This is what patriotism looks like
August 26, 2019 12:09 PM Subscribe
In the wake of the arrest of Patriot Prayer leader Joey Gibson and some of his associates in connection with a fight outside of a Portland bar on May Day, a video surfaced showing Gibson and others planning the attack.
The video was captured by a D.I.Y. undercover operative who joined the Patriot Prayer movement to report on their activities.
“I think every person should try to infiltrate these groups, if they’re in the position to do so," he said.
he a nazi
posted by entropicamericana at 12:17 PM on August 26, 2019 [85 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 12:17 PM on August 26, 2019 [85 favorites]
This guy needs a friggin’ award.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 12:18 PM on August 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Matt Oneiros at 12:18 PM on August 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
Andy Ngo Is the Most Dangerous Grifter In America
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 PM on August 26, 2019 [30 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 PM on August 26, 2019 [30 favorites]
From the article:
he a nazi
Yeah, that's the shorter and more direct description.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:18 PM on August 26, 2019 [32 favorites]
Another person he includes in the “grifter” category: Andy Ngo, a conservative writer who’s built a Twitter persona around filming fights between antifa and right-wing extremists (that, and trying to convince people that hate crime allegations raised by LGBTQ+ Portlanders are simply “hoaxes”)."He" being "Ben," not the real name of the undercover left-of-center Democrat who documented the Patriot Prayer group, who said
“When I joined the military, I made an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic,” says Ben. “There’s no expiration date on that oath. I want to live my ideals.”
he a nazi
Yeah, that's the shorter and more direct description.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:18 PM on August 26, 2019 [32 favorites]
Smash rooms are all the rage right now, pay fifty bucks and take a baseball bat to an old TV, I have no interest in them. But, if you ran a punch a Nazi in the face room, I'd gladly pony up fifty bucks.
posted by Keith Talent at 12:30 PM on August 26, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by Keith Talent at 12:30 PM on August 26, 2019 [16 favorites]
I am very concerned for this gentleman's safety once his identity becomes known. He's doing the Lord's work, though. A true hero.
posted by vverse23 at 12:44 PM on August 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
posted by vverse23 at 12:44 PM on August 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
Keith Talent, would you need a real Nazi, or would a simulated Nazi do the job?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:44 PM on August 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:44 PM on August 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
Wearing a hat with a label that read “what goes around comes around” and a t-shirt with Bible verse “John 3:16”
For God so loved the world, he swore to crucify everyone on earth in revenge for his son.
posted by benzenedream at 12:45 PM on August 26, 2019 [39 favorites]
For God so loved the world, he swore to crucify everyone on earth in revenge for his son.
posted by benzenedream at 12:45 PM on August 26, 2019 [39 favorites]
And just a couple weeks ago we were getting lectured by the radical centrists about how we shouldn't celebrate Ngo faking brain damage from a milkshake and how Quillette was Serious Journalism instead of a Nazi mouthpiece.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:47 PM on August 26, 2019 [60 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:47 PM on August 26, 2019 [60 favorites]
what. WHAT. An hour? “Officers with the Portland Police Bureau (PPB) didn’t arrive on the scene for an hour.”
posted by lemon_icing at 12:54 PM on August 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by lemon_icing at 12:54 PM on August 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
"Ben" is not the first military veteran to stand in the way of fascism in Portland. One of the victims of the Islamophobic MAX attack was a U.S. Army veteran.
posted by chrchr at 12:57 PM on August 26, 2019 [27 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 12:57 PM on August 26, 2019 [27 favorites]
Another person he includes in the “grifter” category: Andy Ngo, a conservative writer who’s built a Twitter persona around filming fights between antifa and right-wing extremists (that, and trying to convince people that hate crime allegations raised by LGBTQ+ Portlanders are simply “hoaxes”).More precisely, Ngo edits films of fights and then lies about their contents anyway (e.g., "Antifa attacks bus with hammer", which turned out to be "Antifa disarms hammer-swinging Nazi bus rider, then throws it back at him").
posted by Etrigan at 1:00 PM on August 26, 2019 [43 favorites]
Ben—not his real name as he wishes to remain anonymous a little longer—is a tall, 30-something man with a reddish-blonde beard and pale skin. He’s easy to spot in a crowd. It doesn’t hurt that he always wears the same shirt to rallies: a red tee emblazoned with the Marvel Comics anti-hero, Deadpool.
Wow good thing you used a fake name they'll never smoke him out now.
posted by schoolgirl report at 1:09 PM on August 26, 2019 [108 favorites]
Wow good thing you used a fake name they'll never smoke him out now.
posted by schoolgirl report at 1:09 PM on August 26, 2019 [108 favorites]
And just a couple weeks ago we were getting lectured by the radical centrists about how we shouldn't celebrate Ngo faking brain damage from a milkshake
You are being disingenuous. The video clearly shows Ngo being punched in the face and kicked by antifa activists.
That kind of gratuitous violence does not help the cause.
posted by JackFlash at 1:14 PM on August 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
You are being disingenuous. The video clearly shows Ngo being punched in the face and kicked by antifa activists.
That kind of gratuitous violence does not help the cause.
posted by JackFlash at 1:14 PM on August 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
punching and kicking nazis is cool with me
posted by lazaruslong at 1:19 PM on August 26, 2019 [97 favorites]
posted by lazaruslong at 1:19 PM on August 26, 2019 [97 favorites]
And just a couple weeks ago we were getting lectured by the radical centrists about how we shouldn't celebrate Ngo faking brain damage from a milkshake
You are being disingenuous. The video clearly shows Ngo being punched in the face and kicked by antifa activists.
Is it disingenuous to point out that Ngo said, "The most serious injury to me was my brain in the course of the mob beating, so going forward I will be having various forms of neurophysical therapy and speech therapy to address some of the neurological challenges that I’ll be having." barely three weeks before running around another protest with his camera?
posted by Etrigan at 1:24 PM on August 26, 2019 [42 favorites]
You are being disingenuous. The video clearly shows Ngo being punched in the face and kicked by antifa activists.
Is it disingenuous to point out that Ngo said, "The most serious injury to me was my brain in the course of the mob beating, so going forward I will be having various forms of neurophysical therapy and speech therapy to address some of the neurological challenges that I’ll be having." barely three weeks before running around another protest with his camera?
posted by Etrigan at 1:24 PM on August 26, 2019 [42 favorites]
I am not disputing Ngo claims about brain damage. We have no way of verifying or disproving it. What we can dispute is that the attack was merely a milkshake, as described above. As anyone with their own two eyes can see, it was a violent physical attack involving punches to the face and kicking.
If you want to argue that physical violence is justified, go right ahead. Just don't try to gaslight people by saying it was just a milkshake.
posted by JackFlash at 1:32 PM on August 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
If you want to argue that physical violence is justified, go right ahead. Just don't try to gaslight people by saying it was just a milkshake.
posted by JackFlash at 1:32 PM on August 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
That kind of gratuitous violence does not help the cause.
I promise you that letting nazis roam around unopposed, freely intimidating (or worse) non-nazis and getting to feel strong and powerful as they do so, hurts any and every cause worth caring about a great deal more than taking any action that demonstrates to those nazis (and to whatever utterly craven, spineless people are managing to somehow sit on the fence between nazis and non-nazis) that the road they're on just leads to an ass-kicking. Probably about 80% of the allure of fascism is getting to feel strong and powerful; that is by far their most important recruiting tool and taking it away does a lot more good than worrying about "optics" or whatever.
You need to understand that fascists literally only care about violence. They will not be swayed with your words, or your song-and-dance-routines, or whatever, because their ideology, simplified down to three words, is essentially just: "Might Makes Right". Mockery works on fascists only to the extent that it undercuts their feeling of being powerful, their feeling that they are threatening to others. Showing up in greater numbers works on them only to the extent that vastly outnumbering them carries with it an implicit threat of overpowering them in an open conflict. But it's all variations on the same point: the only way they understand the world is in terms of physical might. This is why the most straightforward way to counteract them in a way that they will actually understand and respond to is through actual application of might: not because you believe in the use of violence, but because they only believe in the use of violence.
posted by mstokes650 at 1:36 PM on August 26, 2019 [179 favorites]
I promise you that letting nazis roam around unopposed, freely intimidating (or worse) non-nazis and getting to feel strong and powerful as they do so, hurts any and every cause worth caring about a great deal more than taking any action that demonstrates to those nazis (and to whatever utterly craven, spineless people are managing to somehow sit on the fence between nazis and non-nazis) that the road they're on just leads to an ass-kicking. Probably about 80% of the allure of fascism is getting to feel strong and powerful; that is by far their most important recruiting tool and taking it away does a lot more good than worrying about "optics" or whatever.
You need to understand that fascists literally only care about violence. They will not be swayed with your words, or your song-and-dance-routines, or whatever, because their ideology, simplified down to three words, is essentially just: "Might Makes Right". Mockery works on fascists only to the extent that it undercuts their feeling of being powerful, their feeling that they are threatening to others. Showing up in greater numbers works on them only to the extent that vastly outnumbering them carries with it an implicit threat of overpowering them in an open conflict. But it's all variations on the same point: the only way they understand the world is in terms of physical might. This is why the most straightforward way to counteract them in a way that they will actually understand and respond to is through actual application of might: not because you believe in the use of violence, but because they only believe in the use of violence.
posted by mstokes650 at 1:36 PM on August 26, 2019 [179 favorites]
This is why the most straightforward way to counteract them in a way that they will actually understand and respond to is through actual application of might: not because you believe in the use of violence, but because they only believe in the use of violence.
e.g. the Allies didn't talk the Axis out of being fascists.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:38 PM on August 26, 2019 [59 favorites]
e.g. the Allies didn't talk the Axis out of being fascists.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:38 PM on August 26, 2019 [59 favorites]
Nazis will be beaten with fists, not facts
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:50 PM on August 26, 2019 [35 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:50 PM on August 26, 2019 [35 favorites]
And there is no evidence that Ngo's brain damage did not long predate the antifa attack.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:56 PM on August 26, 2019 [43 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:56 PM on August 26, 2019 [43 favorites]
I think giving them the impression they've been comprehensively infiltrated is probably the right way to go. With any luck they'll start killing each other, and no one else has to take the karmic hit or do the jail time.
posted by Grangousier at 2:00 PM on August 26, 2019 [34 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 2:00 PM on August 26, 2019 [34 favorites]
We can only hope. That's the thing about fascists, the pyramid always has to get narrower.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:12 PM on August 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:12 PM on August 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
"Ben—not his real name, as he wishes to remain anonymous a little longer—is a tall, 30-something man with a reddish-blonde beard and pale skin. He’s easy to spot in a crowd. It doesn’t hurt that he always wears the same shirt to rallies: a red tee emblazoned with the Marvel Comics antihero Deadpool."
