Gibson Guitars on the brink of bankruptcy
February 28, 2018 7:29 AM Subscribe
Moody's downgrades Gibson's bonds to Caa3. Is the 100+ year-old guitar company falling apart?
Gibson closes Memphis plant.
Their chief CFO, Bill Lawrence, left just months before their massive debts are supposed to come due. People sure don't like working there anymore [Gawker].
The CEO blames the guitar stores, especially in this Billboard interview. Is it all his fault? The Nashville Post speculated that he's on his way out [this is probably where to start].
Maybe people just aren't buying enough guitars [WaPo]?
After massive attempts at diversification, including the acquisition of Philips and TEAC, and a series of unpopular decisions/lines (they killed Cakewalk!), did they just stretch themselves too thin?
Or is is just that their employees hate them, and their customers think they're crap? They sure ain't cheap . . .
Gibson closes Memphis plant.
Their chief CFO, Bill Lawrence, left just months before their massive debts are supposed to come due. People sure don't like working there anymore [Gawker].
The CEO blames the guitar stores, especially in this Billboard interview. Is it all his fault? The Nashville Post speculated that he's on his way out [this is probably where to start].
Maybe people just aren't buying enough guitars [WaPo]?
After massive attempts at diversification, including the acquisition of Philips and TEAC, and a series of unpopular decisions/lines (they killed Cakewalk!), did they just stretch themselves too thin?
Or is is just that their employees hate them, and their customers think they're crap? They sure ain't cheap . . .
Maybe it's due to the decline of pornography districts.
posted by thelonius at 7:37 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by thelonius at 7:37 AM on February 28, 2018
srsly, the anti-Gibson buzz I have heard is that they jacked up the prices of the guitars, in an effort to remake themselves as a "lifestyle brand" like Harley-Davidson, which I guess means they were planning to mostly sell over-priced midlife crisis guitars to dentists and finance guys, at the same time as they let quality slip.
posted by thelonius at 7:41 AM on February 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 7:41 AM on February 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
A normal merchant would hear a cash register going off in their head! This kid looked totally confused, said he needed to get something from the stockroom first, and never came back. That guy waited ten minutes before finally leaving.
It's like we replaced trained enthusiasts/sales people with people who weren't being paid enough to care. Or something.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:41 AM on February 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
It's like we replaced trained enthusiasts/sales people with people who weren't being paid enough to care. Or something.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:41 AM on February 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
From a few days ago: Rick Beato and a couple of guests spend 40 minutes talking about the decline of Gibson.
posted by mubba at 7:49 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by mubba at 7:49 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Clarification: Gibson bought Philips Audio. Other divisions of the giant Dutch company were unaffected.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:06 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:06 AM on February 28, 2018
I actually think the CEO is correct about guitar stores. I love guitars but I haven't been to one in years because of how awful they are. Half the guitars are out of tune, the sales associates stare at browsers like they are criminals and not worthy to even touch the merchandise, the guitars don't have straps but also don't have any places to sit, and they constantly try to upsell things like Monster cables.
I'd generally rather go to a car dealership than a guitar store on the scale of lousy retail experiences.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:10 AM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'd generally rather go to a car dealership than a guitar store on the scale of lousy retail experiences.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:10 AM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I honestly suspect the "lifestyle brand" direction will accelerate after the inevitable bankruptcy and restructuring. Gibson makes beautiful, classic guitars, at least at the top of the line. Fetishists will continue to covet them, and they'll still be able to sell them. Stop making the ridiculous robot guitars and fiber nonsense, stick to the classic models, charge just a touch less than they are now, and they'll sell.
I play a 2004 Gibson SG. It looks, plays, and sounds great. I wanted a Stratocaster to complement it and went to my local music store to play them. I played every Strat in the store at every price level, from $300 Squiers to $2000 American-made models. Not one of them played or felt as good as the SG. I wound up with a Mexican-made model that sounds great, and does the job, but just doesn't feel good to play. A good Gibson is a great instrument.
But I do agree that part of the problem with the guitar market is the retail. I wouldn't buy a guitar that cost more than $250 or so without playing it, and music stores are horrible places, generally. The local I shopped at for the Strat is the exception -- they let me pull anything off the wall and play it, had plenty of stools and cables available, and I spent a couple of hours going back and forth before ultimately spending only $600 or so. Guitar Center is really unpleasant to shop at.
And, of course, like the WaPo notes, "kids these days" don't want to play guitar. They don't have guitar heroes. When was the last time anybody even saw Taylor Swift with a guitar? The Chinese mail-order market selling $200 guitars meets the low-end demand, and the used market can probably sustain the higher-end demand, so what do you do when you're Gibson and want to sell $1000+ American-made guitars? I don't really know.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:21 AM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I play a 2004 Gibson SG. It looks, plays, and sounds great. I wanted a Stratocaster to complement it and went to my local music store to play them. I played every Strat in the store at every price level, from $300 Squiers to $2000 American-made models. Not one of them played or felt as good as the SG. I wound up with a Mexican-made model that sounds great, and does the job, but just doesn't feel good to play. A good Gibson is a great instrument.
