Cheating at poker James Bond Style
October 22, 2016 11:25 AM Subscribe
A Defcon 2016 talk about a very sophisticated hi-tech gadget designed to cheat at cards.
The device relies on infrared markings on the sides of cards. Not easy to use your own deck at the Casino.
posted by humanfont at 12:11 PM on October 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 12:11 PM on October 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
Extremely neat tech (even though I was a little disappointed by the need for a trick-deck) and for the relatively low cost compared to winning a few decent games. I'll certainly be looking around the table for a car-key or phone sitting on the table next time I play.
There's plenty of non-casino games, though you'd imagine a small casino table with the dealer (or owner) in on the scam would absolutely rack up the winnings for friends coming and going throughout the night with essentially zero risk.
posted by Static Vagabond at 12:33 PM on October 22, 2016
There's plenty of non-casino games, though you'd imagine a small casino table with the dealer (or owner) in on the scam would absolutely rack up the winnings for friends coming and going throughout the night with essentially zero risk.
posted by Static Vagabond at 12:33 PM on October 22, 2016
I guess this is pretty easy to spot if you've got security cameras, which typically will see the infra-red light.
posted by aubilenon at 12:37 PM on October 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 12:37 PM on October 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
they mention this device won't work in a major casino due to security arranges but also because it requires that the dealer is on it
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:54 PM on October 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:54 PM on October 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
The device relies on infrared markings on the sides of cards. Not easy to use your own deck at the Casino.
First off, I wouldn't cheat at cards. My preferred game is bridge, for no money, and I enjoy the game for the challenge and I'm atrocious enough that I'm sure no one would think I do or ever would cheat. But people do cheat at it as well as poker.
That said I've spent time considering how I would cheat, thanks to a minor interest in magic and mentalism, and because the known bridge cheats use frankly blatant methods.
I think the take away from this, as with much of cheating and magic, isn't that you'd need to use your own cards, but that people will go to superficially absurd lengths to cheat. Lengths you would never consider if they hadn't been shown to you already in a working state.
And given that there are methods you now know you'd never have considered, you should consider there are more methods you'd never considered that don't need you to swap decks.
posted by edd at 1:32 PM on October 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
First off, I wouldn't cheat at cards. My preferred game is bridge, for no money, and I enjoy the game for the challenge and I'm atrocious enough that I'm sure no one would think I do or ever would cheat. But people do cheat at it as well as poker.
That said I've spent time considering how I would cheat, thanks to a minor interest in magic and mentalism, and because the known bridge cheats use frankly blatant methods.
I think the take away from this, as with much of cheating and magic, isn't that you'd need to use your own cards, but that people will go to superficially absurd lengths to cheat. Lengths you would never consider if they hadn't been shown to you already in a working state.
And given that there are methods you now know you'd never have considered, you should consider there are more methods you'd never considered that don't need you to swap decks.
posted by edd at 1:32 PM on October 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
I maintain that this type of technology is how the casino knows what's going on. So its own dealers can't move against the house, and for a co-conspirator.
posted by Oyéah at 1:40 PM on October 22, 2016
posted by Oyéah at 1:40 PM on October 22, 2016
So its own dealers can't move against the house, and for a co-conspirator.
The casino has no incentive to rig a poker game, and the poker dealers have no means by which to scam anything by messing with the cards. Players play against each other, not the house.
Marking cards in other games would be idiotic, as it would remove the house's sole defense against the IR attack.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:25 PM on October 22, 2016
The casino has no incentive to rig a poker game, and the poker dealers have no means by which to scam anything by messing with the cards. Players play against each other, not the house.
Marking cards in other games would be idiotic, as it would remove the house's sole defense against the IR attack.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:25 PM on October 22, 2016
I'm kinda disappointed. When I saw the start I thought the camera was going to recognise cards from small glimpses during shuffling, and derive the final sequence by tracking known cards and guessing probable arrangements.
This is way easier, and remarkably cheap considering the work that must have gone into it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:21 PM on October 22, 2016
This is way easier, and remarkably cheap considering the work that must have gone into it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:21 PM on October 22, 2016
Edd: and because the known bridge cheats use frankly blatant methods.
Gladys and Ethel down at the senior center are cruising for a bruising if they think they can scam their way though the Thursday night bingo game too.
posted by dr_dank at 3:50 PM on October 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Gladys and Ethel down at the senior center are cruising for a bruising if they think they can scam their way though the Thursday night bingo game too.
posted by dr_dank at 3:50 PM on October 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's quite fascinating. There's a bit more write-up at Elie's blog.
I assume the likely target is a relatively high stakes home poker game. Casinos are pretty uptight about chain of custody of their decks, so you'd be hard-pressed to insert one of these decks into play without floor staff changing it up for you. But if you're at the local fraternal organization hall or someone's upscale dining room with a poker table in it, then a nice fresh deck of $NameBrand cards with the seal still on it might be just the thing.
I'm going to send the links to a bunch of folks I know who are gamblers and card players and many of whom are associated with the casino industry. I'll share anything interesting that comes up from their discussion of it.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:39 PM on October 22, 2016
I assume the likely target is a relatively high stakes home poker game. Casinos are pretty uptight about chain of custody of their decks, so you'd be hard-pressed to insert one of these decks into play without floor staff changing it up for you. But if you're at the local fraternal organization hall or someone's upscale dining room with a poker table in it, then a nice fresh deck of $NameBrand cards with the seal still on it might be just the thing.
