"So, Let’s Build A Professional Soccer Team From Scratch..."
November 7, 2016 6:58 AM Subscribe
Last year, Dennis Crowley (co-founder of mobile social networks Dodgeball and Foursquare) decided to invest in a sports team. But instead of going the NBA route of Mark Cuban or Steve Ballmer, Crowley started Kingston Stockade Football Club, a 4th-tier soccer team in upstate New York. Crowley wrote about the establishment of the semi-pro club just before the season started in May, and recapped the season and how his assumptions fared against reality last month.
This is fascinating stuff. I would love to hear what 'start-ups' from other sports have to say. Are there any MeFites who own or work for minor league baseball teams? D-League basketball teams? Hockey development leagues?
Thank you for posting!
posted by dfm500 at 7:46 AM on November 7, 2016
Thank you for posting!
posted by dfm500 at 7:46 AM on November 7, 2016
"$5 for kids 12-and-under, $2 for kids wearing anything soccer related" - what a great idea.
posted by brokkr at 8:27 AM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by brokkr at 8:27 AM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Pretty amazing. Obviously not having paid players and a reliance on other volunteer labor was a huge part of what made this possible to do, and even then the club netted a $20,000 loss on the season. It'll be interesting to see how that evolves.
posted by AndrewInDC at 9:25 AM on November 7, 2016
posted by AndrewInDC at 9:25 AM on November 7, 2016
The end game for Kingston Stockade FC is something similar to what happened to Wimbledon FC in the UK two decades ago.
The sad thing is it's not - there is no pro/rel in the US right now. I'm optimistic it will happen eventually, but it will require a lot of changes at the top levels before it is a reality.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:43 AM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The sad thing is it's not - there is no pro/rel in the US right now. I'm optimistic it will happen eventually, but it will require a lot of changes at the top levels before it is a reality.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:43 AM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hey dfm500, you might enjoy looking into the AUDL and MLU, the two ultimate frisbee leagues that started in 2012 and 2013, respectively. Even if you don't care about ultimate, it's interesting watching them try to turn a fringe sport into a widely recognized (and profitable) one.
posted by Drab_Parts at 10:47 AM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Drab_Parts at 10:47 AM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would love to hear what 'start-ups' from other sports have to say.
The classic example I know comes from Vermont, where about 10 years ago Sports Illustrated writer Alexander Wolff decided to start his own professional basketball team, the Frost Heaves. Which had a pretty good run for awhile, before folding in 2011.
The games I saw were exciting, wide-open, run-and-gun affairs, enlivened by special rules like baskets that, at specific times, counted as four-point shots, and the team roster for every game including a well-known local figure, who actually was expected to play in the game, not just sit on the bench. (In my memory, one night I saw the mayor of Burlington substitute in, briefly, although that might not be accurate. Maybe it was the city council president.)
posted by LeLiLo at 10:59 AM on November 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
The classic example I know comes from Vermont, where about 10 years ago Sports Illustrated writer Alexander Wolff decided to start his own professional basketball team, the Frost Heaves. Which had a pretty good run for awhile, before folding in 2011.
The games I saw were exciting, wide-open, run-and-gun affairs, enlivened by special rules like baskets that, at specific times, counted as four-point shots, and the team roster for every game including a well-known local figure, who actually was expected to play in the game, not just sit on the bench. (In my memory, one night I saw the mayor of Burlington substitute in, briefly, although that might not be accurate. Maybe it was the city council president.)
posted by LeLiLo at 10:59 AM on November 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
The end game for Kingston Stockade FC is something similar to what happened to Wimbledon FC in the UK two decades ago.
The sad thing is it's not - there is no pro/rel in the US right now.
Crowley is explicit about wanting to set up a promotion/relegation system.
posted by Etrigan at 11:37 AM on November 7, 2016
The sad thing is it's not - there is no pro/rel in the US right now.
Crowley is explicit about wanting to set up a promotion/relegation system.
posted by Etrigan at 11:37 AM on November 7, 2016
If you wish to make a professional soccer team from scratch, you must first invent the universe.
posted by CaseyB at 1:06 PM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by CaseyB at 1:06 PM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The end game for Kingston Stockade FC is something similar to what happened to Wimbledon FC in the UK two decades ago.
The sad thing is it's not - there is no pro/rel in the US right now.
I was surprised to read that in the article, or at least surprised at first. On reflection, I'm not. If a league is organized from the top down, it's not in the interests of the franchise owners to allow relegation: it could damage the value of their franchise even if it increased the value of the league.