But I do agree that part of the problem with the guitar market is the retail. I wouldn't buy a guitar that cost more than $250 or so without playing it, and music stores are horrible places, generally. The local I shopped at for the Strat is the exception -- they let me pull anything off the wall and play it, had plenty of stools and cables available, and I spent a couple of hours going back and forth before ultimately spending only $600 or so. Guitar Center is really unpleasant to shop at.
And, of course, like the WaPo notes, "kids these days" don't want to play guitar. They don't have guitar heroes. When was the last time anybody even saw Taylor Swift with a guitar? The Chinese mail-order market selling $200 guitars meets the low-end demand, and the used market can probably sustain the higher-end demand, so what do you do when you're Gibson and want to sell $1000+ American-made guitars? I don't really know.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:21 AM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
The conventional wisdom from the consumer's end seems to be that it's a mixture of poor quality control, high prices and wacky innovations like robotic tuners that don't go down well with the target audience of rich buyers nostalgic for the days of rock'n'roll, ie the 1950s-1970s.
I'd quite like a J45 but everyone says that only 1 in 10 sounds particularly good, and they're unbelievably expensive for what they are.
posted by Mocata at 8:24 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd quite like a J45 but everyone says that only 1 in 10 sounds particularly good, and they're unbelievably expensive for what they are.
posted by Mocata at 8:24 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Recently Gibson has been sending lawyers’ letters to guitar builders who have made guitars that have Les Paul, Explorer and Flying Vee shapes. The threats demand royalties, sometimes in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, for any guitars they had already made, and immediate cease-and-desist of any future work.
It’s a desperate ploy for cash that, as Gibson continues sinking, could drag down a lot of independent businesses with them.
If that’s not absurd enough, Gibson is also suing anybody making legitimately-licensed images of things that are accessorized with things that look like Les Pauls, a strategy that seems maximally misinformed about the fan/creator relationship.
posted by ardgedee at 8:31 AM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
It’s a desperate ploy for cash that, as Gibson continues sinking, could drag down a lot of independent businesses with them.
If that’s not absurd enough, Gibson is also suing anybody making legitimately-licensed images of things that are accessorized with things that look like Les Pauls, a strategy that seems maximally misinformed about the fan/creator relationship.
posted by ardgedee at 8:31 AM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I guess Pete Townshend doesn't have the upper body strength he once did, but he still finds a way.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:35 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:35 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Gibson has been making shitty guitars aimed at someone who buys a one like they would buy an end table or a lamp. Almost everyone I know claimed quality on the past 7-10 years was easily matched by ESP/Epiphone/Fender guitars that cost one third to half. Unless someone had a crave for a "true" Les Paul or Flying V, there was little reason to buy an actual Gibson.
Also, funny he mentions the decline of music stores, because, well, the one where I purchased my guitar 10 years ago didn't store them. Neither where I've bought my keyboard. Of the 5 stores I occasionally visited, only one had Gibson stock, and it was the store more likely to be visited by people who were not on a budget (hey, the store is the opposite side of the road from the freakin' Ferrari stand).
At this point, it will be either bought by vultures who are less interested in guitar making but on milking the brand, or someone like Fender or Yamaha sweep in.
posted by lmfsilva at 8:41 AM on February 28, 2018
Also, funny he mentions the decline of music stores, because, well, the one where I purchased my guitar 10 years ago didn't store them. Neither where I've bought my keyboard. Of the 5 stores I occasionally visited, only one had Gibson stock, and it was the store more likely to be visited by people who were not on a budget (hey, the store is the opposite side of the road from the freakin' Ferrari stand).
At this point, it will be either bought by vultures who are less interested in guitar making but on milking the brand, or someone like Fender or Yamaha sweep in.
posted by lmfsilva at 8:41 AM on February 28, 2018
It's been over a decade since I worked in an independent guitar store, but I recall we got rid of both Gibson and Fender guitars because they demanded we stock certain quotas of certain models, meet certain sales targets, and keep other brands out of our store. We swapped Fender for G&L and did better business than we ever did before. More sales and better margins.
Gibsons are overpriced nostalgia pieces, but I'm guessing this is death by incompetence in the C-suite.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:46 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Gibsons are overpriced nostalgia pieces, but I'm guessing this is death by incompetence in the C-suite.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:46 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
When was the last time anybody even saw Taylor Swift with a guitar?
