Conservation Dilemma
April 17, 2018 6:06 AM Subscribe
Hunt with a bow and arrow. It's more of a challenge, the seasons are longer and the woods are less crowded with other hunters.
posted by bwvol at 6:36 AM on April 17, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by bwvol at 6:36 AM on April 17, 2018 [22 favorites]
Also, to pay for conservation, there is a very simple solution: raise taxes on rich people.
posted by rockindata at 6:36 AM on April 17, 2018 [61 favorites]
posted by rockindata at 6:36 AM on April 17, 2018 [61 favorites]
If you're interested in supporting conservation efforts, you could always buy a duck stamp. You don't need to be a hunter to buy one, and paying for one gets you access to all National Wildlife Refuges for free that would otherwise charge an entry fee. According to a brochure I got a couple weeks ago, 98% of the purchase price of the stamp goes directly towards acquiring new conservation lands (which seems like one of the most cost-efficient conservation efforts from an overhead perspective).
Another fun fact about the stamps - US Fish and Wildlife run a competition each year for the art that goes on the stamp. It's the only federally-sponsored art competition in the US! They have a collection of previous stamp art that goes on tour occasionally.
posted by backseatpilot at 6:44 AM on April 17, 2018 [54 favorites]
Another fun fact about the stamps - US Fish and Wildlife run a competition each year for the art that goes on the stamp. It's the only federally-sponsored art competition in the US! They have a collection of previous stamp art that goes on tour occasionally.
posted by backseatpilot at 6:44 AM on April 17, 2018 [54 favorites]
So, are we worried about dogs getting prion disease?
If not, then it's better to kill deer and feed them to dogs than to let the highway system do it.
(Glad I'm not in WI, but thanks to Walker, we can expect CWD to spread to my neck of the woods too..)
posted by ocschwar at 6:55 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
If not, then it's better to kill deer and feed them to dogs than to let the highway system do it.
(Glad I'm not in WI, but thanks to Walker, we can expect CWD to spread to my neck of the woods too..)
posted by ocschwar at 6:55 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Actual situation where we need more good guys with guns.
posted by Glomar response at 7:04 AM on April 17, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Glomar response at 7:04 AM on April 17, 2018 [12 favorites]
It's weird. I keep telling people around here that hunting is on the decline and they just don't believe it. It's like a "does not compute" situation.
posted by selfnoise at 7:13 AM on April 17, 2018
posted by selfnoise at 7:13 AM on April 17, 2018
Also, to pay for conservation, there is a very simple solution: raise taxes on rich people.
Or, more in keeping with the current practice of taxing those who consume the resource, tax sales of hiking boots, and camping equipment. But taxing the rich directly is probably better.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:22 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Or, more in keeping with the current practice of taxing those who consume the resource, tax sales of hiking boots, and camping equipment. But taxing the rich directly is probably better.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:22 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
...taxing those who consume the resource, tax sales of hiking boots, and camping equipment.
People who hike and camp don't consume the resource, that's done by property developers. Making land incompatible with wildlife necessitates spending money on "managing" the wildlife that is squeezed into smaller and smaller areas.
posted by 445supermag at 7:32 AM on April 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
People who hike and camp don't consume the resource, that's done by property developers. Making land incompatible with wildlife necessitates spending money on "managing" the wildlife that is squeezed into smaller and smaller areas.
posted by 445supermag at 7:32 AM on April 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
People who hike and camp don't consume the resource, that's done by property developers.
That is demonstrably untrue. The wear and tear and trash and water usage and vehicular emissions of park visitors have a major impact.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:36 AM on April 17, 2018 [16 favorites]
That is demonstrably untrue. The wear and tear and trash and water usage and vehicular emissions of park visitors have a major impact.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:36 AM on April 17, 2018 [16 favorites]
> US Fish and Wildlife run a competition each year for the art that goes on the stamp. It's the only federally-sponsored art competition in the US!posted by cardioid at 7:39 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]And it looks like there are multiple denominations, from the link you provided. But how many are there? Is this the competition Norm is in, in Fargo?
I mean, there are ducks on both of the entries mentioned.
It's weird. I keep telling people around here that hunting is on the decline and they just don't believe it.
Living in Wisconsin, a bunch of my co-workers hunt, but there's definitely the sense that less people hunt than when I was a kid. I'll probably never give it a try, and while I wouldn't stop my kids from exploring an interest in hunting, I'd be surprised if they ever did.
posted by drezdn at 7:39 AM on April 17, 2018
What, America's dual front war on not paying for the things you use and placing no value on a tax funded resource anyone can enjoy has victims?!
posted by DigDoug at 7:47 AM on April 17, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by DigDoug at 7:47 AM on April 17, 2018 [20 favorites]
I remember hearing about the duck stamps and the contest growing up, but we weren't hunters, so I think this is the first time I've gotten any connection to hunting. I think I just thought America liked ducks and wanted to put them on a postage stamp every year.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:50 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:50 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
People who hike and camp don't consume the resource
Yea, this is a really weird (and, the closest comparison I can get to it is if you're going into the meta and/or sovereign citizen definition of consume) way of putting this. There's no free-as-in-beer way that these wild spaces exist for folks, be they hunters or hikers, to enjoy them. National Parks, State Parks, National Forests, Preserves, blah blah blah, all require a semblance of maintenance and preservation or they'd literally become trash heaps, squatters refuges, or smuggler/poacher meccas. Be it hunting licenses, campground permit fees, entry fees, local taxes, federal grants, or non-profit support this is not a new concept, like at all.
Isofar as you were replying to someone suggesting that hikers and campers be taxed, in a roundabout way which may or may not be legit/fair, by saying "they don't consume the resource" that's a really, really weird and problematic way of looking at this issue.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:56 AM on April 17, 2018 [13 favorites]
Yea, this is a really weird (and, the closest comparison I can get to it is if you're going into the meta and/or sovereign citizen definition of consume) way of putting this. There's no free-as-in-beer way that these wild spaces exist for folks, be they hunters or hikers, to enjoy them. National Parks, State Parks, National Forests, Preserves, blah blah blah, all require a semblance of maintenance and preservation or they'd literally become trash heaps, squatters refuges, or smuggler/poacher meccas. Be it hunting licenses, campground permit fees, entry fees, local taxes, federal grants, or non-profit support this is not a new concept, like at all.
Isofar as you were replying to someone suggesting that hikers and campers be taxed, in a roundabout way which may or may not be legit/fair, by saying "they don't consume the resource" that's a really, really weird and problematic way of looking at this issue.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:56 AM on April 17, 2018 [13 favorites]
Another fun fact about the stamps - US Fish and Wildlife run a competition each year for the art that goes on the stamp. It's the only federally-sponsored art competition in the US! They have a collection of previous stamp art that goes on tour occasionally.
And it's terrific even if you don't get on the 29-cent. The little stamps are terrific! People use the little stamps! For Pete's sake. Of course they do. Whenever they raise the postage, people need the little stamps!
posted by Naberius at 8:03 AM on April 17, 2018 [12 favorites]
And it's terrific even if you don't get on the 29-cent. The little stamps are terrific! People use the little stamps! For Pete's sake. Of course they do. Whenever they raise the postage, people need the little stamps!
posted by Naberius at 8:03 AM on April 17, 2018 [12 favorites]
By the way, I'm a hiker (100mile club in Yellowstone, some AT sections, etc) and grew up hunting deer, squirrel, and rabbit. I see both sides and certainly feel like hikers and hunters should pay their fair share (and behave properly for that matter) because wild spaces are so amazing and valuable and worth preserving. I am also not at all surprised that hunting is on a downward trend. My theories as to that are
A) folks have left the country more and more and that trend continuing makes it simply less likely for folks to travel from city to country to hunt and/or foster a hunting tradition,
B) the NRA fucking things up royally as they shifted from a gun education and training organization to a political force of will and alienating people rather than inviting them in for hunting type activities, and
C) the fact that (as compared to the past decades) there's simply more for this generation to do that isn't hunting. Maybe I'm being wrongheaded here but, in the most concise form, someone who is (or grew up) playing Mario or Call of Duty or Gran Truismo or WOW or blogging their poetry or going to school online or whatever is just someone who isn't doing a pre-electronic age activity.
So... I think unless there's a nudge or a bump where younger generations (as I see it, the subsets of simple living, hipsters, tiny homes, locavores, and the like are what I have in mind here) take up the hobby then hunting will die out as a past time and, as such, it will slowly be legislated, though no ill will but just due to simple lack of interest, into non-existence and the wildlands will have that many fewer advocates and supporters and, well, users.
Will environmentalists hikers and campers fill the void left behind (both physically and monetarily) by the outgoing responsible (and there are many that are not responsible, don't get me wrong) hunting community? Buckle up, I think we're going to find out.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:08 AM on April 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
A) folks have left the country more and more and that trend continuing makes it simply less likely for folks to travel from city to country to hunt and/or foster a hunting tradition,
B) the NRA fucking things up royally as they shifted from a gun education and training organization to a political force of will and alienating people rather than inviting them in for hunting type activities, and
C) the fact that (as compared to the past decades) there's simply more for this generation to do that isn't hunting. Maybe I'm being wrongheaded here but, in the most concise form, someone who is (or grew up) playing Mario or Call of Duty or Gran Truismo or WOW or blogging their poetry or going to school online or whatever is just someone who isn't doing a pre-electronic age activity.
So... I think unless there's a nudge or a bump where younger generations (as I see it, the subsets of simple living, hipsters, tiny homes, locavores, and the like are what I have in mind here) take up the hobby then hunting will die out as a past time and, as such, it will slowly be legislated, though no ill will but just due to simple lack of interest, into non-existence and the wildlands will have that many fewer advocates and supporters and, well, users.
Will environmentalists hikers and campers fill the void left behind (both physically and monetarily) by the outgoing responsible (and there are many that are not responsible, don't get me wrong) hunting community? Buckle up, I think we're going to find out.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:08 AM on April 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
Oh and
D) commercialization/sanitization/sterilization of our food supply and expectations for the same. As insidious an evil as there ever was.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:09 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
D) commercialization/sanitization/sterilization of our food supply and expectations for the same. As insidious an evil as there ever was.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:09 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've never hunted. I think hunting deer is perfectly fine, and I don't have an axe to grind here. But...