Good that they're not identifying him.
posted by megatherium at 2:12 PM on August 26, 2019 [10 favorites]
Good that they're not identifying him.
posted by megatherium at 2:12 PM on August 26, 2019 [10 favorites]
I thought that too, when I read it - but later on the article describes him running livestreams where he admits he's undercover to anyone who's watching. I don't think the article is really putting him in any additional danger.
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 2:21 PM on August 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 2:21 PM on August 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
Good that they're not identifying him.
You know, what stands out in that description to me are a whole bunch of clearly marked, highly visible identifying traits that are pretty fucking easy to change on short notice.
Shave the beard, put on a different t-shirt, and who the hell is going to ID this guy? Dye your hair, maybe, if you're really freaked out. Oooh, a tall 30-something white guy, that's so identifiable, and if he can set a cat among the pigeons that he might have re-infiltrated those groups, he can inflame fighting among the local Patriot Prayer set--bet that tall 30-something white guys are a dime a dozen over there. That's a very recognizable description that is surprisingly difficult to nail down to one specific guy if he decides to stop being deliberately identifiable.
Not to mention that dudes that age in Deadpool shirts are, aha, something of a cliche in nerd circles. I must have seen twenty men fitting a similar description at various marches and rallies in the Austin area. The beard is probably the most identifiable trait, and again it's real easy to shave that quick.
posted by sciatrix at 2:23 PM on August 26, 2019 [28 favorites]
You know, what stands out in that description to me are a whole bunch of clearly marked, highly visible identifying traits that are pretty fucking easy to change on short notice.
Shave the beard, put on a different t-shirt, and who the hell is going to ID this guy? Dye your hair, maybe, if you're really freaked out. Oooh, a tall 30-something white guy, that's so identifiable, and if he can set a cat among the pigeons that he might have re-infiltrated those groups, he can inflame fighting among the local Patriot Prayer set--bet that tall 30-something white guys are a dime a dozen over there. That's a very recognizable description that is surprisingly difficult to nail down to one specific guy if he decides to stop being deliberately identifiable.
Not to mention that dudes that age in Deadpool shirts are, aha, something of a cliche in nerd circles. I must have seen twenty men fitting a similar description at various marches and rallies in the Austin area. The beard is probably the most identifiable trait, and again it's real easy to shave that quick.
posted by sciatrix at 2:23 PM on August 26, 2019 [28 favorites]
Also, if the guy's like me, his beard is reddish blonde but his hair is brown. If that's the case, that description could be deliberately crafted to make you think of a ginger when he's not one.
posted by Caduceus at 2:32 PM on August 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Caduceus at 2:32 PM on August 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
The video in the OP shows the guy's face already, which is more clearly identifying than any of the details published so far. I also don't think the disclosure is giving anyone much extra ammunition and his identity will be public once court proceedings start anyways. The guy seems smart enough that whatever precautions he was planning to take once his identity was public probably don't have a specific start date or anything.
posted by chrominance at 2:33 PM on August 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by chrominance at 2:33 PM on August 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
Even if the journalist is The Intercept-level incompetent at protecting the identity of a source for a story, his cover will be completely blown very shortly anyway - per the article: "in a matter of weeks, Ben’s long-hidden identity will be made public, meaning his days of being undercover with the group have come to an end. Video footage shot by this left-of-center Democrat will soon be used in court against longtime members of Patriot Prayer—including its leader, Joey Gibson." (emph. add.)
It seems a lot like he just doesn't want his name revealed before the court case - which is fair enough. Like sciatrix says, he could well have changed how he looks for his own safety but be keen, for as long as he can, to keep his real name out of the picture until it can't be avoided.
I rather suspect the - evidently sympathetic - journalist will have discussed with "Ben" what he could/could not write towards identifying him. I could be wrong but that was my first thought...
Anyway, yay Ben!
posted by deeker at 2:36 PM on August 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
It seems a lot like he just doesn't want his name revealed before the court case - which is fair enough. Like sciatrix says, he could well have changed how he looks for his own safety but be keen, for as long as he can, to keep his real name out of the picture until it can't be avoided.
I rather suspect the - evidently sympathetic - journalist will have discussed with "Ben" what he could/could not write towards identifying him. I could be wrong but that was my first thought...
Anyway, yay Ben!
posted by deeker at 2:36 PM on August 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
You are being disingenuous. The video clearly shows Ngo being punched in the face and kicked by antifa activists.
That kind of gratuitous violence does not help the cause.
Fuck Andy Ngo.
posted by so fucking future at 2:38 PM on August 26, 2019 [29 favorites]
That kind of gratuitous violence does not help the cause.
Fuck Andy Ngo.
posted by so fucking future at 2:38 PM on August 26, 2019 [29 favorites]
The extensive deprogramming groups out there that address white supremacists and deprogrammed white supremacists themselves will point out that successful deprogramming requires a lot of talking and connection and decidedly not violence. The majority of followers of extremist ideologies, including white supremacy, need the same thing, which is a member of the opposition reaching out and dialoguing in an excruciatingly patient manner. It requires a great deal of emotional labor and is not as sexy as punching someone in the face, but it doesn't drive one's enemies further into the arms of their leaders--whose whole DEAL depends on their followers believing they are under attack. Punching Nazis feels good but let's not fool ourselves into believing it addresses the actual problem.
posted by Anonymous at 2:39 PM on August 26, 2019
posted by Anonymous at 2:39 PM on August 26, 2019
Threats and fighting words are not protected speech. Nazism is a threat -- a threat of violence and genocide that is only in forbearance until they achieve power.
Threats are not protected speech. Victims of threats have the right to resort to violence to protect themselves. Punching a Nazi is not only OK, it is self-defense and defense of our republic. It is un-American to tolerate Nazis, and we (the grand collective "we") should be ashamed for allowing ourselves to be hoodwinked by the false notion that even threats are protected by the first amendment, because they're not.
posted by tclark at 2:40 PM on August 26, 2019 [44 favorites]
Threats are not protected speech. Victims of threats have the right to resort to violence to protect themselves. Punching a Nazi is not only OK, it is self-defense and defense of our republic. It is un-American to tolerate Nazis, and we (the grand collective "we") should be ashamed for allowing ourselves to be hoodwinked by the false notion that even threats are protected by the first amendment, because they're not.
posted by tclark at 2:40 PM on August 26, 2019 [44 favorites]
Anyway this guy infiltrating these groups is a hero and I hope to God those extremely specific personal details are made up.
posted by Anonymous at 2:40 PM on August 26, 2019
posted by Anonymous at 2:40 PM on August 26, 2019
I don’t think anyone expects to de-Nazify anyone through violence. I think they expect it to act as a brake on the Overton window.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:47 PM on August 26, 2019 [85 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 2:47 PM on August 26, 2019 [85 favorites]
successful deprogramming requires a lot of talking and connection and decidedly not violence
The assumption is that deprogramming is the highest priority here. In circumstances in which fascists are few and have few connections to the power structure, that may be the appropriate assumption. Those are not the circumstances we are in right now. In the end, I don't give a shit whether these people ever get their humanity back. I want them not driving cars into crowds.
(Which is not to say I endorse indiscriminate violence, which has all kinds of ways it can go badly wrong. But to say that "Punching Nazis feels good but let's not fool ourselves into believing it addresses the actual problem" shows that you think the actual problem here is white boys having wrong beliefs that they need to be coaxed out with the least possible pain to them, when the actual problem is whether they're successfully out there exercising power.)
posted by praemunire at 2:52 PM on August 26, 2019 [90 favorites]
The assumption is that deprogramming is the highest priority here. In circumstances in which fascists are few and have few connections to the power structure, that may be the appropriate assumption. Those are not the circumstances we are in right now. In the end, I don't give a shit whether these people ever get their humanity back. I want them not driving cars into crowds.
(Which is not to say I endorse indiscriminate violence, which has all kinds of ways it can go badly wrong. But to say that "Punching Nazis feels good but let's not fool ourselves into believing it addresses the actual problem" shows that you think the actual problem here is white boys having wrong beliefs that they need to be coaxed out with the least possible pain to them, when the actual problem is whether they're successfully out there exercising power.)
posted by praemunire at 2:52 PM on August 26, 2019 [90 favorites]
I'm a mused (a-musing) by the juxtapostion of gratuitous and violence in the context of civil conflict. It's given me something to ponder while I do a little workbench project.
posted by rustipi at 3:00 PM on August 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by rustipi at 3:00 PM on August 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
Well done "Ben"!
Going undercover in the opposition has a long history, 20+ years ago when we were doing clinic defense in the Bay Area we had people inside Operation Rescue, the best part was that once OR figured that out it really limited their planning, paranoia kicked in, they couldn't communicate to their own people what they were doing until just before they did it.
posted by mbo at 3:09 PM on August 26, 2019 [25 favorites]
Going undercover in the opposition has a long history, 20+ years ago when we were doing clinic defense in the Bay Area we had people inside Operation Rescue, the best part was that once OR figured that out it really limited their planning, paranoia kicked in, they couldn't communicate to their own people what they were doing until just before they did it.
posted by mbo at 3:09 PM on August 26, 2019 [25 favorites]
This is why the most straightforward way to counteract them in a way that they will actually understand and respond to is through actual application of might: not because you believe in the use of violence, but because they only believe in the use of violence.
