High School Girls Say Hell No to Boys Ranking Their Looks
March 29, 2019 8:08 AM Subscribe
High school boys at the Bethesda-Chevy Chase High School in Maryland rated their female classmates by looks and shared the list. The girls found out, and pushed back, first asking the administration to address this example of toxic masculinity. After the administration didn't fully address the issue, the girls showed up in force, and started a bigger discussion and effort to address "boys will be boys" attitude. In the words of one student, “We should be able to learn in an environment without the constant presence of objectification and misogyny.” (Washington Post)
“It was quite intense, being so directly confronted in front of so many people for so long,” he said afterwards to the Washington Post.
So, young man, if you can imagine how women feel, being so directly confronted in front of so many people forso long their whole lives, and really empathize with that, maybe we will make some progress at not being our society’s shittiest self.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:32 AM on March 29, 2019 [59 favorites]
So, young man, if you can imagine how women feel, being so directly confronted in front of so many people for
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:32 AM on March 29, 2019 [59 favorites]
Dozens of senior girls decided to speak up to the school administration and to their male classmates, demanding not only disciplinary action in response to the list but a schoolwide reckoning about the toxic culture that allowed it to happen.
“It was the last straw, for us girls, of this ‘boys will be boys’ culture,” Behbehani said. “We’re the generation that is going to make a change.”
Unsatisfied with the disciplinary action, Schmidt texted about 15 girls she knew, and told them to tell all of their friends to show up at the school’s main office the next day during lunch, “to tell them we feel unsafe in this environment and we are tired of this toxicity,” Schmidt wrote in her text.
About 40 senior girls showed up, packing into an assistant principal’s office as Schmidt read a statement she had written. “We want to know what the school is doing to ensure our safety and security,” Schmidt said. “We should be able to learn in an environment without the constant presence of objectification and misogyny.”
HELL YES. I love these girls so hard. This is culture change in muthafuckin ACTION. I can't applaud this enough.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 8:35 AM on March 29, 2019 [139 favorites]
“It was the last straw, for us girls, of this ‘boys will be boys’ culture,” Behbehani said. “We’re the generation that is going to make a change.”
Unsatisfied with the disciplinary action, Schmidt texted about 15 girls she knew, and told them to tell all of their friends to show up at the school’s main office the next day during lunch, “to tell them we feel unsafe in this environment and we are tired of this toxicity,” Schmidt wrote in her text.
About 40 senior girls showed up, packing into an assistant principal’s office as Schmidt read a statement she had written. “We want to know what the school is doing to ensure our safety and security,” Schmidt said. “We should be able to learn in an environment without the constant presence of objectification and misogyny.”
HELL YES. I love these girls so hard. This is culture change in muthafuckin ACTION. I can't applaud this enough.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 8:35 AM on March 29, 2019 [139 favorites]
GenjiandProust: So, young man, if you can imagine how women feel ... and really empathize with that, maybe we will make some progress at not being our society’s shittiest self.
I think the kid who created the list now Gets It.
I think the kid who created the list now Gets It.
“When you have a culture where it’s just normal to talk about that, I guess making a list about it doesn’t seem like such a terrible thing to do, because you’re just used to discussing it,” he said in an interview. “I recognize that I’m in a position in this world generally where I have privilege. I’m a white guy at a very rich high school. It’s easy for me to lose sight of the consequences of my actions and kind of feel like I’m above something.”posted by hanov3r at 8:39 AM on March 29, 2019 [41 favorites]
While he regrets making the list, he said he was grateful that the girls spoke up. “It’s just a different time and things really do need to change,” he said. “This memory is not going to leave me anytime soon.”
I think the kid who created the list now Gets It.
Well, he talks a good game, yes. I guess time will tell.
I’d kind of like to see this as young women finding they can band together to force the change they need rather than a Very Special Lesson for an over privileged boy.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:55 AM on March 29, 2019 [73 favorites]
Well, he talks a good game, yes. I guess time will tell.
I’d kind of like to see this as young women finding they can band together to force the change they need rather than a Very Special Lesson for an over privileged boy.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:55 AM on March 29, 2019 [73 favorites]
Hoping for a more Bacchae-inspired ending, but, still.
posted by salt grass at 8:58 AM on March 29, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by salt grass at 8:58 AM on March 29, 2019 [15 favorites]
So uh... is there any actual punishment for the boys who participated in this other than the one confrontation? Because the list creator's apology reads like every shitty dude who has ever been confronted and just wants the confrontation to stop so he can get back to dehumanizing women with his bros.
All respect to these girls, though.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:06 AM on March 29, 2019 [27 favorites]
All respect to these girls, though.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:06 AM on March 29, 2019 [27 favorites]
Good on these young women! And I also have to say, it makes me a little sad for my own generation (X), because had this happened when I was in high school (and I bet it did and we didn't even know about it), we would have just shrugged and said, "Eh, that's just the way boys are" and that would have been that. I'm so glad things are changing.
posted by holborne at 9:54 AM on March 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by holborne at 9:54 AM on March 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
This is fantastic and I am so proud of them.
