Astroturfing in a time of Quarantine
April 19, 2020 7:33 AM Subscribe
Recent anti-quarantine protests are centrally coordinated Reddit user Dr_Midnight does a little digging and discovers that the anti-quarantine protests are a coordinated effort, with related websites all coming from a single source.
There's an imperial ton of astroturfing going on, and it's quite visible in how those groups popped up literally overnight (hint-hint). The thing is that they targeted groups who were... how does one say... more receptive to the message who wouldn't be inclined to look any deeper into what they were joining.
For anyone who is not familiar with the term "astroturfing", here's a definition: posted by Fizz at 7:49 AM on April 19, 2020 [35 favorites]
I think that "centrally coordinated" is a stretch. I think it's just as easy to assume that someone saw the protests in a couple of states and tried to cash in. That didn't mean there is zero communication between them, but the posts I read didn't reach that level of confirmation.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:51 AM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:51 AM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
Why hasn t this been reported by a news outlet?
posted by eustatic at 7:51 AM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 7:51 AM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
It has been. It's one of these examples of someone "discovering" something through their own channel that's already pretty well established. Reddit rushes to claim credit, etc. etc.
posted by Miko at 7:55 AM on April 19, 2020 [22 favorites]
posted by Miko at 7:55 AM on April 19, 2020 [22 favorites]
I’m not making this up: NYT print headline re: rally of 100 people in TX claims it’s proof of protests “sweeping nation”
posted by tonycpsu at 7:58 AM on April 19, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 7:58 AM on April 19, 2020 [20 favorites]
@CheeseDigestsAll: You really haven't read the post, have you?
All domains registered from Florida, all at the same time.
WTF does Florida have to do with those three states (and the others registered)? I know of one orange cheeto who lives there and has multiple confederates being run from there ...
There's a difference between scepticism and willful ignorance.
posted by MacD at 8:02 AM on April 19, 2020 [62 favorites]
All domains registered from Florida, all at the same time.
WTF does Florida have to do with those three states (and the others registered)? I know of one orange cheeto who lives there and has multiple confederates being run from there ...
There's a difference between scepticism and willful ignorance.
posted by MacD at 8:02 AM on April 19, 2020 [62 favorites]
NY Times
Buzzfeed
Crooks and Liars
Common Dreams
Columbia Journalism Review
all predate the Reddit thread.
I'm not saying it's not great to further establish the chains of connection - just that it's not like reporters at news outlets missed this.
posted by Miko at 8:03 AM on April 19, 2020 [40 favorites]
Buzzfeed
Crooks and Liars
Common Dreams
Columbia Journalism Review
all predate the Reddit thread.
I'm not saying it's not great to further establish the chains of connection - just that it's not like reporters at news outlets missed this.
posted by Miko at 8:03 AM on April 19, 2020 [40 favorites]
This is my surprised face.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:03 AM on April 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 8:03 AM on April 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
This would be my surprised face if leopards hadn't eaten it.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:05 AM on April 19, 2020 [74 favorites]
posted by deadaluspark at 8:05 AM on April 19, 2020 [74 favorites]
"more likely that it’s a small digital shop in DC/Arlington/Alexandria that’s on retainer from some Trump-aligned group and some developer with questionable morals had to crank out all these sites in a few days."
Clearly in Florida, not Alexandria, but it sure smells like this guy. It was my immediate instinct that it had a Brad Parscale feel, and look what Politico says: "Campaign manager Brad Parscale is a new resident of Fort Lauderdale, where the campaign’s chief pollster, Tony Fabrizio, and on-again, off-again Trump adviser Roger Stone also reside."
posted by Miko at 8:11 AM on April 19, 2020 [24 favorites]
Clearly in Florida, not Alexandria, but it sure smells like this guy. It was my immediate instinct that it had a Brad Parscale feel, and look what Politico says: "Campaign manager Brad Parscale is a new resident of Fort Lauderdale, where the campaign’s chief pollster, Tony Fabrizio, and on-again, off-again Trump adviser Roger Stone also reside."
posted by Miko at 8:11 AM on April 19, 2020 [24 favorites]
My BIL is into Q etc and while I’ve socially removed myself from him such that I don’t know if his online activities are cynical in-group agit-prop spreading or he’s just a dupe, I can tell he’s plugged into a quite a powerful meatspace botnet as it were.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:17 AM on April 19, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:17 AM on April 19, 2020 [19 favorites]
"meatspace botnet"
posted by mecran01 at 8:18 AM on April 19, 2020 [78 favorites]
posted by mecran01 at 8:18 AM on April 19, 2020 [78 favorites]
So this is the 2020 tea party? I'm not sure it's as effective. For one, people will die from it and if they are dead, they can't vote.
posted by mumimor at 8:21 AM on April 19, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 8:21 AM on April 19, 2020 [9 favorites]
For one, people will die from it and if they are dead, they can't vote.
The downside is the there no guarantee that the people who will die will be the people being dumb and spreading the disease.
If the fact that we live in the darkest timeline is any indicator, the dumbest will somehow live and spread the disease to many who never showed up to protest. They'll view the fact that they lived as proof they were "chosen by god" or some malarkey.
That's the real issue here, if it only affected the dumbfucks doing the protest, it would be fine, because their body, their choice. However, their body affects others in this regard.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:23 AM on April 19, 2020 [59 favorites]
The downside is the there no guarantee that the people who will die will be the people being dumb and spreading the disease.
If the fact that we live in the darkest timeline is any indicator, the dumbest will somehow live and spread the disease to many who never showed up to protest. They'll view the fact that they lived as proof they were "chosen by god" or some malarkey.
That's the real issue here, if it only affected the dumbfucks doing the protest, it would be fine, because their body, their choice. However, their body affects others in this regard.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:23 AM on April 19, 2020 [59 favorites]
I also wonder if this is the moment astroturfing protests runs right into the fact that a fair bit of their protestors are extremely vulnerable to the illness they are protesting in connection to.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 8:24 AM on April 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by lesbiassparrow at 8:24 AM on April 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
their body, their choice
No small number of people on Twitter have noted the irony there.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:25 AM on April 19, 2020 [46 favorites]
No small number of people on Twitter have noted the irony there.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:25 AM on April 19, 2020 [46 favorites]
Absolutely, deadaluspark, and I'm not wishing death on anyone, not even the trumpists. It was more that I was thinking that both the tea party and the 2016 Trump movement had some sort of (wrong) logic to them. This is just a death cult. It makes no sense at all.
posted by mumimor at 8:27 AM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 8:27 AM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
Oh basically everything about these protests is unintentionally ironic.
I saw a sign that said PROFIT OVER PEOPLE #MAGA2020.
They obviously think they are protesting profit over people, not the exact opposite.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:27 AM on April 19, 2020 [9 favorites]
I saw a sign that said PROFIT OVER PEOPLE #MAGA2020.
They obviously think they are protesting profit over people, not the exact opposite.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:27 AM on April 19, 2020 [9 favorites]
Am I missing something in the reddit thread? Dr. Midnight says:
anyone who feels inclined to can go to https://whois.godaddy.com and search for reopenmd.com. I myself would be personally curious as to why someone in Florida is registering domains claiming to be gun rights organizations in other states.
When I do go to whois.godaddy and search that, I get another "Domains by Proxy" result, and not what he's describing. Does anyone more familiar with this know what I'm supposed to be seeing? Or did the bad actor go in and change the registration to a proxy domain after this broke?
posted by Miko at 8:29 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
anyone who feels inclined to can go to https://whois.godaddy.com and search for reopenmd.com. I myself would be personally curious as to why someone in Florida is registering domains claiming to be gun rights organizations in other states.
When I do go to whois.godaddy and search that, I get another "Domains by Proxy" result, and not what he's describing. Does anyone more familiar with this know what I'm supposed to be seeing? Or did the bad actor go in and change the registration to a proxy domain after this broke?
posted by Miko at 8:29 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Or did the bad actor go in and change the registration to a proxy domain after this broke?
That's most likely a Bingo.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:30 AM on April 19, 2020 [19 favorites]
That's most likely a Bingo.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:30 AM on April 19, 2020 [19 favorites]
Very into the US closing its borders now.
posted by pompomtom at 8:38 AM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by pompomtom at 8:38 AM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
So reddit didn't break it first is the new topic, I suppose.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 8:44 AM on April 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 8:44 AM on April 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
I also wonder if this is the moment astroturfing protests runs right into the fact that a fair bit of their protestors are extremely vulnerable to the illness they are protesting in connection to.
Yeah, you're thinning out the ranks of your supporters by encouraging them to gather in public.
posted by mecran01 at 8:44 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yeah, you're thinning out the ranks of your supporters by encouraging them to gather in public.
posted by mecran01 at 8:44 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
That's the kind of move that only a leadership that doesn't know how anything fucking works would make.
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 AM on April 19, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 AM on April 19, 2020 [19 favorites]
There was some interesting speculation in the reddit thread about health insurance companies potentially using participation in the rallies as a basis for exclusion from coverage for COVID.
If it came to that, though, I think they'd be reined in by Cheeto Mussolini.
posted by Miko at 8:46 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
If it came to that, though, I think they'd be reined in by Cheeto Mussolini.
posted by Miko at 8:46 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Or did the bad actor go in and change the registration to a proxy domain after this broke?
As a side note, fuck reddits overzealous attitude toward "doxing."
The OP wouldn't post the guys name, because he didn't want to risk his account being shut down, but for fucks sake, that information is worthwhile, credible, and newsworthy.
