"All the German Shepherds are dead, but then again so is everybody else"
February 14, 2017 2:03 PM Subscribe
American Anarchists Join YPG in Syria Fighting Isis
Bonus Chapo Interview
Straight from the PissPig's mouth
Bonus Chapo Interview
Straight from the PissPig's mouth
blessings be upon PPG! i hope and his comrades stay safe out there. they surely have more courage than i
posted by burgerrr at 2:13 PM on February 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by burgerrr at 2:13 PM on February 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
Oh god that interview
Yeah, I didn't think much could shock me in the post-Trump era, but my jaw was agape during that entire interview.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 2:16 PM on February 14, 2017
Yeah, I didn't think much could shock me in the post-Trump era, but my jaw was agape during that entire interview.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 2:16 PM on February 14, 2017
But the YPG is not your typical ethnic or sectarian faction. Its fighters are loyal to an imprisoned guerrilla leader who was once a communist but now espouses the same kind of secular, feminist, anarcho-libertarianism as Noam Chomsky or the activists of Occupy Wall Street.
Funny, I remember Occupy as being committed to nonviolence. And opposed to libertarianism.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:20 PM on February 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
Funny, I remember Occupy as being committed to nonviolence. And opposed to libertarianism.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:20 PM on February 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
In the interview, he makes it seem like a feminist communist group. I think rolling Stone is getting their non liberal ideologies mixed up
posted by R.F.Simpson at 2:27 PM on February 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by R.F.Simpson at 2:27 PM on February 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
anarcho-libertarianism
yeah PPG got a bit peeved about the "anarchist" bit in the headline so i can't imagine he was stoked about the "anarcho-libertarianism" either
posted by burgerrr at 2:28 PM on February 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
yeah PPG got a bit peeved about the "anarchist" bit in the headline so i can't imagine he was stoked about the "anarcho-libertarianism" either
posted by burgerrr at 2:28 PM on February 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
He attended American University in Washington, D.C., where he majored in Jewish history and immersed himself in socialist theory. "As long as I can remember, I've been interested in leftism," he said. He worked part-time for a startup called Postmates, an Uber-like company of underemployed couriers. "On one of my last deliveries I brought some rich prick two MacBook Pros," Chapman said. "He was barefoot in his underwear, and he literally wrote in zero dollars and zero cents for a tip. How does anyone do that?"
And that's Postmates, ladies and gentlemen, and the smiling face of "disruption" in business.
You know what? Those people in the article are right. I imagine, based on past history of other small anarchist societies, that everyone will be scattered or massacred soon enough, but they're right that most of us - most people like me - don't live by what we believe and readily get enmeshed in the status quo even though we know better.
In re anarchism and communism: IME, there's not much difference between non-state communists and the more organized type of anarchists.
posted by Frowner at 2:30 PM on February 14, 2017 [23 favorites]
And that's Postmates, ladies and gentlemen, and the smiling face of "disruption" in business.
You know what? Those people in the article are right. I imagine, based on past history of other small anarchist societies, that everyone will be scattered or massacred soon enough, but they're right that most of us - most people like me - don't live by what we believe and readily get enmeshed in the status quo even though we know better.
In re anarchism and communism: IME, there's not much difference between non-state communists and the more organized type of anarchists.
posted by Frowner at 2:30 PM on February 14, 2017 [23 favorites]
I think rolling Stone is getting their non liberal ideologies mixed up
Yeah the interview and twitter call out RS for getting the labels and self indentifiers mixed up.
posted by The Whelk at 2:33 PM on February 14, 2017
Yeah the interview and twitter call out RS for getting the labels and self indentifiers mixed up.
posted by The Whelk at 2:33 PM on February 14, 2017
So I had to sit my teenage daughter down and have "the talk".
She looked pretty uncomfortable but I told her it would be short.
Me: "Sweetie, I know you like that antifa shirt a lot, but you can't join the black bloc."
Her: "That's seriously what you wanted to talk to me about?"
Her: "Oh thank god"
Because seriously people, if you don't talk to your kids about leftist resistance they end up like this guy.
posted by GuyZero at 2:34 PM on February 14, 2017 [27 favorites]
She looked pretty uncomfortable but I told her it would be short.
Me: "Sweetie, I know you like that antifa shirt a lot, but you can't join the black bloc."
Her: "That's seriously what you wanted to talk to me about?"
Her: "Oh thank god"
Because seriously people, if you don't talk to your kids about leftist resistance they end up like this guy.
posted by GuyZero at 2:34 PM on February 14, 2017 [27 favorites]
I don't think North American black bloc is engaged in paramilitary armed resistance against authoritarian extremists who like to put people in cages but you know a lot has changed in a few weeks
posted by The Whelk at 2:39 PM on February 14, 2017 [33 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 2:39 PM on February 14, 2017 [33 favorites]
Because seriously people, if you don't talk to your kids about leftist resistance they end up like this guy.
