Why tell your lover you aren’t into them when you can just fadeaway?
December 21, 2016 6:38 AM   Subscribe

 
I can understand that in some cases fading/ghosting may sometimes be an appropriate tactic to get away from someone genuinely problematic, but as someone who's gone through it**, man, getting ghosted sucks.

** (This was ~2004. I was away on military duty [it was only 2 weeks ffs], and she got "lonely" and went back to her ex, but then didn't want to face me afterward because it would be too awkward for her. I only found out weeks later from her sister.)
posted by mystyk at 6:55 AM on December 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


isn’t new...the people we dated were part of our social circles, introduced to us by family or friends

For me this is the nugget. To use a game theory analogy, it's about iterative vs one-time interactions. Whether it's romantic relationships or business relationships, once the volume of one-time interactions passes a threshold, this approach becomes the dominant strategy.

Costs are "externalized". How will people react? It's a tension between trying to create a large dynamic market but also creating norms that are healthy for those participating. We're not there yet, but we're moving in the right direction.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:07 AM on December 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is why I gave up on online dating-- it has become the dominant strategy, instead of communication. TL;DR: Tinder, etc. I'm too old for this stuff. 'Commodification of the self, etc.'

In a vague sense, I feel sad and sort of regretful for folks who are in the next cohort down, say [18-24] and this all they know. It was, like, at one time, really, different to 'date' and 'meet people.'

One could, imagine, in a David Foster Wallacian-sort-of-way that there will be an inevitable backlash against this strategy, and a backlash against that, and in five years we'll be back to Victorian-era calling cards. Whether that is a net win for anyone, I leave for interested readers to ponder, and monetize.
posted by mrdaneri at 7:12 AM on December 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think unless you're being abused, ghosting is a pretty terrible thing to do. The one time it was done to me is still painful and it's been decades. I'm over that person now. If he showed up in my life I'd tell him to fuck off. I didn't do anything to deserve it being ghosted.
I have Mr. Roquette now and Mr. Roquette is a very good guy. If anything caused us to part ways, I'm sure we could both be grown-ups about it.
In a normal relationship it's better to just let the other person know it's over. Just seems the more adult thing to do.
Now fleeing an abuser, that's a different matter. Ghost away in such circumstances!
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:16 AM on December 21, 2016 [18 favorites]


But being an adult is hard! It's so much easier to passive-aggressively end things!
posted by graventy at 7:22 AM on December 21, 2016 [24 favorites]


I think unless you're being abused, ghosting is a pretty terrible thing to do.

I feel the same. I can sort of understand if someone has had a history of clingy-stalky exes and wants to cut things off cleanly, but it would be a shitload easier on the dumpee if they could manage a simple "I'm sorry, but I just think that things aren't working between us" or the like.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:24 AM on December 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is basically how the job interview process works now. After an interview, everyone on the other end dies (unless you get the job).

So it's not like the younger folk didn't have this behavior modeled for them.
posted by zennie at 7:28 AM on December 21, 2016 [101 favorites]


zennie: That is a good point, that I will be more mindful of in the future. It's a good policy, just from a raw 'human kindness' perspective during any job cycle, whatever role you may be in.
posted by mrdaneri at 7:32 AM on December 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


obligatory rant about how this hasn't changed one iota in 25 years...only the names for things have changed yahoo groups much?
posted by Melismata at 7:33 AM on December 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


This isn't really any new phenomenon. The behaviors may now have cute names, but when I was in the musical chairs game in the 1990s, fadeaways and ghosting were commonplace and expected behavior among urban gay men. Expecting it didn't make it hurt any less when it happened, though.
posted by blucevalo at 7:34 AM on December 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I never thought about the connection between the job interview process and ghosting. That's a very informative insight.

Back when I was dating, I was ghosted a couple of times (though only after one or two dates, not after actually being in a relationship - but it still sucked). It always seemed so counter-productive: the ghoster has to screen calls to ensure that contact with the ghostee is cut off.

I suppose that ghosting is a response to the unfortunate truth that many people can't handle rejection at all and become spiteful, angry, or worse.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 7:35 AM on December 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


This is all my own analysis based a whole shit ton of observation and private Facebook groups and the rest, so take it with however many grains of salt you think it needs, but:

Ghosting and fading and simmering and the rest all sound a whole lot like techniques young women use to manage the emotions of young men to try to keep them from blowing up in various terrifying ways when they get rejected, and then, kind of like how young women's use of language eventually percolates into the mainstream (after being mocked endlessly, first), these behaviors enter the mainstream, too. Only without the justified fear that validates their use.

I don't want to be that person that's like "man, men sure did ruin another thing for everybody," but like...this thing, they totally ruined.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:38 AM on December 21, 2016 [63 favorites]


I've "ghosted" on folks I was dating twice. Once after a disastrous OKC date that started out promisingly with a pirate ship and ended with a boob grab/honk (I didn't text him back), and once after I broke up with my college boyfriend and he called me multiple times a day to leave messages about how I was ruining his life and would wake me up by standing outside my dorm room and crying. I told him I wasn't going to change my mind, I told him to stop calling me, I told him to stop e-mailing me, I told him to stop lurking around my dorm, and when none of that worked I cut off all contact. I'm sorry his feelings were hurt, I guess. I wish he'd acknowledged my boundaries.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:46 AM on December 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


Ghosting is probably a necessary online dating strategy, particularly for straight women. They are confronted by countless numbers of bozos, and sometimes (or fairly often), the only sensible approach is non-engagement, whether at the start, or partway through. Otherwise, to engage in a breakup conversation is only to invite questioning, argument, and abuse. Ghosting can simply be a sensible policy of 'Do Not Feed The Troll'.