Back in my high school days (early 00s, Midwest suburbia) there was a group of boys one grade lower than me who got the bright idea to implement "Misogyny Mondays" which meant they spouted an endless stream of moldy hyucks like "Get back in the kitchen!" "Make me a sandwich, woman!" and I think they also wouldn't acknowledge if a girl was talking to them.
We were all in theater as an extracurricular and they were the type of loudmouth blustering theater boys who couldn't exist for 30 seconds without trying to get a BIG LAFF, plus a couple quieter hangers on who had figured out theater was where a lot of girls were. To no one's surprise, almost all these boys were single throughout all of high school, though not for lack of trying.
A sophomore theater girl started "Feminist Fridays" in response but it didn't take off quite as well. Eventually the boys got tired of the girls rolling their eyes and hissing "get bent" every time they tried this stunt, and MM petered out. I wish I had done something to help shut it down, but I was just running out the clock until graduation and felt this was all Beneath Me, A Senior so I just rolled my eyes with the rest of the girls. Because what else would we have done? We were all "equal" now, weren't we? It was stupid, but wasn't that the joke? Or so I thought at the time.
Anyways. This gives me hope for the future.
posted by castlebravo at 10:25 AM on March 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Back in my high school days (early 00s, Midwest suburbia) there was a group of boys one grade lower than me who got the bright idea to implement "Misogyny Mondays" which meant they spouted an endless stream of moldy hyucks like "Get back in the kitchen!" "Make me a sandwich, woman!" and I think they also wouldn't acknowledge if a girl was talking to them.
We were all in theater as an extracurricular and they were the type of loudmouth blustering theater boys who couldn't exist for 30 seconds without trying to get a BIG LAFF, plus a couple quieter hangers on who had figured out theater was where a lot of girls were. To no one's surprise, almost all these boys were single throughout all of high school, though not for lack of trying.
A sophomore theater girl started "Feminist Fridays" in response but it didn't take off quite as well. Eventually the boys got tired of the girls rolling their eyes and hissing "get bent" every time they tried this stunt, and MM petered out. I wish I had done something to help shut it down, but I was just running out the clock until graduation and felt this was all Beneath Me, A Senior so I just rolled my eyes with the rest of the girls. Because what else would we have done? We were all "equal" now, weren't we? It was stupid, but wasn't that the joke? Or so I thought at the time.
Anyways. This gives me hope for the future.
posted by castlebravo at 10:25 AM on March 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
So uh... is there any actual punishment for the boys who participated in this other than the one confrontation?
Nope. Sounds like there was just an in school detention (which wouldn’t go on his permanent record, and I’m assuming wasn’t sent in to the colleges he’s been accepted to), the meeting where a bunch of girls did a shit ton of emotional labor and boys just sat there, and a few educational events which I’m sure followed the same pattern.
They’ve learned that if you say the right words, easily cribbed from the internet, and just sit there, you still won’t face any consequences.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:42 AM on March 29, 2019 [27 favorites]
Nope. Sounds like there was just an in school detention (which wouldn’t go on his permanent record, and I’m assuming wasn’t sent in to the colleges he’s been accepted to), the meeting where a bunch of girls did a shit ton of emotional labor and boys just sat there, and a few educational events which I’m sure followed the same pattern.
They’ve learned that if you say the right words, easily cribbed from the internet, and just sit there, you still won’t face any consequences.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:42 AM on March 29, 2019 [27 favorites]
I went to high school in Bethesda (although I didn't go to BCC), and I think it's significant that this happened in the IB program. Bethesda is a very wealthy area, and that goes in hand with a pervasive culture of entitlement. When I was a student, schools in the area placed a high emphasis on academic rankings and the number of students who got into Ivy League schools every year, but it often seemed like they were unconcerned with the students' wellbeing. The kid who made this list is a student in an elite program at an elite school. It doesn't surprise me in the least that his punishment was so mild, because that's simply not where the school's priorities are. Of course they didn't want to impact his permanent record. Of course they asked the girls to take on the effort of disciplining their peer, instead of taking further action themselves. That's not where the school's priorities are. I don't know what his punishment should have been, but it seems like he faced few consequences for having done something so degrading and humiliating.
But I'm glad that these students were able to organize and demand action. I'm glad that's turned into something ongoing. Despite the institution failing them in this case, I hope at least their own actions will be empowering.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 10:55 AM on March 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
But I'm glad that these students were able to organize and demand action. I'm glad that's turned into something ongoing. Despite the institution failing them in this case, I hope at least their own actions will be empowering.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 10:55 AM on March 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
So uh... is there any actual punishment for the boys who participated in this other than the one confrontation?
