“Have you noticed,” she asked, “the clothes thing?”
August 16, 2016 10:55 AM Subscribe
I really want to read more of what this writer has to say about clothes. I have no idea what she's talking about, but it's fascinating.
posted by kitcat at 11:07 AM on August 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 11:07 AM on August 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is very timely for me. I just finished writing a short romance novel, and one of the characters is very fashion-conscious. He dresses both for its effect on other people, and for his own pleasure. Because this is a major aspect of his character I describe his clothes a lot, and, to a lesser extent, those of his love interest.
Several friends read an earlier draft, and I was really delighted when they got into a conversation on Facebook about whether this character would wear a certain thing or not. It made me feel like I'd created a character who was real enough that they felt like they knew him.
I was worried about getting things right, so I did a lot of googling to see what hip young things are wearing these days. If I couldn't find an outfit on the internet, I didn't put him in it. I'm not into fashion much myself, so I had to study in order to make his relationship to fashion more-or-less believable.
I hired a copy editor a few weeks ago to check over the manuscript for me. I was amused that he marked most of the clothing descriptions for deletion because he thought they were unnecessary. I think from the up-close view of a copy editor, they might seem to be. Why is the narrative in this scene slowing down to describe this guy's shirt and tie? But from a broader perspective, they're necessary.
I think that detailed physical descriptions are not usually necessary in fiction, but then I've recently figured out that I don't have much of a visual imagination. A writer can tell me what a character looks like, but I'm not going to retain a mental image during my reading. I suspect this is different for other people.
posted by not that girl at 11:11 AM on August 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
Several friends read an earlier draft, and I was really delighted when they got into a conversation on Facebook about whether this character would wear a certain thing or not. It made me feel like I'd created a character who was real enough that they felt like they knew him.
I was worried about getting things right, so I did a lot of googling to see what hip young things are wearing these days. If I couldn't find an outfit on the internet, I didn't put him in it. I'm not into fashion much myself, so I had to study in order to make his relationship to fashion more-or-less believable.
I hired a copy editor a few weeks ago to check over the manuscript for me. I was amused that he marked most of the clothing descriptions for deletion because he thought they were unnecessary. I think from the up-close view of a copy editor, they might seem to be. Why is the narrative in this scene slowing down to describe this guy's shirt and tie? But from a broader perspective, they're necessary.
I think that detailed physical descriptions are not usually necessary in fiction, but then I've recently figured out that I don't have much of a visual imagination. A writer can tell me what a character looks like, but I'm not going to retain a mental image during my reading. I suspect this is different for other people.
posted by not that girl at 11:11 AM on August 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm surprised she didn't mention Tom Wolfe. I remember A Man in Full as about 50% descriptions of menswear.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:16 AM on August 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:16 AM on August 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, it really helps my mental image of a character to know something about what they're wearing.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:17 AM on August 16, 2016
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:17 AM on August 16, 2016
William. Gibson. Dude.
So much clothes! All the time clothes. Sometimes not even clothes anyone is wearing, just talking about clothes to set the scene or whatever.
posted by 3urypteris at 11:21 AM on August 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
So much clothes! All the time clothes. Sometimes not even clothes anyone is wearing, just talking about clothes to set the scene or whatever.
posted by 3urypteris at 11:21 AM on August 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
I was expecting to hear a bit about the look/brand obsession in American Psycho, but it has been so long since I thought about The Mysteries of Pittsburg and what an odd character Phlox was (among many, many other disconcerting things*) that this was an unexpected headtrip.
*I really, really want to believe Michael Chabon likes gay people, but they always seem to have such shitty things happen to them in his novels.
posted by psoas at 11:28 AM on August 16, 2016
*I really, really want to believe Michael Chabon likes gay people, but they always seem to have such shitty things happen to them in his novels.
posted by psoas at 11:28 AM on August 16, 2016
[checks what I'm wearing]
[removes hair clips from collar of shirt]
[thinks about replacing ugliest, pinkest shoes I've ever owned which are now also dirtiest and most worn shoes I own]
[navigates back to tab with instructions about how to attach wire to alligator clip heads]
[turned out to be easy; thinking about shoes again.]
posted by amtho at 11:33 AM on August 16, 2016
[removes hair clips from collar of shirt]
[thinks about replacing ugliest, pinkest shoes I've ever owned which are now also dirtiest and most worn shoes I own]
[navigates back to tab with instructions about how to attach wire to alligator clip heads]
[turned out to be easy; thinking about shoes again.]
posted by amtho at 11:33 AM on August 16, 2016
William. Gibson. Dude.
So much clothes! All the time clothes. Sometimes not even clothes anyone is wearing, just talking about clothes to set the scene or whatever.