Indeed. We should never forget the Battle of Cable Street, which more or less stamped out the rise of fascism in Britain in the 1930s.
posted by un petit cadeau at 3:12 PM on August 26, 2019 [42 favorites]
Indeed. We should never forget the Battle of Cable Street, which more or less stamped out the rise of fascism in Britain in the 1930s.
posted by un petit cadeau at 3:12 PM on August 26, 2019 [42 favorites]
The description sounds like Robert Evans, the fellow from the Behind the Bastards podcast. He's just wrapped up his seven part podcast on the rise of right wing extremism The War on Everyone. He's done this kind of undercover work before with the proud boys.
Check out the podcast, it covers a lot of the background on these assholes.
posted by adept256 at 3:18 PM on August 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
Check out the podcast, it covers a lot of the background on these assholes.
posted by adept256 at 3:18 PM on August 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
I don't give a shit whether these people ever get their humanity back.
Ok, yes. I feel this. But maybe we should try to overcome that feeling. For ourselves, not just them.
I've actually taken a new tact recently on (yes it's terrible)Facebook. I don't reply in anger to trolls/trumpskies anymore with my righteous facts. I just remind other people to ignore them, because they hate that the most. Or I say something in a bless-your-heart sort of way. Because I'd rather be like Saffiyah Khan (second photo) and these other women. (For some reason I always think of that photo, so I just went to look it up and was reminded of all those other ones! So great!)
(Ok sorry for this long reaction to just one small point of your comment, and which isn't exactly on topic with the OP.)
posted by Glinn at 3:23 PM on August 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
Ok, yes. I feel this. But maybe we should try to overcome that feeling. For ourselves, not just them.
I've actually taken a new tact recently on (yes it's terrible)Facebook. I don't reply in anger to trolls/trumpskies anymore with my righteous facts. I just remind other people to ignore them, because they hate that the most. Or I say something in a bless-your-heart sort of way. Because I'd rather be like Saffiyah Khan (second photo) and these other women. (For some reason I always think of that photo, so I just went to look it up and was reminded of all those other ones! So great!)
(Ok sorry for this long reaction to just one small point of your comment, and which isn't exactly on topic with the OP.)
posted by Glinn at 3:23 PM on August 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
I doubt it was Robert Evans- the fash already know and hate him, and 8chan's issued death threats at him. He'd have a hard time not getting made.
The extensive deprogramming groups out there that address white supremacists and deprogrammed white supremacists themselves will point out that successful deprogramming requires a lot of talking and connection and decidedly not violence. The majority of followers of extremist ideologies, including white supremacy, need the same thing, which is a member of the opposition reaching out and dialoguing in an excruciatingly patient manner. It requires a great deal of emotional labor and is not as sexy as punching someone in the face, but it doesn't drive one's enemies further into the arms of their leaders--whose whole DEAL depends on their followers believing they are under attack. Punching Nazis feels good but let's not fool ourselves into believing it addresses the actual problem.
You're talking about dozens or hundreds of hours of patient, empathetic work that has to be done while the individual you're trying to deradicalize is doing whatever Nazi shit they're feeling, and that's all for the bare possibility that maybe, just maybe, this is one of them that's open to being deradicalized and you're the person whose personal key fits in their lock. This doesn't scale at al; and it's probably doomed in most cases. Every one of these dudes who can be brought back from hell is a victory, sure, but it's an immense time and effort, drawn from a very finite well, to maybe accomplish a few victories that maybe won't be undone by backsliding. If you can drag people out of fascism, great. But if you can't, then you're left with a lot of people who've decided that might makes right and who are devoted to the ugly pleasure of dominating and hurting people for personal aggrandizement and validation.
And those people who've rejected empathy and the humanity of others, all you can really do is contain them and limit the harm they can do to others. Sometimes that means making it clear that if you do fascist shit, your boss and family will find out. Sometimes that means taking down the spaces they use to organize and radicalize people. And sometimes, when they're out for blood, it means establishing that fascist violence will be punished in kind. It's ugly and it sucks, but it's a sad necessity.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:29 PM on August 26, 2019 [50 favorites]
The extensive deprogramming groups out there that address white supremacists and deprogrammed white supremacists themselves will point out that successful deprogramming requires a lot of talking and connection and decidedly not violence. The majority of followers of extremist ideologies, including white supremacy, need the same thing, which is a member of the opposition reaching out and dialoguing in an excruciatingly patient manner. It requires a great deal of emotional labor and is not as sexy as punching someone in the face, but it doesn't drive one's enemies further into the arms of their leaders--whose whole DEAL depends on their followers believing they are under attack. Punching Nazis feels good but let's not fool ourselves into believing it addresses the actual problem.
You're talking about dozens or hundreds of hours of patient, empathetic work that has to be done while the individual you're trying to deradicalize is doing whatever Nazi shit they're feeling, and that's all for the bare possibility that maybe, just maybe, this is one of them that's open to being deradicalized and you're the person whose personal key fits in their lock. This doesn't scale at al; and it's probably doomed in most cases. Every one of these dudes who can be brought back from hell is a victory, sure, but it's an immense time and effort, drawn from a very finite well, to maybe accomplish a few victories that maybe won't be undone by backsliding. If you can drag people out of fascism, great. But if you can't, then you're left with a lot of people who've decided that might makes right and who are devoted to the ugly pleasure of dominating and hurting people for personal aggrandizement and validation.
And those people who've rejected empathy and the humanity of others, all you can really do is contain them and limit the harm they can do to others. Sometimes that means making it clear that if you do fascist shit, your boss and family will find out. Sometimes that means taking down the spaces they use to organize and radicalize people. And sometimes, when they're out for blood, it means establishing that fascist violence will be punished in kind. It's ugly and it sucks, but it's a sad necessity.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:29 PM on August 26, 2019 [50 favorites]
Evans also isn't a veteran. He's interviewed Joey Gibson on camera, they already very much know who he is and would like to beat him up except they also know he's armed and large and they are cowards.
"Ben" is a goddamn hero.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:35 PM on August 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
"Ben" is a goddamn hero.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:35 PM on August 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
That kind of gratuitous violence does not help the cause.
Counterpoint: WWII.
Did you mean "quantity" instead of "kind"?
posted by PMdixon at 3:41 PM on August 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
Counterpoint: WWII.
Did you mean "quantity" instead of "kind"?
posted by PMdixon at 3:41 PM on August 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
Punching Nazis feels good but let's not fool ourselves into believing it addresses the actual problem.
Okay, but if you say that actually fixing it for an individual takes a huge investment of labor on the part of other people, exactly who is going to pay all those people for this work? And let's not kid ourselves that it can be accomplished by, say, anybody is too marginalized, especially anybody who shows the least sign of being upset by any of the upsetting things that have happened. So, we need a vast supply of able-bodied cishet white dudes. Anybody who wants to volunteer to do this: Great. I'm not against you doing that, at all.
But the people who are volunteering to do that are few and far between, and I'm not donating money to the Save the Nazis campaign, here. What someone is actually saying when they say to talk about it is that marginalized people should put themselves further at risk and display markedly more patience than the average person in order to save the Nazis, not from hurting the rest of us, but from getting physically hurt.
It's not that it isn't a thing that could theoretically work. It's that I am not volunteering my free time to hope that some Nazi will listen to a queer Hispanic female-presenting person about why it's bad to be a Nazi. If nobody else is going to volunteer to talk to that person, and someone is going to volunteer to punch him, I'll take it. I will take whichever thing is actually going to get done with the resources available. If they wanted free counseling, they should have signed up for a cause that supported universal health care.
posted by Sequence at 3:53 PM on August 26, 2019 [49 favorites]
Okay, but if you say that actually fixing it for an individual takes a huge investment of labor on the part of other people, exactly who is going to pay all those people for this work? And let's not kid ourselves that it can be accomplished by, say, anybody is too marginalized, especially anybody who shows the least sign of being upset by any of the upsetting things that have happened. So, we need a vast supply of able-bodied cishet white dudes. Anybody who wants to volunteer to do this: Great. I'm not against you doing that, at all.
But the people who are volunteering to do that are few and far between, and I'm not donating money to the Save the Nazis campaign, here. What someone is actually saying when they say to talk about it is that marginalized people should put themselves further at risk and display markedly more patience than the average person in order to save the Nazis, not from hurting the rest of us, but from getting physically hurt.
It's not that it isn't a thing that could theoretically work. It's that I am not volunteering my free time to hope that some Nazi will listen to a queer Hispanic female-presenting person about why it's bad to be a Nazi. If nobody else is going to volunteer to talk to that person, and someone is going to volunteer to punch him, I'll take it. I will take whichever thing is actually going to get done with the resources available. If they wanted free counseling, they should have signed up for a cause that supported universal health care.
posted by Sequence at 3:53 PM on August 26, 2019 [49 favorites]
This is why the most straightforward way to counteract them in a way that they will actually understand and respond to is through actual application of might: not because you believe in the use of violence, but because they only believe in the use of violence.
Hi, I'm a Jew and I'm going to say something unpopular. The Allies didn't fight the Nazis because they hated fascism and they didn't do it because they loved Jews. If they loved Jews (and Roma, and disabled people, and queer people), they would have let us in when we needed instead of turning us away.
I don't trust people on the internet that talk a lot about punching Nazis because honestly, a lot of folks sound like they're getting off on it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of getting an erotic thrill from violence, when it's fictional. Or when it's a game with clear rules between enthusiastically consenting partners. I realize that's inflammatory, and I wouldn't blame a mod for deleting this, but that's honestly how it comes off... not so much here, but on Twitter. There's a glee that feels like a boner-thrill. Maybe I can't differentiate a glib affect from anger from glee, maybe I'm projecting. But it makes me uncomfortable. Especially in conjunction with the fact that tankies, like... even exist. I don't need this from the left. I don't need or want this from people on my team.
Also, the whole "violence is the only language they understand" stuff sounds like classic abusive parent boilerplate. Or what a cop would say about the black or brown people in the neighborhood they patrol.
I am far more comfortable with a framework that positions us all as a hop, skip and a jump away from being monsters, which is why we need checks on power and constant vigilance and to be more compassionate than is honestly feasible than I am with "some people only learn from a fist or a bullet." That's not creating a new world. That's just more of the same.
This isn't an argument to prioritize the safety or humanity of violent bigots over the vulnerable people they would slaughter. I'm one of the people they would slaughter. But, speaking as a person on the left, there's an argument that has kind of whispered through the left, an argument is getting louder now that the Nazis have gotten bolder and actively murderous, and that argument is that non-violence is for suckers. Just let the right people do the right violence on the wrong people and we can solve this thing. Sure. Works out every time.