Acting like someone who is operating a propaganda organizations name needs to be protected in situations like this just shows the libertarian lunacy of reddits leaders.
Because I'm wondering who, if anyone, was able to get this skeevy fuckers name before he changed it because of reddits rules that prevented that specific information from being shared.
What happened to the days of Digg when they were told not to post the key to copying blu-ray discs, every user mass copied and pasted the offending information to nearly every comment for weeks. ("They can't ban all of us")
Why is it nerds only stand up for stupid shit like that, but not for, you know, real political shit.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:56 AM on April 19, 2020 [23 favorites]
As a side note, fuck reddits overzealous attitude toward "doxing."
The OP wouldn't post the guys name, because he didn't want to risk his account being shut down, but for fucks sake, that information is worthwhile, credible, and newsworthy.
Acting like someone who is operating a propaganda organizations name needs to be protected in situations like this just shows the libertarian lunacy of reddits leaders.
Because I'm wondering who, if anyone, was able to get this skeevy fuckers name before he changed it because of reddits rules that prevented that specific information from being shared.
What happened to the days of Digg when they were told not to post the key to copying blu-ray discs, every user mass copied and pasted the offending information to nearly every comment for weeks. ("They can't ban all of us")
Why is it nerds only stand up for stupid shit like that, but not for, you know, real political shit.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:56 AM on April 19, 2020 [23 favorites]
I'm wondering who, if anyone, was able to get this skeevy fuckers name
I did my best to raise this up toward the visibility of pro journalists and hope others will too. It's possible that a private conversation w/ Dr. Midnight could yield some threads that he feels unable to post on reddit.
posted by Miko at 8:59 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
I did my best to raise this up toward the visibility of pro journalists and hope others will too. It's possible that a private conversation w/ Dr. Midnight could yield some threads that he feels unable to post on reddit.
posted by Miko at 8:59 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Acting like someone who is operating a propaganda organizations name needs to be protected in situations like this just shows the libertarian lunacy of reddits leaders.
The "overzealous" attitude is due to this hellish, racist incident that also seemed "worthwhile, credible, and newsworthy" at the time.
posted by Ouverture at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2020 [43 favorites]
The "overzealous" attitude is due to this hellish, racist incident that also seemed "worthwhile, credible, and newsworthy" at the time.
posted by Ouverture at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2020 [43 favorites]
I myself would be personally curious as to why someone in Florida is registering domains claiming to be gun rights organizations in other states.
There is nothing preventing you from putting garbage in the address fields. Likely not the case in this specific instance, but gun rights orgs from all over the world could just enter in some poor bastards address in Florida when they registered their domains.
In ye olde times (1995 or so), registering a domain meant getting just all kinds of biz related shit in the mail (like ready to activate American Express cards!) since only businesses were really doing it. So, after hearing my dad go on an on about junk mail from his domain, I just made up a street in my neighborhood and used that for my domain contacts.
posted by sideshow at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
There is nothing preventing you from putting garbage in the address fields. Likely not the case in this specific instance, but gun rights orgs from all over the world could just enter in some poor bastards address in Florida when they registered their domains.
In ye olde times (1995 or so), registering a domain meant getting just all kinds of biz related shit in the mail (like ready to activate American Express cards!) since only businesses were really doing it. So, after hearing my dad go on an on about junk mail from his domain, I just made up a street in my neighborhood and used that for my domain contacts.
posted by sideshow at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
Stupid shit like that matters, and if nerds are standing up for that stupid shit, go nerds.
posted by Dumsnill at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Dumsnill at 9:00 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
They are insane - because their leader is insane
posted by growabrain at 9:02 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by growabrain at 9:02 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
That's the kind of move that only a leadership that doesn't know how anything fucking works would make.
Of course they don't know how anything fucking works. That is what is literally happening here in my opinion. People don't understand something. It becomes a black box. Whatever happens in there is magic or witchcraft. So they try to cast spells against it. Purge demons. Carry totems. Exile heretics. "Fire Fauci," open carry, "social distancing = communism." They're god's or liberty's soldiers fighting the hordes of darkness. Pure superstition.
Here's the thing:
It's weaponized Dunning-Kruger.
posted by tclark at 9:02 AM on April 19, 2020 [141 favorites]
Of course they don't know how anything fucking works. That is what is literally happening here in my opinion. People don't understand something. It becomes a black box. Whatever happens in there is magic or witchcraft. So they try to cast spells against it. Purge demons. Carry totems. Exile heretics. "Fire Fauci," open carry, "social distancing = communism." They're god's or liberty's soldiers fighting the hordes of darkness. Pure superstition.
Here's the thing:
- They do not understand the problem.
- They believe they're smart people.
- Therefore the problem cannot be understood.
- Therefore anyone who claims to understand the problem is lying. Commies trying to take away your freedom. Demons coming after your soul.
It's weaponized Dunning-Kruger.
posted by tclark at 9:02 AM on April 19, 2020 [141 favorites]
A little bit ton of column A, a little bit ton of column B.
Just like the discussion "Are we living in Huxley or Orwell's nightmare?"
It's both.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:05 AM on April 19, 2020 [17 favorites]
Just like the discussion "Are we living in Huxley or Orwell's nightmare?"
It's both.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:05 AM on April 19, 2020 [17 favorites]
This isn't insanity. This is wealthy people and organizations, who are anti-labor power, being frustrated that they are being legally prevented from forcing their workers to work in dangerous conditions.
Yes, there are plenty of people living with mental health conditions who are not fascists. There are plenty of fascists whose cruelty and malice are perfectly coherent (in their own awful worldview).
Besides, Trump is just the most uncouth and incompetent version of a fascist ruling class that has been running (and ruining) America for centuries.
The ableism is not only shitty, it also isn't accurate or useful.
posted by Ouverture at 9:08 AM on April 19, 2020 [30 favorites]
Yes, there are plenty of people living with mental health conditions who are not fascists. There are plenty of fascists whose cruelty and malice are perfectly coherent (in their own awful worldview).
Besides, Trump is just the most uncouth and incompetent version of a fascist ruling class that has been running (and ruining) America for centuries.
The ableism is not only shitty, it also isn't accurate or useful.
posted by Ouverture at 9:08 AM on April 19, 2020 [30 favorites]
What happened to the days of Digg when they were told not to post the key to copying blu-ray discs, every user mass copied and pasted the offending information to nearly every comment for weeks. ("They can't ban all of us")
It was for decoding DVDs (DVD-CSS!), not blu-rays. Also I still have my t-shirt with the key printed on it in a closet somewhere.
Why is it nerds only stand up for stupid shit like that, but not for, you know, real political shit.
Refusing to be sent to prison for just the knowledge of certain information (in this case, a relatively short hexadecimal string) because corporations were practically ordering the government to do so, is about as political as it gets. Last I checked, you can write anything you want on this website without the fear of incarceration because you made a business mad.
posted by sideshow at 9:11 AM on April 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
It was for decoding DVDs (DVD-CSS!), not blu-rays. Also I still have my t-shirt with the key printed on it in a closet somewhere.
Why is it nerds only stand up for stupid shit like that, but not for, you know, real political shit.
Refusing to be sent to prison for just the knowledge of certain information (in this case, a relatively short hexadecimal string) because corporations were practically ordering the government to do so, is about as political as it gets. Last I checked, you can write anything you want on this website without the fear of incarceration because you made a business mad.
posted by sideshow at 9:11 AM on April 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
Smart wealthy people, going all the way back to Henry Ford, know that you can get even richer if your workers can afford to buy your products. It's no coincidence that the rich people backing Trump are into stuff like oil, mining, wars and hedge funds. Non-productive stuff.
posted by mumimor at 9:13 AM on April 19, 2020 [25 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 9:13 AM on April 19, 2020 [25 favorites]
Refusing to be sent to prison for just the knowledge of certain information (in this case, a relatively short hexadecimal string) because corporations were practically ordering the government to do so
Wikipedia says nothing about people being imprisoned for this. It says Digg started banning accounts that posted it, and then when users freaked out, they reversed course. Digg was under threat of lawsuit, not threat of imprisonment.
They were being hit DMCA notices. I thought that was all stuff that didn't go to criminal courts since its all copyright related?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AACS_encryption_key_controversy#DMCA_notices_and_Digg
Yeah, big difference between "we're going to prison" and "they're banning our accounts." None of the people protesting were at risk of going to prison. In fact, I'm pretty sure it falls under Section 230, which protects websites from being responsible for the content posted by users.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:16 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Wikipedia says nothing about people being imprisoned for this. It says Digg started banning accounts that posted it, and then when users freaked out, they reversed course. Digg was under threat of lawsuit, not threat of imprisonment.
They were being hit DMCA notices. I thought that was all stuff that didn't go to criminal courts since its all copyright related?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AACS_encryption_key_controversy#DMCA_notices_and_Digg
Yeah, big difference between "we're going to prison" and "they're banning our accounts." None of the people protesting were at risk of going to prison. In fact, I'm pretty sure it falls under Section 230, which protects websites from being responsible for the content posted by users.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:16 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
you're thinning out the ranks of your supporters by encouraging them to gather in public
There are new ones born every minute
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:21 AM on April 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
There are new ones born every minute
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:21 AM on April 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
So how long will it take for those states that relax their social distancing restrictions to see a spike in both positive test and deaths from the virus?
posted by Beholder at 9:41 AM on April 19, 2020
posted by Beholder at 9:41 AM on April 19, 2020
2-3 weeks
posted by mumimor at 9:47 AM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 9:47 AM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
So how long will it take for those states that relax their social distancing restrictions to see a spike in both positive test and deaths from the virus?