I live in Chicago. Drive 20 minutes to an area like Lincolnwood, or through the Skokie Lagoons... and deer are everywhere. And seem to have almost zero fear of humans. I almost ran into one while riding my bike on the path to the Botanic Gardens.
So... how is hunting even difficult? I know you want to hit the heart, make the kill fast and as bloodless and quick as possible. But deer are freaking everywhere. How is killing a deer with a bow and arrow or a rifle not pretty easy to do?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:11 AM on April 17, 2018
I live in Chicago. Drive 20 minutes to an area like Lincolnwood, or through the Skokie Lagoons... and deer are everywhere. And seem to have almost zero fear of humans. I almost ran into one while riding my bike on the path to the Botanic Gardens.
So... how is hunting even difficult? I know you want to hit the heart, make the kill fast and as bloodless and quick as possible. But deer are freaking everywhere. How is killing a deer with a bow and arrow or a rifle not pretty easy to do?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:11 AM on April 17, 2018
How is killing a deer with a bow and arrow or a rifle not pretty easy to do?
It (generally) is pretty easy to do. That's why there are limits on the number you can kill, and why the hunting season (different for each type of game) is relatively short.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:14 AM on April 17, 2018 [4 favorites]
It (generally) is pretty easy to do. That's why there are limits on the number you can kill, and why the hunting season (different for each type of game) is relatively short.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:14 AM on April 17, 2018 [4 favorites]
Interesting. I seem to only hear about long hours huddled freezing in a blind, stalking the elusive prey... Maybe it's all just fish stories... with four legs?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:17 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:17 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
It (generally) is pretty easy to do
Total horse shit. Go learn to properly and accurately shoot, tune and maintain a modern bow. Go to a legal hunting area (not your local bike path), learn to scout the terrain for deer sign, choose a stand location, deal with the weather, stay quiet and still enough for a deer to come near you, manage your scent so they cant smell you, guesstimate the yardage, make a proper kill shot from an elevated position on a mature buck, then track, find, field dress and get the carcass back to your vehicle. Then come back and tell me it's easy.
posted by bwvol at 8:19 AM on April 17, 2018 [25 favorites]
Total horse shit. Go learn to properly and accurately shoot, tune and maintain a modern bow. Go to a legal hunting area (not your local bike path), learn to scout the terrain for deer sign, choose a stand location, deal with the weather, stay quiet and still enough for a deer to come near you, manage your scent so they cant smell you, guesstimate the yardage, make a proper kill shot from an elevated position on a mature buck, then track, find, field dress and get the carcass back to your vehicle. Then come back and tell me it's easy.
posted by bwvol at 8:19 AM on April 17, 2018 [25 favorites]
How is killing a deer with a bow and arrow or a rifle not pretty easy to do?
That's a strawman of your own building. No one said that. Also, for handicapped people it is actually hard/impossible to use a bow and arrow, so they may revert to firearms. As an aside, many states (mine for example) allowed crossbows to be utilized by handicapped hunters in situations where they'd otherwise be illegal which evened the playing field a bit.
and deer are everywhere. And seem to have almost zero fear of humans. I almost ran into one while riding my bike on the path to the Botanic Gardens.
So... how is hunting even difficult? ... but deer are freaking everywhere.
I'm not going to get into a debate on herd management and population problems, which is often much more complicated than just hunting/hunters, but you do know there are other types of game animals that aren't deer right?
I know you want to hit the heart, make the kill fast and as bloodless and quick as possible.
You're contradicting yourself here. Guns are certainly the better tool if your goal is to make the kill as certain, fast, and painless as possible. Not to mention that I want you to try squirrel hunting with a bow and arrow outside of a city park where squirrels are fearless. Ditto for any sort of stalking-type hunting where you may have to trek overland for hours or days to get a shot on an elk herd from 200+ yards away.
I mean, it sounds like you do have a bit of an axe to grind, if not against hunters then against guns at least.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:20 AM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
That's a strawman of your own building. No one said that. Also, for handicapped people it is actually hard/impossible to use a bow and arrow, so they may revert to firearms. As an aside, many states (mine for example) allowed crossbows to be utilized by handicapped hunters in situations where they'd otherwise be illegal which evened the playing field a bit.
and deer are everywhere. And seem to have almost zero fear of humans. I almost ran into one while riding my bike on the path to the Botanic Gardens.
So... how is hunting even difficult? ... but deer are freaking everywhere.
I'm not going to get into a debate on herd management and population problems, which is often much more complicated than just hunting/hunters, but you do know there are other types of game animals that aren't deer right?
I know you want to hit the heart, make the kill fast and as bloodless and quick as possible.
You're contradicting yourself here. Guns are certainly the better tool if your goal is to make the kill as certain, fast, and painless as possible. Not to mention that I want you to try squirrel hunting with a bow and arrow outside of a city park where squirrels are fearless. Ditto for any sort of stalking-type hunting where you may have to trek overland for hours or days to get a shot on an elk herd from 200+ yards away.
I mean, it sounds like you do have a bit of an axe to grind, if not against hunters then against guns at least.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:20 AM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
And yes, what bwvol said is certainly true. Just because you almost hit one with your bike doesn't mean anything. Most hunters I know wouldn't feel like they'd spent a good day hunting if they hit one with their car on the way to the deer stand. It's complicated, certainly, in this day of high gps and IR cameras and green-fields and scoped rifles and ATVs but your example isn't as overwhelmingly comprehensive or persuasive as you maybe think it is.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:22 AM on April 17, 2018
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:22 AM on April 17, 2018
I have. I agree the parts you listed (acquiring access to the land, learning to shoot, and field dressing) are way harder than actually walking around, finding a deer, and shooting (learning to bow hunt is much harder than a gun, but there are 'cheats' like scopes and triggers (that hold the bow string taught until you are ready to fire)).
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:23 AM on April 17, 2018
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:23 AM on April 17, 2018
Deer that live around suburban populations of humans are more likely to be conditioned to accept human presence due to the fact that human presence usually coincides with the presence of easy food sources. Also due the fact that most suburban/urban areas prohibit people from walking around and shooting rifles at deer they see in the street. Deer in rural areas have less contact with humans and are more wary, and that is generally where one would go to hunt, hence the interminable waiting in a tree stand.
posted by dudemanlives at 8:23 AM on April 17, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by dudemanlives at 8:23 AM on April 17, 2018 [14 favorites]
Interesting. I seem to only hear about long hours huddled freezing in a blind, stalking the elusive prey... Maybe it's all just fish stories... with four legs?
What? Honestly at this point I think you're just trolling as these comments are in such bad faith or come from such an, seemingly intentionally, uneducated place.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:24 AM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
What? Honestly at this point I think you're just trolling as these comments are in such bad faith or come from such an, seemingly intentionally, uneducated place.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:24 AM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
Wow, I guess I hit a nerve. I think hunting is a generally good thing. Deer starve and freeze to death and quickly overpopulate, destroy people's property, etc. I see them dead by the side of the road, roadkill all the time. I'd rather they were legally hunted.
And where the heck did the swipe about handicapped people come from? Of course things like hunting are more difficult for people with disabilities.
But... c'mon... you're apparently only hunting Super Deer who stay out of bike paths and ignore food thrown to them? Fighting off grizzlies while doing this too?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:26 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
And where the heck did the swipe about handicapped people come from? Of course things like hunting are more difficult for people with disabilities.
But... c'mon... you're apparently only hunting Super Deer who stay out of bike paths and ignore food thrown to them? Fighting off grizzlies while doing this too?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:26 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
And where the heck did the swipe about handicapped people come from?
No swipe at all, unless you take a counter-argument against your "why not just use bows and arrows" as a swipe. It's a fact of the law that I think is great for handicapped hunters to be able to still 'bow' hunt but use the necessary mechanical advantages that would make things overly simplistic for non-handicapped hunters.
And that kinda gets to the point you keep beating like a dead horse, you say
I think hunting is a generally good thing
while you continue to do this weird policing of hunting whereby you try to make anything that doesn't fit your definition of what is right and proper (a la freezing, in a blind, deer are too stupid, something something grizzlies) sound ridiculous and/or unworthy. That's what's really odd about your comments. It's like a no true Scotsman by proxy by someone who isn't even a Scotsman (I mean hunter). Really odd and I still think you're maybe just trolling, honestly, your comments come across as being made in that much bad faith.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:34 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
No swipe at all, unless you take a counter-argument against your "why not just use bows and arrows" as a swipe. It's a fact of the law that I think is great for handicapped hunters to be able to still 'bow' hunt but use the necessary mechanical advantages that would make things overly simplistic for non-handicapped hunters.
And that kinda gets to the point you keep beating like a dead horse, you say
I think hunting is a generally good thing
while you continue to do this weird policing of hunting whereby you try to make anything that doesn't fit your definition of what is right and proper (a la freezing, in a blind, deer are too stupid, something something grizzlies) sound ridiculous and/or unworthy. That's what's really odd about your comments. It's like a no true Scotsman by proxy by someone who isn't even a Scotsman (I mean hunter). Really odd and I still think you're maybe just trolling, honestly, your comments come across as being made in that much bad faith.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:34 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
What? Honestly at this point I think you're just trolling as these comments are in such bad faith or come from such an, seemingly intentionally, uneducated place.
Taking the comment this is replying to on faith, it very much depends on animal populations, desire to kill vs camaraderie, the seasonal temperature, time able to be allocated to the activity, and tons of other factors. Yes, it can be hours sitting in a cold deer blind, but that's not 100% of hunting. When I've gone deer hunting, it's in a place were poaching has been minimized, populations are pretty healthy, and shooting distances are medium (100-150 yds) and I just walk around until I find one. That's medium difficulty and as sport.
You can pre-feed and have a kill in an hour. That's what subsistence hunters do.
You can take the crew and spend an entire weekend hunting, grilling and maybe drinking. Maybe the tour is guided by a professional hunter who basically guarantees a trophy-esque spread of horns.
