Appalachia coming at ya/Nazi scum we're gonna smash ya
June 23, 2017 11:52 AM Subscribe
"Redneck Revolt’s anti-racist, anti-capitalist message seems to be taking hold in communities across the United States. The organization had just 13 chapters in January but has nearly tripled its chapters nationally in the last 6 months. The group now has 34 different branches, 26 of which are in states that voted for Trump. Multiple chapters have over fifty members." Redneck Revolt pushes against the KKK and other reactionary moviements in white, working class spaces.
well...all is not what it seems FYI
posted by shockingbluamp at 12:12 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by shockingbluamp at 12:12 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
well...all is not what it seems FYI
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:25 PM on June 23, 2017 [28 favorites]
First and foremost I made it clear that it is my understanding that democracy and fascism are two sides of the same coin, that fascism is even fair to be considered a highly evolved form of the liberal democratic state and that I would have no part in so-called “antifa” shit.And that's where I stopped reading.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:25 PM on June 23, 2017 [28 favorites]
well...all is not what it seems FYI
And the circular firing squad continues...
posted by ethansr at 12:27 PM on June 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
And the circular firing squad continues...
posted by ethansr at 12:27 PM on June 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
well...all is not what it seems FYI
It may in fact not be (I have no idea), but that essay was incredibly confusing to me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:28 PM on June 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
It may in fact not be (I have no idea), but that essay was incredibly confusing to me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:28 PM on June 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
It may in fact not be (I have no idea), but that essay was incredibly confusing to me.
It's basically the anarchist form of this, so far as I can tell.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:31 PM on June 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
It's basically the anarchist form of this, so far as I can tell.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:31 PM on June 23, 2017 [7 favorites]
Read that anarchist news essay past the "democracy and fascism are two sides of the same coin and I won't do antifa work" part. It seems pretty interesting about race and Redneck Revolt, and I think it makes some pretty good points. That doesn't mean that RR is terrible at all - for one thing, any chapter-based org is going to be different at different times and in different locations. And it doesn't mean that all the essay's criticisms are right on. (I mean, so what if RR charges dues - well, so does the IWW, and the IWW, at least locally, uses those dues to get shit done. It's not evil to charge dues as long as you have a hardship waiver/sliding scale.) But honestly, white-majority radical orgs often are weird about race, and this fucks things up. "Being weird about race" isn't the same as "being racist", it just means "not doing a good job for one of many reasons".
I mean, anarchist news types tend to be the more difficult kinds of anarchists, let's not lie - that place was a cesspit the last time I was reading it regularly - but that doesn't mean that their analysis is wrong.
It can be true both that an org needs to improve on some things and that it does other things well. It can be true that an org can do worthwhile work in one area while also frustrating some people enough to drive them away. Talking about this isn't a circular firing squad - presumably RR doesn't want to be weird and unwelcoming to POC members, and how are they going to change if no one says anything?
Anarchist News always used to be the "it's not perfect so I quit" anarchist site, and I don't think that's a super helpful attitude, but you can still take someone's critique seriously even if you don't totally agree with all of it or their response.
posted by Frowner at 12:41 PM on June 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
I mean, anarchist news types tend to be the more difficult kinds of anarchists, let's not lie - that place was a cesspit the last time I was reading it regularly - but that doesn't mean that their analysis is wrong.
It can be true both that an org needs to improve on some things and that it does other things well. It can be true that an org can do worthwhile work in one area while also frustrating some people enough to drive them away. Talking about this isn't a circular firing squad - presumably RR doesn't want to be weird and unwelcoming to POC members, and how are they going to change if no one says anything?
Anarchist News always used to be the "it's not perfect so I quit" anarchist site, and I don't think that's a super helpful attitude, but you can still take someone's critique seriously even if you don't totally agree with all of it or their response.
posted by Frowner at 12:41 PM on June 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
And that's where I stopped reading.
I got all the way to the end, but I had to read the last couple of paragraphs with a splint on after a grievous eyerolling injury at "I am less scared of Trump than Redneck Revolt."
posted by Etrigan at 12:42 PM on June 23, 2017 [23 favorites]
I got all the way to the end, but I had to read the last couple of paragraphs with a splint on after a grievous eyerolling injury at "I am less scared of Trump than Redneck Revolt."
posted by Etrigan at 12:42 PM on June 23, 2017 [23 favorites]
That takedown of RR is really weird. The group is almost explicitly a group about combating white supremacy in rural, white majority areas. It's gonna be white people reaching out to other white people. It's gonna be some real, basic, 101 shit.
For better or worse, when you're reaching out to white supremacists, or to people at risk of being radicalized into white supremacy, it probably helps to be a white person.
posted by explosion at 12:51 PM on June 23, 2017 [52 favorites]
For better or worse, when you're reaching out to white supremacists, or to people at risk of being radicalized into white supremacy, it probably helps to be a white person.
posted by explosion at 12:51 PM on June 23, 2017 [52 favorites]
My understanding that the answer to the question, "what are white people doing about white people?" being "Twitter and Facebook posts," now needs an update. And self-titled anarchists are generally nihilists to me, at least the US variety.
posted by rhizome at 1:07 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:07 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
The "redneck" epithet used to apply specifically to left-wing country people, and one etymology traces it to red emblems of solidarity worn by striking workers. (Seems like the latter is probably not original; some Wikipedia discussion.)
posted by grobstein at 1:46 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 1:46 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
I sympathize with the anarchist news dude, in that I was drawn in by the "anti-capitalist" bit (as well as the redneck angle) and was hoping for more of that and less of the racism stuff. Not that fighting against white supremacists isn't worthwhile, but they're already quite marginalized and disorganized in my part of the world, and taking them down even where they're more relevant seems to fall somewhat short of the level of difficulty I imagine the revolution a typical anarchist might be hoping for would entail.
posted by sfenders at 1:51 PM on June 23, 2017
posted by sfenders at 1:51 PM on June 23, 2017
This is white working-class American progressives and leftists responding to the (wise, reasonable, timely) call to "come get your people." Is it imperfect in implementation? Most likely. But it's a good fucking idea.