Probably around as long as it took for Singapore's second wave to become visible. Seems around 3 weeks.
I suspect we may not see a spike in positive testing in advance of a spike in the death rate because we haven't caught up in the testing yet. The positivity rate is likely a more important indicator than the case rate.
posted by tclark at 9:47 AM on April 19, 2020 [13 favorites]
Probably around as long as it took for Singapore's second wave to become visible. Seems around 3 weeks.
I suspect we may not see a spike in positive testing in advance of a spike in the death rate because we haven't caught up in the testing yet. The positivity rate is likely a more important indicator than the case rate.
posted by tclark at 9:47 AM on April 19, 2020 [13 favorites]
2 weeks. First comes the spike in Wisconsin from people who literally martyred themselves to vote.
Then will come the morons and those who got infected by them.
posted by ocschwar at 9:48 AM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Then will come the morons and those who got infected by them.
posted by ocschwar at 9:48 AM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Look, I know I'm a bore about this shit, but this is MeFi, a site on the WORLD WIDE web, and I'd be happier if people (say like tclarks's comment above) didn't always assume that USAian lives are always the most important lives.
Maybe think for a moment who are the "we"?
posted by pompomtom at 10:02 AM on April 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
Maybe think for a moment who are the "we"?
posted by pompomtom at 10:02 AM on April 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
"This isn't insanity. This is wealthy people and organizations, who are anti-labor power, being frustrated that they are being legally prevented from forcing their workers to work in dangerous conditions.
posted by Rock 'em Sock 'em[!]"
For once. And this still only applies to the companies that aren't getting away with it.
Amazon most certainly is.
posted by Jacen at 10:03 AM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Rock 'em Sock 'em[!]"
For once. And this still only applies to the companies that aren't getting away with it.
Amazon most certainly is.
posted by Jacen at 10:03 AM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
Smart wealthy people, going all the way back to Henry Ford, know that you can get even richer if your workers can afford to buy your products.
That used to be true. Now many of them make most of their money betting on optimism about the future profitability of their company which means driving down wages in the short term. For those companies the product is only a means of manipulating the stock price.
posted by klanawa at 10:10 AM on April 19, 2020 [25 favorites]
I'd be happier if people (say like tclarks's comment above) didn't always assume that USAian lives are always the most important lives.
Give me a break, dude, I was answering a question specifically about US states and quoted the question in my comment.
posted by tclark at 10:16 AM on April 19, 2020 [53 favorites]
Give me a break, dude, I was answering a question specifically about US states and quoted the question in my comment.
posted by tclark at 10:16 AM on April 19, 2020 [53 favorites]
There is nothing preventing you from putting garbage in the address fields. Likely not the case in this specific instance, but gun rights orgs from all over the world could just enter in some poor bastards address in Florida when they registered their domains.
That's very true. It is also true that, by default, most registrars will apply whatever contact details you have used for previous domain registrations. Most folks aren't that bright.
posted by wierdo at 10:19 AM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
That's very true. It is also true that, by default, most registrars will apply whatever contact details you have used for previous domain registrations. Most folks aren't that bright.
posted by wierdo at 10:19 AM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
My apologies to tclark.
posted by pompomtom at 10:35 AM on April 19, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by pompomtom at 10:35 AM on April 19, 2020 [17 favorites]
Last I checked, you can write anything you want on this website without the fear of incarceration because you made a business mad.
Shhhhhhh, Tom Cruise might hear us.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:35 AM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
Shhhhhhh, Tom Cruise might hear us.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:35 AM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
By calling them essential workers, business can both praise and exploit them simultaneously, and it's going to be tough for these governors to weasel out of responsibility when the numbers spike.
posted by Beholder at 10:37 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 10:37 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
See also The rightwing groups behind wave of protests against Covid-19 restrictions.
What's most terrifying to me isn't just that it's a coordinated right wing campaign to undermine health. It's that the President of the United Sates is working in cooperation with them, issuing terrifying tweets using the language of civil war. Presumably they are fully coordinating behind the scenes, it's a classic Bannonesque sort of play. It is incredibly dangerous to democracy.
posted by Nelson at 10:49 AM on April 19, 2020 [51 favorites]
What's most terrifying to me isn't just that it's a coordinated right wing campaign to undermine health. It's that the President of the United Sates is working in cooperation with them, issuing terrifying tweets using the language of civil war. Presumably they are fully coordinating behind the scenes, it's a classic Bannonesque sort of play. It is incredibly dangerous to democracy.
posted by Nelson at 10:49 AM on April 19, 2020 [51 favorites]
It all looks like 'owning the "libs"' to me.
posted by ZeusHumms at 11:00 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 11:00 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
As a "lib" if I just admit we've been owned and, boy, I've been shown and I'm so embarrassed, can we have a functional government again?
posted by jzb at 11:04 AM on April 19, 2020 [35 favorites]
posted by jzb at 11:04 AM on April 19, 2020 [35 favorites]
I mean, I don’t want to underplay the danger to democracy, but I really think this is a foolish move on the part of the Trump cult. They’re associating him/themselves with an approach that is happening in some states already and is going to lead to a bunch more deaths and serious illnesses. I really think they don’t know how to acknowledge the reality of the pandemic and thus don’t know how to respond—they’re acting like their usual approaches and dirty tricks will work but the virus doesn’t care what their propaganda says.
posted by overglow at 11:20 AM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by overglow at 11:20 AM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
Corporate astroturfing motivated by frustration about not being able to operate businesses as usual seems less likely in this case than far right "accelerationist" efforts to sow chaos to hasten the collapse of society and build a white supremacist one in its place [Guardian].
posted by heatherlogan at 11:22 AM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 11:22 AM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
Yes, @MacD, I read not only the article, but a number of posts downthread, such as:
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:39 AM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
The Jacksonville, FL address in question belongs to a company that is offering to sterilize n95 face masks ... by leasing his machines to hospitals which cost $139,000 each “[b]ecause Eco Relics has been hard hit economically by the coronavirus pandemic.”and
I did even more digging and all the links that actually have websites are redirected. They take you to "non-profit" radical gun rights groups that basically believe the Republicans and NRA are too soft on gun control and actually lost there non-profit designation in 2016. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox9.com/news/minnesota-gun-group-says-its-a-nonprofit-but-was-revoked.ampand
The Dorr brothers and some friends run all of the websites that are active and most likely started all the Facebook groups.
The same guy registering those sites is actively trying to profit off of coronavirus by saying that his industrial kilns are perfect for sterilizing masks and trying to rent them out to hospitals.and
These groups are all apparently run by the “Dorr Brothers.” Never heard of them but they have a very shady history and their organizations may not be nonprofits at all.So I think there's enough evidence to say that someone trying to profit off the protests is just as likely as Koch or DeVos controlled astroturfing.
https://www.fox9.com/news/minnesota-gun-group-says-its-a-nonprofit-but-was-revoked
There’s even this: https://www.dorrbrotherscams.com/?m=1 although that’s a pretty right wing source that seems to be mad they’re calling Republicans too soft on gun rights.
I’ll be honest. This sounds more a money-grabbing scam than a political conspiracy. These groups are run by four horrible people who will do anything attention-grabbing to direct people to their fake non-profits in order to make money. They don’t even have to actually organize the protests. Just get people to show up and bam. Free advertising
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:39 AM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
With regard to when secondary, tertiary, etc waves would be come obvious, the answer depends on whether adequate is being testing done. Which there is not. This is at least partly by design from Trump and the GOP in order to keep the numbers low to justify their economic re-opening, aka sending the peasants back to the mines while the dust of the last cave-in is still thick enough to obscure the bodies of the first victims.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 11:58 AM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 11:58 AM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
It's pretty clear Trump planning and logic only extends this far:
1. What's good for Trump himself
2. What the people immediately in front of him want to hear
On Friday in a conference call he told the governors to open states at speeds that are good for their states. Friday on twitter and on Saturday at the podium he encouraged his supporters to liberate themselves from the governors.
I know we all know this, and that he doesn't actually stand for anything or have any morals, and it feels like screaming into the wind at this point, but I don't think there's been as an example as obvious or in as short of a time span as this.
posted by Blue Tsunami at 12:00 PM on April 19, 2020 [24 favorites]
1. What's good for Trump himself
2. What the people immediately in front of him want to hear
On Friday in a conference call he told the governors to open states at speeds that are good for their states. Friday on twitter and on Saturday at the podium he encouraged his supporters to liberate themselves from the governors.
I know we all know this, and that he doesn't actually stand for anything or have any morals, and it feels like screaming into the wind at this point, but I don't think there's been as an example as obvious or in as short of a time span as this.
posted by Blue Tsunami at 12:00 PM on April 19, 2020 [24 favorites]
I got a screencap of the registrant for reopenmd.com before it was deleted. The fact that the information was deleted would seem to suggest that the domain does in fact belong to the person whose name and address was registered.
Mods, what's the policy here?
posted by FeatherWatt at 12:03 PM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Mods, what's the policy here?
posted by FeatherWatt at 12:03 PM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Policy is no doxxing.
posted by jessamyn at 12:19 PM on April 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 12:19 PM on April 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
'As a side note, fuck reddits overzealous attitude toward "doxing."'