Wildlife and range management is a real science and it produces real results.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:35 AM on April 17, 2018 [4 favorites]
Taking the comment this is replying to on faith, it very much depends on animal populations, desire to kill vs camaraderie, the seasonal temperature, time able to be allocated to the activity, and tons of other factors. Yes, it can be hours sitting in a cold deer blind, but that's not 100% of hunting. When I've gone deer hunting, it's in a place were poaching has been minimized, populations are pretty healthy, and shooting distances are medium (100-150 yds) and I just walk around until I find one. That's medium difficulty and as sport.
You can pre-feed and have a kill in an hour. That's what subsistence hunters do.
You can take the crew and spend an entire weekend hunting, grilling and maybe drinking. Maybe the tour is guided by a professional hunter who basically guarantees a trophy-esque spread of horns.
Wildlife and range management is a real science and it produces real results.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:35 AM on April 17, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hey, I'm just relating what I've heard. My friend has old deer blinds in the woods behind her house in Michigan. But all you have to do is walk out the front road to see families of deer all the time, along the road, in the corn field stubble, etc. It's almost a misnomer to call deer wildlife... they thrive in huge numbers specifically because of human contact. They're kind of like pigeons or rats at this point.
OK, I get it, you can travel 400 miles to the Montana woodlands and stalk super-deer all you want. My point is they are very common, and not really wary of humans.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:39 AM on April 17, 2018
OK, I get it, you can travel 400 miles to the Montana woodlands and stalk super-deer all you want. My point is they are very common, and not really wary of humans.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:39 AM on April 17, 2018
You can pre-feed and have a kill in an hour. That's what subsistence hunters do.
Yup, for deer this is absolutely what my family did. A bit of time and care to create a green-field of rye grass in the woods. Some monitoring of the same until deer season opens up. Construction of as comfortable of a blind/shooting house as you prefer. Season opens and you're out there at dawn/dusk for a day or three and you could have all the deer meat you'd want.
Yet it still existed within the reasonable regulations of hunting as it stands for that locale.
You can take that in graduations all the way down to people who still, quite literally, spear hunt (up to and including dangerous game) . But coming right in with "Well, I don't hunt but the way it's done is stupid because I see deer in my back yard" is problematic at best.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:43 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yup, for deer this is absolutely what my family did. A bit of time and care to create a green-field of rye grass in the woods. Some monitoring of the same until deer season opens up. Construction of as comfortable of a blind/shooting house as you prefer. Season opens and you're out there at dawn/dusk for a day or three and you could have all the deer meat you'd want.
Yet it still existed within the reasonable regulations of hunting as it stands for that locale.
You can take that in graduations all the way down to people who still, quite literally, spear hunt (up to and including dangerous game) . But coming right in with "Well, I don't hunt but the way it's done is stupid because I see deer in my back yard" is problematic at best.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:43 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I never said hunting is stupid. I never said that bows should be used versus rifles. If anyone has an axe to grind here, well, it's not me.
I know a guy who killed a black bear with a bow. I know other hunters, too.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:47 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I know a guy who killed a black bear with a bow. I know other hunters, too.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:47 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
" Drive 20 minutes to an area like Lincolnwood, or through the Skokie Lagoons... and deer are everywhere. And seem to have almost zero fear of humans."
In Cook County, deer mostly live in narrow, linear parks that are interconnected, but are not wide. They range into suburban backyards for forage, they have very little fear of people, they are WAY too densely-packed for the available land, and virtually all deer culling is done by the wildly underfunded DNR, because the forest preserves are way, way, way, way too freaking narrow and back up to too many playgrounds and schools to allow hunters to be shooting and risk missing or making a bad decision about which direction to fire. (I think, but I'm not 100% positive, that you can only get a hunting permit for game birds in Cook County, and there are a very small handful of places you're allowed to hunt, and you must use designated blinds.)
Downstate, where there are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS more deer, you see them much less often, because they have SO MUCH MORE LAND on which they can avoid humans. We went hiking in wildlife preserve basically weekly, and while we saw wild turkeys all the darn time, we hardly ever saw deer, and they fled like whoa if they saw us. It was a big treat when we saw them! In an average year, I saw more deer in my parents' Cook County backyard (couple miles from the forest preserve) during the 3ish weeks I visited them than I saw all year in Peoria County hunting land and wildlife preserves and so on.
I don't know a lot about deer hunting because I'm not particularly interested in it, but downstate hunters do hang out in a blind and wait for deer to visit a salt lick. Wandering around large tracts of forest hoping you find one takes a good long while.
" the NRA fucking things up royally as they shifted from a gun education and training organization to a political force of will and alienating people rather than inviting them in for hunting type activities"
Yeah, Illinois has a program (or had, maybe Rauner has cut it) for doing wildlands outreach to women in general, single mothers in particular, and minorities, because state park use trends heavily white and male. They teach classes on hiking, camping, wilderness safety, outdoor cooking, etc. etc. -- and hunting, because for the most part you learn from your (white, male) parent, or you don't learn. But their uptake on hunting classes is super, super low by women and minorities, because the NRA makes it an aggressively unpleasant and unwelcoming activity for everyone but white men. And whenever the state tries to do inclusive hunting outreach, the NRA jumps all over their ad campaign to piggyback on it and promote the NRA, which neuters the effectiveness of the state's campaign.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:47 AM on April 17, 2018 [15 favorites]
In Cook County, deer mostly live in narrow, linear parks that are interconnected, but are not wide. They range into suburban backyards for forage, they have very little fear of people, they are WAY too densely-packed for the available land, and virtually all deer culling is done by the wildly underfunded DNR, because the forest preserves are way, way, way, way too freaking narrow and back up to too many playgrounds and schools to allow hunters to be shooting and risk missing or making a bad decision about which direction to fire. (I think, but I'm not 100% positive, that you can only get a hunting permit for game birds in Cook County, and there are a very small handful of places you're allowed to hunt, and you must use designated blinds.)
Downstate, where there are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS more deer, you see them much less often, because they have SO MUCH MORE LAND on which they can avoid humans. We went hiking in wildlife preserve basically weekly, and while we saw wild turkeys all the darn time, we hardly ever saw deer, and they fled like whoa if they saw us. It was a big treat when we saw them! In an average year, I saw more deer in my parents' Cook County backyard (couple miles from the forest preserve) during the 3ish weeks I visited them than I saw all year in Peoria County hunting land and wildlife preserves and so on.
I don't know a lot about deer hunting because I'm not particularly interested in it, but downstate hunters do hang out in a blind and wait for deer to visit a salt lick. Wandering around large tracts of forest hoping you find one takes a good long while.
" the NRA fucking things up royally as they shifted from a gun education and training organization to a political force of will and alienating people rather than inviting them in for hunting type activities"
Yeah, Illinois has a program (or had, maybe Rauner has cut it) for doing wildlands outreach to women in general, single mothers in particular, and minorities, because state park use trends heavily white and male. They teach classes on hiking, camping, wilderness safety, outdoor cooking, etc. etc. -- and hunting, because for the most part you learn from your (white, male) parent, or you don't learn. But their uptake on hunting classes is super, super low by women and minorities, because the NRA makes it an aggressively unpleasant and unwelcoming activity for everyone but white men. And whenever the state tries to do inclusive hunting outreach, the NRA jumps all over their ad campaign to piggyback on it and promote the NRA, which neuters the effectiveness of the state's campaign.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:47 AM on April 17, 2018 [15 favorites]
Mod note: jeff-o-matic, let's leave it there re: your thoughts on hunting.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:52 AM on April 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:52 AM on April 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
Let's find out through opposite bidding whether more ultea rich people would rather hunt zoo populations or preserve them. Think: if you don't want me to club this baby seal, you'd better pay more than the guy who wants me to club this baby seal!
And yes, do this with zoos. Eric and Don Jr. Trump likes to hunt wild game in safari... wouldnt they like to be able to do that even more across the wilds of central park? I mean - all that has to happen is someone has to pay one dollar more to *not* let them do it!
This way, you also find out what animals are really worth it.
BTW... I also think PETA should be allowed to buy all the cows in the US in this manner too. If for no other reason than to fuck with McDonald's.
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:53 AM on April 17, 2018
And yes, do this with zoos. Eric and Don Jr. Trump likes to hunt wild game in safari... wouldnt they like to be able to do that even more across the wilds of central park? I mean - all that has to happen is someone has to pay one dollar more to *not* let them do it!
This way, you also find out what animals are really worth it.
BTW... I also think PETA should be allowed to buy all the cows in the US in this manner too. If for no other reason than to fuck with McDonald's.
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:53 AM on April 17, 2018
Yeah, fuck the NRA. I bet a lot of people who would otherwise hunt have been turned off because the only firearms training resources in their area are monopolised by that fucking blood cult.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:05 AM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 9:05 AM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, my tiny hometown DNR is sponsoring a "how to build your own Assault Rife" class. Not sure if the outrage on my facebook page is going to turn into a protest. Seems like they should be promoting good hunting practices instead, but sometimes I forget how stupidly conservative my hometown is.
We have a small herd of deer that hang out in our tiny block of wilderness in a urban/suburban area, and sometimes I fantasize about how easy it would be to take one with a bow and arrow, but I am under no illusions that it is a normal hunting occurrence.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 9:05 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
We have a small herd of deer that hang out in our tiny block of wilderness in a urban/suburban area, and sometimes I fantasize about how easy it would be to take one with a bow and arrow, but I am under no illusions that it is a normal hunting occurrence.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 9:05 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Really interesting article. I don't hunt but being in Minnesota I have a lot of friends who do. I'm curious, do Europeans and others come to the US to hunt? It's really expensive to shoot a stag in most of Europe, seems like coming to the US to hunt would be popular. Another thought, is there a birding "license"? Seems like there should be. I've done some birding and as a group they are very conservation minded and I can see a federal or state license being widely purchased. For example, in Minnesota we have a cross country ski pass that you technically need to ski on state trails. It's never patrolled but people buy them, I know I do. This is in addition to any park or trail fees you might incur.