I mean, again, maybe I'm projecting. I've often thought, "Man, if I had a Death Note." The world would be a lot emptier. I mean, if monsters are disposable and it's good to hurt them before they hurt us, why are we waiting? Why aren't we killing way more people? We could all go buy guns easily. Let's all go out to the Walmart. Seriously. Why wait?
posted by pelvicsorcery at 4:00 PM on August 26, 2019 [95 favorites]
Hi, I'm a Jew and I'm going to say something unpopular. The Allies didn't fight the Nazis because they hated fascism and they didn't do it because they loved Jews. If they loved Jews (and Roma, and disabled people, and queer people), they would have let us in when we needed instead of turning us away.
I don't trust people on the internet that talk a lot about punching Nazis because honestly, a lot of folks sound like they're getting off on it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of getting an erotic thrill from violence, when it's fictional. Or when it's a game with clear rules between enthusiastically consenting partners. I realize that's inflammatory, and I wouldn't blame a mod for deleting this, but that's honestly how it comes off... not so much here, but on Twitter. There's a glee that feels like a boner-thrill. Maybe I can't differentiate a glib affect from anger from glee, maybe I'm projecting. But it makes me uncomfortable. Especially in conjunction with the fact that tankies, like... even exist. I don't need this from the left. I don't need or want this from people on my team.
Also, the whole "violence is the only language they understand" stuff sounds like classic abusive parent boilerplate. Or what a cop would say about the black or brown people in the neighborhood they patrol.
I am far more comfortable with a framework that positions us all as a hop, skip and a jump away from being monsters, which is why we need checks on power and constant vigilance and to be more compassionate than is honestly feasible than I am with "some people only learn from a fist or a bullet." That's not creating a new world. That's just more of the same.
This isn't an argument to prioritize the safety or humanity of violent bigots over the vulnerable people they would slaughter. I'm one of the people they would slaughter. But, speaking as a person on the left, there's an argument that has kind of whispered through the left, an argument is getting louder now that the Nazis have gotten bolder and actively murderous, and that argument is that non-violence is for suckers. Just let the right people do the right violence on the wrong people and we can solve this thing. Sure. Works out every time.
I mean, again, maybe I'm projecting. I've often thought, "Man, if I had a Death Note." The world would be a lot emptier. I mean, if monsters are disposable and it's good to hurt them before they hurt us, why are we waiting? Why aren't we killing way more people? We could all go buy guns easily. Let's all go out to the Walmart. Seriously. Why wait?
posted by pelvicsorcery at 4:00 PM on August 26, 2019 [95 favorites]
I'm not donating money to the Save the Nazis campaign
I am donating to a White Supremacist deprogramming charity. I don't suggest anyone donate to it in place of progressive candidates and causes, but think it is a worthy resource. We need ways of increasing the attrition rate among these groups and these charities offer one possible way.
posted by benzenedream at 4:32 PM on August 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
I am donating to a White Supremacist deprogramming charity. I don't suggest anyone donate to it in place of progressive candidates and causes, but think it is a worthy resource. We need ways of increasing the attrition rate among these groups and these charities offer one possible way.
posted by benzenedream at 4:32 PM on August 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
Anyway this guy infiltrating these groups is a hero and I hope to God those extremely specific personal details are made up.
Is everyone concerned about this not understanding the article?
He's no longer undercover and he's testifying as a witness in multiple cases which he can't do so anonymously. He's basically going public that he screwed these people over to screw them even worse. There's no evidence that the reporter gave out any more than he wanted them too. There is evidence he's got balls of fucking steel though. Just incredible doing this with no formal safety net.
posted by mark k at 4:54 PM on August 26, 2019 [14 favorites]
Is everyone concerned about this not understanding the article?
He's no longer undercover and he's testifying as a witness in multiple cases which he can't do so anonymously. He's basically going public that he screwed these people over to screw them even worse. There's no evidence that the reporter gave out any more than he wanted them too. There is evidence he's got balls of fucking steel though. Just incredible doing this with no formal safety net.
posted by mark k at 4:54 PM on August 26, 2019 [14 favorites]
We need ways of increasing the attrition rate among these groups and these charities offer one possible way.
Strategies like infiltration and unmasking seem much more scalable, though. Destroy the group through fear of association, paranoia, etc, and you prevent the cycle of mutual reinforcement. Drive them far enough underground - like the darkest depths of TOR - and there won't be any new recruits to begin with.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:59 PM on August 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
Strategies like infiltration and unmasking seem much more scalable, though. Destroy the group through fear of association, paranoia, etc, and you prevent the cycle of mutual reinforcement. Drive them far enough underground - like the darkest depths of TOR - and there won't be any new recruits to begin with.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:59 PM on August 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
Everybody needs to be able to contribute in their own way. For some that is empathy and emotional labor, for some that is putting their bodies in direct peril because they're convinced that the danger of violence taking place on those they care for is clear and present.
This doesn't mean you're a sucker if you're not willing to commit violence. This doesn't mean you aren't a sucker if you punch a Nazi as they are organized enough to eventually go full Westborough Baptist Church and turn (even justified) assault into an income stream.
This means that when a threat is leveled and you're present at that moment you can make a decision to respond to the threat for yourself and on behalf of those threatened, and I will support your decision because you're there on the ground and I'm not. Further, I'm not convinced the people whose jobs this is (law enforcement) are actually doing this job to their full capability, which is why we're having this conversation. I'm new to this concern but it's an old, old story to marginalized people who have never once felt defended by law enforcement.
And if it's not in you - that is one hundred percent okay. But I'm not willing to say nobody should ever respond to violence with violence because it presumes everyone threatened has enough privilege to seek help, rise above, or survive injury. And ultimately it sometimes means suffering or watching others suffer on principle, and I can't say I have enough principle to do that.
For me, at least, the realization that I can't unilaterally condemn reactive violence is new and earned through watching the violence and threat of violence work. Watching it create fear and receive ambivalence and even tacit support from law enforcement. That says to me that the rules of civil society are not the ones I imagined so I'm willing to embrace the full spectrum of responses.
posted by abulafa at 5:00 PM on August 26, 2019 [46 favorites]
This doesn't mean you're a sucker if you're not willing to commit violence. This doesn't mean you aren't a sucker if you punch a Nazi as they are organized enough to eventually go full Westborough Baptist Church and turn (even justified) assault into an income stream.
This means that when a threat is leveled and you're present at that moment you can make a decision to respond to the threat for yourself and on behalf of those threatened, and I will support your decision because you're there on the ground and I'm not. Further, I'm not convinced the people whose jobs this is (law enforcement) are actually doing this job to their full capability, which is why we're having this conversation. I'm new to this concern but it's an old, old story to marginalized people who have never once felt defended by law enforcement.
And if it's not in you - that is one hundred percent okay. But I'm not willing to say nobody should ever respond to violence with violence because it presumes everyone threatened has enough privilege to seek help, rise above, or survive injury. And ultimately it sometimes means suffering or watching others suffer on principle, and I can't say I have enough principle to do that.
For me, at least, the realization that I can't unilaterally condemn reactive violence is new and earned through watching the violence and threat of violence work. Watching it create fear and receive ambivalence and even tacit support from law enforcement. That says to me that the rules of civil society are not the ones I imagined so I'm willing to embrace the full spectrum of responses.
posted by abulafa at 5:00 PM on August 26, 2019 [46 favorites]
The Allies didn't fight the Nazis because they hated fascism and they didn't do it because they loved Jews.
No, of course not. They did it because Nazis eventually come for everyone, and because arguing with them might work eventually, but in the meantime, a lot of people get curb-stomped. Hate crimes rise in the aftermath of white supremacist rallies, because they show fascists that they have friends.
I don’t want Nazis to think they have friends. I want them to think that saying “White genocide” will get them shunned by polite society and that gathering in numbers to threaten other people with violence may end with them getting hurt. I want nice people offering them a way out and less nice people offering them an object lesson in what happens if they don’t. There are enough people to do both.
posted by Etrigan at 5:01 PM on August 26, 2019 [69 favorites]
No, of course not. They did it because Nazis eventually come for everyone, and because arguing with them might work eventually, but in the meantime, a lot of people get curb-stomped. Hate crimes rise in the aftermath of white supremacist rallies, because they show fascists that they have friends.
I don’t want Nazis to think they have friends. I want them to think that saying “White genocide” will get them shunned by polite society and that gathering in numbers to threaten other people with violence may end with them getting hurt. I want nice people offering them a way out and less nice people offering them an object lesson in what happens if they don’t. There are enough people to do both.
posted by Etrigan at 5:01 PM on August 26, 2019 [69 favorites]
Watching that video, more than one black guy in their small group. I’m very curious about them. What is it Patriot Prayer wants again?
posted by amanda at 5:02 PM on August 26, 2019
posted by amanda at 5:02 PM on August 26, 2019
That kind of gratuitous violence does not help the cause.
There is no such thing as "violence against Nazis". There is only self-defense.
posted by JohnFromGR at 5:05 PM on August 26, 2019 [28 favorites]
There is no such thing as "violence against Nazis". There is only self-defense.
posted by JohnFromGR at 5:05 PM on August 26, 2019 [28 favorites]
thanks, pelvicsorcery --
came to say this is proving a most annoying thread, but you put it way better than I ever could. I have a good friend who was generally one for not suffering nazis (and various other assholes). If he felt they deserved a proper punch or whatever, he wasn't shy about delivering. Problem was, he got it wrong every now and then, punched the wrong person (ie: not a nazi etc) and in this particular game, you've gotta bat 1000 or not at all.
For the record, my friend doesn't punch anyone anymore. He's wiser now.
posted by philip-random at 5:09 PM on August 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
came to say this is proving a most annoying thread, but you put it way better than I ever could. I have a good friend who was generally one for not suffering nazis (and various other assholes). If he felt they deserved a proper punch or whatever, he wasn't shy about delivering. Problem was, he got it wrong every now and then, punched the wrong person (ie: not a nazi etc) and in this particular game, you've gotta bat 1000 or not at all.