This is one of the reasons I love him so much. The gray men's flannel shirt Marly Krushkova buys as a thank-you gift in Count Zero! The leather coat Porphyre wears in Mona Lisa Overdrive, "thin as tissue," or the description of the high-heeled boots Kumiko is wearing at the climax of that novel. The unemployed salaryman who's blacked his ankles once he no longer has socks in All Tomorrow's Parties! Damn near everything in Pattern Recognition, including: skirt thing, the Levi's jeans with all branding filed off the buttons, the Buzz Rickson MA-1 bomber jacket. And then the rapturous description of the Gabriel Hounds clothing in Zero History. I deeply love how his later fiction looks at branding and clothing as the early signals of massive cultural shifts.
It is no surprise Gibson's a major clothing guy. I love this interview with him. And through his books, I've basically internalized the idea that an item of clothing is basically an essay unto itself on history, culture and economic forces. It's a fun lens to look at the world through.
posted by sobell at 11:38 AM on August 16, 2016 [17 favorites]
So much clothes! All the time clothes. Sometimes not even clothes anyone is wearing, just talking about clothes to set the scene or whatever.
This is one of the reasons I love him so much. The gray men's flannel shirt Marly Krushkova buys as a thank-you gift in Count Zero! The leather coat Porphyre wears in Mona Lisa Overdrive, "thin as tissue," or the description of the high-heeled boots Kumiko is wearing at the climax of that novel. The unemployed salaryman who's blacked his ankles once he no longer has socks in All Tomorrow's Parties! Damn near everything in Pattern Recognition, including: skirt thing, the Levi's jeans with all branding filed off the buttons, the Buzz Rickson MA-1 bomber jacket. And then the rapturous description of the Gabriel Hounds clothing in Zero History. I deeply love how his later fiction looks at branding and clothing as the early signals of massive cultural shifts.
It is no surprise Gibson's a major clothing guy. I love this interview with him. And through his books, I've basically internalized the idea that an item of clothing is basically an essay unto itself on history, culture and economic forces. It's a fun lens to look at the world through.
posted by sobell at 11:38 AM on August 16, 2016 [17 favorites]
The author of the piece one the one hand seems to acknowledge that she and her friend are somewhat idiosyncratic about the way they think about clothes in literature, but on the other hand seems to think that everyone loves clothes as clothes.
Madeline, in other words, doesn’t wear clothes because she likes them, but because she likes what they do. I find this line of thinking very depressing.
I am Madeline. I wear clothes because they cover my body, and because when I choose to wear the "right" ones, they express that I am socially aware enough to wear the "right" clothes for certain situations.
There's nothing wrong with writing women characters for whom clothes are tools, because women exist for whom clothes are tools. It's just not considered socially acceptable for women to admit that.
I read a lot of Gibson through the early aughts, and the only time I noticed the clothes as a thing were in the description of Cayce Pollard and her means of coping with what is basically a mental illness. And that clicked to me because in my mind normal people don't care that much about a particular vintage jacket.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:42 AM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Madeline, in other words, doesn’t wear clothes because she likes them, but because she likes what they do. I find this line of thinking very depressing.
I am Madeline. I wear clothes because they cover my body, and because when I choose to wear the "right" ones, they express that I am socially aware enough to wear the "right" clothes for certain situations.
There's nothing wrong with writing women characters for whom clothes are tools, because women exist for whom clothes are tools. It's just not considered socially acceptable for women to admit that.
I read a lot of Gibson through the early aughts, and the only time I noticed the clothes as a thing were in the description of Cayce Pollard and her means of coping with what is basically a mental illness. And that clicked to me because in my mind normal people don't care that much about a particular vintage jacket.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:42 AM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I still want a Buzz Rickson bomber jacket. Damn you Gibson!
posted by Ber at 11:45 AM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Ber at 11:45 AM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I never thought about it before, but my identification with Cayce Pollard's brand allergy and my affinity for military surplus are definitely related.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:02 PM on August 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 12:02 PM on August 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wish she'd told us more about "the clothes thing" in Purity - Purity sounds like such a godawful novel and I'd certainly enjoy more detailed negativity about it.
Funnily enough, given that I'm an utter clothes horse and can talk about clothes til the cows come home, I wouldn't say that clothing descriptions in books stay with me very much. I've read a number of the books she talks about and can't really remember any of the outfits.
The ones in Gibson stay with me a bit more, partially because Gibson provides so much social setting for his clothes. But even there, I only remember generalities and those only where they're linked to an observation. I often think about how Gentry, in Mona Lisa Overdrive, is described as still wearing the clothes that were in fashion when he went into exile in Dog Solitude, and that's how you can date how long he's been out there.
There's a lot of very good clothes description in Edith Wharton's should-be-better-known The Custom of the Country, but it's mostly in service of showing what a lively but philistine character Undine Spragg is. (I like Undine Spragg and often reflect that if she'd been able to get her own living in some way other than marriage or mistresshood, she'd have been a power of some kind.)
posted by Frowner at 12:04 PM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Funnily enough, given that I'm an utter clothes horse and can talk about clothes til the cows come home, I wouldn't say that clothing descriptions in books stay with me very much. I've read a number of the books she talks about and can't really remember any of the outfits.
