change the dress code from khaki to black pants, in part to hide stains
May 1, 2018 8:32 PM Subscribe
Noble charter schools, which cover about 10% of Chicago's high school students, have discipline policies that have been described as dehumanizing. These includes strong restrictions on bathroom use, including for girls on their periods.
The solution: "Allow girls to tie a Noble sweater around their waist, to hide the blood stains. The administrator then sends an email to staff announcing the name of the girl who has permission to wear her sweater tied around her waist, so that she doesn’t receive demerits for violating dress code."
Their student/parent handbook (pdf) describes 19 kinds of demerits (pages 4-5), some with subcategories, and a strict dress code (pages 17-18, long after the list of offenses for which students can get expelled). Hair color may be "colored or highlighted only in a natural human hair color," and students can be suspended for using the wrong dye.
They've been getting discipline complaints for years--teachers have complained that they get audited by how well they keep the class quiet, but not on their teaching abilities--and the apparently new policy of "wear different clothes to hide the stains" instead of "let girls go to the bathroom when they need to" is getting wider attention.
The president of the Noble Network has said that "where our student code of conduct has been applied overzealously, we’ve worked with school leaders and staff members to correct those issues and make sure we stay centered on what matters most — great results for our students."
They have 98% minority students, with a 40% turnover rate.
The solution: "Allow girls to tie a Noble sweater around their waist, to hide the blood stains. The administrator then sends an email to staff announcing the name of the girl who has permission to wear her sweater tied around her waist, so that she doesn’t receive demerits for violating dress code."
Their student/parent handbook (pdf) describes 19 kinds of demerits (pages 4-5), some with subcategories, and a strict dress code (pages 17-18, long after the list of offenses for which students can get expelled). Hair color may be "colored or highlighted only in a natural human hair color," and students can be suspended for using the wrong dye.
They've been getting discipline complaints for years--teachers have complained that they get audited by how well they keep the class quiet, but not on their teaching abilities--and the apparently new policy of "wear different clothes to hide the stains" instead of "let girls go to the bathroom when they need to" is getting wider attention.
The president of the Noble Network has said that "where our student code of conduct has been applied overzealously, we’ve worked with school leaders and staff members to correct those issues and make sure we stay centered on what matters most — great results for our students."
They have 98% minority students, with a 40% turnover rate.
I had one of the most visceral, shaking-with-rage, tears-in-my-eyes reactions to this story that I've ever had.
I remember being 14 and trying to deal with my body changing shape and bleeding every month and monthly pain like I'd never felt before and knowing that this was considered shameful and something to hide. If the adults around me had been effectively shining a spotlight on me and making me carry a sign all day at school that read "I HAVE MY PERIOD" because everybody knows that's what's going on when one student has dispensation to wear a sweatshirt tied around the waist…
I was already struggling with depression and I think that would have made me want to kill myself.
How unbearably cruel these adults are.
posted by Lexica at 9:00 PM on May 1, 2018 [74 favorites]
I remember being 14 and trying to deal with my body changing shape and bleeding every month and monthly pain like I'd never felt before and knowing that this was considered shameful and something to hide. If the adults around me had been effectively shining a spotlight on me and making me carry a sign all day at school that read "I HAVE MY PERIOD" because everybody knows that's what's going on when one student has dispensation to wear a sweatshirt tied around the waist…
I was already struggling with depression and I think that would have made me want to kill myself.
How unbearably cruel these adults are.
posted by Lexica at 9:00 PM on May 1, 2018 [74 favorites]
A friend of mine taught 2nd grade at a charter school in New Orleans and can tell some very similar stories ("zero tolerance" for noise from 8 year olds!!!!!) If you think this isn't happening at the "high achieving" charter schools in your state, think again.
posted by muddgirl at 9:08 PM on May 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 9:08 PM on May 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
tear this mf'er down
posted by gucci mane at 9:09 PM on May 1, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 9:09 PM on May 1, 2018 [21 favorites]
Sweet god, “just hide the bloodstains”. What is wrong with these people?
posted by corb at 9:36 PM on May 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by corb at 9:36 PM on May 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
What is wrong with these people?
They are two things:
1) capitalist
2) conservative
...the rest follows naturally.
Everyone involved with Noble is a monster of one category or another. The entire enterprise exists solely to steal money from the state, and to abuse children in a legally-acceptable manner. This is the inevitable result of the charter school/voucher concept.
posted by aramaic at 9:51 PM on May 1, 2018 [69 favorites]
They are two things:
1) capitalist
2) conservative
...the rest follows naturally.
Everyone involved with Noble is a monster of one category or another. The entire enterprise exists solely to steal money from the state, and to abuse children in a legally-acceptable manner. This is the inevitable result of the charter school/voucher concept.
posted by aramaic at 9:51 PM on May 1, 2018 [69 favorites]
Sweet god, “just hide the bloodstains”. What is wrong with these people?
Now, now, I've been told that charter schools are hotbeds of innovation that give bright students the opportunity to suceed in schools, away from shitty situations.
Is that not the case?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:58 PM on May 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
Now, now, I've been told that charter schools are hotbeds of innovation that give bright students the opportunity to suceed in schools, away from shitty situations.
Is that not the case?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:58 PM on May 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
There is a - sometimes subtle, sometimes more obviously stated - idea that progressive schools don't "work" for black kids, or aren't what black parents want[note: author is pro-charter-schools and kind of racist.] An idea that if you are a white middle-class parent of course you want your kids to go to the kind of school where everyone sits in a circle and is free to be you and me, but the right education for Those People involves a level of compliance and obedience that you would find horrifying.
And, you know, it's a neat trick to take horrible pedagogy and turn it around and say "but that's what Those People want, that's what Those People need," but it distracts people from what should be obvious: if anybody's kids deserve education that fosters independence and creativity and critical thinking, everybody's kids do. If anybody's kids deserve an education that is based on mutual respect and caring, everybody's kids do. If anybody's kids deserve to not have to BLEED ON THEIR PANTS, everybody's kids do.
posted by Jeanne at 10:04 PM on May 1, 2018 [101 favorites]
And, you know, it's a neat trick to take horrible pedagogy and turn it around and say "but that's what Those People want, that's what Those People need," but it distracts people from what should be obvious: if anybody's kids deserve education that fosters independence and creativity and critical thinking, everybody's kids do. If anybody's kids deserve an education that is based on mutual respect and caring, everybody's kids do. If anybody's kids deserve to not have to BLEED ON THEIR PANTS, everybody's kids do.
posted by Jeanne at 10:04 PM on May 1, 2018 [101 favorites]
Disgraceful.
posted by Coaticass at 11:00 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Coaticass at 11:00 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
For a supposedly freedom-loving people, you Americans sure seem to like to meddle in authoritarianism (re: schools, police, correctional institutions, HOAs, the presidency...)
Those poor kids!
posted by Harald74 at 11:08 PM on May 1, 2018 [17 favorites]
Those poor kids!
posted by Harald74 at 11:08 PM on May 1, 2018 [17 favorites]
America was founded on the notion of "freedom for the deserving, important people; everyone else needs to serve those people's whims."
I like the concept of charter schools... it took me a while to figure out that my reasons for that were "I think mainstream schools are too regimented and inflexible" and that a whole lot of conservatives think "mainstream schools are not enough like prisons."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:14 PM on May 1, 2018 [36 favorites]
I like the concept of charter schools... it took me a while to figure out that my reasons for that were "I think mainstream schools are too regimented and inflexible" and that a whole lot of conservatives think "mainstream schools are not enough like prisons."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:14 PM on May 1, 2018 [36 favorites]
I've been told that charter schools are hotbeds of innovation that give bright students the opportunity to suceed in schools, away from shitty situations
Charter schools, like other forms of schooling such as homeschooling, are a mixed bag. I’ve met a lot of incredibly bright and together children of unconventional parents who had great learning experiences with homeschooling- yet there are also terrifying fundamentalists who barely impart literacy. So some charter schools have good ratings, and are able to use their flexibility to provide an amazing experience, and some are apparently hell-pits where monsters pretend to be educators.
posted by corb at 11:17 PM on May 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Charter schools, like other forms of schooling such as homeschooling, are a mixed bag. I’ve met a lot of incredibly bright and together children of unconventional parents who had great learning experiences with homeschooling- yet there are also terrifying fundamentalists who barely impart literacy. So some charter schools have good ratings, and are able to use their flexibility to provide an amazing experience, and some are apparently hell-pits where monsters pretend to be educators.
posted by corb at 11:17 PM on May 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
As if having to bleed through your khaki pants and wear a sweater around your waist to hide the bloodstains wasn't humiliating enough, the second article also points out that 58% of the students at one of the schools have no in-home laundry facilities. This was the school where they were successful in lobbying to get the dress code amended to include black pants so you know, the pants may still have bloodstains on them because the students still can't easily do the washing, but at least it won't show.
