The UK is watching you
November 23, 2016 4:59 AM Subscribe
While we have all been diverted by other things, Edward Snowden tweeted last week that "The UK has just legalized the most extreme surveillance in the history of western democracy. It goes farther than many autocracies."
He is referring to the Investigatory Powers Bill, also known as the Snooper's Charter, which has passed Parliament and is now set to become law in the UK. Here's a Wired overview.
ZDNet: "civil liberties groups have long criticized the bill, with some arguing that the law will let the UK government "document everything we do online". It's no wonder, because it basically does".
Guardian: Extreme surveillance' becomes UK law with barely a whimper
If that is not enough, the Digital Economy Bill is on its way as well.
It contains a controversial amendment which would force ISPs to block all websites that do not meet British Film Board requirements (e.g. porn among other categories) and lack age verification checks.
Guardian again: Campaigners label bill targeted at online pornography a ‘prurient’ intervention that will take Britain’s censorship regime back to pre-internet era
He is referring to the Investigatory Powers Bill, also known as the Snooper's Charter, which has passed Parliament and is now set to become law in the UK. Here's a Wired overview.
ZDNet: "civil liberties groups have long criticized the bill, with some arguing that the law will let the UK government "document everything we do online". It's no wonder, because it basically does".
Guardian: Extreme surveillance' becomes UK law with barely a whimper
If that is not enough, the Digital Economy Bill is on its way as well.
It contains a controversial amendment which would force ISPs to block all websites that do not meet British Film Board requirements (e.g. porn among other categories) and lack age verification checks.
Guardian again: Campaigners label bill targeted at online pornography a ‘prurient’ intervention that will take Britain’s censorship regime back to pre-internet era
Labour and the SNP supported this. Lib Dems only have 8 MPs.
posted by Coda Tronca at 5:17 AM on November 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Coda Tronca at 5:17 AM on November 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
The age of liberalism is dead in the UK. Freed from its ties to the continent and the suspiciously permissive ideologies of its' garlic-eating, wine-drinking inhabitants, the mighty Elizabethan galleon that is Britain will chart its own course. Some ideas will come from former colonies which have done well, like Singapore and Dubai; but let it not be said we're not open to new ways of thinking wherever they may originate; and there are a lot of dynamic new countries whose leaders have property investments and scions in boarding schools in England.
posted by acb at 5:37 AM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by acb at 5:37 AM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
See also: the proposal to require a passport to be shown before receiving NHS treatment. Which doesn't even make any sense because it's not necessary to be a UK passport holder to be eligible for NHS treatment (the criteria is that you are ordinarily resident). And of course the many people who don't have a passport for various reasons. Including me (can't afford to renew, not going abroad), my 83 year old aunt, and my son.
I had cause on Monday to ring two NHS helplines (not 999). After my name, address, DOB and phone number the next and only piece of demographic information they requested was my ethnicity. When I asked why they needed this information the helpline operator replied "oh it's just standard, and I can't move on from this question until you answer it".
This country is genuinely fucking terrifying at the moment.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:39 AM on November 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
I had cause on Monday to ring two NHS helplines (not 999). After my name, address, DOB and phone number the next and only piece of demographic information they requested was my ethnicity. When I asked why they needed this information the helpline operator replied "oh it's just standard, and I can't move on from this question until you answer it".
This country is genuinely fucking terrifying at the moment.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:39 AM on November 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
The organisations that can access your Internet history include the Department of Work and Pensions. There's a sentence to strike fear into many a disabled or unemployed (or both!) person's soul.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:43 AM on November 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:43 AM on November 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
NHS ethnic monitoring is not new though and is done for plenty of good reasons.
posted by Coda Tronca at 5:45 AM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Coda Tronca at 5:45 AM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Coming from a place where British Intelligence was rather fond of snooping, there's a running joke in our house when the mobile's playing up or the computer is being an arse. "It's the Brits, they're watching us!" we chuckle. Not so funny any more...
posted by billiebee at 5:50 AM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 5:50 AM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the one hand, state surveillance sort of doesn't bother me in the sense that I don't express any inflammatory sentiment or opinion anywhere online, I'd say, and I don't think I visit any contentious sites either.
But two things really do terrify me. One is the changing definition of what in a government's view counts as inflammatory or contentious, which I fear will expand and expand until we're all supposed to think a single, pro-totalitarian government-supporting set of opinions and beliefs, because totalitarian is what it will be at that point. The other is that one day this opens the door to corporations being granted similar access and anything I view or write then affecting what I'm allowed to do or buy and how much I have to pay for it, like insurance or even the work I can do.
