Why European Children Are So Much Quieter Than Yours

May 4, 2016 6:50 AM

The playgrounds weren’t just beautiful. They were quiet. That was what struck me when I first moved to Vienna, Austria. Children there played and laughed, but rarely yelled across the park.
posted by veedubya (136 comments total)

At first, I mistook these customs—the failure to make eye contact or smile while passing on the street, the utter lack of chit-chat that’s the background buzz of American waiting rooms and checkout lines—as evidence of a core coldness.

Aren't some of these things just big city vs small city things? I live in New York and nobody makes eye contact let alone smiles at everyone they walk past on the street, and I wouldn't characterize the city as particularly European.
posted by pravit at 6:58 AM on May 4, 2016 [17 favorites]

My daughter’s 5th grade class (at a public school in Berlin, Germany) practices what they call their “one meter” voices: students are expected to pair with a partner and figure out how to knock over a parking meter in order to steal the precious quarters inside
posted by beerperson at 7:01 AM on May 4, 2016 [19 favorites]

Not to get pedantic, but this article should be titled: "Why Children in German-Speaking Capitals, Some of Whom I Have Met More Than Once, Are Quieter Than Yours, Hypothetical American Upper Middle Class Reader"

I realize that the one they went with is better for getting people to read. And also shorter.
posted by Kattullus at 7:01 AM on May 4, 2016 [82 favorites]

If this thesis is true, it should hold true in places like New York City, and I'm not sure it does. Like Pravit, I do think New Yorkers are much better at sharing public space than suburban and rural Americans, but i don't notice that extending to playground behaviors, though admittedly I don't hang around playgrounds in NYC .
posted by Miko at 7:08 AM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Like Pravit, I do think New Yorkers are much better at sharing public space than suburban and rural Americans,

Clearly, you were not on the downtown 2 train this morning with the two "ladies" who spent the entire trip arguing with each other about who pushed who on the platform.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:11 AM on May 4, 2016 [8 favorites]

It's an aggregate, not individual, phenomenon.
posted by Miko at 7:12 AM on May 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

My GF and I have a closely followed policy of not "yelling across" spaces to talk that also applies to my children. We expect that everyone in our household will walk over to the person we want to talk to and use a reasonable voice, no matter where we are. I resonate with not so much the anecdotal aspects of the article, but the sentiment, absolutely. I would love if more people stopped all the damn hollerin'.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:13 AM on May 4, 2016 [17 favorites]

There is a class element to this as well that the author may be neglecting. In the US, one can tell the class of a street or establishment based on the amount of yelling-as-normal-speech.
posted by Atrahasis at 7:15 AM on May 4, 2016 [12 favorites]

European parents’ discipline about not shouting at their kids was all the more impressive since they also almost never followed their children from apparatus to apparatus, as is the habit of most of us hovering American parents. These parents sat at the edges of the sprawling playground, reading books, drinking coffee, and letting their tots explore on their own.

Don't front, they were dicking around on their phones just like I do when my kid is on the monkey bars
posted by escabeche at 7:17 AM on May 4, 2016 [55 favorites]

No everyone in Europe is also a genteel upperclasser from the 1950s
posted by beerperson at 7:19 AM on May 4, 2016 [13 favorites]

Everyone being so polite. Can I say, as an American, I despise all the yelling? I don't get bothered by kids yelling in a playground; in America that seems culturally appropriate and well enough contained to not be an intrusion. But kids yelling in a restaurant? Parents and kids yelling at each other in public spaces? Adults yelling at each other in a restaurant with no kids around as if that's a normal thing normal people do? It's awful.

The author of this article is very polite to make this all culturally relative. I'm declaring this a cultural absolute; my fellow Americans are boorish.
posted by Nelson at 7:19 AM on May 4, 2016 [33 favorites]

> Aren't some of these things just big city vs small city things? I live in New York and nobody makes eye contact let alone smiles at everyone they walk past on the street, and I wouldn't characterize the city as particularly European.

I live in Toronto, and every time I visit my parents in Sarnia (pop. 75,000) I have to recalibrate my social settings, because people in smaller towns will make small talk with you and as a Big City Person my first reaction is "WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO ME I DON'T KNOW YOU."
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:22 AM on May 4, 2016 [15 favorites]

Why European* Children Are So Much Quieter Than Yours
*Not applicable in Italy**
**And my kid is still louder than everyone else. My mom says its karma.
posted by romakimmy at 7:23 AM on May 4, 2016 [10 favorites]

So is this a new front in the Parent-Shaming Wars?

The only time I hear kids yelling at our local playground is during disputes/if hurt or while playing soccer. While just playing, they are generally pretty quiet. Granted, it's not a playground packed with kids, more kids=more noise.

Absent a study that shows this to be a Real Thing, I'm going to call shenanigans.

Also, I don't mind kids being loud outdoors. Helps them blow off steam. You have to be able to be loud somewhere.

But kids yelling in a restaurant? Parents and kids yelling at each other in public spaces? Adults yelling at each other in a restaurant with no kids around as if that's a normal thing normal people do? It's awful.

I must be dining in/going to different places. I don't hear people yelling at their kids/each other everywhere I go. I hear kids melting down on occasion because they're small and overwhelmed/tired, but in general it's the exception (and upsetting to bystanders) when the adults yell at the kids.
posted by emjaybee at 7:27 AM on May 4, 2016 [19 favorites]

"Aren't some of these things just big city vs small city things?"

Even in small cities, it's becoming less common. When I grew up in small-town Ohio, it was normal to say hello to someone as you passed on the street. Even when I was first living in Columbus (~15 years ago), it happened regularly. Now, people avert their eyes when they see someone approaching to signal not to even nod hello. I travel to some extremely small towns (like, population 400) for work, and I don't even see a lot of interpersonal interaction there.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:28 AM on May 4, 2016

I went to Europe when I was about 10, and the thing that shocked me was that people let pre-school aged children run naked into the fountains and pools in the Oslo public parks.
posted by thelonius at 7:33 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

In my tiny town, most people wave when driving past each other. Also wave if driving past someone sitting on their porch. If passing someone on the sidewalk, always say "hello, how are you?" but not required to pause long for the answer. Unless it's one of the older folks. Then you have to wait a few minutes for a report on the petunias and how the piles are a bother. Wouldn't think of doing any of that in a town even just twice our size however.

