Two viewpoints both alike in dignity in fair NYC where we lay our scene
June 3, 2016 10:22 AM Subscribe
It is telling that the "awesome" article writer can only muster one photo of totally empty tables and one photo from the seventies to illustrate her argument.
But that's okay - the genuinely awesome thing about summer is that everyone wants to sit outside with the noise and the bugs and the filth and the horrible strangers, leaving the cool, dim, quiet cafe interior all for me. You do you, outside people, you do you.
posted by Frowner at 10:28 AM on June 3, 2016 [38 favorites]
But that's okay - the genuinely awesome thing about summer is that everyone wants to sit outside with the noise and the bugs and the filth and the horrible strangers, leaving the cool, dim, quiet cafe interior all for me. You do you, outside people, you do you.
posted by Frowner at 10:28 AM on June 3, 2016 [38 favorites]
Sidewalk seating: excellent in some cases, horrible in others. Should be used with care & consideration towards end-users of both seats and sidewalk.
#rejectedslatepitch
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:32 AM on June 3, 2016 [26 favorites]
#rejectedslatepitch
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:32 AM on June 3, 2016 [26 favorites]
Favourited, for the title alone!
posted by the quidnunc kid at 10:32 AM on June 3, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by the quidnunc kid at 10:32 AM on June 3, 2016 [14 favorites]
Part of my job involves NYC sidewalk seating permits so with no ulterior motive whatsoever I am completely in favor of sidewalk seating unless the government revises the sidewalk seating process to remove the part that we get paid to do.
posted by griphus at 10:33 AM on June 3, 2016 [29 favorites]
posted by griphus at 10:33 AM on June 3, 2016 [29 favorites]
we are enemies now
posted by poffin boffin at 10:35 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:35 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I SIT AT OUTSIDE SEATING WITH JORTS AND FLIP FLOPS ON
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:36 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:36 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's awesome because dogs. So go sit inside with your air conditioning and your sad, dogless soul. You do you.
posted by allkindsoftime at 10:37 AM on June 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by allkindsoftime at 10:37 AM on June 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Sidewalk seating is removing a parcel of land devoted to the public for private use, so on those grounds alone I oppose it.
It also happens that that parcel of land happens to be a thoroughfare for pedestrian traffic, so it's actually awful.
I've got a better idea: keep the sidewalk completely clear, and fence off part of the road. Maybe put your tables and chairs where there used to be parking. See how popular that idea is.
I'm really, really tired of pedestrians getting the shaft in this country.
posted by explosion at 10:39 AM on June 3, 2016 [38 favorites]
It also happens that that parcel of land happens to be a thoroughfare for pedestrian traffic, so it's actually awful.
I've got a better idea: keep the sidewalk completely clear, and fence off part of the road. Maybe put your tables and chairs where there used to be parking. See how popular that idea is.
I'm really, really tired of pedestrians getting the shaft in this country.
posted by explosion at 10:39 AM on June 3, 2016 [38 favorites]
I've got a better idea: keep the sidewalk completely clear, and fence off part of the road. Maybe put your tables and chairs where there used to be parking. See how popular that idea is.
Parklets are becoming popular in Seattle, Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco, etc.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:42 AM on June 3, 2016 [19 favorites]
Parklets are becoming popular in Seattle, Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco, etc.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:42 AM on June 3, 2016 [19 favorites]
explosion: "Sidewalk seating is removing a parcel of land devoted to the public for private use, so on those grounds alone I oppose it."
That was my first thought, but the "sidewalk seating" in the photo at the head of the "awesome" article seems pretty clearly to be on the restaurant's own property. So I guess I don't know. Or alternatively we're arguing about different things.
posted by koeselitz at 10:43 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
That was my first thought, but the "sidewalk seating" in the photo at the head of the "awesome" article seems pretty clearly to be on the restaurant's own property. So I guess I don't know. Or alternatively we're arguing about different things.
posted by koeselitz at 10:43 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sidewalk seating is removing a parcel of land devoted to the public for private use, so on those grounds alone I oppose it.
There's recompense to the public for its use to the tune of thousands of dollars per license per year, though:
There's recompense to the public for its use to the tune of thousands of dollars per license per year, though:
Two-year License Fee: $510posted by griphus at 10:44 AM on June 3, 2016 [13 favorites]
Fee for starting, renewing, or assigning DCA consent for all sidewalk café types: $445
Consent Fees for sidewalk space to be paid each year. Please refer to the Consent Fees Charts
Plan Review Fee for Unenclosed and Small Unenclosed Sidewalk Café Applicants: $310
Security Deposit for Unenclosed Sidewalk Café and Small Unenclosed Sidewalk Café Applicants: $1,500 (certified checks only, made payable to New York City Comptroller)
Security Deposit for Enclosed Sidewalk Café Applicants: $4,000 (certified checks only, made payable to New York City Comptroller)
City Planning Fee for Enclosed Sidewalk Café Applicants: $55 per seat with a $1,360 minimum (certified checks or money orders only, made payable to City of New York)
I'm really, really tired of pedestrians getting the shaft in this country.
Oh c'mon. I don't even own a car, but that's a crazy overreaction to this issue. Is there a problem with sidewalks completely blocked by outdoor seating?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 10:45 AM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh c'mon. I don't even own a car, but that's a crazy overreaction to this issue. Is there a problem with sidewalks completely blocked by outdoor seating?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 10:45 AM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is there a problem with sidewalks completely blocked by outdoor seating?
There is if you are a wheelchair user, absolutely.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:46 AM on June 3, 2016 [32 favorites]
There is if you are a wheelchair user, absolutely.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:46 AM on June 3, 2016 [32 favorites]
BENVOLIO
Why Romeo, art thou mad?
ROMEO
Not mad, but bound more than a madman is,
Shut up in prison, kept without my food,
Whipped and tormented...
Let us sit outside instead
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:46 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why Romeo, art thou mad?
ROMEO
Not mad, but bound more than a madman is,
Shut up in prison, kept without my food,
Whipped and tormented...
Let us sit outside instead
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:46 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've got a better idea: keep the sidewalk completely clear, and fence off part of the road. Maybe put your tables and chairs where there used to be parking. See how popular that idea is.(aka Parklet)
living in Boston, these have been really popular and popping up more and more often over the last couple of years. (along with bike racks sized to fit in a regular road parking space)
(on preview: what man of twists and turns said)
posted by bl1nk at 10:47 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pedestrians should not have to stand and wait for their turn to walk. Sidewalk seating or couples on walks. Pick one of them people, the other must be abolished.
posted by idiopath at 10:47 AM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 10:47 AM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also while we're here fuck merchants who think the key to their marketing is putting those sandwich board signs right in the middle of the sidewalk.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:48 AM on June 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 10:48 AM on June 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
Pick one of them people, the other must be abolished.
I am 105% in favor of people who walk side-by-side on busy streets being ticketed.
posted by griphus at 10:49 AM on June 3, 2016 [23 favorites]
I am 105% in favor of people who walk side-by-side on busy streets being ticketed.
posted by griphus at 10:49 AM on June 3, 2016 [23 favorites]
Only metafilter on a Friday could plate of beans sidewalk seating into a sociopolitical offense to our collective mindless existence.
posted by allkindsoftime at 10:53 AM on June 3, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by allkindsoftime at 10:53 AM on June 3, 2016 [28 favorites]
Side Awesome is misleading. If photo 1 depicts sidewalk seating, then my grandma is sidewalk seating. That's a blocked-off outdoor dining area. You can see the sidewalk to the left of it. You cannot build your argument for awesomeness on a foundation of lies.