As an extremely active outdoors person I would also welcome a tax on outdoor clothing that is specifically used for conservation, the so-called REI Tax.
posted by misterpatrick at 9:06 AM on April 17, 2018
As an extremely active outdoors person I would also welcome a tax on outdoor clothing that is specifically used for conservation, the so-called REI Tax.
posted by misterpatrick at 9:06 AM on April 17, 2018
I've heard of Frenchmen and Italians coming to California to hunt feral pigs.
(Bienvenues, messieurs! Enjoyez!)
posted by ocschwar at 9:19 AM on April 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
(Bienvenues, messieurs! Enjoyez!)
posted by ocschwar at 9:19 AM on April 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
I've been reflecting on topics like this a lot lately, since (as a person in his early 30s who, until recently, had never even seen a gun that wasn't strapped to a cop's leg) I decided to learn to hunt. I'm hoping to actually go in the field for the first time this coming fall, but all of my learning experiences so far have been not only helpful from a technical perspective but also very insightful and thought-provoking.
I live in a state (like most of the US from what I understand) that requires taking a hunter education course before being eligible for a hunting license. The course I took is free and run by the state department of fish and game (paid for with things like conservation money). They provided a ton of books and other printed material (all free), and you get a cool patch when you complete the course!
The course teaches you a lot of the basic mechanics (how not to accidentally shoot yourself or others, how to avoid freezing to death, stuff like that), but an approximately equal amount of time was devoted to ethics. Not just laws about hunting, but actually performing this activity in an ethical manner. The students in the class seemed genuinely interested in discussing these issues - I was honestly surprised at how much people got into it. It left me with a really good feeling about the value of the course and the conviction that most people want to treat hunting as a serious responsibility, something not to be taken lightly.
And so far, other interactions I've had since then have borne out that opinion. The state offers a number of hunting and hunting-adjacent courses (all free, and all come with patches), and I've had the opportunity to chat with hunter classmates and the instructors. Everyone that I've talked to has been thoughtful and introspective about hunting as an activity and want to ensure that our wild lands are conserved for activities like this.
At a waterfowling class a couple weeks ago, I was chatting with one of the instructors - a US Fish and Wildlife biologist who works on hunting programs. He was very forthright about the image problem that currently exists (the stereotype of the hunter as a drunk white male redneck yahoo) and his efforts to increase diversity. Trying to attract new hunters, especially new hunters who are women and minorities, is a big area of interest for USF&W right now and I get the impression that they're taking the challenge seriously.
It's been a really interesting learning experience for me and caused me to think about my own feelings about gun ownership and hunting. And all I really had to do was be willing to sit in a room, for free, and have some interesting discussions with knowledgeable people. It really shows just how much work goes in to protecting these open spaces - you might not see park rangers crawling all over the place, but there's a lot going on behind the scenes to keep animal populations healthy and land accessible.
posted by backseatpilot at 9:38 AM on April 17, 2018 [15 favorites]
I live in a state (like most of the US from what I understand) that requires taking a hunter education course before being eligible for a hunting license. The course I took is free and run by the state department of fish and game (paid for with things like conservation money). They provided a ton of books and other printed material (all free), and you get a cool patch when you complete the course!
The course teaches you a lot of the basic mechanics (how not to accidentally shoot yourself or others, how to avoid freezing to death, stuff like that), but an approximately equal amount of time was devoted to ethics. Not just laws about hunting, but actually performing this activity in an ethical manner. The students in the class seemed genuinely interested in discussing these issues - I was honestly surprised at how much people got into it. It left me with a really good feeling about the value of the course and the conviction that most people want to treat hunting as a serious responsibility, something not to be taken lightly.
And so far, other interactions I've had since then have borne out that opinion. The state offers a number of hunting and hunting-adjacent courses (all free, and all come with patches), and I've had the opportunity to chat with hunter classmates and the instructors. Everyone that I've talked to has been thoughtful and introspective about hunting as an activity and want to ensure that our wild lands are conserved for activities like this.
At a waterfowling class a couple weeks ago, I was chatting with one of the instructors - a US Fish and Wildlife biologist who works on hunting programs. He was very forthright about the image problem that currently exists (the stereotype of the hunter as a drunk white male redneck yahoo) and his efforts to increase diversity. Trying to attract new hunters, especially new hunters who are women and minorities, is a big area of interest for USF&W right now and I get the impression that they're taking the challenge seriously.
It's been a really interesting learning experience for me and caused me to think about my own feelings about gun ownership and hunting. And all I really had to do was be willing to sit in a room, for free, and have some interesting discussions with knowledgeable people. It really shows just how much work goes in to protecting these open spaces - you might not see park rangers crawling all over the place, but there's a lot going on behind the scenes to keep animal populations healthy and land accessible.
posted by backseatpilot at 9:38 AM on April 17, 2018 [15 favorites]
I've noticed when driving through the armpit of Florida (Big Bend) that there are plenty of derelict fish camps and hunting lodges, and private prisons and dollar stores seem to be the only thriving industries. Meanwhile places in Utah and Virginia near hiking and kayaking are booming. We're getting outside, we're just doing different things. My dad grew up in an era where you'd be considered lazy if you didn't harvest some kind of animal during your outdoor trek.
you could always buy a duck stamp
This reminds me that Dave Barry used to have a band called Federal Duck.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:55 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
you could always buy a duck stamp
This reminds me that Dave Barry used to have a band called Federal Duck.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:55 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
This reminds me of how taxes on gasoline pay for maintaining our roads, but cars use less gas so there is less money for maintenance.
posted by Triplanetary at 9:57 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Triplanetary at 9:57 AM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
I bet a lot of people who would otherwise hunt have been turned off because the only firearms training resources in their area are monopolised by that fucking blood cult.
Yep. If I'm going to eat meat I'd prefer to hunt, but learning to hunt in my area would involve rubbing elbows with some people who I don't want to rub elbows with.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:20 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yep. If I'm going to eat meat I'd prefer to hunt, but learning to hunt in my area would involve rubbing elbows with some people who I don't want to rub elbows with.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:20 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
The CWD thing is scary. Walker's failure to take it seriously hasn't helped, as southern Wisconsin is an epicenter, but honestly, the situation was already screwed. CWD is popping up as far away as Mississippi. The more it spreads, the less attractive deer hunting becomes.
Even here in CA, I've heard paranoia about CWD, even though there has never been a case on this side of the continental divide. Nothing puts a damper on a sport like the possibility of getting incurable brain-eating prions.
because the only firearms training resources in their area are monopolised by that fucking blood cult.
Yeah, the NRA tendrils in anything gun-related is pretty uncomfortable. I managed to get certified without giving the NRA any money, at least not directly. The vast majority of their funding comes from individual donations and membership dues, so I do not feel too guilty about whatever tiny fraction of the money I spend on ammo going to a corporate NRA donation.
Having said that, if a single ammo manufacturer made .308 cartridges certified to be NRA-free, I'd be the most loyal customer. And I suspect I'm not alone.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:27 AM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
Even here in CA, I've heard paranoia about CWD, even though there has never been a case on this side of the continental divide. Nothing puts a damper on a sport like the possibility of getting incurable brain-eating prions.
because the only firearms training resources in their area are monopolised by that fucking blood cult.
Yeah, the NRA tendrils in anything gun-related is pretty uncomfortable. I managed to get certified without giving the NRA any money, at least not directly. The vast majority of their funding comes from individual donations and membership dues, so I do not feel too guilty about whatever tiny fraction of the money I spend on ammo going to a corporate NRA donation.
Having said that, if a single ammo manufacturer made .308 cartridges certified to be NRA-free, I'd be the most loyal customer. And I suspect I'm not alone.
posted by andrewpcone at 10:27 AM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
At a waterfowling class ... (the stereotype of the hunter as a drunk white male redneck yahoo)
Counter: around here, the people who duck hunt are corporate lawyers and/or other ultra-wealthy. Folks who will fork out $45-60k for just the duck rights on any leased land w/ water access and a tagged blind (ignoring all the other duck-hunting extras like: a dog, decoys, boat, another shotgun, etc)
Man, I can buy a frozen duck at Costco for $20..
posted by k5.user at 11:16 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Counter: around here, the people who duck hunt are corporate lawyers and/or other ultra-wealthy. Folks who will fork out $45-60k for just the duck rights on any leased land w/ water access and a tagged blind (ignoring all the other duck-hunting extras like: a dog, decoys, boat, another shotgun, etc)
Man, I can buy a frozen duck at Costco for $20..
posted by k5.user at 11:16 AM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Not to mention pigs. Yummy.
Deer populations out west were never in any danger from tag holders. Most tags never get filled. But some forty years ago trail crews in Sierra and Sequoia NPs were well funded, and the primary north-south routes were as busy with hikers as the freeways. Local rangers patrolled the area to help the relatively new hikers pick proper camps and were more helpful in educating the newbies in camping techniques than they were interested in issuing tickets for violations.
Nowadays ranches exist that raise game animals for shooters to kill, if they aren't able or don't want to deal with all the fuss and bother of learning orienteering and other such skills as most people learn when they travel to the back-country. I like the idea of creating and maintaining campgrounds and level trails in the mountain to which the wheel-chair bound campers have access. I'm not particularly in favor of trying to figure out how to fix it so that these folks can have the pleasure of killing something. Let the private ranches wrangle with this demographic.
In Utopia everybody treasures the wild places and vote to set aside generous tax monies to pay people to maintain them. The knot in this theory is that a user fee obviously can't cover the cost, nor should the fee be so high that we who inhabit the rising end of the fiscal curve aren't able to afford it.
Not relevant is the effort to distinguish among gun owners who just love their machine guns from hunters who understand and appreciate their weapon of choice and the creatures they wish to kill. Machine gun lovers don't need to be forced to pay more than their fair share of the costs to maintain this aspect of our national infrastructure. Even the control and cost of hunting certain game animals by season and bag limit should be done with an eye on conservation, not by trying to fund the whole notion of preserving our wilderness areas.
On the other hand, privatizing our wilderness areas seems to be, if not on the horizon, then in the offing. When my son's grandchildren ask their mommy what the hell their g-g-granddaddy is doing with the horse with those funny looking ears, mommy will just shrug, don't know, don't care.
posted by mule98J at 12:07 PM on April 17, 2018
Deer populations out west were never in any danger from tag holders. Most tags never get filled. But some forty years ago trail crews in Sierra and Sequoia NPs were well funded, and the primary north-south routes were as busy with hikers as the freeways. Local rangers patrolled the area to help the relatively new hikers pick proper camps and were more helpful in educating the newbies in camping techniques than they were interested in issuing tickets for violations.
