Everything That Belonged to Us is Coming Back
August 22, 2018 6:01 AM Subscribe
The full scale of the criminality is impossible to pinpoint, because many heists never make the headlines ... But the thefts that were made public bear striking similarities. The criminals are careful and professional. They often seem to be working from a shopping list—and appear content to leave behind high-value objects that aren't on it. In each case, the robbers focused their efforts on art and antiquities from China, especially items that had been looted by foreign armies. Many of these objects are well documented and publicly known, making them very hard to sell and difficult to display. In most cases the pieces have not been recovered; they seem to simply vanish. The Great Chinese Art Heist by Alex W. Palmer [SLGQ]
FTA:
posted by zombieflanders at 6:48 AM on August 22, 2018 [22 favorites]
In the face of China's repatriation campaign—and the recent robberies—museums are now scrambling. Some have stood their ground, arguing the legitimacy of their acquisitions or touting the value to the Chinese of sharing their culture abroad.Oh, fuck you. You're arguing that you deserve the property of another culture that you appropriated, almost always for profit or some other form of greed. This is part and parcel of the disdain you show for Native American art and artifacts white people gave you after slaughtering most of them and forcing the rest from their homes. When museums and especially private collectors pull this shit, I can't even really be mad that they're being "robbed," even if it's at the direction of a government like China's.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:48 AM on August 22, 2018 [22 favorites]
Good for China.
When I was in London I went to the British Museum, and while the collection is pretty incredible I left with a bad taste in my mouth. So much of it is just pure plunder. Some asshole basically tore off an entire wall from the Parthenon! Ugh.
posted by graventy at 6:57 AM on August 22, 2018 [12 favorites]
When I was in London I went to the British Museum, and while the collection is pretty incredible I left with a bad taste in my mouth. So much of it is just pure plunder. Some asshole basically tore off an entire wall from the Parthenon! Ugh.
posted by graventy at 6:57 AM on August 22, 2018 [12 favorites]
GOOD.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:21 AM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by schadenfrau at 7:21 AM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
The problem is that a stolen item is not necessarily going to end up on display for the Chinese people; it could stay in a private collection and still be lost to them. And while I am a big supporter of repatriation of these items globally, any article about Chinese art in this context that doesn’t discuss the fact that so much was destroyed in China in some places during the cultural revolution that that is one other reason that a great deal of art is also lost to the Chinese people, is a bit surprising.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 7:32 AM on August 22, 2018 [40 favorites]
posted by lesbiassparrow at 7:32 AM on August 22, 2018 [40 favorites]
Plunder Never loses its taint. You may only keep it if the nation it was stolen from no longer exists and has no successor state.
posted by Sterros at 7:33 AM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Sterros at 7:33 AM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
When Hollywood makes the movie about this, will it be thriller about Tom Hanks the plucky museum curator who uncovers a dastardly plot by the inscrutable Chinese to loot his museum? Or will it be a heist movie about the rag-tag group of grifters and con-men hired by the inscrutable Chinese to loot museums?
There is sadly no question about whether any Chinese characters will be portrayed as inscrutable.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:35 AM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
There is sadly no question about whether any Chinese characters will be portrayed as inscrutable.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:35 AM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
...so much was destroyed in China in some places during the cultural revolution that that is one other reason that a great deal of art is also lost to the Chinese people
The problem is that this argument is a way of saying that "We' will take care of your stuff/history because you cannot be trusted with it.
A similar argument has been made that the much more civilized UK can better take care of the Parthenon Marbles than chaotic Greece. Never mind that the former is now talking openly about civil unrest and the latter has a modern museum ready to host the artifacts.
posted by vacapinta at 7:46 AM on August 22, 2018 [18 favorites]
The problem is that this argument is a way of saying that "We' will take care of your stuff/history because you cannot be trusted with it.
A similar argument has been made that the much more civilized UK can better take care of the Parthenon Marbles than chaotic Greece. Never mind that the former is now talking openly about civil unrest and the latter has a modern museum ready to host the artifacts.
posted by vacapinta at 7:46 AM on August 22, 2018 [18 favorites]
Yeah, if the artifacts are just going to end up in some rich guy’s personal collection, I’m not sure the justice is with the thieves....
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:14 AM on August 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:14 AM on August 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
I thing this is a much more complicated topic than is convenient to be outraged by. I saw Ai Weiwei's Animal Heads and reading the liner notes gave me modest insight into this fact. I am not going to attempt to argue because in terms of real scholarship I know close to zero about Chinese art, propaganda, nationalism, european predation and on and on.
posted by Pembquist at 8:33 AM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Pembquist at 8:33 AM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
However not just the stealing of art for a personal collection is, it's no less legitimate than the claim the museums stolen from have... Like, you shouldn't get to cry "hey they're stealing from me!!" about stolen property and be taken seriously.
posted by Dysk at 8:52 AM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 8:52 AM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
I get that people might think they're both fine, while I'm okay with the one (the return of art for the public good) and not the other (the return of art for private benefit).
I don't think it's as simple as that. Was the art publicly displayed before it was taken to the west? If not, what is wrong with returning it to the private collection from which it was taken? I don't think whacking something stolen on a public pedestal makes that theft okay by some sort of Robin Hood logic.
posted by Dysk at 8:57 AM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's as simple as that. Was the art publicly displayed before it was taken to the west? If not, what is wrong with returning it to the private collection from which it was taken? I don't think whacking something stolen on a public pedestal makes that theft okay by some sort of Robin Hood logic.
posted by Dysk at 8:57 AM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Museums - and other cultural institutions similarly charged with* memory - have a very difficult task, I think, when it comes to the legacy of empire. I'd like to see the artifacts repatriated, the plunder acknowledged. I'd also like to maintain? create? public access for the art, so that it isn't lost to private collections. But is even that instinct an acculturated one? If the statue was in the Emperor's private study, and without some act of plunder would never have been seen by the public, what right does the public have to it now?
*both in the sense of 'responsible for' and 'full of'
posted by Fraxas at 9:01 AM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
*both in the sense of 'responsible for' and 'full of'
posted by Fraxas at 9:01 AM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
I would be interested to know how much art China has pillaged from its neighboring countries over the past couple millennia. Not that it justifies Western behavior, but often this story gets presented as a narrative of a distinctively Western sin when, in fact, China was the imperial power of its region for a very, very long time. What, e.g., Korean or Tibetan wealth lies in Chinese hands?
If not, what is wrong with returning it to the private collection from which it was taken?
I will potentially get indignant on behalf of the Chinese people being denied their cultural heritage, but have you really thought through the kinds of people capable of arrogating this art to themselves today? I have no moral outrage to spare on behalf of today's corrupt, exploitative, in-league-with-a-oppressive-regime Chinese crony-billionaire. The priceless treasures of the Summer Palace belonged to the Chinese government. Stealing it back to a private collection is just another form of looting.
posted by praemunire at 9:03 AM on August 22, 2018 [20 favorites]
If not, what is wrong with returning it to the private collection from which it was taken?
I will potentially get indignant on behalf of the Chinese people being denied their cultural heritage, but have you really thought through the kinds of people capable of arrogating this art to themselves today? I have no moral outrage to spare on behalf of today's corrupt, exploitative, in-league-with-a-oppressive-regime Chinese crony-billionaire. The priceless treasures of the Summer Palace belonged to the Chinese government. Stealing it back to a private collection is just another form of looting.
posted by praemunire at 9:03 AM on August 22, 2018 [20 favorites]
Is it being returned to the private collection from which it was taken?
We have no idea. We don't know what's happening to it. I just object to the "but we made it public" argument as having weight in and of itself.
posted by Dysk at 9:10 AM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
We have no idea. We don't know what's happening to it. I just object to the "but we made it public" argument as having weight in and of itself.
posted by Dysk at 9:10 AM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Possession of stolen property is a crime in many areas -- if you steal some diamonds from a diamond thief, you're still committing a crime even though the original thief may not be in a position to make a claim, morally or legally, against you.
This is also irrelevant here - nobody from the British Museum or any other collection like it is being charged with anything. Possession of stolen property is apparently perfectly fine if the theft was long enough ago, and/or the victim foreign enough.
posted by Dysk at 9:14 AM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
This is also irrelevant here - nobody from the British Museum or any other collection like it is being charged with anything. Possession of stolen property is apparently perfectly fine if the theft was long enough ago, and/or the victim foreign enough.
posted by Dysk at 9:14 AM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
Finally, billionaires committing fun crimes like heists, instead of stupid boring crimes like tax evasion and money laundering.
posted by bigbigdog at 9:39 AM on August 22, 2018 [23 favorites]
posted by bigbigdog at 9:39 AM on August 22, 2018 [23 favorites]
If you’re angry about the British Museum, you should see what they’ve got in Berlin.
posted by Segundus at 9:49 AM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Segundus at 9:49 AM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Here's what I advised a recent M.A. In Chinese Studies Mefite to do nine years ago:
posted by jamjam at 9:51 AM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
Go to work for the Chinese -- either the government or some private entity.That the repatriation movement might devolve, or evolve, into commando raids didn't occur to me, as I recall, but it should have.
. . .