However, once a relationship has progressed from being online and into the real world, online rules of interaction may no longer apply. To ghost someone after a real life encounter can still be necessary as conflict avoidance, but to ghost someone simply to avoid emotional unpleasantness is pretty shitty. It all depends on whether two people have reached that threshold of significance.

But in and of itself -- ghosting is a fairly necessary tool. Online, definitely. Real world, perhaps. I'm not sure it really deserves its bad reputation -- and I say this having been a ghostee often enough.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:48 AM on December 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


bluevacelo To provide a bit of clarity, I was referring to this as 'productionized' behavior, in that at least in my limited heterosexual experience it is so commonplace as to become standard. One doesn't expect even a 'goodbye, sayonara, or see you later' anymore. Things just...'stop.'

One might, on occasion, if there was any level of intimacy, get a brief 'adios' text, or something. But the overall frequency of this [again, merely from my own perspective] has gone from say, a 10% occurrence to a 99% occurrence. almost perfectly concurrent with the rise of Tinder. (e.g. Tinder happened, the 'replacement cost' for new relationships, for most people became very, very low )
posted by mrdaneri at 7:49 AM on December 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ghosting in a (semi-)serious relationship? Pretty inconsiderate and possibly very hurtful.

Ghosting after a couple of dates? Been on both sides of that and eh, whatevs--life happens. Others may feel differently, though.

schadenfrau: Ghosting and fading and simmering and the rest all sound a whole lot like techniques young women use to manage the emotions of young men to try to keep them from blowing up in various terrifying ways when they get rejected

Yes. It can be very difficult to predict how someone will take rejection--anywhere from respectfully to endless "Whyyyyy???" communications to stalking and violence. Safety has to come first.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 7:51 AM on December 21, 2016 [14 favorites]


Ghosting after a couple of dates? Been on both sides of that and eh, whatevs--life happens.

posted by Excommunicated Cardinal


Eponysterical!
posted by Gelatin at 7:52 AM on December 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


To ghost someone after a real life encounter can still be necessary as conflict avoidance, but to ghost someone simply to avoid emotional unpleasantness is pretty shitty.

There's a lot of truth to this, I think--ghosting as an online interpersonal strategy adopted to the real-world. Ghosting doesn't annoy or bother me on Grindr/Scruff/OKCupid, but it definitely bothers me when we've gone out a couple times and everything seems fine, and then bam, the guy never answers another one of your texts. It's a uniquely shitty feeling. I actually ran into a guy that ghosted me after a couple of pleasant encounters where everything was fine, and he completely ignored me in person, too! I think it's almost pathological.
posted by Automocar at 7:53 AM on December 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


Ghosting and fading and simmering and the rest all sound a whole lot like techniques young women use to manage the emotions of young men to try to keep them from blowing up in various terrifying ways when they get rejected.

I think its partially about managing the emotions of men, but also about avoiding the blowback that comes from rejection. I used to be forthright and reject men that I had gone on one to three dates with, and I discovered that the conversations often devolved into dramatic blowups. I had one man write an epic passive aggressive Facebook post about me and many others call me names, just for rejecting them. Eventually, I decided that the emotional cost was too high and I began ghosting instead of rejecting anyone that I had only been on 1-3 dates with. My dating life has improved a lot as a result. The "worst" blowback that I've received is someone texted his displeasure through two funny memes. I wonder if I was getting so much blowback because I was butting against the cultural narrative; maybe people expect others to ghost, if its only been 1-3 dates?

(Btw, I do not ghost with romantic partners, after they've passed the 1-3 date threshold, and I'm very forthright if I feel there are problems or I think the relationship may end.)
posted by emilynoa at 7:55 AM on December 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I always preferred to Make an New Plan, Stan.
posted by MOWOG at 7:56 AM on December 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


I've "ghosted" on folks I was dating twice. Once after a disastrous OKC date that started out promisingly with a pirate ship and ended with a boob grab/honk (I didn't text him back), and once after I broke up with my college boyfriend and he called me multiple times a day to leave messages about how I was ruining his life and would wake me up by standing outside my dorm room and crying. I told him I wasn't going to change my mind, I told him to stop calling me, I told him to stop e-mailing me, I told him to stop lurking around my dorm, and when none of that worked I cut off all contact. I'm sorry his feelings were hurt, I guess. I wish he'd acknowledged my boundaries.

The first instance is legitimate ghosting. No contact at all without explanation is my understanding of ghosting.

Your second instance, I would not call ghosting. You actually broke up with him and didn't just disappear with no explanation. Cutting off all contact with someone who will not leave you alone after a break-up is not ghosting at all and was totally the right and necessary thing to do.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:04 AM on December 21, 2016 [26 favorites]


ChuraChura: when none of that worked I cut off all contact

It's called "ghosting" or "fading" or whatever because there's no obvious explanation; the communication just stops like it would if you dropped dead. If you made the reason clear, it's not ghosting, it's just having boundaries.
posted by zennie at 8:05 AM on December 21, 2016 [23 favorites]


I would never have thought of this as possibly originating with women trying to avoid manfeels drama. I assumed it was a thing that mostly guys did. Thanks for enlightening me!
posted by radicalawyer at 8:12 AM on December 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


That is an important, and healthy discrimination. 'I don't think we should see each other, and I don't feel like explaining myself,' is A+ fine boundary setting, IMHO.

