of the Spy Kids movies.
Anyone interested in going down this particular rabbit hole is advised to start at the Christian Film Database. There are a lot of mainstream "faith-based" films available on Netflix and other streaming services, but if you want to the smaller independent productions, it's not as easy. But you will be rewarded with highly unique things like demon-possessed pornographic magazine movies (The Familiar, The Lock In), End of Days parkour movies (Leap), a "documentary" about what will happen to American Christians when Communists take over the United States (If Footmen Tire You, What Will Horses Do?), and much, much more bizarre and/or fascinating and/or reprehensible stuff.
posted by tomorrowromance at 2:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Anyone interested in going down this particular rabbit hole is advised to start at the Christian Film Database. There are a lot of mainstream "faith-based" films available on Netflix and other streaming services, but if you want to the smaller independent productions, it's not as easy. But you will be rewarded with highly unique things like demon-possessed pornographic magazine movies (The Familiar, The Lock In), End of Days parkour movies (Leap), a "documentary" about what will happen to American Christians when Communists take over the United States (If Footmen Tire You, What Will Horses Do?), and much, much more bizarre and/or fascinating and/or reprehensible stuff.
posted by tomorrowromance at 2:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I wish some enterprising young studio exec would greenlight a series of linked-universe films (in the vein of the MCU) drawing upon the works of Jack Chick.
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:58 PM on March 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:58 PM on March 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I wish some enterprising young studio exec would greenlight a series of linked-universe films (in the vein of the MCU) drawing upon the works of Jack Chick.
I would go watch a film adaptation of The Last Generation multiple times.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:03 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would go watch a film adaptation of The Last Generation multiple times.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:03 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Kirk Cameron’s protagonist in Kendrick’s Fireproof apparently has a crippling porn addiction, but the movie’s idea of porn is nothing more than an innocuous pop-up ad.
posted by Bob Regular at 3:18 PM on March 29, 2016
posted by Bob Regular at 3:18 PM on March 29, 2016
I really liked Noah.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:31 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:31 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I want to contrast this with Sufjan Stevens who, love him or hate him, is a Christian artist who creates pieces that are genuinely musically interesting and lyrics that grapple with issues of faith, ultimately coming down on the side of faith most of the time.
I'm about as atheist as a clone army of Daniel Dennetts reciting Thus Spoke Zarathustra around a pile of burning Bibles. The very last thing in the universe I would expect to love is a guy playing a banjo and singing earnestly about his love for Christ. But goddamn do I love Seven Swans.
posted by dephlogisticated at 3:34 PM on March 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
I'm about as atheist as a clone army of Daniel Dennetts reciting Thus Spoke Zarathustra around a pile of burning Bibles. The very last thing in the universe I would expect to love is a guy playing a banjo and singing earnestly about his love for Christ. But goddamn do I love Seven Swans.
posted by dephlogisticated at 3:34 PM on March 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
Anyone who wants to see a live-action adaptation of Jack Chick tracts should watch Satan Hates You immediately.
posted by tomorrowromance at 3:45 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tomorrowromance at 3:45 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Despite being not at all Christian, "To Be Alone With You" is still one of my favorite songs ever. There's something about the intimacy and struggle with which Sufjan Stevens writes about Jesus and faith that's immensely compelling to me. Seven Swans is just perfect.
posted by yasaman at 3:46 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 3:46 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
OK, so, I look back at the history of classical music in the West. Much of Bach's music, for example, was an aural attempt at creating a bridge up to heaven. If you want to, you can listen to his amazing music and imagine him lifting his arms up to God.
There were many, many churches where Johann Sebastian Bach wasn't working even when he was alive. Most of them, even.
There is modern religious classical/art music. Krzysztof Penderecki, Henryk Górecki, John Tavener, Sofia Gubaidulina, Karl Jenkins, Arvo Pärt, James MacMillan, Nico Muhly, Kentaro Sato (all living or recently deceased) have each written numerous significant liturgical/religious pieces.
I don't know how much of this has been (or was even written to be) performed during a service, but the same can be said of most of the works of Bach, including almost everything bring him up evokes.
posted by mountmccabe at 3:50 PM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
There were many, many churches where Johann Sebastian Bach wasn't working even when he was alive. Most of them, even.
There is modern religious classical/art music. Krzysztof Penderecki, Henryk Górecki, John Tavener, Sofia Gubaidulina, Karl Jenkins, Arvo Pärt, James MacMillan, Nico Muhly, Kentaro Sato (all living or recently deceased) have each written numerous significant liturgical/religious pieces.
I don't know how much of this has been (or was even written to be) performed during a service, but the same can be said of most of the works of Bach, including almost everything bring him up evokes.
posted by mountmccabe at 3:50 PM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
A live action Jack Chick film would be a crossover hit. To American fundamentalists, it would be a life-affirming film which would show them in triumph. For secular audiences, it would be a bleak, hopeless horror film in which the characters slowly realize the universe is ruled by a vengeful and petty God who will consume their souls with absolute torment as judgement for the most petty of offenses.
posted by honestcoyote at 3:56 PM on March 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by honestcoyote at 3:56 PM on March 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
I don't know how much of this has been (or was even written to be) performed during a service, but the same can be said of most of the works of Bach
Sure, but even Sacred Harp singing (which is as "popular" as liturgical music comes) is far better than the new stuff.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sure, but even Sacred Harp singing (which is as "popular" as liturgical music comes) is far better than the new stuff.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:57 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
For secular audiences, it would be a bleak, hopeless horror film in which the characters slowly realize the universe is ruled by a vengeful and petty God who will consume their souls with absolute torment as judgement for the most petty of offenses.
So, basically Batman vs. Superman.