The ones in Gibson stay with me a bit more, partially because Gibson provides so much social setting for his clothes. But even there, I only remember generalities and those only where they're linked to an observation. I often think about how Gentry, in Mona Lisa Overdrive, is described as still wearing the clothes that were in fashion when he went into exile in Dog Solitude, and that's how you can date how long he's been out there.
There's a lot of very good clothes description in Edith Wharton's should-be-better-known The Custom of the Country, but it's mostly in service of showing what a lively but philistine character Undine Spragg is. (I like Undine Spragg and often reflect that if she'd been able to get her own living in some way other than marriage or mistresshood, she'd have been a power of some kind.)
posted by Frowner at 12:04 PM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I remember reading something similar on tumblr recently -- female characters on tv/movies don't show personality via clothing because the only choices are stilettos, expensive purse, currently trendy hair (now long waves), no clothing repeats, even on shows where men are carefully distinguished by clothing choices. So we're told that this female character is poor and in a rush, but she still has perfect hair and glorious makeup and a purse that costs more than her rent.
posted by jeather at 12:06 PM on August 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by jeather at 12:06 PM on August 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
"She whispered into the seersucker of his shirt..... she said, nuzzling the seersucker."
Oh no, Jon-Jon. Don't you know the Bulwer-Lytton thread was so yesterday.
posted by rokusan at 12:12 PM on August 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh no, Jon-Jon. Don't you know the Bulwer-Lytton thread was so yesterday.
posted by rokusan at 12:12 PM on August 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't believe she didn't discuss The Secret History. I loved that book when I was in high school, but lord, it was literally 80% clothes. Like a J. Peterman catalog gone homicidal in Vermont.
posted by thivaia at 12:46 PM on August 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 12:46 PM on August 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
I remember reading something similar on tumblr recently -- female characters on tv/movies don't show personality via clothing because the only choices are stilettos, expensive purse, currently trendy hair (now long waves), no clothing repeats, even on shows where men are carefully distinguished by clothing choices.
This was one of the reasons I loved Jessica Jones so much -- she wore the same leather jacket and jeans and boots. It was meant as an indication of PTSD and not, say, an indication that Jessica really does not give a shit about clothing, so I'm really curious to see what Stephanie Maslansky does for season two. I also liked how, on Sons of Anarchy, the costume designer deliberately repeated clothing for everyone, men and women. Kelli Jones is very, very good at her job.
posted by sobell at 12:53 PM on August 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Like a J. Peterman catalog gone homicidal in Vermont. -- thivaia
Wait, so Patrick Bateman becomes a lumberjack too?
posted by rokusan at 1:38 PM on August 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wait, so Patrick Bateman becomes a lumberjack too?
posted by rokusan at 1:38 PM on August 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
One of the many small things the movie 'Creed' really nails is the clothing.
From the muted, low-key clothes that Adonis chooses to wear to the tough Philly boxing gyms, it's clear that he wants to fit in and not be obvious about his wealth, status and privilege - but his version of 'dressed down' is hopelessly imbued with the class he spent his adolescence in. Sleek, well-fitted athletic clothes made of modern, breathable fabrics. Stylish all-weather Hoodies. Flecked Henley T-shirts. Next to the little-too-big cotton, flannel and demin around him.
Seeing Adonis and Stallone next to each other tells nearly the whole story of their contrasting backgrounds without any dialogue. Clothes are everything.
posted by AAALASTAIR at 1:42 PM on August 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
From the muted, low-key clothes that Adonis chooses to wear to the tough Philly boxing gyms, it's clear that he wants to fit in and not be obvious about his wealth, status and privilege - but his version of 'dressed down' is hopelessly imbued with the class he spent his adolescence in. Sleek, well-fitted athletic clothes made of modern, breathable fabrics. Stylish all-weather Hoodies. Flecked Henley T-shirts. Next to the little-too-big cotton, flannel and demin around him.
Seeing Adonis and Stallone next to each other tells nearly the whole story of their contrasting backgrounds without any dialogue. Clothes are everything.
posted by AAALASTAIR at 1:42 PM on August 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
This was one of the reasons I loved Jessica Jones so much -- she wore the same leather jacket and jeans and boots. It was meant as an indication of PTSD and not, say, an indication that Jessica really does not give a shit about clothing,
I'd be disappointed if Jessica changes her look much in Season 2. I mean, I don't know where you get the idea that Jessica gives a shit about clothing from this quote (emphasis added):
posted by sparklemotion at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd be disappointed if Jessica changes her look much in Season 2. I mean, I don't know where you get the idea that Jessica gives a shit about clothing from this quote (emphasis added):
She has so much to struggle with on a day-to-day basis that for her, it’s just a matter of survival. She struggles with PTSD and her memories, she closes herself off from relationships with most people, she really has this attitude of ‘Leave me alone, let me get my work done, don’t cross me,’ and the last thing that she really cares about is how she looks. That’s something she doesn’t ever want to have to think about.If "the last thing that she really cares about is how she looks", I don't see why coming to terms with her PTSD would necessarily change that. It reads to me more that Jessica pre and post trauma isn't someone who cared about looks, and post trauma she couldn't be bothered to pretend that she did in the way that society might expect her to. I think her character would be a lot less interesting if all of a sudden she was going for manicures and shopping clearance sales with Trish.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know where you get the idea that Jessica gives a shit about clothing from this quote
I phrased that wrong if this is the takeaway you get. My understanding of the quote was that Jessica's pragmatic approach to her wardrobe was a coping technique due to her PTSD. And I am leaving open the possibility that her character development in season two will be reflected in a more varied wardrobe, which will be explained as reflecting Jessica's increased engagement in the world or some such. And the end result will be another female character on TV gets the infinite wardrobe treatment.