No, the reality is more often than not a grotty little patio table thrust out into the middle of pedestrian traffic, as shown by Side Stupid. If you enjoy chipping your teeth on silverware as passers-by bump into the back of your chair every two minutes, cool, but don't involve the rest of us in your kink. And the "but dogs" argument?? 99 times out of 100 little Snootchie will wander out from under the table to horf at a diseased pidgeon carcass by the curb or whatever and create a high-tension tripwire out of his leash.
Granted, when given the choice I will always take the sidewalk seating anyway, because it's fun to be outdoors. But I harbor no illusions that it isn't awful, and that I'm not making the immoral choice.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:54 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
No, the reality is more often than not a grotty little patio table thrust out into the middle of pedestrian traffic, as shown by Side Stupid. If you enjoy chipping your teeth on silverware as passers-by bump into the back of your chair every two minutes, cool, but don't involve the rest of us in your kink. And the "but dogs" argument?? 99 times out of 100 little Snootchie will wander out from under the table to horf at a diseased pidgeon carcass by the curb or whatever and create a high-tension tripwire out of his leash.
Granted, when given the choice I will always take the sidewalk seating anyway, because it's fun to be outdoors. But I harbor no illusions that it isn't awful, and that I'm not making the immoral choice.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:54 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
allkindsoftime: Only metafilter on a Friday could plate of beans sidewalk seating into a sociopolitical offense to our collective mindless existence.
Oh, you should see the other days of the week.
posted by dr_dank at 10:55 AM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh, you should see the other days of the week.
posted by dr_dank at 10:55 AM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
After we have solved all the problems of capitalism and have arrived at a post-scarcity utopia, I want to propose that we develop little enclaves based on attitudes toward sidewalk seating, sidewalk walking and (most controversially) how to balance correctly the use of shared bike/walk paths. I myself will actually live in an enclave where everyone loves sidewalk seating so that I can be by myself in the restaurant, but the rest of you can chose to live among like-minded peers.
posted by Frowner at 10:55 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:55 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I suggest middle-of-the-street seating as a replacement for sidewalk seating. People who are driving can get out of their cars and walk around you. I'm sure it would work out.
posted by idiopath at 11:00 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 11:00 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
After we have solved all the problems of capitalism and have arrived at a post-scarcity utopia, I want to propose that we develop little enclaves based on attitudes toward sidewalk seating, sidewalk walking and (most controversially) how to balance correctly the use of shared bike/walk paths.
Shared bike/walk paths?? Bikes are vehicles, dedicated cycle path or I want no part of your dystopic future!
posted by Dysk at 11:01 AM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Shared bike/walk paths?? Bikes are vehicles, dedicated cycle path or I want no part of your dystopic future!
posted by Dysk at 11:01 AM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
but the "sidewalk seating" in the photo at the head of the "awesome" article seems pretty clearly to be on the restaurant's own property
I'd say about 1/3 of the restaurants here do it on what is obviously their own property or somewhere where foot traffic is already impeded (by large planters or columns or what have you), another 1/3 do it in a reasonably unobtrusive way responsible for only minor inconveniences, and the remaining 1/3 are so fucking egregious that i want to hunt them like the most dangerous game
posted by poffin boffin at 11:01 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'd say about 1/3 of the restaurants here do it on what is obviously their own property or somewhere where foot traffic is already impeded (by large planters or columns or what have you), another 1/3 do it in a reasonably unobtrusive way responsible for only minor inconveniences, and the remaining 1/3 are so fucking egregious that i want to hunt them like the most dangerous game
posted by poffin boffin at 11:01 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm generally not for sidewalk seating, because sidewalks are outside. Also, the sun. If you could put sidewalks inside a building, and you can pull a shade, I would then be for sidewalk seating.
Unless it's raining (not kidding). A small bit of rain, a nice umbrella at a table to keep you dry, most people staying at home because they don't know what they are missing. . . perfect.
posted by SpacemanStix at 11:02 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unless it's raining (not kidding). A small bit of rain, a nice umbrella at a table to keep you dry, most people staying at home because they don't know what they are missing. . . perfect.
posted by SpacemanStix at 11:02 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I used to really enjoy sitting outside on a bench facing the alley next to a cafe I went to for years -- of course, there was that time I started a fight by throwing my latte into the laughing face of the driver of a car full of college kids who made the mistake of going past the bench at reckless speed a second time.
posted by jamjam at 11:03 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jamjam at 11:03 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
You cannot build your argument for awesomeness on a foundation of lies.
That is correct but you also can't be the NYC government and not take a cut off the top of literally anything any business does on public land (which I support). So! They created tiers of sidewalk seating types to make sure they're covered on all bases:
There are three types of sidewalk cafés:
Enclosed sidewalk café: An enclosed area on the public sidewalk in front of the restaurant that is constructed predominantly of light materials such as glass, plastic, or lightweight metal.
Unenclosed sidewalk café: An outdoor area on the public sidewalk in front of the restaurant that contains removable tables and chairs.
Small unenclosed sidewalk café: An unenclosed sidewalk café containing no more than a single row of tables and chairs next to the building. The tables and chairs can occupy no more than 4 feet, 6 inches of the public sidewalk.
Now I'm squinting but I am relatively sure that is Cafe Fiorello and those planters are mobile and that's sidewalk under those chairs. Whatever that restaurant is is also loaded because it's close to $15K/year to have that much area cordoned off for yourself.
Anyway, that's the longest and best-researched "well actually" I've written yet.
posted by griphus at 11:06 AM on June 3, 2016 [23 favorites]
That is correct but you also can't be the NYC government and not take a cut off the top of literally anything any business does on public land (which I support). So! They created tiers of sidewalk seating types to make sure they're covered on all bases:
There are three types of sidewalk cafés:
Enclosed sidewalk café: An enclosed area on the public sidewalk in front of the restaurant that is constructed predominantly of light materials such as glass, plastic, or lightweight metal.
Unenclosed sidewalk café: An outdoor area on the public sidewalk in front of the restaurant that contains removable tables and chairs.
Small unenclosed sidewalk café: An unenclosed sidewalk café containing no more than a single row of tables and chairs next to the building. The tables and chairs can occupy no more than 4 feet, 6 inches of the public sidewalk.
Now I'm squinting but I am relatively sure that is Cafe Fiorello and those planters are mobile and that's sidewalk under those chairs. Whatever that restaurant is is also loaded because it's close to $15K/year to have that much area cordoned off for yourself.
Anyway, that's the longest and best-researched "well actually" I've written yet.
posted by griphus at 11:06 AM on June 3, 2016 [23 favorites]
There's recompense to the public for its use to the tune of thousands of dollars per license per year, though:
I suspect those thousands of dollars per year compare pretty poorly to the value of, say, a hundred square feet of prime, ground-level, street-facing Manhattan real estate. Those fees, while not nothing, still amount to subsidizing the privatization of a public good.
posted by jedicus at 11:07 AM on June 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
I suspect those thousands of dollars per year compare pretty poorly to the value of, say, a hundred square feet of prime, ground-level, street-facing Manhattan real estate. Those fees, while not nothing, still amount to subsidizing the privatization of a public good.
posted by jedicus at 11:07 AM on June 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I feel this is specifically a "sidewalk seating in New York City is a hotly-contested battle of wills." At least in SF, parklets are awesome.
posted by psoas at 11:11 AM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by psoas at 11:11 AM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
As far as I know, sidewalk permits are seasonal, so the cafe is essentially leasing that land from the city for several months out of the year. They also can't build permanent structures on it, so they're not getting 100% of the value of that real estate.
posted by griphus at 11:11 AM on June 3, 2016
posted by griphus at 11:11 AM on June 3, 2016
After we have solved all the problems of capitalism and have arrived at a post-scarcity utopia, I want to propose that we develop little enclaves based on attitudes toward sidewalk seating, sidewalk walking and (most controversially) how to balance correctly the use of shared bike/walk paths
Which groups get stars on their bellies?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:11 AM on June 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Which groups get stars on their bellies?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:11 AM on June 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Sidewalk seating is removing a parcel of land devoted to the public for private use, so on those grounds alone I oppose it.