No of course not. These are rich white kids, basically young Brett Kavanaughs. They will decide on consequences for other people, not experience them personally.
posted by iamnotangry at 11:02 AM on March 29, 2019 [20 favorites]
No of course not. These are rich white kids, basically young Brett Kavanaughs. They will decide on consequences for other people, not experience them personally.
posted by iamnotangry at 11:02 AM on March 29, 2019 [20 favorites]
I'm really cynical about this kind of thing, but that response from the one boy sounds just like every fake ass art dude i ran into from 16 on who got called on his frat-adjacent behavior but knew the correct, vaguely social-justicey phrases and sentence structure to show not only that he supposedly Got It, but turn the unprimed audience on anyone who continued to press him for "having a vendetta" or whatever. I cant help but read the smirk through it. It just says "i'm gonna make this go away, and i know it".
I'm happy this got media attention, and those young women are inspiring, but god did that make me incandescently angry.
posted by emptythought at 11:06 AM on March 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
I'm happy this got media attention, and those young women are inspiring, but god did that make me incandescently angry.
posted by emptythought at 11:06 AM on March 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
And I also have to say, it makes me a little sad for my own generation (X), because had this happened when I was in high school (and I bet it did and we didn't even know about it), we would have just shrugged and said, "Eh, that's just the way boys are" and that would have been that. I'm so glad things are changing.
I look back at by circle of friends, and we were all the alternative, theater and art kids that were all anti-misogyny and we had consent culture down pretty ok, but we were a small pocket of calm in a sea of bullshit.
And in hindsight while we were pretty aware and woke - oh, man, we had such a long way to go.
This post and thread is awesome.
LESS SPOONS.
posted by loquacious at 11:07 AM on March 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
I look back at by circle of friends, and we were all the alternative, theater and art kids that were all anti-misogyny and we had consent culture down pretty ok, but we were a small pocket of calm in a sea of bullshit.
And in hindsight while we were pretty aware and woke - oh, man, we had such a long way to go.
This post and thread is awesome.
LESS SPOONS.
posted by loquacious at 11:07 AM on March 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
1) These girls rule.
2) Perhaps I'm being overly charitable or naive, but it seems like he's taking step toward restorative justice.
"Since that confrontational meeting, a co-ed group of senior students — including the boy who created the list — has been gathering on an almost weekly basis at lunch time to discuss how to prevent this sort of incident from happening again.
I don't know these kids, and maybe he's just being performative, etc etc etc, but it feels like a good thing. Or at least, a better thing than we see in most of these stories.
posted by matrixclown at 11:27 AM on March 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
2) Perhaps I'm being overly charitable or naive, but it seems like he's taking step toward restorative justice.
"Since that confrontational meeting, a co-ed group of senior students — including the boy who created the list — has been gathering on an almost weekly basis at lunch time to discuss how to prevent this sort of incident from happening again.
I don't know these kids, and maybe he's just being performative, etc etc etc, but it feels like a good thing. Or at least, a better thing than we see in most of these stories.
posted by matrixclown at 11:27 AM on March 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
This is great and school kids should definitely not be sharing lists like this as it creates a weird in group/out group vibe and is humiliating. But our whole male culture is this way. Isn’t “hot or not” basically what Tindr is, for example? We teach each other to focus on the most superficial traits of others every day.
posted by freecellwizard at 11:37 AM on March 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 11:37 AM on March 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
“It was the last straw, for us girls, of this ‘boys will be boys’ culture,” Behbehani said. “We’re the generation that is going to make a change.”
We're the generation that is going to make a change.
Hell yes, you are! I am so in love with these girls I am ready to vote them into office right now.
posted by blurker at 11:44 AM on March 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
We're the generation that is going to make a change.
Hell yes, you are! I am so in love with these girls I am ready to vote them into office right now.
posted by blurker at 11:44 AM on March 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
This kind of thing really is a big problem... whether it's your boyfriend sending picture of you to 'show off' to his friends, or being stared at on the bus, the climate of serious objectification that is considered normal is frightening. I'm glad that, in this case at least, and with the #metoo movement, some of this is finally being recognized and (somewhat) addressed. It is just so unhealthy to be judging people this way, for all concerned.
How would men feel if they found out they were being scored and grossly fantasized about or rejected based almost solely on what their face and body looked like? Not great, I bet. I mean, I guess what's comparable is women judging men based on how much money they make (though, women also have this now, to a certain extent), and men thus having complexes about their worth being connected to their income. Either stems from the same shallow, unfair mindset that removes a person's intrinsic value from the equation, and creates this toxic climate of suspicion and competition. But looks are so much... less controllable. And more overt. Neither money nor looks are really 'real,' in the sense of what matters, but rather cultural projections of what 'should' be appealing, that only the insecure buy into. Organically, each party should be looking after themselves financially, and who they find attractive is a private matter with themselves, according to how well they know/like the person in question.