If you're white and working class and you live in these communities, and you believe in solidarity and unity and equality, this helps you show the fuck up in the places other people aren't used to seeing you. And this lets them do some of the 101-level outreach work to people who maybe haven't been exposed to those ideas or haven't been open to them before (it's always some white guy's first time hearing about socialism) and not continue to offload that fucking pedagogical work to people of color, religious minorities, lgbtq people, women, etc.
posted by penduluum at 1:55 PM on June 23, 2017 [71 favorites]
If you're white and working class and you live in these communities, and you believe in solidarity and unity and equality, this helps you show the fuck up in the places other people aren't used to seeing you. And this lets them do some of the 101-level outreach work to people who maybe haven't been exposed to those ideas or haven't been open to them before (it's always some white guy's first time hearing about socialism) and not continue to offload that fucking pedagogical work to people of color, religious minorities, lgbtq people, women, etc.
posted by penduluum at 1:55 PM on June 23, 2017 [71 favorites]
I know how much MetaFilter loves to hate gun-worshipping survivalists (as do I), so it comes as a surprise to me that all they need, by way of rehabilitation, are some weak platitudes about community and anti-capitalism. This must be an American thing because it makes absolutely no sense to me.
posted by klanawa at 2:13 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 2:13 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
penduluum nailed it. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Also, this feels like a particularly timely and needed way for Southerners to do progressive work, but also work that fundamentally rejects the wholesale abandonment of the South as an utterly lost cause full of backward hicks that should just drop dead of their own ignorance already. Which is a viewpoint I see coming from other progressive groups in a lot of places, including Metafilter. I don't necessarily agree that guns are the answer, but I do think things like the John Brown gun club make powerful political statements and I respect that. And God knows the South could use more "food programs, community gardens, clothing programs, and needle exchanges".
posted by WidgetAlley at 2:32 PM on June 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
Also, this feels like a particularly timely and needed way for Southerners to do progressive work, but also work that fundamentally rejects the wholesale abandonment of the South as an utterly lost cause full of backward hicks that should just drop dead of their own ignorance already. Which is a viewpoint I see coming from other progressive groups in a lot of places, including Metafilter. I don't necessarily agree that guns are the answer, but I do think things like the John Brown gun club make powerful political statements and I respect that. And God knows the South could use more "food programs, community gardens, clothing programs, and needle exchanges".
posted by WidgetAlley at 2:32 PM on June 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
Young Patriots Organization Redux, comes home. Brave motherfuckers.
posted by eustatic at 2:38 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 2:38 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
call me crazy, but i think it is nice for people to tell rural southerners that they can stop being racist without summarily discarding their entire culture! that seems like a good thing to me!
posted by murphy slaw at 2:41 PM on June 23, 2017 [37 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 2:41 PM on June 23, 2017 [37 favorites]
I know how much MetaFilter loves to hate gun-worshipping survivalists (as do I), so it comes as a surprise to me that all they need, by way of rehabilitation, are some weak platitudes about community and anti-capitalism.
Also, this feels like a particularly timely and needed way for Southerners to do progressive work, but also work that fundamentally rejects the wholesale abandonment of the South as an utterly lost cause full of backward hicks that should just drop dead of their own ignorance already. Which is a viewpoint I see coming from other progressive groups in a lot of places, including Metafilter
the juxtaposition of these comments is so fucking choice, gotta say
posted by sciatrix at 2:46 PM on June 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
Also, this feels like a particularly timely and needed way for Southerners to do progressive work, but also work that fundamentally rejects the wholesale abandonment of the South as an utterly lost cause full of backward hicks that should just drop dead of their own ignorance already. Which is a viewpoint I see coming from other progressive groups in a lot of places, including Metafilter
the juxtaposition of these comments is so fucking choice, gotta say
posted by sciatrix at 2:46 PM on June 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
I do not look forward to the California-centered metafilter discussion of this topic. southerners and class issues? together? naw-ah.
This topic is not for this place; and I would advise other readers who are already discouraged to take a breath, we all knew this place would not be that understanding of this discussion.
I love all you guys, but, this place certainly has its limitations.
posted by eustatic at 2:50 PM on June 23, 2017 [20 favorites]
This topic is not for this place; and I would advise other readers who are already discouraged to take a breath, we all knew this place would not be that understanding of this discussion.