Suddenly 'being dead' is sort of scary and anxiety provoking, I think, for most people over the age of 4, with the idea of 'other people exist outside of my consciousness.' I certainly would not do it to anyone I had spent > 4 hours getting to know.
posted by mrdaneri at 8:15 AM on December 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


I've been this type of immature person to "ghost" on people. It's because I'm extremely conflict avoidant and going to counseling has helped me not be such as asshole these days.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:21 AM on December 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


I would never have thought of this as possibly originating with women trying to avoid manfeels drama.

Yeah, look at the niceguys sub on reddit at some point, and you'll see that a number of posts revolve around men directing abuse and hostility towards women for rejecting them forthright. Of course, when women ignore them, the men still direct abuse and hostility towards them. Sometimes women just can't win.

And let's not forget that there have been real-life cases where women have been murdered for rejecting men's advances. Of course, online interactions don't pose the same threat, but I can't blame anyone for ghosting if it's to circumvent verbal threats and abuse.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 8:26 AM on December 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


I was ghosted back in university, on my Birthday. Of course this is in the days prior to cell phones, so instead of enjoying my BDay party I was trying to figure out what had happened to my girlfriend of several months (who I had talked to earlier in the day). I eventually got ahold of her roommate who explained that apparently we'd broken up a few days earlier....

I never really found out why she ended it with me; but did later find that she'd done something similar to other guys before and after.

I do know that several hours of real worry for her safety were entirely unneeded. But hey I often have the worst (or at least most pathetic) breakup story :)
posted by cirhosis at 8:28 AM on December 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I would never have thought of this as possibly originating with women trying to avoid manfeels drama.

The only time I came close to ghosting someone was one of these men. He also did other, awful things, which included monopolizing my energy, affection, and time while refusing to say we were in a relationship. Basically keeping me on-call having no responsibility. I ended up being aggressive-aggressive instead of passive aggressive. "no I don't want to hang out with you anymore, you don't actually like me, you're just a lonely asshole".
posted by FirstMateKate at 8:33 AM on December 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


But being an adult is hard! It's so much easier to passive-aggressively end things!...I've been this type of immature person to "ghost" on people.

As someone who has been both the ghoster and the ghostee I think it's a little unfair to consider ghosting to be passive-aggressive or immature.

To me, it's more immature/selfish to assume that anyone owes you a response. And "fading" is a much worse form of passive-aggression, in that you're allowing the victim to continue to be strung along as opposed to just making the clean, no-contact break.

Being ghosted is just like any other form of rejection. And to be honest, if I had to choose being ghosted over a conversation where a dude conveys to me that he'd rather not ever see me again, I'd say the ghosting is the kinder option.

Ghosting and fading and simmering and the rest all sound a whole lot like techniques young women use to manage the emotions of young men

I also think that trying to twist ghosting into a tool against rape culture is a bit of a stretch, I mean, maybe it is for some women, but it's definitely a strategy that dudes use all the time too.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:44 AM on December 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


I started to come in here to say "I've never been ghosted, seems like a millennial thing", but then I've realized as a het female, I've totally done this all day, mostly for my own feelings of "this dude is going to be a hellbeast about it". I ghosted a guy who lied about his height on OKCupid and then was shitty about a personal appearance factor, I ghosted on dudes I met at multiple events when they showed me their crazy pants.

But I think my understanding was that because men have most of the power in the relationship, ghosting was a thing that was pre-Victorian and was the prerogative of women. The "cut indirect" updated for modern times.

It bothers me deeply that men do it now, because what do they have to lose? What danger are they afraid of?
posted by corb at 8:46 AM on December 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I also think that trying to twist ghosting into a tool against rape culture is a bit of a stretch, I mean, maybe it is for some women, but it's definitely a strategy that dudes use all the time too.

I feel like maybe you didn't read the rest of my comment, or the thread.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:04 AM on December 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'll out myself as someone who was something of a serial "ghoster" when I was single in my 20s (so this is definitely not a new phenomenon). In my case it had to do with being extremely, aggressively conflict avoidant, wanting to avoid any possible awkward or unpleasant conversations/not wanting people to be mad at me. Of course, being human, I came up with rationalizations that made me the good guy ("What, someone should expect a formal break-up after only having dated for a month or two? Ridiculous"). In hindsight, what is funny is how much more difficult I made my life. Instead of having a brief unpleasant moment and then moving on, I would instead have several days or even weeks of not answering the phone, not answering the door, being wary of taking phone calls at work, being cautious every time I walked out the door of my apartment.

With one particular woman, who absolutely refused to be ghosted, this blew up in my face spectacularly. She showed up at my apartment after work one day. Seeing her through the peephole, I locked myself in my bedroom and just hoped she would go away (my car being right out front I'm sure making it obvious I was home). Every half hour or so she would ring the doorbell again and I would stand my ground. Eventually, my roommate came home. Being too embarrassed to admit I had been hiding in my room for the past several hours avoiding my ex, I opted not to mention any of this to him. What I had not counted on was her commitment to a confrontation and willingness to camp out until she had one. The doorbell rang again, my roommate, none the wiser, let her in and sent her to my bedroom. The conversation we had was far more awkward and unpleasant than had I simply given her a brief, "So, I don't think this is working out" weeks earlier.
posted by The Gooch at 9:09 AM on December 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I ghosted someone as a teenager after they did something that hurt me. In retrospect, I think they did the right thing after a string of not-right things but we were both just dumb kids who had no idea how to communicate. The situation was complicated, painful, broke my prior worldview and got too overwhelming for me to know how to deal with. It wasn't entirely their fault, but hindsight is everything. Eventually, we resumed contact and talked about it, and I consider them one of my closest friends, still, but we both have some lingering trauma from it.

