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August 16, 2018 6:55 AM Subscribe
Ruby Rose (Orange is the New Black, John Wick: Chapter 2, The Meg) has been cast as Batwoman in an upcoming crossover event in the CW's "Arrowverse."
Rose, an out lesbian who identifies as genderfluid, will play the modern version of the character, who took up crimefighting after being expelled from West Point during the Don't Ask, Don't Tell era. The character is also being developed for a CW series of her own. [Ruby Rose previously, Batwoman previously]
Rose, an out lesbian who identifies as genderfluid, will play the modern version of the character, who took up crimefighting after being expelled from West Point during the Don't Ask, Don't Tell era. The character is also being developed for a CW series of her own. [Ruby Rose previously, Batwoman previously]
It seems inevitable that this thread is going to touch on how she left Twitter over this
It's absolutely bizarre to me that the twitter abuse circled around how-gay-if-even-gay-the-precise-right-amount-of-gay she is when there is a perfectly good critique of casting Ruby Rose in anything which is that Ruby Rose is not a very good actor.
posted by phunniemee at 7:03 AM on August 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
It's absolutely bizarre to me that the twitter abuse circled around how-gay-if-even-gay-the-precise-right-amount-of-gay she is when there is a perfectly good critique of casting Ruby Rose in anything which is that Ruby Rose is not a very good actor.
posted by phunniemee at 7:03 AM on August 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
The twitter yelling I saw combined the two. She's not a good actor, and there are good lesbian actors out there, so why not give one of them a chance.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:06 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:06 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Lest we dwell too much on the internet outrage, just pointing out a previous post was deleted for having that focus.
posted by eustacescrubb at 7:09 AM on August 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by eustacescrubb at 7:09 AM on August 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
a previous post was deleted for having that focus
OK, whew. I thought I was going insane because I marked this as a double and then couldn't find the thread. Sorry, mods.
On the other hand, you deleted that thread, mods? Huh.
posted by The Bellman at 7:18 AM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
OK, whew. I thought I was going insane because I marked this as a double and then couldn't find the thread. Sorry, mods.
On the other hand, you deleted that thread, mods? Huh.
posted by The Bellman at 7:18 AM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Mod note: folks -- if this is just a thread about angry twitter dramaz, it's not a great thread for MeFi. If it's a larger thread about Batwoman, representation and Ruby Rose, it's probably okay. Make your choices.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:19 AM on August 16, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:19 AM on August 16, 2018 [24 favorites]
I'm confused about them bringing Batwoman into the Arrowverse. Does that mean Batman and the whole Bat* menagerie is on its way? Because I thought the whole point of Arrow was that it was not-Batman, a hero whose story and M.O. are exactly lke Batman and yet somehow he is a different character.
posted by Nelson at 7:25 AM on August 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 7:25 AM on August 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Batman exists in the Arrowverse. Oliver Queen namedropped Bruce Wayne last season and Kara has mentioned a weird, intense vigilante that works with her cousin sometimes. We just haven’t seen him yet. I don’t expect we will anytime soon beyond these kinds of teases.
posted by Servo5678 at 7:30 AM on August 16, 2018
posted by Servo5678 at 7:30 AM on August 16, 2018
I'm confused about them bringing Batwoman into the Arrowverse. Does that mean Batman and the whole Bat* menagerie is on its way? Because I thought the whole point of Arrow was that it was not-Batman, a hero whose story and M.O. are exactly lke Batman and yet somehow he is a different character.
Clark Kent/Superman exists in the Arrowverse, but for the most part only mentioned in passing, so I wouldn't be surprised if Gotham/Batman exists, but again is an afterthought.
Legends of Tomorrow seems to be doing a stellar job in representing the spectrum of people in the real world, and the crossover events have exceeded expectations every time, so I'm hopeful.
And then there's the whole "Arrow executive producer Andrew Kreisberg was suspended amid sexual harassment allegations." thing, which may have an effect on the tone, or not.
posted by mikelieman at 7:31 AM on August 16, 2018
Clark Kent/Superman exists in the Arrowverse, but for the most part only mentioned in passing, so I wouldn't be surprised if Gotham/Batman exists, but again is an afterthought.
Legends of Tomorrow seems to be doing a stellar job in representing the spectrum of people in the real world, and the crossover events have exceeded expectations every time, so I'm hopeful.
And then there's the whole "Arrow executive producer Andrew Kreisberg was suspended amid sexual harassment allegations." thing, which may have an effect on the tone, or not.
posted by mikelieman at 7:31 AM on August 16, 2018
Oh, and Gotham has exceeded expectations too, though not Arrowverse per-se.
posted by mikelieman at 7:32 AM on August 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 7:32 AM on August 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Stephen Amell was not a good actor when Arrow started but has improved dramatically (lol). I think toxic fandom just takes any opportunity and any excuse to be toxic.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 7:40 AM on August 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by sevenyearlurk at 7:40 AM on August 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
Never heard or seen this person before but she looks perfect visually for Catwoman, she already looks like a cat person to some extent.
posted by GoblinHoney at 7:42 AM on August 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 7:42 AM on August 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
She's playing Batwoman not Catwoman. She could do with smaller eyes and a more upturned nose to properly resemble a bat (depending on species obviously). 🦇
posted by Secret Sparrow at 7:47 AM on August 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Secret Sparrow at 7:47 AM on August 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Clark Kent/Superman exists in the Arrowverse
Well, more like Arrowverse-adjacent. Clark and Kara Danvers/Supergirl are from the timeline next door. Barry Allen/The Flash exists in the Arrowverse, and universe-jumping is a thing he does.