(N.B. I have not actually seen this movie.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
So, basically Batman vs. Superman.
(N.B. I have not actually seen this movie.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Because the Nazgul riding their wingéd beasts would have destroyed them. It's like you guys didn't pay attention in Sunday School!
They were dawdling over second breakfast.
posted by scalefree at 4:46 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
They were dawdling over second breakfast.
posted by scalefree at 4:46 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
> The believer narrative is different -- the "problem" is not the issue that is being resolved, the problem is the non-/un-believer not having faith in God. Once the person learns to let go and trust in God, then God fixes their issue. The compelling narrative to the believer is "you will be rewarded for believing in God" and "non-believers in your life can be saved!"
That's true; I do remember seeing a Christian film set in a future where the religion had been outlawed and a couple of believers had been thrown in prison. The plot, such as it was, consisted entirely of the prisoners convincing a guard to convert and then the three of them held hands and were raptured or whatever up and out of the jail.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:51 PM on March 29, 2016
That's true; I do remember seeing a Christian film set in a future where the religion had been outlawed and a couple of believers had been thrown in prison. The plot, such as it was, consisted entirely of the prisoners convincing a guard to convert and then the three of them held hands and were raptured or whatever up and out of the jail.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:51 PM on March 29, 2016
Hey I saw that one, set 2000 years ago. It's set in the Roman Empire where Christianity is outlawed and Peter is in prison. He converts the guard to Christianity, with the help of the guard's wife who turns out to be a secret Christian herself. It's on Netflix. It's called Apostle Peter and the Last Supper.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:29 PM on March 29, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:29 PM on March 29, 2016
It gives Brad Jones more to talk about, so I am ok with it!
posted by soakingbook at 5:36 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by soakingbook at 5:36 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
“Is Evangelical Christianity the Wizard behind the Curtain of America’s Moral and Spiritual Decline?” Chris Kratzer, Internet Monk, 12 August 2015
posted by ob1quixote at 5:48 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 5:48 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Elevator pitch for a Christian movie:
In 1841, Søren Kierkegaard and Mikhail Bakunin meet when both attend Schelling's lecture on irony. They then fight on wires over the rooftops of Berlin for 90 minutes. Kierkegaard wins; a light shines from above; a defeated Bakunin slinks away, disgraced. After the credits, a stinger: Regine Olsen, Søren's one true love, steps hesitantly toward a carriage. The door opens. A hand extends toward her. The camera pulls back to reveal the leering, bearded face of Friedrich Engels. FIN
posted by BitterOldPunk at 5:53 PM on March 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
In 1841, Søren Kierkegaard and Mikhail Bakunin meet when both attend Schelling's lecture on irony. They then fight on wires over the rooftops of Berlin for 90 minutes. Kierkegaard wins; a light shines from above; a defeated Bakunin slinks away, disgraced. After the credits, a stinger: Regine Olsen, Søren's one true love, steps hesitantly toward a carriage. The door opens. A hand extends toward her. The camera pulls back to reveal the leering, bearded face of Friedrich Engels. FIN
posted by BitterOldPunk at 5:53 PM on March 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
There is modern religious classical/art music. Krzysztof Penderecki, Henryk Górecki, John Tavener, Sofia Gubaidulina, Karl Jenkins, Arvo Pärt, James MacMillan, Nico Muhly, Kentaro Sato (all living or recently deceased) have each written numerous significant liturgical/religious pieces.
I don't know how much of this has been (or was even written to be) performed during a service, but the same can be said of most of the works of Bach, including almost everything bring him up evokes.
Similarly, there is modern faith-affirming film, even outright Christian film that is simply not coded as such to Christian/religious audiences and thus flies under their radars. Terence Malick most obviously comes to mind, and his mysticism is in a firm Judeochristian tradition. So does, say, Aronofsky's The Fountain. The Life of Pi is overtly faith-affirming and that swept the Oscars. There is a rich vein of transcendental film that doesn't hit you over the head and is more concerned with asking questions than shouting answers. If you're the sort of Christian that is more concerned with being provoked with questions and seeing where you stand on them, than you are the sort that needs your worldview to be affirmed loudly, then you're not quite in the demographic for Miracles From Heaven, but some of the best films and most intriguing directors might speak to you.
posted by naju at 6:02 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't know how much of this has been (or was even written to be) performed during a service, but the same can be said of most of the works of Bach, including almost everything bring him up evokes.
Similarly, there is modern faith-affirming film, even outright Christian film that is simply not coded as such to Christian/religious audiences and thus flies under their radars. Terence Malick most obviously comes to mind, and his mysticism is in a firm Judeochristian tradition. So does, say, Aronofsky's The Fountain. The Life of Pi is overtly faith-affirming and that swept the Oscars. There is a rich vein of transcendental film that doesn't hit you over the head and is more concerned with asking questions than shouting answers. If you're the sort of Christian that is more concerned with being provoked with questions and seeing where you stand on them, than you are the sort that needs your worldview to be affirmed loudly, then you're not quite in the demographic for Miracles From Heaven, but some of the best films and most intriguing directors might speak to you.
posted by naju at 6:02 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Those films aren't designed to pander to evangelicals and make them feel good about themselves, though.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:09 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:09 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the other end of the spectrum Revelation Road is some Sharknado-level absurdist cinema.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:11 PM on March 29, 2016
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:11 PM on March 29, 2016
When do we get Pagan wish-fulfillment stories?
Well, they made a whole trilogy about Thor.
Also, Groot might be a dryad.
posted by A dead Quaker at 6:30 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, they made a whole trilogy about Thor.
Also, Groot might be a dryad.
posted by A dead Quaker at 6:30 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
"1841, Søren Kierkegaard and Mikhail Bakunin meet when both attend Schelling's lecture on irony. They t..."