For the record, my friend doesn't punch anyone anymore. He's wiser now.
posted by philip-random at 5:09 PM on August 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
Also, the whole "violence is the only language they understand" stuff sounds like classic abusive parent boilerplate. Or what a cop would say about the black or brown people in the neighborhood they patrol.
In both of those examples, the violence is wielded by aggressors with lots of power against people with no power. That’s what makes it abusive.
When you wield violence against someone with lots of power who is trying to hurt you, that is called self defense.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:22 PM on August 26, 2019 [52 favorites]
In both of those examples, the violence is wielded by aggressors with lots of power against people with no power. That’s what makes it abusive.
When you wield violence against someone with lots of power who is trying to hurt you, that is called self defense.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:22 PM on August 26, 2019 [52 favorites]
I do agree a lot of people seem to get off on it, and they freak me out, but it worries me a lot less than Nazis coming to power. If and when the left is ascendant and the power dynamic reverses I will worry about it, because that will be the time to fight that battle.
Right now, though, the battle to be fought is the one against the rising Nazi menace.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:25 PM on August 26, 2019 [21 favorites]
Right now, though, the battle to be fought is the one against the rising Nazi menace.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:25 PM on August 26, 2019 [21 favorites]
The way you can tell that fascists and antifa are not in fact two sides of the same coin just people looking for a fight is how they react when they don't find one. The white supremecists have a habit of beating up random people, they especially seem to target interracial couples. Black block antifa people just.. go home.
posted by Space Coyote at 5:29 PM on August 26, 2019 [48 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 5:29 PM on August 26, 2019 [48 favorites]
I don't trust people on the internet that talk a lot about punching Nazis because honestly, a lot of folks sound like they're getting off on it.
We’re not “people on the internet”. We’re people who’ve had this bullshit bused into our communities and watched while the powers that be don’t do a damn thing. We’re people who have watched people be murdered on our streets while the president of the god damn country blathers on about the very fine people on both sides. We’re people that have lost family and friends to a massive propaganda effort that’s unparalleled in our lifetimes. If we’re just “people on the internet” to you, that problem is yours.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:32 PM on August 26, 2019 [65 favorites]
We’re not “people on the internet”. We’re people who’ve had this bullshit bused into our communities and watched while the powers that be don’t do a damn thing. We’re people who have watched people be murdered on our streets while the president of the god damn country blathers on about the very fine people on both sides. We’re people that have lost family and friends to a massive propaganda effort that’s unparalleled in our lifetimes. If we’re just “people on the internet” to you, that problem is yours.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:32 PM on August 26, 2019 [65 favorites]
i am also a jew and i think we should feed nazis to ravenous hyenas but i celebrate our differences
posted by poffin boffin at 5:37 PM on August 26, 2019 [80 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:37 PM on August 26, 2019 [80 favorites]
Why does Andy Ngo have a weird British accent?
posted by geoff. at 5:51 PM on August 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by geoff. at 5:51 PM on August 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think that’s his way of telegraphing what a bloody wanker he is.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:01 PM on August 26, 2019 [21 favorites]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:01 PM on August 26, 2019 [21 favorites]
Also, the whole "violence is the only language they understand" stuff sounds like classic abusive parent boilerplate. Or what a cop would say about the black or brown people in the neighborhood they patrol.
We have already seen this movie. We know the spoilers. If you leave them alone to complete their horrific works, the Nazis take over the country and mobilize its military against whatever minority populations are currently being scapegoated for creating the greater societal woes we all collectively face. In 1932, it was German Jews. In 2019, it's American Latinos.
In 1932, you could land a punch on a Nazi and stand a chance of getting away with it if the crowd was sympathetic. By 1940, it would almost certainly land you in the death camps. Three years have passed since the election of the brazen white nationalists in America; do you want to speculate about where that puts us in the 70-year-old 8-year-timeline, or would you like to actually do something about the proudly-self-proclaimed Nazis marching in major cities?
posted by Mayor West at 6:29 PM on August 26, 2019 [39 favorites]
We have already seen this movie. We know the spoilers. If you leave them alone to complete their horrific works, the Nazis take over the country and mobilize its military against whatever minority populations are currently being scapegoated for creating the greater societal woes we all collectively face. In 1932, it was German Jews. In 2019, it's American Latinos.
In 1932, you could land a punch on a Nazi and stand a chance of getting away with it if the crowd was sympathetic. By 1940, it would almost certainly land you in the death camps. Three years have passed since the election of the brazen white nationalists in America; do you want to speculate about where that puts us in the 70-year-old 8-year-timeline, or would you like to actually do something about the proudly-self-proclaimed Nazis marching in major cities?
posted by Mayor West at 6:29 PM on August 26, 2019 [39 favorites]
you do realize that punching someone in the face and doing nothing are not the only options available?
posted by philip-random at 6:42 PM on August 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 6:42 PM on August 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
you do realize that punching someone in the face and doing nothing are not the only options available?
What a weird thing to post in a thread specifically about someone infiltrating and exposing nazis and not punching them.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:48 PM on August 26, 2019 [45 favorites]
What a weird thing to post in a thread specifically about someone infiltrating and exposing nazis and not punching them.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:48 PM on August 26, 2019 [45 favorites]
You're right, doing nothing is not an option.
posted by Reyturner at 6:48 PM on August 26, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by Reyturner at 6:48 PM on August 26, 2019 [12 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, rather than rehash the same general points about Nazi punching (since we've been over those points many times here and it tends to just get more heated without really changing anybody's mind), let's please steer back toward discussing the specific situation described in the links.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:49 PM on August 26, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:49 PM on August 26, 2019 [15 favorites]
Anyway, kudos to Ben for stepping up and doing the work that authorities are not doing to track groups like Patriot Prayer, preferring instead to focus their efforts on "Black Identity Extremists" who have had the temerity to advocate for the radical idea that the police should shoot fewer unarmed people.
posted by Nerd of the North at 7:06 PM on August 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 7:06 PM on August 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
> I think that’s his way of telegraphing what a bloody wanker he is.[obligatory Luce] "YOU'RE A WANKER
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 8:24 PM on August 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
Right-Wing Star Andy Ngo Exits Quillette After Damning Video Surfaces
absolutely livid at Quillette's discrimination against those with severe politically inflicted brain injuries that rob them of the ability to hold their container of fruit
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:37 PM on August 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
absolutely livid at Quillette's discrimination against those with severe politically inflicted brain injuries that rob them of the ability to hold their container of fruit
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:37 PM on August 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
With any luck they'll start killing each other, and no one else has to take the karmic hit or do the jail time.
I think the best tactic might be to post lots of stories about undercover antifa types infiltrating fascist meetups and planning sessions, then we all stay home and binge watch something good. The fascists can then use their powerful skills of deduction to work out who is acting just a little too enthusiastic about the master race to be believable and beat the snot out of him.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:20 PM on August 26, 2019 [14 favorites]
I think the best tactic might be to post lots of stories about undercover antifa types infiltrating fascist meetups and planning sessions, then we all stay home and binge watch something good. The fascists can then use their powerful skills of deduction to work out who is acting just a little too enthusiastic about the master race to be believable and beat the snot out of him.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:20 PM on August 26, 2019 [14 favorites]
I read something a while back, a tumblr post that I can't find anymore, that said something to the gist of:
Hufflepuffs counter nazis by organizing community structures to protect those the nazis are targeting.
Ravenclaws counter nazis trough educational outreach, preventing those vulnerable from being recruited and bringing back those they can.
Slytherins counter nazis by sabotaging them from within.
And Gryffindors punch nazis.
We're fooling ourselves to think there's a magic method that solves this. Violence begets violence and nazis will always tell the story in the way that most suits them. Education works for those it can reach while pushing others further into the arms of fascist ideology. What "Ben" is doing takes an immense amount of personal effort and risk, for incremental rewards. And community organizing is at best a stop-gap in a place like, say, Portland, where the police are openly on the side of the nazis anyway.
It takes all sorts of fighting back to be effective.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:31 PM on August 26, 2019 [38 favorites]
Hufflepuffs counter nazis by organizing community structures to protect those the nazis are targeting.
Ravenclaws counter nazis trough educational outreach, preventing those vulnerable from being recruited and bringing back those they can.
Slytherins counter nazis by sabotaging them from within.
And Gryffindors punch nazis.
We're fooling ourselves to think there's a magic method that solves this. Violence begets violence and nazis will always tell the story in the way that most suits them. Education works for those it can reach while pushing others further into the arms of fascist ideology. What "Ben" is doing takes an immense amount of personal effort and risk, for incremental rewards. And community organizing is at best a stop-gap in a place like, say, Portland, where the police are openly on the side of the nazis anyway.
It takes all sorts of fighting back to be effective.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:31 PM on August 26, 2019 [38 favorites]
Watching that video, more than one black guy in their small group. I’m very curious about them.
This Daily Beast article addresses this issue. There are none so blind as they who will not see, I guess.
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:51 PM on August 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
This Daily Beast article addresses this issue. There are none so blind as they who will not see, I guess.
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:51 PM on August 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
I would also like to mention the good work of groups like Unicorn Riot, who observe, document, and report on online neo-nazi/white-nationalist spaces, gathering information and data, leaking plans, and exposing members to prevent them from being effective.
They;re a listed charity! Donations are deductible!
And if you like these kinds of stories 3 Months Inside The New York Alt-Right
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 PM on August 26, 2019 [20 favorites]
They;re a listed charity! Donations are deductible!
And if you like these kinds of stories 3 Months Inside The New York Alt-Right
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 PM on August 26, 2019 [20 favorites]
This guy is doing God's work. Violence is effective. Praising it less so.
posted by dmh at 10:30 PM on August 26, 2019
posted by dmh at 10:30 PM on August 26, 2019
He's no longer undercover and he's testifying as a witness in multiple cases which he can't do so anonymously. He's basically going public that he screwed these people over to screw them even worse. There's no evidence that the reporter gave out any more than he wanted them too. There is evidence he's got balls of fucking steel though. Just incredible doing this with no formal safety net.
posted by mark k at 8:54 AM on August 27 [7 favorites +] [!]