Kids are moderately noisy here but not too much. One of my favorite things about my niece is that I can still surprise her with a sudden BOO! and get a big scream. If we're in the house, I'll ask her to scream with her inside voice, and she will. With a very quiet "eeeeeeek!" If we're in public, she'll always use her inside voice scream automatically.
posted by honestcoyote at 7:38 AM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Honestly the weirdest part about Europe for me is seeing children as young as four or five wearing monocles and cleaning them discreetly on their waistcoats when they become fogged by the children's drinking tea from fine bone china
posted by beerperson at 7:41 AM on May 4, 2016 [118 favorites]

My location: European city of ~500,000 people

My view of local children: Shrieking monsters
posted by kyrademon at 7:44 AM on May 4, 2016 [24 favorites]

I think some of this is a function of population density. In places that are dense people ideally make an effort to be quieter and just take up less space in general.
posted by Bee'sWing at 7:48 AM on May 4, 2016

All things going to hell in a handbasket
posted by Postroad at 7:49 AM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

That was truly the most astounding part for me too, beerperson. I was tickled to death when in Paris a small child of five years old, wearing a beret and with painted on pencil moustache, held high and swirled their glass of absinthe as they breathlessly exclaimed "Mon Bel Amour!" as I walked by a quaint school that looked as if it were a Belle Epoque era street cafe.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:50 AM on May 4, 2016 [32 favorites]

Honestly the weirdest part about Europe for me is seeing children as young as four or five wearing monocles and cleaning them discreetly on their waistcoats when they become fogged by the children's drinking tea from fine bone china

...and so many petticoats and corsets! It's no wonder they're so prone to swooning and cases of the vapours.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:50 AM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

Europe is a big place. I frequently have wondered with other parents here in Greece, how the Germans (northerners generally) manage to convince their children from an incredibly early age to keep quiet, not complain too much and not make fuss or trouble. My two kids produced from an early age noise and commotion that dwarfed that produced by kindergarten-loads of German children. And they're not really that far from the mean here in Greece. One notices this decibel discrepancy particularly in beaches.
Of course Greeks and southerners of any age are louder than their northern european counterparts, except when said counterparts are drunk
posted by talos at 7:51 AM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

I totally agree with her - it's so whack, like, these German kids, are like, totally quiet.
Except whenever I see them. Like on the playground or on the S-Bahn or the U-Bahn (public transport). Or at the public pool. Or sometimes on the street. Or at some cafe or restaurant. Or in my house.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:52 AM on May 4, 2016 [8 favorites]

These parents sat at the edges of the sprawling playground, reading books, drinking coffee, and letting their tots explore on their own.

I was going to say that this is how I'm used to seeing parents at the playground, but I realized I'm actually thinking of dog parks.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:53 AM on May 4, 2016 [18 favorites]

...and so many petticoats and corsets! It's no wonder they're so prone to swooning and cases of the vapours.

The last time I was in Europe I bought three cases of vapours, it's just so much better fresh
posted by beerperson at 7:53 AM on May 4, 2016 [26 favorites]

I must be dining in/going to different places. I don't hear people yelling at their kids/each other everywhere I go.

Neither do I, now that I am a grownup and can visit public places and dine out, unaccompanied by my parents.
posted by elizilla at 7:54 AM on May 4, 2016 [10 favorites]

Children round me (London) scream their heads off all the time.

When it comes to being open and friendly I will tell you a nice thing about Americans. My elder daughter had a job as a guide at a famous tourist attraction for a few months. She said it was incredibly boring and the American tourists were her favourite because she said they were the only ones who would stop and have a chat. Her absolute top favourite tourists were elderly Southern ladies who were the friendliest and most amusing of all.

So feel kinda good about yourselves, y'awl, I guess.
posted by Segundus at 7:54 AM on May 4, 2016 [18 favorites]

That was truly the most astounding part for me too, beerperson. I was tickled to death when in Paris a small child of five years old, wearing a beret and with painted on pencil moustache, held high and swirled their glass of absinthe and breathlessly exclaimed "Mon Bel Amour!" as I walked by a quaint school that looked as if it were a Belle Epoque era street cafe.

I do appreciate that the kindergartners keep their discussions of Sartre to a quiet murmur whilst playing pétanque at the local boulodromes.

What really gets to me is their constant smoking.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:55 AM on May 4, 2016 [50 favorites]

In 2011, it was tiger mothers. Then, in 2012, it was French mothers. Now, apparently, it’s “European” mothers. Is there a case to be mad that all of this Mom-shaming is profoundly anti-feminist?
posted by Going To Maine at 7:55 AM on May 4, 2016 [10 favorites]

I live in Vienna, between three parks where children play. Sometimes they play loudly, sometimes quietly, sometimes while yelling horrible things at each other. What is a significant difference, though, is that it's much more normal for adults who are not the kids' parents to intervene if, e.g. a kid gets hurt or some kids start throwing sand at each other, or a kid just sits down and starts crying, etc.

The dog runs in these parks, on the other hand, are often empty, because people prefer to walk their dogs in the part of the parks designated for humans, where there's less dog shit on the ground.
posted by frimble at 7:56 AM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

I was tickled to death when in Paris a small child of five years old, wearing a beret and with painted on pencil moustache, held high and swirled their glass of absinthe as they breathlessly exclaimed "Mon Bel Amour!" as I walked by a quaint school that looked as if it were a Belle Epoque era street cafe.

lol at little kids being able to speak french
posted by beerperson at 7:59 AM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

I assume other places have articles about how American children are so much better than $COUNTRY's children because of some intangible aspect of the United States that we should work really hard to implement here in $COUNTRY?
posted by leotrotsky at 8:00 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Re Kids speaking french: I was humbled when I learned that a 4 year old spoke french better than I did when they saw I was struggling at a patisserie so they ordered my la choux cafe for me. No really, for real that happened and I felt even more dumb when he pointed at the right coins I needed to use to pay for the damn thing.