A Batwoman without contemporary Batman is an interesting idea. If I were doing it, I might reference an earlier Bat-Man from the 30's (or the 60's!), with Batwoman picking up the cowl in the present day.
posted by SPrintF at 7:54 AM on August 16, 2018 [16 favorites]
Well, more like Arrowverse-adjacent. Clark and Kara Danvers/Supergirl are from the timeline next door. Barry Allen/The Flash exists in the Arrowverse, and universe-jumping is a thing he does.
A Batwoman without contemporary Batman is an interesting idea. If I were doing it, I might reference an earlier Bat-Man from the 30's (or the 60's!), with Batwoman picking up the cowl in the present day.
posted by SPrintF at 7:54 AM on August 16, 2018 [16 favorites]
Well I for one am positively interested in this casting. But then again, I'm fully aware that I'm a cis-het woman and on top of that I have no opinion on her acting skills so that's colouring my opinion.
My excitement is mainly based on still liking comic book based movies despite their prevalence and also being excited about having one with a female protagonist, which is not prevalent enough. I hope Wonder Woman set a high enough bar for this one to strive for, with a completely different set of context and nuance for the character (and audience) to experience.
posted by like_neon at 8:12 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
My excitement is mainly based on still liking comic book based movies despite their prevalence and also being excited about having one with a female protagonist, which is not prevalent enough. I hope Wonder Woman set a high enough bar for this one to strive for, with a completely different set of context and nuance for the character (and audience) to experience.
posted by like_neon at 8:12 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm really not that fussed about her acting skills. It's a comic book action movie. I didn't thinK Gal Gadot was that great as an actress, but she kicked ass and sold the character to me. From the little exposure I've had of Ruby, I think she's capable of that much.
posted by like_neon at 8:15 AM on August 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by like_neon at 8:15 AM on August 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Stephen Amell was not a good actor when Arrow started but has improved dramatically (lol). I think toxic fandom just takes any opportunity and any excuse to be toxic.
Yeah, I thought that Caity Lotz' acting was just horrible when she started on Arrow. Now she's the lynchpin of the best show in the Arrowverse. The producers involved in these shows seem to know what they're doing when they choose an actor.
posted by Quonab at 8:18 AM on August 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
Yeah, I thought that Caity Lotz' acting was just horrible when she started on Arrow. Now she's the lynchpin of the best show in the Arrowverse. The producers involved in these shows seem to know what they're doing when they choose an actor.
posted by Quonab at 8:18 AM on August 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
I've seen the bad acting critique a lot on other sites, am I the only one who thinks her acting is ok?
My take is, I've seen her in a few things, and she's not the greatest actress that ever acted. She's not a bad actress though, I'd say. She does an ok job and she seems enthusiastic enough with action scenes, such as in John Wick. I mean, if she was in Shakespeare I'd say meh, but for this kind of part I think she's fine.
posted by unreason at 8:21 AM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
My take is, I've seen her in a few things, and she's not the greatest actress that ever acted. She's not a bad actress though, I'd say. She does an ok job and she seems enthusiastic enough with action scenes, such as in John Wick. I mean, if she was in Shakespeare I'd say meh, but for this kind of part I think she's fine.
posted by unreason at 8:21 AM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Scanned this as “Ruby Rhod cast as Batwoman” and had a moment of intense but delightful confusion.
I think they’ll do fine on the show.
posted by q*ben at 8:35 AM on August 16, 2018 [22 favorites]
I think they’ll do fine on the show.
posted by q*ben at 8:35 AM on August 16, 2018 [22 favorites]
She does an ok job and she seems enthusiastic enough with action scenes, such as in John Wick.
One could make the same observation about Keanu Reeves but no one gripes this much when he gets roles. Maybe he could play Batman in the Arrowverse.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:44 AM on August 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
One could make the same observation about Keanu Reeves but no one gripes this much when he gets roles. Maybe he could play Batman in the Arrowverse.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:44 AM on August 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
A Batwoman without contemporary Batman is an interesting idea. If I were doing it, I might reference an earlier Bat-Man from the 30's (or the 60's!), with Batwoman picking up the cowl in the present day.