It also happens that that parcel of land happens to be a thoroughfare for pedestrian traffic, so it's actually awful.
I've got a better idea: keep the sidewalk completely clear, and fence off part of the road. Maybe put your tables and chairs where there used to be parking. See how popular that idea is.
I'm really, really tired of pedestrians getting the shaft in this country.
I'm sorry but I couldn't help laughing at your comment -- it seems to have been generated by an internet outrage algorithm. Take something that is increasing in popularity or at least some people enjoy, add a conflict with a classical liberal ideal (collective ownership), an element of identity politics (pedestrianism), strong language and sentiment, and subtract a balanced discussion of pros and cons.
Wonder what the result would be when you put in something like horseback riding as the trend, access to voting as the liberal ideal, anosmics as the identity group, and the outrage voiced in the style of a sea captain. "Yarr, these horseback riders are being favored because they can access polling places located in rolling meadows and anosmics who can't smell the horse manure are stepping in it! Off the plank with 'em!" is my preliminary attempt.
posted by fraxil at 11:14 AM on June 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
It also happens that that parcel of land happens to be a thoroughfare for pedestrian traffic, so it's actually awful.
I've got a better idea: keep the sidewalk completely clear, and fence off part of the road. Maybe put your tables and chairs where there used to be parking. See how popular that idea is.
I'm really, really tired of pedestrians getting the shaft in this country.
I'm sorry but I couldn't help laughing at your comment -- it seems to have been generated by an internet outrage algorithm. Take something that is increasing in popularity or at least some people enjoy, add a conflict with a classical liberal ideal (collective ownership), an element of identity politics (pedestrianism), strong language and sentiment, and subtract a balanced discussion of pros and cons.
Wonder what the result would be when you put in something like horseback riding as the trend, access to voting as the liberal ideal, anosmics as the identity group, and the outrage voiced in the style of a sea captain. "Yarr, these horseback riders are being favored because they can access polling places located in rolling meadows and anosmics who can't smell the horse manure are stepping in it! Off the plank with 'em!" is my preliminary attempt.
posted by fraxil at 11:14 AM on June 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
Horseback riding is also seasonal so you are not getting 100% of the value of the horse, just FYI.
posted by griphus at 11:15 AM on June 3, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by griphus at 11:15 AM on June 3, 2016 [22 favorites]
I love the idea of sidewalk seating--mostly because they fall into the first category griphus outlines above--as it is temporary. These patios in front of restaurants and bars will be gone come November 1st here in Ontario, but until then I will laud their existence. But only if you have an overhang or something. I mean, I like being outside, being warm with a beer, but I don't want direct sunlight overhead. It makes me headachy and then beer is no fun.
posted by Kitteh at 11:20 AM on June 3, 2016
posted by Kitteh at 11:20 AM on June 3, 2016
nah man you just have to swap out their summer hooves for the winter hooves and it's all good, it's like 10 minutes at the farrier
posted by poffin boffin at 11:21 AM on June 3, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:21 AM on June 3, 2016 [22 favorites]
I'm sittin' on the sidewalk cafe
Watchin' the plebs squeeze their way, throo
I'm just sittin' on the sidewalk cafe
Wastin' time
posted by Kabanos at 11:22 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Watchin' the plebs squeeze their way, throo
I'm just sittin' on the sidewalk cafe
Wastin' time
posted by Kabanos at 11:22 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pedestrians should not have to stand and wait for their turn to walk.
Yeah, like that horrible "crosswalk" fad. Whatever happened to those?
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:31 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, like that horrible "crosswalk" fad. Whatever happened to those?
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:31 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
As far as I know, sidewalk permits are seasonal, so the cafe is essentially leasing that land from the city for several months out of the year. They also can't build permanent structures on it, so they're not getting 100% of the value of that real estate.
Short-term leases usually carry a premium, not a discount. And yes, they aren't getting 100% of the value, but that's always true of renting.
It wouldn't be hard to tie the fees to local rents or real estate values. Just compare it to the cost/rent per square foot of the restaurant itself.
posted by jedicus at 11:34 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Short-term leases usually carry a premium, not a discount. And yes, they aren't getting 100% of the value, but that's always true of renting.
It wouldn't be hard to tie the fees to local rents or real estate values. Just compare it to the cost/rent per square foot of the restaurant itself.
posted by jedicus at 11:34 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I like sidewalk seating a lot more now that they're non-smoking here.
posted by jeather at 11:36 AM on June 3, 2016
posted by jeather at 11:36 AM on June 3, 2016
This is also good if they die suddenly, because then they're already ready to start haunting in Ghost Horse Form
So there are three kinds of Haunting Permits available in NYC (these are species-agnostic as the city has determined all ghosts have roughly the same level of intelligence):
-Stationary haunting: the ghost remains in one locale, and the cost of the permit depends on the number of square feet and type of haunting (auditory, visual, tactile, etc.) The ghost may leave the area at any time, but they are not allowed to haunt (as defined by S102.B of the NYC Spectre Code) outside of their assigned area.
-Mobile haunting: the ghost can travel in one of the set Haunting Zones of NYC which roughly correspond to neighborhoods, but please check with the Zoning Board before starting to haunt. The permit applies to all kind of hauntings except sliming for which a Slime Permit has to be applied for with the Dept. of Paranormal Services
-Citywide Haunting: This kind of permit can only be applied if the death was somehow notable to the City of New York. It is a lengthy process to get this permit, and usually it is only held by notable people such as wealthy businesspeople, politicians, celebrities and so on.
posted by griphus at 11:36 AM on June 3, 2016 [56 favorites]
So there are three kinds of Haunting Permits available in NYC (these are species-agnostic as the city has determined all ghosts have roughly the same level of intelligence):
-Stationary haunting: the ghost remains in one locale, and the cost of the permit depends on the number of square feet and type of haunting (auditory, visual, tactile, etc.) The ghost may leave the area at any time, but they are not allowed to haunt (as defined by S102.B of the NYC Spectre Code) outside of their assigned area.
-Mobile haunting: the ghost can travel in one of the set Haunting Zones of NYC which roughly correspond to neighborhoods, but please check with the Zoning Board before starting to haunt. The permit applies to all kind of hauntings except sliming for which a Slime Permit has to be applied for with the Dept. of Paranormal Services
-Citywide Haunting: This kind of permit can only be applied if the death was somehow notable to the City of New York. It is a lengthy process to get this permit, and usually it is only held by notable people such as wealthy businesspeople, politicians, celebrities and so on.
posted by griphus at 11:36 AM on June 3, 2016 [56 favorites]
It wouldn't be hard to tie the fees to local rents or real estate values.
They already do!
this is the weirdest fucking thread
posted by griphus at 11:36 AM on June 3, 2016 [13 favorites]
They already do!
this is the weirdest fucking thread
posted by griphus at 11:36 AM on June 3, 2016 [13 favorites]
Nell lists off what she believes to be the negatives associated with sidewalk seating: the noise, the detritus, the ogling, the dog pee, and the congestion.