At least I knew how to say "Merci" and smile real big so as not to come off as a totally complete bumbling moron.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:06 AM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah, what is this "European" of which you speak? The author has obviously never been to Spain.
posted by kandinski at 8:08 AM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Clearly, you were not on the downtown 2 train this morning with the two "ladies" who spent the entire trip arguing with each other about who pushed who on the platform.

Holy cow, we were on the same train. (Or, not improbably, this happened twice this morning.)

"YOU SAY EXCUSE ME! YOU DIDN'T SAY EXCUSE ME!"
posted by praemunire at 8:08 AM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Seriously, shaming people for letting their kids play loudly on a playground? I remember teaching my son as I had been taught, to "use your inside voice" when inside. But kids and grownups should get to use their outside voices when they're outside too. A silent playground would be just plain creepy. Perhaps she'd enjoy a visit to a playground on Camazotz.
posted by Daily Alice at 8:08 AM on May 4, 2016 [15 favorites]

I'm a yeller. The town I grew up in is full of yellers. My children will be yellers too, unless, before getting preggers, I undertake a concerted effort to change my lifelong behaviors to match some other culture's social standards.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:15 AM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

the article simplifies a lot of points. it's true that this is largely about population density, but then it's also true that many americans prefer to live in lower density areas. it's true that europe is large and varied, and so is the states. but the americans and the italians have a reputation for being noisy, while the germans and viennese have a reputation for being quiet. and that reputation, on average, is somewhat deserved.

but what speaks loudest to me are the accusations of "shaming" and the wide insistence on everything being explained by complexity. such unanimous denial makes me suspect the article hit a nerve. and to do that it perhaps contains a grain of truth....
posted by andrewcooke at 8:18 AM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

I cannot even. Playgrounds are outdoor play spaces. They are literally designed as places where kids can run around and scream like madmen, because that is what children do if left to their own devices. Children are small whirling dervishes of chaotic energy, who can be somewhat contained for brief periods of time by shackling them with social inhibitions and creating conceits like "inside voices." It is the furthest thing possible from their natural state of "covered in finger paint and doing a barrel roll off the couch." As a nod to this disparity, we have created outdoor areas in which they can be free of these constraints, and yell about the rules of the game they just invented, or about the squirrel up in that tree and how goddamn awesome it is, or about whatever minor slight they have just suffered.

If a five-year-old is screaming delightedly at the table next to yours at Per Se, then yes, you probably have a real grievance with those parents. If that same child is hollering the theme song to Daniel Tiger from the top of the tall slide, and it offends your sensibilities, let me suggest that you find yourself a playground with a merry-go-round to go burn off some of the steam that has been boiling angrily inside of you, lo these many years.
posted by Mayor West at 8:21 AM on May 4, 2016 [18 favorites]

I wonder how shouty lil' Adolf was when he annexed the monkey bars.
posted by adept256 at 8:22 AM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

To my own everlasting detriment, we Americans value extroversion, gregariousness, and public displays of enthusiasm and ego. We believe those are virtues/talents/assets. That may actually be a fundamental prerequisite of an egalitarian society with high class-mobility and/or a relatively flat class hierarchy.

Does there have to be a more complicated explanation? Isn't it good that not all cultures are (yet) identical?
posted by Western Infidels at 8:25 AM on May 4, 2016 [10 favorites]

I did not read the article or even most of the comments, because I can't hear myself think over the sound of children screaming in the playground next to my "back garden" in a very expensive area of the UK.
posted by yomimono at 8:30 AM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I would to clarify my first comment here, my kids are wild and loud as hell when they play. I don't mind it at all. What gets me is when my kids are yelling to get someone's attention, that when it becomes "walk over there to them". If after that they become an unrestrained ball of free energy then yay for them.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:31 AM on May 4, 2016

There's also the fact that Vinenna is populated and run by vampires.
posted by The Whelk at 8:31 AM on May 4, 2016 [13 favorites]

I assume other places have articles about how American children are so much better than $COUNTRY's children because of some intangible aspect of the United States that we should work really hard to implement here in $COUNTRY?


No.
posted by The Toad at 8:33 AM on May 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

"I assume other places have articles about how American children are so much better than $COUNTRY's children because of some intangible aspect of the United States that we should work really hard to implement here in $COUNTRY?"

I read one once! In a Costa Rican publication. The writer talked about how when she worked at a resort she was appalled by American children were constantly objecting to their parents' edicts about, like, what they were going to do that day, and how the parents let them. But gradually she realized the children didn't WIN these arguments, the parent just heard their objections, answered them, and the kids, having been heard, subsided and cooperated. Or sometimes if the kids had a good point the parents conceded the point. She thought Costa Rican parents, whom she claimed were much more "I said so," could take more time to talk about the reasons for things with their kids and to try to listen and hear their kids' feelings.

It actually was kind of nice to be the "hey this other culture has a good parenting idea!" culture for a change.

Also, one METER voices? Around here (American Midwest) they teach 12-inch voices in school. One meter seems pretty loud for an indoor conversation in a crowded room! (Our family does "arms length voices" for restaurants, don't let your voice escape past your fingertips! Easy to illustrate physically wherever you are, so easier for preschoolers to understand.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:33 AM on May 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

It turns out the author was measuring decibels in metric. When you convert to imperial measurements the volume difference is a wash.
posted by drezdn at 8:34 AM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's also the fact that Vinenna is populated and run by vampires.

Vienna sausages = blood sausage, q.e.d.
posted by beerperson at 8:36 AM on May 4, 2016

Kind of strange article and a funny thing to focus on. It is a purely cultural phenomena I think and weird to feel diminished that your children are not the same or envious about that child's behavior. But I think Western Infidels has it though, "Americans value extroversion, gregariousness, and public displays of enthusiasm and ego" and other cultures don't or express it in a different way.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:37 AM on May 4, 2016

I'm seeing this idea of a monoculture where everyone in X is like Y. Our family was quite soft spoken, and I equated yelling with anger or pain or straight up violence. Then at a sleep-over at a friends house I was quite scared when mom yells from the kitchen.