Nowadays ranches exist that raise game animals for shooters to kill, if they aren't able or don't want to deal with all the fuss and bother of learning orienteering and other such skills as most people learn when they travel to the back-country. I like the idea of creating and maintaining campgrounds and level trails in the mountain to which the wheel-chair bound campers have access. I'm not particularly in favor of trying to figure out how to fix it so that these folks can have the pleasure of killing something. Let the private ranches wrangle with this demographic.
In Utopia everybody treasures the wild places and vote to set aside generous tax monies to pay people to maintain them. The knot in this theory is that a user fee obviously can't cover the cost, nor should the fee be so high that we who inhabit the rising end of the fiscal curve aren't able to afford it.
Not relevant is the effort to distinguish among gun owners who just love their machine guns from hunters who understand and appreciate their weapon of choice and the creatures they wish to kill. Machine gun lovers don't need to be forced to pay more than their fair share of the costs to maintain this aspect of our national infrastructure. Even the control and cost of hunting certain game animals by season and bag limit should be done with an eye on conservation, not by trying to fund the whole notion of preserving our wilderness areas.
On the other hand, privatizing our wilderness areas seems to be, if not on the horizon, then in the offing. When my son's grandchildren ask their mommy what the hell their g-g-granddaddy is doing with the horse with those funny looking ears, mommy will just shrug, don't know, don't care.
posted by mule98J at 12:07 PM on April 17, 2018
Nowadays ranches exist that raise game animals for shooters to kill
We have a game rancher up here who killed over 130 raptors and who knows what other creatures to protect his pheasant hunting business, so I'm not sure that game ranches are the best solution. Especially not this close to a wildlife sanctuary that draws in birds of prey that are in direct opposition to game bird ranches.
Of course, we're talking about deer. We have plenty of those and I would love to go hunting because I love venison and they're pesty things besides. I own a Honda Civic and I need to sell it because I won't drive it anymore. If I hit a deer in my truck things might be unpleasant. If I hit a deer in the Civic I'd probably end up dead.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:31 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
We have a game rancher up here who killed over 130 raptors and who knows what other creatures to protect his pheasant hunting business, so I'm not sure that game ranches are the best solution. Especially not this close to a wildlife sanctuary that draws in birds of prey that are in direct opposition to game bird ranches.
Of course, we're talking about deer. We have plenty of those and I would love to go hunting because I love venison and they're pesty things besides. I own a Honda Civic and I need to sell it because I won't drive it anymore. If I hit a deer in my truck things might be unpleasant. If I hit a deer in the Civic I'd probably end up dead.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:31 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I worry about declining hunting largely because there are essentially zero predators left in many parts of the US. Game like deer end up way overpopulated, and the little hunting that does happen isn't enough to keep them in check... so we have DNR agents culling deer, which gets people upset on both sides of the debate.
I've gone deer hunting with my dad as a kid (before I could shoot) and gone after rabbits with my father-in-law (once old enough to actually carry a gun myself). I like fishing, but maybe go once a year at most. Hunting itself is fine with me - although I do draw the line at "eat what you shoot" (and thus don't personally approve of hunting-related things like fur trapping, because those are not done for food... unless you actually eat muskrat, in which case go for it I guess). But I am part of the problem, because I really don't participate in the sport and can't see myself encouraging my son to hunt either. I wouldn't discourage it, but if he is even aware that there's a gun in the house it would surprise me - I have a shotgun that hasn't been out of its case in years, because my father-in-law doesn't hunt rabbits any more. If I did any shooting at all these days it would probably be trap shooting, because shooting clay pigeons is fun as heck.
The other reason I worry is land usage. If public land becomes less valuable to people as a place to hunt and fish - or if the revenues decline to the point where land is too expensive, or park fees are exorbitant, we all lose. Those with lower incomes will be priced out of the parks, and many areas that are currently protected would be opened for development because they are less useful as game areas. We really can't and shouldn't underestimate the impact of groups like Ducks Unlimited, organizations basically founded by hunters to protect and conserve wetlands and other game areas, with the recognition that lack of conservation would mean the end of the sport they love. Even people who don't hunt have benefited from the conservation efforts funded by those who do.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:52 PM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've gone deer hunting with my dad as a kid (before I could shoot) and gone after rabbits with my father-in-law (once old enough to actually carry a gun myself). I like fishing, but maybe go once a year at most. Hunting itself is fine with me - although I do draw the line at "eat what you shoot" (and thus don't personally approve of hunting-related things like fur trapping, because those are not done for food... unless you actually eat muskrat, in which case go for it I guess). But I am part of the problem, because I really don't participate in the sport and can't see myself encouraging my son to hunt either. I wouldn't discourage it, but if he is even aware that there's a gun in the house it would surprise me - I have a shotgun that hasn't been out of its case in years, because my father-in-law doesn't hunt rabbits any more. If I did any shooting at all these days it would probably be trap shooting, because shooting clay pigeons is fun as heck.
The other reason I worry is land usage. If public land becomes less valuable to people as a place to hunt and fish - or if the revenues decline to the point where land is too expensive, or park fees are exorbitant, we all lose. Those with lower incomes will be priced out of the parks, and many areas that are currently protected would be opened for development because they are less useful as game areas. We really can't and shouldn't underestimate the impact of groups like Ducks Unlimited, organizations basically founded by hunters to protect and conserve wetlands and other game areas, with the recognition that lack of conservation would mean the end of the sport they love. Even people who don't hunt have benefited from the conservation efforts funded by those who do.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:52 PM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
RolandOfEld: Will environmentalists hikers and campers fill the void left behind (both physically and monetarily) by the outgoing responsible (and there are many that are not responsible, don't get me wrong) hunting community?
For what it's worth, hiking and camping are going through another huge boom right now, driven at least in part by social media (Instagram) valorizing and romanticizing the wild spaces in our land. (Not that they aren't genuinely pretty fucking romantic, I mean come on it's gorgeous out there.) Hikers are generally pretty responsible users of the backcountry. Our activities are pretty low impact. I pay my usage fees and don't grumble when they go up because it's obvious that somebody needs to maintain the facilities. I volunteer for trail maintenance work on occasion as well.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:23 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, hiking and camping are going through another huge boom right now, driven at least in part by social media (Instagram) valorizing and romanticizing the wild spaces in our land. (Not that they aren't genuinely pretty fucking romantic, I mean come on it's gorgeous out there.) Hikers are generally pretty responsible users of the backcountry. Our activities are pretty low impact. I pay my usage fees and don't grumble when they go up because it's obvious that somebody needs to maintain the facilities. I volunteer for trail maintenance work on occasion as well.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:23 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh, I agree (and am a hiker too, as I said) that there's more, and more educated, hikers out and about consuming what the outdoors can throw at them. I just honestly can't help but ask if it's going to be enough to fill the void hunters, of which there were once many more (as the article states), are leaving behind. I honestly don't know.
Hunters lease land, make improvements like trails and roads and cabins, invest in equipment, pay for licenses and tags or lotteries, buy license plates, join clubs, and contribute to conservation causes/groups.
Hikers,of course, do many of those things as well and are different when it comes to how their impact/use is managed or paid for. But... I just don't know, it seems, from my point of view at least, that an entire viewpoint (and socieo-economic status population) becomes detached from land conservation as a priority if hunters leave and hikers/campers fill the gap.
I don't know, I'm talking soley from the heart (read: from my ass) and not based on facts or statistics (not least of all because what is true in New Mexico or Colorado will not be true in Alabama or Maine for example) but I'm a bit worried that these amazing opportunities for learning to love and live from the land are going away to be replaced with either apathy, at worst, or a different thing altogether at best.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:28 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hunters lease land, make improvements like trails and roads and cabins, invest in equipment, pay for licenses and tags or lotteries, buy license plates, join clubs, and contribute to conservation causes/groups.
Hikers,of course, do many of those things as well and are different when it comes to how their impact/use is managed or paid for. But... I just don't know, it seems, from my point of view at least, that an entire viewpoint (and socieo-economic status population) becomes detached from land conservation as a priority if hunters leave and hikers/campers fill the gap.
I don't know, I'm talking soley from the heart (read: from my ass) and not based on facts or statistics (not least of all because what is true in New Mexico or Colorado will not be true in Alabama or Maine for example) but I'm a bit worried that these amazing opportunities for learning to love and live from the land are going away to be replaced with either apathy, at worst, or a different thing altogether at best.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:28 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's what subsistence hunters do.
Is there actually subsistence hunting in the US outside of Alaska? A quick google would suggest otherwise, but obviously it's possible there are people subsistence hunting in places where hunting rules are made on the assumption people could go to the grocery store.
posted by hoyland at 5:39 PM on April 17, 2018
Is there actually subsistence hunting in the US outside of Alaska? A quick google would suggest otherwise, but obviously it's possible there are people subsistence hunting in places where hunting rules are made on the assumption people could go to the grocery store.
posted by hoyland at 5:39 PM on April 17, 2018
My friend has old deer blinds in the woods behind her house in Michigan. But all you have to do is walk out the front road to see families of deer all the time, along the road, in the corn field stubble, etc.
deer aren't totally stupid - like many other wild animals, they can sense when and where a person might be armed and going after them
i was looking for my dog in the woods by my old house and ended up 50 feet from a 12 point buck, who just stood there like "what are you doing in MY woods, buddy?"
"ah, nothing sir, lemme just back up behind this tree ..."
i turned around and he was gone - this was next door to the battle creek huntsman club, so he was pretty used to people with guns - and pretty sure i didn't have one
at least i found the dog
but wild animals know more than you think
posted by pyramid termite at 5:39 PM on April 17, 2018
deer aren't totally stupid - like many other wild animals, they can sense when and where a person might be armed and going after them
i was looking for my dog in the woods by my old house and ended up 50 feet from a 12 point buck, who just stood there like "what are you doing in MY woods, buddy?"