See, by Bakunin/meet/both, I see the fight coming and think of starchy collars and the smell of hay.
Needs more Swedish match sellers.
A scene were the match seller heals the tourist but is turned away at the door for selling matches.
posted by clavdivs at 6:40 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
See, by Bakunin/meet/both, I see the fight coming and think of starchy collars and the smell of hay.
Needs more Swedish match sellers.
A scene were the match seller heals the tourist but is turned away at the door for selling matches.
posted by clavdivs at 6:40 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The difference between evangelical-market films and "good" films with religious themes is, to me, the difference between catechism and theology. Evangelical-market films, like catechism, are there to instruct you what to believe, show you the punishments for those who fail to do so -- and the rewards for those who do. To this end it presents a simplified narrative that prunes out a lot of complexity. "Good" religious films are much more about wrestling with a theological question (there are many! they are complex! these are interesting conflicts to investigate in film!) or showing you what a particular person believes -- and often these latter are very personal films where the character's beliefs mirror the filmmaker's and the filmmaker is presenting his own testimony through the film, but much more as a personal story and much less as a didactic lesson. These "good" religious films are much more theological than evangelical-market films and much more HUMANE because they're a lot more interested in seriously wrestling with the human implications of faith, instead of tidily wrapping it up in a bow where you believe, things go right, happy ending. (And this is why Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ was a catechetical film that didn't catch on with mainstream audiences, but The Last Temptation of Christ DID interest a broader audience, because it wasn't just a teaching film, it was exploring questions and implications of the beliefs that Gibson just wanted to teach.)
I'd include in "good" religious films things from the profound (Babette's Feast, Lilies of the Field) to the silly-but-serious (Dogma, Saved!) to the small and personal (Martin Sheen starred in a charming, lovely little film called "The Way" directed by his son (Estevez) about a father who, after the death of his son, continues his son's pilgrimmage on the Camino de Santiago). They all ask you to engage in someone's story, or to investigate an interesting question, or to think about a problem from a particular point of view. These are all artistic, narratively interesting, humane tasks to engage in. You come out of them going "That was really good!" or "That was really moving," or "That was kind-of a mess of a movie but the plot about so-and-so's doubt was really interesting." These are of interest to a wider market because they're fundamentally artistic endeavors presenting particular points of view that, even if we don't share, we can be like, "Hey, yeah, I see why your character thought that," and come to a deeper, more sympathetic understanding of our fellow man.
These evangelical-market films, OTOH, are fundamentally the same thing as sitting through a drivers' ed video and learning how to make safe left turns. It's not there to engage you or tell you a story or expanding your mind; it's there to tell you What To Do and How To Do It Properly, and all of the exciting car-crash scenes are tacked on to try to keep your attention. It's just Sunday School on a movie screen. The point is not to share art with you; the point is for you to parrot back the lesson. If you're not already committed to the lesson, there's not really any reason to see the movie, because it doesn't want to engage with you. It's not for you, it's for the students in the class.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:26 PM on March 29, 2016 [38 favorites]
I'd include in "good" religious films things from the profound (Babette's Feast, Lilies of the Field) to the silly-but-serious (Dogma, Saved!) to the small and personal (Martin Sheen starred in a charming, lovely little film called "The Way" directed by his son (Estevez) about a father who, after the death of his son, continues his son's pilgrimmage on the Camino de Santiago). They all ask you to engage in someone's story, or to investigate an interesting question, or to think about a problem from a particular point of view. These are all artistic, narratively interesting, humane tasks to engage in. You come out of them going "That was really good!" or "That was really moving," or "That was kind-of a mess of a movie but the plot about so-and-so's doubt was really interesting." These are of interest to a wider market because they're fundamentally artistic endeavors presenting particular points of view that, even if we don't share, we can be like, "Hey, yeah, I see why your character thought that," and come to a deeper, more sympathetic understanding of our fellow man.
These evangelical-market films, OTOH, are fundamentally the same thing as sitting through a drivers' ed video and learning how to make safe left turns. It's not there to engage you or tell you a story or expanding your mind; it's there to tell you What To Do and How To Do It Properly, and all of the exciting car-crash scenes are tacked on to try to keep your attention. It's just Sunday School on a movie screen. The point is not to share art with you; the point is for you to parrot back the lesson. If you're not already committed to the lesson, there's not really any reason to see the movie, because it doesn't want to engage with you. It's not for you, it's for the students in the class.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:26 PM on March 29, 2016 [38 favorites]
To whit, the songs are Christian, but God is not in them.
Yeah, but art's kinda subjective. Likely every boring "jesus, jesus, jesus" song you sniffed your nose at has had someone cry tears of real joy over. And not just because it ended. My neice is forever posting christian rock songs to fb that have "changed her life" and "brought her closer than ever to God." There's just no accounting for taste. My mom would love the hell out of a boring "jesus jesus jesus" song, hold her hand to her heart and proclaim it beautiful, but swears Areatha ruined music by yelling all the time instead of singing. *dramatic sigh* My childhood was hard. It's a miracle I grew up to be such a well-adjusted person.
posted by greermahoney at 7:32 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, but art's kinda subjective. Likely every boring "jesus, jesus, jesus" song you sniffed your nose at has had someone cry tears of real joy over. And not just because it ended. My neice is forever posting christian rock songs to fb that have "changed her life" and "brought her closer than ever to God." There's just no accounting for taste. My mom would love the hell out of a boring "jesus jesus jesus" song, hold her hand to her heart and proclaim it beautiful, but swears Areatha ruined music by yelling all the time instead of singing. *dramatic sigh* My childhood was hard. It's a miracle I grew up to be such a well-adjusted person.