DINNER'S READY

WE'RE PLAYING NINTENDO

COME RIGHT NOW OR YOU WON'T GET ANYTHING

It was like warfare to me, with bombs exploding all over. And we lived in the same town and went to the same school.
posted by adept256 at 8:38 AM on May 4, 2016 [13 favorites]

The only Americans living in Europe that I know who have commented on this live in Germany and Swizterland. Their (my friends') apartment complexes have middle-of-the-day quiet hours where even kids aren't allowed to make noise and they train those kids to shut the hell up accordingly, on pain of actually getting fined. This does not seem to be a universally European phenomenon. It definitely does not apply in the UK, in my experience.

On the other hand, Germans and their pool chairs, amirite?
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:40 AM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

I assume other places have articles about how American children are so much better than $COUNTRY's children because of some intangible aspect of the United States that we should work really hard to implement here in $COUNTRY?

Cops in schools
posted by grobstein at 8:41 AM on May 4, 2016

It was like warfare to me, with bombs exploding all over. And we lived in the same town and went to the same school.

Honestly, it can vary like that in the same house. My mother is very conflict avoidant to the extent that she reads what seems to me like simple disagreement as fighting. My father isn't a yeller, but he's the kind of instinctive contrarian who turns everything into a debate. They make it work, but if you saw either of them outside their family you might make assumptions about the differences between them.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:42 AM on May 4, 2016

I must be dining in/going to different places. I don't hear people yelling at their kids/each other everywhere I go.

This is the primary reason I stopped going to Walmarts. I swear there's something about that store that MAKES people yell at kids.
posted by JanetLand at 8:43 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

The writer talked about how when she worked at a resort she was appalled by American children were constantly objecting to their parents' edicts about, like, what they were going to do that day, and how the parents let them. But gradually she realized the children didn't WIN these arguments, the parent just heard their objections, answered them, and the kids, having been heard, subsided and cooperated. Or sometimes if the kids had a good point the parents conceded the point.

We do this, and I have seen more than a few fellow Americans give us eyerolls. But if you're not going to hit your child, you kind of have to find other ways to get them on board with what you want. Bonus side-effect; they get good at questioning authority/demanding to know why things are a certain way. Less bonus: they will try to rules-lawyer you to death if they really don't want to do something.
posted by emjaybee at 8:44 AM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

I actually asked about children and quiet laws last week! In Vienna, it basically boils down to: Normal child noise (yelling, crying, playing) is not covered by quiet laws, and almost every complaint about child noise will be summarily rejected, as it's an explicit exception in the quiet laws.
posted by frimble at 8:51 AM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

The only Americans living in Europe that I know who have commented on this live in Germany and Swizterland. Their (my friends') apartment complexes have middle-of-the-day quiet hours where even kids aren't allowed to make noise and they train those kids to shut the hell up accordingly, on pain of actually getting fined. This does not seem to be a universally European phenomenon. It definitely does not apply in the UK, in my experience.

Israeli cities, in my childhood. From 2PM to 4 PM, no basketball, and no soccer if the pitch was against a wall. No yelling either. And we complied. 2 to 4 was for homework, for marbles, for any kind of quiet play.
posted by ocschwar at 8:51 AM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

I must be dining in/going to different places. I don't hear people yelling at their kids/each other everywhere I go.

Maybe not yelling as in conflict, but yelling as in talking loudly? Sure, there are tons of American restaurants where just so that the other person you're dining with can hear you, you need to start yelling too. Not sure if such places exist in Europe though.
posted by shala at 8:52 AM on May 4, 2016

I went to Europe when I was about 10, and the thing that shocked me was that people let pre-school aged children run naked into the fountains and pools in the Oslo public parks.

Those were elves.
posted by benzenedream at 8:56 AM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

I cannot even. Playgrounds are outdoor play spaces. They are literally designed as places where kids can run around and scream like madmen, because that is what children do if left to their own devices

The article isn't talking about the children's behavior in the playground but the parents' behavior. The kids might yell, but the parents walk over to talk to them instead of yelling from the bench. After a few years of that, most children would internalize that they too need to pipe down.

I'd wish my fellow parents in the playground acted that way.
'RILEY! GET HERE RIGHT NOW!"

I'm amused that the article uses a picture form The Sound of Music. The real story behind Von Trapp's bosun whistle was that the Villa Von Trapp had a very large garden and the captain wanted his kids to have the full run of it. So he got a bosun's pipe to use for summoning them without yelling.
posted by ocschwar at 8:57 AM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

The kids might yell, but the parents walk over to talk to them instead of yelling from the bench. After a few years of that, most children would internalize that they too need to pipe down.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
posted by beerperson at 8:58 AM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

Look, I have a 3 year old. Leave my delusions in peace.
posted by ocschwar at 9:02 AM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

On the other hand, Germans and their pool chairs, amirite?

Ok but that is TRUE
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:10 AM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

This was one subject I was ready to stand on my porch and shake my fist at, saying "It was better when we were kids!" but I'd be massively incorrect.

To this day, my parents, brother and I regularly shout across rooms in their house over the holidays. Mom has an incredibly penetrating shriek, and us menfolk have deep booming voices.

I remember going to an old girlfriends parent's house and they had 1970's Brady Bunch style intercoms and thinking "Why can't you just yell?"
posted by Sphinx at 9:14 AM on May 4, 2016

Also, one METER voices? Around here (American Midwest) they teach 12-inch voices in school. One meter seems pretty loud for an indoor conversation in a crowded room!

Presumably, if everyone is quieter, a "12-inch voice" is all that's needed to be heard a meter away in a crowded room.

The kids might yell, but the parents walk over to talk to them instead of yelling from the bench. After a few years of that, most children would internalize that they too need to pipe down.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Is the funny part that kids do not internalize behaviors, or is it that kids are not actually quieter in European countries, or that they must be taught it instead of internalizing it? Apparently it has to happen at some point in a person's life or these cultural differences wouldn't be discussed.
posted by picklenickle at 9:21 AM on May 4, 2016

There's also the fact that Vinenna is populated and run by vampires.