I love all you guys, but, this place certainly has its limitations.
posted by eustatic at 2:50 PM on June 23, 2017 [20 favorites]
seriously, I'm okay with not agreeing with these dudes about all my values; I'm just fucking glad they're doing the work to step up for other marginalized people and stand against the motherfucking KKK while also providing an easy in for people to stand against that thing without feeling like they have to give up everything that tells them who they are. my sense of who I am has been pretty viciously shaken in the past year, so I am totally here for helping people engage in anti-racism and anti-fascism while letting them hold onto things that feel familiar and comfortable to them. Especially when those are often fucking class markers that are already pretty marginalized on our end of the political spectrum.
And if I wanted to learn to shoot, well, this gives me someone else to contact besides the Pink Pistols. That gives me options. (I don't believe in guns for self defense, but I do believe in them for hunting. And god knows I'm okay with more people knowing basic safety training, and... well, more thoughts on that later.)
posted by sciatrix at 2:50 PM on June 23, 2017 [29 favorites]
And if I wanted to learn to shoot, well, this gives me someone else to contact besides the Pink Pistols. That gives me options. (I don't believe in guns for self defense, but I do believe in them for hunting. And god knows I'm okay with more people knowing basic safety training, and... well, more thoughts on that later.)
posted by sciatrix at 2:50 PM on June 23, 2017 [29 favorites]
if I have to bawl you all out again about the South (or in this case Appalachia) in MeTa again, I swear I will. and I'm typing this from a goddamn laboratory in Austin, okay, I ain't the best Defender Of the Rural South, but for goddamn crying out loud.
posted by sciatrix at 2:52 PM on June 23, 2017 [35 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 2:52 PM on June 23, 2017 [35 favorites]
I know how much MetaFilter loves to hate gun-worshipping survivalists (as do I), so it comes as a surprise to me that all they need, by way of rehabilitation, are some weak platitudes about community and anti-capitalism.
To be clear, you are characterizing "food programs, community gardens, clothing programs, and needle exchanges in addition to their armed self-defense programs" as "weak platitudes"?
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 2:54 PM on June 23, 2017 [18 favorites]
To be clear, you are characterizing "food programs, community gardens, clothing programs, and needle exchanges in addition to their armed self-defense programs" as "weak platitudes"?
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 2:54 PM on June 23, 2017 [18 favorites]
I'm characterising the embrace of violence and survivalism as fundamentally antithetical to the goals of a social movement. I also reject the false choice between Southernness and violence for that matter.
posted by klanawa at 2:56 PM on June 23, 2017
posted by klanawa at 2:56 PM on June 23, 2017
I know how much MetaFilter loves to hate gun-worshipping survivalists (as do I), so it comes as a surprise to me that all they need, by way of rehabilitation, are some weak platitudes about community and anti-capitalism. This must be an American thing because it makes absolutely no sense to me.
It's not a super popular sentiment in some liberal circles, but there are large chunks of rural America who really have been neglected by both parties when it comes to their actual needs - it's just that the Republicans were smart enough to 1) pay lip service to them and 2) engage in decades of fearmongering to reinforce the existing latent prejudices of much of the population.
The response to this is usually "but they haven't been neglected, Democrats are offering more programs that can help them and Republicans want to take them away." Which is sometimes true (not always - remember, it's not like the Dems are socialists who prioritize the needs of the poor and marginalized above all else, they're just less shitty about it than Republicans.) But moreover, Democrats have been and continue to be absolutely awful at communicating their messages to people. The fact that a program whose goal is to meet people where they are, and speak to them in language that fits in with their worldview, has been successful is totally unsurprising to me.
And, kinda related to the above, I want to address this:
I know how much MetaFilter loves to hate gun-worshipping survivalists (as do I)
I have a different perspective on gun ownership than most of Metafilter does. I grew up in a liberal gun-owning household. I don't own one myself and am not likely to, and I most definitely support gun control, but I also don't think owning guns is necessarily a bad thing. I think it's totally possible for gun ownership to be responsible and safe. And I understand and to a certain degree sympathize with (though mostly disagree with) the libertarian/conservative perspective that the 2nd amendment is a protection against tyranny.
Gun ownership and gun culture in this country is absolutely out of control right now and it's an urgent issue that needs to be addressed. We need a lot of major changes. But there are lots and lots of people in this country who believe strongly in their right to own guns who are not "gun-worshipping survivalists," and writing off every pro-gun person as an unreachable whackjob is incredibly counterproductive and inaccurate.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:00 PM on June 23, 2017 [32 favorites]
It's not a super popular sentiment in some liberal circles, but there are large chunks of rural America who really have been neglected by both parties when it comes to their actual needs - it's just that the Republicans were smart enough to 1) pay lip service to them and 2) engage in decades of fearmongering to reinforce the existing latent prejudices of much of the population.
The response to this is usually "but they haven't been neglected, Democrats are offering more programs that can help them and Republicans want to take them away." Which is sometimes true (not always - remember, it's not like the Dems are socialists who prioritize the needs of the poor and marginalized above all else, they're just less shitty about it than Republicans.) But moreover, Democrats have been and continue to be absolutely awful at communicating their messages to people. The fact that a program whose goal is to meet people where they are, and speak to them in language that fits in with their worldview, has been successful is totally unsurprising to me.
And, kinda related to the above, I want to address this:
I know how much MetaFilter loves to hate gun-worshipping survivalists (as do I)
I have a different perspective on gun ownership than most of Metafilter does. I grew up in a liberal gun-owning household. I don't own one myself and am not likely to, and I most definitely support gun control, but I also don't think owning guns is necessarily a bad thing. I think it's totally possible for gun ownership to be responsible and safe. And I understand and to a certain degree sympathize with (though mostly disagree with) the libertarian/conservative perspective that the 2nd amendment is a protection against tyranny.