"ah, nothing sir, lemme just back up behind this tree ..."
i turned around and he was gone - this was next door to the battle creek huntsman club, so he was pretty used to people with guns - and pretty sure i didn't have one
at least i found the dog
but wild animals know more than you think
posted by pyramid termite at 5:39 PM on April 17, 2018
Is there actually subsistence hunting in the US outside of Alaska?
Fair question I suppose.
To my mind if a family that is below the poverty line (or even if they aren't, who cares) has someone go out and, no frills attached or trophy hunting intended (but still within the laws of the land, of course), kills a deer, hauls it out of the woods, cleans it, and either processes it themselves or pays a fee to someone to do it that ends up being extremely cheap for local, organic protein for their freezer and, subsequently, feeds said meat to their family.... I call that subsistence hunting even if it's not a Native tribe in northern Alaska out getting walrus or something that much more traditional, to some eyes anyway, not mine.
Welcome to a large subset of the hunters I grew up wtih in Alabama, including my family, as I said above.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:46 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Fair question I suppose.
To my mind if a family that is below the poverty line (or even if they aren't, who cares) has someone go out and, no frills attached or trophy hunting intended (but still within the laws of the land, of course), kills a deer, hauls it out of the woods, cleans it, and either processes it themselves or pays a fee to someone to do it that ends up being extremely cheap for local, organic protein for their freezer and, subsequently, feeds said meat to their family.... I call that subsistence hunting even if it's not a Native tribe in northern Alaska out getting walrus or something that much more traditional, to some eyes anyway, not mine.
Welcome to a large subset of the hunters I grew up wtih in Alabama, including my family, as I said above.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:46 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
an entire viewpoint (and socieo-economic status population) becomes detached from land conservation as a priority if hunters leave
Yeah, that's a really good point. Hikers do make improvements, invest in equipment, join clubs, and contribute to conservation causes. But it's a very different ethos. A different viewpoint, as you said. The hunter's perspective is valid and its lineage is as old as life itself. Recreational hiking is a fundamentally human activity and a recent one at that. The hiker is fundamentally an observer of nature, while the hunter is a participant.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:48 PM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that's a really good point. Hikers do make improvements, invest in equipment, join clubs, and contribute to conservation causes. But it's a very different ethos. A different viewpoint, as you said. The hunter's perspective is valid and its lineage is as old as life itself. Recreational hiking is a fundamentally human activity and a recent one at that. The hiker is fundamentally an observer of nature, while the hunter is a participant.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:48 PM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Thanks.
The hiker is fundamentally an observer of nature, while the hunter is a participant
Is a good way of putting it. That got me to thinking, at least personally, I wouldn't consider hiking the exact same trail hundreds of times. That's almost the antithesis of why I hike where/when I hike.
Yet, personally, I can guarantee you that my grandfather and father and thousands like them have hunted, joyously, the exact same plot of land hundreds of times without a complaint. Sure a trip now and again across the state to hunt a friend's property or club would be welcome, ditto for the once in a lifetime trip for my Grandfather to go to Canada and see beagles run snowshoe hare instead of the cottontail or swamp rabbits we have here...
But folks would fight tooth and nail to preserve and protect their hunting grounds and that's... important I think.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:57 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
The hiker is fundamentally an observer of nature, while the hunter is a participant
Is a good way of putting it. That got me to thinking, at least personally, I wouldn't consider hiking the exact same trail hundreds of times. That's almost the antithesis of why I hike where/when I hike.
Yet, personally, I can guarantee you that my grandfather and father and thousands like them have hunted, joyously, the exact same plot of land hundreds of times without a complaint. Sure a trip now and again across the state to hunt a friend's property or club would be welcome, ditto for the once in a lifetime trip for my Grandfather to go to Canada and see beagles run snowshoe hare instead of the cottontail or swamp rabbits we have here...
But folks would fight tooth and nail to preserve and protect their hunting grounds and that's... important I think.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:57 PM on April 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I absolutely love hiking the same trail over and over again.
Just today during work I went out to hike (well, walk) a local trail that I've been down countless times in every season and weather. I was looking for signs of spring, particularly fiddleheads (which I saw two days earlier on that trail last year, for the first time that spring) and canada mayflower, which is running late (as most things are this spring). No fiddleheads, but I did spot that canada mayflower that I was looking for; just a few shoots, but it's more than was there a few days ago.
I've been down that trail in spring, summer, fall, and winter. I've been down it in blizzards, I've been down it in floods. I've snowshoed it, I've kayaked the river to meet the trail at its base. I've been down it alone, and with friends, and with dog friends. I've startled a fawn on that trail, taught a friend's kids the names of the trees that grow in that forest, seen many sunsets, smoked many bowls, drank many beers. All on one trail that's barely over a mile long.
It's probably my third-most-hiked trail.
I've got mountains up in New Hampshire that are like that, too. I have winter mountains and summer mountains, and mountains I'll hike any time of year for any reason at all. There's one mountain up there that I've probably climbed more than ten times so far, and I hope to sleep up there this summer and use it as a launch point for a bushwhack through a trail-less area to another lookout that I've been to before by other paths. I have countless photos from that mountain and lots of ideas for photos I'd like to take at other times of year or in other lights.
There's value in hiking the same place more than once, in trying to observe a place deeply, to know it as completely as you can by seeing it in all its moods, all its scales, experiencing it in different contexts over and over again. It's like re-reading a favorite book: you know how it goes, but you know you're going to see something new, something you'd never noticed.
I hike to find new vistas and new challenges, but I also hike to visit familiar, beloved places and to know them more fully.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:18 PM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Just today during work I went out to hike (well, walk) a local trail that I've been down countless times in every season and weather. I was looking for signs of spring, particularly fiddleheads (which I saw two days earlier on that trail last year, for the first time that spring) and canada mayflower, which is running late (as most things are this spring). No fiddleheads, but I did spot that canada mayflower that I was looking for; just a few shoots, but it's more than was there a few days ago.
I've been down that trail in spring, summer, fall, and winter. I've been down it in blizzards, I've been down it in floods. I've snowshoed it, I've kayaked the river to meet the trail at its base. I've been down it alone, and with friends, and with dog friends. I've startled a fawn on that trail, taught a friend's kids the names of the trees that grow in that forest, seen many sunsets, smoked many bowls, drank many beers. All on one trail that's barely over a mile long.
It's probably my third-most-hiked trail.
I've got mountains up in New Hampshire that are like that, too. I have winter mountains and summer mountains, and mountains I'll hike any time of year for any reason at all. There's one mountain up there that I've probably climbed more than ten times so far, and I hope to sleep up there this summer and use it as a launch point for a bushwhack through a trail-less area to another lookout that I've been to before by other paths. I have countless photos from that mountain and lots of ideas for photos I'd like to take at other times of year or in other lights.
There's value in hiking the same place more than once, in trying to observe a place deeply, to know it as completely as you can by seeing it in all its moods, all its scales, experiencing it in different contexts over and over again. It's like re-reading a favorite book: you know how it goes, but you know you're going to see something new, something you'd never noticed.
I hike to find new vistas and new challenges, but I also hike to visit familiar, beloved places and to know them more fully.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:18 PM on April 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Is there actually subsistence hunting in the US outside of Alaska? A quick google would suggest otherwise, but obviously it's possible there are people subsistence hunting in places where hunting rules are made on the assumption people could go to the grocery store.
I know people who would have significantly poorer diets if it weren't for hunting (and in one case, the occasional fresh roadkill). So not pure subsistence hunters, but people who definitely rely on game.
posted by The Gaffer at 6:26 PM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know people who would have significantly poorer diets if it weren't for hunting (and in one case, the occasional fresh roadkill). So not pure subsistence hunters, but people who definitely rely on game.
posted by The Gaffer at 6:26 PM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
Right. Tag limits and seasonal restrictions likely prevent true "subsistence" hunting in most of the country, but supplemental hunting seems to be pretty widespread in rural areas. A lot of places also donate poached and roadkilled game to food banks, too. Some quick googling shows that there are programs in many states called "Hunt for the Hungry" or "Hunters for the Hungry" or some variation of those that allow people to donate game they've killed to food banks as well. So, not "subsistence hunting" for the hunters' own survival, but hunting to ensure that others can survive.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:38 PM on April 17, 2018
posted by tobascodagama at 6:38 PM on April 17, 2018
In conservation research circles, if you're hunting primarily because you want to eat the meat, that's subsistence hunting regardless of whether or not the hunter also has other food sources. Everyone has other food sources, nobody gets 100% of their calories from hunting.
The other types of hunting are commercial hunting and trophy hunting. Broadly speaking, subsistence hunting is rarely a major conservation problem while trophy hunting can be (depending on how well-managed it is) and commercial hunting (hunting to sell the meat or other animal products) almost always is.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:49 PM on April 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
The other types of hunting are commercial hunting and trophy hunting. Broadly speaking, subsistence hunting is rarely a major conservation problem while trophy hunting can be (depending on how well-managed it is) and commercial hunting (hunting to sell the meat or other animal products) almost always is.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:49 PM on April 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
> As an aside, many states (mine for example) allowed crossbows to be utilized by handicapped hunters in situations where they'd otherwise be illegal which evened the playing field a bit.
I'm curious, in what kind situations would crossbows be illegal if being weilded by someone who was not handicapped?
posted by homunculus at 10:51 PM on April 17, 2018
I'm curious, in what kind situations would crossbows be illegal if being weilded by someone who was not handicapped?
posted by homunculus at 10:51 PM on April 17, 2018
Crossbows are not generally considered bows for the purposes of bow-hunting season.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:49 AM on April 18, 2018
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:49 AM on April 18, 2018
In Pennsylvania, crossbows (draw weight > 125 lbs) are considered "bows" for Deer and Bear bow season. Source: page 20 of the 2018 2017-2018 Hunting/Trapping digest. In fairness, this is a relatively recent rule change.
posted by which_chick at 3:32 AM on April 18, 2018
posted by which_chick at 3:32 AM on April 18, 2018
Yep, see here too. Looks like Alabama have changed their rule restricting them to handicapped folks only while bow season was open, but lots of other states seem to fit my example.
posted by RolandOfEld at 4:59 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by RolandOfEld at 4:59 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
For those pesky suburban deer, a modern crossbow with a scope and broadheads is very easy to learn and as effective as a rifle but without the risk of a stray bullet going through someone's wall.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:13 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 6:13 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
For those pesky suburban deer, a modern crossbow with a scope and broadheads is very easy to learn and as effective as a rifle but without the risk of a stray bullet going through someone's wall.