Outdoor seating, with its wind that blows the napkins and paper cups away, is one of those weird eddies in the generally progressive flow of human ingenuity where we just insert ourselves into a broken situation over and over again without attempting to fix or even acknowledge that it's broken. Maybe they could put out little wind cubbies for low-density items? Or just use heavy mugs? Or anything at all? It's fine, outdoor seating is fine, I guess, but the bullheaded refusal to tackle the Paper Cup Problem just sours me on the whole thing.
posted by invitapriore at 11:37 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Outdoor seating, with its wind that blows the napkins and paper cups away, is one of those weird eddies in the generally progressive flow of human ingenuity where we just insert ourselves into a broken situation over and over again without attempting to fix or even acknowledge that it's broken. Maybe they could put out little wind cubbies for low-density items? Or just use heavy mugs? Or anything at all? It's fine, outdoor seating is fine, I guess, but the bullheaded refusal to tackle the Paper Cup Problem just sours me on the whole thing.
posted by invitapriore at 11:37 AM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
On a more serious note, it's always been my impression that sidewalk seating is both a sign of a healthy, walkable neighborhood and probably promotes pedestrianism indirectly. I associate the suburban formula of cars+parking logs+indoor/air-conditioned restaurants with the opposite trend.
posted by fraxil at 11:39 AM on June 3, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by fraxil at 11:39 AM on June 3, 2016 [19 favorites]
this is the weirdest fucking thread
We are in a subject you know something about.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:41 AM on June 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
We are in a subject you know something about.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:41 AM on June 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
A lot of my job involves ghosts.
posted by griphus at 11:42 AM on June 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by griphus at 11:42 AM on June 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
the best outdoor seating imo is the place on W4th street because it's a little below street level and there is a nice overhang, so you're outdoors but not within sidewalk traffic. the worst outdoor seating was that bbq place in brooklyn where you fill your dented prison lunchroom tray with half a pound of delicious flesh and then sit outside in their "seating area" which is just a bare charmless vacant lot with absolutely no shade anywhere so you sit at these splintery wooden picnic tables in the blazing summer sun weeping into your brisket
posted by poffin boffin at 11:42 AM on June 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:42 AM on June 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
So there are three kinds of Haunting Permits available in NYC (these are species-agnostic as the city has determined all ghosts have roughly the same level of intelligence):
That's the perfect elevator pitch for Ghostbusters III!
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:43 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's the perfect elevator pitch for Ghostbusters III!
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:43 AM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd like to loudly complain that the city isn't doing something which I assume they're not doing based sheerly on my own ignorance
posted by beerperson at 11:44 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 11:44 AM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
sidewalk seating is both a sign of a healthy, walkable neighborhood and probably promotes pedestrianism indirectly
Possibly it's healthy and pedestrianism-promoting in a neighborhood developing walkability, and pedestrianism-impeding in a neighborhood already full of walkers.
posted by clew at 11:46 AM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Possibly it's healthy and pedestrianism-promoting in a neighborhood developing walkability, and pedestrianism-impeding in a neighborhood already full of walkers.
posted by clew at 11:46 AM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sidewalk seating: excellent in some cases, horrible in others. Should be used with care & consideration towards end-users of both seats and sidewalk.
#rejectedslatepitch
That's really it, eh? Depends on the size of the sidewalk (among other implementation considerations.) Done correctly, it's fine.
I like sidewalk seating a lot more now that they're non-smoking here.
I'd like it a lot better if they banned the dogs. (Sorry, allkindsoftime. Dogs suck. Literally.)
posted by mrgrimm at 11:50 AM on June 3, 2016
#rejectedslatepitch
That's really it, eh? Depends on the size of the sidewalk (among other implementation considerations.) Done correctly, it's fine.
I like sidewalk seating a lot more now that they're non-smoking here.
I'd like it a lot better if they banned the dogs. (Sorry, allkindsoftime. Dogs suck. Literally.)
posted by mrgrimm at 11:50 AM on June 3, 2016
Fergawdsakes. European (socialist!!) cities have been doing this for millennia. Paris, London, Barcelona, Munich, etc.
But in the USA seasonal sidewalk seating is an affront to pedestrians and the disabled? Should be illegal?
This site never fails to amaze me...
posted by jeff-o-matic at 11:51 AM on June 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
But in the USA seasonal sidewalk seating is an affront to pedestrians and the disabled? Should be illegal?
This site never fails to amaze me...
posted by jeff-o-matic at 11:51 AM on June 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
They already do!
Sorry, that wasn't clear from your earlier comment about the fees. Everything else was a flat fee (or only related to the size/type of seating), so I assumed that was true of the consent fee as well.
However, there are only 2 zones (basically Manhattan through 96th St vs "everything else"), so it's not really tied to local real estate values, other than a premium for lower Manhattan.
posted by jedicus at 11:52 AM on June 3, 2016
Sorry, that wasn't clear from your earlier comment about the fees. Everything else was a flat fee (or only related to the size/type of seating), so I assumed that was true of the consent fee as well.
However, there are only 2 zones (basically Manhattan through 96th St vs "everything else"), so it's not really tied to local real estate values, other than a premium for lower Manhattan.
posted by jedicus at 11:52 AM on June 3, 2016
There's a certain percentage of the population which regards automotive exhaust as the best marinade.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:55 AM on June 3, 2016
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:55 AM on June 3, 2016
I suspect the overlap of pro-sidewalk-seating folks and pro-Olympics-in-Boston folks in the Boston area would be large.
This is the kind of thing that's charming and quaint for people who view the city as a place to visit, and annoying for people who view the city as a place to live.
I've seen restaurants where their storefront is recessed from the sidewalk compared to neighboring buildings and then have a patio in front for dining. That's awesome. I'm opposing the sort of "we just narrowed the sidewalk by 2/3 so that the restaurant has more space, and pedestrians are inconvenienced.
posted by explosion at 12:03 PM on June 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is the kind of thing that's charming and quaint for people who view the city as a place to visit, and annoying for people who view the city as a place to live.
I've seen restaurants where their storefront is recessed from the sidewalk compared to neighboring buildings and then have a patio in front for dining. That's awesome. I'm opposing the sort of "we just narrowed the sidewalk by 2/3 so that the restaurant has more space, and pedestrians are inconvenienced.
posted by explosion at 12:03 PM on June 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've got a better idea: keep the sidewalk completely clear, and fence off part of the road. Maybe put your tables and chairs where there used to be parking. See how popular that idea is.
They've tried this at a few places in seattle, and it's actually AWESOME. The outdoor seating area gets to be nice and big and wide and roomy, the sidewalk gets to be normal sized, and everyone is happy. Usually, they even have room for plants!
The only downside is that since there's a sidewalk between the seating and the restaurant, if it's a place with a bar and you order a drink... they have to carry it outside for you, and you're forbidden. This sounds ok, but some places don't have table service to the outside seating(lets say it's a bar place that only serves little snacks. The upshot is, the place i'm thinking of lets you bring your own food and just order drinks from them).
On a more serious note, it's always been my impression that sidewalk seating is both a sign of a healthy, walkable neighborhood and probably promotes pedestrianism indirectly. I associate the suburban formula of cars+parking logs+indoor/air-conditioned restaurants with the opposite trend.
I completely agree. Barren, sterile sidewalks with no outdoor seating or decorations always feels like the bad kind of urban development to me. It never feels like a neighborhood. I associate it with the crappy parts of medium sized cities downtowns(especially in the US). Sidewalk seating makes it feel like a bustling metropolis dammit.
And yes, i'm fully aware of sidewalk width considerations which like... this is why you need a planning and approvals process. Don't use the shittiest examples of something being executed to explain why it shouldn't exist. All that justifies is regulation against shittiness, not that the idea itself is shitty in concept.
posted by emptythought at 12:04 PM on June 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
They've tried this at a few places in seattle, and it's actually AWESOME. The outdoor seating area gets to be nice and big and wide and roomy, the sidewalk gets to be normal sized, and everyone is happy. Usually, they even have room for plants!
The only downside is that since there's a sidewalk between the seating and the restaurant, if it's a place with a bar and you order a drink... they have to carry it outside for you, and you're forbidden. This sounds ok, but some places don't have table service to the outside seating(lets say it's a bar place that only serves little snacks. The upshot is, the place i'm thinking of lets you bring your own food and just order drinks from them).