Not true. Magistrate Division 35 permits me to be a long-term non-haemophagic resident of the city in exchange for a donation, of my own free will, of two points of blood every five years.
posted by frimble at 9:23 AM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

I frequently have wondered with other parents here in Greece, how the Germans (northerners generally) manage to convince their children from an incredibly early age to keep quiet, not complain too much and not make fuss or trouble

Famed German engineering?
posted by octobersurprise at 9:23 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

This was one subject I was ready to stand on my porch and shake my fist at, saying "It was better when we were kids!" but I'd be massively incorrect.

Another twitter agnostic. You're so out of touch 🎂 💩
posted by adept256 at 9:23 AM on May 4, 2016

It's clearly all the beatings.
posted by gottabefunky at 9:24 AM on May 4, 2016

it's much more normal for adults who are not the kids' parents to intervene if, e.g. a kid gets hurt or some kids start throwing sand at each other, or a kid just sits down and starts crying, etc.

When I'm at playgrounds w/ the kids, I often tell other parents that they can feel free to tell my kids to shut up or be nice or whatever. My wife says it's become I'm lazy and just like to read, but now I can tell her that I'm just more sophisticated and European then her.
posted by jpe at 9:24 AM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

European parents’ discipline about not shouting at their kids was all the more impressive since they also almost never followed their children from apparatus to apparatus, as is the habit of most of us hovering American parents. These parents sat at the edges of the sprawling playground, reading books, drinking coffee, and letting their tots explore on their own. When they had to talk to their kids, they got up and walked close enough that they could use a normal voice.

I was baffled at first, and I’d snicker with my fellow expats about the harsh disciplinary measures and lack of spirit that must explain the bizarre quiet. Yet now, nearly eight years later, I’ve come to see a logic behind our different cultures, and understand why Americans’ reputation for being loud and boorish and the continental Europeans’ reputation for being cold and standoffish exist, but are ultimately incomplete.

Baffled? Eight years?! Perhaps if she had spent less time and energy invested in opinions based on snark and judgmental derision with her fellow "ex-pats," this logic would have come to her more quickly.
posted by desuetude at 9:40 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

there are tons of American restaurants where just so that the other person you're dining with can hear you, you need to start yelling too. Not sure if such places exist in Europe though.

No, America is different than Europe. (Not talking about kids here, just adults.) At least in San Francisco, restaurants are full of people talking incredibly loudly. Not just casual places, temples of fine dining too. I specifically recall a birthday dinner at Gary Danko a few years ago when it was the second or third best restaurant in SF. And even the waiters were yelling to make themselves heard.

Part of the problem is bad restaurant design: too crowded and the surfaces don't absorb sound. But the bigger problem is Americans don't have an inside voice. You can go to an equally crowded Paris restaurant where every surface is stone or tile and yet the adults are talking in a civilized voice. Sitting two tables away you can't make out individual words, just a gentle murmur. In an American restaurant I'm hearing all about Aunt Agnes' colostomy from across the room.
posted by Nelson at 9:50 AM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wandering into this article's comments section like WHAT UP FROM BOSTON FIRST OF ALL FUCK YOU BRO
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:54 AM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

Loud & Proud, baby, with my loud and proud baby.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:55 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Children in London playgrounds and school yards are extremely loud a lot of the time, so I'm kind of scared to imagine what US playgrounds are like now.
posted by knapah at 10:01 AM on May 4, 2016

"But the bigger problem is Americans don't have an inside voice. "

This is only slightly related but I've met a surprising amount of people who don't know how to whisper. I would tell them "whisper" and then they'd lower their volume by just a tad bit. And then I'd whisper to them "I mean talk like this" and then they'd say "Like this" in a quiet speaking voice that was still much louder than a whisper. Has anybody else ever encountered that?
posted by I-baLL at 10:02 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Me, looking up from my book five minutes after we get to the playground:

"Goddammit, did he get kidnapped already? Oh, wait, there he is."

(Resumes reading)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:03 AM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

European parents [...] also almost never followed their children from apparatus to apparatus, as is the habit of most of us hovering American parents. These parents sat at the edges of the sprawling playground, reading books, drinking coffee, and letting their tots explore on their own.

*Not applicable in Italy**

but the americans and the italians have a reputation for being noisy, while the germans and viennese have a reputation for being quiet.

The parent-hovering-at-the-playground behaviour is extreme and near obligatory here in Italy, while the German standard is in stark contrast to that, with kids dogmatically left to their own devices when at play. I've watched enough instances in various parts of both countries to see a real cultural divide in this.

There's an undercurrent of German anxiety about their offspring's risk of non-autonomy, which is as strong as as the opposing Italian urge to show premura, their concern about their offspring's risk of harm. My suspicion is that both are actually performed in significant part to further parents' own agenda (in Germany to do with parents' own-time, in Italy with parents' scoring points in a kind of constant public parenting competition).

How that maps to silence isn't something I've really thought about - but not something the article really does much to clarify, either.
posted by progosk at 10:04 AM on May 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

The last time I was on the steam train at the Magic Kingdom, the little kid ahead of me kept all of her arms and legs completely outside the Victorian train car at all times. Her American parents use their outdoor voices to scream and yell at her for how disrespectful she had been all morning while their heads were completely turned in the other direction. I wanted to use my outdoor voice to yell at them with their daughter was about to become a bloody torso, but I didn't want those outdoor voices turned on me so I just kept my arms ready to grab her at any second. Stupid Americans.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:16 AM on May 4, 2016

Suggested edit: replace all instances of "Europeans" in the article with "middle class white Germans and Austrians in gentrified expat-populated neighbourhoods of capital cities". You’re welcome.
posted by bitteschoen at 10:20 AM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Why do Americans always think the worst of each other?
posted by grounded at 10:20 AM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Loud & Proud, baby, with my loud and proud baby.

Congratulations! We're also proud to store your loud and proud baby in the cargo hold day care centre for the duration of the flight.
posted by adept256 at 10:20 AM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oooo do I playground hover. Not because I'm american, nor because I buy into the whole premura-my-kid's-gonna-get-hurt jazz, but because my threenager is a stubborn little helli-on-wheels and I'm more worried about what she's gonna do to the other kid.