I have been ghosted several times, but maybe the worst was when someone I had been in a relationship with for years initiated a new relationship with someone I didn't know and just...never told me about it. No breakup, just increasingly sparse contact trailing off into radio silence. I had to find out via mutual acquaintances and things. That was just awful. Again, eventually we resumed contact and talked about it, and I consider them one of my closest friends, still, but we both etc.

I guess I'm on team "ghosting is actually abusive unless you're escaping abuse and/or have only had minimal contact with someone anyway."
posted by byanyothername at 9:10 AM on December 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


The world has asked so little of so many of us. Some courage in interpersonal relationships is really the least we can do.

This is, of course, not to speak of cases of personal safety or grossly inequal power.
posted by amtho at 9:20 AM on December 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Meh, I once had a dude on match.com send me a rejection note to a wink (which is the most casual, no-consequences form of expressing interest). I mean, really?

In the very early stages of a relationship, it can easily be presumed that no contact means no interest. I don't see any reason to draw out the rejection process, especially as there's probably no benefit to the rejectee in knowing the details.
posted by praemunire at 9:44 AM on December 21, 2016 [13 favorites]


The thing about living in a big city like London is that fading has plausible deniability; you can never tell if someone's deliberately trying to get rid of you or if they've just been insanely busy. And getting in touch with people six months after having last seen them and asking if they're up for a drink never becomes un-awkward. (This applies to platonic social relations as well.)
posted by acb at 9:51 AM on December 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


I agree pretty much with praemunire from the other side of things - it's certainly how I experience these things, as a guy dating in his early 20s.

With any sort of app/online dating, I think of it less as 'ghosting' than 'not hearing back', and that seems... normal? After a certain point, I can certainly see how it's not a great thing to do to a person, but after two or three dates? I don't know - I don't respond so differently to a text saying "Hey, I'm not really into this" vs a longer explanation vs no text at all.
posted by sagc at 9:55 AM on December 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Zennie - he framed it in all of the texts, e-mails, calls, conversations, and messages left after I stopped talking to him as "I don't understand why you've disappeared!" I'm always skeptical now when I hear people talking about how someone just cut off contact out of the blue, because you can talk yourself into any narrative you want.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:03 AM on December 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I feel like maybe you didn't read the rest of my comment, or the thread.

I overedited, my response should have read something like:

I also think that trying to twist ghosting into a tool against rape culture is a bit of a stretch, I mean, maybe it is for some women, but it's definitely a strategy that dudes have always used too.

I haven't seen evidence to support the premise that there is something that used to be uniquely female about this behavior, nor that its use by men has made it any worse.

It's just one way of navigating the "i don't want to see this person again" situation. It's often not the best way, but sometimes it is. The way it's done in the hiring process is unprofessional and lazy (just send an email... eeesh). And someone you're in a longterm relationship with might have a valid reason to fear for your safety if you just disappear on them. But when you're at the couple-or-three dates stage, or maybe you just need to cut off a toxic longtime friend, I continue to rank it as one of the kinder options.

I also tend to think that the kinds of people who get driven crazy by someone having the audacity to ghost them are the same types of people who wouldn't take an explicit rejection well, and it makes sense to avoid being around when those particular dragons get awakened.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:05 AM on December 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I also tend to think that the kinds of people who get driven crazy by someone having the audacity to ghost them are the same types of people who wouldn't take an explicit rejection well, and it makes sense to avoid being around when those particular dragons get awakened.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this at all. As someone who used to struggle with social anxiety and grew up in a home with an absent parent who wouldn't show up to things all the time, disappear, etc. ghosting makes me feel absolutely horrible. After two or three pleasant dates I don't think it's too much to ask to just not completely ignore someone. I'm an adult, I can handle a polite and respectful rejection (and have many times in the past.)

I really don't think it's too much to ask for people to be kind to each other. Life is hard enough already.
posted by Automocar at 10:26 AM on December 21, 2016 [14 favorites]


Many adults can't handle a polite and respectful rejection, and this applies to both genders. The problem is that its hard to tell how someone will handle rejection until it happens. Ghosting someone is a very effective way to avoid this hassle. I'm not saying it's nice, but I understand the choice.
posted by Cranialtorque at 10:33 AM on December 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Ghosting someone is a very effective way to avoid this hassle. I'm not saying it's nice, but I understand the choice.

Oh, I understand it too, but I still think it's immature and mean.
posted by Automocar at 10:46 AM on December 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


As will all things, it depends on context.

Ghosting after a serious relationship in which there was no stalking, threats, or otherwise, yeah, that's shitty.

Ghosting on someone who's started to become abusive? Totally understandable, safe, and even recommended by a lot of domestic abuse specialists. It's even got a legal name: "No Contact Order." Now, what we all have to be very careful of, is that often (not always) the most outspoken against "ghosting" are dudes who know full well that they're being asses and really really reeeaaaallly want to fuck with the woman who has bean mean! and nasty! and GHOSTED THEM! when actually she's more in a headspace of "jesus christ leave me alone".

Ghosting on someone you've been on one or two dates with? That's, yeah, sorry, it's not ideal, no, but it is also entirely understandable for anyone with an empathetic bone in their body who has been through a stalker or even just been through someone who really wants to go out again when you... don't. No hard feelings.