On a more serious note, it's always been my impression that sidewalk seating is both a sign of a healthy, walkable neighborhood and probably promotes pedestrianism indirectly. I associate the suburban formula of cars+parking logs+indoor/air-conditioned restaurants with the opposite trend.
I completely agree. Barren, sterile sidewalks with no outdoor seating or decorations always feels like the bad kind of urban development to me. It never feels like a neighborhood. I associate it with the crappy parts of medium sized cities downtowns(especially in the US). Sidewalk seating makes it feel like a bustling metropolis dammit.
And yes, i'm fully aware of sidewalk width considerations which like... this is why you need a planning and approvals process. Don't use the shittiest examples of something being executed to explain why it shouldn't exist. All that justifies is regulation against shittiness, not that the idea itself is shitty in concept.
posted by emptythought at 12:04 PM on June 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
However, there are only 2 zones (basically Manhattan through 96th St vs "everything else"), so it's not really tied to local real estate values, other than a premium for lower Manhattan.
I think, but can't prove, that has to do with the fact that sidewalk seating is zoned to the extent that there's very little outside of Manhattan (I mean that's obviously a function of demand as well) and tightly zoned within Manhattan. I'd actually love to see a map of storefront retail real estate prices in Manhattan to compare with that map.
posted by griphus at 12:09 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think, but can't prove, that has to do with the fact that sidewalk seating is zoned to the extent that there's very little outside of Manhattan (I mean that's obviously a function of demand as well) and tightly zoned within Manhattan. I'd actually love to see a map of storefront retail real estate prices in Manhattan to compare with that map.
posted by griphus at 12:09 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
(the dots on that map don't scale and start crowding so you might have to zoom in to see the zones)
posted by griphus at 12:10 PM on June 3, 2016
posted by griphus at 12:10 PM on June 3, 2016
I live in downtown Chicago. And yes, sidewalk seating occasionally makes walking down the street a little (5% more) tricky. Having to step to the side and say "excuse me" while traversing the sidewalks is an inconvenience. I guess. Technically.
I'd rather have people out on the streets during the summer interacting with each other... scooting chairs in and out, saying "excuse me," and yes, even LOOKING at each other than some wide open thoroughfare for people who need to get to destination XYZ in 20 seconds on foot goddamnit.
And for the most part, sidewalk seating is 100% unobtrusive. It's part of the change of seasons and adds to quality of life in a crowded city.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 12:13 PM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'd rather have people out on the streets during the summer interacting with each other... scooting chairs in and out, saying "excuse me," and yes, even LOOKING at each other than some wide open thoroughfare for people who need to get to destination XYZ in 20 seconds on foot goddamnit.
And for the most part, sidewalk seating is 100% unobtrusive. It's part of the change of seasons and adds to quality of life in a crowded city.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 12:13 PM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
This is the kind of thing that's charming and quaint for people who view the city as a place to visit, and annoying for people who view the city as a place to live.
I live in the city, have always lived in the city, work in the city, and walk almost everywhere. I like outdoor seating and don't find it to be a meaningful inconvenience.
I've heard this reasoning trotted out before and it always seems like a huge strawman. I don't haven't even heard anyone who lives in the city, at least in seattle, be anti-outdoor-seating(yet). And most places here have it permanently installed year round, not just for summer(although some do the summer thing, yea)
posted by emptythought at 12:16 PM on June 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
I live in the city, have always lived in the city, work in the city, and walk almost everywhere. I like outdoor seating and don't find it to be a meaningful inconvenience.
I've heard this reasoning trotted out before and it always seems like a huge strawman. I don't haven't even heard anyone who lives in the city, at least in seattle, be anti-outdoor-seating(yet). And most places here have it permanently installed year round, not just for summer(although some do the summer thing, yea)
posted by emptythought at 12:16 PM on June 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
There is if you are a wheelchair user, absolutely.
Is this a real thing though? I realize that might come off as assholey or offensive, but the permitting process seems to be fairly thorough as far as leaving a minimum amount of space(which always seems like enough for something big like a pallet jack even, much less a wheelchair or mobility scooter). Like, enough for someone to pass another couple people with a wheelchair even.
I can think of one or two times, on skinny side streets i've seen it be a 1.5-person-width space. And that was not on a heavily trafficed sidewalk. It was a pretty barren one, people wise. And this is across many many cities ive visited.
posted by emptythought at 12:19 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is this a real thing though? I realize that might come off as assholey or offensive, but the permitting process seems to be fairly thorough as far as leaving a minimum amount of space(which always seems like enough for something big like a pallet jack even, much less a wheelchair or mobility scooter). Like, enough for someone to pass another couple people with a wheelchair even.
I can think of one or two times, on skinny side streets i've seen it be a 1.5-person-width space. And that was not on a heavily trafficed sidewalk. It was a pretty barren one, people wise. And this is across many many cities ive visited.
posted by emptythought at 12:19 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's also entirely possible that we're all arguing past one another, because how it's implemented in different cities is different, and the Seattle way is just fine, and the Boston/Cambridge way isn't.
After all, your city is newer, and the roads and sidewalks are generally wider than the cow-paths we call roads.
posted by explosion at 12:19 PM on June 3, 2016
After all, your city is newer, and the roads and sidewalks are generally wider than the cow-paths we call roads.
posted by explosion at 12:19 PM on June 3, 2016
@explosion Go to Paris or Munich and compare sidewalks to Boston's. Yet... life goes on.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 12:21 PM on June 3, 2016
posted by jeff-o-matic at 12:21 PM on June 3, 2016
I suspect the overlap of pro-sidewalk-seating folks and pro-Olympics-in-Boston folks in the Boston area would be large.
You're talking about a city where the residents are allowed to steal public taxpayer land from each other whenever there's a blizzard simply for the privilege of parking an automobile. I suspect your facile metaphor has some deep, deep flaws.
I am pro-sidewalk-seating and anti-Olympics-in-Boston, because, jesus fuck, people, there are more important things to get worked up about than whether or not a few table and chair compresses your sidewalks (and sidewalks are generally pretty generous in many commercial areas of Boston where restaurants are located).
One of those more important things to get worked up about is the sort of naked contractor money grab that totally filled the Boston Olympics bid.
posted by bl1nk at 12:22 PM on June 3, 2016
You're talking about a city where the residents are allowed to steal public taxpayer land from each other whenever there's a blizzard simply for the privilege of parking an automobile. I suspect your facile metaphor has some deep, deep flaws.
I am pro-sidewalk-seating and anti-Olympics-in-Boston, because, jesus fuck, people, there are more important things to get worked up about than whether or not a few table and chair compresses your sidewalks (and sidewalks are generally pretty generous in many commercial areas of Boston where restaurants are located).
One of those more important things to get worked up about is the sort of naked contractor money grab that totally filled the Boston Olympics bid.
posted by bl1nk at 12:22 PM on June 3, 2016
But if there weren't outdoor seating in the world, I would have missed my favorite occurrence from earlier tonight-- I'm sitting eating dinner alone, in sidewalk seating. And biking past I see a man, riding without holding on to the handlebars (fairly competently). And then a woman gently making fun of him, riding just behind. And then the guy, flustered, says "I'm just trying to impress you!" And the woman, not quite getting it, goes "Wait, what?" And then as she rides past I realize I know her, and she is in fact awesome and slightly unaware of her own awesomeness, and I'm free to laugh joyously at them.
Did I also mention it's beautiful, sunset isn't until 9:45pm, and here of course there are plenty of separated bike lanes? Dysk is right, they're a required part of the utopia. (I also feel that way because I got the hole in my tire fixed today.)