I just can't even.
posted by Athanassiel at 11:31 PM on May 1, 2018 [23 favorites]
I just can't even.
posted by Athanassiel at 11:31 PM on May 1, 2018 [23 favorites]
This is horrific. This is child abuse. What the ever loving fuck is wrong with people.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:51 PM on May 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:51 PM on May 1, 2018 [11 favorites]
I've witnessed racial bullshit like this as well as experienced a lot of otherist bullshit like this in public schools, including being personally targeted to basically be locked out of most of my 3rd and 4th grade years by a really shitty teacher who'd lock me in the supply closet in the offices because she couldn't deal with my lip about her being wrong about a bunch of stuff, like the Earth not being the center of the Universe, much less Solar System and other weird, perverse throwbacks.
Charter schools, like other forms of schooling such as homeschooling, are a mixed bag. I’ve met a lot of incredibly bright and together children of unconventional parents who had great learning experiences with homeschooling-
*raises hand proudly*
I did about 2+ years for middle school and junior high under what was probably a weird religious "Umbrella Program" home school, because of stuff like the above, and it was officially started by me dramatically walking out of my 7th grade homeroom after having had enough from a bully.
I announced this by bodily depositing the bully on my drunk, openly alcoholic homeroom teacher's desk after dozens of complaints - and then daring her to lay a hand on me or stop me from walking out the f'ing door. Come on, lady, you're on your third coffee cup of vodka and it's 8am and I just dumped 140 pounds of bully on your desk from the back row and you're going to tell me to not leave?
So gone. Never seeing you again, nor the inside of this classroom or school.
And I didn't. Walked/ran the 3+ miles home bawling the whole way and worried someone might actually follow me. No, they didn't. (That school was seriously messed up. Want to hear about the rich marina/harbor district kids doing lines of blow in the bathroom in 7th grade? Fuckin' hell, SoCal.)
Anyway, I'm very, very thankful for those 2+ self directed years. They taught me how to teach myself, how to use a library, how to do research, how to undertake DIY projects and how to self-motivate and be myself, and self-direct and entertain.
I crammed a lot of useful information and skills in my head in those few years, and it's a lot more than I learned in the sum total of my public classroom time besides what not to do, and to recognize when people were trying to lie to me, abuse me, control me or power trip on/about or in my general area.
I still have mixed feelings about going back to public high school because my dad insisted it would build character. I'm still not so sure about that. Mainly I discovered smoking, getting thwacked on cough syrup and makin' out. Most of the friends I knew in HS I already knew and hung out with, most of the experiences I had were bullshit, and I think the most I learned in any of my classes was my jewelry elective class.
It's not a huge regret, but in hindsight I wish I just kept homeschooling, hit up community college early via early GED, maybe emancipated myself by 15-16 and blew the hell out of my conservative religious background and white-ass hometown.
Because all that Darwinistic cruelty I experienced from both teachers and authority figures and peers was some seriously dark and messed up bullshit.
I could have skipped out on all of that. None of that taught me to be a better human.
If anything it made it really difficult to understand or to retain the empathy, sensitivity and curiosity I was naturally born with, and I still chafe about and wonder at what I might have lost in the hazing and experience.
posted by loquacious at 11:53 PM on May 1, 2018 [40 favorites]
Charter schools, like other forms of schooling such as homeschooling, are a mixed bag. I’ve met a lot of incredibly bright and together children of unconventional parents who had great learning experiences with homeschooling-
*raises hand proudly*
I did about 2+ years for middle school and junior high under what was probably a weird religious "Umbrella Program" home school, because of stuff like the above, and it was officially started by me dramatically walking out of my 7th grade homeroom after having had enough from a bully.
I announced this by bodily depositing the bully on my drunk, openly alcoholic homeroom teacher's desk after dozens of complaints - and then daring her to lay a hand on me or stop me from walking out the f'ing door. Come on, lady, you're on your third coffee cup of vodka and it's 8am and I just dumped 140 pounds of bully on your desk from the back row and you're going to tell me to not leave?
So gone. Never seeing you again, nor the inside of this classroom or school.
And I didn't. Walked/ran the 3+ miles home bawling the whole way and worried someone might actually follow me. No, they didn't. (That school was seriously messed up. Want to hear about the rich marina/harbor district kids doing lines of blow in the bathroom in 7th grade? Fuckin' hell, SoCal.)
Anyway, I'm very, very thankful for those 2+ self directed years. They taught me how to teach myself, how to use a library, how to do research, how to undertake DIY projects and how to self-motivate and be myself, and self-direct and entertain.
I crammed a lot of useful information and skills in my head in those few years, and it's a lot more than I learned in the sum total of my public classroom time besides what not to do, and to recognize when people were trying to lie to me, abuse me, control me or power trip on/about or in my general area.
I still have mixed feelings about going back to public high school because my dad insisted it would build character. I'm still not so sure about that. Mainly I discovered smoking, getting thwacked on cough syrup and makin' out. Most of the friends I knew in HS I already knew and hung out with, most of the experiences I had were bullshit, and I think the most I learned in any of my classes was my jewelry elective class.
It's not a huge regret, but in hindsight I wish I just kept homeschooling, hit up community college early via early GED, maybe emancipated myself by 15-16 and blew the hell out of my conservative religious background and white-ass hometown.
Because all that Darwinistic cruelty I experienced from both teachers and authority figures and peers was some seriously dark and messed up bullshit.
I could have skipped out on all of that. None of that taught me to be a better human.
If anything it made it really difficult to understand or to retain the empathy, sensitivity and curiosity I was naturally born with, and I still chafe about and wonder at what I might have lost in the hazing and experience.
posted by loquacious at 11:53 PM on May 1, 2018 [40 favorites]
I'm appalled. I went to a a public high school w/ admission standards (so, public magnet) that enforced student body primarily through grades (of you didn't maintain a C average each year you were put back in your neighborhood school).
Rules were simple don't be late and and don't go to school in a bikini (i think offically shorts had to be fingertip length, and middrift couldn't show, but it was really only enforced if you came to school in a bikini) That was pretty much it. Hair (whatever), belts (who cares?), shoes(have to have... Though I'm pretty sure one or two of my classmates went around barefoot as much as possible). Other Generic school rules apply, no drugs or weapons.
Guess what, we did absolutely fantastic.
No one lost instruction because they didn't have a belt. Teachers spent time teaching! We didn't have to interrupt class to pee, or listen to a student get demerits or be taken out of a room. All of that takes instruction time.
When I hear the only way to succeed is through structure, I state the best way to succeed is through mutual respect. You respect the kids to show up and do the work, and if they don't they can't stay at the school. There were more regemented schools to go too. It's a shame that patents trying to get quality education for their kids feel as if prison structure is the only option. It shouldn't be!
You make your charter a place where kids want to excell and be, then kids will do that! Hair style doesn't make a kid learn or not learn. Belts dont make a kid learn or not. Having to told their pee takes away from the learning as it is very distracting and uncomfortable. Having to hide and defend bodily functions takes away from learning. Socialization is learning (taking in the halls, maintaining friendships, etc). Every moment of in class discipline takes away from student teaching time, so teachers should choose wisely.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:04 AM on May 2, 2018 [19 favorites]
Rules were simple don't be late and and don't go to school in a bikini (i think offically shorts had to be fingertip length, and middrift couldn't show, but it was really only enforced if you came to school in a bikini) That was pretty much it. Hair (whatever), belts (who cares?), shoes(have to have... Though I'm pretty sure one or two of my classmates went around barefoot as much as possible). Other Generic school rules apply, no drugs or weapons.
Guess what, we did absolutely fantastic.
No one lost instruction because they didn't have a belt. Teachers spent time teaching! We didn't have to interrupt class to pee, or listen to a student get demerits or be taken out of a room. All of that takes instruction time.
When I hear the only way to succeed is through structure, I state the best way to succeed is through mutual respect. You respect the kids to show up and do the work, and if they don't they can't stay at the school. There were more regemented schools to go too. It's a shame that patents trying to get quality education for their kids feel as if prison structure is the only option. It shouldn't be!
You make your charter a place where kids want to excell and be, then kids will do that! Hair style doesn't make a kid learn or not learn. Belts dont make a kid learn or not. Having to told their pee takes away from the learning as it is very distracting and uncomfortable. Having to hide and defend bodily functions takes away from learning. Socialization is learning (taking in the halls, maintaining friendships, etc). Every moment of in class discipline takes away from student teaching time, so teachers should choose wisely.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:04 AM on May 2, 2018 [19 favorites]
So some charter schools have good ratings, and are able to use their flexibility to provide an amazing experience, and some are apparently hell-pits where monsters pretend to be educators.