For example, if you like Chinese art and cultural artifacts and have a bent for history, I imagine there are many Chinese in government and outside who are highly interested in retrieving Chinese art and artifacts which left the country during the last century, many of them no doubt under questionable circumstances when China was too weak and chaotic to do anything about it. You conceivably could propose to make a survey of such things in public collections (what they are, where they are, who owns them and how they got them) in the area where you're going to school and get someone in China to pay you well to do it.
posted by jamjam at 9:51 AM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
A similar argument has been made that the much more civilized UK can better take care of the Parthenon Marbles than chaotic Greece. Never mind that the former is now talking openly about civil unrest and the latter has a modern museum ready to host the artifacts.
"When the facts change, I change my mind."
Art preservation is a pretty objective thing to discuss. Damage to an artifact is damage. Avoiding it is objectively a good thing. It was a Good Thing that a lot of the Chinese artifacts were outside CHina during the cultural revolution. One can say that without implying anything against the dignity of the Chinese people. And then one can turn around and say it's time for those artifacts to be shipped home.
posted by ocschwar at 10:08 AM on August 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
"When the facts change, I change my mind."
Art preservation is a pretty objective thing to discuss. Damage to an artifact is damage. Avoiding it is objectively a good thing. It was a Good Thing that a lot of the Chinese artifacts were outside CHina during the cultural revolution. One can say that without implying anything against the dignity of the Chinese people. And then one can turn around and say it's time for those artifacts to be shipped home.
posted by ocschwar at 10:08 AM on August 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
They were told it had made its way back to China and was now on display at a Shanghai airport.To be clear, he's talking about the Chinese attitude, not the Western perspective that these stolen items rightly belong to the museums. To be honest though, he should be talking about the western perspective.
...
Noah Charney, a professor of art history and founder of the Association for Research into Crimes Against Art, says that when it comes to winning back their lost art, the Chinese can't imagine how such a thing would be wrong. “It's almost like there's a fog around it from a criminological perspective,”
It seems to me that the Chinese government is aware of this. In my mind if the museums were asked nicely even once, stealing them back is fair game. From a 'criminological perspective', shouldn't the entire board members (or whoever makes the decision to not give the stolen materials back) be imprisoned?
In my mind the museums should be super grateful that the thieves didn't reciprocate the western looters and burn the museums down to the ground after stealing every single item in them.
posted by el io at 10:16 AM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
The repatriation of Chinese art and artifacts is even further complicated by the fact that one of the biggest and probably the best collection of Chinese antiquities is not located in China. it's at the National Palace Museum that's located in Taiwan. The artworks were evacuated (Wikipedia's wording) in 1949, when the Republic of China lost the Chinese Civil War. Early on the People's Republic of China would say that these treasures were stolen. However, China hasn't really said that in recent years and has even lent some pieces to the NPM. I think the PRC dropped their claims partly because to continue saying them would be admitting in a small way that Taiwan is not a part of China.
But for now, if you want to go see some really amazing Chinese art like the Meat-stone, book a flight to Taiwan.
posted by FJT at 10:21 AM on August 22, 2018 [10 favorites]
But for now, if you want to go see some really amazing Chinese art like the Meat-stone, book a flight to Taiwan.
posted by FJT at 10:21 AM on August 22, 2018 [10 favorites]
There is a view that the European museums are 70% right and 30% wrong. That none of us hold true title to anything. And that the thing near the(fabulous) jade cabbage in Taipei is not art.
posted by hawthorne at 10:30 AM on August 22, 2018
posted by hawthorne at 10:30 AM on August 22, 2018
jacquilynne: When Hollywood makes the movie about this, will it be thriller about Tom Hanks the plucky museum curator who uncovers a dastardly plot by the inscrutable Chinese to loot his museum? Or will it be a heist movie about the rag-tag group of grifters and con-men hired by the inscrutable Chinese to loot museums?
Fear not, Hong Kong cinema has you covered.
posted by sukeban at 10:44 AM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
Fear not, Hong Kong cinema has you covered.
posted by sukeban at 10:44 AM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
That the repatriation movement might devolve, or evolve, into commando raids didn't occur to me, as I recall, but it should have.
My comment may come off sounding a bit incoherent, lack of sleep plus a profound ignorance of modern museums and their complicity in neo-colonialism, but here goes.
"Stealing them back" is NOT the way to deal with it! So you're a Chinese billionaire, your still-ostensibly-Communist country suddenly has the money and influence to come to terms with its past as a victim of colonialism, and countless artifacts from your ancestral culture are on display in museums run by the successor governments of your former oppressors. What do you do?
Here's an idea - ask nicely for your things back. Set up endowments and display loan programs. Focus on preservation, public access, translation and workshops on previous scholarship. Other artsy exchange stuff. I am not part of this world or familiar with it so I don't know how that would all work. Is there a reason smash-and-grab would be preferable to handling priceless antiques responsibly?
BTW how y'all think all this fancy stuff ended up in the Old Summer Palace in the first place? Would the words "imperial excess" and "internal colonialism" be out of place? Billionaires robbing the taxpaying public...albeit this time the European public...I kinda understand why early Party doctrine called art bourgeois excess. They had a point. Keeping priceless tchotckes laying around sure seems to attract robbers and cause hurt feelings.
The soldiers and governments that committed all these crimes are dead and gone. The artifacts were stolen, yes, but I say this as someone who has seen Angkor Wat - there's a better way, and that way is collaborative, international, and involves continuing use (in Angkor Wat's case, it's still used as a Buddhist monastery). The UK don't run a colonial empire anymore, Norway never did, the US...I mean they'll work with you on this issue. Nobody likes colonial legacies or modern art theft. The original sin that cast these objects into the world has to be forgiven, just like the original sin that produced them, so that we can address the problem productively. We have them, they are China's and our legacy, and I'd like to see that legacy treated with respect and shared for the edification of all mankind, rather than smashed or hidden away in a private collection.
China wants them back and that's only fair. China also wants to show the world it's incredible civilization, and that's fair. They don't have to be mutually exclusive things!
ESPECIALLY given China's modern-day problem with tomb raiding and relic theft today. Museums, historians, scholars, and collectors everywhere need to get their heads out of their proverbial butts and work with governments to get these relics cared for and under guard, especially in China. I see no reason why China shouldn't control what happens to them, but private art collectors are much more the problem than the solution here.
As a sad footnote to this, consider the case of the "Palace Museum" in Beijing and Taipei. One contains the buildings, the other contains the stuff that was kept in the buildings prior to 1949. Patriotic acrimony didn't help when the colonial powers looted China, and it's not helping now.
posted by saysthis at 11:01 AM on August 22, 2018 [11 favorites]
My comment may come off sounding a bit incoherent, lack of sleep plus a profound ignorance of modern museums and their complicity in neo-colonialism, but here goes.
"Stealing them back" is NOT the way to deal with it! So you're a Chinese billionaire, your still-ostensibly-Communist country suddenly has the money and influence to come to terms with its past as a victim of colonialism, and countless artifacts from your ancestral culture are on display in museums run by the successor governments of your former oppressors. What do you do?
Here's an idea - ask nicely for your things back. Set up endowments and display loan programs. Focus on preservation, public access, translation and workshops on previous scholarship. Other artsy exchange stuff. I am not part of this world or familiar with it so I don't know how that would all work. Is there a reason smash-and-grab would be preferable to handling priceless antiques responsibly?
BTW how y'all think all this fancy stuff ended up in the Old Summer Palace in the first place? Would the words "imperial excess" and "internal colonialism" be out of place? Billionaires robbing the taxpaying public...albeit this time the European public...I kinda understand why early Party doctrine called art bourgeois excess. They had a point. Keeping priceless tchotckes laying around sure seems to attract robbers and cause hurt feelings.
The soldiers and governments that committed all these crimes are dead and gone. The artifacts were stolen, yes, but I say this as someone who has seen Angkor Wat - there's a better way, and that way is collaborative, international, and involves continuing use (in Angkor Wat's case, it's still used as a Buddhist monastery). The UK don't run a colonial empire anymore, Norway never did, the US...I mean they'll work with you on this issue. Nobody likes colonial legacies or modern art theft. The original sin that cast these objects into the world has to be forgiven, just like the original sin that produced them, so that we can address the problem productively. We have them, they are China's and our legacy, and I'd like to see that legacy treated with respect and shared for the edification of all mankind, rather than smashed or hidden away in a private collection.
China wants them back and that's only fair. China also wants to show the world it's incredible civilization, and that's fair. They don't have to be mutually exclusive things!
ESPECIALLY given China's modern-day problem with tomb raiding and relic theft today. Museums, historians, scholars, and collectors everywhere need to get their heads out of their proverbial butts and work with governments to get these relics cared for and under guard, especially in China. I see no reason why China shouldn't control what happens to them, but private art collectors are much more the problem than the solution here.
As a sad footnote to this, consider the case of the "Palace Museum" in Beijing and Taipei. One contains the buildings, the other contains the stuff that was kept in the buildings prior to 1949. Patriotic acrimony didn't help when the colonial powers looted China, and it's not helping now.
posted by saysthis at 11:01 AM on August 22, 2018 [11 favorites]
Here's an idea - ask nicely for your things back.