Taylor Swift plays guitar in I guess the same way that Elvis plays guitar - it's probably 50% a prop, but she carries one around and knows how to strum.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:52 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Taylor Swift plays guitar in I guess the same way that Elvis plays guitar - it's probably 50% a prop, but she carries one around and knows how to strum.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:52 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Elvis liked to play bass when hanging in the jungle room
posted by thelonius at 8:55 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 8:55 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I shoud add that I bought a stock Fender American Standard Jazz bass about 3 years ago, from Sweetwater, and it's wonderful. What if it hadn't been? I could have returned it.
posted by thelonius at 8:56 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 8:56 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
No, she can totally play, and used to in her music videos. But since the full-on pop swerve, I don't know that I've seen her with a guitar. The point is that she's specifically cited as driving girls to play the guitar, but I'm not sure that's necessarily true anymore.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:57 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by uncleozzy at 8:57 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Here's Taylor Swift playing electric guitar in 2016, and it's a Fender, in fact a Johnny Marr Jaguar, which shows that Ms. Swift has pretty good taste in guitars.
posted by Mocata at 9:14 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 9:14 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Back in the day, Gibson bought and then murdered my favorite source for music software, Opcode. Nope. I won't miss them at all. Good riddance.
posted by njohnson23 at 9:14 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by njohnson23 at 9:14 AM on February 28, 2018
Fender has been making great guitars. They're not Gibsons, but a Fender is never going to feel like a Gibson. I picked up a 50s retro vibe Strat a couple of years back and have loved it — plays like a dream, has all the nice modern hardware stuff a practical player could desire, vintage feel and sound, totally reasonable sticker price.
posted by billjings at 9:16 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by billjings at 9:16 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
stock Fender American Standard Jazz bass
Agreed. Although Fender has had its share of quality issues too, I have played a number of excellent Fender basses over the years. Even at the Squier range the actual bodies/necks/frets/paint all seem tolerable, the hardware's just cheap.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:25 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Agreed. Although Fender has had its share of quality issues too, I have played a number of excellent Fender basses over the years. Even at the Squier range the actual bodies/necks/frets/paint all seem tolerable, the hardware's just cheap.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:25 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I have such lust for a real Fender P-Bass, but I can't justify upgrading from my totally-functional, sounds-fine $129 SX right now.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:28 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by uncleozzy at 9:28 AM on February 28, 2018
I can testify that the last Epiphone I played felt better than the last Gibson I played.
Gibson still owns Epiphone, though, don't they? I've seen all the complaints about the Gibson-branded instruments too but I'd guess actually making guitars is still the strong side of their business compared to all the other stuff they've gotten into.
posted by atoxyl at 9:43 AM on February 28, 2018
Gibson still owns Epiphone, though, don't they? I've seen all the complaints about the Gibson-branded instruments too but I'd guess actually making guitars is still the strong side of their business compared to all the other stuff they've gotten into.
posted by atoxyl at 9:43 AM on February 28, 2018
I've got an Epiphone and it's a pretty well made guitar for the price. But the next time I buy it's going to be a Heritage, which is the company started in the old Gibson factory in Michigan and many of the employees were employed by Gibson back in the day. And I hear their product is much better than what Gibson has been putting out and for substantially less.
posted by Ber at 9:52 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by Ber at 9:52 AM on February 28, 2018
Their chief CFO, Bill Lawrence, left just months before their massive debts are supposed to come due.
Ctrl-F "private equity"
0 results found.
Huh. How about that. It's just regular corporate incompetence.
posted by Talez at 10:00 AM on February 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Ctrl-F "private equity"
0 results found.
Huh. How about that. It's just regular corporate incompetence.
posted by Talez at 10:00 AM on February 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Although Fender has had its share of quality issues too, I have played a number of excellent Fender basses over the years. Even at the Squier range the actual bodies/necks/frets/paint all seem tolerable, the hardware's just cheap.
Yeah, I bought a Mexican Fender P-Bass with a P/J pickup combo 15 years ago thinking I'd upgrade in a few years, but it sounds awesome and plays wonderfully. Who needs the American model?
Gimme a SansAmp bass driver and that bass and turn me loose.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:03 AM on February 28, 2018
Yeah, I bought a Mexican Fender P-Bass with a P/J pickup combo 15 years ago thinking I'd upgrade in a few years, but it sounds awesome and plays wonderfully. Who needs the American model?
Gimme a SansAmp bass driver and that bass and turn me loose.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:03 AM on February 28, 2018
Gibson still owns Epiphone, though, don't they?
Indeed. But they're about a third the price and apparently either haven't suffered the same massive inconsistencies in quality as the flagship line, or people are more willing to overlook them since the price point is less boutique. The ones I've played lately have been nice guitars.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:04 AM on February 28, 2018
Indeed. But they're about a third the price and apparently either haven't suffered the same massive inconsistencies in quality as the flagship line, or people are more willing to overlook them since the price point is less boutique. The ones I've played lately have been nice guitars.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:04 AM on February 28, 2018
Fender has been making great guitars. They're not Gibsons, but a Fender is never going to feel like a Gibson. I picked up a 50s retro vibe Strat a couple of years back and have loved it — plays like a dream, has all the nice modern hardware stuff a practical player could desire, vintage feel and sound, totally reasonable sticker price.