Charter schools have means of gaming ratings that other schools don't have because they're not required to educate all comers. In particular, they're able to "encourage" English language learners and kids with learning disabilities (i.e. two groups that might drag down test scores) to leave. And, of course, your test scores and college admissions rate say nothing about whether you school's "commitment to discipline" (or whatever other euphemism) is rooted in racism.
posted by hoyland at 3:12 AM on May 2, 2018 [32 favorites]
Charter schools have means of gaming ratings that other schools don't have because they're not required to educate all comers. In particular, they're able to "encourage" English language learners and kids with learning disabilities (i.e. two groups that might drag down test scores) to leave. And, of course, your test scores and college admissions rate say nothing about whether you school's "commitment to discipline" (or whatever other euphemism) is rooted in racism.
posted by hoyland at 3:12 AM on May 2, 2018 [32 favorites]
Privately owned schools in general is not something I can get behind at all.
This is just more evidence for the pile.
I do definitely see value in very different forms of education to those provided at most public schools, but As ErisLordFreedom said, "it took me a while to figure out that my reasons for that were "I think mainstream schools are too regimented and inflexible""
Private schooling in this sense is just a way to let the wealthy and advantaged have better forms of education (at times) while leaving everyone else to struggle in public schools and not get involved in actually trying to reform and improve public education, which most certainly needs significant reforms.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 3:24 AM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
This is just more evidence for the pile.
I do definitely see value in very different forms of education to those provided at most public schools, but As ErisLordFreedom said, "it took me a while to figure out that my reasons for that were "I think mainstream schools are too regimented and inflexible""
Private schooling in this sense is just a way to let the wealthy and advantaged have better forms of education (at times) while leaving everyone else to struggle in public schools and not get involved in actually trying to reform and improve public education, which most certainly needs significant reforms.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 3:24 AM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
I still can't get over having to call an escort to take you to the potty. How much does that job pay?
posted by Miss Cellania at 3:54 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Miss Cellania at 3:54 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
These people need to read up on Canadian residential schools and their impact and then reflect on their own issues.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:03 AM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 4:03 AM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
I still can't get over having to call an escort to take you to the potty. How much does that job pay?
The pay isn't even the issue. Imagine going home in the evening and telling people that your role in life is to make *sure* that children actually urinate.
posted by jaduncan at 4:05 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
The pay isn't even the issue. Imagine going home in the evening and telling people that your role in life is to make *sure* that children actually urinate.
posted by jaduncan at 4:05 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's episodes like this that lay bare the connection between the education "reform" movement and neoliberal capitalism, in that the suppression of ordinary bodily functions is a common feature of workplaces lacking any sort of democratic governance. Corey Robin has written frequently on the issue.
posted by Cash4Lead at 5:10 AM on May 2, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by Cash4Lead at 5:10 AM on May 2, 2018 [19 favorites]
Urgh. One of the people forever on my shitlist is a teacher who blithely told me to get my school jumper clean before tomorrow or have my first ever detention. I explained that it wouldn't be possible, shaking like a leaf, because i wouldn't be getting home until 8 o clock (parents shift worked, and I spent a LOT of time waiting around in cars and staff rooms) and then we didn't have enough money on the electric meter to run the washing machine anyway.
She just did this sort of vague smiley handwave and said "I'm sure you'll manage something". So yeah, spent that day surreptitiously washing my jumper in the sink and the next day freezing cold in a damp jumper. I'm sure that was highly beneficial to my education.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:27 AM on May 2, 2018 [39 favorites]
She just did this sort of vague smiley handwave and said "I'm sure you'll manage something". So yeah, spent that day surreptitiously washing my jumper in the sink and the next day freezing cold in a damp jumper. I'm sure that was highly beneficial to my education.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:27 AM on May 2, 2018 [39 favorites]
What struck me was that, in one of those articles, someone said that these schools value those children who can be influenced and indoctrinated.
I’d like to see how any of the administrators of this system would react if anyone treated THEIR children this way.
posted by droplet at 5:31 AM on May 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
I’d like to see how any of the administrators of this system would react if anyone treated THEIR children this way.
posted by droplet at 5:31 AM on May 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
Point #1: I used to work at a school somewhat like this on the south side of Chicago, just a few blocks from one of the Noble schools. It was absolutely about policing students’ bodies in the name of keeping order in the learning environment. Having come from a public school that kept order through fear (except no one feared me so there wasn’t much order in my classroom), the charter school appealed to me at first. I wanted to teach in a place that was calm, where we spoke to students in a friendly tone despite the ridiculous number of rules to follow. But as the school grew, the friendly tone eroded. Soon I felt locked in a power struggle, where students rebelled against the unreasonableness of the demerit system. I felt that we were harming the kids, and I left that job.
If I had it to do again I would never have worked there at all, but I hadn’t sharpened my analysis of it adequately. Now I know that dehumanizing beaurocracy sometimes has a friendly tone. Sometimes the people involved really care. But that doesn’t make it okay
Point #2: I am friends with two amazing, dedicated educators who work at Noble schools and are part of a fight to unionize. They want teachers (who in their network are generally young and often come from Teach for America) to have a voice as a way to advocate for students. Based on the stories they tell me, this is not even the worst of the way students are treated in their schools.
posted by mai at 5:35 AM on May 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
If I had it to do again I would never have worked there at all, but I hadn’t sharpened my analysis of it adequately. Now I know that dehumanizing beaurocracy sometimes has a friendly tone. Sometimes the people involved really care. But that doesn’t make it okay
Point #2: I am friends with two amazing, dedicated educators who work at Noble schools and are part of a fight to unionize. They want teachers (who in their network are generally young and often come from Teach for America) to have a voice as a way to advocate for students. Based on the stories they tell me, this is not even the worst of the way students are treated in their schools.
posted by mai at 5:35 AM on May 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
These people need to read up on Canadian residential schools and their impact and then reflect on their own issues.
Yeah, I do think a lot of this framework of "structure" is racist code for "we need to civilize black and brown people."
posted by lazuli at 5:45 AM on May 2, 2018 [19 favorites]
Yeah, I do think a lot of this framework of "structure" is racist code for "we need to civilize black and brown people."
posted by lazuli at 5:45 AM on May 2, 2018 [19 favorites]
Thanks, Rahm (and Bruce Rauner, who actually has one of the schools named after him).
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:37 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:37 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I’d like to see how any of the administrators of this system would react if anyone treated THEIR children this way.
I suspect their home life is similarly regimented.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:38 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I suspect their home life is similarly regimented.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:38 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
That Corey Robin piece actually reminds me of a thing I’ve been thinking about a lot, which is the difference in behavior standards expected in low income workplaces and medium to high income workplaces. I remember being really conflicted back when I worked for a social services organization in NYC that was training workers to re enter the workforce. They were spending a lot of time on teaching what was essentially subservience, and I bristled- but then I’ve also spent time doing social work for homeless clients who often had lost jobs for being insufficiently subservient.
I don’t know that it’s helpful to teach everyone open minded ways to question authority when people are still allowed to be fired - and frequently are in lower wage workplaces - for questioning authority or showing insufficient deference or wearing one piece of their uniform wrong.
The way, I think, to make schools less focused on training submission to authority is to make workplaces less focused on catering to the ego of petty tyrants.
posted by corb at 6:41 AM on May 2, 2018 [20 favorites]
I don’t know that it’s helpful to teach everyone open minded ways to question authority when people are still allowed to be fired - and frequently are in lower wage workplaces - for questioning authority or showing insufficient deference or wearing one piece of their uniform wrong.
The way, I think, to make schools less focused on training submission to authority is to make workplaces less focused on catering to the ego of petty tyrants.
posted by corb at 6:41 AM on May 2, 2018 [20 favorites]
*sighs*
The point of Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish is to deconstruct the social and political impacts of a surveillance society and the penal system. It was not meant to be an instruction manual.
posted by Fizz at 6:51 AM on May 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
The point of Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish is to deconstruct the social and political impacts of a surveillance society and the penal system. It was not meant to be an instruction manual.
posted by Fizz at 6:51 AM on May 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
I am friends with two amazing, dedicated educators who work at Noble schools and are part of a fight to unionize. They want teachers (who in their network are generally young and often come from Teach for America) to have a voice as a way to advocate for students. Based on the stories they tell me, this is not even the worst of the way students are treated in their schools.