Asking nicely gives the original theft a veneer of legitimacy, one that the people behind this wave of heists may feel is beneath their dignity.
I don;t have a dog in the fight. My personal interest is the same anyone else's - the artifacts' preservation. But I can see the mindset. I'm Israeli, and so far as I know, none of the Jewish artifacts rescued (*) from Arab countries after 1948 were obtained by a polite request.
(*) Wording consciously chosen and justified.
posted by ocschwar at 11:37 AM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Asking nicely gives the original theft a veneer of legitimacy, one that the people behind this wave of heists may feel is beneath their dignity.
I don;t have a dog in the fight. My personal interest is the same anyone else's - the artifacts' preservation. But I can see the mindset. I'm Israeli, and so far as I know, none of the Jewish artifacts rescued (*) from Arab countries after 1948 were obtained by a polite request.
(*) Wording consciously chosen and justified.
posted by ocschwar at 11:37 AM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Calls to mind Vincenzo Perugia who masterminded the theft of the Mona Lisa for the honor of Italy. A little more complicated, since Leonardo had given it to his patron Francis I of France at the time of his (Leonardo's) death.
Some asshole basically tore off an entire wall from the Parthenon!
The Ottomans had stored gunpowder in the Parthenon which made it a target of the Venetians in 1687, which was unfortunate. After that, the bits and pieces lying about were subject to pilferage by various art lovers and dealers. When Lord Elgin was ambassador in 1801, he applied for, and got, permission from the ruling Ottomans to remove what he could from the ruins. That was his story at least; the firman at the heart of the matter was arguably open to interpretation. (On the plus side for us, once inside the BM, they have been spared the ravages of Athenian air pollution.)
If you’re angry about the British Museum, you should see what they’ve got in Berlin.
Much of which went to Russia after the Second World War. Not least of all Priam's Treasure.
In my more sentimental moments, I sometimes think that the museum worthy nice things should be scattered about the globe simply to lessen the odds of Bad Things Happening to individual clusters. A nuke on New York taking out the Met and the Frick, say, or the Getty falling into the ocean* or local fanatics yet again destroying art because Cromwell or the Taliban or Mao or whatever other self-proclaimed moral arbiters said it was the right thing to do.
Which raises the question - had all this stuff the Chinese are (allegedly) repatriating - had the works remained in China all along, would they have survived the Cultural Revolution? At best they would have wound up, along with so much other first rate stuff, in Taiwan's National Palace Museum, but can we be sure? How much native art does a given country need within its own borders, esp. given the open question of whether they can take care of what they already have (I'm thinking Italy). It's a slippery slope from that to buying black market art and antiquities, but you can see how such thinking factors into peoples' various behaviors. I wish I had a reasonable answer.
*(they have taken earthquakes into consideration, but still....)
posted by BWA at 12:07 PM on August 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
Some asshole basically tore off an entire wall from the Parthenon!
The Ottomans had stored gunpowder in the Parthenon which made it a target of the Venetians in 1687, which was unfortunate. After that, the bits and pieces lying about were subject to pilferage by various art lovers and dealers. When Lord Elgin was ambassador in 1801, he applied for, and got, permission from the ruling Ottomans to remove what he could from the ruins. That was his story at least; the firman at the heart of the matter was arguably open to interpretation. (On the plus side for us, once inside the BM, they have been spared the ravages of Athenian air pollution.)
If you’re angry about the British Museum, you should see what they’ve got in Berlin.
Much of which went to Russia after the Second World War. Not least of all Priam's Treasure.
In my more sentimental moments, I sometimes think that the museum worthy nice things should be scattered about the globe simply to lessen the odds of Bad Things Happening to individual clusters. A nuke on New York taking out the Met and the Frick, say, or the Getty falling into the ocean* or local fanatics yet again destroying art because Cromwell or the Taliban or Mao or whatever other self-proclaimed moral arbiters said it was the right thing to do.
Which raises the question - had all this stuff the Chinese are (allegedly) repatriating - had the works remained in China all along, would they have survived the Cultural Revolution? At best they would have wound up, along with so much other first rate stuff, in Taiwan's National Palace Museum, but can we be sure? How much native art does a given country need within its own borders, esp. given the open question of whether they can take care of what they already have (I'm thinking Italy). It's a slippery slope from that to buying black market art and antiquities, but you can see how such thinking factors into peoples' various behaviors. I wish I had a reasonable answer.
*(they have taken earthquakes into consideration, but still....)
posted by BWA at 12:07 PM on August 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
The problem is that this argument is a way of saying that "We' will take care of your stuff/history because you cannot be trusted with it.
It can be used this way yes. But all the same, it is still something that happened and is one reason for huge lacunae in their own records and collections. I want these items repatriated and treated carefully so they are something for the people of those regions that they have roots in. I feel the fact that the Parthenon marbles have not been returned to Greece is an enormous shame, just as I feel that way about the enormous collections of other artifacts the BM and other museums hold. But stealing fragile artefacts is a terrible idea for all sorts of reasons, including the fact that may never reappear because they were damaged at some part of the process. Items get even further scattered and can no longer be studied or seen by anyone, and the history of that piece and what we might gain from it by modern methods of study is also lost...
The heroizing of modern robbers among the elites does not help with dealing with the legacy of other elite robbers., I feel
posted by lesbiassparrow at 12:12 PM on August 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
It can be used this way yes. But all the same, it is still something that happened and is one reason for huge lacunae in their own records and collections. I want these items repatriated and treated carefully so they are something for the people of those regions that they have roots in. I feel the fact that the Parthenon marbles have not been returned to Greece is an enormous shame, just as I feel that way about the enormous collections of other artifacts the BM and other museums hold. But stealing fragile artefacts is a terrible idea for all sorts of reasons, including the fact that may never reappear because they were damaged at some part of the process. Items get even further scattered and can no longer be studied or seen by anyone, and the history of that piece and what we might gain from it by modern methods of study is also lost...
The heroizing of modern robbers among the elites does not help with dealing with the legacy of other elite robbers., I feel
posted by lesbiassparrow at 12:12 PM on August 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
In my more sentimental moments, I sometimes think that the museum worthy nice things should be scattered about the globe simply to lessen the odds of Bad Things Happening to individual clusters.
That's what generally happens with Native American artifacts after they're reclaimed by tribes. The sequence is 1. artifact turns up at museum. 2. Tribe demands it. 3 Tribe receives it. 4 Tribe immediately gets it exhibited at museum, often the same museum, along with a more respectful caption about its significance. They know full well it's best to keep them dispersed (and displayed).
posted by ocschwar at 12:55 PM on August 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
This was an excellent article, and lots to think about re: repatriation and what that means when artifacts are being repatriated to private/secret collections.
But this part blew my mind: “Most of the plunder was taken back to Europe and either tucked away in private collections or presented as gifts to royal families. Queen Victoria of Britain was given a pet Pekingese dog, the first of its kind ever seen in Europe. Unabashed by its provenance, she named it Looty."
posted by thecjm at 2:32 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
But this part blew my mind: “Most of the plunder was taken back to Europe and either tucked away in private collections or presented as gifts to royal families. Queen Victoria of Britain was given a pet Pekingese dog, the first of its kind ever seen in Europe. Unabashed by its provenance, she named it Looty."
posted by thecjm at 2:32 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
A picture of Looty, just to cheer things up a little.
posted by praemunire at 2:35 PM on August 22, 2018
posted by praemunire at 2:35 PM on August 22, 2018
there's a better way,
I think, though, it's important to remember that you, as a presumably white, non Chinese person, don't get to decide what way is "better". I may agree with you but that notion is culturally constructed and they are not our artefacts to apply that principle to.
The CCP in this, as in all things, is clearly a big believer in might makes right, that's their cultural context.
The same applies for thoughts of horror at what might have happened to artefacts in past or future revolutions: to me it doesn't matter; it's their shit, not the west's.
posted by smoke at 2:39 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think, though, it's important to remember that you, as a presumably white, non Chinese person, don't get to decide what way is "better". I may agree with you but that notion is culturally constructed and they are not our artefacts to apply that principle to.
The CCP in this, as in all things, is clearly a big believer in might makes right, that's their cultural context.
The same applies for thoughts of horror at what might have happened to artefacts in past or future revolutions: to me it doesn't matter; it's their shit, not the west's.
posted by smoke at 2:39 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think, though, it's important to remember that you, as a presumably white, non Chinese person, don't get to decide what way is "better". I may agree with you but that notion is culturally constructed and they are not our artefacts to apply that principle to.
If it's a moral question that involves one's own actions, one's own morality is implicated and cannot simply be abdicated to someone else's judgment.
"It's not [our/your/my] business to decide" is a verrrrry popular activist trope, but its application is a lot more limited and difficult than some people seem to realize. Note here that you have basically decided that the Chinese have decided that stealing these artifacts to put in private collections is the proper solution based on...the actions of most likely a handful of extremely rich, extremely corrupt Chinese oligarchs. (It's not even necessarily the CCP, who at least are a formal government, but whom I think perhaps a few Chinese people might object to having designated as their decision-makers and moral arbiters.) Maybe some Chinese scholars would drastically prefer the alternative methods suggested, as preserving the physical safety and safeguarding the provenance of these artifacts. Who decides?
posted by praemunire at 3:03 PM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
If it's a moral question that involves one's own actions, one's own morality is implicated and cannot simply be abdicated to someone else's judgment.