I find our public/private lives are getting very skewed in inappropriate ways lately, and this is one good example. While it's normal to find someone attractive, unless you are dating and in love with them, or are proposing to be, please keep it to yourself, or risk coming across as a creepy, disrespectful jerk. Real care needs to be there, or it is classified as objectification, sorry.
posted by TruthfulCalling at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
How would men feel if they found out they were being scored and grossly fantasized about or rejected based almost solely on what their face and body looked like? Not great, I bet. I mean, I guess what's comparable is women judging men based on how much money they make (though, women also have this now, to a certain extent), and men thus having complexes about their worth being connected to their income. Either stems from the same shallow, unfair mindset that removes a person's intrinsic value from the equation, and creates this toxic climate of suspicion and competition. But looks are so much... less controllable. And more overt. Neither money nor looks are really 'real,' in the sense of what matters, but rather cultural projections of what 'should' be appealing, that only the insecure buy into. Organically, each party should be looking after themselves financially, and who they find attractive is a private matter with themselves, according to how well they know/like the person in question.
I find our public/private lives are getting very skewed in inappropriate ways lately, and this is one good example. While it's normal to find someone attractive, unless you are dating and in love with them, or are proposing to be, please keep it to yourself, or risk coming across as a creepy, disrespectful jerk. Real care needs to be there, or it is classified as objectification, sorry.
posted by TruthfulCalling at 12:23 PM on March 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
So uh... is there any actual punishment for the boys who participated in this other than the one confrontation?
No of course not. These are rich white kids
My experience is as a rich white kid in schools of primarily rich white kids, so people with direct experience, please correct me, but: My guess is that these boys faced more consequences than they would have for an identical action in a poorer school, where teachers and staff usually have to deal with more disciplinary problems.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:24 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
No of course not. These are rich white kids
My experience is as a rich white kid in schools of primarily rich white kids, so people with direct experience, please correct me, but: My guess is that these boys faced more consequences than they would have for an identical action in a poorer school, where teachers and staff usually have to deal with more disciplinary problems.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:24 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
These girls! I’m so proud of them. Maybe there is hope for the future!!!
posted by natasha_k at 12:47 PM on March 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by natasha_k at 12:47 PM on March 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Good job girls! Some of the kids are *definitely* alright.
posted by rmd1023 at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
> I mean, I guess what's comparable is women judging men based on how much money they make (though, women also have this now, to a certain extent), and men thus having complexes about their worth being connected to their income.
What's comparable is how men get judged by other men based on how macho and domineering they are. This kind of objectification is precisely the basis of toxic masculinity. The difference is that men have actions they can take to get scored higher (by becoming more toxic), and this gives the experience a sense of agency that is denied to women. That avenue for agency is what allows the patriarchy to coopt the efforts of low-ranking men rather than alienating them.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:24 PM on March 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
What's comparable is how men get judged by other men based on how macho and domineering they are. This kind of objectification is precisely the basis of toxic masculinity. The difference is that men have actions they can take to get scored higher (by becoming more toxic), and this gives the experience a sense of agency that is denied to women. That avenue for agency is what allows the patriarchy to coopt the efforts of low-ranking men rather than alienating them.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:24 PM on March 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
Ok but this isn't about men
posted by fluttering hellfire at 1:35 PM on March 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 1:35 PM on March 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
Put another way: whereas women are objects of beauty, men are objects of violence.
EDIT: and yes, I agree this isn't about men.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:35 PM on March 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
EDIT: and yes, I agree this isn't about men.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:35 PM on March 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I guess it‘s good they got to speak out and make themselves heard and maybe that means more than an individual guy‘s punishment? But I wish we could have had both.
I can‘t decide whether this was a good outcome or not.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:01 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I can‘t decide whether this was a good outcome or not.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:01 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
So uh... is there any actual punishment for the boys who participated in this other than the one confrontation?
My vote is put their cheery faces on twitter, and every woman with an account can mock them and let people know how big a bunch of losers they are. Maybe the whole incident will follow them through college. One can only hope.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:06 PM on March 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
My vote is put their cheery faces on twitter, and every woman with an account can mock them and let people know how big a bunch of losers they are. Maybe the whole incident will follow them through college. One can only hope.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:06 PM on March 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
Well, there is certainly no hope in the past.
Example: "There's two swingin' girls for every guy, and all you gotta do is just wink your eye!" At least The Beach Boys seemed to like girls.
posted by Oyéah at 2:20 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Example: "There's two swingin' girls for every guy, and all you gotta do is just wink your eye!" At least The Beach Boys seemed to like girls.
posted by Oyéah at 2:20 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I guess what's comparable is women judging men based on how much money they make
Reminder that men literally view women as objects, so no there is nothing comparable to what men do.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:46 PM on March 29, 2019 [26 favorites]
Reminder that men literally view women as objects, so no there is nothing comparable to what men do.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:46 PM on March 29, 2019 [26 favorites]
I read that WaPo article yesterday and was much inspired, and hopeful for the future.
I come here and see there's a lot of anger in the room. I just read this article today. It's about forgiveness, for a much larger crime. I think it provides some perspective.
The boy in Bethesda is trying to make amends and the girls there are trying not to crucify him. I think that is the right approach. This is a story of redemption. This is how things can get better, if we can let them.