I've been glad to see the inroads the unions have made in charter schools in Chicago, but with reservations; more and more it seems like trying to be a "good" teacher in one of these intrinsically monstrous institutions is like trying to be a good prison guard. (I will confess to having an intrinsic suspicion of the motives of anyone who chooses a profession where they spend their days surrounded by people who are largely helpless and have few enforceable rights, over whom they can exercise a level of authority that would not be tolerated by people with any choice; certainly, when I think back to my grade school teachers, it was clear that this ability to play the despot was the selling point of the gig for many of them.)
posted by enn at 7:49 AM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I've been glad to see the inroads the unions have made in charter schools in Chicago, but with reservations; more and more it seems like trying to be a "good" teacher in one of these intrinsically monstrous institutions is like trying to be a good prison guard. (I will confess to having an intrinsic suspicion of the motives of anyone who chooses a profession where they spend their days surrounded by people who are largely helpless and have few enforceable rights, over whom they can exercise a level of authority that would not be tolerated by people with any choice; certainly, when I think back to my grade school teachers, it was clear that this ability to play the despot was the selling point of the gig for many of them.)
posted by enn at 7:49 AM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
difference in behavior standards expected in low income workplaces and medium to high income workplaces
As I've slowly moved from retail/service jobs into office jobs into "project manager" office jobs, I'm amazed at how much LESS WORK the office jobs are expected to do.
Retail jobs: 8 hour shift = show up at X time, work 2 hours; 10 min (legally mandated) break; work 2 hours; 1/2 hour (legally mandated) unpaid lunch (bring or buy); work 2 hours; 10 min break; work 1 hr 40 minutes, done. And the work is usually on-your-feet, constantly moving, smile at absolutely everyone, and never say "no" to a customer or any manager. Penalties for being late; penalties for leaving early; penalties for not being entirely focused on the job all day.
Office desk job: show up within 20 minutes of X time. Work. At some point during the day, take a lunch; make sure it's at least half an hour long. Take breaks between sections of your workday. Drink coffee provided by office, or pay for better coffee from cafe across the street; sometimes work provides snacks; for larger meetings, work often provides lunch. The work is sitting at a desk; you can scowl most of the day if the work is frustrating; if someone calls you, you can talk and keep working - or talk and not keep working; as long as a reasonable amount of work gets done every day, nobody's managing how much time you're spending on the work.
These students are being indoctrinated into the first kind of job, with a curriculum that fits Gatto's Six-Lesson Schoolteacher like someone used it as a rubric to design the curriculum.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:52 AM on May 2, 2018 [49 favorites]
As I've slowly moved from retail/service jobs into office jobs into "project manager" office jobs, I'm amazed at how much LESS WORK the office jobs are expected to do.
Retail jobs: 8 hour shift = show up at X time, work 2 hours; 10 min (legally mandated) break; work 2 hours; 1/2 hour (legally mandated) unpaid lunch (bring or buy); work 2 hours; 10 min break; work 1 hr 40 minutes, done. And the work is usually on-your-feet, constantly moving, smile at absolutely everyone, and never say "no" to a customer or any manager. Penalties for being late; penalties for leaving early; penalties for not being entirely focused on the job all day.
Office desk job: show up within 20 minutes of X time. Work. At some point during the day, take a lunch; make sure it's at least half an hour long. Take breaks between sections of your workday. Drink coffee provided by office, or pay for better coffee from cafe across the street; sometimes work provides snacks; for larger meetings, work often provides lunch. The work is sitting at a desk; you can scowl most of the day if the work is frustrating; if someone calls you, you can talk and keep working - or talk and not keep working; as long as a reasonable amount of work gets done every day, nobody's managing how much time you're spending on the work.
These students are being indoctrinated into the first kind of job, with a curriculum that fits Gatto's Six-Lesson Schoolteacher like someone used it as a rubric to design the curriculum.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:52 AM on May 2, 2018 [49 favorites]
Everything else aside, wealthy majority authority figures not allowing poor minorities to talk to each other (through enforcing silence during breaks and lunch) is... Uh, problematic.
Also, one of the articles mentioned how poor parents tend to emphasize obedience rather than creativity or engagement. I'd hesitate to condemn them for that; there are a lot of reasons to come to the conclusion that being docile and perfectly obedient will keep you safe and reward you (including the appaling number of people who insist, for example, that when a black child is physically abused by a police officer it is her own fault for being "disrespectful"). Or that not being deferential will be futile at best.
And yet, there comes a point where keeping your head down and being obedient actually decreases your social and professional opportunities, and there is no certain way to figure out when the situation changes, and cultural messaging still suggests that we are essentially "troublemakers" or "sassy" or etc. Basically, being quiet and docile--> damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I also think that the idea of bathroom escorts is a dangerous one, rife for abuse. What if the man (or woman) taking the children and teens to the bathroom is some kind of pervert and uses the time alone to abuse them? What protection do they have?
At any rate, I'm pretty sure that forcing a student to stand for 20-30 minutes waiting for a bathroom escort, denying them access to a bathroom, or making them sit or stand in their own blood stains or have a urinary accident (all mentioned by teachers in the comments as being regular occurences) is corporal punishment. Making a teenage girl announce to the world that she is menstruating is cruel.
I once had a teacher who I liked and respected a lot. Our class was rowdy and troublesome, and there was one girl who was usually gossiping and flirting instead of learning. One day she asked to go to her locker, but wouldn't say why. "Just because!" She kept saying, as her face got redder. It was obvious to everyone why she wanted to go, but she was clearly uncomfortable. I guess he was frustrated that day, because he seemed bent on making her say it. She finally exploded "i need a pad okay!" Looking like she was going to cry. He let her go, but muttered, annoyed, semi-under his breath, sort of rolling his eyes and shaking his head, "I'm a biology teacher!"
I had always hated her and liked him, but that day I hated him and felt terrible for her. And I wanted to stand up for her, for her right to privacy and her right to be embarassed, but I didn't know how. I wish I had said something, like "you're a teacher but she's just a teenager and that wasn't okay". And I want to stand up for all those girls and say the same.
posted by windykites at 7:53 AM on May 2, 2018 [15 favorites]
Also, one of the articles mentioned how poor parents tend to emphasize obedience rather than creativity or engagement. I'd hesitate to condemn them for that; there are a lot of reasons to come to the conclusion that being docile and perfectly obedient will keep you safe and reward you (including the appaling number of people who insist, for example, that when a black child is physically abused by a police officer it is her own fault for being "disrespectful"). Or that not being deferential will be futile at best.
And yet, there comes a point where keeping your head down and being obedient actually decreases your social and professional opportunities, and there is no certain way to figure out when the situation changes, and cultural messaging still suggests that we are essentially "troublemakers" or "sassy" or etc. Basically, being quiet and docile--> damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I also think that the idea of bathroom escorts is a dangerous one, rife for abuse. What if the man (or woman) taking the children and teens to the bathroom is some kind of pervert and uses the time alone to abuse them? What protection do they have?
At any rate, I'm pretty sure that forcing a student to stand for 20-30 minutes waiting for a bathroom escort, denying them access to a bathroom, or making them sit or stand in their own blood stains or have a urinary accident (all mentioned by teachers in the comments as being regular occurences) is corporal punishment. Making a teenage girl announce to the world that she is menstruating is cruel.
I once had a teacher who I liked and respected a lot. Our class was rowdy and troublesome, and there was one girl who was usually gossiping and flirting instead of learning. One day she asked to go to her locker, but wouldn't say why. "Just because!" She kept saying, as her face got redder. It was obvious to everyone why she wanted to go, but she was clearly uncomfortable. I guess he was frustrated that day, because he seemed bent on making her say it. She finally exploded "i need a pad okay!" Looking like she was going to cry. He let her go, but muttered, annoyed, semi-under his breath, sort of rolling his eyes and shaking his head, "I'm a biology teacher!"
I had always hated her and liked him, but that day I hated him and felt terrible for her. And I wanted to stand up for her, for her right to privacy and her right to be embarassed, but I didn't know how. I wish I had said something, like "you're a teacher but she's just a teenager and that wasn't okay". And I want to stand up for all those girls and say the same.
posted by windykites at 7:53 AM on May 2, 2018 [15 favorites]
I will confess to having an intrinsic suspicion of the motives of anyone who chooses a profession where they spend their days surrounded by people who are largely helpless and have few enforceable rights, over whom they can exercise a level of authority that would not be tolerated by people with any choice
That's deeply unfair to teachers as a whole, and only serves to entrench the idea that they're unworthy of our support or defense.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:53 AM on May 2, 2018 [23 favorites]
That's deeply unfair to teachers as a whole, and only serves to entrench the idea that they're unworthy of our support or defense.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:53 AM on May 2, 2018 [23 favorites]
"I don’t know that it’s helpful to teach everyone open minded ways to question authority when people are still allowed to be fired - and frequently are in lower wage workplaces - for questioning authority or showing insufficient deference or wearing one piece of their uniform wrong. "
I wrestle with this every day working at a charter school that targets the same population while being way less dystopian. It's a delicate balance to train people for success in the lives they're leading while also encouraging them to be free thinking curious humans.
posted by lownote at 7:54 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I wrestle with this every day working at a charter school that targets the same population while being way less dystopian. It's a delicate balance to train people for success in the lives they're leading while also encouraging them to be free thinking curious humans.
posted by lownote at 7:54 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
If you think this isn't happening at the "high achieving" charter schools in your state, think again.