No opinions on NYC seating but I'm glad to see the SF and Boston parklets-- I don't think they existed when I lived in either place, and they look pretty great.
posted by nat at 12:24 PM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Did I also mention it's beautiful, sunset isn't until 9:45pm, and here of course there are plenty of separated bike lanes? Dysk is right, they're a required part of the utopia. (I also feel that way because I got the hole in my tire fixed today.)
No opinions on NYC seating but I'm glad to see the SF and Boston parklets-- I don't think they existed when I lived in either place, and they look pretty great.
posted by nat at 12:24 PM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is this a real thing though?
Yes, it absolutely 100% is. Why would you even question that fully abled people do not notice and/or care about disabled people's accessibility in public spaces? People act like it's this incredible imposition to let someone by in a wheelchair, or when someone using a cane or walker DARES to move slowly before them.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:29 PM on June 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
Yes, it absolutely 100% is. Why would you even question that fully abled people do not notice and/or care about disabled people's accessibility in public spaces? People act like it's this incredible imposition to let someone by in a wheelchair, or when someone using a cane or walker DARES to move slowly before them.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:29 PM on June 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
it's 2016 can we please stop using "well I'VE never seen it happen so therefore it's not a real problem" as a valid citation for the absence or presence of a negative societal phenomena
posted by poffin boffin at 12:30 PM on June 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 12:30 PM on June 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
Jesus christ on life support... the USA has better ADA accessibility than any other country.
Do we really need to legally ban seasonal sidewalk seating? Really?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 12:33 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Do we really need to legally ban seasonal sidewalk seating? Really?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 12:33 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
To be clear i meant "constructed in such a way that there is not room to fit through", not people being assholes.
Assholes are going to asshole everywhere at any and all times. That's not really something you can engineer to do anything but slightly negate.
posted by emptythought at 12:33 PM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Assholes are going to asshole everywhere at any and all times. That's not really something you can engineer to do anything but slightly negate.
posted by emptythought at 12:33 PM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
oh yeah then really it's kind of a toss-up? people will just straight up not remember that impeding/narrowing straightforward access to a curb cut leaves wheelchair users totally screwed. also obvsly no one should have to make a 3-point turn backwards into the curb cut just to go around the corner.
on the upper west side the sidewalks are wide enough for entire farmer's markets to set up and still have room for the normal pedestrian traffic. you could literally open an entire new restaurant on some of the sidewalks uptown. and again, down in the west village, the sidewalks are ridiculously narrow. so if you have restaurant seating on the inside of the sidewalk and hydrants/trash collection/mailboxes/etc on the outside edge of the sidewalk then the actual usable pedestrian space is obnoxiously tight. god forbid there's scaffolding nearby, you might as well just run headfirst into auto traffic.
also here is a thing i just found about sidewalk widths in manhattan
posted by poffin boffin at 12:55 PM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
on the upper west side the sidewalks are wide enough for entire farmer's markets to set up and still have room for the normal pedestrian traffic. you could literally open an entire new restaurant on some of the sidewalks uptown. and again, down in the west village, the sidewalks are ridiculously narrow. so if you have restaurant seating on the inside of the sidewalk and hydrants/trash collection/mailboxes/etc on the outside edge of the sidewalk then the actual usable pedestrian space is obnoxiously tight. god forbid there's scaffolding nearby, you might as well just run headfirst into auto traffic.
also here is a thing i just found about sidewalk widths in manhattan
posted by poffin boffin at 12:55 PM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Do we really need to legally ban seasonal sidewalk seating? Really?
yes, as has definitely been argued in this thread and not just in your weirdo imagination
posted by beerperson at 1:00 PM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
yes, as has definitely been argued in this thread and not just in your weirdo imagination
posted by beerperson at 1:00 PM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's noisier in the restaurant than the noises from the street. And how can someone who says "Luckily, for we" when it should be "us" be correct?
posted by Obscure Reference at 1:04 PM on June 3, 2016
posted by Obscure Reference at 1:04 PM on June 3, 2016
I love sidewalk seating in Chicago, for the most part. But I have to admit, I've seen some recent implementations that have me scratching my head. Specifically, I have to walk from ~the Wrigley building on Mich Ave to ~across the street from the Bean to get from work to my physical therapist. It's like 5 or so blocks. Recently, such fine establishments as Red Robin Burger Express and Naf Naf Grill have established sidewalk seating along my route on MICHIGAN FUCKING AVENUE. This is like epicenter of tourist-ville plus working-folks-area plus running-errands-(or going to PT, say)-land.
So while the Mich Ave sidewalks are fairly wide, the sidewalk seating is big and I don't think there's enough room for 2 wheelchair users to pass each other in the space left (which I always had heard was the minimum). It gets to be quite the bottleneck for me, a relatively able bodied person who just wants to get back to work at a speed faster than a 3 year old (and his entire extended tourist family surrounding him and taking pictures) can walk.
I don't think it should be banned at all; and in most neighborhoods the foot traffic is not so dense that it is a hindrance. I honestly love sitting outside for the 4 months of the year it doesn't require a down coat. But I do have to shake my head at Noodles & Company needing to put 4 tables out in front of their restaurant on a part of the busiest pedestrian street in this city where the sidewalk itself isn't wide enough to support it.
posted by misskaz at 1:11 PM on June 3, 2016
So while the Mich Ave sidewalks are fairly wide, the sidewalk seating is big and I don't think there's enough room for 2 wheelchair users to pass each other in the space left (which I always had heard was the minimum). It gets to be quite the bottleneck for me, a relatively able bodied person who just wants to get back to work at a speed faster than a 3 year old (and his entire extended tourist family surrounding him and taking pictures) can walk.
I don't think it should be banned at all; and in most neighborhoods the foot traffic is not so dense that it is a hindrance. I honestly love sitting outside for the 4 months of the year it doesn't require a down coat. But I do have to shake my head at Noodles & Company needing to put 4 tables out in front of their restaurant on a part of the busiest pedestrian street in this city where the sidewalk itself isn't wide enough to support it.
posted by misskaz at 1:11 PM on June 3, 2016
I suggest middle-of-the-street seating as a replacement for sidewalk seating. People who are driving can get out of their cars and walk around you. I'm sure it would work out.
posted by idiopath at 2:00 PM on June 3
i read your name as idiotpath and made your post eponysterical
posted by numaner at 1:16 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by idiopath at 2:00 PM on June 3
i read your name as idiotpath and made your post eponysterical
posted by numaner at 1:16 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can I get a discount on a haunting license if I only manifest during full mooing when Aldeberan is above the horizon?
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:28 PM on June 3, 2016
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:28 PM on June 3, 2016
Is this a real thing though?
Bigger American cities I've been in have large sidewalks and seem generally fine. Smaller cities, including where I live, have a lot narrower sidewalks.
posted by Space Coyote at 1:29 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bigger American cities I've been in have large sidewalks and seem generally fine. Smaller cities, including where I live, have a lot narrower sidewalks.
posted by Space Coyote at 1:29 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, sidewalk (as opposed to patio) seating has become a real pain in my neighborhood, since sidewalks are very narrow. It's hard enough to get by when you're able-bodied; people with mobility problems are screwed, and most of the places also hang speakers to passers by can enjoy whatever kind of programming the restaurant likes.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:32 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:32 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can I get a discount on a haunting license if I only manifest during full mooing when Aldeberan is above the horizon?
So the precedent for this was established in the City of New York v. the Restless Dead of the Church of the Equinox.
Long story short, the city considers these kinds of irregular manifestation restrictions to be self-imposed as they are wholly dependent on the culture of the spectre at the time of death regardless of whether the spectre has control over regularity of the manifestation, as consent to the specific overall details of manifestation was implied at the time of death.