I feel you. In the early aughts I picked up a Fender Highway 1 Strat. Highway 1 was basically Fender's "get a US-made Strat (or Tele) for under a grand," which I did. And that was in Canadian dollars, tax in, new. I agree that "US made" isn't necessarily a meaningful proxy for build quality, but the batch of early Highway 1s I sat down and played when I bought mine all felt great.
I've not been following the electric guitar market super closely the last few years because I've got one that suits me just fine, but my understanding is that Gibson rather belatedly made an effort to appeal to the same market the Highway 1 line does (i.e., people like me who don't care that there's a single-coat finish that dings super easily and no fancy appointments, I just want it to play well, and don't want to spend $3,000 on an electric) with their "Faded" series. But again, they were kinda late to the game with that line.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:06 AM on February 28, 2018
I feel you. In the early aughts I picked up a Fender Highway 1 Strat. Highway 1 was basically Fender's "get a US-made Strat (or Tele) for under a grand," which I did. And that was in Canadian dollars, tax in, new. I agree that "US made" isn't necessarily a meaningful proxy for build quality, but the batch of early Highway 1s I sat down and played when I bought mine all felt great.
I've not been following the electric guitar market super closely the last few years because I've got one that suits me just fine, but my understanding is that Gibson rather belatedly made an effort to appeal to the same market the Highway 1 line does (i.e., people like me who don't care that there's a single-coat finish that dings super easily and no fancy appointments, I just want it to play well, and don't want to spend $3,000 on an electric) with their "Faded" series. But again, they were kinda late to the game with that line.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:06 AM on February 28, 2018
Back in 2012, Gibson was fined $350,000 and had to surrender $250,000 of exotic fingerboard wood. The wood was illegally sourced from Madagascar and India by illegal logging.
CEO Juszkiewicz became the darling of Tea Party right wingers grousing about government thugs and environmentalists and Obama.
posted by JackFlash at 10:20 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
CEO Juszkiewicz became the darling of Tea Party right wingers grousing about government thugs and environmentalists and Obama.
posted by JackFlash at 10:20 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Gimme a SansAmp bass driver and that bass
Oh man, I picked up a ParaDriver a couple of years ago (more-or-less a BassDriver with sweepable mids), and the thing is an absolute beast.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:01 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh man, I picked up a ParaDriver a couple of years ago (more-or-less a BassDriver with sweepable mids), and the thing is an absolute beast.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:01 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of flabbergasted that they introduced a guitar model with pictures showing an obvious chip in the finish. I don't think that they can pin that one on Guitar Center.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:35 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:35 AM on February 28, 2018
Let me put in a plug for Heritage as well. Quality and price point is better than Gibson. If you want a Gibson, check CL or Reverb.com for one > 15 yrs old.
[Also, the Chinese have caught up - like they will. I have a MIC Epiphone ES 335 clone and a MIC Recording King acoustic, each as fine a guitar as I have owned in 50+ years of playing. The prices were 1/5 to 1/10 of the Gibson originals.]
posted by sudogeek at 11:40 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
[Also, the Chinese have caught up - like they will. I have a MIC Epiphone ES 335 clone and a MIC Recording King acoustic, each as fine a guitar as I have owned in 50+ years of playing. The prices were 1/5 to 1/10 of the Gibson originals.]
posted by sudogeek at 11:40 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
CEO Juszkiewicz became the darling of Tea Party right wingers grousing about government thugs and environmentalists and Obama.
That's what's going on! I was reading through the comments on one of those links and suddenly there was a copypasted Heritage foundation rant that seemed completely out-of-context.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:42 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's what's going on! I was reading through the comments on one of those links and suddenly there was a copypasted Heritage foundation rant that seemed completely out-of-context.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:42 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Guitar Center is really unpleasant to shop at.
I don't think I've set foot in a Guitar Center more than a handful of times since the time I tried to buy a ten-dollar guitar stand--with cash, even!--and the Fieri-spawn at the register just could not get that I didn't need him to enter my name, address, credit rating, current medications, and inseam measurement into the database. I associate that sort of intrusive data collection with a desperate, flailing company in its last throes. How they've managed to stay in business is beyond me.
posted by MrBadExample at 11:47 AM on February 28, 2018
I don't think I've set foot in a Guitar Center more than a handful of times since the time I tried to buy a ten-dollar guitar stand--with cash, even!--and the Fieri-spawn at the register just could not get that I didn't need him to enter my name, address, credit rating, current medications, and inseam measurement into the database. I associate that sort of intrusive data collection with a desperate, flailing company in its last throes. How they've managed to stay in business is beyond me.
posted by MrBadExample at 11:47 AM on February 28, 2018
Guitar Center is really unpleasant to shop at.