The entire point of charter schools, even if some well-intentioned founders don't grasp it, is to undermine public education while turning a profit, and to brutalize the poor. All of the money and the substantive advocacy comes from ghouls like the Kochs, the DeVoses, etc.
They are a weapon aimed at children like the ones described here, because the rich hate them, and see them as a resource to extract still more lucre from. What's happening here? This is, at root, what charter schools are designed, in part, to do.
I will confess to having an intrinsic suspicion of the motives of anyone who chooses a profession where they spend their days surrounded by people who are largely helpless and have few enforceable rights, over whom they can exercise a level of authority that would not be tolerated by people with any choice
My partner is a preschool teacher and I'll tell you: in spite of everything, all the brutalizing aspects of American life, it is still possible to be motivated by love and a genuine interest and concern for other people. Public school teachers are some of the best people that I know.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:59 AM on May 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
The entire point of charter schools, even if some well-intentioned founders don't grasp it, is to undermine public education while turning a profit, and to brutalize the poor. All of the money and the substantive advocacy comes from ghouls like the Kochs, the DeVoses, etc.
They are a weapon aimed at children like the ones described here, because the rich hate them, and see them as a resource to extract still more lucre from. What's happening here? This is, at root, what charter schools are designed, in part, to do.
I will confess to having an intrinsic suspicion of the motives of anyone who chooses a profession where they spend their days surrounded by people who are largely helpless and have few enforceable rights, over whom they can exercise a level of authority that would not be tolerated by people with any choice
My partner is a preschool teacher and I'll tell you: in spite of everything, all the brutalizing aspects of American life, it is still possible to be motivated by love and a genuine interest and concern for other people. Public school teachers are some of the best people that I know.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:59 AM on May 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
I wrestle with this every day working at a charter school that targets the same population while being way less dystopian. It's a delicate balance to train people for success in the lives they're leading while also encouraging them to be free thinking curious humans.
There may be a grim practicality about trying to promote those behaviors in people doing reentry--I really do appreciate the dilemma. But surely high school is too soon to assume that a child will only ever have these hellpit jobs, and to contort their education around it.
This kind of thing always infuriates me because, having gone to truly terrible and ~90% black public schools and to very expensive, successful, and ~85% white private schools, I know exactly what our society thinks is the proper kind of education to produce creative thinkers and effective leaders when it comes to white people. There's a lot of sitting on the rug in a beautiful lounge with a class of ten and talking about your feelings about The Cherry Orchard. There are no mandated silences or bathroom escort requirements. Anyone who says this kind of "education" is necessary to encourage achievement among these children is expressing straight-up racist beliefs--and I feel terrible for the black parents who have been battered into acceptance by their own abusive environments and the cutting off of other options for their kids.
posted by praemunire at 8:06 AM on May 2, 2018 [31 favorites]
There may be a grim practicality about trying to promote those behaviors in people doing reentry--I really do appreciate the dilemma. But surely high school is too soon to assume that a child will only ever have these hellpit jobs, and to contort their education around it.
This kind of thing always infuriates me because, having gone to truly terrible and ~90% black public schools and to very expensive, successful, and ~85% white private schools, I know exactly what our society thinks is the proper kind of education to produce creative thinkers and effective leaders when it comes to white people. There's a lot of sitting on the rug in a beautiful lounge with a class of ten and talking about your feelings about The Cherry Orchard. There are no mandated silences or bathroom escort requirements. Anyone who says this kind of "education" is necessary to encourage achievement among these children is expressing straight-up racist beliefs--and I feel terrible for the black parents who have been battered into acceptance by their own abusive environments and the cutting off of other options for their kids.
posted by praemunire at 8:06 AM on May 2, 2018 [31 favorites]
Yeah, I want to make sure people aren't assuming I'm arguing in favor of charter schools or homeschooling or against public schools, and especially not teachers.
I had some really good teachers. In fact, the 5th grade teacher I had after the one I mentioned above was really good, and I probably kept her up too many nights because she had no idea what to do with me.
I'm definitely an edge case, and not as many kids would have been as self directed and curious as I was when told "Here's your library card. You know what to do." as a home schooling program. This usually ends with the homeschooled kid in question running off to the graphic novel and sci fi section - which I did, and devoured both, and oh, what an R. Crumb or Phillip K. Dick book can do to a middle-schooler left unsupervised - but I also demolished the history section, arts, sciences, the technical/trades books and just about everything else except maybe the romance pulps.
I was mature enough to realize I had an opportunity, and I remember thinking about my experiences very much in terms like the old Twilight Zone episode where the book lover survives the nuclear attack in the bank vault. Except I didn't break my glasses.
But I am definitely arguing against this perverse, sadistic and fairly pervasive facet of punitive authoritarianism in schools. There needs to be better psychological vetting and filtering for teachers and administrators, because there's just way too many deeply unhappy if not outright twisted people involved.
Granted, you can say that about almost any facet of human life, but it seems particularly important to do something about it in education to prevent the kind of cruelty and psychological damage in the FPP.
That bullshit is damage. It doesn't build "character", it's just damage, and it takes work to correct and heal.
And if it somehow prepares students for the so-called real world, it's only because it's part of the fucked up Ouroboros of human cruelty and unhappiness that it's helping create, sustain and propagate.
posted by loquacious at 8:18 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I had some really good teachers. In fact, the 5th grade teacher I had after the one I mentioned above was really good, and I probably kept her up too many nights because she had no idea what to do with me.
I'm definitely an edge case, and not as many kids would have been as self directed and curious as I was when told "Here's your library card. You know what to do." as a home schooling program. This usually ends with the homeschooled kid in question running off to the graphic novel and sci fi section - which I did, and devoured both, and oh, what an R. Crumb or Phillip K. Dick book can do to a middle-schooler left unsupervised - but I also demolished the history section, arts, sciences, the technical/trades books and just about everything else except maybe the romance pulps.
I was mature enough to realize I had an opportunity, and I remember thinking about my experiences very much in terms like the old Twilight Zone episode where the book lover survives the nuclear attack in the bank vault. Except I didn't break my glasses.
But I am definitely arguing against this perverse, sadistic and fairly pervasive facet of punitive authoritarianism in schools. There needs to be better psychological vetting and filtering for teachers and administrators, because there's just way too many deeply unhappy if not outright twisted people involved.
Granted, you can say that about almost any facet of human life, but it seems particularly important to do something about it in education to prevent the kind of cruelty and psychological damage in the FPP.
That bullshit is damage. It doesn't build "character", it's just damage, and it takes work to correct and heal.
And if it somehow prepares students for the so-called real world, it's only because it's part of the fucked up Ouroboros of human cruelty and unhappiness that it's helping create, sustain and propagate.
posted by loquacious at 8:18 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
The entire point of charter schools ... is to undermine public education while turning a profit, and to brutalize the poor.
Everyone involved with Noble is a monster of one category or another. The entire enterprise exists solely to steal money from the state, and to abuse children in a legally-acceptable manner.
WTF?
These kind of comments read almost as parody: You think people like are getting up in the morning and thinking, "Hey, how can I brutalize some children?" Who? The teachers and principals? The founders, the funders? Why would they do that?
Are there charter schools set up to make money? Maybe, but Noble is a nonprofit, and their top national staff make a bit over $200,000. If they wanted to get really rich, they'd start a hedge fund or become medical equipment salespeople or work at a big law firm or something.
There are plenty of valid criticisms and questions: There are many schools that failed children because they could not create an environment conducive to learning. But is strict discipline the best approach? Is there a better way? Even if you want a strict environment, what led to the awful practices described in the article?
But virtually everyone involved is trying to do good, as they see it. That doesn't mean they are right - far from it - but it should be the start of the debate.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:37 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Everyone involved with Noble is a monster of one category or another. The entire enterprise exists solely to steal money from the state, and to abuse children in a legally-acceptable manner.
WTF?
These kind of comments read almost as parody: You think people like are getting up in the morning and thinking, "Hey, how can I brutalize some children?" Who? The teachers and principals? The founders, the funders? Why would they do that?
Are there charter schools set up to make money? Maybe, but Noble is a nonprofit, and their top national staff make a bit over $200,000. If they wanted to get really rich, they'd start a hedge fund or become medical equipment salespeople or work at a big law firm or something.