And my parents, across an ocean, suddenly cackle out loud, unprompted, then look around perplexed as to its source....
posted by romakimmy at 10:22 AM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why do Americans always think the worst of each other?

cultural training?
posted by kokaku at 10:24 AM on May 4, 2016

Congratulations!

It's spelled centER you godless commie.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:26 AM on May 4, 2016

Loudness in restaurants is enough of a thing that the Washington Post food reviewer has started to take decibel readings after so many requests that his reviews tell people about how loud the restaurants were. The problem seemed to be that a loud, buzzing restaurant made people feel like they were in a trendy, hip place but meanwhile people with even a tiny bit of hearing loss were struggling.
posted by PussKillian at 10:27 AM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Americans aren't more likely to think the worst of each other we are just more likely to speak our minds outside of polite classist tittering at schnitzel roasts or whatever it is.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:29 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Why do Americans always think the worst of each other?"

Most of our comedians come from Canada and are engaged in a secret program of training Americans to self-loathing by making fun of us while pretending to be Americans.

What, you thought the War of 1812 was OVER?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:33 AM on May 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

speaking of internalizing to use a soft voice....

What cues do you use to remind others to use lower voices and softened tones? I've tried lowering and slowing my own voice (which sometimes works in professional meetings to de-escalate) but often have to actually go "hush" with my finger to my lips (like I'm a 1950's librarian) or "shh" and touch their wrist with my immediate family in casual settings.
posted by beaning at 10:54 AM on May 4, 2016

While reading these comments all I could imagine in my head was that nuclear explosion scene in Terminator 2 with the playground in flames.

I am a loud talker, but not by nature. I actually can't hear myself speak too well and oftentimes can't hear other people talking to me. I was definitely raised to have an "inside voice" (this was a very big deal at the Episcopalian school I went to as a child), but going to hardcore shows as a teenager destroyed my hearing. My parents, who are in their 60's, are very loud talkers after a few drinks and I definitely take after them, to the detriment of my partners and friends.
posted by gucci mane at 10:57 AM on May 4, 2016

Why do Americans always think the worst of each other?

Saves time?
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:58 AM on May 4, 2016 [10 favorites]

beaning: What cues do you use to remind others to use lower voices and softened tones?

I straight up do a "shh" or tell them they're being too loud. I may not say "you're being too loud" if I'm slightly embarrassed myself, but a more passive "you're being so loud!"
posted by gucci mane at 11:01 AM on May 4, 2016

My technique is to not be intimidated. This may be different for you, because you have a different physical stature. That's understandable. I see people raising their voice at me as a form of violence, and my placid replies to be an indication that I won't be intimidated. But as I said, anyone that is before me will plainly see that escalating from verbal violence to anything else will end very badly for them. Bullies are essentially cowards.
posted by adept256 at 11:08 AM on May 4, 2016

Why do Americans always think the worst of each other?

It seems to me as though the media is constantly forcing Americans to view the world through a Hobbesian state of nature lens, in which everyone is savagely competing to take your job, your house, your loved ones, your life...we're all on the verge of being made obsolete, in this case by a bunch of silent Viennese assassin children.
posted by nikoniko at 11:12 AM on May 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

Waistcoat-wearing silent Viennese vampire assassin children.
posted by frimble at 11:27 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Be-monocled, waistcoat-wearing, silent Viennese vampire assassin children.
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:33 AM on May 4, 2016

Be-monocled, waistcoat-wearing, silent Viennese vampire assassin children.

I'm pitching this to HBO.
posted by adept256 at 11:37 AM on May 4, 2016 [15 favorites]

My Mom strictly enforced "consideration for others" rules in our house. Of course this was 30 plus years ago, but we were not ever allowed to yell, anywhere, period. Also we were not allowed to play outside on Sundays until after noon when it would be OK for the sounds of our play to be heard by the neighbors. It didn't kill me.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 11:46 AM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

As a native European (born, raised and lived in Germany for 27 years but spent a good amount of time in various European countries inlcluding Spain as mentioned aboev) who moved to the US and has been living here (CA) for the last 18 years I have to say that there is one volume/voice related difference between the US and Europe that I am keenly aware of and always have been:

Even though people may not be physically louder here in the States in terms of raw volume they seem to be able to speak in a kind of, er, punchier voice. Not unlike what they do to Howard Stern's voice using compression etc. The result is that if I'm in a busy cafe or restaurant in the US conversations from neighboring tables carry through and remain mostly comprehensible. In Europe on the other hand these voices seem to blend more into indistinguishable background noise in a similar environment and other people's conversations are usually impossible to comprehend and follow from similar distances. Not sure what or why this is but I swear it's 100% true.

I took me a long time to get used to it here (and frankly I still struggle with it) as I've always had trouble following one voice over others if I can understand words from all of them. Sometimes it feels very invasive because it feels like other peoples conversations are being actively pushed and projected into my space. It's been like that everywhere in the US I've gone to but it's particularly bad here in LA where you get lots of wanna-be Hollywood types who crank this type of voice up to 11 on purpose because they actually actively do want everybody to know about their important projects and the important people they're connected with and how important they are themselves.

In conclusion: get off my acoustic lawn.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 11:51 AM on May 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

Really enjoying the descriptions of cultural-stereotypical European children. They are a perfect parody of my Canadian grandmother's aggravating, belittling descriptions of my childhood in Paris in the 1990s.
posted by bibliotropic at 11:52 AM on May 4, 2016

Why do Americans always think the worst of each other?

Because we are the actual worst.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:03 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

I once sat in a small restaurant in Lisbon with my in-laws while we had a loud, laughter filled conversation about which one of us would be most willing to push the button if it came to nuclear war. It was the most conspicuously American I have ever felt.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:24 PM on May 4, 2016

A quiet playground? I must visit this other Europe, our local playground is like the party-scene from "Gremlins".
posted by Petersondub at 12:32 PM on May 4, 2016

This is the primary reason I stopped going to Walmarts. I swear there's something about that store that MAKES people yell at kids.