I don't think I've ever considered that I'd write the above, but it really does feel like a major step towards the kind of future we used to read about in English literature lessons, shudder, and then decide it would never happen in real life. Yikes. And no doubt people who pay more attention to this than I do will tell me we're a lot closer than I think.
posted by dowcrag at 5:51 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
But two things really do terrify me. One is the changing definition of what in a government's view counts as inflammatory or contentious, which I fear will expand and expand until we're all supposed to think a single, pro-totalitarian government-supporting set of opinions and beliefs, because totalitarian is what it will be at that point. The other is that one day this opens the door to corporations being granted similar access and anything I view or write then affecting what I'm allowed to do or buy and how much I have to pay for it, like insurance or even the work I can do.
I don't think I've ever considered that I'd write the above, but it really does feel like a major step towards the kind of future we used to read about in English literature lessons, shudder, and then decide it would never happen in real life. Yikes. And no doubt people who pay more attention to this than I do will tell me we're a lot closer than I think.
posted by dowcrag at 5:51 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
NHS ethnic monitoring is not new though and is done for plenty of good reasons.
Well, ok, what are these reasons? And if it is necessary then a helpline operator should absolutely be able to explain why, not least because it's sensitive personal data.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:53 AM on November 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, ok, what are these reasons? And if it is necessary then a helpline operator should absolutely be able to explain why, not least because it's sensitive personal data.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:53 AM on November 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
On the one hand, state surveillance sort of doesn't bother me in the sense that I don't express any inflammatory sentiment or opinion anywhere online, I'd say, and I don't think I visit any contentious sites either.
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, citizen.
posted by faceplantingcheetah at 5:54 AM on November 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, citizen.
posted by faceplantingcheetah at 5:54 AM on November 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yes the helpline operator should have a script reflecting the boilerplate NHS text on this:
"Information about ethnic group is required in order to comply with the provisions of the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000 which requires public authorities to eliminate racial discrimination and promote equality of opportunity and good race relations. It is also required for the purpose of responding sensitively and appropriately to a person’s social care needs. Under the Data Protection Act 1998 clients have the right to see their records and have errors rectified, so it is important that they consent to the record held, and agencies ensure that the information is accurate."
posted by Coda Tronca at 6:00 AM on November 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
"Information about ethnic group is required in order to comply with the provisions of the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000 which requires public authorities to eliminate racial discrimination and promote equality of opportunity and good race relations. It is also required for the purpose of responding sensitively and appropriately to a person’s social care needs. Under the Data Protection Act 1998 clients have the right to see their records and have errors rectified, so it is important that they consent to the record held, and agencies ensure that the information is accurate."
posted by Coda Tronca at 6:00 AM on November 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, citizen.
See, that's the problem. I'm OK with thinking that when it's my own opinion, if that makes sense. But speaking as someone who's doesn't hold extreme views, I'm terrified that someone else might be deciding, on my behalf, whether they think that's really the case, based on their own definition of what's OK and what's not.
posted by dowcrag at 6:01 AM on November 23, 2016
See, that's the problem. I'm OK with thinking that when it's my own opinion, if that makes sense. But speaking as someone who's doesn't hold extreme views, I'm terrified that someone else might be deciding, on my behalf, whether they think that's really the case, based on their own definition of what's OK and what's not.
posted by dowcrag at 6:01 AM on November 23, 2016
But speaking as someone who's doesn't hold extreme views
Though the number of people who would admit to holding extreme views is vanishingly small, and you can usually identify them by the froth pouring out of their mouths. Generally people think that whatever they believe, however bonkers, is the sensible middle.
posted by Grangousier at 6:09 AM on November 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Though the number of people who would admit to holding extreme views is vanishingly small, and you can usually identify them by the froth pouring out of their mouths. Generally people think that whatever they believe, however bonkers, is the sensible middle.
posted by Grangousier at 6:09 AM on November 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Well, I can guarantee everyone here at least is associating with people holding extreme views on virtually every imaginable topic, judging from things I've read over the years. As would normally be the case then for surveillance, association is suggestive of sympathy, so were I in the government spy business, I'd consider anyone posting on here suspect enough to at least consider looking into their business a good bit further. And if there was enough smoke, then the assumption of there being a fire follows right behind and makes those associations something close to collaborations. Slippery slope and all, can't be too careful.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:16 AM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 6:16 AM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
it's not necessary to be a UK passport holder to be eligible for NHS treatment (the criteria is that you are ordinarily resident)
Not the only criteria - if you're on non-EU citizen and resident here on a spousal visa then you are charged in advance (£200 a year payable when making the application) for your NHS treatment, whether you receive any or not. I'm sure the Government is looking forward to applying this to all non-UK citizens when everybody needs a visa.