There are plenty of valid criticisms and questions: There are many schools that failed children because they could not create an environment conducive to learning. But is strict discipline the best approach? Is there a better way? Even if you want a strict environment, what led to the awful practices described in the article?
But virtually everyone involved is trying to do good, as they see it. That doesn't mean they are right - far from it - but it should be the start of the debate.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:37 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think the sentiment of "these people should feel bad and do better!" is part of the problem. They don't feel bad. They aren't making a mistake. They're not going to see the error of their ways; these are the ways they've chosen very carefully. They want these children broken so they can't be healed, and the public school system eradicated, and workhouses reinstituted because how else are we going to generate enough free labor? The occasional public outcry is just cost of doing business, and one person will be sacrificially fired and go work at another outpost of the theocracy, or maybe given a cabinet position.
I do absolutely agree that they are trying to do good "as they see it", it's just that white supremacy and capitalism are the "good" they serve. They need to be stopped, and the charter school system they've co-opted to that end needs to be shuttered until the infestation can be stopped, in part so they can stop using it to destroy the public school system. Charter schools can have another run after we have a robust public school system that can serve the needs of almost all the kids in the country.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:43 AM on May 2, 2018 [25 favorites]
I do absolutely agree that they are trying to do good "as they see it", it's just that white supremacy and capitalism are the "good" they serve. They need to be stopped, and the charter school system they've co-opted to that end needs to be shuttered until the infestation can be stopped, in part so they can stop using it to destroy the public school system. Charter schools can have another run after we have a robust public school system that can serve the needs of almost all the kids in the country.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:43 AM on May 2, 2018 [25 favorites]
These kind of comments read almost as parody: You think people like are getting up in the morning and thinking, "Hey, how can I brutalize some children?" Who? The teachers and principals? The founders, the funders? Why would they do that?
Again, I don't think most, if any, of the educators involved do, and there are plenty of them that struggle against the intentions of people like Betsy DeVos. But that doesn't change the fact that, at root, charter schools are intended as battery acid poured on the public sector and on working people.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:49 AM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
Again, I don't think most, if any, of the educators involved do, and there are plenty of them that struggle against the intentions of people like Betsy DeVos. But that doesn't change the fact that, at root, charter schools are intended as battery acid poured on the public sector and on working people.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:49 AM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
The founders, the funders? Why would they do that?
When historians look back at this period five hundred years from now as American society slowly recovers from the neo-serfdom it collapsed into, that certainly will be a question.
posted by praemunire at 9:10 AM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
When historians look back at this period five hundred years from now as American society slowly recovers from the neo-serfdom it collapsed into, that certainly will be a question.
posted by praemunire at 9:10 AM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
...and, yes, I have a relative who taught in charter schools, though not this flavor. He went to the same awful public schools I did so he knows first-hand how bad it can get. He's smart and worked hard and wanted only the best for his kids, no doubt. There's no question in my mind he would have figured out a way to evade the rule in question, because his goal in life is not to be a petty tyrant. It's amazing how the good intentions of young people can be weaponized.
posted by praemunire at 9:17 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 9:17 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
The entire point of charter schools, even if some well-intentioned founders don't grasp it, is to undermine public education while turning a profit, and to brutalize the poor. All of the money and the substantive advocacy comes from ghouls like the Kochs, the DeVoses, etc.
There are some exceptions, and more so early on, but at this point they prove the rule. Where I've seen them work reasonably well is in very rural areas where there is only one public school in an entire county and the charters act as "neighborhood" schools so that kids don't have to spend two hours a day on the bus.
When charters were first done in the state I was living in at the time, they had to comply with the same standards as public schools and were required to be nonprofit. Only once people got used to that did they make it the free for all we see today.
posted by wierdo at 9:45 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
There are some exceptions, and more so early on, but at this point they prove the rule. Where I've seen them work reasonably well is in very rural areas where there is only one public school in an entire county and the charters act as "neighborhood" schools so that kids don't have to spend two hours a day on the bus.
When charters were first done in the state I was living in at the time, they had to comply with the same standards as public schools and were required to be nonprofit. Only once people got used to that did they make it the free for all we see today.
posted by wierdo at 9:45 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
warriorqueen: These people need to read up on Canadian residential schools and their impact and then reflect on their own issues.
lazuli: Yeah, I do think a lot of this framework of "structure" is racist code for "we need to civilize black and brown people."
I immediately thought of the residential schools. If you ever talk to a survivor, they will tell you similar tales of dehumanizing practices and psychological abuse. This is in addition to the straight up physical punishment and sexual abuse, which I'd be surprised if some of that wasn't happening at these charter schools too.
Residential schools were a deliberate effort to commit cultural genocide--and ended up being regular genocide as well. Sure, not every person who taught or worked in them was a bad person or wanted to harm children. Many had good intentions. But that doesn't matter. The system was deliberately set up to destroy an entire ethnic group , and it caused intergenerational harm--we are still seeing the fallout, even though the majority of schools operated from the early to mid 20th century, the last one closing in 1996.
These schools linked in the post are a systemically supported attempt to oppress black people. They are state sanctioned. It does not matter whether individual teachers are intentionally trying to harm these children, and I say this as an educator. They are complicit in a system they may not fully understand. But that does not mean the system should still remain.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:53 AM on May 2, 2018 [19 favorites]
lazuli: Yeah, I do think a lot of this framework of "structure" is racist code for "we need to civilize black and brown people."
I immediately thought of the residential schools. If you ever talk to a survivor, they will tell you similar tales of dehumanizing practices and psychological abuse. This is in addition to the straight up physical punishment and sexual abuse, which I'd be surprised if some of that wasn't happening at these charter schools too.
Residential schools were a deliberate effort to commit cultural genocide--and ended up being regular genocide as well. Sure, not every person who taught or worked in them was a bad person or wanted to harm children. Many had good intentions. But that doesn't matter. The system was deliberately set up to destroy an entire ethnic group , and it caused intergenerational harm--we are still seeing the fallout, even though the majority of schools operated from the early to mid 20th century, the last one closing in 1996.
These schools linked in the post are a systemically supported attempt to oppress black people. They are state sanctioned. It does not matter whether individual teachers are intentionally trying to harm these children, and I say this as an educator. They are complicit in a system they may not fully understand. But that does not mean the system should still remain.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 9:53 AM on May 2, 2018 [19 favorites]
Requiring them to match the public school standards and be nonprofits would go a long way toward fixing them. Allowing them to be legally challenged for either failing to provide an education at least equal to public standards, or for failing to recognize students' civil rights, would also help.
Students should be able to sue over a hostile school just like an employee can sue over a hostile workplace - they should be able to sue over discriminatory policies that look neutral if you don't pay attention to context or results, over treatment that causes physical or mental harm, over violation of their free speech rights - there should be no limits on their speech, including dress code, that can't show that (1) it serves an acknowledged state purpose (education is such a purpose) and (2) it is the least restrictive way to serve that purpose (would never hold up in court; schools, unlike businesses, don't have the excuse of "corporate branding" to require uniforms).
Of course, nobody in power wants to open the sack o' tentacles of students' civil rights.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:57 AM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
Students should be able to sue over a hostile school just like an employee can sue over a hostile workplace - they should be able to sue over discriminatory policies that look neutral if you don't pay attention to context or results, over treatment that causes physical or mental harm, over violation of their free speech rights - there should be no limits on their speech, including dress code, that can't show that (1) it serves an acknowledged state purpose (education is such a purpose) and (2) it is the least restrictive way to serve that purpose (would never hold up in court; schools, unlike businesses, don't have the excuse of "corporate branding" to require uniforms).
Of course, nobody in power wants to open the sack o' tentacles of students' civil rights.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:57 AM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
But surely high school is too soon to assume that a child will only ever have these hellpit jobs, and to contort their education around it.
So I’ve been doing a lot of labor organizing lately, trying to put skills to use in a more productive fashion than despair, and the thing I’m realizing is that the vast majority of jobs in this country /are/ hellpit jobs. Retail work, food prep, cashiers, etc. They spend much of their day in intensely monitored subservient conditions and are frequently fired for activity that no one would think twice about at a middle class or white collar job. They often must also request permission for bathroom breaks. From the Corey Robin link up thread,
So unfortunately, in this country, it is more likely than not that the children being educated in any particular school, especially in low-income districts, are bound for that kind of soul-destroying work - not because they don’t have the aptitude for more, but because the jobs that treat workers with any kind of human dignity are few and far between.
So what do you do? Do you set them up for “success” in the world they are most likely to enter by teaching them early to sublimate their dreams and aspirations and talents - but a ‘success’ that teaches them to be content with their lot so they are less likely to organize for better? Or do you encourage them to believe they can be and do anything, and destine them for heartbreak and employment struggles as they are unable to attain a world that will treat them as their dignity deserves, but still give them the tools to fight? I know which one I believe in, but I’m not sure it’s a clear cut answer.
posted by corb at 10:03 AM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
So I’ve been doing a lot of labor organizing lately, trying to put skills to use in a more productive fashion than despair, and the thing I’m realizing is that the vast majority of jobs in this country /are/ hellpit jobs. Retail work, food prep, cashiers, etc. They spend much of their day in intensely monitored subservient conditions and are frequently fired for activity that no one would think twice about at a middle class or white collar job. They often must also request permission for bathroom breaks. From the Corey Robin link up thread,
Just this past month, a Jim Beam bourbon distillery in Clermont, Ky., was forced to drop its strict bathroom-break policies after the plant’s union focused negative international attention – from ABC News to Australia – on Jim Beam and its parent company, Fortune Brands, Inc. According to union officials, managers kept computer spreadsheets monitoring employee use of the bathroom, and 45 employees were disciplined for heeding nature’s call outside company-approved breaks. Female workers were even told to report the beginning of their menstrual cycles to the human resources department, said one union leader.And these jobs aren’t really stepping stones any more. Prospective bosses look at resumes to determine eligibility for further employment- if they are willing to take you despite your previous low-income work, you’re still going to be starting at the bottom and frequently will not have a chance to rise. We’ve seen Big Data used more ruthlessly to track workers than those assembling old blacklists could ever have dreamed of.
So unfortunately, in this country, it is more likely than not that the children being educated in any particular school, especially in low-income districts, are bound for that kind of soul-destroying work - not because they don’t have the aptitude for more, but because the jobs that treat workers with any kind of human dignity are few and far between.
So what do you do? Do you set them up for “success” in the world they are most likely to enter by teaching them early to sublimate their dreams and aspirations and talents - but a ‘success’ that teaches them to be content with their lot so they are less likely to organize for better? Or do you encourage them to believe they can be and do anything, and destine them for heartbreak and employment struggles as they are unable to attain a world that will treat them as their dignity deserves, but still give them the tools to fight? I know which one I believe in, but I’m not sure it’s a clear cut answer.
posted by corb at 10:03 AM on May 2, 2018 [13 favorites]
One thing that is interesting about the Nobel schools is that they explicitly have a goal of college for every student. They are *not* trying to train them for hellpit jobs. But they use the rhetorical of college preparedness, often couched in the language of “professional behavior” to justify a lot of their most draconian discipline tactics. It absolutely is racist and classist because it’s founded on the assumption that students of color from low income backgrounds “need” this kind of discipline. This is unstated but implicit. It’s different from the old model of preparing low income students for trade careers in a way that’s analogous to the difference between neoliberalism and old-school liberalism.
posted by mai at 10:24 AM on May 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by mai at 10:24 AM on May 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
So what do you do? Do you set them up for “success” in the world they are most likely to enter by teaching them early to sublimate their dreams and aspirations and talents - but a ‘success’ that teaches them to be content with their lot so they are less likely to organize for better?
You can prepare students for the fact that almost everyone winds up in low-to-mid income jobs without crushing their spirits and insisting that "their betters" get the good jobs. These students are not being taught to be content; they're being taught that any hint of creativity or interests outside of what's handed to them - including an interest in the social connections that are required for human health - are punished.
There is no reason that no-judgment-required, endless-minor-task, constant-service jobs need to be hellpit jobs. No reason that employees on an assembly line, or working at a sales counter, can't be treated with dignity and allowed to enjoy life. No reason the schools can't focus on, "let's be real - most of you are going to wind up in jobs that don't ever earn more than half-again minimum wage. So let's focus on the skills you need to thrive with that kind of job, and the education you need to be an active participant in your community. And let's make sure that, if you have the talents and drive to push for something other than that, you have the skills you'll need to do that, too."
Instead, they're pushing, "the only road to success is strict regimentation in all aspects of your life. Obey and you'll be allowed to survive; challenge the rules and you will always fail. And you get no say in what the rules are."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:26 AM on May 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
You can prepare students for the fact that almost everyone winds up in low-to-mid income jobs without crushing their spirits and insisting that "their betters" get the good jobs. These students are not being taught to be content; they're being taught that any hint of creativity or interests outside of what's handed to them - including an interest in the social connections that are required for human health - are punished.
There is no reason that no-judgment-required, endless-minor-task, constant-service jobs need to be hellpit jobs. No reason that employees on an assembly line, or working at a sales counter, can't be treated with dignity and allowed to enjoy life. No reason the schools can't focus on, "let's be real - most of you are going to wind up in jobs that don't ever earn more than half-again minimum wage. So let's focus on the skills you need to thrive with that kind of job, and the education you need to be an active participant in your community. And let's make sure that, if you have the talents and drive to push for something other than that, you have the skills you'll need to do that, too."
Instead, they're pushing, "the only road to success is strict regimentation in all aspects of your life. Obey and you'll be allowed to survive; challenge the rules and you will always fail. And you get no say in what the rules are."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:26 AM on May 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
Also, I challenge everyone who is outraged about this to get involved with your local school in some way, especially if you live in Chicago. Local school council, volunteering, etc. These abuses happen in part because we keep students and schools so isolated from the rest of the world and from adult society.
posted by mai at 10:28 AM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by mai at 10:28 AM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
These kind of comments read almost as parody: You think people like are getting up in the morning and thinking, "Hey, how can I brutalize some children?" Who? The teachers and principals? The founders, the funders? Why would they do that?
Most racists don't get up in the morning and think, "I'm gonna do some racism today." They'll even get offended and strenuously object if you point out their racism. Focusing on intent instead of effect absolves people like this--"well meaning" people who are unconsciously propping up white supremacy--and guarantees that we'll never get anywhere toward resolving the systemic racism in the U.S. And charter schools are absolutely a huge part of that racism. (Also, people like Betsy Devos and the Kochs 100% think they're trying to do good. They're also racist theocrats who should not be "part of the debate" just because they mean well.)
posted by Mavri at 10:32 AM on May 2, 2018 [27 favorites]
Most racists don't get up in the morning and think, "I'm gonna do some racism today." They'll even get offended and strenuously object if you point out their racism. Focusing on intent instead of effect absolves people like this--"well meaning" people who are unconsciously propping up white supremacy--and guarantees that we'll never get anywhere toward resolving the systemic racism in the U.S. And charter schools are absolutely a huge part of that racism. (Also, people like Betsy Devos and the Kochs 100% think they're trying to do good. They're also racist theocrats who should not be "part of the debate" just because they mean well.)
posted by Mavri at 10:32 AM on May 2, 2018 [27 favorites]
Also, people like Betsy Devos and the Kochs 100% think they're trying to do good.
They honestly don't - they're sociopaths that are willing to strangle the dreams of kids for an infinitesimally thin shellacking of their already obscene wealth.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:53 AM on May 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
They honestly don't - they're sociopaths that are willing to strangle the dreams of kids for an infinitesimally thin shellacking of their already obscene wealth.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:53 AM on May 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
they're sociopaths that are willing to strangle the dreams of kids for an infinitesimally thin shellacking of their already obscene wealth.
Yes, but it's not just about the monty. At the same time they want to turn the US into a Christian state, under "biblical" law. (Though I assume they don't mean all 613 mitzvot. They usually pick and choose a bit.)
posted by curiousgene at 11:30 AM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yes, but it's not just about the monty. At the same time they want to turn the US into a Christian state, under "biblical" law. (Though I assume they don't mean all 613 mitzvot. They usually pick and choose a bit.)
posted by curiousgene at 11:30 AM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Two words: Selection bias.
It's easy to produce "great results" when you can kick out any student that gives you trouble.
I went to a magnet high school for the arts: you have to audition to get in and maintain your grades. Of course the school was full of nice, well-adjusted kids who overwhelmingly passed the standardized tests compared with the rest of the district. Kids who generally didn't weren't there in the first place, or got the boot soon enough. To paraphrase Catcher in the Rye: "They don't do any damn more molding at Pencey than they do at any other school. And I didn't know anybody there that was splendid and clear-thinking and all. Maybe two guys. If that many. And they probably came to Pencey that way."
That's what's happening at Noble, but they can point to their juked stats and can claim their method works.
> They have 98% minority students, with a 40% turnover rate.
As far as I'm concerned, Noble schools have a 40% failure rate for their students. Or rather, failing their students. But that conveniently doesn't get counted in their published stats.