Here's another example from a straight woman (me). The last guy I dated was, unbeknownst to me at first, a Reddit PUA. He had a profile on OKC as "divorced", presented himself as such with a believable story, there were no holes (because he was so practiced at it – again, unbeknownst to me at the time). Well, several months later, we have dinner at a nice place and he basically behaves like an ass. I'm wondering where this came from because he'd never been that way before. Finally we go back to my place, his phone beeps, and he says, "sorry this is my girlfriend I have to answer. Yeah, I have a serious girlfriend, we've known each other for a couple years now. I do like sleeping with you though. Anyway I gotta call her, so I'm gonna step out and when I come back we'll talk about how to organize our dates okay."

When he came back, I ghosted him, alright? His bags were packed, set in front of my door, and I told him "get out now and never contact me again."

He thought it was TERRIFICALLY UNFAIR and OMIGOD HOW RUDE and holy COW WE HAD RELAAAATIONSHIIIP and oh by the way he was going to burn my house down.

Mmkay? Don't go too hard on the "omigod so rude" because, as in all things, context matters.
posted by fraula at 11:03 AM on December 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


When he came back, I ghosted him, alright? His bags were packed, set in front of my door, and I told him "get out now and never contact me again."

But... that's not ghosting.
posted by Automocar at 11:20 AM on December 21, 2016 [28 favorites]


Many adults can't handle a polite and respectful rejection, and this applies to both genders.

I'm a gay man and I typically make an effort to be honest with the other person when I don't want to pursue something serious and make overtures toward friendship, if the person isn't terrible.

And time and time again, down the road, particularly when they've have another failed date, I've been asked for a point by point breakout on why they are unlovable and what I, specifically, disliked about them. It's such a minefield. Knowing that can happen, I do not begrudge anyone for ghosting rather than risk being asked to do the emotional labor of propping up someone's self esteem.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 11:30 AM on December 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


Cutting off all contact with someone who will not leave you alone after a break-up is not ghosting at all and was totally the right and necessary thing to do.

men will definitely call this "ghosting" and act like none of it had anything to do with them or the choices they made to be irrational and aggressive and creepy and terrifying.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:26 PM on December 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


When he came back, I ghosted him, alright? His bags were packed, set in front of my door, and I told him "get out now and never contact me again."
But... that's not ghosting.
posted by Automocar at 2:20 PM on December 21 [12 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]


Seconding this. Ghosting is not telling someone you're going full-on no contact abruptly. Ghosting is chatting with someone on tinder for a few days, setting something up this weekend, going on a date that seems cool, talking to them again a few days later, more conversation over devices, setting up a 2nd date, having a seemingly good date, end the night well and happy, continue talking throughout the week, getting to know eachother, and in the middle of your regular talks, asking them if they want to join you in this Cool Local Event, and then getting no response. You figure they're busy. Let it go for a couple of days, then send a text to check in and see if they're okay-you'd been talking steadily but there's been an abrupt halt. You figure they didn't want to go to Cool Local Event, but didn't want to let you down. So you go alone and the next day you casually try and start up a conversation about that night's episode of TV Show that you both watch, but they never respond. You're left confused and unsure where to take the next step, waiting for the other shoe to drop.
posted by FirstMateKate at 1:19 PM on December 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


If you're going to "ghost" me, doesn't it mean that you didn't really consider me as a person the entire time?
posted by Sphinx at 1:27 PM on December 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I also tend to think that the kinds of people who get driven crazy by someone having the audacity to ghost them are the same types of people who wouldn't take an explicit rejection well, and it makes sense to avoid being around when those particular dragons get awakened.

Wow, talk about unfair. I guess I'm crazy for wishing that a man whose penis was inside my body only 36 hours earlier had responded to me when I asked for another date instead of just vanishing. Oh, this modern life, when simply wanting a "sorry, not interested" response means you are crazy and full of evil that should be avoided.
posted by palomar at 1:41 PM on December 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


I think we need different degrees of severity for this. I've "ghosted" and been a ghostee (or we've mutually ghosted? is that a thing?) but only for when we're in the 1-3 dates range, where if you send a text and get a reply, that implies there's still some active interest; otherwise you assume nothing about this person and whether they should be doing anything for your benefit. And it's not like I'm ignoring text after text actively instead of breaking it off. It's more like a situation where we're texting, and then, whether mutually or not, we're just... not? I'm pretty busy or distracted with things and can barely answer my personal emails and texts as it is on a given day, I don't have time to respond to most online dating messages, even very promising ones. If my focus drifts away from a person I've gone on a date or two with, most likely life has gotten in the way and even I haven't had the concrete thought "I don't want to date this person," my focus has just drifted. They might be pleasant and maybe a few more dates would be nice. But I'm not really actively starting convos with them and they're not really making an effort to continue texting beyond 1 or 2 texts that I don't reply to, so maybe it's just mutually not really a thing. This is how these things happen pretty organically. Most people in the online dating world have adopted this as their reality. It starts with people just getting more messages or mutual matches than they have time or energy to respond to, so by necessity they have to ignore some, and it continues into the IRL world where you're meeting people who are still kinda just strangers from the internet you don't know much about or owe anything to. It's less about a clean break and more just about whether you find a person who keeps your interest enough that you keep talking to them and doing fun things with them. I hardly ever think of it as a situation where I need to have (or even feel entitled enough to have) "The Talk" (serious tone) because it's never serious, and if it was serious to them and they demonstrate that with repeated texts or calls, then I absolutely would call it off explicitly.
posted by naju at 1:49 PM on December 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


If you're going to "ghost" me, doesn't it mean that you didn't really consider me as a person the entire time?