And of course the many people who don't have a passport for various reasons.
My parents have a friend who doesn't have one in protest against the red "European" passport and the loss of her "proper" blue one. I would chuckle if she had to get one simply to receive treatment on the NHS.
posted by jontyjago at 6:20 AM on November 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not the only criteria - if you're on non-EU citizen and resident here on a spousal visa then you are charged in advance (£200 a year payable when making the application) for your NHS treatment, whether you receive any or not. I'm sure the Government is looking forward to applying this to all non-UK citizens when everybody needs a visa.
And of course the many people who don't have a passport for various reasons.
My parents have a friend who doesn't have one in protest against the red "European" passport and the loss of her "proper" blue one. I would chuckle if she had to get one simply to receive treatment on the NHS.
posted by jontyjago at 6:20 AM on November 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
But speaking as someone who's doesn't hold extreme viewsHere's a view: Pregnant women with unviable pregnancies must be forced to carry their pregnancies to term, even if it kills the mother and child.
Is that an extreme view? Because it's public policy in El Salvador and Ireland.
Is it an *extreme view* to oppose that?
You already hold extreme views. You are being watched closely.
Nothing to worry about.
Yet.
posted by Combat Wombat at 6:20 AM on November 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
My recollection of the progress of societal surveillance begins with London's proliferation of CCTVs before 2000. NY and LA were close behind. I lived in LA (2002-2005) and was slow to realize the creep of 9-11 and LA's budgetary convictions of "We're Next".
Where my narrative splits from the conventional "state" versus "corporate" distinction is...how and when they were and were NOT separate. The internet was viewed, prior to 2000, as a public space from which the prudently minded guarded themselves. Age/Sex/Location was precious information. All that manufacturing distributors forming databases might ask was a ZIP code...
Friendster (Stalkster) and MySpace, and then the juggernaut of FaceBook normalized the sharing of personal information. And there's even legitimacy to it...a generational shift of what traveling on the Information Super Highway means...
Snowden is neither a patriot or traitor...his motivations were professed...he was more than likely agitated and profiled: His revelations were necessary to address what corporate databases were being applied (indices) by what governmental sanction (in both meanings of the word). A parity had to be addressed. For fuck's sake: consumer algorithms were informing families of hidden pregnancy (pun intended). Corporate databases were on par with the profiles of targeted citizens.
And just how many British and American citizens have been profiled since ...when? How many files of how many investigations sit in a cabinet having never faced the scrutiny of a judge?
posted by lazycomputerkids at 6:27 AM on November 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where my narrative splits from the conventional "state" versus "corporate" distinction is...how and when they were and were NOT separate. The internet was viewed, prior to 2000, as a public space from which the prudently minded guarded themselves. Age/Sex/Location was precious information. All that manufacturing distributors forming databases might ask was a ZIP code...
Friendster (Stalkster) and MySpace, and then the juggernaut of FaceBook normalized the sharing of personal information. And there's even legitimacy to it...a generational shift of what traveling on the Information Super Highway means...
Snowden is neither a patriot or traitor...his motivations were professed...he was more than likely agitated and profiled: His revelations were necessary to address what corporate databases were being applied (indices) by what governmental sanction (in both meanings of the word). A parity had to be addressed. For fuck's sake: consumer algorithms were informing families of hidden pregnancy (pun intended). Corporate databases were on par with the profiles of targeted citizens.
And just how many British and American citizens have been profiled since ...when? How many files of how many investigations sit in a cabinet having never faced the scrutiny of a judge?
posted by lazycomputerkids at 6:27 AM on November 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
> The organisations that can access your Internet history include the Department of Work and Pensions.
I wonder if current ministers would be happy with their family's Internet history being freely available. I mean, if they've done nothing wrong there should be nothing for them to fear, right?
posted by Auz at 6:35 AM on November 23, 2016
I wonder if current ministers would be happy with their family's Internet history being freely available. I mean, if they've done nothing wrong there should be nothing for them to fear, right?
posted by Auz at 6:35 AM on November 23, 2016
Depends on how many dead pigs' heads are in said internet history.
posted by delfin at 6:37 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by delfin at 6:37 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
state surveillance sort of doesn't bother me in the sense that I don't express any inflammatory sentiment or opinion anywhere online, I'd say, and I don't think I visit any contentious sites either.