posted by sobell at 2:22 PM on August 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I phrased that wrong if this is the takeaway you get. My understanding of the quote was that Jessica's pragmatic approach to her wardrobe was a coping technique due to her PTSD. And I am leaving open the possibility that her character development in season two will be reflected in a more varied wardrobe, which will be explained as reflecting Jessica's increased engagement in the world or some such. And the end result will be another female character on TV gets the infinite wardrobe treatment.
posted by sobell at 2:22 PM on August 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait, so Patrick Bateman becomes a lumberjack too?
Given that Donna Tartt and Brett Easton Ellis went to the same college in real life . Then each wrote a college novel about what kind of seemed like the same college, I've always kind of assumed that they were writing in the same universe. Patrick Batemen makes a cameo in "Rules of Attraction," after all.
posted by thivaia at 2:28 PM on August 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Clothing in novels is so interesting. It's been a part of novels since before there were novels. Clothing's a major thing both in the Icelandic sagas and The Tale of Genji. I often think about it when reading books.
Because of that personal interest, most chapters in my first novel started with descriptions of what the characters were wearing. It was the only thing that was brought up more than once as a criticism (usually along the lines of "I got tired of thinking about how the characters were dressed"). I thought it was interesting, and then a friend of mine who's a computer scientist was talking with me about the novel. He also mentioned the description of clothing and said that it had been interesting, but after a while it got too much. The analogy he used was of software user interface that slowed down its users. That it required mental effort where usually little was required, i.e. picturing what characters were wearing. I thought that was quite interesting and since then when I write I think about what will require mental effort and what won't. It's important to manage the difficulty of text, where to increase it and where to dial it down.
The other thing I learned is that for a lot of people, clothing descriptions in novels might as well be invisible. Talking with people about it, both those who do and don't write, I've found that at least half of them never give any thought to clothing. Even in books that to me seem to define their characters partly through clothing, e.g. Anna Karenina. We're all interested in different things, and it follows us into our reading.
posted by Kattullus at 3:11 PM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Because of that personal interest, most chapters in my first novel started with descriptions of what the characters were wearing. It was the only thing that was brought up more than once as a criticism (usually along the lines of "I got tired of thinking about how the characters were dressed"). I thought it was interesting, and then a friend of mine who's a computer scientist was talking with me about the novel. He also mentioned the description of clothing and said that it had been interesting, but after a while it got too much. The analogy he used was of software user interface that slowed down its users. That it required mental effort where usually little was required, i.e. picturing what characters were wearing. I thought that was quite interesting and since then when I write I think about what will require mental effort and what won't. It's important to manage the difficulty of text, where to increase it and where to dial it down.
The other thing I learned is that for a lot of people, clothing descriptions in novels might as well be invisible. Talking with people about it, both those who do and don't write, I've found that at least half of them never give any thought to clothing. Even in books that to me seem to define their characters partly through clothing, e.g. Anna Karenina. We're all interested in different things, and it follows us into our reading.
posted by Kattullus at 3:11 PM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I skim over passages like this. I don't have the fluency to build a picture from a description of clothing. It's like describing an engine- that doesn't mean anything to me, either.
Andreas’s “good narrow jeans and a close-fitting polo shirt.” This is wrong. Andreas is a charismatic weirdo, a maniac, and I struggle to believe that he would be slinking around in such tight, nerdy clothes.
This is an outfit I can visualize. I don't see it as nerdy. That's would describe the better dressed people at my work. So descriptions of outfit doesn't do anything for me.
posted by Monday at 4:46 PM on August 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Andreas’s “good narrow jeans and a close-fitting polo shirt.” This is wrong. Andreas is a charismatic weirdo, a maniac, and I struggle to believe that he would be slinking around in such tight, nerdy clothes.
This is an outfit I can visualize. I don't see it as nerdy. That's would describe the better dressed people at my work. So descriptions of outfit doesn't do anything for me.
posted by Monday at 4:46 PM on August 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't have the fluency to build a picture from a description of clothing.