Can you explain where you're getting this from? If it's from the use of the word "ghost" that doesn't make much sense to me because 1.) the "ghost" is the person doing the "ghosting" (i.e. they turn into a ghost and vanish), and 2.) to become a ghost, someone has to be a living person in the first place (unless it's a ghost dog or something).

If it's from not being broken up with in the way that you would prefer, that's at least coherent, but still kind of a stretch -- Do you feel unpersoned by everyone who is rude to you?

Me: I also tend to think that the kinds of people who get driven crazy by someone having the audacity to ghost them are the same types of people who wouldn't take an explicit rejection well

>Wow, talk about unfair. I guess I'm crazy for wishing that a man whose penis was inside my body only 36 hours earlier had responded to me when I asked for another date instead of just vanishing. Oh, this modern life, when simply wanting a "sorry, not interested" response means you are crazy and full of evil that should be avoided.

There's a difference between "wanting" something, and being "driven crazy" by not getting it. And yeah, you may not be The Gooch's ex or a PUA crybaby, but maybe the guy in question wasn't sure.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:38 PM on December 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


men will definitely call this "ghosting" and act like none of it had anything to do with them or the choices they made to be irrational and aggressive and creepy and terrifying

Which is part of why it's such an absolute mindfuck when someone does it to someone who has behaved normally

Do you feel unpersoned by everyone who is rude to you?

Yeah no, it's that treating someone who you've slept with, who you've been making plans for things in the near future with, and trading vulnerabilities with, and doing all the things you do when you begin to open up to someone and care about them--that treating this someone like they are actual toxic human garbage who might hurt you if you interact with them just on more time means you think that they are either a) actual toxic human garbage, or b) unworthy of basic human respect and consideration.

It's not "rude" when you've gotten close to someone. It's hurtful. It's not confusing or a misunderstanding. "Ghosting" doesn't really apply until there's been some form, however slight, of genuine and reasonable attachment. At which point, it's a supremely shitty thing to do to a person--unless they are actual toxic human garbage.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:50 PM on December 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Also it seems pretty clear that the ghost is the person who disappeared -- leaving the ghostee to wonder whether they were ever real at all.

Perhaps it's best understood as a specific form of gas lighting.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:54 PM on December 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


There's a difference between "wanting" something, and being "driven crazy" by not getting it. And yeah, you may not be The Gooch's ex or a PUA crybaby, but maybe the guy in question wasn't sure.

Yeah, so this thing where we just decide that other people aren't worth any kind of consideration at all, and that it's okay to just walk away from someone without the basic courtesy of saying you don't wish to continue knowing them anymore? It's shitty. That's why you're getting the pushback on the notion that just cutting people off right and left is totally fine and anyone who has a problem with being treated that way must be either mentally unwell or just a crappy person who deserves unkindness.
posted by palomar at 3:07 PM on December 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I think there's a thing here where if you've had sex with someone, and you are a man, you can't ghost them. You are obligated to at least explain why despite liking them enough to have sex with them, you didn't like them enough to explain why you never gave them the time of day after that.
posted by corb at 3:11 PM on December 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


toxic longtime friend

I am team Communication Even If It's Painful but this is one of the few times I might Fade someone as it can sometimes be kinder to just quietly slip away. If they've been marinading in negativity and depression (or other unchecked mental illness), spending hours arguing about their boundary issues and why their behavior is toxic and shitty does neither of us much good, especially if they are prone to aggression or vindictiveness.

If I get to that point in a friendship, I'm not expecting to be able to help them - we will have already had several long chats about it. If a behavior can't or won't be changed, what good is it to rub their face in their flaws? Once you tell somebody it's over, even a friend, you have to be prepared to answer "why?" Sometimes the emotional labor involved there is pretty high for both parties, and it's easy to be inadvertently hurtful when defending your inability to handle somebody else's emotional toxic waste.
posted by Feyala at 3:15 PM on December 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


My rule is that it's fine to just go no contact in the very early, platonic stages -- say, up to three dates. If you've gone beyond that, or if you've been intimate with the person, you owe them a phone call to tell them you don't think it's working. I have had a number of guys pull a disappearing act when we were waaaaay beyond that, like one guy whom I'd been seeing for three months and had known for two years before that and who cut me off completely, or another guy whom I was involved on and off with for 12 years who'd just occasionally disappear for awhile. It's shit, it really is. I don't blame any of the guys who broke things off with me like adults at all -- no one owes it to me to go out with me, and though I may be disappointed I will get over it quite quickly after a clean break. I don't blame any of the guys who never called me back after we'd had one date and I left them a single message, because I understood that they just weren't interested. I will never forgive any of the guys who simply disappeared after we'd been involved for months or years because it was more convenient and comfortable for them to simply discard me without a word.

I have had guys freak out on me for not breaking up with them after a single, casual date, or in one instance, after a single phone call (we'd connected via a telephone dating system). And in those cases, I congratulated myself on dodging a bullet.
posted by orange swan at 3:19 PM on December 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


I will add that I consider relationships (defined as: emotional/physical intimacy with shared plans for the future, not just casual dating) to have a higher degree of investment, even when it comes to handling emotional toxic waste, and that barring a stalker type scenario I can't see myself ever ghosting somebody. Closure can be very important.
posted by Feyala at 3:20 PM on December 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I've ghosted, I've been ghosted; I will ghost and be ghosted again. I think the whole POINT of it is that we, the involved, get to decide whether it's right or wrong in each situation, and conduct ourselves accordingly.