The last time I went to one, I was pleasantly surprised. The staff were helpful and also went away when I said I just wanted to look around. I went to plonk on the acoustic guitars, and the guy in that part was nice too. I don't know if that particular store is just well-run or what.
posted by thelonius at 12:27 PM on February 28, 2018
The last time I went to one, I was pleasantly surprised. The staff were helpful and also went away when I said I just wanted to look around. I went to plonk on the acoustic guitars, and the guy in that part was nice too. I don't know if that particular store is just well-run or what.
posted by thelonius at 12:27 PM on February 28, 2018
...and they didn't Radio-Shack me at the register when I bought some strings
posted by thelonius at 12:30 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 12:30 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
FWIW: When I went Cream City Music in Milwaukee (most definitely not Guitar Center) to upgrade from my beater first guitar to a slightly nicer one, the old guys steered me away Gibson.
FWIW: I've lived in Nashville a couple years now and I've now met two people who work at the Gibson factory who have nothing but bad things to say about company culture and their local management, especially with regards to quality control. Given the premium that is paid for US versus Mexican/Chinese/Korean made guitars is supposedly justified in terms of quality control, I've been waiting for an article like the Nashville Post link for months now.
posted by midmarch snowman at 12:54 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
FWIW: I've lived in Nashville a couple years now and I've now met two people who work at the Gibson factory who have nothing but bad things to say about company culture and their local management, especially with regards to quality control. Given the premium that is paid for US versus Mexican/Chinese/Korean made guitars is supposedly justified in terms of quality control, I've been waiting for an article like the Nashville Post link for months now.
posted by midmarch snowman at 12:54 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Allow me to echo the call for Heritage. My H-575 is better than any of the ES-175s I looked at back in the 90s and cost me all of $900 with HSC.
posted by tommasz at 12:58 PM on February 28, 2018
posted by tommasz at 12:58 PM on February 28, 2018
I'm kind of flabbergasted that they introduced a guitar model with pictures showing an obvious chip in the finish. I don't think that they can pin that one on Guitar Center.
Heh. Given what people will fork out for "Relic" models that might be a selling point for some folks.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:33 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Heh. Given what people will fork out for "Relic" models that might be a selling point for some folks.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:33 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
People still buy plenty of guitars. Gibson has been banking on their name for a long time, and it's just not something people connect with any more.
On the one hand, I understand the fascination with Les Pauls. They look cool. Jimmy Page, Slash, Joe Perry, Pete Townsend, lots of notable rock stars played Pauls. Same thing with the SG. Angus Young made them look cool. Tony Iommi. Frank Zappa. Derek Trucks. On the other hand, I'm 42. That's a bunch of people that young guitar buyers mostly don't know or really care much about any more.
To the extent that guitar heroes are even a thing today, what do they play? Jack White, Dan Auerbach? Thrift store guitars from the 60's. Matt Bellamy? Mansons. Jonny Greenwood and Ed O'Brien? Fenders. Zacky Vengance and Synyster Gates? Schecters. Even some of the old guys have signature models from people who aren't Fender or Gibson.
The markup for the name on the headstock puts Gibsons out of the range of a lot of people, because they don't care enough about that name to pony up the extra dough. Epiphone and Schecter and Ibanez and ESP have been more than happy to step in and serve them. I love my Schecter. The neck feels much better than any Paul or SG I've ever played, and it's not nearly as heavy, and it sounds just dandy.
posted by curiousgene at 1:34 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
On the one hand, I understand the fascination with Les Pauls. They look cool. Jimmy Page, Slash, Joe Perry, Pete Townsend, lots of notable rock stars played Pauls. Same thing with the SG. Angus Young made them look cool. Tony Iommi. Frank Zappa. Derek Trucks. On the other hand, I'm 42. That's a bunch of people that young guitar buyers mostly don't know or really care much about any more.
To the extent that guitar heroes are even a thing today, what do they play? Jack White, Dan Auerbach? Thrift store guitars from the 60's. Matt Bellamy? Mansons. Jonny Greenwood and Ed O'Brien? Fenders. Zacky Vengance and Synyster Gates? Schecters. Even some of the old guys have signature models from people who aren't Fender or Gibson.
The markup for the name on the headstock puts Gibsons out of the range of a lot of people, because they don't care enough about that name to pony up the extra dough. Epiphone and Schecter and Ibanez and ESP have been more than happy to step in and serve them. I love my Schecter. The neck feels much better than any Paul or SG I've ever played, and it's not nearly as heavy, and it sounds just dandy.
posted by curiousgene at 1:34 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Angus Young made them look cool.
He also made them look relatively large. The first time I walked into a guitar store as a young teenager and saw one that wasn't slung around Angus Young I was like "Huh. That's a smaller guitar than I thought it was."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:36 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
He also made them look relatively large. The first time I walked into a guitar store as a young teenager and saw one that wasn't slung around Angus Young I was like "Huh. That's a smaller guitar than I thought it was."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:36 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
> To the extent that guitar heroes are even a thing today, what do they play? Jack White, Dan Auerbach? Thrift store guitars from the 60's.
There’s no denying the appeal of the funky aesthetics of old obscure guitars, but I’m thinking this is mostly because before these guys had established their sound a generation of dentists and stockbrokers had already driven the prices of their dream Strats and Pauls into the stratosphere, so they had to change their plans.
Of course, now even vintage Silvertones have ridiculous price tags, but enough time has passed for the current generation of teenagers (the few who are into retro things like rock music) to discover under-loved 30 year old guitars from the 80s from the likes of Peavy and Yamaha.
posted by ardgedee at 1:44 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
There’s no denying the appeal of the funky aesthetics of old obscure guitars, but I’m thinking this is mostly because before these guys had established their sound a generation of dentists and stockbrokers had already driven the prices of their dream Strats and Pauls into the stratosphere, so they had to change their plans.
Of course, now even vintage Silvertones have ridiculous price tags, but enough time has passed for the current generation of teenagers (the few who are into retro things like rock music) to discover under-loved 30 year old guitars from the 80s from the likes of Peavy and Yamaha.
posted by ardgedee at 1:44 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Jimmy Page, Slash, Joe Perry, Pete Townsend. Apropos of nothing, it's funny to look at these dudes through 2018 eyes; "cool" isn't the first thing that pops into my head . . .
posted by aspersioncast at 2:02 PM on February 28, 2018
posted by aspersioncast at 2:02 PM on February 28, 2018
I haven't dared to peek into the banjo forums to see what the noise is around Gibson. For bluegrass banjo (like bluegrass mandolin) there is one instrument that makes THE sound, and Gibson pretty much stopped making it around 1929. (Some claim they made "prewar" instruments up until 1947, which gives you a good idea of a typical banjo nut's grasp on reality). Since a bluegrass banjo is a loose assembly of chunks of metal, there are a million hucksters trying to get people to part with extra cash to make yours sound more "authentic". Gibson appear to have bowed out of the new banjo market after getting their ass beat by much more reliable and cheaper instruments from Deering and Gold Tone. The $4500 Gibson "Earl Scruggs Standard" was quite a decent $2500 luthier-made banjo, except for the 80% markup for the Gibson inlays.
posted by scruss at 2:12 PM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by scruss at 2:12 PM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Apropos of nothing, it's funny to look at these dudes through 2018 eyes; "cool" isn't the first thing that pops into my head
Except that it really is apropos. I think a big part of Gibson's ability to sell their guitars at a premium was knowing that it was the same guitar that Jimmy Page played.
Eventually, though, enough people realize that all the Les Pauls in the world can't write a good song, and a good enough song will sound good on a Silvertone that you dug out of the attic, or the lefty Jaguar you found at the pawn shop.
posted by curiousgene at 2:19 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Except that it really is apropos. I think a big part of Gibson's ability to sell their guitars at a premium was knowing that it was the same guitar that Jimmy Page played.
Eventually, though, enough people realize that all the Les Pauls in the world can't write a good song, and a good enough song will sound good on a Silvertone that you dug out of the attic, or the lefty Jaguar you found at the pawn shop.
posted by curiousgene at 2:19 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
People still buy plenty of guitars. Gibson has been banking on their name for a long time, and it's just not something people connect with any more.
The interesting part is that Fender's name seems to have held up better. But they were never as boutique-y. A new LP "standard" is $3000. $3000 will get you your pick of... a lot of electric guitars.
posted by atoxyl at 3:20 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
The interesting part is that Fender's name seems to have held up better. But they were never as boutique-y. A new LP "standard" is $3000. $3000 will get you your pick of... a lot of electric guitars.
posted by atoxyl at 3:20 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’m probably in Gibson’s prime demographic, middle-aged white guy who likes rock and plays a [very] little guitar. Let me tell you, though, my $265-off-Reverb Ibanez, man, I love that guitar. I wouldn’t have more fun if I spent 10 times that on an SG.
posted by wintermind at 3:38 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by wintermind at 3:38 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I worked at the Gibson Memphis plant several years ago. They treated us like garbage because TN has terrible labor laws, and shipped subpar stuff to meet a quota rather than fix the production issues that had us working 55-60 hours a week.
They're great guitars when they're set up well and made with care, but how many $6000 metallic-finish BB King Lucille's do we need in the world? I've never understood where the level of demand comes from to justify how many very fancy Gibsons are made every year.
(...a great SG is hard to beat, though)
posted by epilnivek at 5:46 PM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
They're great guitars when they're set up well and made with care, but how many $6000 metallic-finish BB King Lucille's do we need in the world? I've never understood where the level of demand comes from to justify how many very fancy Gibsons are made every year.
(...a great SG is hard to beat, though)
posted by epilnivek at 5:46 PM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I've got an Epiphone and it's a pretty well made guitar for the price. But the next time I buy it's going to be a Heritage, which is the company started in the old Gibson factory in Michigan and many of the employees were employed by Gibson back in the day.
unfortunately just yesterday, heritage just fired 10 of their craftspeople and 4 more quit in protest - basically, they're going automated and corporate and rolling stone is partnering with them to make it a tourist destination - because nothing says tourism more than the long procession of empty factories and emptier lots on the north side of town - hey, you can even see where they used to make checker cabs!
my favorite guitar was a 68 gibson es335, which i still play - but in the last few years of guitar shopping i have bought no gibsons, as they were crappy and i couldn't afford them and no epiphones as i haven't played any that felt like a real good ones and some that were real pieces of crap - no, it's been squiers, and strat copies and offbrand stuff
at one time i really wanted an epiphone sg but couldn't find a good one and ran across a two humbucker squier telecaster deluxe with coil splitting that was as good and more - even has a square headstock like gibson
everytime i play a les paul, even if it's ok, i find myself wanting to hear my 335 instead - they just don't move me
posted by pyramid termite at 5:49 PM on February 28, 2018
unfortunately just yesterday, heritage just fired 10 of their craftspeople and 4 more quit in protest - basically, they're going automated and corporate and rolling stone is partnering with them to make it a tourist destination - because nothing says tourism more than the long procession of empty factories and emptier lots on the north side of town - hey, you can even see where they used to make checker cabs!
my favorite guitar was a 68 gibson es335, which i still play - but in the last few years of guitar shopping i have bought no gibsons, as they were crappy and i couldn't afford them and no epiphones as i haven't played any that felt like a real good ones and some that were real pieces of crap - no, it's been squiers, and strat copies and offbrand stuff
at one time i really wanted an epiphone sg but couldn't find a good one and ran across a two humbucker squier telecaster deluxe with coil splitting that was as good and more - even has a square headstock like gibson
everytime i play a les paul, even if it's ok, i find myself wanting to hear my 335 instead - they just don't move me
posted by pyramid termite at 5:49 PM on February 28, 2018
I’m probably in Gibson’s prime demographic, middle-aged white guy who likes rock and plays a [very] little guitar. Let me tell you, though, my $265-off-Reverb Ibanez, man, I love that guitar. I wouldn’t have more fun if I spent 10 times that on an SG.
To be fair, you can get a perfectly good Epiphone SG for $265 off Reverb. But when I went looking for something vaguely SG-like a few months ago I ended up with one of these Yamahas - also $250 used - and by my admittedly low standard that was another pretty solid choice.
posted by atoxyl at 6:11 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
To be fair, you can get a perfectly good Epiphone SG for $265 off Reverb. But when I went looking for something vaguely SG-like a few months ago I ended up with one of these Yamahas - also $250 used - and by my admittedly low standard that was another pretty solid choice.
posted by atoxyl at 6:11 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
A friend of mine has an Epi G-400 or whatever the SG is called. We played together a few years ago and I got to play his and mine back to back. Absolutely no comparison. I say that as somebody who thinks cheap stuff is almost always as good as “the real thing.” Not in this case.
(And to be clear, my SG is the $1000-at-the-time standard model; nothing fancy, just nice hot, good-sounding pickups and the best neck I’ve ever played on.)
posted by uncleozzy at 6:15 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
(And to be clear, my SG is the $1000-at-the-time standard model; nothing fancy, just nice hot, good-sounding pickups and the best neck I’ve ever played on.)
posted by uncleozzy at 6:15 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
→ discover under-loved 30 year old guitars from the 80s from the likes of Peavy and Yamaha.
I could have sworn I read something here about a whole genre of music dedicated to and played on the Yamaha Pacifica.
posted by scruss at 8:14 PM on February 28, 2018
I could have sworn I read something here about a whole genre of music dedicated to and played on the Yamaha Pacifica.
posted by scruss at 8:14 PM on February 28, 2018
I made the mistake of getting one of the more recent Les Pauls. It was a “Modern” so it cost me about $1200. I loved the feel of the neck, and the scale was perfect for my somewhat-small hands... but oof. Those robo-tuners were a /bad/ idea. The concept was decent - quick switching between tuning is cool - but restringing them was an exercise in futility about 70% of the time. Plus they never got as close to pitch as they should.
But the real heartbreak were the pickups. Never in my life have I heard something so inarticulate and muddy. At first I thought it was because I was coming from single-coils, but nope. I played some other humbucker-equipped guitars and it is indeed possible to get some brightness and snap from them if they’re made right. These weren’t. Even with distortion (the best thing to pair with your humbuckers) they just sounded... dull. No matter what strings I used, they just sounded lifeless.
Eventually I had enough. By this point, I’d picked up a ‘65 reissue Jaguar (which is now my baby, even though I really need to get a Mastery Bridge for it), and Fender announced the American Pro line. I’d fallen in love with the Jazzmaster, so I thought I would trade the Les Paul in. I went back to the same Sam Ash that sold me it and... they barely gave me anything. I talked to the guy and he said that none of their Gibson stock was selling, new or used. He threw me a bone and comped me some extra gear and services to make up the difference.
I agree that Fender has had QC issues, and maybe I just lucked out with two fairly high-end models. But both of my offsets have been better to play and maintain than the Gibson, hands down. That’s even with the ‘65 Jag’s notoriously fiddly switching and that bridge that was frankly a design mistake.
posted by sigma7 at 8:17 PM on February 28, 2018
But the real heartbreak were the pickups. Never in my life have I heard something so inarticulate and muddy. At first I thought it was because I was coming from single-coils, but nope. I played some other humbucker-equipped guitars and it is indeed possible to get some brightness and snap from them if they’re made right. These weren’t. Even with distortion (the best thing to pair with your humbuckers) they just sounded... dull. No matter what strings I used, they just sounded lifeless.
Eventually I had enough. By this point, I’d picked up a ‘65 reissue Jaguar (which is now my baby, even though I really need to get a Mastery Bridge for it), and Fender announced the American Pro line. I’d fallen in love with the Jazzmaster, so I thought I would trade the Les Paul in. I went back to the same Sam Ash that sold me it and... they barely gave me anything. I talked to the guy and he said that none of their Gibson stock was selling, new or used. He threw me a bone and comped me some extra gear and services to make up the difference.
I agree that Fender has had QC issues, and maybe I just lucked out with two fairly high-end models. But both of my offsets have been better to play and maintain than the Gibson, hands down. That’s even with the ‘65 Jag’s notoriously fiddly switching and that bridge that was frankly a design mistake.
posted by sigma7 at 8:17 PM on February 28, 2018
I was like "Huh. That's a smaller guitar than I thought it was."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 23:36 on February 28 [1 favorite +] [!]
Eponysterical!
posted by Sutekh at 9:20 PM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 23:36 on February 28 [1 favorite +] [!]
Eponysterical!
posted by Sutekh at 9:20 PM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Even at the Squier range the actual bodies/necks/frets/paint all seem tolerable, the hardware's just cheap.
A recent column by a pro Nashville bassist describes finding a $250 Squier to be superior to every other P-bass he tried (altough it did need fret work).
posted by thelonius at 6:23 AM on March 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
A recent column by a pro Nashville bassist describes finding a $250 Squier to be superior to every other P-bass he tried (altough it did need fret work).
posted by thelonius at 6:23 AM on March 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
The concept was decent - quick switching between tuning is cool - but restringing them was an exercise in futility about 70% of the time. Plus they never got as close to pitch as they should.
It seems to me that the obvious application of these is generating new, unexpected tunings. Automated Prepared Guitar, as it were.
But that's not everybody's thing, I guess.
posted by curiousgene at 9:23 AM on March 1, 2018
It seems to me that the obvious application of these is generating new, unexpected tunings. Automated Prepared Guitar, as it were.
But that's not everybody's thing, I guess.
posted by curiousgene at 9:23 AM on March 1, 2018
It seems to me that the obvious application of these is generating new, unexpected tunings. Automated Prepared Guitar, as it were.
I've seen videos of pieces involving on-the-fly retuning with some kind of snap-to-note tuning system - not sure if it was electronic or purely mechanical.
posted by atoxyl at 9:35 AM on March 1, 2018
I've seen videos of pieces involving on-the-fly retuning with some kind of snap-to-note tuning system - not sure if it was electronic or purely mechanical.
posted by atoxyl at 9:35 AM on March 1, 2018
Music store staff tend to be struggling musicians, not people necessarily skilled at sales. That leads to the kind of situation the CEO described, where a slam dunk high spending customer was basically ignored until he walked out. It makes the atmosphere a bit intimidating. I always feel like I’m not qualified to be shopping there because I can’t blast out a heavy metal solo, and I might not buy today, and I’m someone who has played in bands and made records. The upside is that you don’t get a greasy salesdroid trying to push product on you.
I played a Gibson last year at Guitar Center, one of the new models below 500 bucks, and the frets were sticking out of the sides of the fret board. You could injure your left hand playing this right out of the box. I marvel at the kind of US factory that let this guitar out of the door unfinished.
posted by w0mbat at 2:23 PM on March 1, 2018
I played a Gibson last year at Guitar Center, one of the new models below 500 bucks, and the frets were sticking out of the sides of the fret board. You could injure your left hand playing this right out of the box. I marvel at the kind of US factory that let this guitar out of the door unfinished.
posted by w0mbat at 2:23 PM on March 1, 2018
I've only ever played two Gibsons that I would have taken home: a Loar-era F5 mandolin, and a 1940s J45. All the others I've tried have been pretty meh.
(But if you're in the UK and fancy a J45, try Atkins... I've just got one, and they are superb)
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 5:19 AM on March 2, 2018
(But if you're in the UK and fancy a J45, try Atkins... I've just got one, and they are superb)
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 5:19 AM on March 2, 2018
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posted by aspersioncast at 7:35 AM on February 28, 2018