Since this is taking place in the Arrowverse, which has already cannibalized a TON of Batman lore to flesh out Green Arrow's backstory, I wouldn't mind seeing them just skip over the whole idea of Batman and make Batwoman the first of her name. Or maybe stick to Denny O'Neil's concept, and have Batman be nothing more than an amusing post-WWII urban legend like Bigfoot or whatever, that Kate Kane capitalizes on when creating her heroine persona.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:46 AM on August 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Since this is taking place in the Arrowverse, which has already cannibalized a TON of Batman lore to flesh out Green Arrow's backstory, I wouldn't mind seeing them just skip over the whole idea of Batman and make Batwoman the first of her name. Or maybe stick to Denny O'Neil's concept, and have Batman be nothing more than an amusing post-WWII urban legend like Bigfoot or whatever, that Kate Kane capitalizes on when creating her heroine persona.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:46 AM on August 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Rose doesn't seem (so far) to have a lot of range, but she's got a great screen presence and a ton of charisma. I think she'd be good for this kind of role.
posted by brundlefly at 8:46 AM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 8:46 AM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
As far as I can tell, queer women hate her because straight women love her, in the “I’d go gay for” sense, which admittedly is annoying as fuck, but also is not Ruby Rose’s fault. People are apparently just terrible.
Also the “bad actor” critique cracks me up. Yo she’s playing batwoman, not...well I was going to try to pick the lady equivalent of Hamlet, but lolsob there isn’t one because there aren’t iconic roles for women. So idk, Ophelia.
Point is she’s going to literally be wearing a mask for a significant amount of screen time. Oscar bait this ain’t.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:57 AM on August 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
Also the “bad actor” critique cracks me up. Yo she’s playing batwoman, not...well I was going to try to pick the lady equivalent of Hamlet, but lolsob there isn’t one because there aren’t iconic roles for women. So idk, Ophelia.
Point is she’s going to literally be wearing a mask for a significant amount of screen time. Oscar bait this ain’t.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:57 AM on August 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
i liked the character she played in JW2 and i guess that is pretty much my entire opinion of her, and tbh the primary thing i liked was how she enabled the film overall to make further excellent use of subtitles/captioning.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:00 AM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:00 AM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
"She's just not a good enough actor" declares public who repeatedly paid to see Josh Hartnett, Sam Worthington, Arnold Schwarzenegger...
posted by UltraMorgnus at 9:25 AM on August 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
posted by UltraMorgnus at 9:25 AM on August 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
well I was going to try to pick the lady equivalent of Hamlet, but lolsob there isn’t one because there aren’t iconic roles for women. So idk, Ophelia.
Lady Macbeth, I mean, really. She drives that play, and her tragedy is at least as great as her husbsnd’s....
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:28 AM on August 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
Lady Macbeth, I mean, really. She drives that play, and her tragedy is at least as great as her husbsnd’s....
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:28 AM on August 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
declares public who repeatedly paid to see Josh Hartnett, Sam Worthington, Arnold Schwarzenegger...
Yeah, Schwarzenegger was a name that came to mind when brundlefly mentioned minimal range coupled with oodles of presence and charisma. I am indifferent to the Arrowverse stuff, but we surely don’t need Meryl Streep levels of chops here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:31 AM on August 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah, Schwarzenegger was a name that came to mind when brundlefly mentioned minimal range coupled with oodles of presence and charisma. I am indifferent to the Arrowverse stuff, but we surely don’t need Meryl Streep levels of chops here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:31 AM on August 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
I am in no position to judge whether she's a good actor or not, unless she flubs her lines or reads them in a horrible monotone or something, which I can't see happening. From the diversity perspective, we need more non-binary visibility in general, so I'm cautiously for it, though I can understand the dislike by non-cishet folks.
When it's all said and done, I haven't seen this show and am not likely to, so I guess I don't have a horse in it either way. I just wish the damn Internet outrage machine would stop once in a while.
posted by Alensin at 9:33 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
When it's all said and done, I haven't seen this show and am not likely to, so I guess I don't have a horse in it either way. I just wish the damn Internet outrage machine would stop once in a while.
posted by Alensin at 9:33 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
You know who I'd like to see Ruby Rose play? Desire, of the Endless, if a Sandman live action thing ever gets off the ground. Which I hope never happens because dear god can you imagine how hard that would be to bring to a screen? But anyway, she definitely has the look needed. And it's not like her acting skills can't improve.
posted by palomar at 9:33 AM on August 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by palomar at 9:33 AM on August 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
To be clear, I meant non-Mefi Internet outrage machine. Y'all are wonderful, and I'm so glad to be here.
posted by Alensin at 9:34 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Alensin at 9:34 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also the “bad actor” critique cracks me up
Clearly the "bad actor" complaints come from people who have never watched Arrow, where bad acting is part of the fun.
posted by eustacescrubb at 9:55 AM on August 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Clearly the "bad actor" complaints come from people who have never watched Arrow, where bad acting is part of the fun.
posted by eustacescrubb at 9:55 AM on August 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
I find the shifts in expectations for actors and parts to be really fascinating. It used to be that an actor could be expected to play roles very unlike their real life identities, that was at the heart of the profession. Obviously oppressive systemic racism led that to be white actors taking on pretty much every role either by having the roles changed to fit them or when the role was important enough by adopting black/yellow/red face, leaving minority actors largely unrepresented in most works save for minor parts that a the main actors weren't deemed important enough for a white person to take on.