I really don't think there's one great rule (especially a gender-based one) that everybody can agree with - it's situational.
posted by destructive cactus at 3:23 PM on December 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I would suggest that if ghosting is the only way a person ends relationships, the problem does not originate with the people being ghosted.
posted by palomar at 3:26 PM on December 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Aziz Ansari on ghosting.

A video from /r/niceguys, which is actually a forum where people point and laugh at socially inept men (and sometimes women) who are unsuccessful in romance and use one of three imposible-to-prove beliefs to soothe themselves. You won't see any of these ideas in this two minute video.
posted by Mr. Fig at 4:14 PM on December 21, 2016


Appropriate soundtrack for this thread: Somebody that I used to Know.
posted by storybored at 5:56 PM on December 21, 2016


Am I the only one who fades and ghosts because if I tell the guy it's ending, he somehow convinces me it shouldn't? I'm fine with the honest convo but apparently I am - um, used to be - a sucker for the smooth talker or logical objection.
posted by Lil Bit of Pepper at 6:15 PM on December 21, 2016


I am sure it is more common with online dating common and texting being the major form of communication, but I remember both ghosting and being ghosted back in the day. It's no fun, but it makes sense sometimes and the reality is that no one owes you an explanation or anything else, so if they want to cut off communication so be it.

You are obligated to at least explain why despite liking them enough to have sex with them, you didn't like them enough to explain why you never gave them the time of day after that.

The Venn diagram of "people I want to have sex with" and "people I want to be in a relationship" overlap, but only partially, for most people.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:04 PM on December 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Maybe this is me Being A Millennial(TM), or just being a cold person in general, but why would anyone be so invested within the first 1-3 dates to care about being ghosted if they weren't creepily overinvested? In my general milieu, even if you sleep with somebody, if they protest a lot at being ghosted early in the relationship you did a good thing by ghosting them and their reaction only proves it. I mean, I grasp that being emotionally involved is an emotional thing, but why be emotionally involved that early on to begin with?

I guess it goes without saying that I've done a lot of ghosting and I've been ghosted on a lot too, friendship-wise as well as romance-wise. It seems very normal to me. A lot more normal than a formal "I'm breaking up with you" conversation, which I don't see the point of in general other than a declaration of intent to cause drama and prolong (or create!) bad feelings. If an ending isn't mutual, well, it doesn't have to be to begin with. There's no reason to open negotiations on something that isn't negotiable, and there's no reason to stretch a friendship or a romance beyond its tolerance when there's nothing more doing anyhow.

Ghosting to me is part of a larger sense that if it's not there, then it's not there, and there's no reason to keep going and overwriting already sunk costs with further costs that won't make any difference anyway. Some things are flashes in the pan, some things are shallow and extremely temporary, some things are just a function of interaction in a particular space and time that doesn't and shouldn't apply anywhere else. Things that are temporary and shallow aren't any less enjoyable for it, but the enjoying doesn't make it any deeper or significant and it doesn't mean it ought to be, either. Sunk emotional investment is sunk emotional investment, and it's not going to come back and it can't be taken back either, because it's gone. It can't. It's a loss to be written off. Being like "oh hey I really like you!" on a date with someone who is like "eh okay I guess" isn't a parcel you get to retrieve from the post office or balance out on a ledger. It happened, it's done, it was fun to be like "oh hey I really like you!", that's that.

tl;dr the philosophy is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by E. Whitehall at 7:41 PM on December 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


The thing about that philosophy is that it requires you to basically regard the people around you as utterly disposable. I honestly don't think it's a huge, creepy thing to think that maybe once you've fucked someone, it's really uncool to just never ever talk to them again. Like, honestly, what is so goddamned hard about just saying, "Hey, this isn't working out for me"?
posted by palomar at 8:20 PM on December 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


I don't know. Maybe super creepy freaks like me just don't deserve basic human kindness at all, let alone love. That's the message I'm getting from this, and from the world in general -- wanting to be treated with a modicum of respect apparently makes me a fucking monster.
posted by palomar at 8:22 PM on December 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


palomar: Like, honestly, what is so goddamned hard about just saying, "Hey, this isn't working out for me"?

Hey, I'm sorry I've hurt you. This bit here I think is part of the clash. To me, ghosting is saying that. It's not working out, so you stop. What I'm getting from you is that you expected stopping to be an active measure, not a passive one. I'm not sure if it's cultural or generational, but for me active stopping seems a very formal process that you do for legal things, or where money or shared living space is involved; for things that are a big deal. For some people sex is one of those things that are a big deal.

I mean, I would describe my view as treating relationships as the transient things they are and valuing them in their contexts, not as though people are disposable. You are not disposable, and neither are you monstrous for holding sex as one of your big deals. I can certainly see how it sounds like I am saying so, and and I am sorry about that; generalising from people I'm close to never does end well!

The fact that we disagree on ghosting doesn't mean that you don't deserve kindness or that your feelings aren't valid. They are and you do.
posted by E. Whitehall at 11:02 PM on December 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


That was a well made but sad video.

I'm so glad I dumped the bloody mobile phone thing along with the annoying texting bs. You have something to say to me, you call me at home or knock on my door. I will accept an email, but you get points if you send a letter with a stamp on it.
posted by james33 at 5:19 AM on December 22, 2016


I mean, I grasp that being emotionally involved is an emotional thing, but why be emotionally involved that early on to begin with?

Counterpoint: Why not? Like, literally. You do it because it keeps you in the clear so that way you can remove people from your life without much effort. To each their own. But your point that 'I can ghost because there's not emotion in the beginning" has very linear logic. And I'd bet that it's actually more of a circular effect-cause-effect.