posted by greermahoney at 7:32 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I sing in a rocking praise band at an otherwise ordinary episcopal church. I don't listen to Christian music, despite being a sincere Christian. I find most of the music a little boring and facile, but sometimes when we play together I get hit by something shivery. And our congregation obviously gets something out of the experience. So I guess bad art can serve a greater good.
posted by Biblio at 7:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Biblio at 7:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think the best and most beautiful movie I've ever seen about Christianity is Of Gods and Men, a dramatization of the real life story of Roman Catholic monks living in Algeria who decided to stay with and continue helping their Muslim neighbors when the country became dangerous to foreigners during a civil war.
posted by straight at 7:52 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by straight at 7:52 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
My dad sees every.single.one of these movies. My dad and aunt go to a movie about once a week...about a year ago I noticed they were seeing more and more of these Christian films. Part of that is just that my aunt does not care for R-rated movies. My dad (who is schizophrenic with a jc/god fixation) is hilarious with his reviews of these movies. Most of the time he just says, "eh, it was an okay way to spend a couple hours" but occasionally he'll say, "that was bad." Dad's ratings of mainstream movies pretty much consist of, "that was good"/"that was good, you would like it"/"Nicole Kidman is hot stuff." It's hilarious to me that he will call some of these Christian movies bad because I can only remember him saying, "That was horrible. What a waste of time" about one movie, ever. That movie was Van Helsing, and well, he wasn't wrong.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:28 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:28 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
big budget movies, like the recent Noah movie
that's a Jewish film! My evangelical Christian mother came back complaining they had added all this non-biblical stuff -- but it's all from the Midrash.
posted by jb at 9:14 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
that's a Jewish film! My evangelical Christian mother came back complaining they had added all this non-biblical stuff -- but it's all from the Midrash.
posted by jb at 9:14 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, Arranged is lovely, but not really a film about faith. It's more about culture -- G-d isn't really discussed, and certainly takes no action. And the turning point of the film isn't about religious revelation.
posted by jb at 9:16 PM on March 29, 2016
posted by jb at 9:16 PM on March 29, 2016
I would pay money to watch a fundie congregation ponder Black Robe or Breaking the Waves.
posted by benzenedream at 9:54 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 9:54 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Of Gods And Men was outstanding, straight. Definitely seconded.
posted by asterix at 9:57 PM on March 29, 2016
posted by asterix at 9:57 PM on March 29, 2016
It's Catholic and it's French, so the evangelicals probably wouldn't even consider it "Christian," but Ainsi soient-ils (Thy will be done, a.k.a. The Churchmen) transcends the genre on every level. It follows a group of first-year seminary students. There are some cliched moments with the Church hierarchy, but the conflicts among the students are mostly internal conflicts within the soul. It's a moving series, even for those of us who do not accept Catholic dogma at all.
The movies they discuss in the article sound like shit, but they also sound more like propaganda tools than honest movies from a faith-based perspective.
posted by kanewai at 10:38 PM on March 29, 2016
The movies they discuss in the article sound like shit, but they also sound more like propaganda tools than honest movies from a faith-based perspective.
posted by kanewai at 10:38 PM on March 29, 2016
I think Calvary is a pretty good recent Christian-themed movie. (It doesn't compare to Of Gods and Men, which is in a league of its own, but it's a good intelligent film).
posted by Aravis76 at 11:39 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Aravis76 at 11:39 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh man, I am sitting here wracking my brain trying to remember some of the movies that came out when I was growing up many moons ago. The only two that I can recall by name are Joni (about a woman who gets paralyzed in a diving accident and learns to draw with pens held in her mouth and her faith in Jesus helps) and The Cross And The Switchblade, which was a pretty good book and I know I saw the film but can't remember a thing about it other than it had Erik Estrada in it.
Joni was interesting because it had actual Joni playing herself in the movie, and it's not a bad performance. It's not a good movie, in many ways feels a lot like a 1970s Movie Of The Week television movie, but it was a definite forerunner of these more modern movies.
These sorts of movies have been being made for ages, although maybe the new thing is that there is a better distribution network for them now than there used to be? I remember more than a couple of the movies that came out during my middle and high school years were only brought to an actual movie theater in town if a certain number of local churches banded together and basically marketed the movie to their congregations heavily enough to give the movie an audience for the week it was in town, or something. Others were brought in for one or two night Roadshow touring exhibition, meaning basically someone who either produced or directed the movie was driving around the country with the print in his trunk. Often those movies were shown in church fellowship halls.
Man, I wish I could remember the names of more of these movies. There was one, I have this odd memory, that came to the movie theater and did so much business the first week it was held over for a second, and then a third... I think it might have played 5 weeks before it left town. It was one of those weird "this became a hit in this town" sort of events. No clue what the movie was, though. I haven't even thought about these kinds of movies for years.
Thanks for posting!
posted by hippybear at 12:18 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Joni was interesting because it had actual Joni playing herself in the movie, and it's not a bad performance. It's not a good movie, in many ways feels a lot like a 1970s Movie Of The Week television movie, but it was a definite forerunner of these more modern movies.
These sorts of movies have been being made for ages, although maybe the new thing is that there is a better distribution network for them now than there used to be? I remember more than a couple of the movies that came out during my middle and high school years were only brought to an actual movie theater in town if a certain number of local churches banded together and basically marketed the movie to their congregations heavily enough to give the movie an audience for the week it was in town, or something. Others were brought in for one or two night Roadshow touring exhibition, meaning basically someone who either produced or directed the movie was driving around the country with the print in his trunk. Often those movies were shown in church fellowship halls.