To be fair, the mind-bogglingly vast size of the buildings necessitates shouting due to the gravitational effects of the chthonic blood-beasts keeping the place from collapsing to form a singularity of pure hellish wrath-plasm pulsing in the Electronics Department.
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:39 PM on May 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yelling children do not bother me one hundredth as much as leaf blowers. I put cotton balls in my ears when the maintenence guys fire up. Also if I was a baby and the air pressure in the airplane cabin was shooting up and my ears were in pain I promise you I would be screaming my lungs out.
posted by bukvich at 12:59 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Suggested edit: replace all instances of "Europeans" in the article with "middle class white Germans and Austrians in gentrified expat-populated neighbourhoods of capital cities". You’re welcome."

So what are you trying to say then? That Germans and Austrians with darker skin colors are loud? That somehow culture is based upon skin color? I don't understand why you're implying that it's "white" Germans and Austrians who are quiet.
posted by I-baLL at 1:45 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Be-monocled, waistcoat-wearing, silent Viennese vampire assassin children.

I'm pitching this to HBO.

So a cross between What we do in the shadows and Let the right one in? That would indeed slay.
posted by progosk at 2:01 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

For all the naysayers our two kids were by far the loudest beasties in multiple English playgrounds when we visited a couple of years back.
posted by zeoslap at 2:04 PM on May 4, 2016

This is only slightly related but I've met a surprising amount of people who don't know how to whisper. I would tell them "whisper" and then they'd lower their volume by just a tad bit. And then I'd whisper to them "I mean talk like this" and then they'd say "Like this" in a quiet speaking voice that was still much louder than a whisper. Has anybody else ever encountered that?

Yes, I've actually known a couple people like this. On the flip side, I think there's something about my whispering voice that makes it particularly hard for others to hear. Maybe I don't enunciate very well? I am known to talk very quickly, so maybe that just doesn't carry over into whispering very effectively.

The only Americans living in Europe that I know who have commented on this live in Germany and Swizterland. Their (my friends') apartment complexes have middle-of-the-day quiet hours where even kids aren't allowed to make noise and they train those kids to shut the hell up accordingly, on pain of actually getting fined.

This sounds like my kind of place! I would love to live somewhere like this. It's not that I blame kids for wanting to be noisy kids, it's just that it makes me want to scream and/or gouge out my ears.

(This is one of many reasons why I have no desire to ever procreate.)
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:31 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

I know my parents had a policy of seeming unconscious of screams* for attention from across the house, or even room. I found myself doing this with friends' children a while ago, realized they were staring at me funny, and asked if they answered shouting. I'm pretty sure that they (a) have slightly pitied my frigid upbringing ever since and (b) started trying it with their kids.

*Actual terrified screams not included, my dad took a door off its hinges once before my brother had drawn his second breath. Good thing bro wasn't right behind the door.
posted by clew at 2:53 PM on May 4, 2016

children are horrible sticky creatures made entirely of ear-shattering sound and filthy germs and i would ban them if i could, but tbh i think the main problem for me is that i absolutely cannot discern between a child shrieking with happiness and a child shrieking in terror or pain. so any time a child is shrieking i am always lowkey on edge because i might have to murder someone for hurting a kid and it's incredibly exhausting.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:22 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

in conclusion we must drive them into the sea
posted by poffin boffin at 3:24 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why do Americans always think the worst of each other?

we have met the enemy and he is us

(On preview: poffin boffin! with your secret chewy nougat center, and... oh. Never mind.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:29 PM on May 4, 2016

so any time a child is shrieking i am always lowkey on edge because i might have to murder someone for hurting a kid

As if you aren't already a hat-drop away from bloody vengeance at all times
posted by beerperson at 3:32 PM on May 4, 2016

we must now fight in the holmgang
posted by poffin boffin at 3:38 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is that like prom
posted by beerperson at 3:40 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was waiting for the author to realize that they play quietly because they are all ghost children.
posted by discopolo at 3:41 PM on May 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't understand why you're implying that it's "white" Germans and Austrians who are quiet.

Middle class white Germans and Austrians in gentrified expat-populated neighbourhoods of capital cities? heh, I don’t know how I could be more specific than that, but speaking as a non-middle-class-white-German person living in Germany, it was meant with humorous and affectionate familiarity with what she’s talking about, except she talked about it a bit toooo generically.

As others observed, it’s certainly not "Europeans" in general (and she does acknowledge that in the comments) but it’s not even Germans in general, least of all in Berlin where she lives and where her kids go to school. It’s not Bavaria...

(In fact, even in one of the most gentrified and less ethnically diverse neighbourhoods of Berlin where a lot of young families live, there were complaints about "Kinderlärm" - children’s noise... because playgrounds are too full.)
posted by bitteschoen at 3:50 PM on May 4, 2016

Last night was bin night so I was taking the wheelie bins out at coincidentally the same time as pretty much everybody else in the street. I thought, this is a good opportunity to get to know my neighbours other than just the nosy old English woman on one side and the shouty small Vietnamese woman on the other. But then I was like, while we're doing the bins? That's like saying hello to the person shitting in the next stall. And so that's why society is crap probably.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:43 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fuck inside voices and politeness.

What we need in the US is coffee and alcohol next (or even in the middle of) to every playground.

Taking my kid to the park is excruciatingly boring. And when she was younger and I had to take her at 5:30 a.m. it was torture (childless people, do you know that in every city there exists an invisible underworld of half-dead-half-alive parents sitting in parks with babies before the sun rises? Next time you are on your way to your clean and quiet childless home at 5:00 a.m., after spending your childless person disposable money in childless person's bars and parties, take a look).

When I visit my sister in Italy, I volunteer to take all the kids to the park. Espresso before noon, wine after that. At first it feels WRONG to be pushing kids on a swing with a glass of wine in one hand, but after the second glass everything makes sense. And at least in her Northern Italy town, the parents do not hover over the children.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 4:56 PM on May 4, 2016 [8 favorites]

This is what I mean: The playground and bar share an entrance.

http://imgur.com/ISh3ekQ
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 5:03 PM on May 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

not to mention that they both appear to be in some kind of ruined palazzo? Man Italy is the fuckin best.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:47 PM on May 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

At first it feels WRONG to be pushing kids on a swing with a glass of wine in one hand

In Oberkassel, if you are caught pushing the swing, instead of letting your kid learn and practice (and eventually enjoy) the nature of gravity, you will be frowned upon, I kid you not.
posted by progosk at 10:03 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

"It was like warfare to me, with bombs exploding all over. And we lived in the same town and went to the same school."