Over time that rightly was called out for being completely unacceptable, so things changed a bit, mostly by continuing to minimize minority roles in works. When that too was shown as racism by a different path, more minority actors slowly began to get work and notice in major productions. White actors though could continue to play pretty much any role no matter how closely they fit the heritage proscribed.
Now things are changing even more radically where the demand is increasingly for the role to match the real identity of the actors. Not just generally as with white actors taking on any white role, but specifically where not only national identity or heritage matters, but sexual identity, skin coloration and other important physical/social markers as more and more groups are speaking up about seeing themselves represented as they are. Not in vaguely similar terms but as true representatives of their group. At the same time there is also an increasing range of works, often historical, that are performing works that either are color, gender, and sexuality "blind" or purposefully switched.
All of it is making for some really interesting and hard to fully grasp new dynamics for actors as the options for roles become both narrower in some ways and broader in others. How this will effect works being performed and the range of performers who will be able to find work is hard to say as it does carry both added limitations as well as added freedoms. Whatever the case, it is turning into a really different world than had long been the standard for the profession and future productions.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:59 AM on August 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Over time that rightly was called out for being completely unacceptable, so things changed a bit, mostly by continuing to minimize minority roles in works. When that too was shown as racism by a different path, more minority actors slowly began to get work and notice in major productions. White actors though could continue to play pretty much any role no matter how closely they fit the heritage proscribed.
Now things are changing even more radically where the demand is increasingly for the role to match the real identity of the actors. Not just generally as with white actors taking on any white role, but specifically where not only national identity or heritage matters, but sexual identity, skin coloration and other important physical/social markers as more and more groups are speaking up about seeing themselves represented as they are. Not in vaguely similar terms but as true representatives of their group. At the same time there is also an increasing range of works, often historical, that are performing works that either are color, gender, and sexuality "blind" or purposefully switched.
All of it is making for some really interesting and hard to fully grasp new dynamics for actors as the options for roles become both narrower in some ways and broader in others. How this will effect works being performed and the range of performers who will be able to find work is hard to say as it does carry both added limitations as well as added freedoms. Whatever the case, it is turning into a really different world than had long been the standard for the profession and future productions.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:59 AM on August 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Since this is taking place in the Arrowverse, which has already cannibalized a TON of Batman lore to flesh out Green Arrow's backstory
Ummm.... I mean, comic book Green Arrow originally was just Batman with a different set of toys. Playboy millionaire, Arrowplane, Arrowcar, Arrowboat, Arrowcave[1], sidekick. It wasn't until the 70s that there was a lot of change in that (Denny O'Neill wrote him losing his fortune and becoming a radical left-wing proponent for the underserved), and then his backstory was rewritten in the early 90s to be pretty much as Arrow presented it[2].
[1] ... which leads to my favorite bit from Injustice
[2] or, at least, as far as I've gotten in Arrow (mid-season 2)
posted by hanov3r at 10:01 AM on August 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Ummm.... I mean, comic book Green Arrow originally was just Batman with a different set of toys. Playboy millionaire, Arrowplane, Arrowcar, Arrowboat, Arrowcave[1], sidekick. It wasn't until the 70s that there was a lot of change in that (Denny O'Neill wrote him losing his fortune and becoming a radical left-wing proponent for the underserved), and then his backstory was rewritten in the early 90s to be pretty much as Arrow presented it[2].
[1] ... which leads to my favorite bit from Injustice
[2] or, at least, as far as I've gotten in Arrow (mid-season 2)
posted by hanov3r at 10:01 AM on August 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
There's another complaint that is out there: Batwoman is also Jewish, and it's really surprising how rarely Jewish actors are cast to play Jewish characters. There is no dearth of Jews in the profession. I guess people just think "Jew" is another flavor of "white" and don't think this sort of representation discussion needs to include us.
That being said, often "Jewish" is just another flavor of white. I don't expect Batwoman will do all that much with the character being Jewish, and so it won't make that much difference here, like it really didn't matter that much that Michael Chiklis played Ben Grimm, even though The Thing is also Jewish, and Michael Chiklis already looks like The Thing, so it worked.
I think the issue becomes more pressing when the character's Jewish identity is important to the story. This really stands out for me in Mrs. Maisel, which I know a lot of people love, but there are all these little cultural misfires, these moments of not-knowing and not-getting it, that I think are exacerbated by significant members of the cast -- including the lead -- not being Jewish, and the creator having not been raised in an extremely Jewish environment, and so when the real nuances of the mid-20th century Jewish experience come up, they aren't done with precision.
I doubt this will be an issue here, whereas I suspect Batwoman's sexuality will be a significant story element, so in this case, which I would ideally hope for a Jewish lesbian in the role, I think it is more important to have a lesbian than a Jew.
posted by maxsparber at 10:06 AM on August 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
That being said, often "Jewish" is just another flavor of white. I don't expect Batwoman will do all that much with the character being Jewish, and so it won't make that much difference here, like it really didn't matter that much that Michael Chiklis played Ben Grimm, even though The Thing is also Jewish, and Michael Chiklis already looks like The Thing, so it worked.