This. I have no idea, for instance, what the hell a "blue tulle dress" looks like, much less implies. There's a couple of problems here for me: one, a vocabulary issue, and two, a set of fashion mappings that change every few years. What do denim overalls imply about a character? Depends when. At some points in time, simplicity and labor; at others, a hippie or a hipster. Every author is going to use contextual shortcuts, but fashion cues drive me nuts because I just don't have the huge historical knowledge necessary to figure out what a novel written even ten years ago is trying to say based on the cut of someone's blouse.
posted by phooky at 5:41 PM on August 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
This. I have no idea, for instance, what the hell a "blue tulle dress" looks like, much less implies. There's a couple of problems here for me: one, a vocabulary issue, and two, a set of fashion mappings that change every few years. What do denim overalls imply about a character? Depends when. At some points in time, simplicity and labor; at others, a hippie or a hipster. Every author is going to use contextual shortcuts, but fashion cues drive me nuts because I just don't have the huge historical knowledge necessary to figure out what a novel written even ten years ago is trying to say based on the cut of someone's blouse.
posted by phooky at 5:41 PM on August 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
But phooky, the same issue arises with any piece of culture that happens in a book. What does driving a wood-panelled station wagon mean? Or having an orginial ipod? Different things depending on when, where, and who the character is. Clothes are just defined as 'female' and therefore are often ignored or the vocabulary isn't taken seriously/learned in the first place.
Tulle is basically what ballerinas wear and reads as very feminine and girly/precious, especially on a grown woman. For instance, I just googled 'Grace Kelly tulle dress' because she's the sort that I imagined would wear one (and she did). Also notice that the bodice of Kelly's dress is not tulle, but (probably) velvet. That passage would be jarring to me too. It'd be like a story with a high school teacher driving a brand new Audi - possible, but odd enough that it would pull me out of the story to consider what message the author is trying to send or whether he's mistaken something - Did the author mean a Volvo? Has the character come down in the world? Is there a rich partner? Is the teacher stealing money from the school? Unfortunately with clothes, it's often just sloppiness.
posted by hydrobatidae at 6:32 PM on August 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
Tulle is basically what ballerinas wear and reads as very feminine and girly/precious, especially on a grown woman. For instance, I just googled 'Grace Kelly tulle dress' because she's the sort that I imagined would wear one (and she did). Also notice that the bodice of Kelly's dress is not tulle, but (probably) velvet. That passage would be jarring to me too. It'd be like a story with a high school teacher driving a brand new Audi - possible, but odd enough that it would pull me out of the story to consider what message the author is trying to send or whether he's mistaken something - Did the author mean a Volvo? Has the character come down in the world? Is there a rich partner? Is the teacher stealing money from the school? Unfortunately with clothes, it's often just sloppiness.
posted by hydrobatidae at 6:32 PM on August 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
The one time Jessica Jones is dressed up, well..... not a good day for her.
Anyway, just posting a related link: Character and Clothing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:02 PM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Anyway, just posting a related link: Character and Clothing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:02 PM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't know about cars, either, so that would also be lost on me.
American Pysco handled this well. There was plenty of discription that was way over my head but the main character's jealousy over a friend's crazy expensive business card was very apparent. I didn't have to know the culture relevancy to understand the impact.
posted by Monday at 10:16 PM on August 16, 2016
American Pysco handled this well. There was plenty of discription that was way over my head but the main character's jealousy over a friend's crazy expensive business card was very apparent. I didn't have to know the culture relevancy to understand the impact.
posted by Monday at 10:16 PM on August 16, 2016
The only clothes I remember from a book were the clothes from Philip K. Dick's "Ubik", which are all portrayed as being just flat out fucking ridiculous. "Square and puffy, like an overweight brick, wearing his usual mohair poncho, apricot-colored felt hat, argyle ski socks and carpet slippers" "A husband home from his job at the end of the day; he still has on his electric-yellow cummerbund, petal skirt, knee-hugging hose and military-style visored cap.", etc.
This worked perfectly for me, because every time I have tried to visualize clothes described in a book, I end out visualizing something fucking ridiculous. Since I don't have the vocabulary, most clothing descriptions read to me like "Judy pulled her agronk tightly over her ears, zipped up the fapules on her dafron-colored Pelzheimer coat, and adjusted the hem of her protlows as she looked at her jerpson shoes, surprisingly free of blood spatter". So usually I just let the words wash over me, but every once in a while I think "Okay, let me try to visualize this" and I Google images of "Pelzheimer coats", and am confronted with pages of coats which vary from ankle length to midriff length, with lapels and without lapels, scrappy and fancy. So I try to combine the platonic ideal I've developed of an average Pelzheimer coat with the platonic idea of an average agronk, and jerpson, and protlow. And, inevitably, I end up mentally picturing something that looks like an explosion in a clown factory. So I think "fuck it," and I go back to ignoring all clothing descriptions. Ubik was nice because I would visualize it and end up with something that looked completely ridiculous and yet that was okay. Very refreshing.