"Inflammatory sentiment" is a moving target, and moving rapidly right now. Can any of us be so sure that a 12-month log of our visits wouldn't contain anything that could be used against us? December 2015 feels like a long time ago.
Browser histories are perfect tools for policing thoughtcrime. Think how much the links we follow from Metafilter or Twitter could say about what we're thinking about, and where our political sympathies lie.
Even without a cyber-Stasi, there's potentially plenty to fear from copyright agencies, given that "6.7 million UK internet users aged 12+ consumed at least one item of online content illegally over the three-month period March-May 2016".
posted by rory at 6:50 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Inflammatory sentiment" is a moving target, and moving rapidly right now. Can any of us be so sure that a 12-month log of our visits wouldn't contain anything that could be used against us? December 2015 feels like a long time ago.
Browser histories are perfect tools for policing thoughtcrime. Think how much the links we follow from Metafilter or Twitter could say about what we're thinking about, and where our political sympathies lie.
Even without a cyber-Stasi, there's potentially plenty to fear from copyright agencies, given that "6.7 million UK internet users aged 12+ consumed at least one item of online content illegally over the three-month period March-May 2016".
posted by rory at 6:50 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
express any inflammatory sentiment or opinion
A lot of the AI work in 'natural language processing' for Amazon/Google/etc is probably a cover for identifying people who are likely to think differently, so they can be tracked earlier and so that the state can take part in online discussions with activists Turing-style.
Meanwhile every time there's a big attack like Hebdo or Bataclan, it turns out the killers have been running around back and forth from Syria and known to the authorities for years.
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:00 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
A lot of the AI work in 'natural language processing' for Amazon/Google/etc is probably a cover for identifying people who are likely to think differently, so they can be tracked earlier and so that the state can take part in online discussions with activists Turing-style.
Meanwhile every time there's a big attack like Hebdo or Bataclan, it turns out the killers have been running around back and forth from Syria and known to the authorities for years.
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:00 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
NHS ethnic monitoring is not new though and is done for plenty of good reasons.
Well, ok, what are these reasons?
General attitude in the UK public sector seems to be that ethnicity data should be taken at every opportunity in order to show a commitment to equal opportunities.
Rarely is anything at all done with that data.
posted by iotic at 7:15 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, ok, what are these reasons?
General attitude in the UK public sector seems to be that ethnicity data should be taken at every opportunity in order to show a commitment to equal opportunities.
Rarely is anything at all done with that data.
posted by iotic at 7:15 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile every time there's a big attack like Hebdo or Bataclan, it turns out the killers have been running around back and forth from Syria and known to the authorities for years.
It's almost as if they didn't really want to stop them...
posted by Naberius at 7:18 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's almost as if they didn't really want to stop them...
posted by Naberius at 7:18 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
This all makes me less inclined to use the internet in general. At least if I send a physical letter someone has to go to a little more trouble to intercept, transcribe, archive & cross-reference my inane ramblings.
posted by zmacw49 at 7:18 AM on November 23, 2016
posted by zmacw49 at 7:18 AM on November 23, 2016
The replies to my posts just confirm my point, I think (but add to my worries). I can think of people I know quite well but who hold views I'd think of as pretty extreme (within the bounds of the pregnancy rights example above), and I'm connected with them via phone and email records. And I can also think of people politically active in the UK who would probably want me re-educated to eradicate my leftie, liberal progressive views, and whose own views are becoming mainstream.
Doesn't this mean that ultimately liberals are doomed to failure, because the only way to ensure liberal views can prevail (like women's rights regarding pregnancy, or anything else, for that matter) can end up being to act like conservatives and enforce them on people? I don't know. I'm 45 but I'm only really starting to think about this now after the events of this year.
What can I read to learn more about all this?
posted by dowcrag at 7:41 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Doesn't this mean that ultimately liberals are doomed to failure, because the only way to ensure liberal views can prevail (like women's rights regarding pregnancy, or anything else, for that matter) can end up being to act like conservatives and enforce them on people? I don't know. I'm 45 but I'm only really starting to think about this now after the events of this year.