Interestingly, subsidies are available for ghosts who have can establish that they have haunted the city prior to the New Amsterdam-New York changeover and can be applied for at the Dept. of Paranormal Services.
posted by griphus at 1:37 PM on June 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
So the precedent for this was established in the City of New York v. the Restless Dead of the Church of the Equinox.
Long story short, the city considers these kinds of irregular manifestation restrictions to be self-imposed as they are wholly dependent on the culture of the spectre at the time of death regardless of whether the spectre has control over regularity of the manifestation, as consent to the specific overall details of manifestation was implied at the time of death.
Interestingly, subsidies are available for ghosts who have can establish that they have haunted the city prior to the New Amsterdam-New York changeover and can be applied for at the Dept. of Paranormal Services.
posted by griphus at 1:37 PM on June 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
Here in DC outdoor seating is mostly available only in restaurant-heavy areas, and the sidewalks are very wide in those places. Some places have their own fences that stay up year round, and outdoor is open when it's not freezing outside (seriously, it could be low 50's and you could still request to sit outside in some places), others have chairs and tables stacked up at night and laid out in the day, with no fencing. I have never really heard any complaints since there's plenty of space for everybody here. I would suggest that you guys that have a problem with sidewalk seating move down here :)
posted by numaner at 1:40 PM on June 3, 2016
posted by numaner at 1:40 PM on June 3, 2016
the city considers these kinds of irregular manifestation restrictions to be self-imposed as they are wholly dependent on the culture of the spectre at the time of death
Yes, but will they be provided a scheduled time for exclusively haunting the neighborhood pool?
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:41 PM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, but will they be provided a scheduled time for exclusively haunting the neighborhood pool?
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:41 PM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would suggest that you guys that have a problem with sidewalk seating move down here
out of the hot humid frying pan and into the hotter humider fire
posted by poffin boffin at 1:42 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
out of the hot humid frying pan and into the hotter humider fire
posted by poffin boffin at 1:42 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The humidity is actually less potent here than in NYC, I've read, but look at it as like jumping into familiar waters, not unlike how when you move fishes between fishtanks you gotta put some parts of the water from the old tank into the new tank so you won't shock their systems when you move them over.
posted by numaner at 1:47 PM on June 3, 2016
posted by numaner at 1:47 PM on June 3, 2016
Right, sometimes there is room and sometimes there is not room. Nicollet Mall here in Minneapolis has some of the widest sidewalks in the whole city, so it makes sense to allow sidewalk seating. Except that there are places with giant planter boxes that combine with two rows of table seating (plus an aisle) to narrow the huge sidewalk down to a walking area that is only two people wide. People using strollers and wheelchairs are definitely affected. I have been hit by someone else's backpack in these tiny corridors because they turned a little while walking past me. If you walk on the other side of the planter, the buses are inches away from you.
I just had a wonderful anniversary dinner with my husband where we sat outside with a full view of the Tower Bridge. It was a sidewalk next to the Thames, so no vehicles and we were under an awning. The sidewalk that remained outside the seating area was at least 4 people wide.
posted by soelo at 1:49 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just had a wonderful anniversary dinner with my husband where we sat outside with a full view of the Tower Bridge. It was a sidewalk next to the Thames, so no vehicles and we were under an awning. The sidewalk that remained outside the seating area was at least 4 people wide.
posted by soelo at 1:49 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jesus christ on life support... the USA has better ADA accessibility than any other country.
Well, sure, but the ADA is only applicable in the U.S. Many other countries have similar laws on the books too.
posted by psoas at 1:52 PM on June 3, 2016
Well, sure, but the ADA is only applicable in the U.S. Many other countries have similar laws on the books too.
posted by psoas at 1:52 PM on June 3, 2016
Sure. Try negotiating central Paris in a wheelchair. Also, I know the ADA is American.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 1:54 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jeff-o-matic at 1:54 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
so some government buildings refer to handicapable entrances as "ADA Entrances", which I know is meant that it's safe and complicit with the law, but to me it sounds like "HERE'S THE THING YOU MADE US PUT IN! WAAAH!"
posted by numaner at 1:55 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by numaner at 1:55 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sure. Try negotiating central Paris in a wheelchair.
What's the conclusion I'm supposed to draw here? (I genuinely don't know if the point is supposed to be that Paris is very accessible or that it's not.)
posted by andrewesque at 1:57 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
What's the conclusion I'm supposed to draw here? (I genuinely don't know if the point is supposed to be that Paris is very accessible or that it's not.)
posted by andrewesque at 1:57 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
does the ADA apply to american ghosts?
posted by beerperson at 1:58 PM on June 3, 2016
posted by beerperson at 1:58 PM on June 3, 2016
so some government buildings refer to handicapable entrances as "ADA Entrances"
Maybe those are for Department of Defense programmers?
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:59 PM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Maybe those are for Department of Defense programmers?
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:59 PM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
does the ADA apply to american ghosts?
Yes, but only if they can prove they do not have their intangibility. That's gotta filed with the county (or parishes) though, even if you only haunt a city.
posted by numaner at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, but only if they can prove they do not have their intangibility. That's gotta filed with the county (or parishes) though, even if you only haunt a city.
posted by numaner at 2:05 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've got a better idea: keep the sidewalk completely clear, and fence off part of the road. Maybe put your tables and chairs where there used to be parking. See how popular that idea is.
They (sort of) do that in Montreal. In case anyone's keeping count, I live in NYC and happen to like sidewalk seating. I like to grab a beer after taking my dog to the park and I often see my friends walking by.
posted by Drab_Parts at 2:13 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
They (sort of) do that in Montreal. In case anyone's keeping count, I live in NYC and happen to like sidewalk seating. I like to grab a beer after taking my dog to the park and I often see my friends walking by.
posted by Drab_Parts at 2:13 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, but only if they can prove they do not have their intangibility.
And the bureaucracy around that! Here and you thought getting disability was tough...
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:19 PM on June 3, 2016
And the bureaucracy around that! Here and you thought getting disability was tough...
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:19 PM on June 3, 2016
only poltergeists can cut through red tape
posted by beerperson at 2:22 PM on June 3, 2016
posted by beerperson at 2:22 PM on June 3, 2016
that's only because they're the most corrupt! we have a problem with incorporeal influence in our government and we need to just start digging up those bones and Berning them.
posted by numaner at 2:24 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by numaner at 2:24 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
They (sort of) do that in Montreal. In case anyone's keeping count,
IIRC, that is pretty much the norm with terrasses in Montreal; it was the same in Sherbrooke, too.
posted by Kitteh at 2:24 PM on June 3, 2016
IIRC, that is pretty much the norm with terrasses in Montreal; it was the same in Sherbrooke, too.
posted by Kitteh at 2:24 PM on June 3, 2016
Do we really need to legally ban seasonal sidewalk seating? Really?Any one of these measures should suffice for keeping sidewalk congestion to a reasonable level:
- Ban sidewalk seating.
- Ban couples taking walks.
- Move sidewalk seating into the street, but don't close the street.
- Tourist tags, released in a reasonable quanity, during tourist season. Any resident culling the tourist population would be required to show their paid and authorized tourist tag. Special areas would be designated for field-dressing of the game.
- Jetpacks.
Or maybe just make sure that any outdoor seating doesn't contravene existing accessibility laws? (or is that not enough? honest question, I have no idea about ADA rules and enforcement)
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:54 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:54 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
IIRC, that is pretty much the norm with terrasses in Montreal; it was the same in Sherbrooke, too.
I wish I was in Sherbrooke now.
posted by The Gaffer at 3:12 PM on June 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
I do not understand trying to turn what should be a reasonable complaint about pedestrian and wheelchair access into sneering about liberals and hashtags. Talk about your manufactured outrage...