As jessamyn notes, that is also Metafilter's policy. There are plenty of places on the internet that are okay with it.. 4chan, I assume, is one.
posted by el io at 12:29 PM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
As jessamyn notes, that is also Metafilter's policy. There are plenty of places on the internet that are okay with it.. 4chan, I assume, is one.
posted by el io at 12:29 PM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
Also you can send the screenshot to one or all of the journalists whose articles on this are linked up thread, in case they somehow don’t have the info already.
posted by nat at 12:34 PM on April 19, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by nat at 12:34 PM on April 19, 2020 [11 favorites]
The reddit sleuthing is out there on twitter and is being retweeted by journalists and influencer-types. One of the replies shows the registration info with names redacted if you want to point to something that shows coordination without being all doxxy:
[1] I queried the domain registration information for all 50 states + DC (reopen{STATE}). They all exist, and most were registered in the past week. 33 of these domains were registered to the same individual in Florida on 4/17Also this thread from Jared Yates Sexton is good, twitter|threader:
[2] Another 4 were registered on 4/14 to another individual in Florida
[3] An additional 9 were registered through a proxy service
So. We got into it in the new Muckrake Podcast, but we need to talk about the American history of pseudo-events, fake protests, fabricated movements, and the type of psychological propaganda Trump and the Right Wing are using to "reopen" America. 1/posted by peeedro at 1:10 PM on April 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
As noted by someone on twitter: Everybody knew that the Tea Party was astroturf bullshit treated credulously by a complicit or naive media. The only way out of this is left organizing that gives the bored and spectacle hungry something to see, and gives people a sense of utility and control.
Another thing noted on twitter: That these rallies are likely to have negative health impacts on the participants is something which will be blamed on minorities, especially Asians, blacks and Native Americans, and used as a justification for further white nationalist rhetoric.
posted by klangklangston at 1:42 PM on April 19, 2020 [10 favorites]
Another thing noted on twitter: That these rallies are likely to have negative health impacts on the participants is something which will be blamed on minorities, especially Asians, blacks and Native Americans, and used as a justification for further white nationalist rhetoric.
posted by klangklangston at 1:42 PM on April 19, 2020 [10 favorites]
Very into the US closing its borders now.
I predict that in a week or two you will have the actually united states agreeing to close their borders to the Re-Open states which of course will be a big legal snafu and perhaps trigger a constitutional crisis. So once again in this crisis Americans will be fighting over absurdly overvalued paper.
posted by srboisvert at 1:54 PM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
I predict that in a week or two you will have the actually united states agreeing to close their borders to the Re-Open states which of course will be a big legal snafu and perhaps trigger a constitutional crisis. So once again in this crisis Americans will be fighting over absurdly overvalued paper.
posted by srboisvert at 1:54 PM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
What the anti-stay-at-home protests are really about - Vox, Jane Coaston, Apr 19, 2020 • 'They’re part of a Trumpian strategy from some conservative groups to reshape public opinion.'
But these protests aren’t reflective of public opinion — far from it. The vast majority of Americans are continuing to support social distancing policies and are more worried about stay-at-home restrictions being lifted too soon. As conservative writer Matthew Continetti wrote in the Washington Free Beacon:posted by ZeusHumms at 2:15 PM on April 19, 2020 [27 favorites]Americans are not avoiding unnecessary physical proximity to people outside their household for the fun of it. Nor have they radically altered their daily routines because Gretchen Whitmer said so. They have seen the rate at which the coronavirus spreads. They have read or watched the virus kill young and old, black and white, rich and poor. They do not need Hobbes to remind them of their fear of violent death.
It was not media-induced panic but common sense that modified American behavior. The public is split on whether to trust the media. It is united in its embrace of social distancing.
> 2 weeks. First comes the spike in Wisconsin from people who literally martyred themselves to vote.
@atrios: For better or worse some dems risked their lives to vote in wisconsin but that is less interesting as an expresion of democracy to your colleagues than some paid psychos trying to kill everyone on behalf of billionaires
posted by tonycpsu at 2:17 PM on April 19, 2020 [20 favorites]
@atrios: For better or worse some dems risked their lives to vote in wisconsin but that is less interesting as an expresion of democracy to your colleagues than some paid psychos trying to kill everyone on behalf of billionaires
posted by tonycpsu at 2:17 PM on April 19, 2020 [20 favorites]
more receptive to the message who wouldn't be inclined to look any deeper into what they were joining.
Umm . . . a nice way to say dumb?
posted by birdhaus at 2:42 PM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Umm . . . a nice way to say dumb?
posted by birdhaus at 2:42 PM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Why are these idiots marching armed? Are they going to shoot the virus?
I’m curious what the reaction from these patriots would’ve been if at the last big women’s march half the women marching were toting rifles.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 2:49 PM on April 19, 2020 [16 favorites]
I’m curious what the reaction from these patriots would’ve been if at the last big women’s march half the women marching were toting rifles.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 2:49 PM on April 19, 2020 [16 favorites]
Why are these idiots marching armed? Are they going to shoot the virus?
In America, guns are plumage.
posted by mhoye at 2:51 PM on April 19, 2020 [75 favorites]
In America, guns are plumage.
posted by mhoye at 2:51 PM on April 19, 2020 [75 favorites]
I’m curious what the reaction from these patriots would’ve been if at the last big women’s march half the women marching were toting rifles.
Well there's something we haven't tried yet....
posted by Miko at 2:51 PM on April 19, 2020 [25 favorites]
Well there's something we haven't tried yet....
posted by Miko at 2:51 PM on April 19, 2020 [25 favorites]
I’m curious what the reaction from these patriots would’ve been if at the last big women’s march half the women marching were toting rifles.
NRA supported gun control when Black Panthers had the weapons.
We know exactly what the reaction would have been. These dipshits are literally spouting "my body, my choice" right now. They have no shame, no sense of memory of their previous actions, and no intent to face any cognitive dissonance.
They don't give one fuck as long as it owns the libs.
posted by deadaluspark at 2:52 PM on April 19, 2020 [35 favorites]
NRA supported gun control when Black Panthers had the weapons.
We know exactly what the reaction would have been. These dipshits are literally spouting "my body, my choice" right now. They have no shame, no sense of memory of their previous actions, and no intent to face any cognitive dissonance.
They don't give one fuck as long as it owns the libs.
posted by deadaluspark at 2:52 PM on April 19, 2020 [35 favorites]
NRA supported gun control when Black Panthers had the weapons.
Yeah...that was a completely different NRA than what exists today.
posted by Miko at 3:09 PM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Yeah...that was a completely different NRA than what exists today.
posted by Miko at 3:09 PM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Yeah...that was a completely different NRA than what exists today.
You'd think so, but their yawning silence at police shootings of black men with concealed-carry permits or peaceably open-carrying in open carry states says otherwise.
posted by tclark at 3:16 PM on April 19, 2020 [34 favorites]
You'd think so, but their yawning silence at police shootings of black men with concealed-carry permits or peaceably open-carrying in open carry states says otherwise.
posted by tclark at 3:16 PM on April 19, 2020 [34 favorites]
My guess is that there will soon be rumors (at least) of infective 'libruls' attending these protests to try and take down the 'good honest arm-bearing Americans who are the backbone of this Country' — and that if a lot of them do end up getting sick, that's what they'll try to blame it on.
posted by jamjam at 3:25 PM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by jamjam at 3:25 PM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yeah...that was a completely different NRA than what exists today.
It hasn't changed that much.
Both Red and Blue America overwhelmingly supported an assault weapons import ban when Easy-E and NWA were posing with AK-47s on their album covers, and both sides of the aisle worked to pass the 1994 ban when Death Row records was in its heyday. Even ex-president Reagan was very vocal about his support for it.
Do you honestly think that could have happened if the 90s popular culture's view of "man with an assault weapon" looked more like today's Y'all Kaida wannabe white militia member -- and not a scowling black guy wearing 10 pounds of gold chains and a grill?
posted by toxic at 4:13 PM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
It hasn't changed that much.
Both Red and Blue America overwhelmingly supported an assault weapons import ban when Easy-E and NWA were posing with AK-47s on their album covers, and both sides of the aisle worked to pass the 1994 ban when Death Row records was in its heyday. Even ex-president Reagan was very vocal about his support for it.
Do you honestly think that could have happened if the 90s popular culture's view of "man with an assault weapon" looked more like today's Y'all Kaida wannabe white militia member -- and not a scowling black guy wearing 10 pounds of gold chains and a grill?
posted by toxic at 4:13 PM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
Denver nurses block traffic to counter-protest astroturf rally
posted by Miko at 4:18 PM on April 19, 2020 [42 favorites]
posted by Miko at 4:18 PM on April 19, 2020 [42 favorites]
Why is it nerds only stand up for stupid shit like that, but not for, you know, real political shit.
Because nerds were largely of one mind on that.
Partisan politics has been poisoned for a lot of self-identified nerds, because it's easy to look at the swirling morass of arguments and slogans and complete nonsense on one side, and good ideas poorly argued on another, and assume it's all bullshit. If you'd asked me 25 years ago, I probably would have felt the same--that politics was a nasty waste of time.
We're taught, casually, culturally, that politics is full of liars. "Politicians are liars." So why pay attention to what any politician says? That cynicism makes people feel wise for not wasting time; like not getting into Lost. Because, after all, it's always the same old shit. (Because so many of the nerds active in these discussions are privileged enough to never hit rock bottom as a direct, observable result of the outcomes of these political debates.)
One more cynical reason, possibly, is because nerds like to be *right*. They were willing to go all in on something like DeCSS because they *understood* it, and feel comfortable telling others what's what when it comes to code.