Gun ownership and gun culture in this country is absolutely out of control right now and it's an urgent issue that needs to be addressed. We need a lot of major changes. But there are lots and lots of people in this country who believe strongly in their right to own guns who are not "gun-worshipping survivalists," and writing off every pro-gun person as an unreachable whackjob is incredibly counterproductive and inaccurate.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:00 PM on June 23, 2017 [32 favorites]
Wow. This is pretty much a thing I've been alluding to for a long time, and wondering why it hadn't happened already, because I've always thought something like this would have legs.
Of course they're going to be Public Enemy #1. A bunch of Bros in coastal cities has minimal influence on the Republican base.
This is not my vision, but it's going to work for some, and gives a choice and an outlet to people who simply can't relate to many liberal groups, which can be exclusive.
posted by bongo_x at 3:03 PM on June 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Of course they're going to be Public Enemy #1. A bunch of Bros in coastal cities has minimal influence on the Republican base.
This is not my vision, but it's going to work for some, and gives a choice and an outlet to people who simply can't relate to many liberal groups, which can be exclusive.
posted by bongo_x at 3:03 PM on June 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
“It’s the betrayal of a shared class condition,” Cicariello-Maher said. “Du Bois is so struck by the fact that poor whites and slaves had so much in common and had so much potential for solidarity, and yet ultimately poor whites sided with the slaveowners and sided with what Du Bois called ‘the petty wages of whiteness.’ Psychological wages that make you feel better than someone else, but also material wages in the sense that you can work as a slave catcher and that’s better than not having any job at all.”
Shaun from Pittsburgh’s chapter of Redneck Revolt discussed the conditions of these “psychological wages.”
Shaun likes to tell potential members, “white supremacy is essentially a fight to be the best treated dog in the kennel.”
Saving this bit, it's great that it doesn't dance around the fact that there was and is real material motivations to side with the rich for poor whites.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:08 PM on June 23, 2017 [26 favorites]
Shaun from Pittsburgh’s chapter of Redneck Revolt discussed the conditions of these “psychological wages.”
Shaun likes to tell potential members, “white supremacy is essentially a fight to be the best treated dog in the kennel.”
Saving this bit, it's great that it doesn't dance around the fact that there was and is real material motivations to side with the rich for poor whites.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:08 PM on June 23, 2017 [26 favorites]
Note that I used the phrase "gun-worshipping survivalists" to refer specifically to gun-worshipping survivalists. There are just as many guns in rural Canada where I grew up as there are in the rural US, so don't think I'm some kind of naive dipshit when it comes to guns. I don't like guns, any guns, but I'm conscious of the distinctions between people and their varying attitudes towards guns, so maybe try not to be so god damned condescending about it, OK?
But in the US, the notion of guns as political tools is fucking insane. Attracting people to your movement by cultivating a siege mentality -- I don't care how many heirloom tomatoes you grow behind the razor wire -- is not going to result in the kind of society most people want. I guarantee it.
But whatever. I live in a reasonably functional, peaceful democracy, so what do I know, right?
posted by klanawa at 3:12 PM on June 23, 2017
But in the US, the notion of guns as political tools is fucking insane. Attracting people to your movement by cultivating a siege mentality -- I don't care how many heirloom tomatoes you grow behind the razor wire -- is not going to result in the kind of society most people want. I guarantee it.
But whatever. I live in a reasonably functional, peaceful democracy, so what do I know, right?
posted by klanawa at 3:12 PM on June 23, 2017
I'm characterising the embrace of violence and survivalism as fundamentally antithetical to the goals of a social movement. I also reject the false choice between Southernness and violence for that matter.
Bully for you! Personally, I'm characterizing the rejection of groups of people trying to recruit as many people as possible to the goal of breaking down classist and racist structures in the US while also targeting a terrifying and strengthening fascist movement as fundamentally antithetical to the goal of actually achieving that goal. I hope you enjoy your principles; having watching movements rising in rural Texas and watching people begin to mobilize and try to do good work with angry people, I shall continue to praise initiatives and groups like this as pivotal to achieving the goals of my own social movement.
We can talk about guns and appropriate safety methods later; frankly, if these guys are who I think they are, they appreciate the whole "we do not leave guns in our kitchen drawers for children to find" thing already and are working on reducing the inane and dangerous agendas the NRA pushes. It's possible to come to a workable compromise on those things, but not without actually making a space for people who don't agree with you on everything.
Note: don't like guns much myself, raised by parents who think that guns should absolutely all be rounded up and removed from the hands of everyone humanly possible and strictly controlled. Also raised by parents who think we definitely shouldn't raise the minimum wage because those jobs are only for high schoolers starting out, Black Lives Matter is dangerous, immigration crackdowns need to happen more because they broke the law, and that whole estate tax thing is fucking ridiculous because what if they're prevented from passing down all their accumulated wealth to their children? They amassed it, they should get to control it!
There are more fucking important things out there.
posted by sciatrix at 3:15 PM on June 23, 2017 [29 favorites]
Bully for you! Personally, I'm characterizing the rejection of groups of people trying to recruit as many people as possible to the goal of breaking down classist and racist structures in the US while also targeting a terrifying and strengthening fascist movement as fundamentally antithetical to the goal of actually achieving that goal. I hope you enjoy your principles; having watching movements rising in rural Texas and watching people begin to mobilize and try to do good work with angry people, I shall continue to praise initiatives and groups like this as pivotal to achieving the goals of my own social movement.