Bottom-up creation of leagues would seem to favour pro/rel instead, but then I wonder why it didn't happen in baseball, where (at least) the National League coalesced out of independent teams looking for good opponents.
The AL was a "big bang" of franchises created in specific opposition to the NL, and I'm not sufficiently familiar with the other major North American professional sports to know which of those two ways they came to be.
posted by Quindar Beep at 1:09 PM on November 7, 2016
The sad thing is it's not - there is no pro/rel in the US right now.
I was surprised to read that in the article, or at least surprised at first. On reflection, I'm not. If a league is organized from the top down, it's not in the interests of the franchise owners to allow relegation: it could damage the value of their franchise even if it increased the value of the league.
Bottom-up creation of leagues would seem to favour pro/rel instead, but then I wonder why it didn't happen in baseball, where (at least) the National League coalesced out of independent teams looking for good opponents.
The AL was a "big bang" of franchises created in specific opposition to the NL, and I'm not sufficiently familiar with the other major North American professional sports to know which of those two ways they came to be.
posted by Quindar Beep at 1:09 PM on November 7, 2016
Bottom-up creation of leagues would seem to favour pro/rel instead, but then I wonder why it didn't happen in baseball, where (at least) the National League coalesced out of independent teams looking for good opponents.
The NL owners saw that controlling the marketplace was a better idea (for them):
The NL owners saw that controlling the marketplace was a better idea (for them):
The modest National League guarantee of a place in the league year after year would permit the owners to monopolize fan bases in their exclusive territories and give them the confidence to invest in infrastructure, such as improved ballparks. In turn, those would guarantee the revenues to support traveling halfway across a continent for games.posted by Etrigan at 1:18 PM on November 7, 2016
Bottom-up creation of leagues would seem to favour pro/rel instead, but then I wonder why it didn't happen in baseball
The primary reason is geography. The United States is too big. If you want to maintain a league, you have to have teams that reliably stay in the league. For teams to stay in a major, multi-city league in the United States, they have to be able to afford travel costs and be able to afford to pay their players enough that they don't need second jobs that would interfere with their travel schedule. Or to resist the temptation for teams to blow off league road games in favor of off-league games closer to home, as happened in the National Association, which was the immediate spark for creating the National League.
When baseball emerged in the 1860s/70s, these were significant factors. The solution in the form of the National League was a closed league model in which the entity of the league was controlled by the team owners who could guarantee to member teams that no regional competitor would spring up out of the woodwork to siphon their fanbase and profits without their consent.
In contrast, the major metropolitan areas in the U.K. and in Europe are generally close enough together that it really didn't matter if Big City Team decided to spend their off day playing Joe Blow's Weekend Warriors. This made the proliferation of small teams and leagues more financially feasible, leading to the pro/reg pyramid we see today.
posted by AndrewInDC at 1:21 PM on November 7, 2016
The primary reason is geography. The United States is too big. If you want to maintain a league, you have to have teams that reliably stay in the league. For teams to stay in a major, multi-city league in the United States, they have to be able to afford travel costs and be able to afford to pay their players enough that they don't need second jobs that would interfere with their travel schedule. Or to resist the temptation for teams to blow off league road games in favor of off-league games closer to home, as happened in the National Association, which was the immediate spark for creating the National League.
When baseball emerged in the 1860s/70s, these were significant factors. The solution in the form of the National League was a closed league model in which the entity of the league was controlled by the team owners who could guarantee to member teams that no regional competitor would spring up out of the woodwork to siphon their fanbase and profits without their consent.
In contrast, the major metropolitan areas in the U.K. and in Europe are generally close enough together that it really didn't matter if Big City Team decided to spend their off day playing Joe Blow's Weekend Warriors. This made the proliferation of small teams and leagues more financially feasible, leading to the pro/reg pyramid we see today.
posted by AndrewInDC at 1:21 PM on November 7, 2016
A dot-com zillionaire accepted labor power from people in exchange for nothing other than maybe getting in on the ground floor of something, and thereby saved himself at least $330,000 toward a vanity experiment, assuming you have exactly 11 players and pay each one $30,000 for a season?
I am shocked.
posted by radicalawyer at 1:35 PM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am shocked.
posted by radicalawyer at 1:35 PM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The primary reason is geography. The United States is too big.
I wonder. I've often thought that the British independent music scene flourished as compared to the American one -- pace Motown -- due to population density (and on the flip side, no pun intended, that the Canadian independent scene was canoeing uphill for the same reason). Or at least it did when physical distribution of the music was an issue.