What can I read to learn more about all this?
posted by dowcrag at 7:41 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just posted a question based around this, before realising there was a thread.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:41 AM on November 23, 2016
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:41 AM on November 23, 2016
What can I read to learn more about all this?
It isn't about cyber-surveillance, but I can't think of a better place to start thinking about these issues than Anna Funder's 2004 book Stasiland, about the surveillance culture surrounding the East German secret police. The 2006 movie The Lives of Others explores the same theme; here's Funder's review of it.
posted by rory at 8:02 AM on November 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
It isn't about cyber-surveillance, but I can't think of a better place to start thinking about these issues than Anna Funder's 2004 book Stasiland, about the surveillance culture surrounding the East German secret police. The 2006 movie The Lives of Others explores the same theme; here's Funder's review of it.
posted by rory at 8:02 AM on November 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the one hand, state surveillance sort of doesn't bother me in the sense that I don't express any inflammatory sentiment or opinion anywhere online, I'd say, and I don't think I visit any contentious sites either.
that's cute.
"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." –attributed to Cardinal Richelieu.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:17 AM on November 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
that's cute.
"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." –attributed to Cardinal Richelieu.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:17 AM on November 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
At least if I send a physical letter someone has to go to a little more trouble to intercept, transcribe, archive & cross-reference my inane ramblings.
The US postal service already takes photographs and stores logs of every letter sent, from and to whom. Which is more than enough to build a list of "sympathies" on based on who you're talking to.
But more conspirtorial, the ability to scan and OCR unopened letters is already here. How long until that makes it into the post? Is it already there? The CIA supposedly owns the internet backbone already. What were they doing before that?
The post is hardly safer than the nets.
posted by mayonnaises at 8:20 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The US postal service already takes photographs and stores logs of every letter sent, from and to whom. Which is more than enough to build a list of "sympathies" on based on who you're talking to.
But more conspirtorial, the ability to scan and OCR unopened letters is already here. How long until that makes it into the post? Is it already there? The CIA supposedly owns the internet backbone already. What were they doing before that?
The post is hardly safer than the nets.
posted by mayonnaises at 8:20 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
→ Labour and the SNP supported this
The SNP absolutely did not support this: 50 of the 69 votes against this were from the SNP, and no SNP member voted for it.
posted by scruss at 8:33 AM on November 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
The SNP absolutely did not support this: 50 of the 69 votes against this were from the SNP, and no SNP member voted for it.
posted by scruss at 8:33 AM on November 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
The post is hardly safer than the nets.
I didn’t suppose it was. But even if it’s just more complicated & annoying than surveilling the equivalent e-mail, I could take some small satisfaction from that.
posted by zmacw49 at 8:36 AM on November 23, 2016
I didn’t suppose it was. But even if it’s just more complicated & annoying than surveilling the equivalent e-mail, I could take some small satisfaction from that.
posted by zmacw49 at 8:36 AM on November 23, 2016
state surveillance sort of doesn't bother me in the sense that I don't express any inflammatory sentiment or opinion anywhere online
It's really important to stand up for the civil rights of everyone, and not just yourself, though. I think there is a poem about that.
I don't think I'm going to get in trouble for anything I say online. What I say, there are a million others saying as well. We need to be deeper down the rabbithole before I'm personally at risk. But it's not just me, you know?
Imagine the state monitoring who views information on the web about abortion drugs, for example. I shudder to think of what a right-wing law enforcement apparatus would do with these powers.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:37 AM on November 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's really important to stand up for the civil rights of everyone, and not just yourself, though. I think there is a poem about that.
I don't think I'm going to get in trouble for anything I say online. What I say, there are a million others saying as well. We need to be deeper down the rabbithole before I'm personally at risk. But it's not just me, you know?
Imagine the state monitoring who views information on the web about abortion drugs, for example. I shudder to think of what a right-wing law enforcement apparatus would do with these powers.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:37 AM on November 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
You already hold extreme views. You are being watched closely.
Nothing to worry about.
"A ruthless minority of people seems to have forgotten certain good old-fashioned virtues. They just can't stand seeing the other fellow win. If these people would just play the game, they'd get a lot more out of life."
posted by kewb at 8:46 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nothing to worry about.
"A ruthless minority of people seems to have forgotten certain good old-fashioned virtues. They just can't stand seeing the other fellow win. If these people would just play the game, they'd get a lot more out of life."
posted by kewb at 8:46 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mind you, even if you've done nothing illegal, most everyone has done or searched or has internet history can be spun into something horrible.