"It's not [our/your/my] business to decide" is a verrrrry popular activist trope, but its application is a lot more limited and difficult than some people seem to realize. Note here that you have basically decided that the Chinese have decided that stealing these artifacts to put in private collections is the proper solution based on...the actions of most likely a handful of extremely rich, extremely corrupt Chinese oligarchs. (It's not even necessarily the CCP, who at least are a formal government, but whom I think perhaps a few Chinese people might object to having designated as their decision-makers and moral arbiters.) Maybe some Chinese scholars would drastically prefer the alternative methods suggested, as preserving the physical safety and safeguarding the provenance of these artifacts. Who decides?
posted by praemunire at 3:03 PM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
I completely agree with you, but the answer I think is at least "not us", and it's important to be aware that 'our' way is not the only way.
If the artefact is sitting in an airport, rest assured the govt knows and sanctions it.
I don't have an answer here, at all. And I'm not defending the CCP (I'm the last person to do that!)
But I think it's important to remember our own white western values are constructed and shouldn't be taken as an assumption or de facto starting point to these discussions.
posted by smoke at 3:12 PM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
If the artefact is sitting in an airport, rest assured the govt knows and sanctions it.
I don't have an answer here, at all. And I'm not defending the CCP (I'm the last person to do that!)
But I think it's important to remember our own white western values are constructed and shouldn't be taken as an assumption or de facto starting point to these discussions.
posted by smoke at 3:12 PM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Angkor Wat is still being looted for foreign art trade. It's a bad example for the virtues of international-led art preservation because of the local and international politics about its restoration tie into genocide and colonialism hard.
I'm still bitter about the British blowing up the Singapore Stone in 1843.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:58 PM on August 22, 2018
I'm still bitter about the British blowing up the Singapore Stone in 1843.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:58 PM on August 22, 2018
I would rather doubt that whoever is behind this is doing so without at least the tacit blessing of the CCP-- particularly if the stolen items are ending up on display.
This article is timely, because I just returned from a Beijing trip. I saw first hand how proud and excited the Chinese are to visit their own heritage, and how much anger their still is at what was lost and destroyed during the unstable years prior to 1949. I'm troubled by using the Cultural Revolution as an excuse not to return the looted goods, particularly since the Cultural Revolution is widely regarded in China as an acknowledged error of judgement. We wouldn't have the right to deny artworks to adults because in their 20s, they let a painting get damaged through lack of care and we don't have the right to say the Chinese don't deserve to have their cultural heritage back because of what happened post Revolution.
The museums who hold the Summer Palace collection are in my view criminal in not returning the treasures. That event, particularly, is one of the most visible instances of colonial ugliness in China and everything seized in it should be treated as ill-gotten goods. I don't see why those objects should be treated any differently than art looted by the Nazis.
(I used to work a great deal in Greece and I still get furious when I think about the so-called Elgin Marbles. I truly believe the British Museum is completely morally bankrupt for refusing to restore the friezes to the Parthenon, and their excuses are sickening. But even the Parthenon marbles have a veneer of legality. There's no such veneer when it comes to the Summer Palace. )
posted by frumiousb at 4:06 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
This article is timely, because I just returned from a Beijing trip. I saw first hand how proud and excited the Chinese are to visit their own heritage, and how much anger their still is at what was lost and destroyed during the unstable years prior to 1949. I'm troubled by using the Cultural Revolution as an excuse not to return the looted goods, particularly since the Cultural Revolution is widely regarded in China as an acknowledged error of judgement. We wouldn't have the right to deny artworks to adults because in their 20s, they let a painting get damaged through lack of care and we don't have the right to say the Chinese don't deserve to have their cultural heritage back because of what happened post Revolution.
The museums who hold the Summer Palace collection are in my view criminal in not returning the treasures. That event, particularly, is one of the most visible instances of colonial ugliness in China and everything seized in it should be treated as ill-gotten goods. I don't see why those objects should be treated any differently than art looted by the Nazis.
(I used to work a great deal in Greece and I still get furious when I think about the so-called Elgin Marbles. I truly believe the British Museum is completely morally bankrupt for refusing to restore the friezes to the Parthenon, and their excuses are sickening. But even the Parthenon marbles have a veneer of legality. There's no such veneer when it comes to the Summer Palace. )
posted by frumiousb at 4:06 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
The intersection of art, politics and capitalism is an extremely weird place. It makes my head hurt. Art should belong to everyone. But it's fragile so it needs special care. Which is expensive. And it's rare and high-status, making it attractive to the people who value those things, who often don't truly appreciate it and keep it to themselves. So it ends up hoarded, or, best case, in a museum where it's available to all who can afford to get to that museum. Which leaves many out. And it is also historically valuable if it's old, but the people who originally had clear rights to it are dust and in the meantime, it may have been sold a hundred times. Countries may no longer exist. The creation of the art itself could have involved horrible crimes.
Ow my head.
posted by emjaybee at 4:17 PM on August 22, 2018
Ow my head.
posted by emjaybee at 4:17 PM on August 22, 2018
My friend's grandfather was a general under Chiang Kai-shek, and during the KMT rout orchestrated the evacuation of many Chinese art treasures to Taiwan. Say what you will, but it saved many of them from destruction during the cultural revolution. As noted upthread, this isn't quite considered theft by the authorities since, in their view, Taiwan is still part of China. (Native Formosans may beg to differ.)
posted by sjswitzer at 4:35 PM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 4:35 PM on August 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
Taiwan and the KMT are a different matter (though you could reasonably question their goals in evacuating the art) which is why it's treated that way by the Chinese government. The Summer Palace OTOH was straightforward looting as a result of the Second Opium War whose express aim was to force the Chinese to fully legalise the opium trade so the British companies could continue to get rich on the backs of an addicted and poor population. By the time of the Second Opium War, opioid addiction was a scourge which undermined all attempts of the Chinese government to modernise. The Summer Palace and everything around it were straight up war crimes. Let's not conflate that with what happened between the KMT and the CCP.
(Note, I'm not any kind of fan of the CCP-- not living in Hong Kong I'm not. But the history around that period is shockingly bad and the idea that the colonial powers get a free pass because Cultural Revolution really pisses me off.)
posted by frumiousb at 4:52 PM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
(Note, I'm not any kind of fan of the CCP-- not living in Hong Kong I'm not. But the history around that period is shockingly bad and the idea that the colonial powers get a free pass because Cultural Revolution really pisses me off.)
posted by frumiousb at 4:52 PM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
frumiousb: I fully agree. I had no intension of equating the two, though I can see how it may have come off that way. Museums full of colonial loot are a tragic legacy that should be remedied.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:02 PM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by sjswitzer at 5:02 PM on August 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Calling the Cultural Revolution, in which thousands of intellectuals (including artists) were forced from their jobs, imprisoned, tortured, or killed, “an error in judgment” is one heck of a euphemism. Much of the heritage that Chinese are excited to see now would not be available, had it not been saved from destruction by “plundering.”
As for repatriation, I’m all for it. By all means the PRC and the oligarchs/billionaires can should get “their” art back...just as as soon as the Beijing government stops censoring, harassing, and imprisoning artists (of all kinds) that is going on as we write these comments.
posted by haiku warrior at 5:03 PM on August 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
As for repatriation, I’m all for it. By all means the PRC and the oligarchs/billionaires can should get “their” art back...just as as soon as the Beijing government stops censoring, harassing, and imprisoning artists (of all kinds) that is going on as we write these comments.
posted by haiku warrior at 5:03 PM on August 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
And leave the artists and temples of Tibet alone.
posted by haiku warrior at 5:13 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by haiku warrior at 5:13 PM on August 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
There is a kind of paternalistic "white man's burden" problem around repatriation: crudely, are these countries really capable of being stewards of their own cultural heritage? The whole issue is fraught because, in some cases, perhaps not. But that is usually because of the chaos that the colonial period wrought.
The idea of preserving these things for the benefit of "humanity" almost seems laudable until you understand how circumscribed this concept of humanity is.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:25 PM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
The idea of preserving these things for the benefit of "humanity" almost seems laudable until you understand how circumscribed this concept of humanity is.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:25 PM on August 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm noticing that the Old Summer Palace was actually constructed by the ethnically-Manchu Qing Dynasty. So was this really a case of one group of conquerors of China stealing from another group of conquerors of China?
In any case, it seems like a good thing that the (apparently mostly Han historical artifacts?) are back in Han hands. I'm a bit curious about how the Tibetan tapestry mentioned in the OP was originally obtained by its Ming dynasty Han owners, though.
posted by XMLicious at 7:36 PM on August 22, 2018
In any case, it seems like a good thing that the (apparently mostly Han historical artifacts?) are back in Han hands. I'm a bit curious about how the Tibetan tapestry mentioned in the OP was originally obtained by its Ming dynasty Han owners, though.
posted by XMLicious at 7:36 PM on August 22, 2018
Comments about the cultural revolution are legitimate but fail to take into account that the many countries that now own the looted artifacts are also responsible for significant destruction themselves (ie: the old summer palace). The fact that these artifacts were protected from the cultural revolution was an accident. The thieves were not intending to preserve Chinese heritage and art for posterity when they looted China - they were intending to showcase their strength and power. The systematic destruction of some cultural artifacts and landmarks versus the looting of others was to accomplish dominance - not to preserve. I think we should remember that.