It's certainly not anyone's place here to judge them. It makes me a little sad to see people here shitting on them - all of them. If you refuse to forgive him, you are also implicitly denying those girls' choice to do so.
posted by M-x shell at 3:02 PM on March 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
I come here and see there's a lot of anger in the room. I just read this article today. It's about forgiveness, for a much larger crime. I think it provides some perspective.
The boy in Bethesda is trying to make amends and the girls there are trying not to crucify him. I think that is the right approach. This is a story of redemption. This is how things can get better, if we can let them.
It's certainly not anyone's place here to judge them. It makes me a little sad to see people here shitting on them - all of them. If you refuse to forgive him, you are also implicitly denying those girls' choice to do so.
posted by M-x shell at 3:02 PM on March 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
My experience is as a rich white kid in schools of primarily rich white kids, so people with direct experience, please correct me, but: My guess is that these boys faced more consequences than they would have for an identical action in a poorer school
Huh? The data show it is exactly the other way around. More detail here.
And kudos to these girls!!
posted by splitpeasoup at 4:33 PM on March 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Huh? The data show it is exactly the other way around. More detail here.
And kudos to these girls!!
posted by splitpeasoup at 4:33 PM on March 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Back in my high school days (early 00s, Midwest suburbia) there was a group of boys one grade lower than me who got the bright idea to implement "Misogyny Mondays"
I guess I'm just glad the extent of my edgy, bucking-the-PC-system was lobbying for an alternative to the Peace Studies gifted program with a War Studies program focused on Sun Tzu and similar.
posted by pwnguin at 4:37 PM on March 29, 2019
I guess I'm just glad the extent of my edgy, bucking-the-PC-system was lobbying for an alternative to the Peace Studies gifted program with a War Studies program focused on Sun Tzu and similar.
posted by pwnguin at 4:37 PM on March 29, 2019
...the girls there are trying not to crucify him...
It makes me a little sad to see people here shitting on them - all of them.
Sorry your sad, but...
Uh, no not sorry. Those kids needed to be called out, and they needed to be reminded that what they did was immature, stupid, and cruel. They don't need forgiveness, they need to be taught to get their shit together.
Women have been living with and forgiving men their insults, bad behavior, rape, and continuous misogynist crap for CENTURIES. It's time to call them out and hold them to a different standard. If there needs to be punishment and mockery, so be it.
Christian forgiveness is all fine and good, but enough is enough.
If you like, you can even focus on the theme of Christ-like behavior towards others, which is something many many men, even those who call themselves Christians, don't bother to practice towards women or those not in positions of power. Sort of a buffet religion they practice, maybe?
(I won't even go into all the bullshit misogyny that compromises Christian theology.)
How about these picks out of Proverbs?
Condemnation is ready for scoffers, and beating for the backs of fools.
Discipline your son, and he will give you rest; he will give delight to your heart.
The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
posted by BlueHorse at 4:43 PM on March 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
It makes me a little sad to see people here shitting on them - all of them.
Sorry your sad, but...
Uh, no not sorry. Those kids needed to be called out, and they needed to be reminded that what they did was immature, stupid, and cruel. They don't need forgiveness, they need to be taught to get their shit together.
Women have been living with and forgiving men their insults, bad behavior, rape, and continuous misogynist crap for CENTURIES. It's time to call them out and hold them to a different standard. If there needs to be punishment and mockery, so be it.
Christian forgiveness is all fine and good, but enough is enough.
If you like, you can even focus on the theme of Christ-like behavior towards others, which is something many many men, even those who call themselves Christians, don't bother to practice towards women or those not in positions of power. Sort of a buffet religion they practice, maybe?
(I won't even go into all the bullshit misogyny that compromises Christian theology.)
How about these picks out of Proverbs?
Condemnation is ready for scoffers, and beating for the backs of fools.
Discipline your son, and he will give you rest; he will give delight to your heart.
The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
posted by BlueHorse at 4:43 PM on March 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
It's certainly not anyone's place here to judge them.
I would like to see some sort of compelling reason why not.
It makes me a little sad to see people here shitting on them - all of them.
I don't see anyone here shitting on the girls, so I don't know what this "all of them" business is.
If you refuse to forgive him, you are also implicitly denying those girls' choice to do so.
That is not how this works. That's not how any of this works!
I come here and see there's a lot of anger in the room.
In the words of my wise, departed father, no shit, Sherlock.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:08 PM on March 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
I would like to see some sort of compelling reason why not.
It makes me a little sad to see people here shitting on them - all of them.
I don't see anyone here shitting on the girls, so I don't know what this "all of them" business is.
If you refuse to forgive him, you are also implicitly denying those girls' choice to do so.
That is not how this works. That's not how any of this works!
I come here and see there's a lot of anger in the room.