Politics has its own arcana, and nerds who actively avoided it in the past might either feel at a disadvantage, or presume that, since it's being handled by fools, that it's foolishness not worth their time. Some of that is the leftover cultural assessment of politics as full of liars; some of it is arrogance borne of the idea that the things that these debate club preppies and Hermione Granger / Model UN types bored into can't possibly be a legitimate, useful system of addressing the world.
posted by pykrete jungle at 4:19 PM on April 19, 2020 [18 favorites]
Because nerds were largely of one mind on that.
Partisan politics has been poisoned for a lot of self-identified nerds, because it's easy to look at the swirling morass of arguments and slogans and complete nonsense on one side, and good ideas poorly argued on another, and assume it's all bullshit. If you'd asked me 25 years ago, I probably would have felt the same--that politics was a nasty waste of time.
We're taught, casually, culturally, that politics is full of liars. "Politicians are liars." So why pay attention to what any politician says? That cynicism makes people feel wise for not wasting time; like not getting into Lost. Because, after all, it's always the same old shit. (Because so many of the nerds active in these discussions are privileged enough to never hit rock bottom as a direct, observable result of the outcomes of these political debates.)
One more cynical reason, possibly, is because nerds like to be *right*. They were willing to go all in on something like DeCSS because they *understood* it, and feel comfortable telling others what's what when it comes to code.
Politics has its own arcana, and nerds who actively avoided it in the past might either feel at a disadvantage, or presume that, since it's being handled by fools, that it's foolishness not worth their time. Some of that is the leftover cultural assessment of politics as full of liars; some of it is arrogance borne of the idea that the things that these debate club preppies and Hermione Granger / Model UN types bored into can't possibly be a legitimate, useful system of addressing the world.
posted by pykrete jungle at 4:19 PM on April 19, 2020 [18 favorites]
Why are these idiots marching armed? Are they going to shoot the virus?
Honestly? To shoot people who might force them to disperse.
Presuming that the majority of the people actually at the rallies are true believers (the people cynically exploiting them are likely hoarding masks and ordering in their dinners), they're exercised because they think that they are being oppressed because now there's laws that tell them they can't live their lives the way they're used to. They see themselves as heroes and patriots. They're getting a thrill and a knot in the bottom of their stomachs because protesting is something out of the ordinary--it's evidence in itself that the world is upside down, that shit is going down. They're being told they can't do something they want to by visible state power, and that's new to them, so they think it's tyranny, and tyranny, as any sufficiently macho movie will tell you, is fought with guns.
The guns are there to shoot Mommy and Daddy who are telling them they can't eat the cookie dough.
posted by pykrete jungle at 4:25 PM on April 19, 2020 [27 favorites]
Honestly? To shoot people who might force them to disperse.
Presuming that the majority of the people actually at the rallies are true believers (the people cynically exploiting them are likely hoarding masks and ordering in their dinners), they're exercised because they think that they are being oppressed because now there's laws that tell them they can't live their lives the way they're used to. They see themselves as heroes and patriots. They're getting a thrill and a knot in the bottom of their stomachs because protesting is something out of the ordinary--it's evidence in itself that the world is upside down, that shit is going down. They're being told they can't do something they want to by visible state power, and that's new to them, so they think it's tyranny, and tyranny, as any sufficiently macho movie will tell you, is fought with guns.
The guns are there to shoot Mommy and Daddy who are telling them they can't eat the cookie dough.
posted by pykrete jungle at 4:25 PM on April 19, 2020 [27 favorites]
Why are these idiots marching armed? Are they going to shoot the virus?
They want to provoke a reaction.
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:33 PM on April 19, 2020 [9 favorites]
They want to provoke a reaction.
posted by ZeusHumms at 4:33 PM on April 19, 2020 [9 favorites]
For fun (not actually fun), I checked which domains were hosting a website, I tried every state plus DC:
reopenMN.com - redirect to Minnesota Gun Rights*
reopenNH.com - reopen petition
reopenNJ.com - reopen petition
reopenNC.com - t-shirts and bumpersticker store © 2020 Reopen America ReopenNC
reopenPA.com - redirect to Pennsylvania Firearms Association*
reopenSC.com - reopen petition, typo-rich, uses an image of the US flag with 49 stars and 12 stripes. How does that happen, are conservatives that bad at everything?
reopenTX.com - redirect to Reopen Texas Facebook page
reopenWA.com - discussion board
reopenWI.com - redirect to Wisconsin Firearms Coalition*
* These three appear to part of a network of purely astroturf organizations that have cookie-cutter websites, similar content, and use UPS Stores for mailing addresses.
posted by peeedro at 4:47 PM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
reopenMN.com - redirect to Minnesota Gun Rights*
reopenNH.com - reopen petition
reopenNJ.com - reopen petition
reopenNC.com - t-shirts and bumpersticker store © 2020 Reopen America ReopenNC
reopenPA.com - redirect to Pennsylvania Firearms Association*
reopenSC.com - reopen petition, typo-rich, uses an image of the US flag with 49 stars and 12 stripes. How does that happen, are conservatives that bad at everything?
reopenTX.com - redirect to Reopen Texas Facebook page
reopenWA.com - discussion board
reopenWI.com - redirect to Wisconsin Firearms Coalition*
* These three appear to part of a network of purely astroturf organizations that have cookie-cutter websites, similar content, and use UPS Stores for mailing addresses.
posted by peeedro at 4:47 PM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
The level to me of incomprehensible stupid is very high.
I mean I know they exist but thankfully not in my immediate world. But the fact that they exist at all is deeply worrying.
posted by adamvasco at 4:56 PM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
I mean I know they exist but thankfully not in my immediate world. But the fact that they exist at all is deeply worrying.
posted by adamvasco at 4:56 PM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
Seriously, don't read the comments on that twitter thread with the nurses blocking protesters in Colorado...
Jesus continues weeping
posted by Windopaene at 5:10 PM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Jesus continues weeping
posted by Windopaene at 5:10 PM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
The WaPo has coverage, Pro-gun activists using Facebook groups to push anti-quarantine protests:
A trio of far-right, pro-gun provocateurs is behind some of the largest Facebook groups calling for anti-quarantine protests around the country, offering the latest illustration that some seemingly organic demonstrations are being engineered by a network of conservative activists.posted by peeedro at 6:18 PM on April 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
The Facebook groups target Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York, and they appear to be the work of Ben Dorr, the political director of a group called “Minnesota Gun Rights,” and his siblings, Christopher and Aaron. By Sunday, the groups had roughly 200,000 members combined, and they continued to expand quickly, days after President Trump endorsed such protests by suggesting citizens should “liberate” their states.
As soon as I saw these protests, it was apparent that whether or not they are coordinated, the shittiest, Roger-Stoniest GOP campaign coordinators will surely be exploiting it and stoking these flames through November to either suppress votes by making people sick of politics altogether, or to scare voters by having more racist gun nuts protesting about state politics, COVID, or whatever while they hang around outside polling stations on election day. Hopefully it will have less impact with more voting by mail.
posted by p3t3 at 7:55 PM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by p3t3 at 7:55 PM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
NH resident here. A neighbor friend of mine tells me that flyers for the Concord, NH, protest called for meeting at the "Capitol Building." Everyone who lives here calls it the State House. Interesting data point.
posted by Toecutter at 7:55 PM on April 19, 2020 [37 favorites]
posted by Toecutter at 7:55 PM on April 19, 2020 [37 favorites]
This isn't insanity. This is wealthy people and organizations, who are anti-labor power, being frustrated that they are being legally prevented from forcing their workers to work in dangerous conditions.
You know, I really want to agree with you... but honestly I kinda doubt that the true 1% in this country are going to suffer much from this recession. Even if it's worse than the great depression, these people own wealth. All they need to do is hold on to what they have and wait it out. They'll be fine.
Here's an alternate take : what if there truly are a lot of people out there who are genuinely in pain because of the ongoing psychological and economic crisis, and various rightwing forces see this and are simply exploiting it? And if that is the case, why aren't leftwing forces doing the same? Isn't this what really happened during the Great Recession? The Tea Party effectively turned peoples' anger into a political movement, while the left channeled its energy into the politically useless Occupy movements?
Why are the rightwing always so much better at this than we are? It's frustrating.
posted by panama joe at 9:01 PM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
You know, I really want to agree with you... but honestly I kinda doubt that the true 1% in this country are going to suffer much from this recession. Even if it's worse than the great depression, these people own wealth. All they need to do is hold on to what they have and wait it out. They'll be fine.
Here's an alternate take : what if there truly are a lot of people out there who are genuinely in pain because of the ongoing psychological and economic crisis, and various rightwing forces see this and are simply exploiting it? And if that is the case, why aren't leftwing forces doing the same? Isn't this what really happened during the Great Recession? The Tea Party effectively turned peoples' anger into a political movement, while the left channeled its energy into the politically useless Occupy movements?
Why are the rightwing always so much better at this than we are? It's frustrating.
posted by panama joe at 9:01 PM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
while the left channeled its energy into the politically useless Occupy movements?
Conveniently leaving out the whole "FBI invaded the movement and helped tear it apart from the inside" part of the whole story, which more or less undermines the narrative that it was "politically useless."
Usually the Feds aren't desperate to shut down political groups that are "useless." Rather they just get to call them useless after using their vast resources to completely crush them and then act like they had nothing worthwhile to say to begin with while also promoting, hey, the Tea Party, fancy that.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:14 PM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
Conveniently leaving out the whole "FBI invaded the movement and helped tear it apart from the inside" part of the whole story, which more or less undermines the narrative that it was "politically useless."