And even if this information is collected by responsible people and used responsibly by the government, how long until its leaked? Internet security has basically given up on preventing all intrusion. That's not a realistic goal.
So the end result of even having this information is that eventually all your enemies have a treasure trove of blackmail material on everyone. And that means every single future politician, military officer, nuclear weapons engineer, anyone who makes decisions and has access to classified material.
That's basically suicide for any democracy.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:42 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
And even if this information is collected by responsible people and used responsibly by the government, how long until its leaked? Internet security has basically given up on preventing all intrusion. That's not a realistic goal.
So the end result of even having this information is that eventually all your enemies have a treasure trove of blackmail material on everyone. And that means every single future politician, military officer, nuclear weapons engineer, anyone who makes decisions and has access to classified material.
That's basically suicide for any democracy.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:42 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The thing that worries me the most, as a British citizen and IT Consultant, is the security of the data being collected.
Given the lack of ability shown thus far by the Government on keeping people's private data secure, it seems to me that the only people who are going to benefit are the crooks, who now only have to crack one source for all the information they need on as many people as they like.
posted by Burn_IT at 11:18 AM on November 23, 2016
Given the lack of ability shown thus far by the Government on keeping people's private data secure, it seems to me that the only people who are going to benefit are the crooks, who now only have to crack one source for all the information they need on as many people as they like.
posted by Burn_IT at 11:18 AM on November 23, 2016
The SNP absolutely did not support this: 50 of the 69 votes against this were from the SNP, and no SNP member voted for it.
And I again mutter under my breath the Scottish prayer, "O blessed St Nicola of Sturgeon, deliver us from the insanity being launched upon us..."
posted by Vortisaur at 12:38 PM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
And I again mutter under my breath the Scottish prayer, "O blessed St Nicola of Sturgeon, deliver us from the insanity being launched upon us..."
posted by Vortisaur at 12:38 PM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
As per usual, my Brexit Supporting, Right Wing, Rangers Supporting, family members spout nothing about this, but are mooing about some new supposed crime perpetrated on the UK by "foreigners"
They are going to whinge themselves into a despotic state run by the very people they claim to hate.
posted by NiteMayr at 1:11 PM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
They are going to whinge themselves into a despotic state run by the very people they claim to hate.
posted by NiteMayr at 1:11 PM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
threetwentytwo: "the next and only piece of demographic information they requested was my ethnicity. When I asked why they needed this information the helpline operator replied "oh it's just standard, and I can't move on from this question until you answer it". "
If this sort of questioning bothers you one tiny way to fight back is to describe your ethnicity Tiger Woods Style going as many generations back as necessary to generate a sufficiently long word salad.
posted by Mitheral at 1:11 PM on November 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
If this sort of questioning bothers you one tiny way to fight back is to describe your ethnicity Tiger Woods Style going as many generations back as necessary to generate a sufficiently long word salad.
posted by Mitheral at 1:11 PM on November 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The UK's impending surveillance state and Marmite are my rejoinder to all the Downton Abbey fetishists on Facebook continually posting twee variations on their foamy filtered anglophile dreams of reuniting with jolly ole in reaction to our soon-to-be-installed con man stateside—a desire to live in the UK as a modern human, at this point, seems like a form of abject masochism.
posted by sonascope at 3:37 AM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sonascope at 3:37 AM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, ok, what are these reasons? And if it is necessary then a helpline operator should absolutely be able to explain why, not least because it's sensitive personal data.
It's been a little over a decade since I was providing guidance on behalf of the Department of Health on collecting ethnicity data so things might have changed. And yes, you are absolutely right that there should have been a script for the operator if questioned. From memory the big points are:
posted by Francis at 4:01 AM on November 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's been a little over a decade since I was providing guidance on behalf of the Department of Health on collecting ethnicity data so things might have changed. And yes, you are absolutely right that there should have been a script for the operator if questioned. From memory the big points are:
- "I refuse to say" is always an acceptable response to being asked to provide your ethnicity. The person at the other end of the phone will not present you with the option but if they've come close to following the guidance it will be there for them to tick.
- We can not in practice tell if we are disproportionately failing people of one ethnicity or another unless we collect that data and compare it to the surrounding community. If a service in e.g. Tower Hamlets is only treating white people something has gone wrong - but we need either data or massive inspections to check this.