Yeah, my childhood home was very quiet. And it (mostly) wasn't a fearful thing or anything like that, it was just that we were pretty quiet. I would always be a bit freaked out when I had friends over and they were loud, and they would often comment on how quiet the house was.

I'm still like that, really. Even with my disability, I naturally walk quietly. I don't just push doors closed, I turn the knob to avoid the latch sound. Well, and also to avoid it knocking against the doorjamb. I close doors and cupboards and such as if I were a burglar, I suppose. And walk. This is probably why when I live with other people, I'm often startling them with my quiet, sudden appearance.

But other people's loud noises in the house end up feeling very provocative to me. As if someone were angry. Which does go back to some other childhood stuff.

All that said, I don't mind loud children, possibly because I just like children. Children playing loudly just inherently makes me happy. One time I lived across the street from a school playground and I thought that was great. It's nice to be, say, sitting near a window reading and hearing the children play nearby.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:24 PM on May 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

There is a class element to this as well that the author may be neglecting. In the US, one can tell the class of a street or establishment based on the amount of yelling-as-normal-speech.

I'm calling bullshit on this. Yes, the stereotype is that "one can tell" in the US that inferior lower-class streets or "establishments" (and what "establishments" might those be? hair salons? dive bars? crack houses?) are louder and shoutier than non-lower-class. And I'm not saying that the stereotype is never true. But I can say with very high confidence that (my anecdata is as good as anyone's, anyway) many places I've been, especially supermarkets for some reason, are full of entitled middle- to upper-class people yelling and letting their kids yell because they're affluent and the rest of you plebes are not and you just have to deal with it in servile silence.

Particularly in the case of children, parents from the smug yelling-as-normal-speech bourgeois classes believe that their little ones are entitled to do anything they damn well please. If that means yelling, shouting, screeching, talking back, wailing, whining, running amok, having a fit, or throwing tantrums, so be it.

That may actually be a fundamental prerequisite of an egalitarian society with high class-mobility and/or a relatively flat class hierarchy.

What society are you talking about? That society isn't the United States in 2016, that's for sure.
posted by blucevalo at 7:41 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

"What we need in the US is coffee and alcohol next (or even in the middle of) to every playground."

They call this Chuck E. Cheese and it is the seventh circle of hell.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:15 AM on May 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

Anyone following my Instagram who turns the sound on my videos will realize this is most definitely not true. Like in the past two days I have shot ducklings with childrens' shrieks in the background, and pottery with children shrieking in the background. Note that I totally do not mind, it's just that you can definitely hear it, and I am several dozen meters away from the shrieking. I live next to Paris.

I have actually noticed that American tourists are a lot quieter these past few years. The loud ones are usually German or Spaniard (ha! take that! no seriously it doesn't matter).
posted by fraula at 11:24 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

in the past two days I have shot ducklings with childrens' shrieks in the background

Definitely spent a few seconds thinking of course they're shrieking, you're SHOOTING DUCKLINGS
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:30 AM on May 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

From what I can tell, European children don't run around yelling because they're bolted to the ground, singing that song about how small the world is with the one moon and one golden sun, yadda yadda yadda.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:35 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

At first it feels WRONG to be pushing kids on a swing with a glass of wine in one hand

Too easy to spill. Keep it in the bottle.
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:56 AM on May 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

At least in San Francisco, restaurants are full of people talking incredibly loudly. Not just casual places, temples of fine dining too. [...] Americans don't have an inside voice. You can go to an equally crowded Paris restaurant where every surface is stone or tile and yet the adults are talking in a civilized voice. Sitting two tables away you can't make out individual words, just a gentle murmur.

Going to have to push back on this. I've been to plenty of quiet restaurants in SF (even with kids there!), though I will admit that when selecting a bar to go to (which--usually in the U.S.--is not going to have children present) part of the question for me is whether I'll be able to hear 10 or 50% of my group's conversation.
posted by psoas at 12:19 PM on May 9, 2016

Screw all this quiet vs. loud crap, the thing I want to emulate about the European families I've known is letting their kids actually do stuff and not hovering all the time or infantilizing them to death. I spent a month on a farm in Italy last year, a few weeks of which also involved a Scottish family and their two just barely school aged daughters. They had their five year old cooking in the kitchen with us. She didn't use the chef's knife or lift heavy pots and pans into the oven or anything dangerous for a young child, but there was no "baby don't touch that!" or "they only eat chicken nuggets" or anything like that. They treated their kids like little human beings, and I dug that.

On the other hand, for all I know they're the only people in all of Scotland raising their children this way.
posted by Sara C. at 2:59 PM on May 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Possibly you need to meet different Americans; my kids have been knife-wielding in the kitchen since they were four. Actually, tonight they made pizza for the family, they are four and six. This is not particularly unusual behavior.

I do not know any children who only eat "kid food." I ... don't actually know any families who eat that way or encourage that. (Chicken nuggets on soccer night? Sure, they're quick and easy. Chicken nuggets when the parents are eating homemade lasagna? No way.) You may need to get to know some American families better so they stop coming off like clickbait parenting story caricatures created mostly so readers can feel judgmental.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:17 PM on May 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh, knives.

I don't like to share videos of my kid with the internet, a censored still should be enough.

This is my daughter at 2 and a half years old helping with food prep. We were still working on finger placement, she is much better now. She will happily prep enough fruit for 6 people.

We showed the video to friends, and the reactions went from 'awesome!' to concerned to a couple not speaking to us anymore after I told them that in my family children learn to handle sharp tools by the age of 6.

I love the fact that some times she wears her princess crown and ballerina tutu all day long, but when she is going to use a knife to cook she requires tattoos on her arms and a sleeveless undershirt to show them off.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 4:39 PM on May 10, 2016 [6 favorites]