And, in the spirit of remembering that, it means we recognize that the West are not better owners of these artifacts. They have committed the same crimes of cultural destruction that the Chinese did during the cultural revolution. If they are allowed to own, despite their history of destroying things, so should the Chinese and every other country that has had their cultural heritage pillaged.
posted by cyml at 7:52 PM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
And, in the spirit of remembering that, it means we recognize that the West are not better owners of these artifacts. They have committed the same crimes of cultural destruction that the Chinese did during the cultural revolution. If they are allowed to own, despite their history of destroying things, so should the Chinese and every other country that has had their cultural heritage pillaged.
posted by cyml at 7:52 PM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
Germany burned and destroyed books and art not too long ago, and I don’t hear anyone arguing they should therefore now not be allowed museums.
posted by frumiousb at 10:47 PM on August 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by frumiousb at 10:47 PM on August 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
I know I've made my point, but I also feel like refining it a bit, in light of many of the comments that have been made here. Things like
I'm noticing that the Old Summer Palace was actually constructed by the ethnically-Manchu Qing Dynasty. So was this really a case of one group of conquerors of China stealing from another group of conquerors of China?
And leave the artists and temples of Tibet alone.
The museums who hold the Summer Palace collection are in my view criminal in not returning the treasures. That event, particularly, is one of the most visible instances of colonial ugliness in China and everything seized in it should be treated as ill-gotten goods. I don't see why those objects should be treated any differently than art looted by the Nazis.
Which raises the question - had all this stuff the Chinese are (allegedly) repatriating - had the works remained in China all along, would they have survived the Cultural Revolution? At best they would have wound up, along with so much other first rate stuff, in Taiwan's National Palace Museum, but can we be sure? How much native art does a given country need within its own borders, esp. given the open question of whether they can take care of what they already have (I'm thinking Italy). It's a slippery slope from that to buying black market art and antiquities, but you can see how such thinking factors into peoples' various behaviors. I wish I had a reasonable answer.
Calling the Cultural Revolution, in which thousands of intellectuals (including artists) were forced from their jobs, imprisoned, tortured, or killed, “an error in judgment” is one heck of a euphemism. Much of the heritage that Chinese are excited to see now would not be available, had it not been saved from destruction by “plundering.”
But I think it's important to remember our own white western values are constructed and shouldn't be taken as an assumption or de facto starting point to these discussions.
I am not going to speak on who I am or how I got to my viewpoint, because I don't think it's relevant to this conversation - a cultural heritage belongs to the ancestors of that heritage to do with as they like, and it's our job to support it. I come from such a mixed, modern lineage that it would be a disservice to my ancestors and my contemporaries to try and argue this from a perspective that includes "birthright". If we do want to engage them in good faith, it's kinda on them to do the same. So far, from Beijing and its relevant territories, there has been astoundingly little of that.
I define good faith as what many Western museums have done - preserve it, study it, display it. Share profits where necessary. Move items where necessary. Turn them into public treasures, something that anyone who walks through the museum doors, or even hears about these things and sees pictures on the internet, can respect and understand. Walk into the Forbidden City, as I have, and you understand immediately that some incredible people did some incredible work here. The kind of thing that will never again be surpassed. In that circumstance, under those conditions, things of incredible beauty and majesty were created. Things that are worthy of being documented, remembered, and commemorated for the rest of human history.
And this is the juncture where I found Angkor Wat instructive. In China, the "users" of the Forbidden City (and Old Summer Palace, as it were), are alive and with us today. They are the modern Chinese nation, a nation still struggling with its identity and place in the world. Such is a grand, epic, and deeply involved struggle in which we all have an interest, but it's an abstract and badly defined interest. There certainly are better claims that mine, and I make no claim to the Forbidden City and China's heritage in general except to say that I am human, they were human, and I'd like the world and my children to know that humans can do that. Angkor Wat, on the other hand, was until modern times occupied solely by Buddhist monks who recognized a huge, epic thing where they found it as divine, moved in, and did their best with upkeep. That is why it's not covered in jungle like the Mayan ruins. Nobody else gave a crap until the modern antiquities industry found it! And then what happened? Looting, until the UN and scholars everywhere and the vast majority of Cambodia's people said, "This is a serious problem, let's try to help the monks end this." They did help, and that's why we all know what Angkor Wat is today, and that's why anyone can visit. The resident monks have found a likeminded community in all of us. The Cambodian people have a better claim to that heritage than I do by all rights, but also, I'm human, that's mine too, and everyone involved in this particular "claim" of mine seems to share my opinion - this is something we need to treasure, preserve, study, and show.
Beijing's patriots and the descendants of its pillagers have not shown the same spirit. The colonial wrongs of the past need to be put firmly in the past, so we can stop reliving them in the present. The affront to our morals of the museums that keep past art, and of the people who might rob or covet their exhibits, is not to our sense of justice done for the past, it's to our sense of injustice done now. We don't put children on trial for their parents' crimes for the same reason, and it's the same reason we get angry at clan grudges and Hatfield–McCoy silliness. Enough, the problem is human heritage and preserving it here darnit, and I don't give two shits what humiliations your ancestors endured, or what they might endure from having their ill-gotten gains handed away from your territory's government. I want scholarship and healing, not more stupid ethnic strife. Concerned Cambodians and their Western, Indian, African, South/North American, and Asian counterparts know how to be grown-ups about this matter. Chinese patriots largely do not. European/American museum scholars also largely do not, and I think their ancestors on both sides would be rightly ashamed. They're old trinkets, they carry exactly and only the values we ascribe to them in the present, everyone needs to stop making it worse.
posted by saysthis at 12:10 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm noticing that the Old Summer Palace was actually constructed by the ethnically-Manchu Qing Dynasty. So was this really a case of one group of conquerors of China stealing from another group of conquerors of China?
And leave the artists and temples of Tibet alone.
The museums who hold the Summer Palace collection are in my view criminal in not returning the treasures. That event, particularly, is one of the most visible instances of colonial ugliness in China and everything seized in it should be treated as ill-gotten goods. I don't see why those objects should be treated any differently than art looted by the Nazis.
Which raises the question - had all this stuff the Chinese are (allegedly) repatriating - had the works remained in China all along, would they have survived the Cultural Revolution? At best they would have wound up, along with so much other first rate stuff, in Taiwan's National Palace Museum, but can we be sure? How much native art does a given country need within its own borders, esp. given the open question of whether they can take care of what they already have (I'm thinking Italy). It's a slippery slope from that to buying black market art and antiquities, but you can see how such thinking factors into peoples' various behaviors. I wish I had a reasonable answer.
Calling the Cultural Revolution, in which thousands of intellectuals (including artists) were forced from their jobs, imprisoned, tortured, or killed, “an error in judgment” is one heck of a euphemism. Much of the heritage that Chinese are excited to see now would not be available, had it not been saved from destruction by “plundering.”
But I think it's important to remember our own white western values are constructed and shouldn't be taken as an assumption or de facto starting point to these discussions.
I am not going to speak on who I am or how I got to my viewpoint, because I don't think it's relevant to this conversation - a cultural heritage belongs to the ancestors of that heritage to do with as they like, and it's our job to support it. I come from such a mixed, modern lineage that it would be a disservice to my ancestors and my contemporaries to try and argue this from a perspective that includes "birthright". If we do want to engage them in good faith, it's kinda on them to do the same. So far, from Beijing and its relevant territories, there has been astoundingly little of that.
I define good faith as what many Western museums have done - preserve it, study it, display it. Share profits where necessary. Move items where necessary. Turn them into public treasures, something that anyone who walks through the museum doors, or even hears about these things and sees pictures on the internet, can respect and understand. Walk into the Forbidden City, as I have, and you understand immediately that some incredible people did some incredible work here. The kind of thing that will never again be surpassed. In that circumstance, under those conditions, things of incredible beauty and majesty were created. Things that are worthy of being documented, remembered, and commemorated for the rest of human history.
And this is the juncture where I found Angkor Wat instructive. In China, the "users" of the Forbidden City (and Old Summer Palace, as it were), are alive and with us today. They are the modern Chinese nation, a nation still struggling with its identity and place in the world. Such is a grand, epic, and deeply involved struggle in which we all have an interest, but it's an abstract and badly defined interest. There certainly are better claims that mine, and I make no claim to the Forbidden City and China's heritage in general except to say that I am human, they were human, and I'd like the world and my children to know that humans can do that. Angkor Wat, on the other hand, was until modern times occupied solely by Buddhist monks who recognized a huge, epic thing where they found it as divine, moved in, and did their best with upkeep. That is why it's not covered in jungle like the Mayan ruins. Nobody else gave a crap until the modern antiquities industry found it! And then what happened? Looting, until the UN and scholars everywhere and the vast majority of Cambodia's people said, "This is a serious problem, let's try to help the monks end this." They did help, and that's why we all know what Angkor Wat is today, and that's why anyone can visit. The resident monks have found a likeminded community in all of us. The Cambodian people have a better claim to that heritage than I do by all rights, but also, I'm human, that's mine too, and everyone involved in this particular "claim" of mine seems to share my opinion - this is something we need to treasure, preserve, study, and show.