posted by Bugbread at 10:23 PM on August 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
This worked perfectly for me, because every time I have tried to visualize clothes described in a book, I end out visualizing something fucking ridiculous. Since I don't have the vocabulary, most clothing descriptions read to me like "Judy pulled her agronk tightly over her ears, zipped up the fapules on her dafron-colored Pelzheimer coat, and adjusted the hem of her protlows as she looked at her jerpson shoes, surprisingly free of blood spatter". So usually I just let the words wash over me, but every once in a while I think "Okay, let me try to visualize this" and I Google images of "Pelzheimer coats", and am confronted with pages of coats which vary from ankle length to midriff length, with lapels and without lapels, scrappy and fancy. So I try to combine the platonic ideal I've developed of an average Pelzheimer coat with the platonic idea of an average agronk, and jerpson, and protlow. And, inevitably, I end up mentally picturing something that looks like an explosion in a clown factory. So I think "fuck it," and I go back to ignoring all clothing descriptions. Ubik was nice because I would visualize it and end up with something that looked completely ridiculous and yet that was okay. Very refreshing.
posted by Bugbread at 10:23 PM on August 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Raymond Chandler has wonderful descriptions of clothes.
posted by Violet Hour at 11:48 PM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Violet Hour at 11:48 PM on August 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
The author seems to just buy into (uncritically) the whole idea that your clothing must be an "expression" of your "true identity".
Another costume, for a girl who doesn’t know who she really is. The problem with these clothes is not that they don’t sound real, or that they are badly described. It’s that Madeline only ever wears clothes to make a point, to manipulate or to persuade her audience that she is someone other than she really is. Worse, there is the implication that she has no real identity outside from what she projects.
But this just seems so tied up with an essentialist view of identity / character that is dissolving today in the era of facebook / Judith Butler etc. I think that Madeline is actually more enlightened about clothes in the Marriage Plot. That the most "honest" and "truthful" relation to clothing is to see it as a tool. To recognise it as a means of influencing ones relations with others. The Author of this post seems caught up in a typical fetishistic reification of clothing as identity.
Worse, there is the implication that she has no real identity outside from what she projects.
...but this isn't "worse" this is the post-structuralist theory of identity revealed in the Critical Theory that Madeline is studying.
posted by mary8nne at 2:38 AM on August 17, 2016
Another costume, for a girl who doesn’t know who she really is. The problem with these clothes is not that they don’t sound real, or that they are badly described. It’s that Madeline only ever wears clothes to make a point, to manipulate or to persuade her audience that she is someone other than she really is. Worse, there is the implication that she has no real identity outside from what she projects.
But this just seems so tied up with an essentialist view of identity / character that is dissolving today in the era of facebook / Judith Butler etc. I think that Madeline is actually more enlightened about clothes in the Marriage Plot. That the most "honest" and "truthful" relation to clothing is to see it as a tool. To recognise it as a means of influencing ones relations with others. The Author of this post seems caught up in a typical fetishistic reification of clothing as identity.
Worse, there is the implication that she has no real identity outside from what she projects.
...but this isn't "worse" this is the post-structuralist theory of identity revealed in the Critical Theory that Madeline is studying.
posted by mary8nne at 2:38 AM on August 17, 2016
This is one of the reasons I love him so much.
The whole obsession with clothes, and more generally brands, are something I find tiring about Gibson's last few books. He stopped being a cyberpunk writer, or even a science fiction writer, and started fixating on products. (Almost like the way James Bond movies stopped being about cool futuristic gadgets and more about product placement for the latest cellphone.) His characters can, and do, look at a light fixture and tell you what country manufactured it, who designed it, what inspired the design, etc. His novels are like an Ikea catalog.
posted by Foosnark at 5:47 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
The whole obsession with clothes, and more generally brands, are something I find tiring about Gibson's last few books. He stopped being a cyberpunk writer, or even a science fiction writer, and started fixating on products. (Almost like the way James Bond movies stopped being about cool futuristic gadgets and more about product placement for the latest cellphone.) His characters can, and do, look at a light fixture and tell you what country manufactured it, who designed it, what inspired the design, etc. His novels are like an Ikea catalog.
posted by Foosnark at 5:47 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I appreciate this article. It's not 'helpful', exactly, but I've been working on a YA book recently--which is to say, it stars teenagers--so I have been doing my best to describe the character's outfits. Unfortunately, I'm an adult American man, I'm not very fashionable in my actual life, and my own experience with reading is not dissimilar to Bugbread's, so I appreciate this article in that it tells me I'm not entirely wasting my time and energy worrying about outfit descriptions. I also don't have a very visual imagination, and while I don't completely gloss over outfit descriptions in books, I also haven't taken the time, in my life, to actually find out what a lot of the clothing related words I've read actually mean, because up until recently it just hasn't interested me very much.
As a result I have no idea if some of the outfits I've described are actually something an actual teenager would wear. It's relatively easy with the less well off male characters, but for the girls and the richer male characters, I really don't have the first clue as to what might look good. I'm not even worried about what's currently fashionable, as it's set on an AU Earth and fashions change too fast for novels anyway, but simple putting them in clothing and color combinations that someone would actually wear has been challenging.