Man, I wish I could remember the names of more of these movies. There was one, I have this odd memory, that came to the movie theater and did so much business the first week it was held over for a second, and then a third... I think it might have played 5 weeks before it left town. It was one of those weird "this became a hit in this town" sort of events. No clue what the movie was, though. I haven't even thought about these kinds of movies for years.
Thanks for posting!
posted by hippybear at 12:18 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is there money in faith-based films?
Well, The Asylum (Zoombies, coming soon to a video store near you!) has a spin off: Faith Films.... so, if you have been wondering what Kevin Sorbo has been up to lately...
posted by Mezentian at 2:10 AM on March 30, 2016
Well, The Asylum (Zoombies, coming soon to a video store near you!) has a spin off: Faith Films.... so, if you have been wondering what Kevin Sorbo has been up to lately...
posted by Mezentian at 2:10 AM on March 30, 2016
I am glad that "Calvary" got a mention already.
Similar to what Eyebrows M. says, there are films that are thoughtful or mere movies that recite familiar catechism, and I know which kind I prefer.
posted by wenestvedt at 3:15 AM on March 30, 2016
Similar to what Eyebrows M. says, there are films that are thoughtful or mere movies that recite familiar catechism, and I know which kind I prefer.
posted by wenestvedt at 3:15 AM on March 30, 2016
I would pay money to watch a fundie congregation ponder Black Robe or Breaking the Waves.
posted by benzenedream
Or Jesus of Montreal?
posted by jb at 6:18 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by benzenedream
Or Jesus of Montreal?
posted by jb at 6:18 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Even when I was a very earnest and sincere believer I never liked this stuff. It always felt condescending and hollow. On the other hand, now as an unbeliever I still tear up when I listen to Arvo Pärt's I am the True Vine .
There's beauty in the yearning and search of the religious mind. When expressed honestly and without malice it's as beautiful as any art. Because it's the product of another fellow human.
Trouble is, these things usually don't have mass appeal. Sufjan Stevens isn't profitable the way Kirk Cameron is.
posted by Doleful Creature at 6:57 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's beauty in the yearning and search of the religious mind. When expressed honestly and without malice it's as beautiful as any art. Because it's the product of another fellow human.
Trouble is, these things usually don't have mass appeal. Sufjan Stevens isn't profitable the way Kirk Cameron is.
posted by Doleful Creature at 6:57 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also I don't think Cameron is earnestly searching for anything.
posted by Doleful Creature at 6:59 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Doleful Creature at 6:59 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also I don't think Cameron is earnestly searching for anything.
If you're already married, there's no virtue in continuing to earnestly search for true love.
posted by straight at 7:05 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you're already married, there's no virtue in continuing to earnestly search for true love.
posted by straight at 7:05 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
He's searching for a better analogy than the banana.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:12 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 7:12 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
The banana isn't an analogy; Cameron thinks it's evidence.
posted by straight at 9:12 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 9:12 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
The only two that I can recall by name are Joni (about a woman who gets paralyzed in a diving accident and learns to draw with pens held in her mouth and her faith in Jesus helps) and The Cross And The Switchblade
Hey, I saw Joni Eareckson AND Nicky Cruz (of the Cross and the Switchblade) do appearances at churches in Nova Scotia in the 90s!
This stuff puts me right back into that world that has stuff like Christian Nintendo games and the comic book Hansi, the Girl who Loved the Swastica
posted by beau jackson at 9:16 AM on March 30, 2016
Hey, I saw Joni Eareckson AND Nicky Cruz (of the Cross and the Switchblade) do appearances at churches in Nova Scotia in the 90s!
This stuff puts me right back into that world that has stuff like Christian Nintendo games and the comic book Hansi, the Girl who Loved the Swastica
posted by beau jackson at 9:16 AM on March 30, 2016
Left Behind: The Story of My Non-Dominant Buttock
posted by freecellwizard at 9:31 AM on March 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 9:31 AM on March 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
I still tear up when I listen to Arvo Pärt's I am the True Vine
Arvo Pärt could make me cry over a rendition of Achy Breaky Heart. He's just that good. (but I am the kind of person that can be moved to tears through music).
Interestingly, I never really liked Sufjan, except for his absolutely gorgeous Christmas albums. I always felt like the music was very pretentious, which is absolutely my own opinion, I have no knowledge of him as a person.
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:09 PM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Arvo Pärt could make me cry over a rendition of Achy Breaky Heart. He's just that good. (but I am the kind of person that can be moved to tears through music).
Interestingly, I never really liked Sufjan, except for his absolutely gorgeous Christmas albums. I always felt like the music was very pretentious, which is absolutely my own opinion, I have no knowledge of him as a person.
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:09 PM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait. What is this Episcopal church with a praise band?
posted by persona au gratin at 4:41 PM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by persona au gratin at 4:41 PM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
And some catechism is lovely prose--e.g. Luther's.
posted by persona au gratin at 4:44 PM on March 30, 2016
posted by persona au gratin at 4:44 PM on March 30, 2016
All I know is I went to see The Force Awakens and there was a poster advertising that God's Not Dead 2 would be released "4/1/2016" and I said "Someone is trolling somebody else, but I'm not sure who."
posted by Scattercat at 11:40 PM on March 30, 2016
posted by Scattercat at 11:40 PM on March 30, 2016
I'M A CHRISTIAN AND I HATE CHRISTIAN MOVIES
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:56 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:56 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
My wife grew up in an evangelical household so she got lot of this style of bland Christian feel good films growing up. She hates them with such a passion now that it is kind of funny. I think largely because they would be used interchangeable in youth group with what she labels as Christian feel bad movies. These would be the biblical prophecy / going to hell / apocalypse movies (a Christian genre I like) – A Thief in the Night in particular loomed large in her nightmares for years. These days my mother in law has softened and her favorites are the blandly Christian Christmas TV movies. She can watch them any time of year and adores them! I think I’ve seen the Christmas Shoes more times than I care to. Sadly, she does not like the ones about pets finding their owners a mate on Christmas - which is my favorite Christmas genre.