Beijing's patriots and the descendants of its pillagers have not shown the same spirit. The colonial wrongs of the past need to be put firmly in the past, so we can stop reliving them in the present. The affront to our morals of the museums that keep past art, and of the people who might rob or covet their exhibits, is not to our sense of justice done for the past, it's to our sense of injustice done now. We don't put children on trial for their parents' crimes for the same reason, and it's the same reason we get angry at clan grudges and Hatfield–McCoy silliness. Enough, the problem is human heritage and preserving it here darnit, and I don't give two shits what humiliations your ancestors endured, or what they might endure from having their ill-gotten gains handed away from your territory's government. I want scholarship and healing, not more stupid ethnic strife. Concerned Cambodians and their Western, Indian, African, South/North American, and Asian counterparts know how to be grown-ups about this matter. Chinese patriots largely do not. European/American museum scholars also largely do not, and I think their ancestors on both sides would be rightly ashamed. They're old trinkets, they carry exactly and only the values we ascribe to them in the present, everyone needs to stop making it worse.
posted by saysthis at 12:10 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Here's an idea - ask nicely for your things back. Set up endowments and display loan programs. Focus on preservation, public access, translation and workshops on previous scholarship. Other artsy exchange stuff. I am not part of this world or familiar with it so I don't know how that would all work. Is there a reason smash-and-grab would be preferable to handling priceless antiques responsibly?
Yes, and the reason is that the British Museum could give a fuck that you asked nicely. Look up the Elgin Marbles someday.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 11:36 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yes, and the reason is that the British Museum could give a fuck that you asked nicely. Look up the Elgin Marbles someday.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 11:36 AM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Taiwan and the KMT are a different matter (though you could reasonably question their goals in evacuating the art) which is why it's treated that way by the Chinese government.
I mean, neither the KMT nor the CCP are the Qing emperors, and both could (and do) argue that they are the rightful heirs to the treasures of ancient China.
Although the KMT lost the civil war, the Republic of China was arguably more directly the successor of the Qing, before it was then overthrown by the communists in turn. (As a thought experiment, imagine if the Qing dynasty had continued existing in some form and controlling part of its territory after the 1911 revolution - wouldn't that government have more of a claim over Qing artifacts than the KMT, under those circumstances?)
There is a kind of paternalistic "white man's burden" problem around repatriation: crudely, are these countries really capable of being stewards of their own cultural heritage? The whole issue is fraught because, in some cases, perhaps not.
I don't think this particularly applies to the PRC, but apparently China has a significant problem with theft in its museums through "inside jobs", like the 2015 case of a collection in Guangzhou that was ripped off by its own curator, who stole 140 items and replaced them with fakes, subsequently auctioning off most of them off to private collectors for several million dollars.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 2:00 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I mean, neither the KMT nor the CCP are the Qing emperors, and both could (and do) argue that they are the rightful heirs to the treasures of ancient China.
Although the KMT lost the civil war, the Republic of China was arguably more directly the successor of the Qing, before it was then overthrown by the communists in turn. (As a thought experiment, imagine if the Qing dynasty had continued existing in some form and controlling part of its territory after the 1911 revolution - wouldn't that government have more of a claim over Qing artifacts than the KMT, under those circumstances?)
There is a kind of paternalistic "white man's burden" problem around repatriation: crudely, are these countries really capable of being stewards of their own cultural heritage? The whole issue is fraught because, in some cases, perhaps not.
I don't think this particularly applies to the PRC, but apparently China has a significant problem with theft in its museums through "inside jobs", like the 2015 case of a collection in Guangzhou that was ripped off by its own curator, who stole 140 items and replaced them with fakes, subsequently auctioning off most of them off to private collectors for several million dollars.
"Before the 1980s, most relic thefts were break-in cases: burglars broke into museums to steal items. In the 21st century, as advanced technologies were introduced and large investments were poured into this field, break-in cases committed by invaders have decreased. Most museum thefts are now inside jobs."Finally, it's worth noting that much of the "gift economy" involving senior Chinese officials and business people involves the exchange of Chinese art, rather than suitcases full of cash. While the piece makes a convincing case that the pieces that were stolen by / at the request of the Chinese government, they're also a very valuable form of currency that could be used in an important informal economy. (I'm friendly with a few PRC government officials and I've seen the private collection of one, which was impressive and contained several pieces that any museum would have been happy to acquire.)
posted by chappell, ambrose at 2:00 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Asking nicely isn't how the items were acquired, so one could forgive the thieves for thinking it's not the way to get them back. They already know the answer is "no" for many of the pieces anyway. I don't think their mysterious clients see any downside at all in stealing them; it's not like they care what anybody else thinks about it. Maybe the thieves, or rather their clients, will one day have museum wings in China named after them, complete with tasteful inscriptions and fawning biographies glossing over their criminality. The very idea of it is deeply satisfying to me. At least they didn't burn everything they failed to steal, or kill a bunch of people in the process, which is a step up from when it happened in the other direction.
The colonial wrongs of the past need to be put firmly in the past, so we can stop reliving them in the present.
The past isn't dead, it isn't even past. Until there's a truth and reconciliation commission or something that actually creates a shared understanding of that past and an agreed-upon course of action, any defense of the status quo will always be regarded as not being in good faith by those who consider themselves the victims of those colonial wrongs. Every day that goes by is another one in which the descendants of the looters get to enjoy convenient access to the spoils of war while the descendants of the victims get to obtain passports and fly in to see those spoils in settings that were purpose-built to be monuments to the empires that looted them. Is that not reliving the wrongs of the past in the present? I guess it's more just continuing to live them, since there was no point at which the crime ever ceased to have negative impacts.
posted by hyperbolic at 2:45 PM on August 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
The colonial wrongs of the past need to be put firmly in the past, so we can stop reliving them in the present.
The past isn't dead, it isn't even past. Until there's a truth and reconciliation commission or something that actually creates a shared understanding of that past and an agreed-upon course of action, any defense of the status quo will always be regarded as not being in good faith by those who consider themselves the victims of those colonial wrongs. Every day that goes by is another one in which the descendants of the looters get to enjoy convenient access to the spoils of war while the descendants of the victims get to obtain passports and fly in to see those spoils in settings that were purpose-built to be monuments to the empires that looted them. Is that not reliving the wrongs of the past in the present? I guess it's more just continuing to live them, since there was no point at which the crime ever ceased to have negative impacts.
posted by hyperbolic at 2:45 PM on August 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
Germany was defeated in a world war, and it no longer has an authoritarian government currently censoring and imprisoning artists and dissidents. China does.
posted by haiku warrior at 5:20 PM on August 23, 2018
posted by haiku warrior at 5:20 PM on August 23, 2018
So are you proposing some kind of moral fitness test to get your stolen property back? Which countries do you think would pass that test? I mean, Japan is the darling of the world right now, but their actions in recent memory were savage; they continue to discriminate racially and against women; they've never fully apologized. Should we take their museums away? Which countries strike you as morally pure enough to get their looted artwork back? Clearly sarcastic, but I'm also serious.
posted by frumiousb at 6:49 PM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by frumiousb at 6:49 PM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Because of the things you're mentioning, had mid-20th-century history gone slightly differently Japan would be just as much “China” as the Qing were. Part of this issue makes it seem a bit like the 19th-century Europeans didn't conquer and subjugate China enough, that if only they'd taken the country over as thoroughly as the Manchu or the Mongols they could count as “Chinese” and European billionaires would be qualified to steal art made within the borders of the Empire of China at some point in the past.
I don't know if any of China's billionaires are Uyghur—I'm guessing not—but if there were a Uyghur billionaire, I wonder if she would be eligible to steal Qing art back from the West and receive the same government stonewalling of Western law enforcement, given that the Uyghur have, to my knowledge, only ever been a subject people in China rather than rulers.
The question about moral tests seems appropriate to ask, it's just that in evaluating what's going on here I think we should also be inquiring into what the particular test is which is being failed by Western museums such that billionaires from the current Han hegemony are worthy of re-stealing the stolen Qing treasures.
It's particularly reminding me of Russia arguing that for ethnic sovereignty reasons it's okay to annex Crimea from Ukraine, when as of the same historical era as the destruction of the Qing's Old Summer Palace in Beijing the indigenous people in Crimea were neither Russians nor Ukranians, but descendants of the Crimean Khanate. (Although politically, the region was dominated by the Russian Empire, and if you go far enough back the Crimean Khanate were conquerors too.)
Would the same reasoning that supports the art re-theft support revanchism if China's current government wants to get some more of this territory back, beyond just Tibet?
posted by XMLicious at 10:44 PM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't know if any of China's billionaires are Uyghur—I'm guessing not—but if there were a Uyghur billionaire, I wonder if she would be eligible to steal Qing art back from the West and receive the same government stonewalling of Western law enforcement, given that the Uyghur have, to my knowledge, only ever been a subject people in China rather than rulers.