Of all the things I could say or repeat in this thread, this is the one I want to most emphatically put out in the universe. Should Nazis be afraid of being punched? Maybe. But what they should be most afraid of is being a Nazi in any way shape or form that other people can hear.
Punching isn't how you effect that. Exposing and shutting down and making it impossible to feel safe is how. If there is someone in your social orbit who is a Nazi, hurt them. Get them fired, get them deplatformed, get them on record and get them unfriended and shunned until they publicly apologize. The first step to redeeming them is defanging them.
If you do get boner-thrills out of punching Nazis, stop. The biggest thrill comes from making them powerless, and punching is nowhere near the most effective tool for doing that.
posted by saysthis at 2:18 AM on August 27, 2019 [18 favorites]
posted by mark k at 8:54 AM on August 27 [7 favorites +] [!]
Of all the things I could say or repeat in this thread, this is the one I want to most emphatically put out in the universe. Should Nazis be afraid of being punched? Maybe. But what they should be most afraid of is being a Nazi in any way shape or form that other people can hear.
Punching isn't how you effect that. Exposing and shutting down and making it impossible to feel safe is how. If there is someone in your social orbit who is a Nazi, hurt them. Get them fired, get them deplatformed, get them on record and get them unfriended and shunned until they publicly apologize. The first step to redeeming them is defanging them.
If you do get boner-thrills out of punching Nazis, stop. The biggest thrill comes from making them powerless, and punching is nowhere near the most effective tool for doing that.
posted by saysthis at 2:18 AM on August 27, 2019 [18 favorites]
To be fair, that works mostly if the rest of us make absolutely sure that everyone around us thinks of Nazis as shameful. I can add more qualifiers to that "shameful," but I keep feeling like I'm insulting honest carrion eaters and parasites.
What works is making sure that whatever Nazis fear, you embody. They don't fear violence much if they don't deal with consequences for it, but the consequences of being shown to be cowards terrify them... and, well, often they are physical cowards. Social cowards, too. You do whatever works to make them afraid and put social pressure on the Nazis.
Then folks who find de-radicalization is something that they are skilled at and called to do have something to work with. It is harder to de-radicalize in the absence of intense public pressure to stop being the thing. What you want is intense pressure on Nazis combined with a quiet back door that only opens to escape if they stop being fucking Nazis.
Y'all, these fights drive me nuts. We do actually need both of these approaches, but that means that you have to appreciate and understand the effects of the tactics that folks using other means are bringing to bear. Even if you aren't personally suited to them. You gotta know exactly who your enemies are at any given moment.
Save your ire for the right target, be that Nazis at home or Jair Bolsonaro abroad. Figure out who is doing the worst thing around you, work to handle that with anyone else who feels motivated to deal with it, and then work out what the next worst fire to you is and tackle that. But don't take potshots at people who are theoretically your allies for dumping dirt on a fire that you're trying to douse with water.
posted by sciatrix at 5:25 AM on August 27, 2019 [28 favorites]
What works is making sure that whatever Nazis fear, you embody. They don't fear violence much if they don't deal with consequences for it, but the consequences of being shown to be cowards terrify them... and, well, often they are physical cowards. Social cowards, too. You do whatever works to make them afraid and put social pressure on the Nazis.
Then folks who find de-radicalization is something that they are skilled at and called to do have something to work with. It is harder to de-radicalize in the absence of intense public pressure to stop being the thing. What you want is intense pressure on Nazis combined with a quiet back door that only opens to escape if they stop being fucking Nazis.
Y'all, these fights drive me nuts. We do actually need both of these approaches, but that means that you have to appreciate and understand the effects of the tactics that folks using other means are bringing to bear. Even if you aren't personally suited to them. You gotta know exactly who your enemies are at any given moment.
Save your ire for the right target, be that Nazis at home or Jair Bolsonaro abroad. Figure out who is doing the worst thing around you, work to handle that with anyone else who feels motivated to deal with it, and then work out what the next worst fire to you is and tackle that. But don't take potshots at people who are theoretically your allies for dumping dirt on a fire that you're trying to douse with water.
posted by sciatrix at 5:25 AM on August 27, 2019 [28 favorites]
I will say that I’m really enjoying seeing how other vets take their oath upon getting out. This is one of the more pleasant varieties I’ve heard of. Good man.
posted by corb at 6:20 AM on August 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:20 AM on August 27, 2019 [13 favorites]
Ben effectively punched Nazis from within. Definitely riskier than punching from without. My worry is that he gets hurt before the larger public hears his testimony. Stay safe, out there.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:02 AM on August 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:02 AM on August 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
One thing I’ve wondered since Gibson et al appeared is how they can afford to do these events on an almost constant basis. For a while, PP came to Seattle to throw their public temper tantrums; that’s a three-hour drive each way. Do they have jobs? Spouses/partners with jobs? Do they just live off online donations from suckers?
posted by RakDaddy at 8:02 AM on August 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by RakDaddy at 8:02 AM on August 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
Do they just live off online donations from suckers?
Ding ding ding ding ding!
As with much of the "activism" taking place on the right, it's a grift. I have no doubt that Joey Gibson is in actual fact a reactionary piece of shit, but he also figured out that being a really loud, obnoxious, fame-seeking reactionary piece of shit has the added benefit of paying the bills.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:16 AM on August 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
Ding ding ding ding ding!
As with much of the "activism" taking place on the right, it's a grift. I have no doubt that Joey Gibson is in actual fact a reactionary piece of shit, but he also figured out that being a really loud, obnoxious, fame-seeking reactionary piece of shit has the added benefit of paying the bills.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:16 AM on August 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
...it's a grift.
I long suspected Gibson's quarter-assed run at the US Senate was part of a grift, seeing how he was running to be Washington's senator and did the majority of his campaigning in Portland.
posted by RakDaddy at 9:35 AM on August 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
I long suspected Gibson's quarter-assed run at the US Senate was part of a grift, seeing how he was running to be Washington's senator and did the majority of his campaigning in Portland.
posted by RakDaddy at 9:35 AM on August 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
Hi, thank you for making this post. I try to make the posts that revolve around Patriot Prayer/Portland protests, but this entire debacle has been extremely exhausting and I never quite processed my feelings on the past few weeks events and the zeitgeist of this particular "event". Now I am ready lmao so here comes a deluge of complicated feelings let's get it
This cast of characters is hilarious and depressing. We know the enemies: Patriot Prayer, led by Joey Gibson, and their lil soldiers like Tiny Toese and Russell Schultz. Andy Ngo, a "journalist", Haley Adams, the Proud Boys. Then we know the...anti-heroes? Antifa.
One group has specific identities: faces, names attached to them, etc. Another is an amorphous glob of left-wing activists and the most identifying feature is black bandanas or something and sometimes they beat people up. One side wants to kill women, POC, queer ppl, etc I mean basically anybody that isn't straight white and male. "Antifa" wants to stop them through whatever means possible, through strategies that have historical significance (The Battle of Cable Street happened in 1936 and we're still discussing it as an effective strategy) and evolving strategies that take from post-modernism and other forms of Cultural Marxism (I'm kidding btw but I do think the milkshake thing is a practice of this thought process).
The right-wing in America always has an upper-hand.
Jack Flash:
You are being disingenuous. The video clearly shows Ngo being punched in the face and kicked by antifa activists.
That kind of gratuitous violence does not help the cause.
You've posted similar tiding in other threads about these topics as well, but I believe this forgets something very important, and that's the fact that "the cause" is already handicapped by the media ecosystem, "the state" (as a political entity), and the prejudice other human beings hold. "We" (as in leftists, but I don't entirely identify myself as such for particular reasons) are always at a disadvantage when it comes to these things. The media et al. give way more credence to right-wing ideas than they do to "leftist" ideas. People are incredulous that one would stand up for equal rights and human rights, but are curious when it comes to those who love genocide. So, to say that "this [particular tactic] does not help the cause" makes an erroneous presumption that "the cause" is on equal footing with the enemy. It isn't, it's biased against anti-fascism, because "the media" is part of a model that requires the accrual of capital, which is inherently a fascistic pursuit that is at odds with human rights. I know that those previous sentences are sort of "theory nerd" shit, but I hold my ground on them.
Here are my thoughts on this entire debacle, which I have considered a pseudo-event: it's an event for the purpose of having media exposure. I do believe fascists want to come here and murder people, and I'll get to that in a moment. The actual rally they scheduled and promoted is the pseudo-event. It draws media exposure. It puts them out in the news, gets them interviews, gets them money, etc.
WITH THAT SAID, the actual "event" is two-fold a psychological and physical assault on the city. These guys show up days in advance to attack and intimidate who they consider to be undesirables. People get hurt, they go to the police, the police don't give a shit, and the cycle repeats. In the mean time, everybody is on edge. People are scared to leave their houses. That rally was help on a Saturday, and people refused to go out on a nice summer weekend because they were terrified. My entire instagram feed was filled with people freaking out. BUT WHERE IS THE MEDIA EXPOSURE ABOUT THIS? The media does not give a fuck about vulnerable populations in the city being tracked down and beaten by people from out-of-town, they only give a fuck about a 300-style confrontation at the waterfront.
Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer, and their allies are humanoid vermin that consistently invade our city in order to attack our friends. The mayor is too weak to do anything to stop it, and his lieutenants are conspiring with the invaders and helping them achieve their objectives. Who is going to help us?
Antifa are the front-line foot soldiers in this war. They show up on the battlefield, they make their presence very known, and this is important because it needs to be shown that these invaders aren't able to just roll in here and do whatever they like.
BUT, antifa can only go so far. People don't trust the police because the police have collaborated with the right-wing. What the "left" in Portland needs (if it hasn't been done already) is an alternative, community-focused self-defense force, that would operate around the days of the pseudo-events, defending people from the assaults that inevitably happen, and responding to any details about Patriot Prayer/Proud Boys/whoever being in neighborhoods, roaming around looking for targets. Those of us that live here and have our ears to these particular scenes know for a fact that whenever these events happen, people get attacked, and they are attacked in particular neighborhoods where they hang out at. Women, black people, gay people, trans people, queer people, you know, just all these people, are already living lives where they have to consider the dangers of existing in public, whereas people like me don't, and it's terrifying that they have to live with increased danger because nobody will stop these invaders. They come here multiple times every summer, they are capable of existing among our population, and it's nothing but paranoia every time. They win by debilitating our city's population with fear.