I think the issue becomes more pressing when the character's Jewish identity is important to the story. This really stands out for me in Mrs. Maisel, which I know a lot of people love, but there are all these little cultural misfires, these moments of not-knowing and not-getting it, that I think are exacerbated by significant members of the cast -- including the lead -- not being Jewish, and the creator having not been raised in an extremely Jewish environment, and so when the real nuances of the mid-20th century Jewish experience come up, they aren't done with precision.
I doubt this will be an issue here, whereas I suspect Batwoman's sexuality will be a significant story element, so in this case, which I would ideally hope for a Jewish lesbian in the role, I think it is more important to have a lesbian than a Jew.
posted by maxsparber at 10:06 AM on August 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
"Rev. T De Witt Talmadge says that women have a right to do everything which they can do well. Certainly; but if men were permitted to do only that which they do well, what a host of poor fellows would be thrown out of employment." -woodhull and claflins sep. 9 1871
posted by xarnop at 10:21 AM on August 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by xarnop at 10:21 AM on August 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
Bad actor? Maybe just needs the right role for her type of acting.
posted by otherchaz at 10:25 AM on August 16, 2018
posted by otherchaz at 10:25 AM on August 16, 2018
I don't believe there are bad actors. I think there are merely miscast actors, which explains why January Jones was so extraordinary in Mad Men and so terrible in almost everything else.
posted by maxsparber at 10:37 AM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 10:37 AM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
This really stands out for me in Mrs. Maisel, which I know a lot of people love, but there are all these little cultural misfires, these moments of not-knowing and not-getting it
Interesting, I have watched a few episodes and generally enjoyed them but as a middle-aged Midwestern white guy, I have no frame of reference for “authenticity”. I was aware that the lead is actually an Irish woman from the Midwest and Tony Shaloub is Lebanese-American but basically trusted the writers/producers to get the details right.
That said, whenever I see some tortured character struggling with their faith while giving confession to a Catholic priest, it’s pretty much guaranteed eyeroll time for me.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:44 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Interesting, I have watched a few episodes and generally enjoyed them but as a middle-aged Midwestern white guy, I have no frame of reference for “authenticity”. I was aware that the lead is actually an Irish woman from the Midwest and Tony Shaloub is Lebanese-American but basically trusted the writers/producers to get the details right.
That said, whenever I see some tortured character struggling with their faith while giving confession to a Catholic priest, it’s pretty much guaranteed eyeroll time for me.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:44 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I gave up on Arrow at the end of Season 4, because Oliver is a pretty terrible person who doesn’t learn, because... grimdark, I suppose. I guess if they could introduce a costumed vigilante who was also not s terrible person, that would be great, especially if part of the point is Oliver never gets to drag her into his horrible orbit.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:44 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:44 AM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Now things are changing even more radically where the demand is increasingly for the role to match the real identity of the actors.
But only in a specific way: The demand is increasingly for the identity of the actor to match the role when the identity in question is marginalized in some way. This is what tells you it's about representation.
A white actor playing a role that was originally Asian will be criticized for taking roles away from Asian actors. An Asian actor being hired to play a role that was originally white will only be criticized by racists who want to score rhetorical points against people concerned about racial representation.
A cisgender actor playing a trangender role will be criticized for taking roles away from transgender actors and because cisgender actors have often been bad at representing transgender characters. A transgender actor playing a cisgender role will only be criticized by exclusionists who want to score rhetorical points against people concerned about transgender inclusion.
A straight actor playing a lesbian character... etc etc etc
It's not really that people are demanding that actors match identities. It's about representation - whether it's there (are actors getting jobs) and whether it's accurate (are the actors/writers/etc doing a good job, which is less likely the fewer people of that identity are involved).
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:58 AM on August 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
But only in a specific way: The demand is increasingly for the identity of the actor to match the role when the identity in question is marginalized in some way. This is what tells you it's about representation.
A white actor playing a role that was originally Asian will be criticized for taking roles away from Asian actors. An Asian actor being hired to play a role that was originally white will only be criticized by racists who want to score rhetorical points against people concerned about racial representation.
A cisgender actor playing a trangender role will be criticized for taking roles away from transgender actors and because cisgender actors have often been bad at representing transgender characters. A transgender actor playing a cisgender role will only be criticized by exclusionists who want to score rhetorical points against people concerned about transgender inclusion.
A straight actor playing a lesbian character... etc etc etc
It's not really that people are demanding that actors match identities. It's about representation - whether it's there (are actors getting jobs) and whether it's accurate (are the actors/writers/etc doing a good job, which is less likely the fewer people of that identity are involved).
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:58 AM on August 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
Ummm.... I mean, comic book Green Arrow originally was just Batman with a different set of toys.