The combination of allowing non-handicapped hunters to use a xbow, and my county implementing urban archery is what got me into hunting. (Because I don't have $2k to join a hunt club, or $5k to lease land .. There is a lottery for the state park, 1 open state preserve, and 1 open county plot, but both are over-subscribed.. Now I can hunt in swamp at the end of my street.)
That said, deer still have to be 30 yards or closer. (I can hit bullseyes at 40 yards, but not gonna chance winging a deer at 40 yards.. ) Rifles are 200+ yards :/ Plenty of times I go out and see a deer, but they don't come in close enough for a shot.
posted by k5.user at 6:34 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
The combination of allowing non-handicapped hunters to use a xbow, and my county implementing urban archery is what got me into hunting. (Because I don't have $2k to join a hunt club, or $5k to lease land .. There is a lottery for the state park, 1 open state preserve, and 1 open county plot, but both are over-subscribed.. Now I can hunt in swamp at the end of my street.)
That said, deer still have to be 30 yards or closer. (I can hit bullseyes at 40 yards, but not gonna chance winging a deer at 40 yards.. ) Rifles are 200+ yards :/ Plenty of times I go out and see a deer, but they don't come in close enough for a shot.
posted by k5.user at 6:34 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
That said, deer still have to be 30 yards or closer.
Pretty easy with suburban deer. The cocky little bastards just stand there munching on your garden or the contents of your bird feeder with a "Yeah? What are you going to do on it?" look on their faces.
It amuses me to read all the precautions rural hunters take to avoid spooking deer -- camouflage, scent management, being careful not to step on a leaf, etc. -- when you can charge suburban deer while shouting and swinging a rake and their response is to trot off at a leisurely pace and then return almost immediately once your back is turned.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:47 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
Pretty easy with suburban deer. The cocky little bastards just stand there munching on your garden or the contents of your bird feeder with a "Yeah? What are you going to do on it?" look on their faces.
It amuses me to read all the precautions rural hunters take to avoid spooking deer -- camouflage, scent management, being careful not to step on a leaf, etc. -- when you can charge suburban deer while shouting and swinging a rake and their response is to trot off at a leisurely pace and then return almost immediately once your back is turned.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:47 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm a big hiker and, being Minnesotan, I know hunters. I actually know a LOT of hunters. I used to live on the North Shore where hunters are plentiful and deer are vermin. If we had more wolves in Minnesota, there would be fewer deer. But we've hunted/scared off the apex predator and deer are free to breed like rabbits, and now we are stuck with zillions of deer. Please, hunters, come and get them! Share the venison! Venison chili is delicious!
One thing I love about conservation in Minnesota is that it makes for some of the weirdest bedfellows. People are so often pigeonholed: that guy over there loves guns, hates gay people, goes to church and waves the flag; that one over there is a pacifist who believes in equal rights for all and supports democratic candidates. But when it comes to conservation, you've got camo-wearing Hannity-listening gun-toters linking arms with the bleeding heart treehuggers. We all want the same thing: the wild lands to remain wild. Maybe for different reasons, but it's common ground. It's a good place to start.
posted by Elly Vortex at 8:25 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
One thing I love about conservation in Minnesota is that it makes for some of the weirdest bedfellows. People are so often pigeonholed: that guy over there loves guns, hates gay people, goes to church and waves the flag; that one over there is a pacifist who believes in equal rights for all and supports democratic candidates. But when it comes to conservation, you've got camo-wearing Hannity-listening gun-toters linking arms with the bleeding heart treehuggers. We all want the same thing: the wild lands to remain wild. Maybe for different reasons, but it's common ground. It's a good place to start.
posted by Elly Vortex at 8:25 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know some folks who were active in conservation/anti-development efforts in South Florida, and they said the same thing. Hunters were often their biggest allies.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:30 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 8:30 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
It amuses me to read all the precautions rural hunters take to avoid spooking deer -- camouflage, scent management, being careful not to step on a leaf, etc. -- when you can charge suburban deer while shouting and swinging a rake and their response is to trot off at a leisurely pace and then return almost immediately once your back is turned.
Heh. Yeah, my parents built their retirement home on a hillside which was a deer thoroughfare, and after the house was finished the deer just kept hanging out around the house all the time. My mom's garden was fenced off so the couldn't get to it, but we had deer lounging in the yard while the fawns played tag on the hillside all the time. Many of the people in the area were hunters, but for the most part did not tolerate poaching in the area, except for one old woman who always shot one buck a year from her porch when hunting season started, but no one was going to challenge her on it (she was something of an area matriarch.) The deer were pretty habituated to humans; one time I was doing yardwork and a young buck walked up and sniffed my hand looking for crabapples.
posted by homunculus at 8:55 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
Heh. Yeah, my parents built their retirement home on a hillside which was a deer thoroughfare, and after the house was finished the deer just kept hanging out around the house all the time. My mom's garden was fenced off so the couldn't get to it, but we had deer lounging in the yard while the fawns played tag on the hillside all the time. Many of the people in the area were hunters, but for the most part did not tolerate poaching in the area, except for one old woman who always shot one buck a year from her porch when hunting season started, but no one was going to challenge her on it (she was something of an area matriarch.) The deer were pretty habituated to humans; one time I was doing yardwork and a young buck walked up and sniffed my hand looking for crabapples.
posted by homunculus at 8:55 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
misterpatrick: "I'm curious, do Europeans and others come to the US to hunt? It's really expensive to shoot a stag in most of Europe, seems like coming to the US to hunt would be popular. "
We get lots of European hunters in BC. And bizarrely because hunting is so expensive in some parts of Europe it can be cheaper for them to hunt here even when you roll in airfare and mandatory guiding.
Jacqueline: "It amuses me to read all the precautions rural hunters take to avoid spooking deer -- camouflage, scent management, being careful not to step on a leaf, etc. -- when you can charge suburban deer while shouting and swinging a rake and their response is to trot off at a leisurely pace and then return almost immediately once your back is turned."
I drove 400kms in the last three days. I must have seen 200 deer plus a couple herds of elk on the side of the road. Come hunting season though and the only deer you see are the urban deer that live at the local park. Deer know when they are being hunted and hide. Suburban deer aren't in fear of their lives so DGAF.
posted by Mitheral at 9:25 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
In conservation research circles, if you're hunting primarily because you want to eat the meat, that's subsistence hunting regardless of whether or not the hunter also has other food sources. Everyone has other food sources, nobody gets 100% of their calories from hunting.
The other types of hunting are commercial hunting and trophy hunting
Where does varmint hunting fall into this?
posted by Hypatia at 3:17 PM on April 18, 2018
The other types of hunting are commercial hunting and trophy hunting
Where does varmint hunting fall into this?
posted by Hypatia at 3:17 PM on April 18, 2018
Rural (very rural) PA resident here. Deer are plentiful and easily seen for most of the year. I see them in the yard most nights, most mornings down the road in the big field. They have a routine and a territory and they cruise the circuit with regularity.
Come Thanksgiving weekend, though, many people go out and sight in their rifles because they're off work and it's getting on towards deer season. Gunfire rings through the ridge-n-valley section of PA every year on Black Friday. During Thanksgiving weekend, there are lots of deer hunters out and about GETTING READY to hunt deer. Not only are they sighting in guns, they're checking their trail cams, adjusting their tree stands, riding their ATVs out to check the lay of the land, messing around at their deer camps, etc. The deer would have to be deaf and blind not to notice.
Monday morning after Thanksgiving, at first light, rifle deer season opens... and for the next two weeks or so, you will not see a deer in his or her "usual haunt". They know.
Archery season and muzzleloader have their own challenges, but in rifle deer season you have to deal with the fact that the deer for sure know you are coming.
posted by which_chick at 5:11 PM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Come Thanksgiving weekend, though, many people go out and sight in their rifles because they're off work and it's getting on towards deer season. Gunfire rings through the ridge-n-valley section of PA every year on Black Friday. During Thanksgiving weekend, there are lots of deer hunters out and about GETTING READY to hunt deer. Not only are they sighting in guns, they're checking their trail cams, adjusting their tree stands, riding their ATVs out to check the lay of the land, messing around at their deer camps, etc. The deer would have to be deaf and blind not to notice.
Monday morning after Thanksgiving, at first light, rifle deer season opens... and for the next two weeks or so, you will not see a deer in his or her "usual haunt". They know.
Archery season and muzzleloader have their own challenges, but in rifle deer season you have to deal with the fact that the deer for sure know you are coming.
posted by which_chick at 5:11 PM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
So was thinking about this thread on my drive to work and noticing the conservation projects along the way. BC is sort of an outlier because 94% of the land in the province is owned by the Crown. Even so I passed 7 little Ducks Unlimited projects (and I mean little, one of the them was probably smaller than a standard suburban lot). I didn't see signs for anyone else outside of municipalities.
Not sure if the dominance of DU is straight up aggressive marketing; good relationships with landlords; or if they just end up hoover up all the grants/funding available. I do know the Nature Conservatory owns some land along the route but they don't tend to advertise that fact.
What is lacking though is any sort of conservation project funded by photographers/hikers/birders/campers. They exist; mostly as facilities to enable their hobby from what I've seen. But not in the broad spread out micro conservation projects the guys who like to shoot wildlife seem to do.
Also the directed tax attached to hunting and fishing licences is bizarrely popular amongst a group who are more generally anti taxation. Though so is the Parks Licence plate.
posted by Mitheral at 9:13 PM on April 18, 2018
Not sure if the dominance of DU is straight up aggressive marketing; good relationships with landlords; or if they just end up hoover up all the grants/funding available. I do know the Nature Conservatory owns some land along the route but they don't tend to advertise that fact.