Usually the Feds aren't desperate to shut down political groups that are "useless." Rather they just get to call them useless after using their vast resources to completely crush them and then act like they had nothing worthwhile to say to begin with while also promoting, hey, the Tea Party, fancy that.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:14 PM on April 19, 2020 [15 favorites]
And if that is the case, why aren't leftwing forces doing the same?
With this sort of thing, I've found it's often useful to challenge the framing a bit. Is it more likely that there isn't anybody doing Thing X I think should exist, or is it more likely that my awareness of such things is limited? (whether that's self-limited or "those sorts of things don't get traction in the information sources I consume" or something else is a natural follow-up question)
In your example case, we have "Tea Party vs. Occupy", which already seems a bit questionable to put head-to-head. Why not "Tea Party vs. Oakland Moms 4 Housing", to go with a recent group (insert another if you'd prefer)?
Why did Occupy get held up as the shining example of leftist protest?
Alternately, what was different about the Tea Party? This also seems relevant, in you have a group whose origins & funding is pretty well documented by this point. "Why aren't there shadowy Leftist billionaires willing to fund astroturf groups?" seems salient, though there there's also the problem of projection where the Right are already shouting various anti-Semitic things about just the suspicion of George Soros doing what the Kochs already do.
In another direction which I don't know is all that persuasive but matters to me, I think you got it in one with "simply trying to exploit it?". It's difficult to plan to exploit people when your fundamental goal is to eliminate exploitation. People manage to do it, through various levels of motivated reasoning, but I feel there's an asymmetry in tactics where what I can't stomach as unethical behavior is *lauded* on opposing sides. And to go "ends justify means" and borrow those tactics will fundamentally doom the outcome.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:17 PM on April 19, 2020 [16 favorites]
With this sort of thing, I've found it's often useful to challenge the framing a bit. Is it more likely that there isn't anybody doing Thing X I think should exist, or is it more likely that my awareness of such things is limited? (whether that's self-limited or "those sorts of things don't get traction in the information sources I consume" or something else is a natural follow-up question)
In your example case, we have "Tea Party vs. Occupy", which already seems a bit questionable to put head-to-head. Why not "Tea Party vs. Oakland Moms 4 Housing", to go with a recent group (insert another if you'd prefer)?
Why did Occupy get held up as the shining example of leftist protest?
Alternately, what was different about the Tea Party? This also seems relevant, in you have a group whose origins & funding is pretty well documented by this point. "Why aren't there shadowy Leftist billionaires willing to fund astroturf groups?" seems salient, though there there's also the problem of projection where the Right are already shouting various anti-Semitic things about just the suspicion of George Soros doing what the Kochs already do.
In another direction which I don't know is all that persuasive but matters to me, I think you got it in one with "simply trying to exploit it?". It's difficult to plan to exploit people when your fundamental goal is to eliminate exploitation. People manage to do it, through various levels of motivated reasoning, but I feel there's an asymmetry in tactics where what I can't stomach as unethical behavior is *lauded* on opposing sides. And to go "ends justify means" and borrow those tactics will fundamentally doom the outcome.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:17 PM on April 19, 2020 [16 favorites]
Why are these idiots marching armed? Are they going to shoot the virus?
It's to intimidate POC, primarily, and secondarily their political opponents; and to demonstrate that the cops will let them do it.
How do we still have to ask this question in 2020?
edited to add: the tactics that Patriot Prayer field-tested in Portland are being rolled out nationwide, and we'll see more of it before November.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:27 PM on April 19, 2020 [27 favorites]
It's to intimidate POC, primarily, and secondarily their political opponents; and to demonstrate that the cops will let them do it.
How do we still have to ask this question in 2020?
edited to add: the tactics that Patriot Prayer field-tested in Portland are being rolled out nationwide, and we'll see more of it before November.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:27 PM on April 19, 2020 [27 favorites]
less seriously, I wish Tom Izzo would've gone on TV and told all these assholes that they're embarrassing the state, and to go home.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:29 PM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:29 PM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Why did Occupy get held up as the shining example of leftist protest?
Occupy and the Tea Party were contemporary. They both sprang up around the same time, in response to the same conditions. The Tea Party was well-funded and well-organized, and effectively managed to channel peoples' anger into re-invigorating the Republican party -- kind of a feat, when you think about it. The Republican Party had just lost badly in a major election where many people blamed them for the country's poor conditions. The Occupy movement, on the other hand, was non-hierarchical and almost explicitly leaderless. Many of the loudest voices in the movement opposed the very idea of working with the Democratic Party or reforming it from within. As a result, the Republicans came out that period stronger, while the Democratic wave lost its momentum in a space of two years.
It's difficult to plan to exploit people when your fundamental goal is to eliminate exploitation.
Perhaps I should rephrase. Instead of exploiting people, perhaps a nobler goal would be to provide people with a useful channel for their anger? I think the first step would be admitting that a lot of people right now are in a lot of pain, both emotionally and economically. And while I don't doubt there's plenty of right-wing plotting going on, the right wingers wouldn't be able to get any traction at all if people weren't genuinely in pain.
I mean, it genuinely hurts to see people doing the wrong thing, the stupid thing, the destructive thing. But calling those people wrong, stupid, and destructive doesn't get us anywhere. Especially when our idealogical opponents are effectively validating their emotions and giving them an outlet -- however wrong, stupid, and destructive -- for their pain.
posted by panama joe at 9:37 PM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
Occupy and the Tea Party were contemporary. They both sprang up around the same time, in response to the same conditions. The Tea Party was well-funded and well-organized, and effectively managed to channel peoples' anger into re-invigorating the Republican party -- kind of a feat, when you think about it. The Republican Party had just lost badly in a major election where many people blamed them for the country's poor conditions. The Occupy movement, on the other hand, was non-hierarchical and almost explicitly leaderless. Many of the loudest voices in the movement opposed the very idea of working with the Democratic Party or reforming it from within. As a result, the Republicans came out that period stronger, while the Democratic wave lost its momentum in a space of two years.
It's difficult to plan to exploit people when your fundamental goal is to eliminate exploitation.
Perhaps I should rephrase. Instead of exploiting people, perhaps a nobler goal would be to provide people with a useful channel for their anger? I think the first step would be admitting that a lot of people right now are in a lot of pain, both emotionally and economically. And while I don't doubt there's plenty of right-wing plotting going on, the right wingers wouldn't be able to get any traction at all if people weren't genuinely in pain.
I mean, it genuinely hurts to see people doing the wrong thing, the stupid thing, the destructive thing. But calling those people wrong, stupid, and destructive doesn't get us anywhere. Especially when our idealogical opponents are effectively validating their emotions and giving them an outlet -- however wrong, stupid, and destructive -- for their pain.
posted by panama joe at 9:37 PM on April 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
Instead of exploiting people, perhaps a nobler goal would be to provide people with a useful channel for their anger?
From where I sit, there has been quite impressive mobilization on the far right to harness people's anger and blame it on the Democrats.
And quite impressive mobilization on the left to harness people's anger and blame it on.... the Democrats.
posted by tclark at 9:45 PM on April 19, 2020 [35 favorites]
From where I sit, there has been quite impressive mobilization on the far right to harness people's anger and blame it on the Democrats.
And quite impressive mobilization on the left to harness people's anger and blame it on.... the Democrats.
posted by tclark at 9:45 PM on April 19, 2020 [35 favorites]
Why are the rightwing always so much better at this than we are? It's frustrating.
Because the right wing is all about preserving, rather than challenging, well tested hierarchical forms of leadership and control. Consequently, those who would seek to place themselves at the centre of an astroturfing power structure designed to take advantage of the ordinary right winger's instinctive desire to find and follow a leader will do so without a moment spent questioning the ethics of it.
posted by flabdablet at 1:59 AM on April 20, 2020 [12 favorites]
Because the right wing is all about preserving, rather than challenging, well tested hierarchical forms of leadership and control. Consequently, those who would seek to place themselves at the centre of an astroturfing power structure designed to take advantage of the ordinary right winger's instinctive desire to find and follow a leader will do so without a moment spent questioning the ethics of it.
posted by flabdablet at 1:59 AM on April 20, 2020 [12 favorites]
pykrete jungle: They're being told they can't do something they want to by visible state power, and that's new to them, so they think it's tyranny, and tyranny, as any sufficiently macho movie will tell you, is fought with guns.
This is a great way of putting it, and goes a long way towards explaining the whole of right-wing thought in the United States. Freedom for my Republican acquaintances and family members = doing whatever the fuck I want, when I want, how I want, with no consequences, while those icky People I Don't Like are kept out of my way by state power, even if it means diminishing their own freedom up to and including directly or indirectly killing them. Rules should protect and not bind my kind of person, and bind/not protect the Other, etc.
The GOP has managed to sell rank, toddler-esque pique (motivated largely if not entirely by racism) as an actual branch of political thought. They take the absolute worst elements of human nature--rage, egotism, greed--and tell people it's not only ok to feel that way, it's NATURAL and RIGHT. It takes everything people are (correctly) ashamed of and sells it to them as "realism" and virtue. You don't have to think, just feel, because your feelings are universal and correct (hence the rhetoric about how libs are just "virtue-signalling"). It's a much more intuitive way to approach and interpret the world, and much more comforting because it seems so obvious.
The left and center-left, by contrast, pursue objectives which explicitly require currently-comfortable people to be less selfish, by identifying and empathizing with people beneath them in the neoliberal white-supremacist hierarchy. This is a WAY harder sell, especially in a culture saturated by prosperity gospel (and racism) and characterized by extreme economic precarity for all but the biggest winners (and racism). It's not just that the right are better marketers, their product is also easier to promote; their pitch, like all good marketing, can bypass logic and abstract ideas like "justice" and "structural inequality" to hit people right in the feels. Provided they "feel" a certain way, that is.
Why are the rightwing always so much better at this than we are? It's frustrating.
Along with flabdablet's analysis, I'd say it's also because they are absolutely ruthless and don't give a fuck about being right or about harming others, as long as they get what they want. Their enemies are well-defined, carefully-constructed caricatures, and fucking us up is as satisfying as actually achieving anything good for themselves, if not more so. It's an attitude which lets you be highly agile and manipulative both rhetoricically and tactically, whilst your opponents struggle to balance winning with things like, idk, intellectual honesty.
It's also important to remember that our political system already favors them by giving their electoral strongholds vastly more representative weight per person than "blue" areas. They started consolidating this existing structural advantage (gerrymandering being only one example) way before your average Democratic voter even caught on to what was happening. The support of almost the entire billionaire class doesn't hurt either. (Witness their bizarre fixation on George Soros, which is 110% projection.)
posted by peakes at 2:54 AM on April 20, 2020 [43 favorites]
This is a great way of putting it, and goes a long way towards explaining the whole of right-wing thought in the United States. Freedom for my Republican acquaintances and family members = doing whatever the fuck I want, when I want, how I want, with no consequences, while those icky People I Don't Like are kept out of my way by state power, even if it means diminishing their own freedom up to and including directly or indirectly killing them. Rules should protect and not bind my kind of person, and bind/not protect the Other, etc.
The GOP has managed to sell rank, toddler-esque pique (motivated largely if not entirely by racism) as an actual branch of political thought. They take the absolute worst elements of human nature--rage, egotism, greed--and tell people it's not only ok to feel that way, it's NATURAL and RIGHT. It takes everything people are (correctly) ashamed of and sells it to them as "realism" and virtue. You don't have to think, just feel, because your feelings are universal and correct (hence the rhetoric about how libs are just "virtue-signalling"). It's a much more intuitive way to approach and interpret the world, and much more comforting because it seems so obvious.
The left and center-left, by contrast, pursue objectives which explicitly require currently-comfortable people to be less selfish, by identifying and empathizing with people beneath them in the neoliberal white-supremacist hierarchy. This is a WAY harder sell, especially in a culture saturated by prosperity gospel (and racism) and characterized by extreme economic precarity for all but the biggest winners (and racism). It's not just that the right are better marketers, their product is also easier to promote; their pitch, like all good marketing, can bypass logic and abstract ideas like "justice" and "structural inequality" to hit people right in the feels. Provided they "feel" a certain way, that is.
Why are the rightwing always so much better at this than we are? It's frustrating.
Along with flabdablet's analysis, I'd say it's also because they are absolutely ruthless and don't give a fuck about being right or about harming others, as long as they get what they want. Their enemies are well-defined, carefully-constructed caricatures, and fucking us up is as satisfying as actually achieving anything good for themselves, if not more so. It's an attitude which lets you be highly agile and manipulative both rhetoricically and tactically, whilst your opponents struggle to balance winning with things like, idk, intellectual honesty.
It's also important to remember that our political system already favors them by giving their electoral strongholds vastly more representative weight per person than "blue" areas. They started consolidating this existing structural advantage (gerrymandering being only one example) way before your average Democratic voter even caught on to what was happening. The support of almost the entire billionaire class doesn't hurt either. (Witness their bizarre fixation on George Soros, which is 110% projection.)
posted by peakes at 2:54 AM on April 20, 2020 [43 favorites]
Denver nurses block traffic to counter-protest astroturf rally
Slightly surreal moment for me. Okay, see these photos with the guy in the Bulls shirt? See the slightly blurry house right next to the nurse's head?
Mrs. Example and I used to live there.
I really miss that neighborhood sometimes. From that perspective, the central public library and Civic Center Park are maybe a five-minute walk behind you, and they're surrounded by all kinds of little indie coffee houses and shops and things. There are at least two art house movie theaters within a fifteen-minute walk or so. (Or at least things were that way back in 2007 or so when we moved.)
We now return you from this nostalgia derail to your regularly scheduled thread.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:18 AM on April 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
Slightly surreal moment for me. Okay, see these photos with the guy in the Bulls shirt? See the slightly blurry house right next to the nurse's head?
Mrs. Example and I used to live there.
I really miss that neighborhood sometimes. From that perspective, the central public library and Civic Center Park are maybe a five-minute walk behind you, and they're surrounded by all kinds of little indie coffee houses and shops and things. There are at least two art house movie theaters within a fifteen-minute walk or so. (Or at least things were that way back in 2007 or so when we moved.)
We now return you from this nostalgia derail to your regularly scheduled thread.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:18 AM on April 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
(P.S. I'm reliably informed by Mrs. Example that memory and focus have steered me wrong, and that's not actually the back of our house, but the one behind it. They're connected by a common courtyard and share a laundry room, though, so I'm still counting it.)
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 4:34 AM on April 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 4:34 AM on April 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
I want to clarify the language in my post: like tclark I used undifferentiated "us", and also referred to prosperity gospel etc., because the article is specifically about "protests" in the United States and panama joe's comment, to which I was responding, also referred to "this country" which I took to be the US.
I believe the international far right is a thing and that a lot of its tactics are similar if not identical to those of the American right, but the cultural stuff and notably the part about electoral advantage ("our political system") obviously only referred to the US and wasn't meant to exclude or ignore other nations.
posted by peakes at 4:52 AM on April 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
I believe the international far right is a thing and that a lot of its tactics are similar if not identical to those of the American right, but the cultural stuff and notably the part about electoral advantage ("our political system") obviously only referred to the US and wasn't meant to exclude or ignore other nations.
posted by peakes at 4:52 AM on April 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
I just heard part of a debate show on the radio, with a guy who think we should sacrifice a couple of thousand lives to get the economy going. To be fair, it was clear that the hosts were taking this as an opportunity to go though his talking points with more enlightened guests, from all over society. But he was resistant to reason. When he began arguing that since the virus is only dangerous for a section of the population and that is the section that should be in quarantine, I was shouting at the radio that is your section!!! He is a 50+ male, and if he wants to lock up only the vulnerable, he should be locked up. Sweden is trying the exact idea he thinks he is proposing, and it is not working.
When I listen to him, I really wonder wether he believes this shit himself. He is the editor in chief of our main tabloid, and his job is to sell papers and generate clicks through controversy, and he is good at his job. He is the public racist uncle, speaking for all the other racist uncles out there.
BTW, the reason for the debate show was that last night the head immunologist said to a newspaper that we must expect to do social distancing for a year more. The government hasn't said anything yet, but I'll probably know more soon.
posted by mumimor at 5:22 AM on April 20, 2020 [11 favorites]
When I listen to him, I really wonder wether he believes this shit himself. He is the editor in chief of our main tabloid, and his job is to sell papers and generate clicks through controversy, and he is good at his job. He is the public racist uncle, speaking for all the other racist uncles out there.
BTW, the reason for the debate show was that last night the head immunologist said to a newspaper that we must expect to do social distancing for a year more. The government hasn't said anything yet, but I'll probably know more soon.
posted by mumimor at 5:22 AM on April 20, 2020 [11 favorites]
"I just read about the Pandemic in us weekly. Those guys at the task force briefing were total jerks." -- mandyc19
Remember when astroturfing ("Ashleyturfing") was just corporate advertising?
posted by jca at 9:24 AM on April 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Remember when astroturfing ("Ashleyturfing") was just corporate advertising?
posted by jca at 9:24 AM on April 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Instead of exploiting people, perhaps a nobler goal would be to provide people with a useful channel for their anger?
So... some sort of vanguardism?
A significant chunk of "the left" believes that organizing is about helping people get together and do things for themselves, coming up with their own solutions to their own problems, not imposing solutions and asking folks to follow along. Solidarity not charity, etc. In other words, "providing people with a useful channel for their anger" is not a whole lot different from exploiting them, because who gets to decide what is "useful"?
There are many groups doing that organizing work. Perhaps you've heard of community mutual aid networks? Or the increasing popularity of rent strikes or less direct calls on governments to "cancel rent" (and mortgages)? This sort of organizing looks different from what you seem to be looking for, but it is happening all over.
posted by eviemath at 9:27 AM on April 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
So... some sort of vanguardism?
A significant chunk of "the left" believes that organizing is about helping people get together and do things for themselves, coming up with their own solutions to their own problems, not imposing solutions and asking folks to follow along. Solidarity not charity, etc. In other words, "providing people with a useful channel for their anger" is not a whole lot different from exploiting them, because who gets to decide what is "useful"?
There are many groups doing that organizing work. Perhaps you've heard of community mutual aid networks? Or the increasing popularity of rent strikes or less direct calls on governments to "cancel rent" (and mortgages)? This sort of organizing looks different from what you seem to be looking for, but it is happening all over.
posted by eviemath at 9:27 AM on April 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
the right wingers wouldn't be able to get any traction at all if people weren't genuinely in pain.