I am not 100% with antifa's attack on Ngo, but I am not 100% against it either. It serves a very specific function, which is that it shows that fascists should be scared and that we know who they are and we can strike at them whenever we wish. Why does the right-wing get to have a monopoly on fear and violence against us? Because it is sanctioned all the way to the top, starting among centrist, liberal populations, to the media, to city hall, to the police, to the state apparatus. The "left" are simultaneously a dangerous terrorist organization and a bunch of "pussies"/whatever other "feminized" language can be used, and the right are manly men who love to kill the wimps and just want the nation to their white selves. It's always been like this. The right has an advantage.
Why is there never scrutiny against the right-wing invading liberal cities, bringing guns, and talking about massacring the populations of these cities? Gee, I wonder 🙄
posted by gucci mane at 9:37 AM on August 27, 2019 [48 favorites]
This cast of characters is hilarious and depressing. We know the enemies: Patriot Prayer, led by Joey Gibson, and their lil soldiers like Tiny Toese and Russell Schultz. Andy Ngo, a "journalist", Haley Adams, the Proud Boys. Then we know the...anti-heroes? Antifa.
One group has specific identities: faces, names attached to them, etc. Another is an amorphous glob of left-wing activists and the most identifying feature is black bandanas or something and sometimes they beat people up. One side wants to kill women, POC, queer ppl, etc I mean basically anybody that isn't straight white and male. "Antifa" wants to stop them through whatever means possible, through strategies that have historical significance (The Battle of Cable Street happened in 1936 and we're still discussing it as an effective strategy) and evolving strategies that take from post-modernism and other forms of Cultural Marxism (I'm kidding btw but I do think the milkshake thing is a practice of this thought process).
The right-wing in America always has an upper-hand.
Jack Flash:
You are being disingenuous. The video clearly shows Ngo being punched in the face and kicked by antifa activists.
That kind of gratuitous violence does not help the cause.
You've posted similar tiding in other threads about these topics as well, but I believe this forgets something very important, and that's the fact that "the cause" is already handicapped by the media ecosystem, "the state" (as a political entity), and the prejudice other human beings hold. "We" (as in leftists, but I don't entirely identify myself as such for particular reasons) are always at a disadvantage when it comes to these things. The media et al. give way more credence to right-wing ideas than they do to "leftist" ideas. People are incredulous that one would stand up for equal rights and human rights, but are curious when it comes to those who love genocide. So, to say that "this [particular tactic] does not help the cause" makes an erroneous presumption that "the cause" is on equal footing with the enemy. It isn't, it's biased against anti-fascism, because "the media" is part of a model that requires the accrual of capital, which is inherently a fascistic pursuit that is at odds with human rights. I know that those previous sentences are sort of "theory nerd" shit, but I hold my ground on them.
Here are my thoughts on this entire debacle, which I have considered a pseudo-event: it's an event for the purpose of having media exposure. I do believe fascists want to come here and murder people, and I'll get to that in a moment. The actual rally they scheduled and promoted is the pseudo-event. It draws media exposure. It puts them out in the news, gets them interviews, gets them money, etc.
WITH THAT SAID, the actual "event" is two-fold a psychological and physical assault on the city. These guys show up days in advance to attack and intimidate who they consider to be undesirables. People get hurt, they go to the police, the police don't give a shit, and the cycle repeats. In the mean time, everybody is on edge. People are scared to leave their houses. That rally was help on a Saturday, and people refused to go out on a nice summer weekend because they were terrified. My entire instagram feed was filled with people freaking out. BUT WHERE IS THE MEDIA EXPOSURE ABOUT THIS? The media does not give a fuck about vulnerable populations in the city being tracked down and beaten by people from out-of-town, they only give a fuck about a 300-style confrontation at the waterfront.
Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer, and their allies are humanoid vermin that consistently invade our city in order to attack our friends. The mayor is too weak to do anything to stop it, and his lieutenants are conspiring with the invaders and helping them achieve their objectives. Who is going to help us?
Antifa are the front-line foot soldiers in this war. They show up on the battlefield, they make their presence very known, and this is important because it needs to be shown that these invaders aren't able to just roll in here and do whatever they like.
BUT, antifa can only go so far. People don't trust the police because the police have collaborated with the right-wing. What the "left" in Portland needs (if it hasn't been done already) is an alternative, community-focused self-defense force, that would operate around the days of the pseudo-events, defending people from the assaults that inevitably happen, and responding to any details about Patriot Prayer/Proud Boys/whoever being in neighborhoods, roaming around looking for targets. Those of us that live here and have our ears to these particular scenes know for a fact that whenever these events happen, people get attacked, and they are attacked in particular neighborhoods where they hang out at. Women, black people, gay people, trans people, queer people, you know, just all these people, are already living lives where they have to consider the dangers of existing in public, whereas people like me don't, and it's terrifying that they have to live with increased danger because nobody will stop these invaders. They come here multiple times every summer, they are capable of existing among our population, and it's nothing but paranoia every time. They win by debilitating our city's population with fear.
I am not 100% with antifa's attack on Ngo, but I am not 100% against it either. It serves a very specific function, which is that it shows that fascists should be scared and that we know who they are and we can strike at them whenever we wish. Why does the right-wing get to have a monopoly on fear and violence against us? Because it is sanctioned all the way to the top, starting among centrist, liberal populations, to the media, to city hall, to the police, to the state apparatus. The "left" are simultaneously a dangerous terrorist organization and a bunch of "pussies"/whatever other "feminized" language can be used, and the right are manly men who love to kill the wimps and just want the nation to their white selves. It's always been like this. The right has an advantage.
Why is there never scrutiny against the right-wing invading liberal cities, bringing guns, and talking about massacring the populations of these cities? Gee, I wonder 🙄
posted by gucci mane at 9:37 AM on August 27, 2019 [48 favorites]
I will note that crowd funding, and the right wing grift generally, seem like easy ways to hide or launder illegal sources of cash, and I suspect there aren't a lot of LEO hours dedicated to wondering how these people are supported. Not, like, say, the way we care about ISIS or AQ financial support.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:40 AM on August 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 9:40 AM on August 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
WITH THAT SAID, the actual "event" is two-fold a psychological and physical assault on the city. These guys show up days in advance to attack and intimidate who they consider to be undesirables.
this. we have people that come in, stay at like, airbnbs in boring-ass neighborhoods, and then will do shit like: stand around on a sidewalk in this neighborhood seig-heiling. drive slowly up and down the streets yelling things. it is unsettling. it makes me think about how a few years ago i was like "well, this situation is politically unpleasant but we don't have neo-nazis kicking people in the streets, if that happens, that's really fucked up." and now that's just part of our summers in portland is weird white supremacist tourists coming into town and terrorizing people.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 10:24 AM on August 27, 2019 [27 favorites]
this. we have people that come in, stay at like, airbnbs in boring-ass neighborhoods, and then will do shit like: stand around on a sidewalk in this neighborhood seig-heiling. drive slowly up and down the streets yelling things. it is unsettling. it makes me think about how a few years ago i was like "well, this situation is politically unpleasant but we don't have neo-nazis kicking people in the streets, if that happens, that's really fucked up." and now that's just part of our summers in portland is weird white supremacist tourists coming into town and terrorizing people.
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 10:24 AM on August 27, 2019 [27 favorites]
WITH THAT SAID, the actual "event" is two-fold a psychological and physical assault on the city. These guys show up days in advance to attack and intimidate who they consider to be undesirables. People get hurt, they go to the police, the police don't give a shit, and the cycle repeats. In the mean time, everybody is on edge. People are scared to leave their houses. That rally was help on a Saturday, and people refused to go out on a nice summer weekend because they were terrified.
And we had a client cancel their trip to Portland, citing the "Proud Boys vs. Antifa" event (the capitalization was hers, revealing a common belief that this was yet another rivalry between two organized gangs). These guys have a winning narrative every single time if they say they're marching in Portland to protest "Antifa violence", as if they're just practicing their First Amendment rights to speak up against the violent leftists. It's a narrative that I think is stuck in the craws of many people in suburban American especially, even those who identify as Democrats. As long as the two minute nightly news reports lead off with footage of scuffles without correctly framing the incident, that's what we'll be stuck with for the foreseeable future.
posted by vverse23 at 10:33 AM on August 27, 2019 [15 favorites]
And we had a client cancel their trip to Portland, citing the "Proud Boys vs. Antifa" event (the capitalization was hers, revealing a common belief that this was yet another rivalry between two organized gangs). These guys have a winning narrative every single time if they say they're marching in Portland to protest "Antifa violence", as if they're just practicing their First Amendment rights to speak up against the violent leftists. It's a narrative that I think is stuck in the craws of many people in suburban American especially, even those who identify as Democrats. As long as the two minute nightly news reports lead off with footage of scuffles without correctly framing the incident, that's what we'll be stuck with for the foreseeable future.
posted by vverse23 at 10:33 AM on August 27, 2019 [15 favorites]
Besides Unicorn Riot (@UR_Ninja), It's Going Down (@IGD_News) does very good work on fascists. Other good follows on Twitter include @DavidNeiwert, @No_Nazis_Please, @jason_a_w (the Guardian journalist), @willsommer, @RoseCityAntifa, @Idavox, @161EUG, and @jamcityantifa.
More than anything, nazis hate being exposed, so that's a good tactic if you prefer nonviolence. That could include internet sleuthing, deplatforming by reporting accounts online and notifying companies of their fashy employees, and -- especially if you look at all like the stereotype of alt-fash -- wandering on the rightward side of these rallies and photographing/videotaping folks, especially distinctive tattoos, and faces when their masks slip. Collect data and share it online.
I thought this was the most interesting quote of the OP article:
More than anything, nazis hate being exposed, so that's a good tactic if you prefer nonviolence. That could include internet sleuthing, deplatforming by reporting accounts online and notifying companies of their fashy employees, and -- especially if you look at all like the stereotype of alt-fash -- wandering on the rightward side of these rallies and photographing/videotaping folks, especially distinctive tattoos, and faces when their masks slip. Collect data and share it online.