The question about moral tests seems appropriate to ask, it's just that in evaluating what's going on here I think we should also be inquiring into what the particular test is which is being failed by Western museums such that billionaires from the current Han hegemony are worthy of re-stealing the stolen Qing treasures.
It's particularly reminding me of Russia arguing that for ethnic sovereignty reasons it's okay to annex Crimea from Ukraine, when as of the same historical era as the destruction of the Qing's Old Summer Palace in Beijing the indigenous people in Crimea were neither Russians nor Ukranians, but descendants of the Crimean Khanate. (Although politically, the region was dominated by the Russian Empire, and if you go far enough back the Crimean Khanate were conquerors too.)
Would the same reasoning that supports the art re-theft support revanchism if China's current government wants to get some more of this territory back, beyond just Tibet?
posted by XMLicious at 10:44 PM on August 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Asking nicely isn't how the items were acquired, so one could forgive the thieves for thinking it's not the way to get them back.
So are you proposing some kind of moral fitness test to get your stolen property back?
Personally I'm sympathetic to the general idea that antiquities deserve to be back in the countries that they were stolen from originally.
Where I become uncomfortable with the cheerleading in this specific case is that the Chinese state takes the same rather, er, pragmatic approach to acquiring other things that the Chinese government believes rightfully belong to China, even in contexts where I'm less sympathetic. ("Asking nicely" also isn't how the PRC has taken control of various contested islands in the South China Sea, for example, and "asking nicely" doesn't characterise its attitude to Tibet, or the Special Administrative Regions of HK and Macao, or its border dispute with India, or the status of Taiwan.)
Two wrongs don't make a right. Might doesn't make right. And the coming Chinese hegemony doesn't look like being much more gentle and fun for the rest of the world than American hegemony was last century, or the European empires before that - when these items were originally looted from China, who was the then-underdog.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:20 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
So are you proposing some kind of moral fitness test to get your stolen property back?
Personally I'm sympathetic to the general idea that antiquities deserve to be back in the countries that they were stolen from originally.
Where I become uncomfortable with the cheerleading in this specific case is that the Chinese state takes the same rather, er, pragmatic approach to acquiring other things that the Chinese government believes rightfully belong to China, even in contexts where I'm less sympathetic. ("Asking nicely" also isn't how the PRC has taken control of various contested islands in the South China Sea, for example, and "asking nicely" doesn't characterise its attitude to Tibet, or the Special Administrative Regions of HK and Macao, or its border dispute with India, or the status of Taiwan.)
Two wrongs don't make a right. Might doesn't make right. And the coming Chinese hegemony doesn't look like being much more gentle and fun for the rest of the world than American hegemony was last century, or the European empires before that - when these items were originally looted from China, who was the then-underdog.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:20 PM on August 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
Where I become uncomfortable with the cheerleading in this specific case is that the Chinese state takes the same rather, er, pragmatic approach to acquiring other things that the Chinese government believes rightfully belong to China, even in contexts where I'm less sympathetic. ("Asking nicely" also isn't how the PRC has taken control of various contested islands in the South China Sea, for example, and "asking nicely" doesn't characterise its attitude to Tibet, or the Special Administrative Regions of HK and Macao, or its border dispute with India, or the status of Taiwan.)
Well, yes. There I agree. And we still have no idea who is stealing the artifacts. I can only assume the thieves have at least tacit approval of the CCP, but who knows? I'm just reacting to the implication that somehow the Chinese people don't deserve to have their plundered goods returned because China. I find that strange. All the historical fact gymnastics around Chinese empires and ownership could be literally applied to any country and artifact on earth (see: Parthenon Marbles) and I don't think the Chinese deserve *less* to have the summer palace artifacts return than does any other victim of colonial predation.
(I live in Hong Kong, and I definitely have no rose colored view about the PRC and its rather inclusive view of world ownership. I just get tired of China being painted as a special kind of villain in every case.)
posted by frumiousb at 12:20 AM on August 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Well, yes. There I agree. And we still have no idea who is stealing the artifacts. I can only assume the thieves have at least tacit approval of the CCP, but who knows? I'm just reacting to the implication that somehow the Chinese people don't deserve to have their plundered goods returned because China. I find that strange. All the historical fact gymnastics around Chinese empires and ownership could be literally applied to any country and artifact on earth (see: Parthenon Marbles) and I don't think the Chinese deserve *less* to have the summer palace artifacts return than does any other victim of colonial predation.
(I live in Hong Kong, and I definitely have no rose colored view about the PRC and its rather inclusive view of world ownership. I just get tired of China being painted as a special kind of villain in every case.)
posted by frumiousb at 12:20 AM on August 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think it's right that Chinese artifacts and treasures should be back under Chinese control, I just think that it's especially important for what has happened to be documented and for what it means to be analyzed and remembered because China is now itself also either a great power or a global superpower and it's probably going to be immediately relevant.
It's like, it was unquestionably right for India to get home rule and independence from the British Empire but the circumstances under which it happened and the principles behind those events were immediately relevant when Pakistan separated from India and then Bangladesh separated from Pakistan.
Contrary to your claim that the issues are the same and can be “applied to any country and artifact on earth”, frumiousb, a regionally-dominant or globally-dominant multi-ethnic traditionally-imperialist power which subsequently appropriated quite a bit (if that article is accurate) from the ethnicity of the most recent owners who could be called Chinese, of some artifacts in question, just isn't straightforwardly equivalent to a marginalized indigenous group without political power who are barely holding on to their independent culture and spoken language, the sort of group often involved in cases of repatriation.
The details aren't all just fungible: the way history turned out, so that the Elgin Marbles stolen from the Ottoman Empire should be returned to the Hellenic Republic of Greece, seems uncontroversially appropriate to me. But I can easily imagine an alternate-history situation where returning them to just whoever controls the territory of Greece could be more ambiguous, perhaps equivalent to—for a hypothetical example—returning artifacts from ethnically Armenian polities that existed in the territory of modern Turkey to that country. Or for that matter, if you were returning artifacts from indigenous North American cultures to the ownership of the government of the United States or Canada rather than to indigenous people themselves. China is by no means a special kind of villain on such criteria. (Though here I'm not trying to draw direct equivalence between those hypothetical situations and what's described in the OP, merely disputing that the details are irrelevant fact gymnastics.)
(To be clear, I don't agree with chappell, ambrose that the state of Chinese museums or thefts from them has any importance; the first thing I thought of when I read the bit about a Guangzhou museum robbed by its own curator was an FPP from a few years ago I unfortunately can't find about the apartment of a museum curator in NYC which was found to be furnished with items from the museum the guy worked at, exfiltrated over the course of decades.)
posted by XMLicious at 4:10 AM on August 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's like, it was unquestionably right for India to get home rule and independence from the British Empire but the circumstances under which it happened and the principles behind those events were immediately relevant when Pakistan separated from India and then Bangladesh separated from Pakistan.
Contrary to your claim that the issues are the same and can be “applied to any country and artifact on earth”, frumiousb, a regionally-dominant or globally-dominant multi-ethnic traditionally-imperialist power which subsequently appropriated quite a bit (if that article is accurate) from the ethnicity of the most recent owners who could be called Chinese, of some artifacts in question, just isn't straightforwardly equivalent to a marginalized indigenous group without political power who are barely holding on to their independent culture and spoken language, the sort of group often involved in cases of repatriation.
The details aren't all just fungible: the way history turned out, so that the Elgin Marbles stolen from the Ottoman Empire should be returned to the Hellenic Republic of Greece, seems uncontroversially appropriate to me. But I can easily imagine an alternate-history situation where returning them to just whoever controls the territory of Greece could be more ambiguous, perhaps equivalent to—for a hypothetical example—returning artifacts from ethnically Armenian polities that existed in the territory of modern Turkey to that country. Or for that matter, if you were returning artifacts from indigenous North American cultures to the ownership of the government of the United States or Canada rather than to indigenous people themselves. China is by no means a special kind of villain on such criteria. (Though here I'm not trying to draw direct equivalence between those hypothetical situations and what's described in the OP, merely disputing that the details are irrelevant fact gymnastics.)
(To be clear, I don't agree with chappell, ambrose that the state of Chinese museums or thefts from them has any importance; the first thing I thought of when I read the bit about a Guangzhou museum robbed by its own curator was an FPP from a few years ago I unfortunately can't find about the apartment of a museum curator in NYC which was found to be furnished with items from the museum the guy worked at, exfiltrated over the course of decades.)
posted by XMLicious at 4:10 AM on August 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I was just in Bergen this summer, I wish I had stopped by the museum.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:06 PM on August 24, 2018
posted by Chrysostom at 1:06 PM on August 24, 2018
On the plus side for us, once inside the BM, they have been spared the ravages of Athenian air pollution.)
Politely, that's bullshit. There you go:
(T)he findings of a Greek group of conservationists, who recently inspected the marbles, demonstrated that the very morphology of the sculptures had suffered as a result of the misguided efforts to make them whiter than white. Original carvers' toolmarks had been removed and scratch marks had been left by the unskilled labourers who had used copper chisels and wire brushes to clean the marbles in the 1930s.