Personally, I love outdoor seating, but some joints do push the limits of their space. And they don't even have the kinds of regulations about this here that they do in NYC. So your only recourse is the Passive-aggressive Side-eye at the manager as you step around their mini table village spilling out into the street.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 3:36 PM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Personally, I love outdoor seating, but some joints do push the limits of their space. And they don't even have the kinds of regulations about this here that they do in NYC. So your only recourse is the Passive-aggressive Side-eye at the manager as you step around their mini table village spilling out into the street.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 3:36 PM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
On a more serious note, it's always been my impression that sidewalk seating is both a sign of a healthy, walkable neighborhood and probably promotes pedestrianism indirectly.
I think I see this from too much of a non-US point of view to fully understand this discussion. I have lived most recently in Amsterdam and Hong Kong, both of which have some of the lowest level of accommodation for cars in the world. Both of which have loads of sidewalk seating. Which I love. Sitting on a canal bank in Amsterdam outside on a summer evening is one of the purest pleasures in life. These are living neighborhoods with people sitting outside and laughing and interacting. It's great to have the option to be inside, but for me the hallmark of the great pedestrian cities has always been the life spilling into the streets.
posted by frumiousb at 3:55 PM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think I see this from too much of a non-US point of view to fully understand this discussion. I have lived most recently in Amsterdam and Hong Kong, both of which have some of the lowest level of accommodation for cars in the world. Both of which have loads of sidewalk seating. Which I love. Sitting on a canal bank in Amsterdam outside on a summer evening is one of the purest pleasures in life. These are living neighborhoods with people sitting outside and laughing and interacting. It's great to have the option to be inside, but for me the hallmark of the great pedestrian cities has always been the life spilling into the streets.
posted by frumiousb at 3:55 PM on June 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's awesome because dogs. So go sit inside with your air conditioning and your sad, dogless soul. You do you.
Down here in south Florida it is almost impossible to find a restaurant that doesn't cater to people who suddenly have acquired a deep seated need to always have their service dog no more distant from them than three feet.
posted by notreally at 4:33 PM on June 3, 2016
Down here in south Florida it is almost impossible to find a restaurant that doesn't cater to people who suddenly have acquired a deep seated need to always have their service dog no more distant from them than three feet.
posted by notreally at 4:33 PM on June 3, 2016
Jet packs will just allow people to be dangerous jerks in three dimensions.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:54 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:54 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Incidentally, "The Three Dimensional Jerks" is the name of my new trio.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:55 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:55 PM on June 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Literally the only reason summer was given to DC was so that we could drink outside. There is no other valid way to explain DC summer. The patio area of a restaurant counts as 'outside'. Therefore, without sidewalk seating, summer loses some of its meaning and the world unravels into chaos. QED
posted by capricorn at 6:10 PM on June 3, 2016
posted by capricorn at 6:10 PM on June 3, 2016
There is no other valid way to explain DC summer
your city was built on a reclaimed swampland though, what further explanation is needed
really what dc needs are those airboats, you can do swamp tours on the mall
posted by poffin boffin at 6:22 PM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
your city was built on a reclaimed swampland though, what further explanation is needed
really what dc needs are those airboats, you can do swamp tours on the mall
posted by poffin boffin at 6:22 PM on June 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Ha. Ha. This is about 10 blocks away from my house. There are people crammed from the restaurant to the street where there's the permanently parked pickup truck with the table in the back. Then one skinny lane of traffic going each way (and on weekend nights there are always people wandering around in the street with drinks) and then they sometimes set up a tent with a BBQ pit or something in the parking spot across the street and then there are more people milling about behind the tent on that sidewalk. I've never eaten there because I just know the only table available would be the one in the truck and I am not nearly fun enough to sit in a truck on a semi-busy street in the New Orleans heat and humidity and mosquitoes.
posted by artychoke at 9:14 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by artychoke at 9:14 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
naked contractor money grab
That...sounds like it would be, um, fun to watch
posted by The Toad at 9:22 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
That...sounds like it would be, um, fun to watch
posted by The Toad at 9:22 PM on June 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
This was taken from my apartment window just now. The best sidewalk seating is convenience store sidewalk seating. It is a great way to drink outside.
posted by Literaryhero at 1:01 AM on June 4, 2016
posted by Literaryhero at 1:01 AM on June 4, 2016
The best sidewalk seating is convenience store sidewalk seating. It is a great way to drink outside.
After "I live in Korea", this is probably the next easiest way to communicate that you live in Korea.
posted by Panthalassa at 1:41 AM on June 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
After "I live in Korea", this is probably the next easiest way to communicate that you live in Korea.
posted by Panthalassa at 1:41 AM on June 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm OK with sidewalk seating as long as it comes with 30 foot sidewalks like those.
posted by idiopath at 6:21 AM on June 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by idiopath at 6:21 AM on June 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sidewalk seating is probably great in any other city besides New York. Not to discount the noise, dirt, exhaust fumes, honking, pigeons, rats, dogs doing their business and panhandlers. My one lesson in never eating on the sidewalk comes from working a job across the street from Florent when the Meat Packing District was still what it used to be. In one day, in broad daylight, i witnessed one of the girls working the corner pull her dick out from under her skirt and pee on the sidewalk, and later another squat down and make a solid between two parked cars, she at least laughed when she saw me. The icing on this scatological cake was when late in the afternoon a big dump truck backed up to the meat packing plant on the corner next to Florent's bustling outdoor seating and proceeded to empty a dumpster piled high with cow bones into the back. The bones came loudly pounding out of the dumpster lit with the beautiful Manhattan summer sunset followed by a pink clear liquid that i can only imagine was blood and bits mixed with water that splashed all over the sidewalk. While i didn't necessarily see any of the liquid get on anyone's plate, it smelled fucking awful. And you know what, New York can smell fucking awful most of the time and worse when the weather is nice.
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
Complaints about the appalling horror of tables and chairs on sidewalks in a city that simultaneously is totally acclimated to LITERAL GARBAGE MOUNTAINS on those very same sidewalks are my new favorite thing.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:38 AM on June 4, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:38 AM on June 4, 2016 [5 favorites]
But in the USA seasonal sidewalk seating is an affront to pedestrians and the disabled? Should be illegal?
Try navigating those areas in a wheelchair. I have, a lot, in the closest city to me. It's a pain in the ass and often times I cannot get through those areas.
Yet another reason I live in a small town.
posted by SuzySmith at 12:22 PM on June 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Try navigating those areas in a wheelchair. I have, a lot, in the closest city to me. It's a pain in the ass and often times I cannot get through those areas.
Yet another reason I live in a small town.
posted by SuzySmith at 12:22 PM on June 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Jesus christ on life support... the USA has better ADA accessibility than any other country."
People with this attitude need to be in a wheelchair for a few months. Then come tell me how accessible things are.
posted by SuzySmith at 12:32 PM on June 4, 2016 [15 favorites]
People with this attitude need to be in a wheelchair for a few months. Then come tell me how accessible things are.
posted by SuzySmith at 12:32 PM on June 4, 2016 [15 favorites]
We should have picnic blankets in the streets- keep the sidewalks clear!
posted by oceanjesse at 3:55 PM on June 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by oceanjesse at 3:55 PM on June 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love sidewalk seating! If we're going to talk about inconveniences to pedestrians, I mean, my neighborhood is constantly choked by construction projects, rubble and shitty sidewalks that make it hard to navigate even as an able-bodied pedestrian. Sidewalk seating can get in the way, but it's, uh, also fun? Idk.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:13 PM on June 4, 2016
posted by stoneandstar at 9:13 PM on June 4, 2016
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posted by belarius at 10:27 AM on June 3, 2016 [7 favorites]