I'm a millennial, too, and I agree with Palomar. Why not be emotionally attached early on? So you can ghost later if you want? No thanks. Because you can't get your emotional effort back? Well, duh, welcome to life. I only date people (let alone sleep with them) if I think they'll reciprocate and they're worth it. And, yeah, not many people are. So I don't date casually.


I think this just might be a cultural thing. Akin to ask/guess culture, rather that split up ethnically or generationally or across gender lines. There are people who prefer emotional investment in their relationships, and therefore ghosting is harmful. Then there are people who consider initial dating impersonal, and so treating it with the gravity of a breakup conversation would be unnecessary. (none of this applies to people who do it because of risk of harm or abuse, etc)

What's for sure is that any conclusions drawn about either side of this are...ridiculous, to be honest. No one here has been "driven crazy", or whatever. Yeah, things are situational, but also people are just different.
posted by FirstMateKate at 6:02 AM on December 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


Count me in the camp that sees the ubiquity of this tactic as being primarily a way for women to avoid the unending torrent of horrific abuse that often erupts suddenly and without warning from men who have been rejected. That's how I've always seen it, so I've never taken it personally when it's happened to me.

I'm not the type to do that and I don't think I give off that vibe, but my understanding is that it's almost impossible to predict when a guy will take his rejection like an adult and when he will suddenly explode into a terrifying volcano of threats and invective. I certainly have zero time in my life for that kind of shit, and I can't see why anybody else should make time for it either.

If you're in a new relationship and the person you've been dating stops responding to you, just assume they've ghosted and move on. If you think someone might have ghosted on you, they almost certainly have; if they haven't and they're still interested in you, they'll be sure to let you know as soon as they replace their phone/get out of the hospital/whatever.

In the context of dating, if people are interested in you my experience has been that they'll make it plenty obvious. If it's not obvious, they're not interested.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:07 AM on December 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


I guess when it comes to communication, I'm in the camp of "its your responsibility to communicate, not mine to try and figure out your feelings for you"
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:58 AM on December 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think this just might be a cultural thing. Akin to ask/guess culture, rather that split up ethnically or generationally or across gender lines.

What's interesting to me is that with ask/guess culture is that people on both sides who aren't familiar with the dichotomy usually feel very strongly that their way is the right way. For people who are familiar with it, when the issue in question is framed in those terms it becomes easy for reasonable people on both sides to kind of figure out where the other side is coming from.

Here, on the other hand, it seems like there are "ghosting is not always the best thing in the world but there are times when it's appropriate and it's not a big deal regardless" people and "ghosting is abusive unless you have reason to believe that the ghostee will harm you" people.

The disproportionality is striking, and I'm not sure it's as clean as "emotional attachers vs. non-attachers."
posted by sparklemotion at 11:42 AM on December 22, 2016


I think part of my distaste for ghosting is it seems to be the new way men who fake relationships with women to sleep with them and then dump them afterwards are getting away with murder while everyone tells the women they have no right to call the men out on their bullshit.
posted by corb at 11:51 AM on December 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I think what's happening is that people come down on all sorts of sides on this because whether it's appropriate or inappropriate varies depending on how many dates, whether you've been sleeping with each other and what the spoken or unspoken understanding was about that, how casual / hookup-y / non-relationshipy it is for both parties, and many other factors really, including non-verbal vague ones like vibe and sense of connection. It's almost like every situation is different and people have different values / expectations for the pretty complex world of relationships / dating / sex.

There's a scene we've all seen in movies (not that movies have any relationship to reality) where the two leads hook up, and the next morning is awkward and they're like "well... I'll call you!" and the other person is like "Yeah!" and both they and the audience know that won't happen and they won't intend to see each other again. Sometimes that shared, thin fiction between two people saves both parties from what's really just a bummer and self-esteem-reducer of a conversation like "Hey, that was fun, but I don't think we should see each other again. Thanks for the coffee and best of luck, take care!" Like maybe you didn't need to say that. It's possible you've both got enough social/emotional intelligence to understand what's really going on and you're able to do it while both saving face. That's a skill people appreciate. Not everyone agrees with this though, which is why there are people here who feel like they would rather have that frank conversation so they know for sure. People are different and want/need different things, especially when it comes to intimacy.
posted by naju at 1:00 PM on December 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


I really want to know if all the ghosting-is-fine people somehow indicate they're ending a call, or just hang up like movie people.
posted by zennie at 6:46 PM on December 22, 2016


Here, on the other hand, it seems like there are "ghosting is not always the best thing in the world but there are times when it's appropriate and it's not a big deal regardless" people and "ghosting is abusive unless you have reason to believe that the ghostee will harm you" people.

This seems like a massive false equivalence and really biased phrasing. If I were to characterize the thinking of the two groups (assuming there are only two, which I think is unlikely) in a similarly unflattering way given my own orientation, I might suggest that there are "you can blow off anybody unless you've made an explicit commitment to them" people and "I assume we're starting from a shared premise of basic respect, so I will try to communicate honestly and openly about where I am regarding this relationship unless and until I have concerns about my safety" people.

But I don't think that's terribly helpful. I think it's more useful to talk about how one determines whether one's dating partner has compatible expectations about communication, and what are reasonable dating practices in 2016-going-on-2017, and that sort of thing. "Are expectations around dating and friendships shifting and if so, how do people deal with that?" is interesting and useful. "Who's wrong?" isn't.
posted by Lexica at 7:11 PM on December 22, 2016 [5 favorites]


« Older Meet New York's 11-year-old subway therapist   |   Refugees-The-Right-Thing-to-Do.pptx Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments