"Have I offended you? Do you find me offensive?"
March 23, 2018 9:59 AM Subscribe
What in God’s Name Happened to Ricky Gervais? A look at the decline of the once great comedian who has gone from creating The Office to having his own David Bowie song to reflexively defending shitposters online.
It turns out he's good at playing an asshole because he's an asshole.
posted by selfnoise at 10:06 AM on March 23, 2018 [100 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 10:06 AM on March 23, 2018 [100 favorites]
He was always kind of a jerk though. For a long time if you wanted to point to the quintessential asshole atheist, well he wasn't at the top of the list- but he was up there. If all your humor is based on rudeness and asshole-ery, well. Inevitable bigotry is inevitable. He always called people "mongs" too, and always refused to stop when people pointed out that was racist/ableist.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:10 AM on March 23, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:10 AM on March 23, 2018 [30 favorites]
I thought the world had realized that Ricky Gervais wasn't just playing a jackass over a decade ago.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:11 AM on March 23, 2018 [26 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 10:11 AM on March 23, 2018 [26 favorites]
Once again, if you have a problem with offense, you don't actually believe in free speech. You want to provoke people, go ahead - just accept that the people you provoke have the right to speak about that provocation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:12 AM on March 23, 2018 [95 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:12 AM on March 23, 2018 [95 favorites]
Also what the fuck is with comedy specials and transphobia? I've lost count of the specials I've turned off because some fuckhead has decided that's what's going to get him the biggest laugh (I say him because it's always a cis het man).
posted by elsietheeel at 10:14 AM on March 23, 2018 [45 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 10:14 AM on March 23, 2018 [45 favorites]
Thanks for this, if only because it lead me to news about Ian McKellen's new broadcast of Paradise Lost on Radio 4.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:16 AM on March 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 10:16 AM on March 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
yeah comedy is pretty much a never-ending shitshow as far as trans women are concerned.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:17 AM on March 23, 2018 [36 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:17 AM on March 23, 2018 [36 favorites]
From the article:
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:19 AM on March 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
Now that Gervais’s latest Netflix special Humanity has landed with a thud, prompting him to melt down over his online critics, it might be time to ask: What went wrong for Britain’s self-appointed bad boy of comedy? Was this inevitable? Are all comedians destined to turn from comic to crank? And was Gervais ever even that funny in the first place?The article says otherwise, but my own answer to that last one is "actually, not really, in my opinion." They invoke The Office, which did make some laugh - but I always found it to be that kind of mean-funny thing, where you point and laugh at freaks and clowns. It didn't matter if he was playing one of the aforementioned clowns and trying to save it by "look, you're laughing at me!" - the comedy was still coming from a place of punching down.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:19 AM on March 23, 2018 [32 favorites]
I think my problem with him is that his offensiveness doesn't have a point to make. It's just one layer of offensiveness with no subtext or thesis and you only find it funny if you agree with the flat offensive point of view he's presenting.
This is a difference between him and Stewart Lee (who I didn't like much until I saw Carpet Remnant World live). Lee flirts with offensiveness but it's done in a way that makes me reflect on my own reaction and reconsider my views.
To a certain degree, but with way less finesse, I feel the same with Frankie Boyle. He however took a bit of a break from public eye after the tide turned against him because he did take things a bit far and I think it was to rework his material. I saw him in Soho doing a practice gig and he's getting there.
Gervais is just offensive and doubling down on it. Not thoughtful, not even provoking. Just stupid and not funny.
posted by like_neon at 10:20 AM on March 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
This is a difference between him and Stewart Lee (who I didn't like much until I saw Carpet Remnant World live). Lee flirts with offensiveness but it's done in a way that makes me reflect on my own reaction and reconsider my views.
To a certain degree, but with way less finesse, I feel the same with Frankie Boyle. He however took a bit of a break from public eye after the tide turned against him because he did take things a bit far and I think it was to rework his material. I saw him in Soho doing a practice gig and he's getting there.
Gervais is just offensive and doubling down on it. Not thoughtful, not even provoking. Just stupid and not funny.
posted by like_neon at 10:20 AM on March 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
Also what the fuck is with comedy specials and transphobia?
It's an "acceptable" form of soft bigotry,and too much of comedy culture is built on soft bigotry.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:21 AM on March 23, 2018 [40 favorites]
It's an "acceptable" form of soft bigotry,and too much of comedy culture is built on soft bigotry.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:21 AM on March 23, 2018 [40 favorites]
Ian McKellen's new broadcast of Paradise Lost on Radio 4.
!
...Simon Russell Beale as Satan
! ! ! !
posted by Iridic at 10:22 AM on March 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
!
...Simon Russell Beale as Satan
! ! ! !
posted by Iridic at 10:22 AM on March 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
Ricky Gervais is definitely into punching down. I've always seen Frankie Boyle as just punching at anything that gets within arm's reach. Always rather liked him but he was definitely going too far and I'm glad to hear he's reworking his stuff.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:24 AM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 10:24 AM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was pretty unaware...I really didn't know that David Brent MEANT all that stuff he said. Yipes.
posted by agregoli at 10:31 AM on March 23, 2018
posted by agregoli at 10:31 AM on March 23, 2018
Once again, if you have a problem with offense, you don't actually believe in free speech. You want to provoke people, go ahead - just accept that the people you provoke have the right to speak about that provocation.
Or arrest you and put you in jail?
I have no problem with legally enforced censoring of incitement to violence and a few other things, but simply being offensive seems better handled by social ostracism.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:32 AM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Or arrest you and put you in jail?
I have no problem with legally enforced censoring of incitement to violence and a few other things, but simply being offensive seems better handled by social ostracism.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:32 AM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I couldn't get 2 minutes into his new stand up special because the tone felt off but I'm glad I didn't make it far enough to hear the transphobia. WTF?!
I had the exact same encounter with his new special. The tone just struck me as garbage and I was rolling my eyes and not really amused with any of his commentary or remarks. There was a time when I was sort of into his comedy but I'm glad I've sort of matured and aged out of that. Fuck that.
posted by Fizz at 10:33 AM on March 23, 2018
I had the exact same encounter with his new special. The tone just struck me as garbage and I was rolling my eyes and not really amused with any of his commentary or remarks. There was a time when I was sort of into his comedy but I'm glad I've sort of matured and aged out of that. Fuck that.
posted by Fizz at 10:33 AM on March 23, 2018
So...he wasn’t having a laugh?
posted by Enemy of Joy at 10:37 AM on March 23, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by Enemy of Joy at 10:37 AM on March 23, 2018 [30 favorites]
Well, he was. The audience, however...
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:40 AM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:40 AM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
I watched 'The Invention of Lying" and really couldn't believe that the premise was --SPOILER--simply that religion and the afterlife was invented just to make people feel less heartbroken at the death of their loved ones. First of all, duh, and second, seriously? we're stomping on a mechanism that helps heartbroken people feel less miserable? Of course I understand that organized religion does a lot more than that, but Jesus H Christ maybe we could choose to address misogny? colonialism? influence peddling? indulgences?
I liked him as the jerk director of the Met in Night at the Museum, though.
posted by turkeybrain at 10:40 AM on March 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
I liked him as the jerk director of the Met in Night at the Museum, though.
posted by turkeybrain at 10:40 AM on March 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
> Once again, if you have a problem with offense, you don't actually believe in free speech. You want to provoke people, go ahead - just accept that the people you provoke have the right to speak about that provocation.
Or arrest you and put you in jail?
I don't think this is NA's argument. I think a better way to phrase it would be: "If you have a problem with others taking offense at what you say, you have confused 'free speech' with 'everyone has to agree with me'."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:43 AM on March 23, 2018 [49 favorites]
Or arrest you and put you in jail?
I don't think this is NA's argument. I think a better way to phrase it would be: "If you have a problem with others taking offense at what you say, you have confused 'free speech' with 'everyone has to agree with me'."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:43 AM on March 23, 2018 [49 favorites]
It's pretty telling that you can write an entire article about what a no-talent asshole Ricky Gervais is and never have to drop An Idiot Abroad reference into the mix to validly make your point. I mean, if you want evidence that Gervais is a no-talent asshole, just watch that show.
posted by NoMich at 10:43 AM on March 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by NoMich at 10:43 AM on March 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
This is a difference between him and Stewart Lee (who I didn't like much until I saw Carpet Remnant World live). Lee flirts with offensiveness but it's done in a way that makes me reflect on my own reaction and reconsider my views.
I think of Lee's bit about Top Gear being the apex of this, just several minutes of investigation into bigotry and "it's just a joke!" as a response to it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:45 AM on March 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
I think of Lee's bit about Top Gear being the apex of this, just several minutes of investigation into bigotry and "it's just a joke!" as a response to it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:45 AM on March 23, 2018 [14 favorites]
I started going off him during Extras so I feel ahead of the curve (well mainly in the unbelievably smug self-promotional interviews for it). It was when he doing the mong stuff that I really started to hate him.
Although I remain weirdly fascinated by him... he's a guy who claims to never read a book but he's married to a novelist for a start.
I was thinking before the latest if he would actually go full on alt-right and now he's getting pretty close when he thanks Paul Joseph Wilson for bigging him up.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:46 AM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Although I remain weirdly fascinated by him... he's a guy who claims to never read a book but he's married to a novelist for a start.
I was thinking before the latest if he would actually go full on alt-right and now he's getting pretty close when he thanks Paul Joseph Wilson for bigging him up.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:46 AM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Gervais is unfortunately not alone. Seth McFarlane is also this breed of saying something boringly offensive, getting shrugged at or criticised, and then countering that his critics "lack a sense of humor". Buncha down-punching achingly dull amateurs.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:52 AM on March 23, 2018 [49 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:52 AM on March 23, 2018 [49 favorites]
I rewatched some of the Shandling thing earlier and it's still staggering... I don't why Shandling decided to do it but it's 'you think you can do cringe comedy...? well let me show you something' and Shandling just utterly takes him apart. At some points Gervais looks utterly bewildered like he just doesn't know what is happening... it's like watching a lion play with a mouse (or as twitter mutual said: a boxing match between Charles Hawtrey and Mike Tyson)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:58 AM on March 23, 2018 [39 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:58 AM on March 23, 2018 [39 favorites]
Gervais is unfortunately not alone. Seth McFarlane is also this breed of saying something boringly offensive, getting shrugged at or criticised, and then countering that his critics "lack a sense of humor".
e.g. Maher, Bill.
posted by non canadian guy at 11:04 AM on March 23, 2018 [40 favorites]
e.g. Maher, Bill.
posted by non canadian guy at 11:04 AM on March 23, 2018 [40 favorites]
Also:
It's pretty telling that you can write an entire article about what a no-talent asshole Ricky Gervais is and never have to drop An Idiot Abroad reference into the mix to validly make your point. I mean, if you want evidence that Gervais is a no-talent asshole, just watch that show.
Holy shit yes, thank you. I was starting to think I was the only person who loathed this show. Gervais has no finesse for satire, so the trope of "sneering Englishman goes to foreign countries and unfavorably compares everything to Britain" really had me scratching my head. Like, is the joke here that Gervais is making this guy miserable? That he shouldn't be miserable? That foreigners are weird but we can't say that but this guy just did? Who the fuck knows. It's handled so clumsily, and this kind of neo-colonial attitude is so rampant, that whatever humor might be in this premise evaporates on contact.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:11 AM on March 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
It's pretty telling that you can write an entire article about what a no-talent asshole Ricky Gervais is and never have to drop An Idiot Abroad reference into the mix to validly make your point. I mean, if you want evidence that Gervais is a no-talent asshole, just watch that show.
Holy shit yes, thank you. I was starting to think I was the only person who loathed this show. Gervais has no finesse for satire, so the trope of "sneering Englishman goes to foreign countries and unfavorably compares everything to Britain" really had me scratching my head. Like, is the joke here that Gervais is making this guy miserable? That he shouldn't be miserable? That foreigners are weird but we can't say that but this guy just did? Who the fuck knows. It's handled so clumsily, and this kind of neo-colonial attitude is so rampant, that whatever humor might be in this premise evaporates on contact.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:11 AM on March 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
I didn't see the promotional interviews for Extras, so that show actually built a small reservoir of goodwill for Gervais that is maintained by never ever paying attention to him. It was exactly what Gervais comedy is good for - recognizing that as much as we may like ourselves and think we're good people, we're still incredibly flawed and should maybe not give up self-improvement.
It's something that can come out in a television show that falls flat in stand-up.
Not that I'm giving him credit for understanding why that worked, based on the fact that he continues to use the same jokes in vastly differ power dynamics without noticing that it doesn't land.
posted by politikitty at 11:19 AM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's something that can come out in a television show that falls flat in stand-up.
Not that I'm giving him credit for understanding why that worked, based on the fact that he continues to use the same jokes in vastly differ power dynamics without noticing that it doesn't land.
posted by politikitty at 11:19 AM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
I never did get Gervais's humor and couldn't stomach the UK Office.
posted by octothorpe at 11:27 AM on March 23, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 11:27 AM on March 23, 2018 [12 favorites]
Are all comedians destined to turn from comic to crank?
Very foolish question - I can name a dozen comedians that haven't. A better one to ask would by "why do some comedians turn into cranks", and the answer is pretty evident in this thread.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:31 AM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Very foolish question - I can name a dozen comedians that haven't. A better one to ask would by "why do some comedians turn into cranks", and the answer is pretty evident in this thread.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:31 AM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
He was always kind of a jerk though. For a long time if you wanted to point to the quintessential asshole atheist, well he wasn't at the top of the list- but he was up there.
Seriously. He was maybe a step below Dawkins when Dawkins was saying that reading fiction made kids unable to tell between fantasy and reality. I never liked Ricky Gervais until I was introduced to Karl Pilkington, and even then, Gervais was just his grating sidekick who wanted to stomp all over Karl's weird eccentricities.
Seriously, the number of things that Gervais has absolutely SHIT ALL OVER Karl for saying that TURNED OUT TO BE FUCKING TRUE is starting to really pile up. (My favorite, that most ants are "faffin' about", ended up being supported by science. Ricky absolutely eviscerated Karl for that remark.) Karl's absurdity really makes me laugh, but Ricky continued to be grating, shitting all over him every three seconds, often purposefully choosing to misinterpret him to make him sound stupider. (Ricky lambasted Karl for the quote "What were those things in Gremlins called?" because Ricky thinks he meant "Gremlins" when he was searching for the fancy name Gizmo is called in the movie, "Mogwai." But no, Ricky can't be arsed to tell the fucking difference or realize apparently Karl has a more in depth thought about this than he does.)
To people who didn't like An Idiot Abroad, it might be because you were introduced to it as a Ricky Gervais vehicle, and not a Karl Pilkington vehicle. Honestly, Gervais should have left himself out of the show more often. Understanding Karl Pilktington, however, really does take going back and listening to the old radio show they had where Ricky and Steve first met Karl, years before they would do a podcast together. I almost never did because I disliked Ricky Gervais so much, but a friend pushed and pushed and convinced me to ignore Ricky and pay attention to Karl. And they were right. There's something about Karl that is lovable in his total dimwit way. However, even in that, I'm not sure An Idiot Abroad was ever a right fit for Karl as much as being the producer on a dumb radio show.
Anyway, Ricky has always been a pile of shit selling himself as gold (as others have astutely pointed out, he's the British version Seth McFarlane). For all his talk of growing up poor, he's been nothing but oblivious to his privileges, especially those afforded since he has achieved fame.
Don't even get me started on the ugliness of Derek.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:32 AM on March 23, 2018 [41 favorites]
Seriously. He was maybe a step below Dawkins when Dawkins was saying that reading fiction made kids unable to tell between fantasy and reality. I never liked Ricky Gervais until I was introduced to Karl Pilkington, and even then, Gervais was just his grating sidekick who wanted to stomp all over Karl's weird eccentricities.
Seriously, the number of things that Gervais has absolutely SHIT ALL OVER Karl for saying that TURNED OUT TO BE FUCKING TRUE is starting to really pile up. (My favorite, that most ants are "faffin' about", ended up being supported by science. Ricky absolutely eviscerated Karl for that remark.) Karl's absurdity really makes me laugh, but Ricky continued to be grating, shitting all over him every three seconds, often purposefully choosing to misinterpret him to make him sound stupider. (Ricky lambasted Karl for the quote "What were those things in Gremlins called?" because Ricky thinks he meant "Gremlins" when he was searching for the fancy name Gizmo is called in the movie, "Mogwai." But no, Ricky can't be arsed to tell the fucking difference or realize apparently Karl has a more in depth thought about this than he does.)
To people who didn't like An Idiot Abroad, it might be because you were introduced to it as a Ricky Gervais vehicle, and not a Karl Pilkington vehicle. Honestly, Gervais should have left himself out of the show more often. Understanding Karl Pilktington, however, really does take going back and listening to the old radio show they had where Ricky and Steve first met Karl, years before they would do a podcast together. I almost never did because I disliked Ricky Gervais so much, but a friend pushed and pushed and convinced me to ignore Ricky and pay attention to Karl. And they were right. There's something about Karl that is lovable in his total dimwit way. However, even in that, I'm not sure An Idiot Abroad was ever a right fit for Karl as much as being the producer on a dumb radio show.
Anyway, Ricky has always been a pile of shit selling himself as gold (as others have astutely pointed out, he's the British version Seth McFarlane). For all his talk of growing up poor, he's been nothing but oblivious to his privileges, especially those afforded since he has achieved fame.
Don't even get me started on the ugliness of Derek.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:32 AM on March 23, 2018 [41 favorites]
I liked the UK Office, and found Extras mostly forgettable aside from some standout moments (Patrick Stewart's turn sharing his dream script that he's writing is forever a classic; he brings a perfection of poker-faced comic timing--"So it's a comedy, then?" "...no."--that Ricky Gervais could really only dream of), and then he fell thoroughly off my radar.
In retrospect, I'm not too surprised that he's yet another big-fish-small-pond who got the frontman credit for the hard work of everyone surrounding him at the start. A telling bit was the "Meanwhile, his previously neglected contemporaries have all risen up".
posted by Drastic at 11:33 AM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
In retrospect, I'm not too surprised that he's yet another big-fish-small-pond who got the frontman credit for the hard work of everyone surrounding him at the start. A telling bit was the "Meanwhile, his previously neglected contemporaries have all risen up".
posted by Drastic at 11:33 AM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
> Also what the fuck is with comedy specials and transphobia?
Can I take a moment to derail and point out something nice instead? I don't know if you saw this recent GQ interview with Glenn Howerton (of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia fame) but I really really liked this part:
posted by komara at 11:35 AM on March 23, 2018 [105 favorites]
Can I take a moment to derail and point out something nice instead? I don't know if you saw this recent GQ interview with Glenn Howerton (of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia fame) but I really really liked this part:
This is very fraught time for the industry, and problematic discourse in general. How has Sunny managed to stay above that fray?To see that guy call himself out and hold himself responsible for things he's done and confirm that they're wrong, and deliberately not celebrate being an asshole (or reward characters for being assholes) is really refreshing.
I have my own theories. I mean, there are a few things, that if I could go back, I would probably do differently. In the first couple seasons, we referred to a character as “the tranny.” Personally, I wasn't as aware of the power of that word at the time.
Now, granted, I think one of the reasons why we get away with it or why it makes sense is because the characters are awful people. They're not celebrated for it and they always lose and they always get their comeuppance, and I think that's important. But I think if I were to do it all over again, there would probably have been at least one person in the group to say like, "You shouldn't use that word." I know our hearts were always in the right place and we never wanted to offend anybody. And still, our intention is never to offend.
Often when people say, "I'm satirizing, I'm shining a light," it means, "I'm looking for an excuse to just say the worst thing."
To be able to use that, yeah. And we are not. We really weren't, and aren't. That's why we had to not only lean into it, but lean hard into it. Lean really hard. And to always show the opposing view. And to make it clear that the reason this character may be failing at something is because they're going about it the wrong way and they are offensive and they're horrible.
posted by komara at 11:35 AM on March 23, 2018 [105 favorites]
Gervais has no finesse for satire, so the trope of "sneering Englishman goes to foreign countries and unfavorably compares everything to Britain" really had me scratching my head.
My take on An Idiot Abroad was always that it was more about an ongoing practical joke at Karl's expense than pointing a finger at other cultures or colonialism. Having listened to the old XFM radio shows and the podcasts with Gervais, Pilkington and Merchant, it's pretty clear that Gervais has a sort of fascination with Karl's thinking and his negative attitudes toward many things. The show seemed to be about viewing interesting cultures and locations through the lens of Karl's unhappiness. If it's poking fun at anyone, it's poking fun at Karl and, by extension, the millions of Brits he represents, who go abroad to experience something new only to grumble at everything that's different from home.
I mean, if you want evidence that Gervais is a no-talent asshole, just watch that show.
There are likely many examples which support the argument that Gervais is lacking in talent, but I don't think this is one of them, as the lens is entirely on Karl throughout. It does somewhat support the asshole label, as he freely says in the opening of the show that he made it because it was an opportunity to make Karl miserable -- "'Nothing is funnier than Karl in a corner being poked by a stick. I am that stick and now I have the might of Sky behind me."
posted by myotahapea at 11:39 AM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
My take on An Idiot Abroad was always that it was more about an ongoing practical joke at Karl's expense than pointing a finger at other cultures or colonialism. Having listened to the old XFM radio shows and the podcasts with Gervais, Pilkington and Merchant, it's pretty clear that Gervais has a sort of fascination with Karl's thinking and his negative attitudes toward many things. The show seemed to be about viewing interesting cultures and locations through the lens of Karl's unhappiness. If it's poking fun at anyone, it's poking fun at Karl and, by extension, the millions of Brits he represents, who go abroad to experience something new only to grumble at everything that's different from home.
I mean, if you want evidence that Gervais is a no-talent asshole, just watch that show.
There are likely many examples which support the argument that Gervais is lacking in talent, but I don't think this is one of them, as the lens is entirely on Karl throughout. It does somewhat support the asshole label, as he freely says in the opening of the show that he made it because it was an opportunity to make Karl miserable -- "'Nothing is funnier than Karl in a corner being poked by a stick. I am that stick and now I have the might of Sky behind me."
posted by myotahapea at 11:39 AM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
Going back and watching the Bowie clip from Extras does make me think that "Chubby Little Fat Man" eventually resurfaced as "Where Are We Now" on The Next Day.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 11:45 AM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by the phlegmatic king at 11:45 AM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
Also what the fuck is with comedy specials and transphobia? I've lost count of the specials I've turned off because some fuckhead has decided that's what's going to get him the biggest laugh (I say him because it's always a cis het man).
In his latest special I actually liked how Dave Chappelle talked about the trans response to some of his earlier jokes and how it changed his thinking. Sort of a, "well I still don't totally get it, but if you don't feel right in your own body I shouldn't make you feel bad about it," while still reserving the right to poke fun a bit.
I think that line is fine to take, he's always seemed to be more or less an ally, and no one should be above a little fun at their expense. He's made plenty of gay jokes and as a gay man I've never been offended.
I understand that there is still "problematic" material in his bits, but the complaints about it have always seemed to be a little oversensitive. Maybe that's just my take on how comedy should work.
posted by karlshea at 11:45 AM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
In his latest special I actually liked how Dave Chappelle talked about the trans response to some of his earlier jokes and how it changed his thinking. Sort of a, "well I still don't totally get it, but if you don't feel right in your own body I shouldn't make you feel bad about it," while still reserving the right to poke fun a bit.
I think that line is fine to take, he's always seemed to be more or less an ally, and no one should be above a little fun at their expense. He's made plenty of gay jokes and as a gay man I've never been offended.
I understand that there is still "problematic" material in his bits, but the complaints about it have always seemed to be a little oversensitive. Maybe that's just my take on how comedy should work.
posted by karlshea at 11:45 AM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Gervais hasn't changed. The culture has.
posted by clawsoon at 11:46 AM on March 23, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:46 AM on March 23, 2018 [30 favorites]
Once again, if you have a problem with offense, you don't actually believe in free speech. You want to provoke people, go ahead - just accept that the people you provoke have the right to speak about that provocation.
Exactly. And that means suffering the consequences if people don't buy your product or watch your show. UK idea of going after people for this criminally is all wrong.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:46 AM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Exactly. And that means suffering the consequences if people don't buy your product or watch your show. UK idea of going after people for this criminally is all wrong.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:46 AM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was really infatuated with Ricky Gervais when I first became aware of him, because I found The Office hilarious (in low doses -- I have a hard time with cringe humor) and because he was an atheist.
Back in the early 2000s there were vanishingly few publicly visible atheists. It's not all that much different now, but it is different. Back then, there was pretty much just him. It was nice to see anyone at all.
And then, the more he talked, I grew to realize that no representation at all is better than awful representation.
posted by gurple at 11:47 AM on March 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
Back in the early 2000s there were vanishingly few publicly visible atheists. It's not all that much different now, but it is different. Back then, there was pretty much just him. It was nice to see anyone at all.
And then, the more he talked, I grew to realize that no representation at all is better than awful representation.
posted by gurple at 11:47 AM on March 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
"sneering Englishman goes to foreign countries and unfavorably compares everything to Britain" really had me scratching my head. Like, is the joke here that Gervais is making this guy miserable? That he shouldn't be miserable? That foreigners are weird but we can't say that but this guy just did?
I thought the joke with Carl is he grew up poor, and has kept his Poor People Opinions as an adult. (I guess Gervais thinks having a terrible education in an impoverished town is a personal failing?). He's a working class northerner who doesn't 'get' middle class cultural attitudes towards travel, assumes he's not good enough at language understand the locals so doesn't try, is generally underwhelmed by the approved lists of impressive landmarks, uses Mancunian dialect Mexico City locals will definitely not understand, and generally fails at Improving Himself To Middle Class Standards. In fact he is not remotely interested in becoming middle class. That's the entire thing Gervais just cannot believe and is supposed to be the spark of hilarity? (The UK Office is also based entirely on this).
I like An Idiot Abroad because I think something interesting did happen regardless of Gervais' intentions - you get to see a travel documentary that shows how travel can fall short of your fantasies and be kind of depressing, like watching all that trash swirl around in the breeze near the pyramids, visiting the Great Wall but seeing/using communal squat toilets, etc etc. That you can stand in front of Christ the Redeemer and feel not much of anything. I don't know how many times I've stood in front of some famous thing and not been able to summon the amount of awe I feel is required, and been kind of ashamed? Carl doesn't feel ashamed. He just flat out says when something doesn't mean anything to him. And I think it's interesting to examine where our meaningful experiences come from and why, and how having a proscribed list of them fails us.
The other thing is, travel obviously doesn't always improve a person or make them culturally sensitive. The amount of westerners sauntering around Bangkok, wearing their shoes into temples despite being explicitly directed not to because they don't give a shit, pissing on ancient holy sites in Indonesia, etc can be seen by anyone who visits these places. I think Gervais' point here is that travel should be for the middle class, because they're the only ones who appreciate and benefit from it, but IDK, I've seen a lot of gap-yah graduates behaving terribly abroad so ???
posted by everydayanewday at 11:53 AM on March 23, 2018 [27 favorites]
I thought the joke with Carl is he grew up poor, and has kept his Poor People Opinions as an adult. (I guess Gervais thinks having a terrible education in an impoverished town is a personal failing?). He's a working class northerner who doesn't 'get' middle class cultural attitudes towards travel, assumes he's not good enough at language understand the locals so doesn't try, is generally underwhelmed by the approved lists of impressive landmarks, uses Mancunian dialect Mexico City locals will definitely not understand, and generally fails at Improving Himself To Middle Class Standards. In fact he is not remotely interested in becoming middle class. That's the entire thing Gervais just cannot believe and is supposed to be the spark of hilarity? (The UK Office is also based entirely on this).
I like An Idiot Abroad because I think something interesting did happen regardless of Gervais' intentions - you get to see a travel documentary that shows how travel can fall short of your fantasies and be kind of depressing, like watching all that trash swirl around in the breeze near the pyramids, visiting the Great Wall but seeing/using communal squat toilets, etc etc. That you can stand in front of Christ the Redeemer and feel not much of anything. I don't know how many times I've stood in front of some famous thing and not been able to summon the amount of awe I feel is required, and been kind of ashamed? Carl doesn't feel ashamed. He just flat out says when something doesn't mean anything to him. And I think it's interesting to examine where our meaningful experiences come from and why, and how having a proscribed list of them fails us.
The other thing is, travel obviously doesn't always improve a person or make them culturally sensitive. The amount of westerners sauntering around Bangkok, wearing their shoes into temples despite being explicitly directed not to because they don't give a shit, pissing on ancient holy sites in Indonesia, etc can be seen by anyone who visits these places. I think Gervais' point here is that travel should be for the middle class, because they're the only ones who appreciate and benefit from it, but IDK, I've seen a lot of gap-yah graduates behaving terribly abroad so ???
posted by everydayanewday at 11:53 AM on March 23, 2018 [27 favorites]
One of the social media accounts I do a bit of work on follows Gervais, which means that it now throws up every single thing he's liked into the timeline (thanks Twitter!) and he is indiscriminately liking and sometimes interacting with, anything positive that contains his name, including literal Holocaust Deniers and in one case, someone using Goering as their profile pic. It's really disturbing.
It's also really odd how someone so vocally in favour of offence is so astonishingly thin-skinned
posted by threetwentytwo at 11:53 AM on March 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
It's also really odd how someone so vocally in favour of offence is so astonishingly thin-skinned
posted by threetwentytwo at 11:53 AM on March 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
In Canada - and in parts of Europe, I believe - we've limited free speech rights. (The exact line in our constitution is "subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society".)
I think that the libertarian brigade, in which Gervais is a comedy soldier, believes that any limit on free speech starts you on a slippery slope into totalitarianism and kill-the-wrongthinker. They don't believe in Canada.
posted by clawsoon at 11:53 AM on March 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
I think that the libertarian brigade, in which Gervais is a comedy soldier, believes that any limit on free speech starts you on a slippery slope into totalitarianism and kill-the-wrongthinker. They don't believe in Canada.
posted by clawsoon at 11:53 AM on March 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
Gervais has morphed into something like the British Carlos Mencia: an irrelevant and mediocre public persona who deludes himself that his shabby material is simply too real for the haters to enjoy.
That seemed a bit harsh to me; Mencia never had high points in his career anywhere near The Office (although I'm mostly giving him credit here for inspiring the US version; I've never seen the British one) and Extras (although that's mostly for the celebrity appearances, in particular Bowie, Stewart, Daniel Radcliffe, and Kate Winslet). But there's certainly nothing keeping anyone from sinking to that level, and many have.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:54 AM on March 23, 2018
That seemed a bit harsh to me; Mencia never had high points in his career anywhere near The Office (although I'm mostly giving him credit here for inspiring the US version; I've never seen the British one) and Extras (although that's mostly for the celebrity appearances, in particular Bowie, Stewart, Daniel Radcliffe, and Kate Winslet). But there's certainly nothing keeping anyone from sinking to that level, and many have.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:54 AM on March 23, 2018
I always thought a "great" show would be An Asshole Abroad. Where cameras follow Ricky around India or Sudan or where ever for a season. But then the whole show is just one 5 minutes bit where the producers tell ricky the cameras weren't recording, and that Karl gets a million pounds.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 11:55 AM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 11:55 AM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
I mean, if you want evidence that Gervais is a no-talent asshole,
he's many things and many of them rather unpleasant, but "no-talent"? Nah. At least, I'm not ready for that level of revisionism just yet. If nothing else (beyond The Office and Extras), his regular skewering of the famous and fabulous at the Golden Globes will take a long time to erase from my personal history book.
posted by philip-random at 11:57 AM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
he's many things and many of them rather unpleasant, but "no-talent"? Nah. At least, I'm not ready for that level of revisionism just yet. If nothing else (beyond The Office and Extras), his regular skewering of the famous and fabulous at the Golden Globes will take a long time to erase from my personal history book.
posted by philip-random at 11:57 AM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
The show seemed to be about viewing interesting cultures and locations through the lens of Karl's unhappiness.
I think this is the thing - Gervais never seems to want to ask where this unhappiness comes from, or how Carl's world got so small (spoiler: it's from growing up in a world where your opportunities will be limited and you won't have the chance to go anywhere or do anything EVER, so you concentrate on the life and the community you have).
As for him not appreciating Carl for his kind of wonderful, leftfield thoughts and quashing him with "YOU'RE STUPID, STUPId sTUpiD", I often wonder if it's because Ricky knows he's not as interesting or creative? His following of convention has flattened his ideas and I think he's aware of that.
posted by everydayanewday at 12:02 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think this is the thing - Gervais never seems to want to ask where this unhappiness comes from, or how Carl's world got so small (spoiler: it's from growing up in a world where your opportunities will be limited and you won't have the chance to go anywhere or do anything EVER, so you concentrate on the life and the community you have).
As for him not appreciating Carl for his kind of wonderful, leftfield thoughts and quashing him with "YOU'RE STUPID, STUPId sTUpiD", I often wonder if it's because Ricky knows he's not as interesting or creative? His following of convention has flattened his ideas and I think he's aware of that.
posted by everydayanewday at 12:02 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
I stopped paying attention to Gervais back when he published a four-volume series of uninspired notebook doodles because he thought we cared to look at them.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:07 PM on March 23, 2018
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:07 PM on March 23, 2018
As for him not appreciating Carl for his kind of wonderful, leftfield thoughts and quashing him with "YOU'RE STUPID, STUPId sTUpiD", I often wonder if it's because Ricky knows he's not as interesting or creative
I think it's partially that, but I also think it's tied in with Ricky's status as an atheist (or a certain type of atheist anyway, I say, as an atheist). He needs someone who seems like a fool like Karl to "be a fool" so Ricky can continue living in a world where he is the "enlightened." It's part of why I am in love with all the "foolish" sounding things that Karl has said that somehow turn out to be true, to which Ricky replies with "STUPID," because I know that they really, truly must burn Ricky the fuck up inside. They shatter his worldview that he is enlightened and others are not. They remind him he is just a stupid fucking animal just like all the rest, he doesn't have any special insight, and the guy he thinks is a buffoon does.
It's part of why I liked Steven Merchant a lot more than Ricky, back on the radio show/podcast. At least Steven had a bunch of self-depreciating stories that truly were humorous. It was the standard "conventional nerdy white man does unconventional thing and has bad time" like his own trip to Rio, but it was better than Ricky's offerings of abuse. Which to be fair, Karl claims Steven couldn't hack it where he was forced to stay in Rio, but according to Steve in the past, that's exactly what he had done already. Which is why Steven's involvement in An Idiot Abroad made more sense and felt more true to form, because he had spent a lot of time talking about travel with Karl.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:12 PM on March 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
I think it's partially that, but I also think it's tied in with Ricky's status as an atheist (or a certain type of atheist anyway, I say, as an atheist). He needs someone who seems like a fool like Karl to "be a fool" so Ricky can continue living in a world where he is the "enlightened." It's part of why I am in love with all the "foolish" sounding things that Karl has said that somehow turn out to be true, to which Ricky replies with "STUPID," because I know that they really, truly must burn Ricky the fuck up inside. They shatter his worldview that he is enlightened and others are not. They remind him he is just a stupid fucking animal just like all the rest, he doesn't have any special insight, and the guy he thinks is a buffoon does.
It's part of why I liked Steven Merchant a lot more than Ricky, back on the radio show/podcast. At least Steven had a bunch of self-depreciating stories that truly were humorous. It was the standard "conventional nerdy white man does unconventional thing and has bad time" like his own trip to Rio, but it was better than Ricky's offerings of abuse. Which to be fair, Karl claims Steven couldn't hack it where he was forced to stay in Rio, but according to Steve in the past, that's exactly what he had done already. Which is why Steven's involvement in An Idiot Abroad made more sense and felt more true to form, because he had spent a lot of time talking about travel with Karl.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:12 PM on March 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
He's just MEAN, and as Buckaroo Banzai said, "Hey, hey, hey — don't be mean. We don't have to be mean."
I assume he had something** to do with us getting the US version of "The Office", which I love, but the rest of his fucking nonsense?
Hard, hard pass.
**I just don't know how all that worked; I don't want to give him too much credit or not enough.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:13 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
I assume he had something** to do with us getting the US version of "The Office", which I love, but the rest of his fucking nonsense?
Hard, hard pass.
**I just don't know how all that worked; I don't want to give him too much credit or not enough.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:13 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
If nothing else (beyond The Office and Extras), his regular skewering of the famous and fabulous at the Golden Globes will take a long time to erase from my personal history book.
So, like when he deadnamed Caitlyn Jenner and made fun of female actors who were protesting the Hollywood wage gap? Because I'll continue to remember those Golden Globes moments, too.
posted by camyram at 12:17 PM on March 23, 2018 [41 favorites]
So, like when he deadnamed Caitlyn Jenner and made fun of female actors who were protesting the Hollywood wage gap? Because I'll continue to remember those Golden Globes moments, too.
posted by camyram at 12:17 PM on March 23, 2018 [41 favorites]
This is a difference between him and Stewart Lee (who I didn't like much until I saw Carpet Remnant World live). Lee flirts with offensiveness but it's done in a way that makes me reflect on my own reaction and reconsider my views.
Lee deals with many of the topics Gervais vaguely lumbers around, like "what is the relation between the target of a joke and the subject of a joke" and "are any topics off limits to humour", and "what is the relation of the context of language and its offensiveness", but, crucially, Lee doesn't punch down, and also is an actual genius, so far as I'm concerned.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:17 PM on March 23, 2018 [22 favorites]
Lee deals with many of the topics Gervais vaguely lumbers around, like "what is the relation between the target of a joke and the subject of a joke" and "are any topics off limits to humour", and "what is the relation of the context of language and its offensiveness", but, crucially, Lee doesn't punch down, and also is an actual genius, so far as I'm concerned.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:17 PM on March 23, 2018 [22 favorites]
I like An Idiot Abroad because I think something interesting did happen regardless of Gervais' intentions - you get to see a travel documentary that shows how travel can fall short of your fantasies and be kind of depressing ...
Now that I think of it, it's a little remarkable that Paul Theroux wasn't making travel shows like this 30 years ago.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:18 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Now that I think of it, it's a little remarkable that Paul Theroux wasn't making travel shows like this 30 years ago.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:18 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
RE: The Office (UK) & The Office (USA)
I will give Ricky Gervais one thing and one thing alone
I like stories that have a beginning, middle, and end, and that stay unresolved, because that's more like writing a novel, or any other type of what I might consider "serious" literature. I have always disliked American television's desire to take a premise and run it for literally as long as it can before they stop doing it. It has turned countless shows into disgusting husks of their former selves. The Simpsons still haunts FOX as though it hasn't been one foot in the grave for over a decade.
Ricky Gervais is a piece of shit but he understands that a good story has a well defined end that doesn't take years to get to (I'm looking at you George RR Martin.).
So Ricky, more of that, less of this, mmmkay?
posted by deadaluspark at 12:20 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I will give Ricky Gervais one thing and one thing alone
I like stories that have a beginning, middle, and end, and that stay unresolved, because that's more like writing a novel, or any other type of what I might consider "serious" literature. I have always disliked American television's desire to take a premise and run it for literally as long as it can before they stop doing it. It has turned countless shows into disgusting husks of their former selves. The Simpsons still haunts FOX as though it hasn't been one foot in the grave for over a decade.
Ricky Gervais is a piece of shit but he understands that a good story has a well defined end that doesn't take years to get to (I'm looking at you George RR Martin.).
So Ricky, more of that, less of this, mmmkay?
posted by deadaluspark at 12:20 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
but we missed seeing what Tim did when he found the Ring of Power in series 3!
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:23 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:23 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Carl doesn't feel ashamed. He just flat out says when something doesn't mean anything to him. And I think it's interesting to examine where our meaningful experiences come from and why, and how having a proscribed list of them fails us.
I've been a big fan of Karl. Some of his bits ("mental, the amount of fish that are knockin' about") have just doubled me over with laughter. And I enjoyed most of An Idiot Abroad. But when he went to Egypt and wandered through the Egyptian Museum like a bored child, I wanted to shake him. I've studied Egypt all my life. I would have killed for that trip. And he got it specifically so that he would hate it and that we could watch him hate it. The joke, I realized, was not just on him.
Later, I gave it another try, but he was on the road with Warwick Davis, who was being extremely professional and patient while Karl was being obliviously, appallingly ableist towards him. And that was supposed to be the draw -- the dwarf being mocked by the fool. It was medieval.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:25 PM on March 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
I've been a big fan of Karl. Some of his bits ("mental, the amount of fish that are knockin' about") have just doubled me over with laughter. And I enjoyed most of An Idiot Abroad. But when he went to Egypt and wandered through the Egyptian Museum like a bored child, I wanted to shake him. I've studied Egypt all my life. I would have killed for that trip. And he got it specifically so that he would hate it and that we could watch him hate it. The joke, I realized, was not just on him.
Later, I gave it another try, but he was on the road with Warwick Davis, who was being extremely professional and patient while Karl was being obliviously, appallingly ableist towards him. And that was supposed to be the draw -- the dwarf being mocked by the fool. It was medieval.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:25 PM on March 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
Later, I gave it another try, but he was on the road with Warwick Davis, who was being extremely professional and patient while Karl was being obliviously, appallingly ableist towards him. And that was supposed to be the draw -- the dwarf being mocked by the fool. It was medieval.
That third season with Warrick. It's decidedly fucking dark. Hardly funny at all, mostly just extremely uncomfortable. Karl is oblivious to other peoples problems and often that's funny, but not in moments like these. Moments like these we see Karl at his worst, his lack of education and his fascination with people who are "different" making him truly be the fool that Ricky thinks he is.
I enjoy the first two seasons, and I often forget the third exists because its so fucking dark.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:28 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
That third season with Warrick. It's decidedly fucking dark. Hardly funny at all, mostly just extremely uncomfortable. Karl is oblivious to other peoples problems and often that's funny, but not in moments like these. Moments like these we see Karl at his worst, his lack of education and his fascination with people who are "different" making him truly be the fool that Ricky thinks he is.
I enjoy the first two seasons, and I often forget the third exists because its so fucking dark.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:28 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thanks to everyone for offering up their perspectives on Idiot Abroad. A joke needing to be explained normally kills the humor of that joke for me, but I'm going to give the series another shot. Provided I can bear Gervais' overlaughing and general mean spiritedness.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 12:29 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 12:29 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Coming from : I am totally a Stewart Lee fan - liked the UK office - but don't find it rewatchable - and felt annoyed at Ricky laying it on Karl in the podcasts .
The point where I felt Ricky had lost it - was a HBO show called "Talking Funny" (I am not linking , but is on utube) with Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, Ricky Gervais, Louis CK.
He could not contribute in the flow of anything that was funny. And he was super rich now and complaining about that . And he had hit the gym in that t-shirt that seems one size too small to be comfortable.
Seemed to be overcompensating. His ego was the only thing there.
posted by epjr at 12:32 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
The point where I felt Ricky had lost it - was a HBO show called "Talking Funny" (I am not linking , but is on utube) with Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, Ricky Gervais, Louis CK.
He could not contribute in the flow of anything that was funny. And he was super rich now and complaining about that . And he had hit the gym in that t-shirt that seems one size too small to be comfortable.
Seemed to be overcompensating. His ego was the only thing there.
posted by epjr at 12:32 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
I don't understand the hate. His brand of comedy has been consistent through the years. I don't understand how jokes about Caitlyn Jenner are exactly punching down or transphobic. She's a reality TV celebrity and he's been mercilessly mocking all kinds of celebrities since forever. He goes to great lengths in his special explaining the target of the joke which kind of makes the whole routine unfunny but it didn't seem like he came across as transphobic.
He might be an asshole and definitely not for most people but this is completely his brand of comedy. I know nothing about his twitter feuds though..
posted by savitarka at 12:43 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
He might be an asshole and definitely not for most people but this is completely his brand of comedy. I know nothing about his twitter feuds though..
posted by savitarka at 12:43 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Deadnaming someone is a transphobic hostile act, not a comedic joke.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:44 PM on March 23, 2018 [74 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 12:44 PM on March 23, 2018 [74 favorites]
Yeah, I noticed that about him in the Talking Funny pilot. He could've been missing from the set, and no one would've noticed. Everything he added lacked insight, knowledge of his craft. All he could do was laugh wildly and clap, trying to finish the other comedians' sentences to claim an idea as his own. I remember wondering why this guy was so famous.
I got up and left 10 minutes into the invention of lying, and can't watch the UK Office. Feeling kinda validated right now.
posted by _Synesthesia_ at 12:45 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
I got up and left 10 minutes into the invention of lying, and can't watch the UK Office. Feeling kinda validated right now.
posted by _Synesthesia_ at 12:45 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
I remember watching Gervais on Talking Funny back when that premiered on HBO, and thinking about how out of place he seemed with talented people. Gervais was a sycophant and a bit dull. I think the other comedians even begin teasing him at a certain point about this. I had forgotten that Gervais had arranged the entire thing. To invite three masters of your trade over to talk shop, and then to be roundly humiliated as a comparative amateur, really must have hurt. Maybe that's why Gervais is so intent on doing bad stand-up, as a sort of revenge against the form?
On preview what EPJR said.
posted by codacorolla at 12:45 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
On preview what EPJR said.
posted by codacorolla at 12:45 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
But when he went to Egypt and wandered through the Egyptian Museum like a bored child, I wanted to shake him. I've studied Egypt all my life. I would have killed for that trip. And he got it specifically so that he would hate it and that we could watch him hate it. The joke, I realized, was not just on him.
Countess Elena, I totally agree that even as a general fan of Carl, there are aspects of his personality that I find not great (There are lots, but his interactions with Warwick show especially unpleasant things he needs to work on and change, that are not funny and just gross). I am frustrated with his lack of interest sometimes too, it can come off like a spoilt kid whining he doesn't feel like swimming with the dolphins. I feel like I'm going hard for him here because of Gervais' insistence he is... basically a worthless idiot is just Ugh.
posted by everydayanewday at 12:46 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Countess Elena, I totally agree that even as a general fan of Carl, there are aspects of his personality that I find not great (There are lots, but his interactions with Warwick show especially unpleasant things he needs to work on and change, that are not funny and just gross). I am frustrated with his lack of interest sometimes too, it can come off like a spoilt kid whining he doesn't feel like swimming with the dolphins. I feel like I'm going hard for him here because of Gervais' insistence he is... basically a worthless idiot is just Ugh.
posted by everydayanewday at 12:46 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
You can make plenty of jokes about Caitlyn Jenner and her ridiculous family without bringing the fact that she's trans into it.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:46 PM on March 23, 2018 [40 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 12:46 PM on March 23, 2018 [40 favorites]
I would like to call a moratorium on people who are not trans or trans allies going into threads with "I don't see what all the fuss is about..."
posted by Kitteh at 12:47 PM on March 23, 2018 [65 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:47 PM on March 23, 2018 [65 favorites]
I think of Lee's bit about Top Gear being the apex of this, just several minutes of investigation into bigotry and "it's just a joke!" as a response to it.
While this is a fantastic piece of comedy, Lee's story of how he met Jesus on a walk back from the pub pushes that into second place. It's devastating.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 12:48 PM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
While this is a fantastic piece of comedy, Lee's story of how he met Jesus on a walk back from the pub pushes that into second place. It's devastating.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 12:48 PM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
I don't understand how jokes about Caitlyn Jenner are exactly punching down or transphobic. She's a reality TV celebrity and he's been mercilessly mocking all kinds of celebrities since forever. He goes to great lengths in his special explaining the target of the joke which kind of makes the whole routine unfunny but it didn't seem like he came across as transphobic.
OK. So, you know how whenever someone makes fun of Melania Trump for being "a trophy wife" or cracks some joke about Rob Ford's weight, and people take exception with that? They do so not because Melania or Rob don't deserve criticism; they do so because the joke isn't "she's a woman who married a rich man" or "he is overweight". Same thing with Jenner. That's what makes the shit transphobic.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 12:50 PM on March 23, 2018 [24 favorites]
OK. So, you know how whenever someone makes fun of Melania Trump for being "a trophy wife" or cracks some joke about Rob Ford's weight, and people take exception with that? They do so not because Melania or Rob don't deserve criticism; they do so because the joke isn't "she's a woman who married a rich man" or "he is overweight". Same thing with Jenner. That's what makes the shit transphobic.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 12:50 PM on March 23, 2018 [24 favorites]
Just reading that made me feel sick.
posted by Kitteh at 12:54 PM on March 23, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:54 PM on March 23, 2018 [27 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments removed. savitarka, cut it out period with the "eh, it's not big deal" thing; you're wandering in late to defend transphobia and that's just not gonna fly. More generally, folks please focus more on flagging/contact form and less on upping the heat level, because once we get to "shut the fuck up" I basically have to shut the whole thing down regardless of whether you otherwise have a good point.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:01 PM on March 23, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:01 PM on March 23, 2018 [29 favorites]
And that’s why that joke isn’t transphobic.
It's like he studied at the James Corden School For Comics. Or vice versa.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 1:01 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's like he studied at the James Corden School For Comics. Or vice versa.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 1:01 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's subtle to see Shandling's behavior as compassionate, but he was clearly trying to knock some sense into Gervais.
Gary was a wise man. A Zen master but also an absolute maestro of fuckery.
posted by whuppy at 1:06 PM on March 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
Gary was a wise man. A Zen master but also an absolute maestro of fuckery.
posted by whuppy at 1:06 PM on March 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
And that’s why that joke isn’t transphobic.
Has hanging a lampshade and doing nothing else ever worked to soften a joke like that? I don't think so.
posted by atoxyl at 1:07 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Has hanging a lampshade and doing nothing else ever worked to soften a joke like that? I don't think so.
posted by atoxyl at 1:07 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Huh, I could say I got a strong impression of "pretending to be a bellend, but not really pretending" from Gervais on the 11 O'Clock show, but that would involve admitting to watching the 11 O'Clock show (I was a student)...
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:09 PM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:09 PM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
His joke about Caitlyn Jenner's driving at the golden globes was *somewhat* funny:
"She became a role model for trans people everywhere, showing great bravery in breaking down barriers and destroying stereotypes. She didn't do a lot for women drivers. But you can't have everything, can you? Not at the same time."
At least that bit wasn't trans-phobic, it was misogynistic though.
But that's the best I can say about Gervais. Sometimes he's somewhat funny, most of the time he's not.
posted by Pendragon at 1:12 PM on March 23, 2018
"She became a role model for trans people everywhere, showing great bravery in breaking down barriers and destroying stereotypes. She didn't do a lot for women drivers. But you can't have everything, can you? Not at the same time."
At least that bit wasn't trans-phobic, it was misogynistic though.
But that's the best I can say about Gervais. Sometimes he's somewhat funny, most of the time he's not.
posted by Pendragon at 1:12 PM on March 23, 2018
Re chimp routine.
What the everloving fuck.
posted by jaduncan at 1:13 PM on March 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
What the everloving fuck.
posted by jaduncan at 1:13 PM on March 23, 2018 [17 favorites]
I just tried to find a particular coherent quote about Gervais systematic bullying of Robin Ince (who is a very nice man, by the way) on tour but failed. Maybe this excerpt of an interview from somwhere, that I've just nicked unattributed from Reddit will do:
posted by Grangousier at 1:18 PM on March 23, 2018 [23 favorites]
Talking of Gervais, did Karl Pilkington replace you as his torture-monkey?In any case, Robin has described himself as having been variously Gervais' punchbag and toy, and someone else might be able to find something. It also seems that that's a role Gervais expects someone around him to fill - Karl Pilkington being a more recent example. I find the world distressing enough as it is without having to waste too much attention on someone so tediously unpleasant.
Karl, Nigel the editor and me were all there at pretty much the same time. The person I initially replaced was a friend of Ricky’s that he really used to bully, he used to make his life a misery. It’s the guy who now does the drawings for Flanimals. Anyway, he left the country, I think mainly because of the way Ricky treated him. Unfortunately, I met Ricky just after that.
But I have no envy of Karl Pilkington at all. When I got asked to do the last tour, Science, it was quite easy to turn down. I didn’t want to swap my mental health for money.
After the Fame tour I thought I’d never do anything with him again. Because it was monstrous, and it was horrible and bizarre. The way that everyone joined in, it really was very Lord of the Flies and of course I am very Piggy-like.
With the distance of time, I can kind of laugh at it but… today, as a parent, in my 40s, I don’t feel I could handle being squealed at constantly, having make up put on my face while a load of tech crew and Matt, his tour manager, dance around in a tribal manner.
That was one of those moments, when the money kept going up, and I said, no, I’m honestly not going to do it.
It’s amazing, when you turn down money. It’s a far better feeling than when you are making it – as long as you’ve got enough to survive, of course. You go, ‘Oh, what a relief’.
posted by Grangousier at 1:18 PM on March 23, 2018 [23 favorites]
Well... to find him offensive, I'd have to stop finding him so boring. I loved Extras, but outside that, he's often a 4 year old that learned to drop f-bombs, walking on the living room shouting it when the parents are with friends and then running away giggling. When it's not that, it's pointing out at things and laughing at them, and... I also have eyes, Ricky.
On the broader topic of comedy, it's (still) perfectly possible to get good material out of transgressive comedy. It is however extremely hard, and nobody going through that path can complain over the backlash for fucking it up. It's like a game of limbo where the bar is on fire. And after a while, the floor is made of hot coals. Eventually, lava.
Arguably, the problem with most of the "anti-pc brigade" is that it's like they're too drunk to understand they're struggling to stand up, let alone cross a limbo at barely shoulder height.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:18 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
On the broader topic of comedy, it's (still) perfectly possible to get good material out of transgressive comedy. It is however extremely hard, and nobody going through that path can complain over the backlash for fucking it up. It's like a game of limbo where the bar is on fire. And after a while, the floor is made of hot coals. Eventually, lava.
Arguably, the problem with most of the "anti-pc brigade" is that it's like they're too drunk to understand they're struggling to stand up, let alone cross a limbo at barely shoulder height.
posted by lmfsilva at 1:18 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Interesting to look at where some of the other people who worked on the Office ended up
Now Merchant seems to have been a bit quiet... but I've heard he's made/makes solid bank doing rewrites
Freeman: blockbuster films and tv and some solid critically acclaimed stuff like Fargo
Crook: blockbuster films and he's written and directed probably the best British sitcom of recent years in Detectorists (I urge everyone whose not seen it to check it out)
And The Office had very good character actors for it's minor parts
I'm not saying Gervais has no talent or made no contribution but it's significant that he's not done anything, imho, that's even remotely as good since. Anyone see the The Office film that got critically panned? (Trick question, nobody saw it).
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:23 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
Now Merchant seems to have been a bit quiet... but I've heard he's made/makes solid bank doing rewrites
Freeman: blockbuster films and tv and some solid critically acclaimed stuff like Fargo
Crook: blockbuster films and he's written and directed probably the best British sitcom of recent years in Detectorists (I urge everyone whose not seen it to check it out)
And The Office had very good character actors for it's minor parts
I'm not saying Gervais has no talent or made no contribution but it's significant that he's not done anything, imho, that's even remotely as good since. Anyone see the The Office film that got critically panned? (Trick question, nobody saw it).
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:23 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
Gervais systematic bullying of Robin Ince
I remember there being a lot of that on the commentary tracks of Gervais's first DVD (It was a Christmas present, don't judge me)
There was a interview with Merchant where he said he tried it on with him at the beginning of their working relationship and Merchant made it very clear it just wasn't going to happen and Gervais, like a typical bully who is a coward at heart, backed off immediately (I'm trying to remember they guy who was one of his initial punching bags - who he used to wrap up in gaffer tape or something - might actually have been Ince)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:32 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
I remember there being a lot of that on the commentary tracks of Gervais's first DVD (It was a Christmas present, don't judge me)
There was a interview with Merchant where he said he tried it on with him at the beginning of their working relationship and Merchant made it very clear it just wasn't going to happen and Gervais, like a typical bully who is a coward at heart, backed off immediately (I'm trying to remember they guy who was one of his initial punching bags - who he used to wrap up in gaffer tape or something - might actually have been Ince)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:32 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
The whole discussion here about his transphobic jokes has me wondering if there are any comedians who are trans. The closest I can think of offhand is Eddie Izzard and he’s always been pretty particular about describing himself as “a bloke in a dress” rather than “a woman”.
posted by egypturnash at 1:32 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by egypturnash at 1:32 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Bethany Black comes immediately to mind. [Guardian profile from a while back] I saw her in the Komedia in Brighton; she's good.
posted by jaduncan at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Flanimals always reminds me of the Garth Marenghi quote: 'I'm one of the few people you'll meet who's written more books than they've read.'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:43 PM on March 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:43 PM on March 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
I remember watching Gervais on Talking Funny back when that premiered on HBO, and thinking about how out of place he seemed with talented people.
When I started reading this thread, I went back and read the thread on Talking Funny, and there was a fantastic comment about the dynamics of that room:
When I started reading this thread, I went back and read the thread on Talking Funny, and there was a fantastic comment about the dynamics of that room:
While watching this I was charting which person every guy seems to think is the best in the room:posted by gladly at 1:46 PM on March 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
For Ricky it is Jerry
For Louis it is Chris
For Jerry it is Louis
For Chris it is Richard Pryor
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:35 PM on June 9, 2011
Britain’s self-appointed bad boy of comedy
This is not so mysterious. It happens all the time when your shtick is rebellion or anti-establishmentarianism of some kind and you make enough money or have enough success as you age to become part of said establishment, but don't adjust your attitudes accordingly. It's why, e.g., Morrissey has aged so heartbreakingly poorly. That smug is a particular warning sign, I think; if you're smug at 22, you're likely to be positively wallowing in your ignorance in middle age. See, e.g., Dennis Miller.
Karl Pilkington is older than me, though, and a professional producer living in London. At what age do you become responsible for the contents of your own head? And since when is a capacity for recognizing wondrous things Middle Class? If you spit on your opportunities to learn, no wonder you don't know anything. Let Gervais take my mom around the world, and she'll both enjoy it and shame him into better behavior with her kindness.
posted by praemunire at 1:48 PM on March 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
This is not so mysterious. It happens all the time when your shtick is rebellion or anti-establishmentarianism of some kind and you make enough money or have enough success as you age to become part of said establishment, but don't adjust your attitudes accordingly. It's why, e.g., Morrissey has aged so heartbreakingly poorly. That smug is a particular warning sign, I think; if you're smug at 22, you're likely to be positively wallowing in your ignorance in middle age. See, e.g., Dennis Miller.
Karl Pilkington is older than me, though, and a professional producer living in London. At what age do you become responsible for the contents of your own head? And since when is a capacity for recognizing wondrous things Middle Class? If you spit on your opportunities to learn, no wonder you don't know anything. Let Gervais take my mom around the world, and she'll both enjoy it and shame him into better behavior with her kindness.
posted by praemunire at 1:48 PM on March 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
More of just a gender-queer/gender-fluidity entry on the list maybe, but Rhea Butcher did a segment on the recent Two Dope Queens miniseries talking in part about being in a kind of flux right now reassessing their gender identity (on the heels of a story about their millionth or so trip down butch-lesbian-presentation-read-as-dude lane). I like their work a lot and thought that Take My Wife was a lot of fun and one of the worse losses when Seeso crapped the bed; I'm curious to see more of their work reflecting on how this plays out for them.
posted by cortex at 1:52 PM on March 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by cortex at 1:52 PM on March 23, 2018 [11 favorites]
Lara Rae is an out trans comedian. I know her from her many appearances on CBC’s The Debaters, but she’s done a bunch of other work, too. Here’s one of her Debaters appearances.
posted by Banknote of the year at 1:55 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Banknote of the year at 1:55 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
Gervais was always a terrible standup, as evidenced by his specials from a decade ago. His strength was creating and playing relatable assholes on sitcoms and, fair play to him, he was very successful at that.
But while that kind of humor can work as a young man punching up, it just seems crass, unkind, and unfunny coming from a very wealthy middle-aged person. It happens to a lot of comedians, it just hit Gervais harder due to his style and the fact that he was never that good in the first place.
posted by AndrewStephens at 1:56 PM on March 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
But while that kind of humor can work as a young man punching up, it just seems crass, unkind, and unfunny coming from a very wealthy middle-aged person. It happens to a lot of comedians, it just hit Gervais harder due to his style and the fact that he was never that good in the first place.
posted by AndrewStephens at 1:56 PM on March 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
Karl and Steven were always the best thing about their show and the podcast. I think of Karl's words often: "You can't solve anything by plannin'." Merchant is almost always a delight in anything he's in. (For example, his most recent appearance on Lovett or Leave It.
I think of Gervais not at all.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:12 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think of Gervais not at all.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:12 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
When he first came on my radar, on the 11 O'clock Show, I thought he was the unfunniest thing ever, like on the order of Chris Moyles or that bloke with the too wide face who makes jokes about gypsies and the poor. Me and my brother would zing each other about failed jokes by saying "You're about as funny as Ricky Gervais."
So when The Office came along it took me a while even to look at it, at which point it was hard not to admit that it was a masterpiece.
I felt foolish about our zinger for while but it soon came true again.
posted by Mocata at 2:18 PM on March 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
So when The Office came along it took me a while even to look at it, at which point it was hard not to admit that it was a masterpiece.
I felt foolish about our zinger for while but it soon came true again.
posted by Mocata at 2:18 PM on March 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
The lack of freedom to broadcast grossly offensive material, a law that has existed for fifteen years without comedy ceasing to exist, has been enforced. If the 2003 Act is such a threat to free speech, it has been remarkably slow in getting there.
Extras was brilliant, Derek was utterly repulsive, and the rest of Gervais' contributions have been somewhere in between according to my taste. But who cares, really? There's an idiot facing actual jail time for putting way too much effort into his stupid little Nazi joke. It may be worth remarking on that the law hasn't been much enforced before now, but it's not at all surprising: The people involved in making the decision to prosecute such a case must know that they'll be immediately, and not without justification, attacked by would-be defenders of comedic freedom even if they do wait for the most egregiously offensive example before taking action. Whatever eventually ensues, it will take time to get people used to it. It may or may not be some kind of slippery slope down which the whole Western world will follow such countries as are already at the bottom to the point where people like Gervais get into trouble with the law. One would hope not, but it's a possibility not so easily dismissed. There is obviously no shortage of people who find the worst of his humour well on the offensive side, which is what the law apparently prohibits.
Interesting to note that part 3 of the Garry Shandling video is "blocked in your country" on youtube when it thinks I'm in Canada. The other four parts are apparently fine, it's just part 3 that requires a proxy or vpn to watch from here. It's the part in which, at one point, there may be some very subtle suggestion that just perhaps Ricky takes a little more delight in making jokes about the holocaust, cerebral palsy, and racism than would be entirely wholesome and healthy. I imagine it was most likely some well-meaning soul trying to somehow protect him, rather than anyone at the BBC getting all censorial because Nazis are mentioned.
posted by sfenders at 2:28 PM on March 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
Extras was brilliant, Derek was utterly repulsive, and the rest of Gervais' contributions have been somewhere in between according to my taste. But who cares, really? There's an idiot facing actual jail time for putting way too much effort into his stupid little Nazi joke. It may be worth remarking on that the law hasn't been much enforced before now, but it's not at all surprising: The people involved in making the decision to prosecute such a case must know that they'll be immediately, and not without justification, attacked by would-be defenders of comedic freedom even if they do wait for the most egregiously offensive example before taking action. Whatever eventually ensues, it will take time to get people used to it. It may or may not be some kind of slippery slope down which the whole Western world will follow such countries as are already at the bottom to the point where people like Gervais get into trouble with the law. One would hope not, but it's a possibility not so easily dismissed. There is obviously no shortage of people who find the worst of his humour well on the offensive side, which is what the law apparently prohibits.
Interesting to note that part 3 of the Garry Shandling video is "blocked in your country" on youtube when it thinks I'm in Canada. The other four parts are apparently fine, it's just part 3 that requires a proxy or vpn to watch from here. It's the part in which, at one point, there may be some very subtle suggestion that just perhaps Ricky takes a little more delight in making jokes about the holocaust, cerebral palsy, and racism than would be entirely wholesome and healthy. I imagine it was most likely some well-meaning soul trying to somehow protect him, rather than anyone at the BBC getting all censorial because Nazis are mentioned.
posted by sfenders at 2:28 PM on March 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
I had the same experience as Mocata in that I remember being gobsmacked by his bits on the 11 O’clock show. I couldn’t quite believe what C4 were showing. It was woeful stuff.
I did enjoy The Office though. But I don’t think it’ll stand up to a rewatch. It pretended to have heart. My favourite bit was Brent finally telling bullying Finchy to fuck off.
I have never ever understood what folk find funny about Pilkington. The first I heard of him was when friends, whose taste I valued, showed me something of him. They made a big deal of how he was so innocent and didn’t realise how funny he was being. I’ve always been sure it was all an act. He’s just deadpan.
posted by gnuhavenpier at 2:31 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I did enjoy The Office though. But I don’t think it’ll stand up to a rewatch. It pretended to have heart. My favourite bit was Brent finally telling bullying Finchy to fuck off.
I have never ever understood what folk find funny about Pilkington. The first I heard of him was when friends, whose taste I valued, showed me something of him. They made a big deal of how he was so innocent and didn’t realise how funny he was being. I’ve always been sure it was all an act. He’s just deadpan.
posted by gnuhavenpier at 2:31 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
For me the slow realization has been not so much that Ricky Gervais was David Brent all along, but that The Office's structure deliberately allowed Gervais to make offensive jokes without any consequence.
Everything he's done since has been the same stuff but without the figleaf of "hey, Brent's a character" to shield him from blowback. I wonder if that's where the whole are-you-OFFENDED? persecution complex comes from: "you liked this stuff when I did it in The Office, why don't you like it now?"
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:47 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
Everything he's done since has been the same stuff but without the figleaf of "hey, Brent's a character" to shield him from blowback. I wonder if that's where the whole are-you-OFFENDED? persecution complex comes from: "you liked this stuff when I did it in The Office, why don't you like it now?"
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:47 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
part 3 that requires a proxy or vpn to watch from here. It's the part in which, at one point, there may be some very subtle suggestion that just perhaps Ricky takes a little more delight in making jokes about the holocaust, cerebral palsy, and racism than would be entirely wholesome and healthy.
First, thank you for this neat YT proxy. Beats firing up Opera for the sole purpose of its built-in VPN.
Second, wow. Gervais may be one of the most unself-aware people I've ever seen. Shandling just pulls the thread a tiny bit - "You get this gleam in your eye like you're being a naughty boy" when you do the Nazi and cerebral palsy jokes - and Gervais is just floundering. "I like to explore these uncomfortable moments", he says, to which Shandling asks the most natural question: "Why?" And why? "Because it's funny."
This he says, to this Jewish man, who just got done saying he believes he doesn't want to work with Jewish people. Gervais really doesn't have any kind of coherent ideas behind his comedy. Making people uncomfortable is, by his own description, the entire point. It's "funny".
I'm reminded of a scene from The Office where someone tells a racist joke that the one Black guy in the office found mildly amusing. Brent tries repeating it, and a white co-worker calls him out. Brent points to the Black guy and says "but he found it funny". The co-worker asks him if only Black people are permitted to call out racism. Brent is stumped, fidgets, has no reply.
I think of this scene often. At the time, I thought Gervais was making an excellent point about how white people will hide behind POC who agree with them when they get called out. In retrospect, I think he was actually trying to paint this co-worker as a humorless busybody. Gervais gets -this close- to actually getting it, and then decides not to. He is a master of willful obtuseness.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 3:02 PM on March 23, 2018 [28 favorites]
First, thank you for this neat YT proxy. Beats firing up Opera for the sole purpose of its built-in VPN.
Second, wow. Gervais may be one of the most unself-aware people I've ever seen. Shandling just pulls the thread a tiny bit - "You get this gleam in your eye like you're being a naughty boy" when you do the Nazi and cerebral palsy jokes - and Gervais is just floundering. "I like to explore these uncomfortable moments", he says, to which Shandling asks the most natural question: "Why?" And why? "Because it's funny."
This he says, to this Jewish man, who just got done saying he believes he doesn't want to work with Jewish people. Gervais really doesn't have any kind of coherent ideas behind his comedy. Making people uncomfortable is, by his own description, the entire point. It's "funny".
I'm reminded of a scene from The Office where someone tells a racist joke that the one Black guy in the office found mildly amusing. Brent tries repeating it, and a white co-worker calls him out. Brent points to the Black guy and says "but he found it funny". The co-worker asks him if only Black people are permitted to call out racism. Brent is stumped, fidgets, has no reply.
I think of this scene often. At the time, I thought Gervais was making an excellent point about how white people will hide behind POC who agree with them when they get called out. In retrospect, I think he was actually trying to paint this co-worker as a humorless busybody. Gervais gets -this close- to actually getting it, and then decides not to. He is a master of willful obtuseness.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 3:02 PM on March 23, 2018 [28 favorites]
Thank you all for the mentions of trans/genderqueer comedians, and especially for mention of Rhea Butcher, cortex.
I literally reached a day a month or two ago where I decided stand up is an irredeemable art form that universally raises up cruel white dudes, but then later the same afternoon that I reached this conclusion I found out Rhea Butcher was doing a show near me, and now I think comedy is really good again.
posted by elsilnora at 3:06 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
I literally reached a day a month or two ago where I decided stand up is an irredeemable art form that universally raises up cruel white dudes, but then later the same afternoon that I reached this conclusion I found out Rhea Butcher was doing a show near me, and now I think comedy is really good again.
posted by elsilnora at 3:06 PM on March 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
The most damning thing about this account of Gervais' fall is that it manages to be comprehensive without even mentioning Derek.
posted by anazgnos at 3:16 PM on March 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by anazgnos at 3:16 PM on March 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
Bethany Black, mentioned upthread, was also in an episode of Banana, which was created by Russell T Davies, and was really brilliant.
posted by threetwentytwo at 3:22 PM on March 23, 2018
posted by threetwentytwo at 3:22 PM on March 23, 2018
Chris Morris made the best comedy in twenty years with Four Lions
That’s a bit of a hot take you’ve buried in there, but I guess if you’re trying to make up accolades for contemporaries you need to go a bit more over the top than “wrote a well–received edgy comedy.”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:43 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
That’s a bit of a hot take you’ve buried in there, but I guess if you’re trying to make up accolades for contemporaries you need to go a bit more over the top than “wrote a well–received edgy comedy.”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:43 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't associate Gervais with the Ianunnci crowd at all, they aren't peers.
posted by rhizome at 3:52 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 3:52 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
I always found Gervais to be more David Brent than he's comfortable admitting, but when I really got off on him was when he and Stephen Merchant were doing a tribute sketch for the Two Ronnies and it was all about their own ego.
Knobs the both of them.
posted by MartinWisse at 4:16 PM on March 23, 2018
Knobs the both of them.
posted by MartinWisse at 4:16 PM on March 23, 2018
he came across like a juvenile
That's the thing. He goes through phases where he seems to have a mental age of twelve. All the name calling and bullying, and all the vanity, the tantrums and ganging up. It's so childish. That's what makes it worse.
posted by Grangousier at 4:22 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's the thing. He goes through phases where he seems to have a mental age of twelve. All the name calling and bullying, and all the vanity, the tantrums and ganging up. It's so childish. That's what makes it worse.
posted by Grangousier at 4:22 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Mod note: PLEASE FLAG THE SHIT WHERE PEOPLE ARE REHASHING THINGS CORTEX DELETED AND TOLD PEOPLE TO DROP, DON'T RE-RESPOND TO IT IN WAYS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN DELETED. There were zero flags on that latest round of anti-trans bigotry so it's just by luck I happened to be catching up on the thread. Relatedly, deleted a rehash of "oh but it wasn't offensive because ..."
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 4:32 PM on March 23, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 4:32 PM on March 23, 2018 [22 favorites]
He doesn't understand the line between being offensive and actually hurting people.
posted by Catbunny at 4:38 PM on March 23, 2018
posted by Catbunny at 4:38 PM on March 23, 2018
There's a scene in Extras where Ricky Gervais' character, Andy Millman, after having acheived a modicum of fame after landing the lead role in a hacky, catchphrase-driven sitcom, is hanging out at an upscale bar and sees David Bowie (played by the actual David Bowie). Millman approaches Bowie, hoping to parlay his recent sitcom success in order to relate to him on a celebrity-to-celebrity level. Instead, Bowie picks up on how sad, terrible, and/or pathetic Millman is and heads over to the piano and, on the spot (and with some help with some bystanders), composes a song that is basically a whole-hearted roast of him. By the end of the scene, the whole bar is singing along to the song as Millman slinks off.
In some ways, I found that scene somehow less brutal than the Garry Shandling interview. In the show, Bowie barely registers Andy Millman as an actual person, rather picking up on his pathetic, sell-out nature and roasting that. Shandling, on the other hand, is straight-up roasting Ricky Gervais himself in the moment and on a really personal level. Shandling actually does let up on him a bit towards the end but I found it to be a bit of a tough watch. And, it's not just Shandling's needling of Gervais. There are a few times where Gervais tries to joke around with Shandling and he just totally bombs. Like, utterly. Gervais tries to play it off but, man, those were pretty rough.
posted by mhum at 4:56 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
In some ways, I found that scene somehow less brutal than the Garry Shandling interview. In the show, Bowie barely registers Andy Millman as an actual person, rather picking up on his pathetic, sell-out nature and roasting that. Shandling, on the other hand, is straight-up roasting Ricky Gervais himself in the moment and on a really personal level. Shandling actually does let up on him a bit towards the end but I found it to be a bit of a tough watch. And, it's not just Shandling's needling of Gervais. There are a few times where Gervais tries to joke around with Shandling and he just totally bombs. Like, utterly. Gervais tries to play it off but, man, those were pretty rough.
posted by mhum at 4:56 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
I actually realized that there is one thing I've seen where I like Ricky Gervais - the time that there was an interview with him and Elmo after he was on Sesame Street. Because there are moments where Elmo actually gets the better of him.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:08 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:08 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think there was some small but genuine regret on the part of Shandling for the way the Gervais interview went, or at least that's the way it seemed when he was on Pete Holmes' You Made it Weird podcast just before he died. That could be posthumous misinterpretation on my part.
Derail but actual tragedy: They're closing Meltdown? What the hell?
posted by elsietheeel at 5:15 PM on March 23, 2018
Derail but actual tragedy: They're closing Meltdown? What the hell?
posted by elsietheeel at 5:15 PM on March 23, 2018
That Garry Shandling interview is fascinating to watch, it's almost like an intervention to get Gervais to drop the act. He's talking about how in his head he is within two minutes, then this bit later talking about the face people put on, and the clip at the end of that section.
posted by lucidium at 5:40 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by lucidium at 5:40 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Mod note: I think at this point trying to compare to Chapelle's jokes is misreading the room and missing the discussion of the very specific offenses of Gervais's jokes.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 6:25 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 6:25 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
So there was some research recently I found fascinating, about how people who feel power have their capacity for empathy atrophy. It's why wise leaders in fiction usually have the stock character of the one person who's always able to take them down a peg, and in real life our most admired leaders always seem to have family members who keep them grounded. (e.g. Barack Obama has spoken multiple times about Michelle insisting he clean up after himself.)
Gervais' career has been all about being that guy who's above it all. Extras is a really weird career transition for him in this light, because a lot of the humour in that show is about his mediocre character who's found fame from a bad show, but is just relentlessly bullied by other celebrities for it, so any kind of vulnerability he's feeling is kind of undercut by the astonishing cruelty he's depicting. Like, take that David Bowie bit above. The truth of that situation isn't 'David Bowie gets annoyed about a hanger-on and dismisses him in a comically heightened way' - David Bowie humiliates him by composing, on the fly, a brilliant little song that's a personal attack on his appearance. It's a comically heightened version of 'successful people bully those they don't like' which is a) not true most of the time and b) super revealing.
He clearly didn't have a lot of empathy even going into The Office, but it clearly got crushed pretty early on by people treating Ricky Gervais, man who avoids being taken down a peg, as an unimpeachable genius. Without that empathy, I don't know if comedy is possible; you've got to be able to at least anticipate how your jokes are going to land.
posted by Merus at 6:48 PM on March 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
Gervais' career has been all about being that guy who's above it all. Extras is a really weird career transition for him in this light, because a lot of the humour in that show is about his mediocre character who's found fame from a bad show, but is just relentlessly bullied by other celebrities for it, so any kind of vulnerability he's feeling is kind of undercut by the astonishing cruelty he's depicting. Like, take that David Bowie bit above. The truth of that situation isn't 'David Bowie gets annoyed about a hanger-on and dismisses him in a comically heightened way' - David Bowie humiliates him by composing, on the fly, a brilliant little song that's a personal attack on his appearance. It's a comically heightened version of 'successful people bully those they don't like' which is a) not true most of the time and b) super revealing.
He clearly didn't have a lot of empathy even going into The Office, but it clearly got crushed pretty early on by people treating Ricky Gervais, man who avoids being taken down a peg, as an unimpeachable genius. Without that empathy, I don't know if comedy is possible; you've got to be able to at least anticipate how your jokes are going to land.
posted by Merus at 6:48 PM on March 23, 2018 [19 favorites]
It's a comically heightened version of 'successful people bully those they don't like' which is a) not true most of the time and b) super revealing.
Oh wow. I had never put it together like that, but your second point about how revealing this is about Gervais' own personality is really making a bunch of things click together for me.
posted by mhum at 7:21 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh wow. I had never put it together like that, but your second point about how revealing this is about Gervais' own personality is really making a bunch of things click together for me.
posted by mhum at 7:21 PM on March 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
clavicle: "Metafilter's own Avery Edison"
Wait, Avery Edison is on MeFi? I wouldn't have guessed that. Or is this another "MeFi's own" joke I'm not following?
posted by saltbush and olive at 7:32 PM on March 23, 2018
Wait, Avery Edison is on MeFi? I wouldn't have guessed that. Or is this another "MeFi's own" joke I'm not following?
posted by saltbush and olive at 7:32 PM on March 23, 2018
I've seen a few things pointing out that standup was never a strength for Ricky Gervais, to begin with...but I've also noticed a lot of famous comics (comedy-adjacent persons?) whining about people being too PC nowadays to appreciate their humor. This is usually a sign that they've aged out of ( or wealth has alienated them from) the zeitgeist. Honestly, Twitter's pile-on at Gervais is the most hopeful thing I've seen in a while. I don't know that I hold much hope for Gervais, but maybe it'll make other people consider "the problem is you" explanation next time they fail.
(I never wanted to give Stephen Merchant all the credit for Gervais because I knew he wasn't involved with Ghost Town, and I love Ghost Town. But...I just looked it up, and I guess Gervais didn't write it either. I don't know why they cast him, then?? Tea Leoni deserved better.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:15 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
(I never wanted to give Stephen Merchant all the credit for Gervais because I knew he wasn't involved with Ghost Town, and I love Ghost Town. But...I just looked it up, and I guess Gervais didn't write it either. I don't know why they cast him, then?? Tea Leoni deserved better.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:15 PM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ricky Gervais couldn't be funny even if he put on a clown suit and fell down a hole.
posted by loquacious at 9:35 PM on March 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 9:35 PM on March 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
So I just googled Bethany Black and found this (NSFW) and it had me laughing harder than I have in a while. So maybe check her out.
posted by suetanvil at 9:48 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by suetanvil at 9:48 PM on March 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Gervais supporting Dankula does not surprise me in the least. While The Office was inspired at the time, Gervais will forever remain his 11 o’clock show appearances in the 90s for me. A guy with simplistic observations and a sneer who was difficult to disambiguate from the person behind them.
Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse do a very good sketch about him (apologies for mobile link) Enfield and Whitehouse have become very sharp since their earlier work and I approve of that trajectory.
posted by davemee at 10:49 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse do a very good sketch about him (apologies for mobile link) Enfield and Whitehouse have become very sharp since their earlier work and I approve of that trajectory.
posted by davemee at 10:49 PM on March 23, 2018 [4 favorites]
Or is this another "MeFi's own" joke I'm not following?
Nope, she's been a member for a good long while now.
posted by cortex at 11:31 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Nope, she's been a member for a good long while now.
posted by cortex at 11:31 PM on March 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think in a British, and especially a BBC context, Gervais benefitted from some confused ideas about challenging/controversial stuff necessarily being good and about the vexed notion of balance (hey, you can’t say we’re too PC because look, we’re being edgy about disability too).
His success in the US is mystifying to me and I cannot help thinking that American audiences have often read him quite differently, seeing things that a Brit audience didn’t, and not seeing things that Brits did (don’t ask me to list them, though). Where the British Office was the ultimate comedy of embarrassment, the superficially similar American version seemed to me to replace that essential humour with a more traditional, less cringe-centred variety. Same characters, same set-up, completely different show.
posted by Segundus at 12:58 AM on March 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
His success in the US is mystifying to me and I cannot help thinking that American audiences have often read him quite differently, seeing things that a Brit audience didn’t, and not seeing things that Brits did (don’t ask me to list them, though). Where the British Office was the ultimate comedy of embarrassment, the superficially similar American version seemed to me to replace that essential humour with a more traditional, less cringe-centred variety. Same characters, same set-up, completely different show.
posted by Segundus at 12:58 AM on March 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Now Merchant seems to have been a bit quiet... but I've heard he's made/makes solid bank doing rewrites
He also had a rather significant role in Logan, and turned in a genuinely effective, really heartbreaking dramatic performance. I’m increasingly of the opinion that Gervais lucked into a profound, legitimate talent with Merchant and is flailing without him as Merchant quietly goes about establishing his bona fides as a solo act.
posted by maxsparber at 5:22 AM on March 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
He also had a rather significant role in Logan, and turned in a genuinely effective, really heartbreaking dramatic performance. I’m increasingly of the opinion that Gervais lucked into a profound, legitimate talent with Merchant and is flailing without him as Merchant quietly goes about establishing his bona fides as a solo act.
posted by maxsparber at 5:22 AM on March 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Where the British Office was the ultimate comedy of embarrassment, the superficially similar American version seemed to me to replace that essential humour with a more traditional, less cringe-centred variety. Same characters, same set-up, completely different show.
From my memory of the two, the US version of The Office is interesting partly because it started out charting a really similar template in the first season—different cast and different details, sure, but you could really go down a checklist hitting all the little beats and dynamics and character roles they were either bringing over directly or aggressively resynthesizing—and then grew into its own thing from there.
And it's hard not to see some of that being that with Steve Carell as Michael Scott, there was an underlying element of genuine likability, of, you might say, humanity, in the character and performance that drove a more sympathetic angle on the proceedings. Michael is just as deluded and out of his depth and socially and professionally ill-equipped to run the office as David Brent, and just as capable of being of profoundly cringe-inducing asshole, but you still go the feeling watching Carell do it that under it all Michael was a confused but decent human being; whereas under it all David Brent seemed to be just nothing, no core or except at his rare most naked moments a sad person aware he had had no defensible core. The most humanity David Brent ever showed was a smoldering realization that he wasn't any better than the worst people he spent time with.
I can't take that as far as reading who Ricky Gervais is through his television character—that hollowness to David Brent could as easily be diagnostic of Gervais understanding the idea of Brent's fundamental awfulness as it could diagnostic of Gervais essentially playing himself—but as much as I think the US Office ended up being softer and kinder partly just because it was on US television, I think it also reflects a degree of what happens when the person behaving poorly is more readable as a decent person struggling.
posted by cortex at 9:15 AM on March 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
From my memory of the two, the US version of The Office is interesting partly because it started out charting a really similar template in the first season—different cast and different details, sure, but you could really go down a checklist hitting all the little beats and dynamics and character roles they were either bringing over directly or aggressively resynthesizing—and then grew into its own thing from there.
And it's hard not to see some of that being that with Steve Carell as Michael Scott, there was an underlying element of genuine likability, of, you might say, humanity, in the character and performance that drove a more sympathetic angle on the proceedings. Michael is just as deluded and out of his depth and socially and professionally ill-equipped to run the office as David Brent, and just as capable of being of profoundly cringe-inducing asshole, but you still go the feeling watching Carell do it that under it all Michael was a confused but decent human being; whereas under it all David Brent seemed to be just nothing, no core or except at his rare most naked moments a sad person aware he had had no defensible core. The most humanity David Brent ever showed was a smoldering realization that he wasn't any better than the worst people he spent time with.
I can't take that as far as reading who Ricky Gervais is through his television character—that hollowness to David Brent could as easily be diagnostic of Gervais understanding the idea of Brent's fundamental awfulness as it could diagnostic of Gervais essentially playing himself—but as much as I think the US Office ended up being softer and kinder partly just because it was on US television, I think it also reflects a degree of what happens when the person behaving poorly is more readable as a decent person struggling.
posted by cortex at 9:15 AM on March 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Karl Pilkington is older than me, though, and a professional producer living in London. At what age do you become responsible for the contents of your own head? And since when is a capacity for recognizing wondrous things Middle Class? If you spit on your opportunities to learn, no wonder you don't know anything. Let Gervais take my mom around the world, and she'll both enjoy it and shame him into better behavior with her kindness.
I think this really unfair - as everydayanewday says upthread:
(spoiler: it's from growing up in a world where your opportunities will be limited and you won't have the chance to go anywhere or do anything EVER, so you concentrate on the life and the community you have).
Now imagine that coping mechanism for an entire system designed to keep you in your place, carrying across entire communities for generations. Travel for a long time was a train trip to the local damp seaside resort, and now is often a trip to a resort in Spain with your big gang of mates where you interact mostly with other English people, eat the same food as home, read the same tabloids as home, and watch the same football matches as home, but get sunburnt while doing it.
Plus he absolutely does change as the series goes on, even if he denies it, as seen in the great episode where he goes to Japan and compares Zen Buddhism to a house he knew he wanted to live in straight away, enjoys the tea ceremony ("in a way I quite like the way they made a big deal out of something that was so simple"), climbs Mt Fuji after making it through a crisis of confidence he compares to not being able to finish his mother-in-law's enormous Sunday dinners, and finishes by comparing travel unfavourably to biscuits ("eventually you're gonna run out of places to visit, whereas biscuits - there's loads of em"). He's a wiser man that Gervais will ever be.
posted by kersplunk at 9:46 AM on March 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
I think this really unfair - as everydayanewday says upthread:
(spoiler: it's from growing up in a world where your opportunities will be limited and you won't have the chance to go anywhere or do anything EVER, so you concentrate on the life and the community you have).
Now imagine that coping mechanism for an entire system designed to keep you in your place, carrying across entire communities for generations. Travel for a long time was a train trip to the local damp seaside resort, and now is often a trip to a resort in Spain with your big gang of mates where you interact mostly with other English people, eat the same food as home, read the same tabloids as home, and watch the same football matches as home, but get sunburnt while doing it.
Plus he absolutely does change as the series goes on, even if he denies it, as seen in the great episode where he goes to Japan and compares Zen Buddhism to a house he knew he wanted to live in straight away, enjoys the tea ceremony ("in a way I quite like the way they made a big deal out of something that was so simple"), climbs Mt Fuji after making it through a crisis of confidence he compares to not being able to finish his mother-in-law's enormous Sunday dinners, and finishes by comparing travel unfavourably to biscuits ("eventually you're gonna run out of places to visit, whereas biscuits - there's loads of em"). He's a wiser man that Gervais will ever be.
posted by kersplunk at 9:46 AM on March 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
Might I just say re idiomatic britlang
"got off on" - got excited about to the point of completion
"went off, went off of" - started disliking
posted by glasseyes at 9:46 AM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
"got off on" - got excited about to the point of completion
"went off, went off of" - started disliking
posted by glasseyes at 9:46 AM on March 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was done with Gervais after The Office. I'm not a cringe-type person, and am amazed at how many other people apparently don't have to deal with or have such a high threshold for actual shitty people that watching fictional shitty people has an entertainment value for them. But that's a taste thing, and different strokes. Where I said "Fuck that guy." was in the Christmas special where Brent's replacement/nemesis/antithesis, who's been portrayed as a completely decent person, uncharacteristically laughs as that other prick calls Brent's new girlfriend a dog. The whole special feels really cynical, like Gervais wanted to make Brent (And by extension, Gervais - that probably was not a stretch to play) sympathetic and give him a redemptive arc & unearned happy ending.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:54 AM on March 24, 2018
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:54 AM on March 24, 2018
Plus he absolutely does change as the series goes on, even if he denies it, as seen in the great episode where he goes to Japan and compares Zen Buddhism to a house he knew he wanted to live in straight away, enjoys the tea ceremony ("in a way I quite like the way they made a big deal out of something that was so simple"), climbs Mt Fuji after making it through a crisis of confidence he compares to not being able to finish his mother-in-law's enormous Sunday dinners, and finishes by comparing travel unfavourably to biscuits ("eventually you're gonna run out of places to visit, whereas biscuits - there's loads of em"). He's a wiser man that Gervais will ever be.
This is what I noticed when I watched An Idiot Abroad. There were little moments where Karl got it. It wasn't a sweeping Eat Pray Love moment where his entire worldview was changed because oh sensitive middle class oh I've just been travelling you knowwww whatevahhh, but he DID make connections with people and get something out of his travels, and Gervais knows that, which is why he doubled down on the STUPID STUPID STUPID comments so he could diminish the things that Karl accomplished and big himself up. That's all Gervais wants... he's a sad little man with no self-confidence and he does what so many of us with no self-esteem and no self-awareness do to feel better about ourselves - belittle others.
posted by elsietheeel at 9:55 AM on March 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
This is what I noticed when I watched An Idiot Abroad. There were little moments where Karl got it. It wasn't a sweeping Eat Pray Love moment where his entire worldview was changed because oh sensitive middle class oh I've just been travelling you knowwww whatevahhh, but he DID make connections with people and get something out of his travels, and Gervais knows that, which is why he doubled down on the STUPID STUPID STUPID comments so he could diminish the things that Karl accomplished and big himself up. That's all Gervais wants... he's a sad little man with no self-confidence and he does what so many of us with no self-esteem and no self-awareness do to feel better about ourselves - belittle others.
posted by elsietheeel at 9:55 AM on March 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
Karl is a wise fool. I love him.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 3:28 PM on March 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by overeducated_alligator at 3:28 PM on March 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
So, I made a comment in this thread yesterday that was deleted; I had intended the comment to be critical of Gervais and transphobia, but when I looked back at what I had written, I realized that I very carelessly, and thoughtlessly said something offensive -- the exact opposite of what I meant to do and exactly what I was criticizing Gervais for. I rattled the comment off quickly and did not stop to think about my wording or even look closely at what I was saying, but that is no excuse. I should have known better in the first place and never have been in the position of being so ignorant and uncaring that I'd say something stupid in the first place. I know that the comment was pretty quickly deleted, and probably not many people even read it, but regardless, it was a humbling moment that reminded me that I need to be a lot more careful about the language I use. In that sense, I'm thankful that it happened because I obviously needed the lesson. I am very sorry to anyone who may have read it and been upset, and to anyone else whose been troubled by anything in this thread. It's a hard enough subject to deal with w/o bumbling so-called "allies" like saying and doing stupid shit when we're trying to be "helpful," so I'm going to try harder to listen to others and reflect first.
Love to all of you.
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:32 PM on March 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Love to all of you.
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:32 PM on March 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
I rewatched some of the Shandling thing earlier and it's still staggering..
You're not joking. "Are you controlling, do you not think I know how to put in my contacts?" Damn son.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:33 PM on March 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
You're not joking. "Are you controlling, do you not think I know how to put in my contacts?" Damn son.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:33 PM on March 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Now imagine that coping mechanism for an entire system designed to keep you in your place, carrying across entire communities for generations.
I'm not sure why you think I need to "imagine" the working-class experience? Mefi is not entirely populated with folks who are tertiary-degree-holders going three generations back. Nonetheless, again: a man living in London, neither a child nor a senior, and earning a decent living. He's had options. No doubt part of the reason he's chosen to close himself off to everything else (or to play that shtick; I admit there's ambiguity) is that, despite being working-class, he's been taught all his life that being a white male Englishman is all you really need.
Travel for a long time was a train trip to the local damp seaside resort, and now is often a trip to a resort in Spain with your big gang of mates where you interact mostly with other English people, eat the same food as home, read the same tabloids as home, and watch the same football matches as home, but get sunburnt while doing it.
A set of deliberate choices to remain ignorant when you are literally surrounded by chances to try all sorts of new things in a low-stakes environment reflects on a grown-up's character. It just does. An open mind and curiosity are not things the working class can only affect as performative striving.
Of course, choosing a jerk as your foil, as Gervais does, isn't the greatest signal of your own security in your ability to sell your viewpoint.
posted by praemunire at 9:09 PM on March 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure why you think I need to "imagine" the working-class experience? Mefi is not entirely populated with folks who are tertiary-degree-holders going three generations back. Nonetheless, again: a man living in London, neither a child nor a senior, and earning a decent living. He's had options. No doubt part of the reason he's chosen to close himself off to everything else (or to play that shtick; I admit there's ambiguity) is that, despite being working-class, he's been taught all his life that being a white male Englishman is all you really need.
Travel for a long time was a train trip to the local damp seaside resort, and now is often a trip to a resort in Spain with your big gang of mates where you interact mostly with other English people, eat the same food as home, read the same tabloids as home, and watch the same football matches as home, but get sunburnt while doing it.
A set of deliberate choices to remain ignorant when you are literally surrounded by chances to try all sorts of new things in a low-stakes environment reflects on a grown-up's character. It just does. An open mind and curiosity are not things the working class can only affect as performative striving.
Of course, choosing a jerk as your foil, as Gervais does, isn't the greatest signal of your own security in your ability to sell your viewpoint.
posted by praemunire at 9:09 PM on March 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Holy mother of god if you haven't watched the "Ricky Gervais Meets... Garry Shandling" yet it is exactly as brutal as advertised. He just doesn't stop putting his foot in his mouth over and over again and Shandling is so quick witted and sharp tongued about it. HIs comedic genius is to make explicit the meaning of the awkwardness that for Gervais, on shows like The Office, would be left silent and explored through pregnant looks and glances. Instead Shandling just says out loud how much of a dick Gervais is and keeps warning him to stop digging the hole now before it's too late for him to climb out of it. Instead Gervais just keeps digging because he's an insufferable chad.
posted by dis_integration at 10:13 PM on March 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 10:13 PM on March 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
I am staggered by that Shandling clip.
Gervais is completely clueless. Completely - he's unable to read the room. At all.
Wow.
posted by parki at 3:59 AM on March 25, 2018
Gervais is completely clueless. Completely - he's unable to read the room. At all.
Wow.
posted by parki at 3:59 AM on March 25, 2018
I'm not sure why you think I need to "imagine" the working-class experience? Mefi is not entirely populated with folks who are tertiary-degree-holders going three generations back. Nonetheless, again: a man living in London, neither a child nor a senior, and earning a decent living. He's had options. No doubt part of the reason he's chosen to close himself off to everything else (or to play that shtick; I admit there's ambiguity) is that, despite being working-class, he's been taught all his life that being a white male Englishman is all you really need.
I think we're talking past each other a bit. I'm from a commuter town just outside a small industrial city, my dad was a factory worker, and my nine uncles' occupations were factory worker x 6, carpenter, musician (dead at 21), and misc (dead of an overdose in his 30's). I was 18 the first time I ever had food in a restaurant (in 2000) and 19 the first time I went abroad for a holiday (in 2001, although I was abroad for a religious pilgrimage when I was 15). I went to college on several scholarships and met lots of people from very different backgrounds to me, many of whom are now lifelong friends. They put ideas in my head for things like going skiing in the Alps that in my mind wasn't something I could ever do.
My parents have had what many would consider tough lives (for example my dad's factory went on strike for 14 weeks when I was 8, and I blame the insane overtime he did to try to make up the loss for his first stroke a couple of years later, and my mam is down three brothers at this stage, including one who died in horrendous suffering brought about by the long term effects of chemicals he had to work with) but they are basically content people thankful for what they've got and living in a strong community. I don't think they're subconsciously waiting for a holiday somewhere to improve them as people.
I don't dump on people from home if they have a limited worldview (or even country-view). The Germans had a great phrase after the fall of the Berlin Wall: "the wall in your mind" to describe the paralysis and fatalism of those in the East who had been resigned to mere survival for so long and couldn't readjust to the new reality. Karl seems like a good guy. He doesn't need to chase anything except his happiness and the happiness of those near him.
posted by kersplunk at 4:00 PM on March 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think we're talking past each other a bit. I'm from a commuter town just outside a small industrial city, my dad was a factory worker, and my nine uncles' occupations were factory worker x 6, carpenter, musician (dead at 21), and misc (dead of an overdose in his 30's). I was 18 the first time I ever had food in a restaurant (in 2000) and 19 the first time I went abroad for a holiday (in 2001, although I was abroad for a religious pilgrimage when I was 15). I went to college on several scholarships and met lots of people from very different backgrounds to me, many of whom are now lifelong friends. They put ideas in my head for things like going skiing in the Alps that in my mind wasn't something I could ever do.
My parents have had what many would consider tough lives (for example my dad's factory went on strike for 14 weeks when I was 8, and I blame the insane overtime he did to try to make up the loss for his first stroke a couple of years later, and my mam is down three brothers at this stage, including one who died in horrendous suffering brought about by the long term effects of chemicals he had to work with) but they are basically content people thankful for what they've got and living in a strong community. I don't think they're subconsciously waiting for a holiday somewhere to improve them as people.
I don't dump on people from home if they have a limited worldview (or even country-view). The Germans had a great phrase after the fall of the Berlin Wall: "the wall in your mind" to describe the paralysis and fatalism of those in the East who had been resigned to mere survival for so long and couldn't readjust to the new reality. Karl seems like a good guy. He doesn't need to chase anything except his happiness and the happiness of those near him.
posted by kersplunk at 4:00 PM on March 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
Gervais does a lot of work for animal rights and vegetarianism and all that class of thing, which I consider a Net Good and therefore support, and in the broadest "late night dorm room conversation" sense widely engages on a number of others ideas that I fundamentally agree with, but...yeah. He's an obnoxious dimwit.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:21 PM on March 25, 2018
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:21 PM on March 25, 2018
As a vegan, Gervais’s animal rights work is on par with how I feel about PETA: I get the good you’re trying to do, but stop being horrible when you help.
posted by Kitteh at 6:07 AM on March 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 6:07 AM on March 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
There are vegan organic neo-Nazi apple farmers. Still Nazis.
posted by clawsoon at 7:15 AM on March 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:15 AM on March 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
'And that’s why that joke isn’t transphobic'
When I heard this the first time I thought Gervais was going to do some clever switcheroo at the end to indicate that what he had just said was a way of outing the scumbags in the audience. But no, no it wasn't. It was a way of outing the scumbag on the stage. Again.
posted by asok at 3:28 PM on March 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
When I heard this the first time I thought Gervais was going to do some clever switcheroo at the end to indicate that what he had just said was a way of outing the scumbags in the audience. But no, no it wasn't. It was a way of outing the scumbag on the stage. Again.
posted by asok at 3:28 PM on March 26, 2018 [2 favorites]
Making people cringe in embarrassment for your gaucheness is not comedy.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 9:53 PM on March 26, 2018
posted by HiroProtagonist at 9:53 PM on March 26, 2018
Lindy West in the New York Times: The World Is Evolving and Ricky Gervais Isn’t
posted by Lexica at 11:47 AM on March 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 11:47 AM on March 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
“People see something they don’t like and they expect it to stop,” Gervais says in “Humanity.” “The world is getting worse. Don’t get me wrong, I think I’ve lived through the best 50 years of humanity. 1960 through 2015, the peak of civilization for everything. For tolerances, for freedoms, for communication, for medicine! And now it’s going the other way a little bit.”
YES AND YOU'RE THE ONE THAT'S MAKING IT DO THAT YOU DAFT GIT.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:59 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
YES AND YOU'RE THE ONE THAT'S MAKING IT DO THAT YOU DAFT GIT.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:59 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
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posted by agregoli at 10:04 AM on March 23, 2018 [1 favorite]