This is true, but the Arrow series goes a few steps further than that. Since you're only up to S02, I'll try not to get too deep into spoilers, but the storyline of S03 is pretty much a redux of Batman's entire history with Ra's Al Ghul (as told in the comics and other media) but with Ollie Queen in place of Bruce Wayne. It works up to a point, but it made me wonder why I was bothering to watch a Green Arrow show if they weren't going to play up the things that make him different from Batman.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:21 AM on August 16, 2018
This is true, but the Arrow series goes a few steps further than that. Since you're only up to S02, I'll try not to get too deep into spoilers, but the storyline of S03 is pretty much a redux of Batman's entire history with Ra's Al Ghul (as told in the comics and other media) but with Ollie Queen in place of Bruce Wayne. It works up to a point, but it made me wonder why I was bothering to watch a Green Arrow show if they weren't going to play up the things that make him different from Batman.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:21 AM on August 16, 2018
It's not really that people are demanding that actors match identities. It's about representation
Yes, that is a better way to put it and was what I was trying to get at in a more clumsy manner. I didn't mean it as a complaint in any way, which "demand" might have implied.
The issue of representation is so critical, not only in roles originated in some other medium where there is some clear idea of who the character is, but in roles that are originated for the screen where it could be written for anyone, but where the old idea of "anyone" is now quite exploded from its past notion of just straight white people. I'm really interested to see how actors will find notice and move from pre-written roles to having roles originated for them and how the breadth of representation might change in media.
I do worry that there could be some desire on Hollywood's part to continue to marginalize minority representation in favor of their usual star system because of their belief in predictability of star appeal on revenue, which might maintain a disproportionate amount of white stars in their roles for their generic quality so long favored by the industry. I suspect though the excitement over new possibilities will give rise to a whole new range of stars that will have roles designed for them. The changes to past practice itself is exciting to see.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:28 AM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yes, that is a better way to put it and was what I was trying to get at in a more clumsy manner. I didn't mean it as a complaint in any way, which "demand" might have implied.
The issue of representation is so critical, not only in roles originated in some other medium where there is some clear idea of who the character is, but in roles that are originated for the screen where it could be written for anyone, but where the old idea of "anyone" is now quite exploded from its past notion of just straight white people. I'm really interested to see how actors will find notice and move from pre-written roles to having roles originated for them and how the breadth of representation might change in media.
I do worry that there could be some desire on Hollywood's part to continue to marginalize minority representation in favor of their usual star system because of their belief in predictability of star appeal on revenue, which might maintain a disproportionate amount of white stars in their roles for their generic quality so long favored by the industry. I suspect though the excitement over new possibilities will give rise to a whole new range of stars that will have roles designed for them. The changes to past practice itself is exciting to see.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:28 AM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
maxsparber, it gets a bit more odd in that Arrow currently has a character who is Jewish (Felicity Smoak), and her faith has been an important component of her character. However, the woman playing her is not Jewish.
posted by rednikki at 2:14 PM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by rednikki at 2:14 PM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Rose doesn't seem (so far) to have a lot of range, but she's got a great screen presence and a ton of charisma. I think she'd be good for this kind of role.
The same could be said about Keanu for a lot of his roles.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 3:24 PM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
The same could be said about Keanu for a lot of his roles.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 3:24 PM on August 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
I keep up with all the Arrowverse shows and if there's one thing that's basically true about most of the actors on these shows is that they do indeed start off shaky as relatively unknown actors and eventually get pretty good at playing that role. Grant Gustin and Melissa Benoist were known for Glee before their respective staring roles, but that didn'tt mean they can do superhero shows well, but they're now closely associated with their roles. Despite the many (many) bumps in the stories of the heroes, on the whole every single cast member have falling into a familiar groove with their characters and their acting for the roles do improve. It's also why many of us on FanFare lament the poor plot points because the actors do really try to act around the poor writing, and it's more noticeable because we've grown to believe the characters could make better decisions, and in part that's because of the improved acting. Oliver of season one making dumb mistakes doesn't result in the same emotional acting out of Stephen Amell as he does in the latest one. (There's a tremendous scene between Oliver and John Diggle later in this past season that could earn them Emmy noms if the reason for that scene happening wasn't so hamfisted).
While we're on the subject, Legends of Tomorrow perhaps has the widest range required out of Arrowverse because you never know when they have to be dramatic and/or goofy in any given scene, and it's worked out great. Scene-chewing is even necessary, and all the original team members pull it off quite well.
So for all the complaints about bad acting, I think these shows already don't require very much range, but the stories provide just enough layers for an actor to hone their skills within the context of the show. And they've been pushing the boundaries with regards to LGBTQ+ representation, so another non-hetero lead role is very welcomed.
However, what I can't stress enough is that at this point, CW has full on taken the ball out of comic books' court and playing it on their own field. I just do not see the point in comparing the comic book versions of these characters to their TV adaptations. You can hate on it all you want, but this is a wholly different universe for these characters. They don't have to adhere strictly to anything from their origins. Even well known comic book plots for these characters are rearranged and retold within the context of the shows; and sure they might not satisfy us (see: The Flash on trial), and it's definitely fan-service to try and repackage these plots, but it's difficult to compare the two mediums.
posted by numaner at 4:46 PM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
While we're on the subject, Legends of Tomorrow perhaps has the widest range required out of Arrowverse because you never know when they have to be dramatic and/or goofy in any given scene, and it's worked out great. Scene-chewing is even necessary, and all the original team members pull it off quite well.