A nominally Christian film and a particular favorite of mine is Megiddo: The Omega Code 2 - co-directed by Australian genre director Brian Trenchard-Smith (Stunt Rock) and featuring Udo Kier, Franco Nero, R. Lee Ermey (as the US president!), Michael York, and Michael Biehn. B-movie heaven right there. That Parkour End Times movie mentioned above sounded great so I was doubly pleased, as someone who grew up Catholic, to discover that not only is it an End Times film with Parkour but an ANTI-CATHOLIC Parkour End Times movie. Pakour vs. the Papists!
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:36 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
A nominally Christian film and a particular favorite of mine is Megiddo: The Omega Code 2 - co-directed by Australian genre director Brian Trenchard-Smith (Stunt Rock) and featuring Udo Kier, Franco Nero, R. Lee Ermey (as the US president!), Michael York, and Michael Biehn. B-movie heaven right there. That Parkour End Times movie mentioned above sounded great so I was doubly pleased, as someone who grew up Catholic, to discover that not only is it an End Times film with Parkour but an ANTI-CATHOLIC Parkour End Times movie. Pakour vs. the Papists!
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:36 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Above there were some requests for the Pagan equivalent of these Christian dramas. The question piqued my interest so I starting thinking about this - I can name loads where the bad guys are the Pagans but not many where they are painted in a positive light. The original Wicker Man is the obvious suggestion but I dug a bit deeper. So if people don't mind the derail here's what I came up with: Last Keepers (pretty positive Pagan family film), the animated film Secret of the Kells, Apprentice to Murder (Donald Sutherland is a shaman in Pennsylvania), Season of the Witch [1972] (bored housewife turns to witchcraft for fulfillment), Sorceress [1987] (a 13th Century priest takes on a wood witch), Bell, Book and Candle (Kim Novak gives up her powers for love...), Eye of the Devil (thriller about Paganism on a vineyard in France), Legend of Hillbilly John (wandering singer/warlock takes on evil in Appalachia). For TV - the Good Witch series (family friendly film about a witch trying to live side by side with Christians), Robin of Sherwood? Moon Stallion? Children of the Stones? Elidor?
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:41 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:41 PM on March 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sadly, she does not like the ones about pets finding their owners a mate on Christmas - which is my favorite Christmas genre.
Examples, please.
This thread led me to watching the trailer for Gods Not Dead 2 and YouTube showed me an ad for Church's Chicken beforehand. Well played, YouTube, well played.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:34 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Examples, please.
This thread led me to watching the trailer for Gods Not Dead 2 and YouTube showed me an ad for Church's Chicken beforehand. Well played, YouTube, well played.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:34 PM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Megiddo: The Omega Code 2 - co-directed by Australian genre director Brian Trenchard-Smith (Stunt Rock) and featuring Udo Kier, Franco Nero, R. Lee Ermey (as the US president!), Michael York, and Michael Biehn.
That's one Karen Black away from being the greatest movie ever.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:48 AM on April 1, 2016
That's one Karen Black away from being the greatest movie ever.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:48 AM on April 1, 2016
That's one Karen Black away from being the greatest movie ever.
That reminds me of my favorite Mormon movie, featuring the awesome Karen Black, Plan 10 From Outer Space. It's a light-hearted sci-fi comedy about some of the more out there aspects of Mormon history and theology.
Examples, please.
Enjoy:
A Christmas Wedding Tail
Cinnamon
A Golden Christmas
Not a Christmas movie but it has a dog that helps his owner find love:
Gabe the Cupid Dog
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:14 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
That reminds me of my favorite Mormon movie, featuring the awesome Karen Black, Plan 10 From Outer Space. It's a light-hearted sci-fi comedy about some of the more out there aspects of Mormon history and theology.
Examples, please.
Enjoy:
A Christmas Wedding Tail
Cinnamon
A Golden Christmas
Not a Christmas movie but it has a dog that helps his owner find love:
Gabe the Cupid Dog
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:14 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'M A CHRISTIAN AND I HATE CHRISTIAN MOVIES
Yep.
"Whoever thinks that to engage in a disputation for refuting [a scientific] theory is a religious duty harms religion and weakens it. For these matters rest on demonstrations – geometrical and arithmetical – that leave no room for doubt. Thus, when one who studies these demonstrations and ascertains their proofs... is told that this is contrary to religion, [such an individual] will not suspect this [science, but] only religion. The harm inflicted on religion by those who defend it in a way not proper to it is greater than [the harm caused by] those who attack it in the way proper to it. As it has been said: 'A rational foe is better than an ignorant friend.'" - Abu Hamid al-Ghazali, "The Incoherence of the Philosophers," ~ 1085 C.E.
posted by koeselitz at 9:07 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yep.
"Whoever thinks that to engage in a disputation for refuting [a scientific] theory is a religious duty harms religion and weakens it. For these matters rest on demonstrations – geometrical and arithmetical – that leave no room for doubt. Thus, when one who studies these demonstrations and ascertains their proofs... is told that this is contrary to religion, [such an individual] will not suspect this [science, but] only religion. The harm inflicted on religion by those who defend it in a way not proper to it is greater than [the harm caused by] those who attack it in the way proper to it. As it has been said: 'A rational foe is better than an ignorant friend.'" - Abu Hamid al-Ghazali, "The Incoherence of the Philosophers," ~ 1085 C.E.
posted by koeselitz at 9:07 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
"And some catechism is lovely prose--e.g. Luther's."