And I'm fairly certain this was the case with Jaime Escalante (of "Stand and Deliver" fame) of Garfield High School in east LA: He wasn't a "great teacher" so much as he was able to drive out anybody who didn't keep up with his high standards. Sure, I don't have hard evidence for this, but I'd sooner believe that was the reason the other teachers didn't get along with him, rather than they were "jealous" of him. And why his results weren't replicated after he left.
Any teacher will tell you that in their class there's almost certainly one or two troublesome kids who end up taking 50% or more of their energy during the class, while the other 30 well-behaved kids share the remainder. No, it isn't fair for those students and removing the undisciplined students does make the class flow much better for everyone else. But putting troublesome students into separate classes... that's tracking, and we all know the problems that has.
This. Is. A. Hard. Problem. And it doesn't help to have "education professionals" (i.e. administrators who don't actually teach actual students) coming up with authoritarian nightmares as a solution while they suck away tax dollars from public schools.
(Also, while I'm on my soap box: The whole Asian "tiger mom" trope is just a glorification of child abuse. Especially for the daughters.)
posted by AlSweigart at 11:57 AM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's easy to produce "great results" when you can kick out any student that gives you trouble.
I went to a magnet high school for the arts: you have to audition to get in and maintain your grades. Of course the school was full of nice, well-adjusted kids who overwhelmingly passed the standardized tests compared with the rest of the district. Kids who generally didn't weren't there in the first place, or got the boot soon enough. To paraphrase Catcher in the Rye: "They don't do any damn more molding at Pencey than they do at any other school. And I didn't know anybody there that was splendid and clear-thinking and all. Maybe two guys. If that many. And they probably came to Pencey that way."
That's what's happening at Noble, but they can point to their juked stats and can claim their method works.
> They have 98% minority students, with a 40% turnover rate.
As far as I'm concerned, Noble schools have a 40% failure rate for their students. Or rather, failing their students. But that conveniently doesn't get counted in their published stats.
And I'm fairly certain this was the case with Jaime Escalante (of "Stand and Deliver" fame) of Garfield High School in east LA: He wasn't a "great teacher" so much as he was able to drive out anybody who didn't keep up with his high standards. Sure, I don't have hard evidence for this, but I'd sooner believe that was the reason the other teachers didn't get along with him, rather than they were "jealous" of him. And why his results weren't replicated after he left.
Any teacher will tell you that in their class there's almost certainly one or two troublesome kids who end up taking 50% or more of their energy during the class, while the other 30 well-behaved kids share the remainder. No, it isn't fair for those students and removing the undisciplined students does make the class flow much better for everyone else. But putting troublesome students into separate classes... that's tracking, and we all know the problems that has.
This. Is. A. Hard. Problem. And it doesn't help to have "education professionals" (i.e. administrators who don't actually teach actual students) coming up with authoritarian nightmares as a solution while they suck away tax dollars from public schools.
(Also, while I'm on my soap box: The whole Asian "tiger mom" trope is just a glorification of child abuse. Especially for the daughters.)
posted by AlSweigart at 11:57 AM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Another aspect that is touched on in the article but not really talked about in connection with charter schools is Teach for America. There is a general perception among TFA graduates and also traditionally-trained teachers that TFA does not adequately train students for the skills required for classroom management. A charter school with very strict rules that rewards strict teachers is understandably attractive for brand-new teachers who rightly need guidance. I note that TFA also appears to use the phrase "classroom culture" in relation to classroom management.
posted by muddgirl at 12:10 PM on May 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 12:10 PM on May 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
The second NPR article links to a google doc of an email that the president of Noble sent out in response to their previous article. Here's the paragraph that caught my eye:
posted by mhum at 3:08 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Even more, I’m upset at the characterization of how the people who do this great work treat our black boys in particular, because Noble is heading in the entirely opposite direction, in both daily practice and annual results, than what this article suggests. The facts don’t lie. With several years of thoughtful improvements and by incorporating an annual parent review panel of the student code of conduct, every year we’re reducing suspensions and expulsions at historic rates for all demographics – including black boys, who are on track this year to have an expulsion rate of less than half of a percent - while still maintaining some of the highest retention and graduation rates across the city. We know that discipline practices for African American young men is a national discussion, and we’re doing our part to improve. What’s more, we’re doing this while continuing to send African American and Latino males to college at rates nearly double those of district schools. We should all take immense pride in that.Sure, she points out retention, graduation, and college admission rates. But she leads with suspensions & expulsions. Something about that just seems... off to me.
posted by mhum at 3:08 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
She also doesn't specifically refute, or even really deny, a single thing the article reported. She just broadly says "a number of things" were "exaggerated or plainly false." Uh huh.
posted by holborne at 3:19 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by holborne at 3:19 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don’t know how many people I tried to educate about charter schools and how bad they are. They seem like the worst hybrid of private religious schools and the worst of public schools.
What gets me is the dress - code thing and the making things hard for girls who are nenstruating. I personally had a horrific time with that bodily function. As did a number of friends. It is not helpful in the damn least to force girls to go through their day with stained clothing. It is not sanitary and it smells bad. Combine adjusting to a new, and sometimes very unpredictable body function with draconian bathroom rules, and draconian, stupid dress codes and you have a recipe for some real anguish. The very fact girls and women menstruate is unfair. Hardly any animals go through a similar process. Shaming girls at this time encourages body dysphoria and self - hatred. It’s just unhealthy as Hell. It’s like chaupadi and other extreme menstrual isolation customs.
I wish I could send all those girls the Thinx panties and some soap so they’d never have to undergo this.
I remember being very excited when Jesse Jackson ran for president and then getting totally disgusted and disappointed when he came out for charter schools. I remember thinking, ‘He totally doesn’t get it!’ I had friends who ate this charter school nonsense up and feeling disappointed in them too.
Public school has it’s faults and problems but it’s possible to do something about it. Even as a student you can. I and roughly 40 girls helped get rid of my school’s dress code in 1969. We had petitions, we had a school wide ‘pants strike’ and it worked. I was fortunate in having sensible, supportive parents.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:17 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
What gets me is the dress - code thing and the making things hard for girls who are nenstruating. I personally had a horrific time with that bodily function. As did a number of friends. It is not helpful in the damn least to force girls to go through their day with stained clothing. It is not sanitary and it smells bad. Combine adjusting to a new, and sometimes very unpredictable body function with draconian bathroom rules, and draconian, stupid dress codes and you have a recipe for some real anguish. The very fact girls and women menstruate is unfair. Hardly any animals go through a similar process. Shaming girls at this time encourages body dysphoria and self - hatred. It’s just unhealthy as Hell. It’s like chaupadi and other extreme menstrual isolation customs.
I wish I could send all those girls the Thinx panties and some soap so they’d never have to undergo this.
I remember being very excited when Jesse Jackson ran for president and then getting totally disgusted and disappointed when he came out for charter schools. I remember thinking, ‘He totally doesn’t get it!’ I had friends who ate this charter school nonsense up and feeling disappointed in them too.
Public school has it’s faults and problems but it’s possible to do something about it. Even as a student you can. I and roughly 40 girls helped get rid of my school’s dress code in 1969. We had petitions, we had a school wide ‘pants strike’ and it worked. I was fortunate in having sensible, supportive parents.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:17 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
One should never trust a charter school's (or private school) published numbers. Even public school systems game their graduation rates, despite having much less room to do so. When you can throw the academically challenged kids who manage to slip in out on their ear and refuse to accept those who don't test well, it's easy to have high scores and good graduation rates.
Similarly, their apparently lower cost per pupil is bullshit since they don't have to accommodate kids who need more than minimal assistance to attend, while public schools have to spend whatever it takes, no matter how much it costs. A few of the kids in my high school had full time minders and/or 5 figures worth of equipment to allow them to participate fully. I say that with some pride having seen how other districts do everything they can to avoid doing what is necessary to integrate those with physical and/or learning disabilities into regular classes and otherwise set them up for success.
posted by wierdo at 12:29 AM on May 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
Similarly, their apparently lower cost per pupil is bullshit since they don't have to accommodate kids who need more than minimal assistance to attend, while public schools have to spend whatever it takes, no matter how much it costs. A few of the kids in my high school had full time minders and/or 5 figures worth of equipment to allow them to participate fully. I say that with some pride having seen how other districts do everything they can to avoid doing what is necessary to integrate those with physical and/or learning disabilities into regular classes and otherwise set them up for success.
posted by wierdo at 12:29 AM on May 3, 2018 [9 favorites]
the thing I’m realizing is that the vast majority of jobs in this country /are/ hellpit jobs.
When the management style that started pushing the US down the road to that hellpit first made its way to this country, we had a general strike over it.
posted by flabdablet at 7:15 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
When the management style that started pushing the US down the road to that hellpit first made its way to this country, we had a general strike over it.
posted by flabdablet at 7:15 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
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