So for all the complaints about bad acting, I think these shows already don't require very much range, but the stories provide just enough layers for an actor to hone their skills within the context of the show. And they've been pushing the boundaries with regards to LGBTQ+ representation, so another non-hetero lead role is very welcomed.
However, what I can't stress enough is that at this point, CW has full on taken the ball out of comic books' court and playing it on their own field. I just do not see the point in comparing the comic book versions of these characters to their TV adaptations. You can hate on it all you want, but this is a wholly different universe for these characters. They don't have to adhere strictly to anything from their origins. Even well known comic book plots for these characters are rearranged and retold within the context of the shows; and sure they might not satisfy us (see: The Flash on trial), and it's definitely fan-service to try and repackage these plots, but it's difficult to compare the two mediums.
posted by numaner at 4:46 PM on August 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Always wondered about that with Felicity. Though folks can convert religions, I suppose.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:26 PM on August 16, 2018
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:26 PM on August 16, 2018
I haven't seen the actress in anything, so I don't have an opinion to offer about her, but the introduction of Batwoman means that there won't be a big four-way cross-over event this year. Apparently, the Berlanti team figured that they would have a hard time topping the last one (no kidding), and (more directly) introducing the Kate Kane character was going to be too serious/dramatic to warrant crossing over with Legends (who are going to be monster hunters this year).
Personally, I really don't think it makes much sense to cross over with Supergirl and skip Legends given that Supergirl takes place on a different Earth and Legends grew out of team Arrow, but as I keep saying in the DCCW Fanfare threads, I'm not in charge.
posted by sardonyx at 8:16 PM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Personally, I really don't think it makes much sense to cross over with Supergirl and skip Legends given that Supergirl takes place on a different Earth and Legends grew out of team Arrow, but as I keep saying in the DCCW Fanfare threads, I'm not in charge.
posted by sardonyx at 8:16 PM on August 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think that it will be very interesting to see if they do anything with Maggie Sawyer WRT Kate.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:01 PM on August 16, 2018
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:01 PM on August 16, 2018
I don't think they will since TV Maggie was a Supergirl character, and therefore on a different Earth.
Mind you I guess she could move to a different earth (as Harry did on Flash) or she could be an Earth-1 counterpart. It seems the actress who played her has a steady job at the moment, so it would likely call for the part to be recast. I was going to say that doesn't seem to be the M.O. of the Berlanti shows, but then I realized they swapped out the actresses who played Supergirl's mom so there is a recent precedent.
If they did put Maggie together with Kate, I'd really hate to diagram just which of the Arrowverse women have slept with each other, or with their current partners. It would be one big interconnected mess: Kate and Maggie, Maggie and Alex, Alex and Sara, Sara and Ava. I think we need some new blood before they run out of pairings.
posted by sardonyx at 9:18 PM on August 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Mind you I guess she could move to a different earth (as Harry did on Flash) or she could be an Earth-1 counterpart. It seems the actress who played her has a steady job at the moment, so it would likely call for the part to be recast. I was going to say that doesn't seem to be the M.O. of the Berlanti shows, but then I realized they swapped out the actresses who played Supergirl's mom so there is a recent precedent.
If they did put Maggie together with Kate, I'd really hate to diagram just which of the Arrowverse women have slept with each other, or with their current partners. It would be one big interconnected mess: Kate and Maggie, Maggie and Alex, Alex and Sara, Sara and Ava. I think we need some new blood before they run out of pairings.
posted by sardonyx at 9:18 PM on August 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I entered the Arrowverse with extreme skepticism and intentions to make fun of it all, and wound up adoring it. Even if I continue to make fun of it. I watch nearly every comics adaptation and there's a case to be made that Arrowverse best captures the agony and ecstasy of reading superhero comics. They own and revel in the silver age silliness, the nineties grim darkness, all the 80 Page Giant excesses that make superheroes immortal. I began to thaw rapidly for Arrow when I got to the season where there was consistently not one but two eyepatch villains onscreen and not a single episode went by without at least one motorcycle stunt.
True to the spirit of the comics they may be, they are also doing things with the lore you would never see in any other format or circumstances. I love Arrowverse for telling a story that DC Comics would never have the balls to do: 6 (going on 7 years) of an nearly fully realized DC universe which the Green Arrow, Supergirl and the Flash must defend without any help from the Big Three (aside from Superman's quick stop through National City last year, of course). Oliver, Barry and Kara are treated like middle grade Justice Leaguers at best in every other incarnation of the DC universe but on Earths-CW, they are the Big Three. This is a DC where the farm leaguers had to step up. Vibe is a major player. So is fucking Wild Dog. There hasn't been a Wild Dog comic in 30 years, but here he is on cable every week. Amazing.
The city of Vancouver deserves an Emmy for this franchise. I love that they have it playing four different cities in three different dimensions but every single time the superheroes need to aver a disaster at a sporting event, it's a hockey game. I love that in a world where Marvel struggles to fit even a moment of LGBTQ representation into a single project, CW DC continues to casually dunk on them with multiple affirming gay characters across multiple projects. And Batwoman will be a step up from even that!
I'm so stoked Batwoman will be joining this wild cable comics universe. If Arrowverse must at last visit Gotham City, I think she's the only Bat character I'd want to see there. Even Nightwing would be too big leagues for what I love about these shows. I don't want to see a single Wayne Manor resident anywhere near these stories, but I'm crossing my fingers hard that Manhunter turns up in the supporting cast. Berlanti and company have done something like a dozen Gorilla Grodd episodes at this point, so I rule nothing out.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:56 PM on August 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
True to the spirit of the comics they may be, they are also doing things with the lore you would never see in any other format or circumstances. I love Arrowverse for telling a story that DC Comics would never have the balls to do: 6 (going on 7 years) of an nearly fully realized DC universe which the Green Arrow, Supergirl and the Flash must defend without any help from the Big Three (aside from Superman's quick stop through National City last year, of course). Oliver, Barry and Kara are treated like middle grade Justice Leaguers at best in every other incarnation of the DC universe but on Earths-CW, they are the Big Three. This is a DC where the farm leaguers had to step up. Vibe is a major player. So is fucking Wild Dog. There hasn't been a Wild Dog comic in 30 years, but here he is on cable every week. Amazing.
The city of Vancouver deserves an Emmy for this franchise. I love that they have it playing four different cities in three different dimensions but every single time the superheroes need to aver a disaster at a sporting event, it's a hockey game. I love that in a world where Marvel struggles to fit even a moment of LGBTQ representation into a single project, CW DC continues to casually dunk on them with multiple affirming gay characters across multiple projects. And Batwoman will be a step up from even that!
I'm so stoked Batwoman will be joining this wild cable comics universe. If Arrowverse must at last visit Gotham City, I think she's the only Bat character I'd want to see there. Even Nightwing would be too big leagues for what I love about these shows. I don't want to see a single Wayne Manor resident anywhere near these stories, but I'm crossing my fingers hard that Manhunter turns up in the supporting cast. Berlanti and company have done something like a dozen Gorilla Grodd episodes at this point, so I rule nothing out.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:56 PM on August 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
well I was going to try to pick the lady equivalent of Hamlet, but lolsob there isn’t one because there aren’t iconic roles for women. So idk, Ophelia.
someone already said Lady Macbeth, but here's a whole discussion and short list
posted by eustatic at 7:54 AM on August 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
someone already said Lady Macbeth, but here's a whole discussion and short list
posted by eustatic at 7:54 AM on August 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I realized they swapped out the actresses who played Supergirl's mom so there is a recent precedent.
that was a giant shock to me, because my first thought was WTF WHY IS SUPERGIRL CALLING LOIS LANE MOM??
posted by numaner at 9:56 AM on August 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
that was a giant shock to me, because my first thought was WTF WHY IS SUPERGIRL CALLING LOIS LANE MOM??
posted by numaner at 9:56 AM on August 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
but I'm crossing my fingers hard that Manhunter turns up in the supporting cast.
Kate Spencer has actually been on Arrow, as a prosecutor going after Oliver Queen. Spoilers ahead, but I don't think she'll be appearing on the show. Another iteration of Manhuter, Mark Shaw, has also been on the show, and there's a better chance that he might return.
posted by numaner at 10:13 AM on August 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Kate Spencer has actually been on Arrow, as a prosecutor going after Oliver Queen. Spoilers ahead, but I don't think she'll be appearing on the show. Another iteration of Manhuter, Mark Shaw, has also been on the show, and there's a better chance that he might return.
posted by numaner at 10:13 AM on August 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Mind you I guess she could move to a different earth (as Harry did on Flash) or she could be an Earth-1 counterpart.
I could also seeing an Earth-1 Maggie Sawyer happening, but yeah probably a different actress, maybe even acknowledged in the show as not an exact counterpart, and thus sparing Alex Danver's emotions should they ever meet.
posted by numaner at 10:15 AM on August 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
I could also seeing an Earth-1 Maggie Sawyer happening, but yeah probably a different actress, maybe even acknowledged in the show as not an exact counterpart, and thus sparing Alex Danver's emotions should they ever meet.
posted by numaner at 10:15 AM on August 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Or not. Because the Arrowverse is often about the OTT emotionally over-wrought face. Berlanti seems to believe in making the characters suffer. Except Mick. Mick just burns whatever hurts him. Except his dad. Because the others stopped him.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 9:29 PM on August 17, 2018
posted by Ignorantsavage at 9:29 PM on August 17, 2018
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posted by like_neon at 7:00 AM on August 16, 2018 [6 favorites]