We can talk about guns and appropriate safety methods later; frankly, if these guys are who I think they are, they appreciate the whole "we do not leave guns in our kitchen drawers for children to find" thing already and are working on reducing the inane and dangerous agendas the NRA pushes. It's possible to come to a workable compromise on those things, but not without actually making a space for people who don't agree with you on everything.
Note: don't like guns much myself, raised by parents who think that guns should absolutely all be rounded up and removed from the hands of everyone humanly possible and strictly controlled. Also raised by parents who think we definitely shouldn't raise the minimum wage because those jobs are only for high schoolers starting out, Black Lives Matter is dangerous, immigration crackdowns need to happen more because they broke the law, and that whole estate tax thing is fucking ridiculous because what if they're prevented from passing down all their accumulated wealth to their children? They amassed it, they should get to control it!
There are more fucking important things out there.
posted by sciatrix at 3:15 PM on June 23, 2017 [29 favorites]
I had to read the last couple of paragraphs with a splint on after a grievous eyerolling injury at "I am less scared of Trump than Redneck Revolt."
To be fair, that's less risible coming from a person of color (which the author of that remark claims to be) than coming from, say, Jill Stein. It being an anonymous comment on the internet, tho, it's hard to say how much credit it deserves.
I generally find revolutionary rhetoric eye-rolly at best and dangerous at worst and I'm even less thrilled by the prospect of armed revolutionaries of any ideological stripe. But if--and I consider it a big "if"--they are actually managing to abate white supremacism in rural communities, then more power to them.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:16 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
To be fair, that's less risible coming from a person of color (which the author of that remark claims to be) than coming from, say, Jill Stein. It being an anonymous comment on the internet, tho, it's hard to say how much credit it deserves.
I generally find revolutionary rhetoric eye-rolly at best and dangerous at worst and I'm even less thrilled by the prospect of armed revolutionaries of any ideological stripe. But if--and I consider it a big "if"--they are actually managing to abate white supremacism in rural communities, then more power to them.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:16 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
klanawa, why on earth do you think they're focusing their entire movement around guns and survivalism? The article is clear that they're targeting majority-white spaces which are also the places that white supremacy groups recruit from.
Redneck Revolt inserts themselves into overwhelmingly white spaces—NASCAR races, gun shows, flea markets in rural communities, and country music concerts—to offer a meaningful alternative to the white supremacist groups who often also recruit in those spaces.
They're gun user inclusive. That's not the nucleus of what the org is trying to be and do.
posted by sciatrix at 3:17 PM on June 23, 2017 [14 favorites]
Redneck Revolt inserts themselves into overwhelmingly white spaces—NASCAR races, gun shows, flea markets in rural communities, and country music concerts—to offer a meaningful alternative to the white supremacist groups who often also recruit in those spaces.
They're gun user inclusive. That's not the nucleus of what the org is trying to be and do.
posted by sciatrix at 3:17 PM on June 23, 2017 [14 favorites]
I mean, my real fear over the last decades of my life is that of having to live in a US with minimally effective state and central governments and needing to rely on a patchwork of quasi- and not-so-quasi-governmental gangs to get by.
(Of course, what's a cyberpunk dystopia without gangs?)
posted by octobersurprise at 3:27 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
(Of course, what's a cyberpunk dystopia without gangs?)
posted by octobersurprise at 3:27 PM on June 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
And it's interesting that these guys explicitly aren't saying "we need to sell out the Brown people in order to get economic justice".
posted by bongo_x at 3:29 PM on June 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 3:29 PM on June 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
In re guns: The world is large. Here in MPLS, I take a really dim view of the left arming itself, and don't feel that good about the situations where I know there are armed leftists. That's because this is a city! Without a strong gun culture! The people who have guns (that they carry and have around all the time) are not, for the most part, people who hunt or grew up with guns, they're people who either are forced to live in a gun-assault heavy milieu and get a gun as a defensive strategy (like poor Philando Castile) or who are racist and classist and fantasize about shooting "bad guys". An armed left escalates things here. If I were confronted with a gun, it would be because things were very, very, very bad, not because everybody has a gun because they shoot rabbits. And if I brought a gun, it would escalate things.
I am prepared to believe that in a culture where a lot of people just have guns because they're a useful tool and part of a hobby, leftists carrying guns would actually be normalizing/equalizing rather than escalating, and participating in gun culture would actually be a good way to relate to people. This is something where, if I thought the people on the ground were serious and intelligent, I would trust their judgment.
If there's one thing I don't think about "revolution", it's that it should/could/will come in the same form all over the earth.
posted by Frowner at 3:30 PM on June 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
I am prepared to believe that in a culture where a lot of people just have guns because they're a useful tool and part of a hobby, leftists carrying guns would actually be normalizing/equalizing rather than escalating, and participating in gun culture would actually be a good way to relate to people. This is something where, if I thought the people on the ground were serious and intelligent, I would trust their judgment.