- In the NHS in particular there are a number of medical risks related to your ethnicity and where a certain ethnicity is a risk factor (most notably Black African and diabetes but there are plenty of others).
posted by Francis at 4:01 AM on November 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Snowden giving a very persuasive rebuttal to the "nothing to hide" argument.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 4:13 AM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 4:13 AM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Despite representations from many ISPs the Act is still also flawed technically. In particular, ISPs are supposed to store what are called Internet Connection Records, which are apparently defined as:
1. A customer account reference – this may be an account number or an identifier of the customer’s device or internet connection;
2. The date/time of the start and end of the event or its duration;
3. The source IP address and port;
4. The destination IP address and port – this is the address of the service accessed on the internet and could be considered as equivalent to a dialled telephone number. The port additionally provides an indication of the type of service (for example website, email server, file sharing service, etc.);
5. The volume of data transferred in either, or both, directions;
6. The name of the internet service or server connected to; and
7. Those elements of a URL which constitute communications data – this is the web address which is the text you type in the address bar in an internet browser. In most cases this will simply be the domain name – e.g. socialmedia.com.
So it's not going as far as recording a complete web history (breaching EU law) but is still very geared towards an unencrypted HTTP-centric world. With a secure connection the information required in point 7 would not be available (except for looking up the domain from the destination IP address) and there could be multiple different servers on the same destination IP address. There's also a problematic split between metadata and communications data and those words "in most cases" - and the deeper the packet inspection goes the more it will cost to implement.
With long-lived connections, such as for messaging or social media, connections could be open for days and provide little useful data for purported use cases like checking whether a missing teenager had logged on to Facebook. Then there is UDP, the rawest form of Internet data transfer - are ISPs supposed to log every packet or implement some hideous aggregation of packets passing through in a time period? And of course with an easily purchased VPN on your mobile or PC you can circumvent the whole monitoring anyway.
Not only will the data stored be at risk from unauthorised access, I could also see ISPs deciding that if they have to store this information then they may as well make it a profit centre and find ways to use it for marketing purposes. Services like Phorm will be back in the UK market again I'm sure.
posted by kerplunk at 7:07 AM on November 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
1. A customer account reference – this may be an account number or an identifier of the customer’s device or internet connection;
2. The date/time of the start and end of the event or its duration;
3. The source IP address and port;
4. The destination IP address and port – this is the address of the service accessed on the internet and could be considered as equivalent to a dialled telephone number. The port additionally provides an indication of the type of service (for example website, email server, file sharing service, etc.);
5. The volume of data transferred in either, or both, directions;
6. The name of the internet service or server connected to; and
7. Those elements of a URL which constitute communications data – this is the web address which is the text you type in the address bar in an internet browser. In most cases this will simply be the domain name – e.g. socialmedia.com.
So it's not going as far as recording a complete web history (breaching EU law) but is still very geared towards an unencrypted HTTP-centric world. With a secure connection the information required in point 7 would not be available (except for looking up the domain from the destination IP address) and there could be multiple different servers on the same destination IP address. There's also a problematic split between metadata and communications data and those words "in most cases" - and the deeper the packet inspection goes the more it will cost to implement.
With long-lived connections, such as for messaging or social media, connections could be open for days and provide little useful data for purported use cases like checking whether a missing teenager had logged on to Facebook. Then there is UDP, the rawest form of Internet data transfer - are ISPs supposed to log every packet or implement some hideous aggregation of packets passing through in a time period? And of course with an easily purchased VPN on your mobile or PC you can circumvent the whole monitoring anyway.
Not only will the data stored be at risk from unauthorised access, I could also see ISPs deciding that if they have to store this information then they may as well make it a profit centre and find ways to use it for marketing purposes. Services like Phorm will be back in the UK market again I'm sure.
posted by kerplunk at 7:07 AM on November 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here is a List of all the Agencies that can access your data.
posted by adamvasco at 4:15 PM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 4:15 PM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thatcher pushed for breakup of welfare state despite NHS pledge
Though note, in the 1980s there were still politicians with enough common sense to stop her. The current government's only real opposition is reality itself. Which is going to come down on us like a ton of bricks, while they get away with it again.
posted by Grangousier at 12:41 AM on November 25, 2016
Though note, in the 1980s there were still politicians with enough common sense to stop her. The current government's only real opposition is reality itself. Which is going to come down on us like a ton of bricks, while they get away with it again.