I have no beef with catechism-as-catechism. It's a useful tool and, yes, can be quite beautifully written. The problem is that some Christians find it TERRIFYING when anyone wants to step beyond the catechism and make religious art, or religious music, or religious films. (Or, for that matter, do theology on hard questions.) They want easy, clean answers they can recite, with no messy questions that step beyond it. Catechism used in that fashion ceases to be a useful tool and a starting point, and becomes a blunt instrument for shutting down conversation.
(And, incidentally, makes people resentful about the catechism because instead of a reference-tool summary to get us all starting from the same place, it becomes the be-all, end-all of all possible conversations, and anyone with half a brain quickly realizes that the single-paragraph summary of High Complex Question X is not all there is to say about it. But when you're constantly told "This is all there is to be said, now sit down and shut up," you get real resentful real quick. Luther of all people would have been furious about that sort of thing, since dude wrote ceaselessly and expansively on massive questions of theology going well beyond what's contained in his catechism, and he would have been relatively horrified that people were stopping at the catechism or -- worse -- demanding others stop at the catechism because all his other thinking was just too scary. Or, worse even than that, making religious art suck because it had to so strictly adhere to catechetical standards that there was no room for mystery. (Luther liked him some art.) Catechism is a summary and a teaching tool for beginners! It's not the body of theology itself.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:41 AM on April 1, 2016
I have no beef with catechism-as-catechism. It's a useful tool and, yes, can be quite beautifully written. The problem is that some Christians find it TERRIFYING when anyone wants to step beyond the catechism and make religious art, or religious music, or religious films. (Or, for that matter, do theology on hard questions.) They want easy, clean answers they can recite, with no messy questions that step beyond it. Catechism used in that fashion ceases to be a useful tool and a starting point, and becomes a blunt instrument for shutting down conversation.
(And, incidentally, makes people resentful about the catechism because instead of a reference-tool summary to get us all starting from the same place, it becomes the be-all, end-all of all possible conversations, and anyone with half a brain quickly realizes that the single-paragraph summary of High Complex Question X is not all there is to say about it. But when you're constantly told "This is all there is to be said, now sit down and shut up," you get real resentful real quick. Luther of all people would have been furious about that sort of thing, since dude wrote ceaselessly and expansively on massive questions of theology going well beyond what's contained in his catechism, and he would have been relatively horrified that people were stopping at the catechism or -- worse -- demanding others stop at the catechism because all his other thinking was just too scary. Or, worse even than that, making religious art suck because it had to so strictly adhere to catechetical standards that there was no room for mystery. (Luther liked him some art.) Catechism is a summary and a teaching tool for beginners! It's not the body of theology itself.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:41 AM on April 1, 2016
Incidentally, I was sitting here today and musing on the sheer stupidity of even the name of the film "Miracles from Heaven." One assumes that that's where "miracles" are supposed to come from, so it seems redundant – but then, wouldn't it be great if there ended up being a sequel called "Miracles from HELL"?
posted by koeselitz at 3:05 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by koeselitz at 3:05 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that's Slayer's next album.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:27 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:27 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would pay money to watch a fundie congregation ponder Black Robe or Breaking the Waves.
posted by benzenedream
Or Jesus of Montreal?
posted by jb
Or Last Temptation of Christ.
Which I didn't actually see in the theater, and avoided seeing for years - but in my case, it wasn't a shunning of the plot or premise. There's something about the idea of even Jesus - who's held up as this perfect being a little too often, I think - even just for a few minutes considering to take the easy way out, avoid pain and seek even simple pleasure. It wouldn't be God's will for Him to have done so, but...seriously, sometimes doing God's will is hard. Even if you don't believe in God, you have some kind of concept of morality and dignity and honor, and sometimes those kinds of codes are just hard to live up to - and it's comforting to hear about the perfect people also finding it hard because you realize that it's hard for everyone, it's not just you being weak.
But some people have a real problem with the idea of God or Jesus having a moment of weakness. They want to see Them as perfect - we can be weak, but not God. And I find that such people kind of expect that of other people as well, though, which is the problem - because we aren't.
And speaking of music - that's actually the biggest reason I avoided seeing that film for years, was because I heard Peter Gabriel's score first, and I wanted to keep the pictures my own head came up with while listening to it as long as possible before replacing them with Martin Scorcese's. (Seriously, if this isn't a hymn of celebration I don't know what is. If I am ever fortunate enough to have a wedding I already know I want that as the recessional music at the end.)
Hmm - Peter's also said that one of his secular songs borrows from other cultures' songwriting traditions in the sense that if you listen to the lyrics, it's actually kind of ambiguous whether the singer is talking to a lover, or whether they're talking to God. Pete Townsend's Let My Love Open The Door is also ambiguous about that - but Pete's said that he's not singing that as a lover urging his sweetheart to "let my love open the door", it's God urging us to that in that song. And then you have My Sweet Lord - which is more blatant, but still it relates to God as an equal rather than a perfect idealized thing. (Tangent: I can remember my Catholic church using this as a hymn in Masses a couple times when I was a kid. Minus the "Hare Krishna" bits, of course.)
It strikes me that the best art comes from people who are putting their whole souls into it - and the same goes with religious art. And the thing is that some part of all of us have some icky bits and shadow sides, and so the risk of putting your whole self and your whole soul into it is that other people will, like, know about them. And - it also strikes me that the people who prefer the safe and sanitized art also want their faith compartmentalized as well - go to church once a week, tell people you believe in God if they ask, and don't think about it too much and you're okay. But that leaves the dark parts of you....in the dark. Where there's a risk they could fester and grow. And if you never come to understand what's in there or why it's there, you never learn how to heal it, and so YOU never grow. And you never learn to actually become the whole person you were created to be.