An odd parallel that, if the increased density also nurtured pro/rel, or to picture the current three monster labels as the musical equivalent of closed leagues.
posted by Quindar Beep at 1:36 PM on November 7, 2016
I wonder. I've often thought that the British independent music scene flourished as compared to the American one -- pace Motown -- due to population density (and on the flip side, no pun intended, that the Canadian independent scene was canoeing uphill for the same reason). Or at least it did when physical distribution of the music was an issue.
An odd parallel that, if the increased density also nurtured pro/rel, or to picture the current three monster labels as the musical equivalent of closed leagues.
posted by Quindar Beep at 1:36 PM on November 7, 2016
I wonder what the timing of this was compared to the fairly recent story about FC United Manchester.
posted by rhizome at 1:52 PM on November 7, 2016
posted by rhizome at 1:52 PM on November 7, 2016
Another reason against a pyramid format in the US is that if there's enough money around, you can suck like a nuclear-powered Hoover and still cash in without repercussions other than a pissed-off fanbase. Lerner, of the incredibly successful Cleveland Browns NFL franchise, managed to send Aston Villa to the Championship, and it might take a while before their return.
Once a team has to present results to play at a certain stage, the punishment for failure is much higher. This is why UEFA is looking for a way to get highly marketable failures like Man Utd and Milan back into the Champions League at the expense of teams that finished second in mid-tier leagues, let alone actual champions.
posted by lmfsilva at 2:11 PM on November 7, 2016
Once a team has to present results to play at a certain stage, the punishment for failure is much higher. This is why UEFA is looking for a way to get highly marketable failures like Man Utd and Milan back into the Champions League at the expense of teams that finished second in mid-tier leagues, let alone actual champions.
posted by lmfsilva at 2:11 PM on November 7, 2016
A dot-com zillionaire accepted labor power from people in exchange for nothing other than maybe getting in on the ground floor of something, and thereby saved himself at least $330,000 toward a vanity experiment, assuming you have exactly 11 players and pay each one $30,000 for a season?
Suggesting that you neither read the article nor know anything about amateur sports.
posted by wilful at 2:38 PM on November 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Suggesting that you neither read the article nor know anything about amateur sports.
posted by wilful at 2:38 PM on November 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
…to invest in infrastructure, such as improved ballparks…
Utterly hilarious! When was the last time an owner/oligarch payed for an new stadium themself, instead of soaking the local taxpayers?
posted by monotreme at 5:54 PM on November 7, 2016
Utterly hilarious! When was the last time an owner/oligarch payed for an new stadium themself, instead of soaking the local taxpayers?
posted by monotreme at 5:54 PM on November 7, 2016
When was the last time an owner/oligarch payed for an new stadium themself, instead of soaking the local taxpayers?
Decades after the formation of the National League.
posted by Etrigan at 6:28 PM on November 7, 2016
Decades after the formation of the National League.
posted by Etrigan at 6:28 PM on November 7, 2016
Kraft paid Gillette Stadium from his own pocket, but IIRC that might have been because he (as the previous owners) was tired of jerking and being jerked around all over the Northeast with denied permits and projects during the 90s.
posted by lmfsilva at 10:11 PM on November 7, 2016
posted by lmfsilva at 10:11 PM on November 7, 2016
I came here to mention AFC Wimbledon too, as it's an incredibly inspiring story of how this can really work out. Thanks for posting.
posted by guster4lovers at 6:22 PM on November 10, 2016
posted by guster4lovers at 6:22 PM on November 10, 2016
"We set up Stockade FC as a non-profit, we’re currently not paying our players,"
first half of my comment was factually correct
“So, Let’s Build A Professional Soccer Team From Scratch …”
stated purpose is at odds with your characterization of it as "amateur sports"
posted by radicalawyer at 11:54 AM on November 11, 2016
first half of my comment was factually correct
“So, Let’s Build A Professional Soccer Team From Scratch …”
stated purpose is at odds with your characterization of it as "amateur sports"
posted by radicalawyer at 11:54 AM on November 11, 2016
« Older Why video games bore some people. | Janet Reno, 1938-2016 Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
As they were a new club they started all the way down at Level 9 of the English league system in 2002. Since then they've risen six tiers to English Football League One, which is just two notches down from the Premier League and, ironically, now the same division as Milton Keynes FC. I've never even watched a game, but it's been really interesting to watch from the outside as a story of fan empowerment.
posted by Quindar Beep at 7:30 AM on November 7, 2016 [1 favorite]