In the words of my wise, departed father, no shit, Sherlock.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:08 PM on March 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
Can we all stop talking about the stupid boy and focus on how great those girls are? This story should be their narrative. They stood up for themselves in an powerful and effective way. As others have alluded to, they refused to tolerate the everyday misogyny that most of us in older generations suffered quietly.
posted by emd3737 at 5:43 PM on March 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 5:43 PM on March 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
I was rated a 4 in 1992. Letting dudes off the hook because they made the right mouth noises is how we're still seeing this shit 27 years later.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:24 PM on March 29, 2019 [22 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:24 PM on March 29, 2019 [22 favorites]
I’m glad these girls are able to band together in a way I frankly never saw growing up- when I was a wee baby Neanderthal other girls were my tormentors not my friends. I was sexually harassed by a very large boy in my grade (6’6”) who apparently was doing it to every girl in our grade or younger and it took me 2 years before I gained the courage to turn him in to the teachers. He threatened to rape me for turning him in, in earshot of a male mutual friend who chose me over him and escorted me to my mother’s car all summer at our summer job. It took another year before I could walk somewhere in SF that was secluded without thinking he’d jump out and rape me. He was suspended briefly for the 2 years harassment and then it was like nothing ever happened, and he was never punished for the rape threat. None of the other victims ever came forward- but I was suddenly more popular among the girls in my grade. This sort of “rating” behavior was something he’d do- he was famous for it.
I will never forgive him.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:34 PM on March 29, 2019 [25 favorites]
I will never forgive him.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:34 PM on March 29, 2019 [25 favorites]
It makes me a little sad to see people here shitting on them - all of them. If you refuse to forgive him, you are also implicitly denying those girls' choice to do so.
I'm a completely separate entity and I have my own moral autonomy, as do they. To imply that having an opinion is somehow taking away other people's abilities to make different choices is a hell of a way to stifle dissent.
And honestly, going by the conduct of the young woman in question, they're more than capable of advocating for their own ability to make choices.
posted by sobell at 7:05 PM on March 29, 2019 [19 favorites]
I'm a completely separate entity and I have my own moral autonomy, as do they. To imply that having an opinion is somehow taking away other people's abilities to make different choices is a hell of a way to stifle dissent.
And honestly, going by the conduct of the young woman in question, they're more than capable of advocating for their own ability to make choices.
posted by sobell at 7:05 PM on March 29, 2019 [19 favorites]
As per Dar Williams: "Teenagers, kick our butts; tell us what the future will be..."
posted by Alterscape at 7:50 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Alterscape at 7:50 PM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I hear what a lot of you are saying, and I would change what I said about the room from anger to pain. There's a lot of pain in this room. In me too, for various other reasons.
But this boy has expressed contrition and none of us can know what's in his heart. Those girls know him and have spoken personally with him. If they forgave him then we can respect their decision and follow their lead. Our pain does not give us the right to overrule them.
posted by M-x shell at 8:38 PM on March 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
But this boy has expressed contrition and none of us can know what's in his heart. Those girls know him and have spoken personally with him. If they forgave him then we can respect their decision and follow their lead. Our pain does not give us the right to overrule them.
posted by M-x shell at 8:38 PM on March 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
M-x-shell- the boy who abused me and every girl in my grade expressed contrition- that's why he wasn't expelled. He still turned around after he "expressed contrition" and threatened to rape me for turning him in. Funny how none of the teachers on staff would believe me about that threat since he "expressed contrition". I'm not saying the boys involved in this aren't worthy of forgiveness, I'm just saying and hoping someone keeps an eye on them, because just because they have "expressed contrition" doesn't mean that boy and the other boy's involved have learned Jack shit. Every person of the female or afab persuasion in this thread has probably dealt with boys and men who have "expressed contrition" and then went on to treat the women in their lives exactly the same way they did before or worse. We have reason to be suspicious of this ok?
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:30 PM on March 29, 2019 [25 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 9:30 PM on March 29, 2019 [25 favorites]
Oh dear lord please. "Permanent record"???
Please put it on their high school record. Nobody will hear about it ever again once they are accepted into college.
This whole public school "permanent record" thing is bullshit. The only permanent record is having a felony which basically ruins your life until you die in the US, sentencing you to limited job opportunities and not being able to participate as a full citizen in the country in which you live for the rest of your life. This kind of supposed permanent record that people have mentioned more than once in this thread has never haunted anyone who survived into adulthood even once, ever. Maybe "you didn't get into your dream university". Blah blah blah.
posted by hippybear at 9:48 PM on March 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
Please put it on their high school record. Nobody will hear about it ever again once they are accepted into college.
This whole public school "permanent record" thing is bullshit. The only permanent record is having a felony which basically ruins your life until you die in the US, sentencing you to limited job opportunities and not being able to participate as a full citizen in the country in which you live for the rest of your life. This kind of supposed permanent record that people have mentioned more than once in this thread has never haunted anyone who survived into adulthood even once, ever. Maybe "you didn't get into your dream university". Blah blah blah.
posted by hippybear at 9:48 PM on March 29, 2019 [13 favorites]
If they forgave him then we can respect their decision and follow their lead. Our pain does not give us the right to overrule them.