Several of the sculptures lost morphological features which constituted their identity and the criteria by which [historians] have been able to attribute them to the art of that period. You can no longer trace those particular features which define the essence of classical sculpture as it is expressed in the architectural sculptures of the Parthenon.
Some further details here.
Even better, how about some choice excerpts from the BM itself?
in 1811 John Henning, the sculptor, intervened when Joseph Nollekens' men were about to start scouring the sculptures with dilute sulphuric acid and water.(28) The practice had been advised by Nollekens himself, who had learned his trade from Bartolomeo Cavaceppi and other restorers of ancient sculpture in Rome, where preserving original surfaces mattered less than achieving a complete object for the Grand Tour market.(29) Henning had been prompted to recall the incident when, in 1845, he had seen the Lycian sculptures, then newly arrived in the British Museum, being washed with acid and water, and had tactfully expressed his disapproval.(30)
However, it was in 1845 that the Museum seems to have become especially sensitive to the surface condition of its sculptures. The Trustees attention was drawn to the fact that the manner of heating the galleries by coal-fired stoves was responsible for a great quantity of dust.(34) There was, besides, another cause, and perhaps a far greater menace, namely the deterioration of the London air by the increase of smoke emissions from coal-fires serving the city's ever growing population. The antiquities, it was observed, including the Elgin Marbles, 'are daily becoming more deteriorated by exposure to the London atmosphere, its smoke and dirt and the alterations of heated and damp air. A single inspection of them and comparison of the present state with that in which they were brought to England, or that of late importations from Athens are quite sufficient to confirm the danger: and from the frequent ablutions which are necessary to clear them of the dirt, but which materially affect the surface of the marble, it is to be appreciated that at the end of a century or less they may be irreparably injured.'(35)
The sculptures were presumably washed by some means in Elgin's possession. They must have been washed again in 1816, when casts were made of them by the sculptor Richard Westmacott,(31) and washed again around 1836-7, when they were moulded for the second and last time.(32)
Faraday examined especially the Erechtheum column and Caryatid and some metopes, but his comments seem to have general application.
The marbles generally were very dirty; some of them appearing as if dirty from a deposit of dust and soot formed upon them, and some of them, as if stained, dingy, and brown. The surface of the marbles is in general rough, as if corroded; only a very few specimens present the polish of finished marble: many have a dead surface; many are honeycombed, in a fine degree, more or less; or have shivered broken surfaces, calculated to hold dirt mechanically.
The examination has made me despair of the possibility of presenting the marbles in the British Museum in that state of whiteness which they originally possessed, or in which, as I am informed, like marbles can be seen in Greece and Italy at the present day. The multitude of people who frequent the galleries, the dust which they raise, the necessary presence of stoves, or other means of warming, which by producing currents in the air, carry the dust and dirt in it to places of rest, namely, the surfaces of the marbles; and the London atmosphere in which dust, smoke, fumes, are always present, and often water in such proportions as to deposit a dew upon the cold marble, or in the dirt upon the marble, are never ceasing sources of injury to the state and appearance of these beautiful remains.
Within ten years the surface of the sculptures had so deteriorated as to cause Hawkins' successor, Charles Newton, to contemplate washing them again. He complained of the 'foulness of the atmosphere which deposits upon them a coat of black, greasy substance, not to be removed except by washing'. The bad air was attributed to both the London atmosphere and to 'the necessity of pouring streams of hot air into imperfectly ventilated rooms.' 'The effect on the sculpture Galleries of these currents of hot air may be clearly traced on the walls and ceilings which are blackened according to the set of the currents.'(45) The sculptures were duly washed, but now Newton recommended that, if the exercise were not to be repeated every five years, it would be better to protect at least the frieze under glass. (46) Newton subsequently reported that the glazing of the frieze was complete and proposed that the pediment sculpture should be similarly protected.(47) This was never fully carried out, although a trial was made with the Helios group of the east pediment. (48).
No real mention of the '30s "cleaning", but enough to burst the tale of enlightened stewardship of the Parthenon marbles.
I've seen the marbles in London and in the Acropolis museum and the presentation in the former is sterile, stuck in an artificially lit hall far from where these works were created. In contrast, looking at the marbles in the Acropolis museum on a sunny day while looking at the Parthenon is a rather different experience.
posted by ersatz at 12:09 AM on August 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
Politely, that's bullshit. There you go:
(T)he findings of a Greek group of conservationists, who recently inspected the marbles, demonstrated that the very morphology of the sculptures had suffered as a result of the misguided efforts to make them whiter than white. Original carvers' toolmarks had been removed and scratch marks had been left by the unskilled labourers who had used copper chisels and wire brushes to clean the marbles in the 1930s.
Several of the sculptures lost morphological features which constituted their identity and the criteria by which [historians] have been able to attribute them to the art of that period. You can no longer trace those particular features which define the essence of classical sculpture as it is expressed in the architectural sculptures of the Parthenon.
Some further details here.
Even better, how about some choice excerpts from the BM itself?
in 1811 John Henning, the sculptor, intervened when Joseph Nollekens' men were about to start scouring the sculptures with dilute sulphuric acid and water.(28) The practice had been advised by Nollekens himself, who had learned his trade from Bartolomeo Cavaceppi and other restorers of ancient sculpture in Rome, where preserving original surfaces mattered less than achieving a complete object for the Grand Tour market.(29) Henning had been prompted to recall the incident when, in 1845, he had seen the Lycian sculptures, then newly arrived in the British Museum, being washed with acid and water, and had tactfully expressed his disapproval.(30)
However, it was in 1845 that the Museum seems to have become especially sensitive to the surface condition of its sculptures. The Trustees attention was drawn to the fact that the manner of heating the galleries by coal-fired stoves was responsible for a great quantity of dust.(34) There was, besides, another cause, and perhaps a far greater menace, namely the deterioration of the London air by the increase of smoke emissions from coal-fires serving the city's ever growing population. The antiquities, it was observed, including the Elgin Marbles, 'are daily becoming more deteriorated by exposure to the London atmosphere, its smoke and dirt and the alterations of heated and damp air. A single inspection of them and comparison of the present state with that in which they were brought to England, or that of late importations from Athens are quite sufficient to confirm the danger: and from the frequent ablutions which are necessary to clear them of the dirt, but which materially affect the surface of the marble, it is to be appreciated that at the end of a century or less they may be irreparably injured.'(35)
The sculptures were presumably washed by some means in Elgin's possession. They must have been washed again in 1816, when casts were made of them by the sculptor Richard Westmacott,(31) and washed again around 1836-7, when they were moulded for the second and last time.(32)
Faraday examined especially the Erechtheum column and Caryatid and some metopes, but his comments seem to have general application.
The marbles generally were very dirty; some of them appearing as if dirty from a deposit of dust and soot formed upon them, and some of them, as if stained, dingy, and brown. The surface of the marbles is in general rough, as if corroded; only a very few specimens present the polish of finished marble: many have a dead surface; many are honeycombed, in a fine degree, more or less; or have shivered broken surfaces, calculated to hold dirt mechanically.
The examination has made me despair of the possibility of presenting the marbles in the British Museum in that state of whiteness which they originally possessed, or in which, as I am informed, like marbles can be seen in Greece and Italy at the present day. The multitude of people who frequent the galleries, the dust which they raise, the necessary presence of stoves, or other means of warming, which by producing currents in the air, carry the dust and dirt in it to places of rest, namely, the surfaces of the marbles; and the London atmosphere in which dust, smoke, fumes, are always present, and often water in such proportions as to deposit a dew upon the cold marble, or in the dirt upon the marble, are never ceasing sources of injury to the state and appearance of these beautiful remains.
Within ten years the surface of the sculptures had so deteriorated as to cause Hawkins' successor, Charles Newton, to contemplate washing them again. He complained of the 'foulness of the atmosphere which deposits upon them a coat of black, greasy substance, not to be removed except by washing'. The bad air was attributed to both the London atmosphere and to 'the necessity of pouring streams of hot air into imperfectly ventilated rooms.' 'The effect on the sculpture Galleries of these currents of hot air may be clearly traced on the walls and ceilings which are blackened according to the set of the currents.'(45) The sculptures were duly washed, but now Newton recommended that, if the exercise were not to be repeated every five years, it would be better to protect at least the frieze under glass. (46) Newton subsequently reported that the glazing of the frieze was complete and proposed that the pediment sculpture should be similarly protected.(47) This was never fully carried out, although a trial was made with the Helios group of the east pediment. (48).
No real mention of the '30s "cleaning", but enough to burst the tale of enlightened stewardship of the Parthenon marbles.
I've seen the marbles in London and in the Acropolis museum and the presentation in the former is sterile, stuck in an artificially lit hall far from where these works were created. In contrast, looking at the marbles in the Acropolis museum on a sunny day while looking at the Parthenon is a rather different experience.
posted by ersatz at 12:09 AM on August 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
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Great, sad story.
posted by Gorgik at 6:35 AM on August 22, 2018 [7 favorites]