What is lacking though is any sort of conservation project funded by photographers/hikers/birders/campers. They exist; mostly as facilities to enable their hobby from what I've seen. But not in the broad spread out micro conservation projects the guys who like to shoot wildlife seem to do.
Also the directed tax attached to hunting and fishing licences is bizarrely popular amongst a group who are more generally anti taxation. Though so is the Parks Licence plate.
posted by Mitheral at 9:13 PM on April 18, 2018
For those pesky suburban deer, a modern crossbow with a scope and broadheads is very easy to learn and as effective as a rifle but without the risk of a stray bullet going through someone's wall.
Man, if I had any idea of what to do with a deer carcass I would have already. I'm constantly threatening the ones around town with taunts of "You look like new shoes and venison jerky!"
The deer around here would be pretty easy to take with a deadfall or spring snare, too, which tends to leave a nicer hide.
I'm assuming if I wait long enough I'll watch one of the damn stilt rats play chicken and lose with a municipal bus or a retirees RV right in front of my house and I'll have to figure it out in a hurry. (Collecting road kill is legal here. I've, uh, done homework.)
That said, deer still have to be 30 yards or closer.
Does 3 yards work? That's about how close I can get to the deer around here before they even start moving - which is actually shitty because I'd rather they were much more skittish and kept farther away. Give me an apple and I can make it less than a yard. I have been tempted to lasso one if I had any idea what to do with it after that beyond get my ass kicked by a pissed off deer.
What I'm mainly trying to say is fuck off, deer, you stilt rats. Actually, stilt rats is unkind to rats because rats have brains. Thus I think I'm going to call deer stilt pigeons from now on.
Anyway, stay the fuck away from my kale, you damn stilt-pigeons, and you increase your chances of not being slippers.
PS. Please send rednecks with guns and/or apex predators. At this point I would pay money and/or do questionable things to watch a mountain lion pwning deer right here in town. Or some bow hunters. Yeah, that's the ticket, bow hunters in full camo stalking deer through a quaint sea-side Victorian artsy tourist town.
posted by loquacious at 10:04 PM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Man, if I had any idea of what to do with a deer carcass I would have already. I'm constantly threatening the ones around town with taunts of "You look like new shoes and venison jerky!"
The deer around here would be pretty easy to take with a deadfall or spring snare, too, which tends to leave a nicer hide.
I'm assuming if I wait long enough I'll watch one of the damn stilt rats play chicken and lose with a municipal bus or a retirees RV right in front of my house and I'll have to figure it out in a hurry. (Collecting road kill is legal here. I've, uh, done homework.)
That said, deer still have to be 30 yards or closer.
Does 3 yards work? That's about how close I can get to the deer around here before they even start moving - which is actually shitty because I'd rather they were much more skittish and kept farther away. Give me an apple and I can make it less than a yard. I have been tempted to lasso one if I had any idea what to do with it after that beyond get my ass kicked by a pissed off deer.
What I'm mainly trying to say is fuck off, deer, you stilt rats. Actually, stilt rats is unkind to rats because rats have brains. Thus I think I'm going to call deer stilt pigeons from now on.
Anyway, stay the fuck away from my kale, you damn stilt-pigeons, and you increase your chances of not being slippers.
PS. Please send rednecks with guns and/or apex predators. At this point I would pay money and/or do questionable things to watch a mountain lion pwning deer right here in town. Or some bow hunters. Yeah, that's the ticket, bow hunters in full camo stalking deer through a quaint sea-side Victorian artsy tourist town.
posted by loquacious at 10:04 PM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Man, if I had any idea of what to do with a deer carcass I would have already.
Look up whether there is a "Hunters for the Hungry" or similar organization in your area. They process carcasses into venison for food banks.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:09 AM on April 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Look up whether there is a "Hunters for the Hungry" or similar organization in your area. They process carcasses into venison for food banks.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:09 AM on April 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
loquacious - like Jacqueline said, hunters for the hungry, or DIY - lots of youtube videos on how to clean a deer.
My preferred - I don't field dress it (I lug the deer maybe 200 yards to my garage, so taking out the gut-sack to save weight isn't worth the effort). Cut the skin down the spine, peel back hide, use loppers above the elbow/knee joint (avoid the scent glands) cut out backstraps, hams and shoulders, bob's your uncle. Soak them in a salt-icewater bath in a cooler for a few days, then dice/chop/grind/freeze.
posted by k5.user at 9:20 AM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
My preferred - I don't field dress it (I lug the deer maybe 200 yards to my garage, so taking out the gut-sack to save weight isn't worth the effort). Cut the skin down the spine, peel back hide, use loppers above the elbow/knee joint (avoid the scent glands) cut out backstraps, hams and shoulders, bob's your uncle. Soak them in a salt-icewater bath in a cooler for a few days, then dice/chop/grind/freeze.
posted by k5.user at 9:20 AM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Or if you want to learn how to process it into meat, hides, etc for yourself, there's probably tutorials on YouTube. (There seem to be tutorials for EVERYTHING on YouTube.)
posted by Jacqueline at 9:21 AM on April 19, 2018
posted by Jacqueline at 9:21 AM on April 19, 2018
Where does varmint hunting fall into this?
My take, per Anticipation's (really concise) definition above:
Are they eating the varmint? Subsistence.
Are they mounting the varmint on a wall? Trophy.
Are they doing it for fun or as a guided activity? Trophy.
Are they protecting crops or livestock...
A) that they sell? Commercial.
B) that they eat themselves? Subsistence.
Sure, it could be a mix of any of the above but at that point common sense has to take over somewhere.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:54 AM on April 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
My take, per Anticipation's (really concise) definition above:
Are they eating the varmint? Subsistence.
Are they mounting the varmint on a wall? Trophy.
Are they doing it for fun or as a guided activity? Trophy.
Are they protecting crops or livestock...
A) that they sell? Commercial.
B) that they eat themselves? Subsistence.
Sure, it could be a mix of any of the above but at that point common sense has to take over somewhere.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:54 AM on April 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
common sense has to take over somewhere.
It's been open season on common sense for some time.
posted by homunculus at 4:06 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's been open season on common sense for some time.
posted by homunculus at 4:06 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
What is lacking though is any sort of conservation project funded by photographers/hikers/birders/campers.
Around where I live, it seems like about half of the Protected Areas are Audubon properties. Birders have been on this for a long time now. Wildlands Trust and The Nature Conservancy also have big presences, and hikers/campers certainly contribute to those. Personally I'm a member of the Appalachian Mountain Club, which doesn't own a lot of actual land but does partner with federal agencies to maintain public lands, as well as engaging in many educational outreach programs and quite a bit of environmental lobbying, and yeah does also maintain a network of trail and shelters for hikers. I'm also a member of the Maine Island Trail Association, which does yeoman's work every year cleaning up coastal islands in Maine which otherwise would surely be as trash-covered as the ones here in Boston harbor.
I don't know of anything in my neck of the woods that Ducks Unlimited or any other hunting organizations are doing. I suspect this stuff is pretty regional.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:31 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Around where I live, it seems like about half of the Protected Areas are Audubon properties. Birders have been on this for a long time now. Wildlands Trust and The Nature Conservancy also have big presences, and hikers/campers certainly contribute to those. Personally I'm a member of the Appalachian Mountain Club, which doesn't own a lot of actual land but does partner with federal agencies to maintain public lands, as well as engaging in many educational outreach programs and quite a bit of environmental lobbying, and yeah does also maintain a network of trail and shelters for hikers. I'm also a member of the Maine Island Trail Association, which does yeoman's work every year cleaning up coastal islands in Maine which otherwise would surely be as trash-covered as the ones here in Boston harbor.
I don't know of anything in my neck of the woods that Ducks Unlimited or any other hunting organizations are doing. I suspect this stuff is pretty regional.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:31 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think of varmint "hunting" as more pest control than anything else. Unless you just enjoy murdering squirrels for some reason, in which case it sounds closest to trophy hunting only without actually keeping the trophies. But sure, not everything fits perfectly into the framework I gave above. There are edge cases, but where aren't there edge cases?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:34 PM on April 20, 2018
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:34 PM on April 20, 2018
Hunter here.
Hunted small game as a kid. Stopped until my 30s because I moved to Texas, a place where only the landed and rich can hunt.
Now, to be able to hunt, I drive to Wyoming once a year.
I wish road salvage was legal here in TX, but it ain't.
As for what to do with a carcass, watch some videos, but a Kevlar glove and some nitrile gloves and dig in.
Getting started is tough because many hunters treat hunting like a combination private club/political party. Me and my friends have formed a pinko hunting group. We non-toxic, non-mysoginistic hunters exist and would like nothing more than to help others get into the activity. I take people with me whenever I can. Sadly, I have no advice on how to find like-minded people.
As for Governor Walker, look into his connections to Dr. Deer, James Kroll
Walker is looking to Kroll to turn Wisconsin hunting into a copy of Texas hunting, monetizing game and seeing public land hunting as communism. Fight that shit Even if you ain't a hunter.
posted by Seamus at 6:34 PM on April 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Hunted small game as a kid. Stopped until my 30s because I moved to Texas, a place where only the landed and rich can hunt.
Now, to be able to hunt, I drive to Wyoming once a year.
I wish road salvage was legal here in TX, but it ain't.
As for what to do with a carcass, watch some videos, but a Kevlar glove and some nitrile gloves and dig in.
Getting started is tough because many hunters treat hunting like a combination private club/political party. Me and my friends have formed a pinko hunting group. We non-toxic, non-mysoginistic hunters exist and would like nothing more than to help others get into the activity. I take people with me whenever I can. Sadly, I have no advice on how to find like-minded people.
As for Governor Walker, look into his connections to Dr. Deer, James Kroll
Walker is looking to Kroll to turn Wisconsin hunting into a copy of Texas hunting, monetizing game and seeing public land hunting as communism. Fight that shit Even if you ain't a hunter.
posted by Seamus at 6:34 PM on April 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
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- the complete failure of the Walker DNR to manage chronic wasting disease, which makes me worried about prion diseases
- Having to give a single penny to the gun industry
posted by rockindata at 6:32 AM on April 17, 2018 [14 favorites]