What the shit? We're not overruling anything. We don't have power over their forgiveness. This is a super weird take on the whole deal. Do I have to forgive my rapist if the other lady he raped forgives him, lest I "overrule" her? Whatever you're arguing here, you are...not coming across the way you maybe think you are.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:49 PM on March 29, 2019 [19 favorites]
What the shit? We're not overruling anything. We don't have power over their forgiveness. This is a super weird take on the whole deal. Do I have to forgive my rapist if the other lady he raped forgives him, lest I "overrule" her? Whatever you're arguing here, you are...not coming across the way you maybe think you are.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:49 PM on March 29, 2019 [19 favorites]
My point is that these young men need to be held to account, but that the threat of something going on their "permanent record" is not a threat at all. They aren't felons, but they do need to be held to social account, not legal. And these young women are causing this to happen. And I think the way young people in our country are mobilizing on all sorts of issues is thrilling because when I was in high school in the mid-80s, political expression in high school beyond stickers or buttons was basically unimaginable.
posted by hippybear at 10:09 PM on March 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:09 PM on March 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
These days, permanent record sounds a lot like their facebook feed.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:39 AM on March 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:39 AM on March 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
Apropos, seeing as how the original version of facebook was a website where you rated women on their appearance.
posted by hippybear at 6:01 AM on March 30, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:01 AM on March 30, 2019 [8 favorites]
Oh, so that's where the name comes from. I prefer to imagine a Face Book as the place where Arya Stark stores her portfolio.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:53 AM on March 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:53 AM on March 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
At my college the "face book" was called the "dog book," where men could look up women and decide if they were "dogs" or not and make their dating/study group decisions in advance and/or pass judgment on their friends' dating decisions without meeting the woman in question.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:27 AM on March 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:27 AM on March 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Cis men reading about this will chalk it up to "those feminist harpies" because they still view this behavior as a joke and not a legitimate offense.
I was enough of a dude that boys did this in front of me when I was a teenager and I regret not saying anything to this day.
posted by coffeeand at 4:12 PM on March 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
I was enough of a dude that boys did this in front of me when I was a teenager and I regret not saying anything to this day.
posted by coffeeand at 4:12 PM on March 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
My first teaching appointment 1993 at a wealthy catholic college started with a staff day where new teachers were introduced to the school. Because catholic colleges like to hire cheap new teachers, and because teaching is a relatively feminised career, there was always a significant number of new young women joining the staff. It was ‘tradition’ for a contingent of male teachers in their forties and fifties to take sheets of paper into these introductions meetings, and to write a score out of ten rating each new female hire out of ten. Then hold them up for everyone to see, including obviously the woman being rated. Much laughter usually ensued from everyone, the woman being rated either blushing along or looking confused.
No one called them out until the year I joined the staff which happened to coincide with a new principal’s tenure. He watched this ‘tradition’ happen at his first staff meeting in his new school and called them out after he had introduced a few of us. A simple ‘I’d ask the gentlemen in the back row to stop doing whatever it is they’re doing, and see me after this meeting’ and moved on.
The whinging from these guys was incredible. They were obviously told by the principal to knock that shit off and to apologise to each of us individually which was (on reflection) more labour for us women to have to hear them out. Not one said ‘sorry, what I did was wrong’ and all said we needed to understand that this was just a long standing tradition and not personal. Some started with ‘well, now I’m in trouble with the new boss’ like we needed to feel sorry for them.
There was a constant stream of this kind of crap for my first year of teaching and beyond, and fractional pushback got me, and other frustrated women, labelled a ‘dyke’ and ‘man hater’ for years.
Clementine Ford has just published an article about sexual harassment of teachers in schools yesterday which is an interesting adjunct to this FPP.
posted by honey-barbara at 6:26 PM on March 30, 2019 [13 favorites]
No one called them out until the year I joined the staff which happened to coincide with a new principal’s tenure. He watched this ‘tradition’ happen at his first staff meeting in his new school and called them out after he had introduced a few of us. A simple ‘I’d ask the gentlemen in the back row to stop doing whatever it is they’re doing, and see me after this meeting’ and moved on.
The whinging from these guys was incredible. They were obviously told by the principal to knock that shit off and to apologise to each of us individually which was (on reflection) more labour for us women to have to hear them out. Not one said ‘sorry, what I did was wrong’ and all said we needed to understand that this was just a long standing tradition and not personal. Some started with ‘well, now I’m in trouble with the new boss’ like we needed to feel sorry for them.
There was a constant stream of this kind of crap for my first year of teaching and beyond, and fractional pushback got me, and other frustrated women, labelled a ‘dyke’ and ‘man hater’ for years.
Clementine Ford has just published an article about sexual harassment of teachers in schools yesterday which is an interesting adjunct to this FPP.
posted by honey-barbara at 6:26 PM on March 30, 2019 [13 favorites]
This whole public school "permanent record" thing is bullshit. The only permanent record is having a felony which basically ruins your life until you die in the US, sentencing you to limited job opportunities and not being able to participate as a full citizen in the country in which you live for the rest of your life. This kind of supposed permanent record that people have mentioned more than once in this thread has never haunted anyone who survived into adulthood even once, ever. Maybe "you didn't get into your dream university". Blah blah blah.