You mean "awesome?"
posted by joechip at 2:40 PM on February 14, 2017 [26 favorites]
You mean "awesome?"
posted by joechip at 2:40 PM on February 14, 2017 [26 favorites]
Even if you can't stand Chapo, that interview will give you something you will probably never hear from another source. Chapo and PPG, for the lack of a better phrase, speak the same language, so it's much more ...honest? Comprehensible? Not sure how to describe it.
Also I cannot figure out if the part where he talks about getting practice being shot in the head while wearing a helmet as training was a joke or not but I don't think it is and it's fucking terrifying and the way he relates it couldn't be funnier.
posted by griphus at 2:41 PM on February 14, 2017 [9 favorites]
Also I cannot figure out if the part where he talks about getting practice being shot in the head while wearing a helmet as training was a joke or not but I don't think it is and it's fucking terrifying and the way he relates it couldn't be funnier.
posted by griphus at 2:41 PM on February 14, 2017 [9 favorites]
Hitching rides around Rojava, I was appalled by the environmental degradation. The most educated people throw their garbage directly out the window, and flattened trash accumulates like leaf litter in the forest. They don't have a proper oil refinery, so caustic black exhaust wafts over the streets in visible strata. The only animals are dreadlocked bovids grazing knee-deep in trash, wretched chickens molting in cages, and stray dogs, which I knew from many stories were not unaccustomed to the taste of human flesh. And yet, making your way through the foot traffic and beeping motorcycles of a bazaar, the sidewalks crowded with crates of fruits and vegetables, cellphone shops, money-changers and tractor mechanics, everything draped in a cat's cradle of electrical wires, there is a peculiar charm, an aura of intrigue that is heightened by the jangly Kurdish ballads on every radio.
Say what you will about the ideals, politics, and tactics of the people interviewed for this story, but the story itself has more than a whiff of a picturesque daytrip in other peoples' misery.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:47 PM on February 14, 2017 [12 favorites]
Say what you will about the ideals, politics, and tactics of the people interviewed for this story, but the story itself has more than a whiff of a picturesque daytrip in other peoples' misery.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:47 PM on February 14, 2017 [12 favorites]
Do people understand that "black bloc" is not a group of people, it's a tactic? There's no fucking club you can join called The Black Bloc. It's just the name for "showing up in groups with covered faces to do direct action".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:09 PM on February 14, 2017 [24 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:09 PM on February 14, 2017 [24 favorites]
what on earth are syria and/or iraq going to look like in, say, 30 years? i think the odds still slightly favor some sort of fairly normal, not-so-democratic one party state, but something far stranger is also a certainly possible.
posted by wibari at 3:18 PM on February 14, 2017
posted by wibari at 3:18 PM on February 14, 2017
Its troops are lightly armed and go into battle without body armor or helmets or even boots, just sneakers and Kalashnikovs, wearing the black flowery headscarves typical of Rojava, which the men took up wearing in solidarity with the women.
I thought this small detail about the scarves was amazing, especially in context of what they're fighting against.
Even though it wasn't a perfect article, thanks for posting it. I only knew YPG and Rojava in passing, but I'll now have to find out more.
posted by honestcoyote at 3:24 PM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
I thought this small detail about the scarves was amazing, especially in context of what they're fighting against.
Even though it wasn't a perfect article, thanks for posting it. I only knew YPG and Rojava in passing, but I'll now have to find out more.
posted by honestcoyote at 3:24 PM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
Here are two other interviews with foreign fighters of the YPG; I found them linked to by Dutch journalist Frederike Geerdink on her Twitter account.
posted by Theiform at 4:23 PM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Theiform at 4:23 PM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
I haven't had time to listen to the Chapo interview yet, but when I saw that on twitter last night I knew it was going to be a crazy listen. This article was fascinating; I don't think I'd have the courage to do anything like this.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:36 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Existential Dread at 4:36 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Funny, I remember Occupy as being committed to nonviolence. And opposed to libertarianism.
One common (and probably more historically supported) usage of the word "libertarian" (for example, the descriptor "libertarian socialist", or the "L" in the WOMBLES, etc.) has very little to do with the ideology described by the word "libertarian" as co-opted by e.g. the US Libertarian party. The former is almost certainly the sense in which the word is appearing in the context of the post.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:18 PM on February 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
One common (and probably more historically supported) usage of the word "libertarian" (for example, the descriptor "libertarian socialist", or the "L" in the WOMBLES, etc.) has very little to do with the ideology described by the word "libertarian" as co-opted by e.g. the US Libertarian party. The former is almost certainly the sense in which the word is appearing in the context of the post.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:18 PM on February 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
Somehow I managed to read past this:
He was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and suffered from heavy depression until the day he realized that there was nothing wrong with his mind; it was the modern world that was sick.