If there's one thing I don't think about "revolution", it's that it should/could/will come in the same form all over the earth.
posted by Frowner at 3:30 PM on June 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
And the irony of "I agree with the goals, but I don't know if I can align myself because I can't relate to the way these people present themselves."
posted by bongo_x at 3:34 PM on June 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 3:34 PM on June 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
the embrace of violence and survivalism as fundamentally antithetical to the goals of a social movement
Violence has not been antithetical to the goals of positive social movements in the past; furthermore, the people RR is attempting to reach and unite with are being targeted by state and personal violence right now, today. I hope that this social movement can succeed without resort to violence, but I'm less of an optimist these days.
I live in a reasonably functional, peaceful democracy, so what do I know, right?
Congratulations. The people in RR and the people they are trying to connect with do not, currently. Maybe their means to rise up are different than yours.
Look, you're not wrong. The gun as a political tool seems like it should be an insane idea anywhere in the world in the year 2017. But leaving aside the fact that most of the work RR aims to do has nothing to do with owning or shooting guns -- the gun is being used as a political tool on us. Americans are being killed in the street, without recourse or legal process, by the state or by individuals the state declines to prosecute. What would you have them do?
Now further realize that RR itself represents a class and cohort of people who may have very recently become aware that (1) that fact of state murder has been the prevailing situation since literally before the founding of their nation and (2) some of that violence has been done by (or glossed over by, or done in the name of causes supported by) people very much like them. Maybe their neighbors, maybe their ancestors. The land they live on has been claimed as home turf by some the worst, most despicable people there are. Imagine how it feels for one of those despicable people to assume you agree with them, because of where you live or how you talk. And so it is incumbent on them, maybe more than any other group, to use whatever means necessary to separate themselves as fully as possible from the violence and exploitation of the past and the present, to defend themselves and unite with others, and to try to be the tip of the spear of the social movement working for progress and positive change for all people.
posted by penduluum at 3:36 PM on June 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
Violence has not been antithetical to the goals of positive social movements in the past; furthermore, the people RR is attempting to reach and unite with are being targeted by state and personal violence right now, today. I hope that this social movement can succeed without resort to violence, but I'm less of an optimist these days.
I live in a reasonably functional, peaceful democracy, so what do I know, right?
Congratulations. The people in RR and the people they are trying to connect with do not, currently. Maybe their means to rise up are different than yours.
Look, you're not wrong. The gun as a political tool seems like it should be an insane idea anywhere in the world in the year 2017. But leaving aside the fact that most of the work RR aims to do has nothing to do with owning or shooting guns -- the gun is being used as a political tool on us. Americans are being killed in the street, without recourse or legal process, by the state or by individuals the state declines to prosecute. What would you have them do?
Now further realize that RR itself represents a class and cohort of people who may have very recently become aware that (1) that fact of state murder has been the prevailing situation since literally before the founding of their nation and (2) some of that violence has been done by (or glossed over by, or done in the name of causes supported by) people very much like them. Maybe their neighbors, maybe their ancestors. The land they live on has been claimed as home turf by some the worst, most despicable people there are. Imagine how it feels for one of those despicable people to assume you agree with them, because of where you live or how you talk. And so it is incumbent on them, maybe more than any other group, to use whatever means necessary to separate themselves as fully as possible from the violence and exploitation of the past and the present, to defend themselves and unite with others, and to try to be the tip of the spear of the social movement working for progress and positive change for all people.
posted by penduluum at 3:36 PM on June 23, 2017 [21 favorites]
Yeah we're not going to be much help to marginalized people in rural areas if we insist that rural American masculinity be dismantled before we associate with them politically.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:37 PM on June 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 3:37 PM on June 23, 2017 [12 favorites]
But in the US, the notion of guns as political tools is fucking insane.
You're probably right, it is pretty insane, but does the situation seem normal down here to you?
When there are actual literal Nazis parading around with guns and a desire to use them, and the state no longer has any interest at all in protecting the people they want to use them on, it's not a universally stupid idea to want to have the ability to have and use one yourself, so long as it's legal.
I've been asked by more than one person at threat from this administration if I would teach them how to shoot, because they are afraid of the other people with guns. I'm from a farming family with a lot of people with military background, who all hunt, I'm actually kind of these guy's core demo. I'm into it, if there was one near me I'd suss them out in person.
I am prepared to believe that in a culture where a lot of people just have guns because they're a useful tool and part of a hobby, leftists carrying guns would actually be normalizing/equalizing rather than escalating, and participating in gun culture would actually be a good way to relate to people. This is something where, if I thought the people on the ground were serious and intelligent, I would trust their judgment.
One of the side-effects of our gun control approach is that by treating guns as a universal bad thing (which there are valid arguments for) we ensure that lots of calmer, more responsible folks never learn anything about guns, and thus can't participate in that community at all, and the idiot factor is magnified.
Another is that when I hear most gun owners talk about gun control, they are generally against the concept. When I, a fellow white male gun owner, explain the actual restrictions being considered, they are almost universally in favor of all of them, or easily brought around. There aren't enough reasonable liberal folk in that community to over-ride the massive amount of propaganda dumped into it by the NRA.
posted by neonrev at 3:46 PM on June 23, 2017 [26 favorites]
You're probably right, it is pretty insane, but does the situation seem normal down here to you?
When there are actual literal Nazis parading around with guns and a desire to use them, and the state no longer has any interest at all in protecting the people they want to use them on, it's not a universally stupid idea to want to have the ability to have and use one yourself, so long as it's legal.
I've been asked by more than one person at threat from this administration if I would teach them how to shoot, because they are afraid of the other people with guns. I'm from a farming family with a lot of people with military background, who all hunt, I'm actually kind of these guy's core demo. I'm into it, if there was one near me I'd suss them out in person.
I am prepared to believe that in a culture where a lot of people just have guns because they're a useful tool and part of a hobby, leftists carrying guns would actually be normalizing/equalizing rather than escalating, and participating in gun culture would actually be a good way to relate to people. This is something where, if I thought the people on the ground were serious and intelligent, I would trust their judgment.
One of the side-effects of our gun control approach is that by treating guns as a universal bad thing (which there are valid arguments for) we ensure that lots of calmer, more responsible folks never learn anything about guns, and thus can't participate in that community at all, and the idiot factor is magnified.
Another is that when I hear most gun owners talk about gun control, they are generally against the concept. When I, a fellow white male gun owner, explain the actual restrictions being considered, they are almost universally in favor of all of them, or easily brought around. There aren't enough reasonable liberal folk in that community to over-ride the massive amount of propaganda dumped into it by the NRA.
posted by neonrev at 3:46 PM on June 23, 2017 [26 favorites]
"Associating with them politically" isn't even on the table right now. I just read a story about some people who said (and may do) some things I think are foolish and some things I think are admirable. I'm happy to reserve judgement at this point.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:51 PM on June 23, 2017
posted by octobersurprise at 3:51 PM on June 23, 2017
Gun culture and rural culture absolutely overlap. If I moved back to the sticks I would probably get back into shooting because it's a great way to relate to the neighbors. Also because it is fun, and is a thing I enjoy doing that offsets the whole "weird religious but not Christian person with a perplexing gender" thing. It offers people a way in.
And there is such a terrible problem with overt white supremacy and also pleasant but not terribly woke sorts enabling white supremacist behavior in the fabulous world of guns, so I am happy for anybody who feels they can do so to push back on that kind of thing. I feel like the work of making people less shitty needs to go on where people are, and if the RR folks can go into their spaces and do work there, so much the better. I feel like this is a particular challenge for white people, because even if we are aware of white supremacist nonsense in our social or fun spheres it can be very difficult to push back. So this is encouraging!
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 5:54 PM on June 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
And there is such a terrible problem with overt white supremacy and also pleasant but not terribly woke sorts enabling white supremacist behavior in the fabulous world of guns, so I am happy for anybody who feels they can do so to push back on that kind of thing. I feel like the work of making people less shitty needs to go on where people are, and if the RR folks can go into their spaces and do work there, so much the better. I feel like this is a particular challenge for white people, because even if we are aware of white supremacist nonsense in our social or fun spheres it can be very difficult to push back. So this is encouraging!
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 5:54 PM on June 23, 2017 [13 favorites]
I am prepared to believe that in a culture where a lot of people just have guns because they're a useful tool and part of a hobby, leftists carrying guns would actually be normalizing/equalizing rather than escalating, and participating in gun culture would actually be a good way to relate to people.
I don't want to overly romanticize it or oversimplify the situation, but you have essentially described the situation in Vermont (my birthplace), which incongruously, despite being one of the most left-wing states, also has some of the laxest gun control laws, as well as a high level of gun ownership relative to its neighbors. I know that sounds like an ecological fallacy, but it's not just right-wing Vermonters who own guns; even solid left Democratic politicians have historically tended to be cold-to-lukewarm on gun control (Sanders, Dean, etc.). Moderate gun control is gaining some traction now in the wake of mass shootings, etc., but I think VT at least serves as a counterexample, showing that hunting/sporting gun culture and leftism aren't intrinsically in opposition, even in the USA.
posted by en forme de poire at 7:03 PM on June 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't want to overly romanticize it or oversimplify the situation, but you have essentially described the situation in Vermont (my birthplace), which incongruously, despite being one of the most left-wing states, also has some of the laxest gun control laws, as well as a high level of gun ownership relative to its neighbors. I know that sounds like an ecological fallacy, but it's not just right-wing Vermonters who own guns; even solid left Democratic politicians have historically tended to be cold-to-lukewarm on gun control (Sanders, Dean, etc.). Moderate gun control is gaining some traction now in the wake of mass shootings, etc., but I think VT at least serves as a counterexample, showing that hunting/sporting gun culture and leftism aren't intrinsically in opposition, even in the USA.
posted by en forme de poire at 7:03 PM on June 23, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't know how I feel about this or whether it's a positive or negative in toto, but I'm 100% certain that any viable Left movement in the USA will have to include convincing "culturally right-wing" red-state/county Americans that Left politics can improve their material conditions.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:18 PM on June 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:18 PM on June 23, 2017 [6 favorites]
And strategically, I'm fine ceding guns in exchange for a growing understanding about genuine socialist Left economic goals.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:19 PM on June 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:19 PM on June 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
I do not look forward to the California-centered metafilter discussion of this topic. southerners and class issues? together? naw-ah
Well, brace yourself, because this is that discussion. It's a national organization, not a Southern one. There are several chapters in California.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:11 PM on June 23, 2017
Well, brace yourself, because this is that discussion. It's a national organization, not a Southern one. There are several chapters in California.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:11 PM on June 23, 2017
I think it's worth remembering that MetaFilter is on the internet and has a lot more people posting on it than just Californians. The disdain for gun-owning survivalists is as much coming from every other developed country as it is from California.
Anyway, good on these guys. They're doing the work, out where people are, and that's far more impactful to real people who need help and allies. I'm not too bothered about their particular approach. A healthy and viable progressive movement needs to have a place for people with potentially shitty attitudes to get exposed to people who are definitely part of their tribe but are more aware of systems of oppression. Many of these people are too deep in the hole to see, say, Black Lives Matter as allies fighting for the same cause, but they will see a white Appalachian fighting against poverty and white supremacy as part of their tribe. They can still take an intersectional approach, and that'll give these people a ladder to see that we're all fighting the same fight, in the end.
posted by Merus at 8:12 PM on June 23, 2017 [14 favorites]
Anyway, good on these guys. They're doing the work, out where people are, and that's far more impactful to real people who need help and allies. I'm not too bothered about their particular approach. A healthy and viable progressive movement needs to have a place for people with potentially shitty attitudes to get exposed to people who are definitely part of their tribe but are more aware of systems of oppression. Many of these people are too deep in the hole to see, say, Black Lives Matter as allies fighting for the same cause, but they will see a white Appalachian fighting against poverty and white supremacy as part of their tribe. They can still take an intersectional approach, and that'll give these people a ladder to see that we're all fighting the same fight, in the end.
posted by Merus at 8:12 PM on June 23, 2017 [14 favorites]
Guns are a big problem in the US, but they're not the biggest problem.
posted by rhizome at 9:10 PM on June 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 9:10 PM on June 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think anyone who is confused by this needs to go look up the DUP and their recent forays into mattering outside Northern Ireland. Then trace the anit-elitist, anti-government, anti-science, anti-women, fundamentalist beliefs through the past few centuries of US history. At the end of it if you don't understand the deep loathing most mainstream Catholics have for Paul Ryan and the scorn he gets for touting his Irish roots then keep reading. If you don't understand why working class east coast people voted for Trump? keep reading. There is a lesson there and it's relevant to this story.
posted by fshgrl at 11:54 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by fshgrl at 11:54 PM on June 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
If I moved back to the sticks I would probably get back into shooting because it's a great way to relate to the neighbors.
i live in the sticks and have never once felt a need to shoot the neighbors, just sayin
posted by flabdablet at 6:34 AM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
i live in the sticks and have never once felt a need to shoot the neighbors, just sayin
posted by flabdablet at 6:34 AM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Not that fighting against white supremacists isn't worthwhile, but they're already quite marginalized and disorganized in my part of the world
You live in a country that had Stephen Harper, a multi-term leader who collaborated with Nazis in the 90s, and you have a chapter of the Soldiers of Odin your nearest urban centre, so think again.
posted by mobunited at 10:03 AM on June 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
You live in a country that had Stephen Harper, a multi-term leader who collaborated with Nazis in the 90s, and you have a chapter of the Soldiers of Odin your nearest urban centre, so think again.
posted by mobunited at 10:03 AM on June 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
If anarchists are unhappy with RR… who cares. Didn't we stop fucking listening to Anarchists after the Occupy debacle?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:31 AM on June 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:31 AM on June 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
i live in the sticks and have never once felt a need to shoot the neighbors, just sayin
you havent truly bonded in neighborliness until youve pumped rounds into an old dead appliance together imho
tbh the last time i went shooting it was actual targets and up at an old quarry but the extremely appealing image of going vending machine huntin' with Mr. W- is A++
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 3:34 PM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
you havent truly bonded in neighborliness until youve pumped rounds into an old dead appliance together imho
tbh the last time i went shooting it was actual targets and up at an old quarry but the extremely appealing image of going vending machine huntin' with Mr. W- is A++
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 3:34 PM on June 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
If anarchists are unhappy with RR… who cares.
The great thing about Anarchism is that it's pretty easy to say that Anarchist News's views don't represent all of us.
I think VT at least serves as a counterexample, showing that hunting/sporting gun culture and leftism aren't intrinsically in opposition, even in the USA.
This has also been my Vermont experience.
posted by jessamyn at 3:50 PM on June 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
The great thing about Anarchism is that it's pretty easy to say that Anarchist News's views don't represent all of us.
I think VT at least serves as a counterexample, showing that hunting/sporting gun culture and leftism aren't intrinsically in opposition, even in the USA.
This has also been my Vermont experience.
posted by jessamyn at 3:50 PM on June 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
I have a friend on Twitter who's always talking about the negative attitudes folks end to bring toward the rural South. Consider me all in favor of an organization like this, a little less condescension from folks here would be appreciated :)
posted by Alensin at 3:54 PM on June 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Alensin at 3:54 PM on June 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. This is getting pretty far afield and retreading territory already covered extensively in other politics threads.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:52 PM on June 24, 2017
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:52 PM on June 24, 2017
> And strategically, I'm fine ceding guns in exchange for a growing understanding about genuine socialist Left economic goals.
Ceding guns as an issue nationally? No. Giving pro-gun leftist types living in these communities free rein to work with their neighbors on dialing back bigotry and increasing support for a more generous safety net? Yeah, I'm good with that.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:47 PM on June 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ceding guns as an issue nationally? No. Giving pro-gun leftist types living in these communities free rein to work with their neighbors on dialing back bigotry and increasing support for a more generous safety net? Yeah, I'm good with that.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:47 PM on June 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
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