My solution, if you could call it that, for my most recent outfits has been to get on Deviant Art and use elements from various outfits people have drawn, though even that is more time consuming and difficult than I'd like, because I only barely have the clothing related vocabulary for some of that stuff.
posted by Caduceus at 6:11 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
As a result I have no idea if some of the outfits I've described are actually something an actual teenager would wear. It's relatively easy with the less well off male characters, but for the girls and the richer male characters, I really don't have the first clue as to what might look good. I'm not even worried about what's currently fashionable, as it's set on an AU Earth and fashions change too fast for novels anyway, but simple putting them in clothing and color combinations that someone would actually wear has been challenging.
My solution, if you could call it that, for my most recent outfits has been to get on Deviant Art and use elements from various outfits people have drawn, though even that is more time consuming and difficult than I'd like, because I only barely have the clothing related vocabulary for some of that stuff.
posted by Caduceus at 6:11 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is why I had to abandon the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. After he introduced the 18247th female character with another ten pages of "she wore a dress of finely woven fabric gilded with silver threads, with a blue ribbon that gathered below a plunging neckline that [male character] struggled to avoid looking at directly...her thick auburn hair was gathered back with a scarf of rich blue that matched her eyes, and jeweled earrings twinkled-" I was ready to throw the book at the wall. It felt weird and made the plot screech to a halt every time so the reader could do some creepy male gazing with the author. I suspected Jordan relied heavily on the different dresses and hairstyles because that was the only way he had to distinguish his female characters (personality-wise, they were interchangeable with their nagging and harping and ability to bewitch the men).
posted by castlebravo at 11:05 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by castlebravo at 11:05 AM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Caduceus: My solution, if you could call it that, for my most recent outfits has been to get on Deviant Art and use elements from various outfits people have drawn, though even that is more time consuming and difficult than I'd like, because I only barely have the clothing related vocabulary for some of that stuff.
When I was writing in cafés I used to make notes about outfits that people were wearing that seemed to me like clothes that my characters would wear.
And if you don't have the vocabulary, go people watching with someone who does. You won't learn all the ins and outs, but you'll have plenty of phrases ready to drop into the book.
posted by Kattullus at 12:54 PM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
When I was writing in cafés I used to make notes about outfits that people were wearing that seemed to me like clothes that my characters would wear.
And if you don't have the vocabulary, go people watching with someone who does. You won't learn all the ins and outs, but you'll have plenty of phrases ready to drop into the book.
posted by Kattullus at 12:54 PM on August 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've been thinking a lot about clothing lately because I'm trying to set up contrasts between fictional cultures with a much lower tech level and very different gender dynamics and environmental pressures, and it's really tough to make it open for individual differences instead of a sea of identical tunics or silver jumpsuits or something. Coming up with a whole new vocabulary for clothing and figuring out how to use it to best effect is both really fun and really a challenge.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:25 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Deoridhe at 1:25 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Raymond Chandler has wonderful descriptions of clothes.
posted by Violet Hour at 2:48 AM on August 17 [5 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
“It was about eleven o’clock in the morning, mid October, with the sun not shining and a look of hard wet rain in the clearness of the foothills. I was wearing my powder-blue suit, with dark blue shirt, tie and display handkerchief, black brogues, black wool socks with dark blue clocks on them. I was neat, clean, shaved and sober, and I didn't care who knew it. I was everything the well-dressed private detective ought to be. I was calling on four million dollars.”
Soooo goooood...
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:56 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Violet Hour at 2:48 AM on August 17 [5 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
“It was about eleven o’clock in the morning, mid October, with the sun not shining and a look of hard wet rain in the clearness of the foothills. I was wearing my powder-blue suit, with dark blue shirt, tie and display handkerchief, black brogues, black wool socks with dark blue clocks on them. I was neat, clean, shaved and sober, and I didn't care who knew it. I was everything the well-dressed private detective ought to be. I was calling on four million dollars.”
Soooo goooood...
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:56 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is an ignorant opinion, as I have read none of his work, but Franzen seems like a writer that people read because they think they are supposed to, not because they want to.
posted by thelonius at 5:22 AM on August 18, 2016
posted by thelonius at 5:22 AM on August 18, 2016
Part of the psychiatric mental status exam includes noting the patient's appearance and dress. When I was first introduced to this notion several years ago, I felt confused: but clothes-- they're so arbitrary. Why mention which way the wind blows in my clinical notes? Except it's entirely not arbitrary. This clicked for me when I started noticing that some days, when I felt more tired/down, I just didn't have it in me to care about nice clothes. I'd like to believe that I could [wear a nice outfit], but I won't because I actually can't.
I believe that clothes are very revealing, despite the fact that I very much fall into the camp of those who are "suspicious of fashion. They do not trust it or like it, and, while they see that it serves a purpose, they wish it was somehow enforceable to make everyone wear a uniform at all times. Deep down, they also believe that anyone who does take pleasure in it is lying to themselves, or doing it for the wrong reasons." ...