I'm going to send the links to a bunch of folks I know who are gamblers and card players and many of whom are associated with the casino industry. I'll share anything interesting that comes up from their discussion of it.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:39 PM on October 22, 2016
I assume the likely target is a relatively high stakes home poker game.
It's not a 1st-gen device. Its sophistication and the wide range of accessories makes me think that it's been developed over a long time - I'm guessing five years, at least. And you know the first users would have paid tens of thousands for it; for the price to have fallen so low implies that it either escaped its developers, or they've exhausted their pool of wealthy purchasers.
You could probably make its price back over the course of one evening at a moderate game; I bet that basically everybody playing in Asia and many regular players in the USA have been ripped off by this more than once.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:44 PM on October 22, 2016
It's not a 1st-gen device. Its sophistication and the wide range of accessories makes me think that it's been developed over a long time - I'm guessing five years, at least. And you know the first users would have paid tens of thousands for it; for the price to have fallen so low implies that it either escaped its developers, or they've exhausted their pool of wealthy purchasers.
You could probably make its price back over the course of one evening at a moderate game; I bet that basically everybody playing in Asia and many regular players in the USA have been ripped off by this more than once.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:44 PM on October 22, 2016
Yeah, it's definitely fairly mature tech. I'm just thinking in terms of situations where you could reasonably get that deck into play.
posted by rmd1023 at 4:55 PM on October 22, 2016
posted by rmd1023 at 4:55 PM on October 22, 2016
In one of the Bond books, he refreshes his memories and skills by rereading the chapter about cheating in John Scarne's Scarne on Cards. I highly recommend the book. His book on gambling is great too. Moral - unless you're really smart and skilled, don't gamble.
posted by njohnson23 at 6:19 PM on October 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 6:19 PM on October 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
Cheaters have actually been caught using a similar method.
posted by bdk3clash at 6:23 PM on October 22, 2016
posted by bdk3clash at 6:23 PM on October 22, 2016
rmd1023: "Casinos are pretty uptight about chain of custody of their decks, so you'd be hard-pressed to insert one of these decks into play without floor staff changing it up for you."
I wonder how good the supply and shipping chain is before the decks get to the casino. I don't think decks are serialized so it might not be too hard to replace at least some casinos shipments.
posted by Mitheral at 9:00 PM on October 22, 2016
I wonder how good the supply and shipping chain is before the decks get to the casino. I don't think decks are serialized so it might not be too hard to replace at least some casinos shipments.
posted by Mitheral at 9:00 PM on October 22, 2016
Well, now I know how Victor won $10 off me that one time at cards. The scoundrel!
posted by vernondalhart at 1:54 AM on October 23, 2016
posted by vernondalhart at 1:54 AM on October 23, 2016
Remember the MIT Poker Team? THAT'S how you cheat at poker.
I remember reading about a device a gentleman used to cheat at roulette by tapping his foot (input) and listening to an earpiece (output) and using some kind of small computer (processing) to predict the winning number before the bet deadline. He got caught.
posted by ostranenie at 6:40 PM on October 23, 2016
I remember reading about a device a gentleman used to cheat at roulette by tapping his foot (input) and listening to an earpiece (output) and using some kind of small computer (processing) to predict the winning number before the bet deadline. He got caught.
posted by ostranenie at 6:40 PM on October 23, 2016
I remember reading about a device a gentleman used to cheat at roulette...
Also- The Eudaemonic Pie is a nice read.
posted by MtDewd at 6:04 AM on October 24, 2016
Also- The Eudaemonic Pie is a nice read.
posted by MtDewd at 6:04 AM on October 24, 2016
oh. MIT played Blackjack, not poker. sod it all
posted by ostranenie at 7:47 AM on October 24, 2016
posted by ostranenie at 7:47 AM on October 24, 2016
Do you mean the MIT Blackjack Team(s)? I wasn't aware of a poker team, although certainly a number of MIT grads have ended up as poker professionals but as far as I can tell they're just playing good poker and not cheating in particular.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:12 AM on October 24, 2016
posted by rmd1023 at 11:12 AM on October 24, 2016
SPOILER (1989 foreign film)
Infrared marked cards (and eyeglasses/contact lenses able to detect the markings) is the final plot twist in the 1989 Hong Kong Comedy/Action/Drama movie God of Gamblers.
posted by porpoise at 3:42 PM on October 24, 2016
Infrared marked cards (and eyeglasses/contact lenses able to detect the markings) is the final plot twist in the 1989 Hong Kong Comedy/Action/Drama movie God of Gamblers.
posted by porpoise at 3:42 PM on October 24, 2016
Such a fun movie (also, "Return of God of Gambers").
I think the big change here is that the markings are on the sides of the cards, not the backs.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:06 PM on October 25, 2016
I think the big change here is that the markings are on the sides of the cards, not the backs.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:06 PM on October 25, 2016
Why bother marking the cards yourself? Let the casino do it for you!
Poker player loses appeal against London casino over £7.7m winnings
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:00 PM on November 3, 2016
Poker player loses appeal against London casino over £7.7m winnings
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:00 PM on November 3, 2016
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posted by Oyéah at 11:59 AM on October 22, 2016 [1 favorite]