On the one hand, true, especially the bit about the felony.
On the other hand, we have a new permanent record that ruins your life, and we call it "social media."
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:07 PM on March 30, 2019
On the one hand, true, especially the bit about the felony.
On the other hand, we have a new permanent record that ruins your life, and we call it "social media."
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:07 PM on March 30, 2019
I think it's awesome that the women at this school got together, held the line, and pushed back against the shit. It's warranted and should be celebrated.
At the same time, as someone who was a guy in a public school in the '90s, I remember how it easy it can be to marinate in this crap all the time and feel like its normal, even when the adults tell you its not ok. (Drinking and smoking pot weren't ok, either.)
These guys did shitty stuff. They got called on the carpet for it. Will they actually change? Only time can tell. One way firmly tip the scales against change is to condemn them now as assholes forever, especially by directing an internet rage mob at them. There is a lot of legitimate pain and hate in this thread for old hurts and egregious crimes, but it sure seems like that's being directed in a prejudiced fashion.
As a parting note, I also remember girls making lists of boys who were doable/acceptable/datable. I also remember the small, grey inner death of not even making it onto those lists. It cuts both ways.
posted by cult_url_bias at 1:19 PM on March 31, 2019
At the same time, as someone who was a guy in a public school in the '90s, I remember how it easy it can be to marinate in this crap all the time and feel like its normal, even when the adults tell you its not ok. (Drinking and smoking pot weren't ok, either.)
These guys did shitty stuff. They got called on the carpet for it. Will they actually change? Only time can tell. One way firmly tip the scales against change is to condemn them now as assholes forever, especially by directing an internet rage mob at them. There is a lot of legitimate pain and hate in this thread for old hurts and egregious crimes, but it sure seems like that's being directed in a prejudiced fashion.
As a parting note, I also remember girls making lists of boys who were doable/acceptable/datable. I also remember the small, grey inner death of not even making it onto those lists. It cuts both ways.
posted by cult_url_bias at 1:19 PM on March 31, 2019
As another guy who was in a public school in the 90s: if women can constantly get raked over the coals by internet rage mobs for doing things like having opinions about video games online, and yet not become mass murderers whining about how they were mistreated in high school or mistreated online, I don't think the thing tipping the scales here is what you're declaring it to be.
But if women discussing their experiences gets counted as “directing an internet rage mob” then that seems like exactly the sort of hyperbole that coddles aggrieved assholes and enables a self-image of being terribly oppressed and victimized, when really they're just experiencing the same sort of treatment non-cis-white-males receive regularly.
posted by XMLicious at 3:18 PM on March 31, 2019 [14 favorites]
But if women discussing their experiences gets counted as “directing an internet rage mob” then that seems like exactly the sort of hyperbole that coddles aggrieved assholes and enables a self-image of being terribly oppressed and victimized, when really they're just experiencing the same sort of treatment non-cis-white-males receive regularly.
posted by XMLicious at 3:18 PM on March 31, 2019 [14 favorites]
As a parting note, I also remember girls making lists of boys who were doable/acceptable/datable. I also remember the small, grey inner death of not even making it onto those lists. It cuts both ways.
posted by cult_url_bias at 4:19 PM on March 31 [+] [!]
No, it really doesn't.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:43 PM on April 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by cult_url_bias at 4:19 PM on March 31 [+] [!]
No, it really doesn't.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:43 PM on April 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
I also remember the small, grey inner death of not even making it onto those lists.
It's worth noting that while in this case nothing escalated to violence, women who reject men have occasionally faced large, violent, actual deaths. Not really the same, my dude.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:58 PM on April 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
It's worth noting that while in this case nothing escalated to violence, women who reject men have occasionally faced large, violent, actual deaths. Not really the same, my dude.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:58 PM on April 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
As a parting note, I also remember girls making lists of boys who were doable/acceptable/datable. I also remember the small, grey inner death of not even making it onto those lists. It cuts both ways.
I guess I should be impressed that it took around 50 comments for someone to get around to this one, but I'm actually not.
posted by holborne at 2:11 PM on April 2, 2019 [6 favorites]
I guess I should be impressed that it took around 50 comments for someone to get around to this one, but I'm actually not.
posted by holborne at 2:11 PM on April 2, 2019 [6 favorites]
These guys did shitty stuff. They got called on the carpet for it. Will they actually change? Only time can tell.
Using prior data from the past 30 years, I can tell you that, without serious consequences, they will not change. It is up to current society to make a stand here. I cannot wait another 30 years to see if these boys will finally be the ones who become reasonable human beings and not rapey Supreme Court Justices.
posted by blurker at 11:25 AM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Using prior data from the past 30 years, I can tell you that, without serious consequences, they will not change. It is up to current society to make a stand here. I cannot wait another 30 years to see if these boys will finally be the ones who become reasonable human beings and not rapey Supreme Court Justices.
posted by blurker at 11:25 AM on April 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
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posted by filthy light thief at 8:09 AM on March 29, 2019 [1 favorite]