Clothes do reflect a lot about a person's sense of self. Are the clothes clean? Dirty? Loud? Disposable? Expensive? Uncomfortable or ill-fitting? Appropriate for the setting? Does the character prioritize money, comfort, status, beauty, and does s/he have the means to achieve that? How difficult was it for this character to get out of bed today? I don't know that readers need elaborate tomes of description. But sometimes those things help set up a baseline.
posted by gemutlichkeit at 7:45 PM on August 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
I believe that clothes are very revealing, despite the fact that I very much fall into the camp of those who are "suspicious of fashion. They do not trust it or like it, and, while they see that it serves a purpose, they wish it was somehow enforceable to make everyone wear a uniform at all times. Deep down, they also believe that anyone who does take pleasure in it is lying to themselves, or doing it for the wrong reasons." ...
Clothes do reflect a lot about a person's sense of self. Are the clothes clean? Dirty? Loud? Disposable? Expensive? Uncomfortable or ill-fitting? Appropriate for the setting? Does the character prioritize money, comfort, status, beauty, and does s/he have the means to achieve that? How difficult was it for this character to get out of bed today? I don't know that readers need elaborate tomes of description. But sometimes those things help set up a baseline.
posted by gemutlichkeit at 7:45 PM on August 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
As an inveterate rereader and someone whose favorite author is William Gibson, it was interesting to reread his work after having gained some degree of fluency in clothing (in “traditional” menswear, at least) and being able to appreciate, for example, his description of the "San Francisco Homicide look" in Virtual Light as
Foosnark says Gibson has stopped being a science fiction author, but isn’t it more that he went from fictional brands like Ono Sendai or generic descriptors like “black SWAT trainers” to referring to existing goods like Adidas GSG9 boots when he set the Bigend trilogy in the present day? Especially with the Peripheral returning to a full-on futuralogical* setting, he, by necessity, backed away from this somewhat.
*As a callow youth, I thought of Pattern Recognition being set in the real world as a betrayal and wasn’t going to read it, but then there was a signing at A Clean Well-Lighted Place for Books and purchasing it in paperback was a prerequisite to having my copy of Neuromancer signed. During the Q&A, I asked Gibson if he would return to future-set works and, IIRC, he used the phrase “full-on futuralogical” in his response.
In addition to the Buzz Rickson black MA-1 jacket making the jump from fiction to reality, it seems that someone at least considered having an equivalent to Bigend’s International Klein Blue suit from Zero History made up.
Having read all of his novels over the past couple years, I’d suggest John le Carré as another writer who uses clothing descriptions well, though actually paging through a couple of them to refresh my memory and write this post, they seem to be fairly few and far between. Something he does that I expect would be more difficult in light of globalization and dress becoming more and more casual is indicating national origin by distinctions within the overall language of clothing (again, I'm only conversant with menswear). Le Carré often describes the CIA cousins wearing “Harvard shoes”, which would be much less common this far removed from the heyday of the Ivy League look.
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 11:23 PM on August 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
“...old tan raincoats over black flak vests over white shirts and ties. The shirts were button-down oxfords and the ties were the stripey kind, like you were supposed to belong to a club or something. Cuffs on their trousers and great, big pebble-grain wingtips with cleated Vibram soles. About the only people who wore shirts and ties and shoes like that were immigrants, people who wanted it as American as it got.”That last sentence in particular, as I generally avoid wearing a necktie with a button-down collar for the very reason of it being too American.
Foosnark says Gibson has stopped being a science fiction author, but isn’t it more that he went from fictional brands like Ono Sendai or generic descriptors like “black SWAT trainers” to referring to existing goods like Adidas GSG9 boots when he set the Bigend trilogy in the present day? Especially with the Peripheral returning to a full-on futuralogical* setting, he, by necessity, backed away from this somewhat.
*As a callow youth, I thought of Pattern Recognition being set in the real world as a betrayal and wasn’t going to read it, but then there was a signing at A Clean Well-Lighted Place for Books and purchasing it in paperback was a prerequisite to having my copy of Neuromancer signed. During the Q&A, I asked Gibson if he would return to future-set works and, IIRC, he used the phrase “full-on futuralogical” in his response.
In addition to the Buzz Rickson black MA-1 jacket making the jump from fiction to reality, it seems that someone at least considered having an equivalent to Bigend’s International Klein Blue suit from Zero History made up.
Having read all of his novels over the past couple years, I’d suggest John le Carré as another writer who uses clothing descriptions well, though actually paging through a couple of them to refresh my memory and write this post, they seem to be fairly few and far between. Something he does that I expect would be more difficult in light of globalization and dress becoming more and more casual is indicating national origin by distinctions within the overall language of clothing (again, I'm only conversant with menswear). Le Carré often describes the CIA cousins wearing “Harvard shoes”, which would be much less common this far removed from the heyday of the Ivy League look.
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 11:23 PM on August 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
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posted by gurple at 11:04 AM on August 16, 2016 [4 favorites]