I thought this was the most interesting quote of the OP article:
“There was no vetting. They’re just not very curious people. I think part of it is fearing that a new person might be associated with right wing groups more extreme than they are."posted by msalt at 11:01 AM on August 27, 2019 [16 favorites]
The framing will never be “correct”: these are neo-Nazi rallies, but because these guys aren’t marching in Wehrmacht uniforms and are saying “we aren’t racist” nobody considers them as such. If there were no counter-protests they’d be framed as peaceful pro-1A rallies and the news would be regurgitating interviews with these guys talking about “traditional American values”, “Muslims”, “black people have weird skulls”, “women rape men and take their jobs”, “trans people rape kids in bathrooms” and nobody would give a fuck because even amongst liberal populations these sorts of attitudes are worth having a debate about.
posted by gucci mane at 11:09 AM on August 27, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 11:09 AM on August 27, 2019 [16 favorites]
I would add @arunindy to msalt's excellent list.
posted by vverse23 at 11:16 AM on August 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by vverse23 at 11:16 AM on August 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
There's many ways to interfere with these Fascist rallies.
For instance, brass instruments can be very, very loud.
The Proud Boys came to a local park in Seattle a few days ago, and assorted Antifa and other counter-protesters came out. One was a punk guy, with a saxophone. Which he blared, whenever any of the Proud Boys tried to speak. I have no idea whether or not he played the saxophone well, but it did help drown out the noise.
Personally, I feel like the Proud Boys and other assorted Fascists will be an excellent audience for my burgeoning trumpet skills. (Seriously. I'm looking at getting a cheap trumpet for protests.)
posted by spinifex23 at 12:22 PM on August 27, 2019 [17 favorites]
For instance, brass instruments can be very, very loud.
The Proud Boys came to a local park in Seattle a few days ago, and assorted Antifa and other counter-protesters came out. One was a punk guy, with a saxophone. Which he blared, whenever any of the Proud Boys tried to speak. I have no idea whether or not he played the saxophone well, but it did help drown out the noise.
Personally, I feel like the Proud Boys and other assorted Fascists will be an excellent audience for my burgeoning trumpet skills. (Seriously. I'm looking at getting a cheap trumpet for protests.)
posted by spinifex23 at 12:22 PM on August 27, 2019 [17 favorites]
Following them with a tuba seems to work too
posted by mbo at 1:34 PM on August 27, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by mbo at 1:34 PM on August 27, 2019 [5 favorites]
I'm A-OK with anything that disrupts fascists, especially forms of disruption that are absurd, surrealistic, post-modern. Popular Mobilization [Twitter] is one such group in Portland that used the opportunity to do fun things, such as having dancing unicorns, and were responsible for the milkshakes at the previous engagement. They helped raise money for an Oregon immigrant rights organization:
posted by gucci mane at 2:09 PM on August 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
Some 300 fascists turned out for the rally, and in the week since, PopMob says Causa has “received $36,017.69 to support their work with Latino immigrants and their families.”There are a lot of good things happening as far as anti-fascism goes, and like I said, these are part of evolving strategies. Violent street brawls are a historical strategy, one that does have results (there was an article or a study showing how violent anti-fascism impacts fascists, making them drop out of those groups, or at least deterring those groups. I can't find it now, however), but we have a hostile, rapid tempo media ecosystem filled with non-journalists and having a liberal city such as Portland constantly under attack by fascists buys into their narrative of "haha liberals are such pussies look at how weak they are" and "wow antifa is a dangerous terrorist organization hey proud boys tell us why you hate women so much/patriot prayer tell us why mexicans are subhumans".
Put another way: Each fascist who turned up in Portland last weekend ended up personally raising about $120 for an anti-fascist cause they despise.
posted by gucci mane at 2:09 PM on August 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
When we were doing clinic defense we would put the people with tats and purple hair on the front lines (this was in the late 80s when these things were rather unusual) - the nice middle-aged people in pastels from the burbs who supported OR would find themselves pushed up against them in the melee, lots only ever came to one clinic.
Now the nazis are not nice middle aged people in pastels from the burbs, but I bet a lot of them are all mouth keyboard warriors and when push comes to shove they may well have better things to do, I suspect that their own people scare noobs a bit too ... discouraging those people from becoming committed by a bit of agro may well be a valid tactic
posted by mbo at 2:26 PM on August 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Now the nazis are not nice middle aged people in pastels from the burbs, but I bet a lot of them are all mouth keyboard warriors and when push comes to shove they may well have better things to do, I suspect that their own people scare noobs a bit too ... discouraging those people from becoming committed by a bit of agro may well be a valid tactic
posted by mbo at 2:26 PM on August 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
(watching video / reading )
Jesus Christ, these fash are stupidly casual about cameras, even if they did think the camera operator was one of their own. What would Stringer Bell say?
I love the insight of infiltrating at the lowest, dumbest levels. Stay safe, soon-to-be-unmasked navy man.
posted by Sauce Trough at 3:13 PM on August 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
Jesus Christ, these fash are stupidly casual about cameras, even if they did think the camera operator was one of their own. What would Stringer Bell say?
I love the insight of infiltrating at the lowest, dumbest levels. Stay safe, soon-to-be-unmasked navy man.
posted by Sauce Trough at 3:13 PM on August 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
Not often I like sports fans
The Portland Timbers soccer fans defied Major League Soccer, team ownership, and fascism in one glorious night.
posted by adamvasco at 4:22 PM on August 27, 2019 [23 favorites]
The Portland Timbers soccer fans defied Major League Soccer, team ownership, and fascism in one glorious night.
posted by adamvasco at 4:22 PM on August 27, 2019 [23 favorites]
Maybe too obvious, but getting the police to approximate a fair response to right-wingers they often openly sympathize with makes a big difference.
Patriot Prayer and "Proud" Boys often carry thick wooden or thin metal rods, thinly disguised as "flagpoles," and are very experienced at using them in street fighting. (Some have infiltrated medieval LARPers to practice with "swords" and shields. They often wear tactical armor at rallies, too.)
At the August 17th rally in Portland, the police FINALLY confiscated those weapons before the groups met and hey guess what?! The "Proud" Boys suddenly decided they weren't so interested in fighting on a level playing field, and left suddenly within 45 minutes.
posted by msalt at 10:38 AM on August 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
Patriot Prayer and "Proud" Boys often carry thick wooden or thin metal rods, thinly disguised as "flagpoles," and are very experienced at using them in street fighting. (Some have infiltrated medieval LARPers to practice with "swords" and shields. They often wear tactical armor at rallies, too.)
At the August 17th rally in Portland, the police FINALLY confiscated those weapons before the groups met and hey guess what?! The "Proud" Boys suddenly decided they weren't so interested in fighting on a level playing field, and left suddenly within 45 minutes.
posted by msalt at 10:38 AM on August 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
/Another recording of the PP guys implicating Ngo And cementing the “they came to fight a fight” thing
posted by The Whelk at 2:46 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 2:46 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
The image at that link is likely a good time to remember that in ASL that 'white power' symbol is a reverse of the symbol for "asshole", meaning I guess "I am an asshole", delightfully self aware
posted by mbo at 3:54 PM on August 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by mbo at 3:54 PM on August 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
You think they're so dumb, you think they're so funny
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 PM on August 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Twitter won’t autoban neo-Nazis because the filters may ban GOP politicians
posted by zombieflanders at 6:28 AM on August 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 6:28 AM on August 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
Well this is an interesting development:
Former Marine said he’d ‘slaughter’ antifa. The FBI, using Oregon’s new red flag law, took his guns away
posted by chrchr at 10:10 PM on August 30, 2019 [9 favorites]
Former Marine said he’d ‘slaughter’ antifa. The FBI, using Oregon’s new red flag law, took his guns away
posted by chrchr at 10:10 PM on August 30, 2019 [9 favorites]
The extensive deprogramming groups out there that address white supremacists and deprogrammed white supremacists themselves will point out that successful deprogramming requires a lot of talking and connection and decidedly not violence. The majority of followers of extremist ideologies, including white supremacy, need the same thing, which is a member of the opposition reaching out and dialoguing in an excruciatingly patient manner. It requires a great deal of emotional labor
It requires a great deal of proper organized efforts, and not necessarily directly from the opposition. For instance, the non-profit organization linked above by benzenedream was co-founded by former white extremists. I posted about one of them and interestingly in one recent interview he was also asked (at the end) about antifa and here’s his answer:
It requires a great deal of proper organized efforts, and not necessarily directly from the opposition. For instance, the non-profit organization linked above by benzenedream was co-founded by former white extremists. I posted about one of them and interestingly in one recent interview he was also asked (at the end) about antifa and here’s his answer:
– Do you agree with Antifa’s strategy of direct action?posted by bitteschoen at 8:48 AM on August 31, 2019 [5 favorites]
– I don’t agree with some of their tactics — trust me, nobody changes their views by getting hit in the head with a bottle of urine — but I can’t say that I don’t support their mission because they really are the voice against the [white supremacist] movement.
We have to look back at our grandfathers and people who were in resistance movements during World War II. If it weren’t for them, so many more people would’ve died. These people are hailed as heroes, and we’re demonizing the people now who are doing that.
Two big alt-right /white nationalist events today being covered on Twitter
The MINDS conference, which looks like an alt-right media/YouTube convention which has some charming lines as “this panel involves count dankula discussing the “future of comedy”. dankula says: “if you see someone saying racism is bad, nazis are bad, white supremacists are bad, i assume they’ve probably raped someone.”l coverage by Thalia Levin
And the Straight Pride Parade in Boston, where the police had a bigger presence then the marchers and seemingly pepper sprayed/arrested people at random. Coverage By Socialist Dog Mom.
posted by The Whelk at 12:57 PM on August 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
The MINDS conference, which looks like an alt-right media/YouTube convention which has some charming lines as “this panel involves count dankula discussing the “future of comedy”. dankula says: “if you see someone saying racism is bad, nazis are bad, white supremacists are bad, i assume they’ve probably raped someone.”l coverage by Thalia Levin
And the Straight Pride Parade in Boston, where the police had a bigger presence then the marchers and seemingly pepper sprayed/arrested people at random. Coverage By Socialist Dog Mom.
posted by The Whelk at 12:57 PM on August 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
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