Thanks for posting.
posted by supercres at 5:51 PM on February 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
He was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and suffered from heavy depression until the day he realized that there was nothing wrong with his mind; it was the modern world that was sick.
Thanks for posting.
posted by supercres at 5:51 PM on February 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
I am so behind on contemporary acronyms that when I saw "PPG", I thought "Pittsburgh Paint Group"?
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:00 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:00 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
what on earth are syria and/or iraq going to look like in, say, 30 years? i think the odds still slightly favor some sort of fairly normal, not-so-democratic one party state, but something far stranger is also a certainly possible.
Mad Max?
posted by eviemath at 6:02 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mad Max?
posted by eviemath at 6:02 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
One common (and probably more historically supported) usage of the word "libertarian" (for example, the descriptor "libertarian socialist", or the "L" in the WOMBLES, etc.) has very little to do with the ideology described by the word "libertarian" as co-opted by e.g. the US Libertarian party. The former is almost certainly the sense in which the word is appearing in the context of the post.
Yes, and then "anarcho-libertarian" is redundant. Possibly they got the more-or-less synonymous "anarcho-communism" and "libertarian communism" mixed up and combined the "anarcho-" and "libertarian" parts, dropping the "communism" part?
posted by eviemath at 6:04 PM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yes, and then "anarcho-libertarian" is redundant. Possibly they got the more-or-less synonymous "anarcho-communism" and "libertarian communism" mixed up and combined the "anarcho-" and "libertarian" parts, dropping the "communism" part?
posted by eviemath at 6:04 PM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
I listened to the interview, and he really reminds me of punk friends I've had. What an awesome interview. I felt somewhat jealous of his ability to care about an ideology so much that he'd risk imminent death for it.
I mean, my ideology is basically that people should stop shooting at each other, so it's kind of a catch 22 over here.
posted by Barry David at 6:07 PM on February 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
I mean, my ideology is basically that people should stop shooting at each other, so it's kind of a catch 22 over here.
posted by Barry David at 6:07 PM on February 14, 2017 [7 favorites]
Even if you can't stand Chapo, that interview will give you something you will probably never hear from another source. Chapo and PPG, for the lack of a better phrase, speak the same language, so it's much more ...honest? Comprehensible? Not sure how to describe it.
Yeah I though it was a better fit than the RS "lowlife punk" take (which he made fun of). There's a fair amount about the guy around because he had some local punk notoriety singing for an ironically "right-wing" band when he was a teenager and he wrote for MRR off and on for a while. I get the sense he was more upper-middle-class misfit turned punk - the part about getting addicted to drugs, quitting drugs, and deciding this is what he wanted to do with his life is probably accurate though.
posted by atoxyl at 6:11 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah I though it was a better fit than the RS "lowlife punk" take (which he made fun of). There's a fair amount about the guy around because he had some local punk notoriety singing for an ironically "right-wing" band when he was a teenager and he wrote for MRR off and on for a while. I get the sense he was more upper-middle-class misfit turned punk - the part about getting addicted to drugs, quitting drugs, and deciding this is what he wanted to do with his life is probably accurate though.
posted by atoxyl at 6:11 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I often barely feel like I can navigate the complexities of political conflicts at home, where everyone speaks the same language and I have some basic grasp of the context. I honestly can't imagine traveling to a totally foreign society in the process of imploding and feeling like I had any business trying to kill people.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:14 PM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 6:14 PM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]
"All the German Shepherds are dead..."
No :-(
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:24 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
No :-(
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:24 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
I honestly can't imagine traveling to a totally foreign society in the process of imploding and feeling like I had any business trying to kill people.
I mean the guys he's tryna kill are Daesh so it's not like there's a lot of... nuance... into whether or not they're beneficial to kill? that's a pretty firm yes from most folks.
posted by bracems at 6:29 PM on February 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
I mean the guys he's tryna kill are Daesh so it's not like there's a lot of... nuance... into whether or not they're beneficial to kill? that's a pretty firm yes from most folks.
posted by bracems at 6:29 PM on February 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
I mean the guys he's tryna kill are Daesh so it's not like there's a lot of... nuance... into whether or not they're beneficial to kill? that's a pretty firm yes from most folks.
There is when you consider that ISIS have been conscripting civilians from Raqqa and other places they occupy into their army.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 6:47 PM on February 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
There is when you consider that ISIS have been conscripting civilians from Raqqa and other places they occupy into their army.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 6:47 PM on February 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
There is when you consider that ISIS have been conscripting civilians from Raqqa and other places they occupy into their army.
And their growing use of child soldiers.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:50 PM on February 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
And their growing use of child soldiers.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:50 PM on February 14, 2017 [2 favorites]
But there's no option where everyone just says "okay, we're not going to fight, let's call the whole thing off, fighting is wrong". There's either this fledgling revolutionary society of extremely marginalized people gets slaughtered by ISIS, which has made a pretty good attempt to slaughter them out of hand in the recent past, or it fights ISIS. That's what's on the table.
It's one thing to say "let's not escalate a conflict and bring violence into it even if we could win, because violence itself is wrong"; it's quite another to pretend that there's some option where the people in Raqqa can just opt out, and that therefore fighting alongside them is an escalation.
The extreme pacifist Gandhian position (I'm sure you remember that he suggested that Jews commit suicide rather than fight the Nazis) can be an internally consistent position, and people are welcome to adopt it. But I don't see that it has an a priori higher moral standpoint than "these people are being murdered; I'm going to fight alongside them to try to stop that".
posted by Frowner at 6:57 PM on February 14, 2017 [44 favorites]
It's one thing to say "let's not escalate a conflict and bring violence into it even if we could win, because violence itself is wrong"; it's quite another to pretend that there's some option where the people in Raqqa can just opt out, and that therefore fighting alongside them is an escalation.
The extreme pacifist Gandhian position (I'm sure you remember that he suggested that Jews commit suicide rather than fight the Nazis) can be an internally consistent position, and people are welcome to adopt it. But I don't see that it has an a priori higher moral standpoint than "these people are being murdered; I'm going to fight alongside them to try to stop that".
posted by Frowner at 6:57 PM on February 14, 2017 [44 favorites]
To carry on, as an armchair pinko with a bad hip: There's this part, weirdly enough, in CS Lewis's otherwise rather reactionary novel Perelandra where the main character is thinking, "but surely when the struggle against the Devil is described, they mean a spiritual struggle, not some muddy physical grappling with an evil human". And then, nope, as he reflects he has this realization that sometimes the way you fight the Devil is by physically fighting an evil thing.
This whole situation is really different from what people of the modern Western left usually have to consider, and it kind of breaks a lot of our rubrics. If I want to fight for the society that I believe in right here, that pretty much means meetings, phonecalls, marches, raising money, etc. And very often it means not mixing it up with the cops, because that escalates and makes things worse. Bringing in violence would be wrong in most (but not all!) situations that I'm actually likely to encounter right now. But if you were to turn back the clock a hundred years, things would be really different - the Truckers' Strike (and that's not even 100 years) in MPLS, the German revolution of 1918 which forced the peace, the Mexican Revolution. For a lot of radicals a hundred years ago, the idea that you might fight in an armed struggle that had an international radical dimension was a real thing.
We in the US are coming off of better than a hundred years of a very strong civil society - a civil society that incorporates and normalizes racist violence into its very fabric, so not a peaceful society, but a society where violence did not spin out into war.
Do you ever think that maybe we prize peace a little too much? When you consider the human lives wasted and destroyed by the prison system and all the feeder systems that go into it, you have to wonder whether it's such a good deal, morally speaking. Not that I'm saying "let's start an urban insurrection"; we've got lots of examples from the recent past of how those get crushed with extreme violence. But you've got to wonder whether the moral status we grant to peace isn't a bit overblown.
posted by Frowner at 7:24 PM on February 14, 2017 [42 favorites]
This whole situation is really different from what people of the modern Western left usually have to consider, and it kind of breaks a lot of our rubrics. If I want to fight for the society that I believe in right here, that pretty much means meetings, phonecalls, marches, raising money, etc. And very often it means not mixing it up with the cops, because that escalates and makes things worse. Bringing in violence would be wrong in most (but not all!) situations that I'm actually likely to encounter right now. But if you were to turn back the clock a hundred years, things would be really different - the Truckers' Strike (and that's not even 100 years) in MPLS, the German revolution of 1918 which forced the peace, the Mexican Revolution. For a lot of radicals a hundred years ago, the idea that you might fight in an armed struggle that had an international radical dimension was a real thing.
We in the US are coming off of better than a hundred years of a very strong civil society - a civil society that incorporates and normalizes racist violence into its very fabric, so not a peaceful society, but a society where violence did not spin out into war.
Do you ever think that maybe we prize peace a little too much? When you consider the human lives wasted and destroyed by the prison system and all the feeder systems that go into it, you have to wonder whether it's such a good deal, morally speaking. Not that I'm saying "let's start an urban insurrection"; we've got lots of examples from the recent past of how those get crushed with extreme violence. But you've got to wonder whether the moral status we grant to peace isn't a bit overblown.
posted by Frowner at 7:24 PM on February 14, 2017 [42 favorites]
This is fascinating for me to read - I know a couple veterans who went over to fight with the Pesh, and they got kicked out. This guy is definitely right that most of them just went to kill ISIS and don't really care about the ideology.
posted by corb at 7:28 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 7:28 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also he didn't say all the German Shepherds are dead - he said there are a lot of dogs running loose because the shepherds who owned them are dead.
posted by atoxyl at 8:16 PM on February 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 8:16 PM on February 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
There are many situations where the best moral choice is to resist an unjust system in a completely pacifistic way, because the chaos that results from destabilizing any established institution, even an unjust one, can potentially be even worse for the vulnerable parts of a society than the injustice of the stable system.
But I'm having trouble imagining a solution to daesh that doesn't involve either a) shooting people or b) the establishment of a wahhabist caliphate even more absurdly violent and oppressive than Saudi Arabia, Qatar, et al. I'm not saying it's not problematic, as I am aware that war is bad. Just saying that hunger strikes are liable to be an unreliable strategy against this particular enemy.
If you're a Quaker or some other strict deontological pacifist I can sympathize with that view, and I'm not suggesting that me or anyone else here is acting immorally by not flying to Syria and signing up.
posted by bracems at 8:17 PM on February 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
But I'm having trouble imagining a solution to daesh that doesn't involve either a) shooting people or b) the establishment of a wahhabist caliphate even more absurdly violent and oppressive than Saudi Arabia, Qatar, et al. I'm not saying it's not problematic, as I am aware that war is bad. Just saying that hunger strikes are liable to be an unreliable strategy against this particular enemy.
If you're a Quaker or some other strict deontological pacifist I can sympathize with that view, and I'm not suggesting that me or anyone else here is acting immorally by not flying to Syria and signing up.
posted by bracems at 8:17 PM on February 14, 2017 [5 favorites]
But you've got to wonder whether the moral status we grant to peace isn't a bit overblown.
It is also instructive to consider who benefits the most by the prioritization of peace uber alles, in various situations. Sometimes it appears as though people have the most... convenient timing in their embrace of nonviolence.
That said, in nearly any situation that hasn't already degenerated into existential, life-or-death conflict on account of the other side's actions, you're insane to escalate to violence, given the historical examples of who usually pays the greatest price once the bullets start flying.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:36 PM on February 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
It is also instructive to consider who benefits the most by the prioritization of peace uber alles, in various situations. Sometimes it appears as though people have the most... convenient timing in their embrace of nonviolence.
That said, in nearly any situation that hasn't already degenerated into existential, life-or-death conflict on account of the other side's actions, you're insane to escalate to violence, given the historical examples of who usually pays the greatest price once the bullets start flying.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:36 PM on February 14, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yeah, just finished listening and want to just +1 atoxyl on that - the title of post is incorrect.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:45 PM on February 14, 2017
posted by lazaruslong at 8:45 PM on February 14, 2017
Hell yeah, frowner, great comments.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:55 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:55 PM on February 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sorry if I missed a link to it but people might also dig this NY Times Magazine article "A Dream of Secular Utopia in ISIS Backyard" which, instead of focusing on Westerners, focuses on the society people are working to create in Rojava
posted by sockkitude at 10:19 PM on February 14, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by sockkitude at 10:19 PM on February 14, 2017 [13 favorites]
I don't have any particular comment on the specific guys interviewed here, but on the broader topic of the right way to fight ISIS:
It's worth noting that "killing ISIS soldiers is necessary" isn't quite the same as "the best use of my time is to buy a gun and a ticket to Syria". Mobilizing popular support in rich Western nations that translates to (for example) greater material support and recognition of the groups fighting ISIS, or to policies treating the broader disease of which ISIS is a symptom (how do we cut off their support? ISIS has to raise money somehow, has to recruit somehow - how do we make it more difficult for them to buy weapons, sell oil internationally, recruit/force people to join their ranks?).
The Spanish Civil War (to which I've heard the Syrian conflict compared) was lost despite the Abraham Lincoln Brigade and other brave and dedicated foreign recruits. A genuine commitment on the part of the Western democracies to support the Republicans against Franco could have turned the tide. I feel like for a lot of people there's a massive, unrecognized gap between pacifism or outright just not engaging with the problem on the one hand and, on the other, the visceral dedication of "direct action" with guns. That gap is full of useful possibilities.
posted by AdamCSnider at 12:15 AM on February 15, 2017 [7 favorites]
It's worth noting that "killing ISIS soldiers is necessary" isn't quite the same as "the best use of my time is to buy a gun and a ticket to Syria". Mobilizing popular support in rich Western nations that translates to (for example) greater material support and recognition of the groups fighting ISIS, or to policies treating the broader disease of which ISIS is a symptom (how do we cut off their support? ISIS has to raise money somehow, has to recruit somehow - how do we make it more difficult for them to buy weapons, sell oil internationally, recruit/force people to join their ranks?).
The Spanish Civil War (to which I've heard the Syrian conflict compared) was lost despite the Abraham Lincoln Brigade and other brave and dedicated foreign recruits. A genuine commitment on the part of the Western democracies to support the Republicans against Franco could have turned the tide. I feel like for a lot of people there's a massive, unrecognized gap between pacifism or outright just not engaging with the problem on the one hand and, on the other, the visceral dedication of "direct action" with guns. That gap is full of useful possibilities.
posted by AdamCSnider at 12:15 AM on February 15, 2017 [7 favorites]
Thanks for this post! What a fascinating article and great comment thread.
posted by missmary6 at 1:23 AM on February 15, 2017
posted by missmary6 at 1:23 AM on February 15, 2017
I don't understand how this works. You can't just like, get a flight into Sulaymānīyah, Iraq from anywhere. How are these 21-year-olds getting there, and from so many different places? And wouldn't a bunch of white dudes rolling into Iraq raise suspicions?
posted by gucci mane at 4:05 AM on February 15, 2017
posted by gucci mane at 4:05 AM on February 15, 2017
There's either this fledgling revolutionary society of extremely marginalized people gets slaughtered by ISIS, which has made a pretty good attempt to slaughter them out of hand in the recent past, or it fights ISIS. That's what's on the table.
I don't recall saying that - I just said that, as an American, I'd feel pretty fucking uneasy about getting involved in war where I understand NONE of the cultural context. Especially when it's not exactly like we have a paradise of peace and justice here at home.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:29 AM on February 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't recall saying that - I just said that, as an American, I'd feel pretty fucking uneasy about getting involved in war where I understand NONE of the cultural context. Especially when it's not exactly like we have a paradise of peace and justice here at home.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:29 AM on February 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
Possibly they got the more-or-less synonymous "anarcho-communism" and "libertarian communism" mixed up and combined the "anarcho-" and "libertarian" parts, dropping the "communism" part?
That kind of cancellation reminds me of the McCarthy-era algebraist who got their grant proposal funded by explaining that it's all about annihilating radical left ideals.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:47 AM on February 15, 2017 [5 favorites]
That kind of cancellation reminds me of the McCarthy-era algebraist who got their grant proposal funded by explaining that it's all about annihilating radical left ideals.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:47 AM on February 15, 2017 [5 favorites]
How are these 21-year-olds getting there
Cheap ticket to Turkey, bus ride to the border and a few bucks to a border guard (and I expect his rolled eyes) will get you on the stupid side.
posted by sammyo at 5:17 AM on February 15, 2017
Cheap ticket to Turkey, bus ride to the border and a few bucks to a border guard (and I expect his rolled eyes) will get you on the stupid side.
posted by sammyo at 5:17 AM on February 15, 2017
I don't understand how this works. You can't just like, get a flight into Sulaymānīyah, Iraq from anywhere. How are these 21-year-olds getting there, and from so many different places? And wouldn't a bunch of white dudes rolling into Iraq raise suspicions?
A plane flight from LAX to Erbil Airport leaves at 6:45 pm, with one stop in Turkey. A car ride to Sulaymānīyah is about 2.5 hours from there, Mosul is only about 1.5 hours. You could be surfing in Santa Monica then on the front lines within (theoretically) 24 hours. If you don't want to fly Turkish Air, Qatar and Lufthansa also make the trip as well, I believe.
posted by roquetuen at 6:35 AM on February 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
A plane flight from LAX to Erbil Airport leaves at 6:45 pm, with one stop in Turkey. A car ride to Sulaymānīyah is about 2.5 hours from there, Mosul is only about 1.5 hours. You could be surfing in Santa Monica then on the front lines within (theoretically) 24 hours. If you don't want to fly Turkish Air, Qatar and Lufthansa also make the trip as well, I believe.
posted by roquetuen at 6:35 AM on February 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is fascinating for me to read - I know a couple veterans who went over to fight with the Pesh, and they got kicked out. This guy is definitely right that most of them just went to kill ISIS and don't really care about the ideology.
It's worth keeping in mind that the Peshmerga and YPG are two different groups - both are armed Kurdish organizations, but the Peshmerga isn't especially ideological (aside from fighting for Kurdish independence), while the YPG... is. The Pesh tends to attract more "angry white dude who wants to blow up ISIS" and has apparently started to sour on foreign fighters a bit, while the YPG welcomes foreigners who share their ideology.
It's also interesting to note that the YPG is supported by the US and (sort of) Russia and backed by air strikes, but it's closely linked to the PKK, which is considered a terrorist organization by the US and the EU (though not by Russia or the UN), largely due to pressure from Turkey, which considers Kurdish separatism to be an existential threat. Syria is complicated.
posted by Itaxpica at 7:06 AM on February 15, 2017 [8 favorites]
It's worth keeping in mind that the Peshmerga and YPG are two different groups - both are armed Kurdish organizations, but the Peshmerga isn't especially ideological (aside from fighting for Kurdish independence), while the YPG... is. The Pesh tends to attract more "angry white dude who wants to blow up ISIS" and has apparently started to sour on foreign fighters a bit, while the YPG welcomes foreigners who share their ideology.
It's also interesting to note that the YPG is supported by the US and (sort of) Russia and backed by air strikes, but it's closely linked to the PKK, which is considered a terrorist organization by the US and the EU (though not by Russia or the UN), largely due to pressure from Turkey, which considers Kurdish separatism to be an existential threat. Syria is complicated.
posted by Itaxpica at 7:06 AM on February 15, 2017 [8 favorites]
has very little to do with the ideology described by the word "libertarian" as co-opted by e.g. the US Libertarian party.
America already uses "conservative" and "liberal" to mean different things from how the rest of the world uses it, what's another political term that we mangle.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:10 AM on February 15, 2017 [4 favorites]
America already uses "conservative" and "liberal" to mean different things from how the rest of the world uses it, what's another political term that we mangle.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:10 AM on February 15, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe what no one is facing up to is the Kurds, and the leftist parts of them, or seemingly secular parts of them, are just being used by all of the above to clear out Daesh, so that the oil industry can take back over, and the Kurds will be exterminated next, and their leftist thoughts. There is a war on Socialism all over the world right now, all the societies in South America, over their oil mono economies, and their lean toward the environment. There is a war on the EU's turn toward renwables. That industry is relentless and thrashing in realization of its impending end, so the gutted world you see is the landlord tearing down what people didn't realize were rentals, over property to be drained of its resources. In the very beginning you could see a lot of white guys in the Daesh photos, then they started wrapping up, and covering themselves. There are whole armies out there of folks who are addicted to conflict as a stimulus, who are paid in foreign accounts, whose allegiance is to stimulus brought by anarchy and close encounters with mortality. I think a lot of Daesh fighters are right there as well, and a winner rape all attitude to accompany. This guy is the same, whether ex heroin addict, or qat chewing, starving, abandoned child impressed into military servitude. They become addicted to impulse to survive.
This guy's no account intellect is no different than a tweaker's lost in paranoid fantasy, hiding out in a shack behind rows of dog cages, on the western desert somewhere. This is like a recruiting ad.
posted by Oyéah at 10:04 AM on February 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
This guy's no account intellect is no different than a tweaker's lost in paranoid fantasy, hiding out in a shack behind rows of dog cages, on the western desert somewhere. This is like a recruiting ad.
posted by Oyéah at 10:04 AM on February 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
p much ollying in here to be like "i agree with frowner especially about the value of ~~PACIFISM~~" -- the state can elide a whole lot of suffering into "functioning civil apparatus". not that i'm saying we should destabilize that apparatus because that is horrible, but i am just weary as hell of tendencies to worship the rule of law like that isn't a fucking meat grinder
o how i thought being well to do and owning a home would cure me of my pesky radical tendency. anyway
years ago i briefly considered going overseas with a friend of mine to do stupid shit without all the ideological fig leaf stuff so accounts like this extra fascinate me. it's like seeing a life path i conceivably could have ended up on had some particular things gone super different, and that gives me a strange feeling.
there are 1,000 paths
posted by beefetish at 10:56 AM on February 15, 2017 [6 favorites]
o how i thought being well to do and owning a home would cure me of my pesky radical tendency. anyway
years ago i briefly considered going overseas with a friend of mine to do stupid shit without all the ideological fig leaf stuff so accounts like this extra fascinate me. it's like seeing a life path i conceivably could have ended up on had some particular things gone super different, and that gives me a strange feeling.
there are 1,000 paths
posted by beefetish at 10:56 AM on February 15, 2017 [6 favorites]
This guy's no account intellect is no different than a tweaker's lost in paranoid fantasy, hiding out in a shack behind rows of dog cages, on the western desert somewhere. This is like a recruiting ad.
The Kurds liberating captive Yezidi and Christians and closing in on Raqqah don't care.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:03 AM on February 15, 2017 [8 favorites]
The Kurds liberating captive Yezidi and Christians and closing in on Raqqah don't care.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:03 AM on February 15, 2017 [8 favorites]
I mean, the actual getting to Syria is one thing, but are there no alarms going off when some white kid wants to fly into Erbil, Iraq? And when some white kid is milling around, looking for some dudes to pick them up for war? This whole thing just sounds...I don't even know, it sounds weird. Like some sort of weird human trafficking deal. The US government doesn't want people fighting over there but isn't doing anything to stop people from going? I was always under the impression that you had to have credentials to get into some of these places, but I guess that's naive of me 😬
posted by gucci mane at 12:01 PM on February 15, 2017
posted by gucci mane at 12:01 PM on February 15, 2017
It's worth keeping in mind that the Peshmerga and YPG are two different groups - both are armed Kurdish organizations, but the Peshmerga isn't especially ideological (aside from fighting for Kurdish independence), while the YPG... is. The Pesh tends to attract more "angry white dude who wants to blow up ISIS" and has apparently started to sour on foreign fighters a bit, while the YPG welcomes foreigners who share their ideology.
In the CTH interview he mentions a couple of times the YPG not getting along with Peshmerga. I don't really personally understand the politics of the region enough to know why this would be.
posted by atoxyl at 12:56 PM on February 15, 2017
In the CTH interview he mentions a couple of times the YPG not getting along with Peshmerga. I don't really personally understand the politics of the region enough to know why this would be.
posted by atoxyl at 12:56 PM on February 15, 2017
It sounded to me a lot more like he was doing a "we're TOTALLY not affiliated with the PKK, as they are officially designated as a terrorist group" sort of plausible deniability thing to me.
posted by The Horse You Rode In On at 2:15 PM on February 15, 2017
posted by The Horse You Rode In On at 2:15 PM on February 15, 2017
@atoxyl: I got the impression that it was because the Peshmerga were letting anyone join them, so a lot of weirdos did, whereas the YPG learned from their mistakes and are now interviewing people and doing a process to make sure people's ideology lineup with theirs.
posted by gucci mane at 2:53 PM on February 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by gucci mane at 2:53 PM on February 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Peshmerga is part of the Kurdistan Regional Government in Iraq, which has fairly amiable ties to Erdogan's Turkey. They are not automatic allies of the YPG.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:57 PM on February 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 2:57 PM on February 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
Nah "we are totally not affiliated with the PKK and especially not me" he said a bunch of times exactly like that. But he talked about having to avoid the Peshmerga - I think while describing how he got to Rojava - and then later said something about "the Iraqi Kurds hate us."
Looking this up it sounds like the KRG/Peshmerga are historically antagonistic with the PKK, which I'm guessing is then extended to their non-alliance with the YPG.
posted by atoxyl at 3:12 PM on February 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
Looking this up it sounds like the KRG/Peshmerga are historically antagonistic with the PKK, which I'm guessing is then extended to their non-alliance with the YPG.
posted by atoxyl at 3:12 PM on February 15, 2017 [2 favorites]
Maybe that's why the KRG got on relatively well with Turkey.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:14 PM on February 15, 2017
posted by Apocryphon at 3:14 PM on February 15, 2017
Gucci mane: Erbil (and many other areas in Kurdistan) is stable, fairly prosperous and Westerners still have little to nothing to fear walking the streets there. I know of friends of friends who have gone backpacking around there within the last year. Hell, it wasn't too long ago that Nelly played a concert there.
We get used to wars happening "way over there" but it wasn't very long ago genocide was being perpetuated in the former Yugoslavia just a short ferry and quick car trip from resorts on the Italian coast.
posted by roquetuen at 12:48 AM on February 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
We get used to wars happening "way over there" but it wasn't very long ago genocide was being perpetuated in the former Yugoslavia just a short ferry and quick car trip from resorts on the Italian coast.
posted by roquetuen at 12:48 AM on February 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
@roquetuen: Interesting! I'm intrigued now.
posted by gucci mane at 11:33 AM on February 21, 2017
posted by gucci mane at 11:33 AM on February 21, 2017
Stumbled across this Wikipedia article:
posted by XMLicious at 2:02 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Surprisingly, parallel articles on this and other Rojava-related topics are missing from Kurdish Wikipedia. So for anyone who's studying their Kurdish in preparation to go join the fight, there are some projects for you.Jineology (Kurdish: Jineolojî), the science of women, or women's science, is a form of feminism and gender equality advocated by Abdullah Öcalan, the leader of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) and the broader Kurdistan Communities Union (KCK) umbrella. From the background of honor-based religious and tribal rules that oppress women in regional societies, Öcalan said that "a country can't be free unless the women are free", and that the level of woman's freedom determines the level of freedom in society at large.
posted by XMLicious at 2:02 AM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
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(On the kinds of people who joined up) " ...some were pyscopaths that just wanted to kill people. There was one guy called Kin The Cannibal."
(Beat)
Host: and HOW did he get that name?"
posted by The Whelk at 2:09 PM on February 14, 2017 [3 favorites]