Good art, like true faith, is meant to challenge us. Safe art, like the people who want belief to be safe, aren't quite getting the point. Sure, some of the gentler stuff is fine now and then, but you can't live in spiritual kindergarten forever.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:21 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by benzenedream
Or Jesus of Montreal?
posted by jb
Or Last Temptation of Christ.
Which I didn't actually see in the theater, and avoided seeing for years - but in my case, it wasn't a shunning of the plot or premise. There's something about the idea of even Jesus - who's held up as this perfect being a little too often, I think - even just for a few minutes considering to take the easy way out, avoid pain and seek even simple pleasure. It wouldn't be God's will for Him to have done so, but...seriously, sometimes doing God's will is hard. Even if you don't believe in God, you have some kind of concept of morality and dignity and honor, and sometimes those kinds of codes are just hard to live up to - and it's comforting to hear about the perfect people also finding it hard because you realize that it's hard for everyone, it's not just you being weak.
But some people have a real problem with the idea of God or Jesus having a moment of weakness. They want to see Them as perfect - we can be weak, but not God. And I find that such people kind of expect that of other people as well, though, which is the problem - because we aren't.
And speaking of music - that's actually the biggest reason I avoided seeing that film for years, was because I heard Peter Gabriel's score first, and I wanted to keep the pictures my own head came up with while listening to it as long as possible before replacing them with Martin Scorcese's. (Seriously, if this isn't a hymn of celebration I don't know what is. If I am ever fortunate enough to have a wedding I already know I want that as the recessional music at the end.)
Hmm - Peter's also said that one of his secular songs borrows from other cultures' songwriting traditions in the sense that if you listen to the lyrics, it's actually kind of ambiguous whether the singer is talking to a lover, or whether they're talking to God. Pete Townsend's Let My Love Open The Door is also ambiguous about that - but Pete's said that he's not singing that as a lover urging his sweetheart to "let my love open the door", it's God urging us to that in that song. And then you have My Sweet Lord - which is more blatant, but still it relates to God as an equal rather than a perfect idealized thing. (Tangent: I can remember my Catholic church using this as a hymn in Masses a couple times when I was a kid. Minus the "Hare Krishna" bits, of course.)
It strikes me that the best art comes from people who are putting their whole souls into it - and the same goes with religious art. And the thing is that some part of all of us have some icky bits and shadow sides, and so the risk of putting your whole self and your whole soul into it is that other people will, like, know about them. And - it also strikes me that the people who prefer the safe and sanitized art also want their faith compartmentalized as well - go to church once a week, tell people you believe in God if they ask, and don't think about it too much and you're okay. But that leaves the dark parts of you....in the dark. Where there's a risk they could fester and grow. And if you never come to understand what's in there or why it's there, you never learn how to heal it, and so YOU never grow. And you never learn to actually become the whole person you were created to be.
Good art, like true faith, is meant to challenge us. Safe art, like the people who want belief to be safe, aren't quite getting the point. Sure, some of the gentler stuff is fine now and then, but you can't live in spiritual kindergarten forever.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:21 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
koeselitz: I was sitting here today and musing on the sheer stupidity of even the name of the film "Miracles from Heaven." One assumes that that's where "miracles" are supposed to come from, so it seems redundant ...
I occasionally see miracles coming from other people. Not being a Christian, or even much of a supernaturalist, I don't trace them back to a God or a Heaven. So I guess that title does tell me something, but probably not what the film makers intended.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:36 AM on April 2, 2016
I occasionally see miracles coming from other people. Not being a Christian, or even much of a supernaturalist, I don't trace them back to a God or a Heaven. So I guess that title does tell me something, but probably not what the film makers intended.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:36 AM on April 2, 2016
There's something about the idea of even Jesus - who's held up as this perfect being a little too often, I think - even just for a few minutes considering to take the easy way out, avoid pain and seek even simple pleasure ... But some people have a real problem with the idea of God or Jesus having a moment of weakness.
Which is particularly misguided given that the synoptic gospel writers specifically portray Jesus as praying, pleading, for some way to avoid being tortured and killed: "Abba, Father, for you all things are possible. Take this cup away from me."
posted by straight at 12:12 PM on April 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Which is particularly misguided given that the synoptic gospel writers specifically portray Jesus as praying, pleading, for some way to avoid being tortured and killed: "Abba, Father, for you all things are possible. Take this cup away from me."
posted by straight at 12:12 PM on April 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
One of my wishful thinking bucket-list dreams for the Marvel Cinematic Universe would be Captain America and Daredevil catching their breath after a fight in a Brooklyn alleyway and talking about God.
That's not even including the existing blatant religious symbolism, like how Steve Rogers is the humble savior sent to die for America's sins and how all the promo images for season 2 of Matt Murdock, Catholic Martyr for Punching are homages to religious paintings.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:15 PM on April 5, 2016
That's not even including the existing blatant religious symbolism, like how Steve Rogers is the humble savior sent to die for America's sins and how all the promo images for season 2 of Matt Murdock, Catholic Martyr for Punching are homages to religious paintings.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:15 PM on April 5, 2016
One of the surprising factors in the unprecedented crossover success of the O Brother Where Art Thou soundtrack was how almost all of the songs are religious music. Not just vague "yay Jesus" pop, straight-up mournful Christian "what a relief to die and leave this sinful world to be with Lord God in Heaven!"
posted by nicebookrack at 1:28 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 1:28 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
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That's a pretty harsh framing.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:11 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]