posted by Grangousier at 12:41 AM on November 25, 2016
That list:
Metropolitan police force
City of London police force
Police forces maintained under section 2 of the Police Act 1996
Police Service of Scotland
Police Service of Northern Ireland
British Transport Police
Ministry of Defence Police
Royal Navy Police
Royal Military Police
Royal Air Force Police
Security Service
Secret Intelligence Service
GCHQ
Ministry of Defence
Department of Health
Home Office
Ministry of Justice
National Crime Agency
HM Revenue & Customs
Department for Transport
Department for Work and Pensions
NHS trusts and foundation trusts in England that provide ambulance services
Common Services Agency for the Scottish Health Service
Competition and Markets Authority
Criminal Cases Review Commission
Department for Communities in Northern Ireland
Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland
Department of Justice in Northern Ireland
Financial Conduct Authority
Fire and rescue authorities under the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004
Food Standards Agency
Food Standards Scotland
Gambling Commission
Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority
Health and Safety Executive
Independent Police Complaints Commissioner
Information Commissioner
NHS Business Services Authority
Northern Ireland Ambulance Service Health and Social Care Trust
Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service Board
Northern Ireland Health and Social Care Regional Business Services Organisation
Office of Communications
Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
Police Investigations and Review Commissioner
Scottish Ambulance Service Board
Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission
Serious Fraud Office
Welsh Ambulance Services National Health Service Trust
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:03 AM on November 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Metropolitan police force
City of London police force
Police forces maintained under section 2 of the Police Act 1996
Police Service of Scotland
Police Service of Northern Ireland
British Transport Police
Ministry of Defence Police
Royal Navy Police
Royal Military Police
Royal Air Force Police
Security Service
Secret Intelligence Service
GCHQ
Ministry of Defence
Department of Health
Home Office
Ministry of Justice
National Crime Agency
HM Revenue & Customs
Department for Transport
Department for Work and Pensions
NHS trusts and foundation trusts in England that provide ambulance services
Common Services Agency for the Scottish Health Service
Competition and Markets Authority
Criminal Cases Review Commission
Department for Communities in Northern Ireland
Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland
Department of Justice in Northern Ireland
Financial Conduct Authority
Fire and rescue authorities under the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004
Food Standards Agency
Food Standards Scotland
Gambling Commission
Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority
Health and Safety Executive
Independent Police Complaints Commissioner
Information Commissioner
NHS Business Services Authority
Northern Ireland Ambulance Service Health and Social Care Trust
Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service Board
Northern Ireland Health and Social Care Regional Business Services Organisation
Office of Communications
Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
Police Investigations and Review Commissioner
Scottish Ambulance Service Board
Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission
Serious Fraud Office
Welsh Ambulance Services National Health Service Trust
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:03 AM on November 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Couple of things that people can do if they want to oppose the bill:
- join the Open Rights Group who've been consistently campaigning against this bill and its numerous predecessors. They also have a specific petition against the censorship measures in the Digital Economy Bill
- sign the parliamentary petition against the IP bill - it's now quite close to 100,000 signatures, at which point parliament has to debate it
posted by crocomancer at 3:11 AM on November 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
- join the Open Rights Group who've been consistently campaigning against this bill and its numerous predecessors. They also have a specific petition against the censorship measures in the Digital Economy Bill
- sign the parliamentary petition against the IP bill - it's now quite close to 100,000 signatures, at which point parliament has to debate it
posted by crocomancer at 3:11 AM on November 26, 2016 [3 favorites]
Petition is now past 100K. I don't expect this to make much difference in practice but I think it's important to continue to make the argument. With my cynical hat on, I think the regular reappearance of similar legislation under both Labour and Tory governments + what we know from Snowden etc, is that all the things the bill enables have been going on for a long time, but the spooks are worried they don't have sufficient legal cover.
posted by crocomancer at 11:27 AM on November 26, 2016
posted by crocomancer at 11:27 AM on November 26, 2016
Jeremy Corbyn MP: "We now face the task of creating a New Britain from the fourth industrial revolution – powered by the internet of things and big data to develop cyber physical systems and smart factories."
posted by kliuless at 9:22 PM on November 26, 2016
posted by kliuless at 9:22 PM on November 26, 2016
The UK's Investigatory Powers Act allows the State to tell lies in court
posted by jeffburdges at 12:39 PM on December 8, 2016
posted by jeffburdges at 12:39 PM on December 8, 2016
So, the European Court of Justice struck this down, in a case - you can't make this stuff up - originally brought by Dave Davis, the Secretary for Brexit.
posted by vacapinta at 2:19 AM on December 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 2:19 AM on December 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
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posted by lalochezia at 5:06 AM on November 23, 2016 [9 favorites]