For some it is economic pain. For a reasonably comfortable section of society it's just racism and sexism, there is no other possible motivation. This was discussed endlessly after the election when papers were searching the heartland for the mythical economic hardship Trump voter.
posted by benzenedream at 9:50 AM on April 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
For some it is economic pain. For a reasonably comfortable section of society it's just racism and sexism, there is no other possible motivation. This was discussed endlessly after the election when papers were searching the heartland for the mythical economic hardship Trump voter.
posted by benzenedream at 9:50 AM on April 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
Power and wealth and privilege are all relative positions, and any loss in those statuses feels like pain. Coincidentally, power erodes our ability to feel empathy, so it's no surprise that the privileged believe that the pain of no longer being as elevated over others as they were is real pain.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:06 AM on April 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:06 AM on April 20, 2020 [10 favorites]
How an “Old Hippie” Got Accused of Astroturfing the Right-Wing Campaign to Reopen the Economy (Ali Breland, Mother Jones, 20 Apr 2020)
Murphy, who said he’s staunchly opposed to and frustrated by the protests because of the risks they pose in accelerating the spread of the coronavirus, and his friend realized that the organizers, which turned out to include a small group of pro-gun advocates helping coordinate the campaign, were using a simple state-based abbreviation pattern to register websites promoting the protests.posted by Not A Thing at 12:00 PM on April 20, 2020 [11 favorites]
They came up with a plan. Murphy snapped up domains for every still available iteration of reopenAL.com, reopenAK.com, reopenAR.com, and so forth, that hadn’t already been purchased, along with every domain he could for variations like liberateWV.com, liberateWY.com, and liberateWI.com. The idea was to preempt any further such purchases by people genuinely seeking to organize protests.
“I realized all these fringe guys are gonna get a hold of these websites, so I went out and bought ‘em up that night,” he told me.
Murphy's story can be easily checked: using the prior info documenting the specific domains he bought, are those domains being used (to organize demonstrations)? If not, then he's likely telling the truth.
If he's legit, then this demonstrates why you don't dox people.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:26 PM on April 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
If he's legit, then this demonstrates why you don't dox people.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:26 PM on April 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
But then of course we have the ABG ("Always Be Grifting") contingent - NBC News.com: Conservative activist family behind 'grassroots' anti-quarantine Facebook events.
A family-run network of pro-gun groups is behind five of the largest Facebook groups dedicated to protesting the shelter-in-place restrictions, according to an NBC News analysis of Facebook groups and website registration information.posted by soundguy99 at 12:52 PM on April 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
The groups were set up by four brothers — Chris, Ben, Aaron and Matthew Dorr — and have amassed more than 200,000 members collectively, including in states where they don’t reside, according to an NBC News analysis based on public records searches and Facebook group registrations.
The Dorr brothers are known in conservative circles for running pro-gun and anti-abortion Facebook groups that bring in hundreds of thousands of dollars annually by antagonizing establishment conservative leaders and activists.
Their usual method is to attack established conservative groups from the right, including the National Rifle Association, and then make money by selling memberships in their groups or selling mailing lists of those who sign up, according to some conservative politicians and activists who have labeled those efforts as scams.
Just to move this accross the pond for a moment
Regarding those 128 fake #NHS Staff accounts posting for 'Herd Mentality' and support of the Govt that were set up by
@DHSCgovuk or their marketing agency ...
Posts were sent using Hootsuite, a mass-posting tool. Account registered to 1 person with 4 assigned contributors.
Twitter as thread reader seems to be shadow banned. NHS is the UK National Health Service
An actual Government department is setting up fake Social media accounts.
posted by adamvasco at 1:49 PM on April 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
Regarding those 128 fake #NHS Staff accounts posting for 'Herd Mentality' and support of the Govt that were set up by
@DHSCgovuk or their marketing agency ...
Posts were sent using Hootsuite, a mass-posting tool. Account registered to 1 person with 4 assigned contributors.
Twitter as thread reader seems to be shadow banned. NHS is the UK National Health Service
An actual Government department is setting up fake Social media accounts.
posted by adamvasco at 1:49 PM on April 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
And it's easy for the right wingers to fight against 'the other' aka pretty much everyone not them. That group is losing power, and attacking, while the left is a big messy vibrant mix of everyone else, with different goals and values and ideals. It's easy for the right to link forces with the people who look like them, sound like them, and go to the same churches.
Also, the right has Red State media, which can rant and rave and incite and throw firebombs, while the mainstream media is devoted pretty solidly to not calling the right wingers bigots or racists or dupes or insane or hateful, no matter what assaults on civil rights or LGBTQIA+ people or workers the right wingers have committed this week.
Asymmetrical warfare. The good god-fearing white folks vs the abortionists and people not following the Bible or any God at all...they are the chosen ones, and we want to force them into decent behavior that they are so very convinced is sinful.
Asymmetrical warfare with religious connotations vs a big, easily fractured tent. Of course we hate them, their media says so. All their friends say so.
And thus, yellow dog/Cheeto Republicans. Hold the line, have faith. Gott mit uns, after all.
And that's why a vote for Republicans is worth any number of libs rights and lives.
Heartland Uber Alles, aeternum Deus. Amen.
posted by Jacen at 4:35 PM on April 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Also, the right has Red State media, which can rant and rave and incite and throw firebombs, while the mainstream media is devoted pretty solidly to not calling the right wingers bigots or racists or dupes or insane or hateful, no matter what assaults on civil rights or LGBTQIA+ people or workers the right wingers have committed this week.
Asymmetrical warfare. The good god-fearing white folks vs the abortionists and people not following the Bible or any God at all...they are the chosen ones, and we want to force them into decent behavior that they are so very convinced is sinful.
Asymmetrical warfare with religious connotations vs a big, easily fractured tent. Of course we hate them, their media says so. All their friends say so.
And thus, yellow dog/Cheeto Republicans. Hold the line, have faith. Gott mit uns, after all.
And that's why a vote for Republicans is worth any number of libs rights and lives.
Heartland Uber Alles, aeternum Deus. Amen.
posted by Jacen at 4:35 PM on April 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Krebs digs further into the origins, finding a few technical details still remain:
And not all of the domains registered are active yet, but they still find some traces of collusion:
posted by pwnguin at 5:04 PM on April 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Both the Minnesota and Pennsylvania gun advocacy sites include the same Google Analytics tracker in their source code: UA-60996284. A cursory Internet search on that code shows it also is present on reopentexasnow.com, reopenwi.com and reopeniowa.com.
And not all of the domains registered are active yet, but they still find some traces of collusion:
Many of the reopen sites that have redacted names and other information about their registrants nevertheless hold other clues, mainly based on precisely when they were registered.
...
For example, more than 50 reopen domains were registered within an hour of each other on April 17 — between 3:25 p.m. ET and 4:43 ET. Most of these lack registration details, but a handful of them did
posted by pwnguin at 5:04 PM on April 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
"...they are trying to commit a felony when they report in the presence of the king 'There is no plauge in the lands!' Let not the king my Lord listen to the words of these men! There is no plauge in the country! Things are as healthy as ever!"
- letter from the governor of Byblos to Pharoah Ankhenaten, 1366 B.C.E.
posted by clavdivs at 8:10 PM on April 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
- letter from the governor of Byblos to Pharoah Ankhenaten, 1366 B.C.E.
posted by clavdivs at 8:10 PM on April 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
"Smart wealthy people, going all the way back to Henry Ford"
interesting, the Dodge brother's died of the "1918" flu and Ford bought them out for like 25 million in 1919, a year before their deaths.
posted by clavdivs at 10:01 PM on April 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
interesting, the Dodge brother's died of the "1918" flu and Ford bought them out for like 25 million in 1919, a year before their deaths.
posted by clavdivs at 10:01 PM on April 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
...a guy who think we should sacrifice a couple of thousand lives to get the economy going
We'll sacrifice thousands of lives if we don't get the economy going. It's just easier to quantify Corona dead vs the postponed or untreated heart problems, transplants, etc. Thing is, this is not a yes/no or good/evil question, it's sadly a risk/reward question, with too many unknowable variables. Which is why Sweden, hardly a country of unscientific rubes, could choose its method for dealing with the disease, and why the UK could toy with the Swedish model before following the global herd.
Who's right, when is the optimal time to lockdown or lift lockdown, balancing an unknown number of Covid deaths, non-Covid deaths, economic slowdown, or economic catastrophe? Hell if I know, but then, hell if anyone else does either. Again, the problem is data, and inability to know how un-taken options would have played out. We see the ever rising price tag, we cannot know how many lives were spared. Whether it is worth it- you decide. But accept that any answer is going to be a guess, subject to change as numbers change.
For a reasonably comfortable section of society it's just racism and sexism, there is no other possible motivation.
Sure there is. Fear of a second Great Depression.** Reasonably Comfortable small business owners and their employees cannot weather the Great Lockdown for as long as large multi-nationals. I'm no mind reader, but I doubt racism or sexism is a big factor or indeed a factor at all in their thinking. Certainly not in the people I know who have been laid off and the small business owners who are contemplating closing up shop. YMMV. As to DeVos or Koch, what they get out of frankly small protests escapes me.
**(If those words don't scare you, go back to Ken Burns' doco on the subject.)
posted by BWA at 7:32 AM on April 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
We'll sacrifice thousands of lives if we don't get the economy going. It's just easier to quantify Corona dead vs the postponed or untreated heart problems, transplants, etc. Thing is, this is not a yes/no or good/evil question, it's sadly a risk/reward question, with too many unknowable variables. Which is why Sweden, hardly a country of unscientific rubes, could choose its method for dealing with the disease, and why the UK could toy with the Swedish model before following the global herd.
Who's right, when is the optimal time to lockdown or lift lockdown, balancing an unknown number of Covid deaths, non-Covid deaths, economic slowdown, or economic catastrophe? Hell if I know, but then, hell if anyone else does either. Again, the problem is data, and inability to know how un-taken options would have played out. We see the ever rising price tag, we cannot know how many lives were spared. Whether it is worth it- you decide. But accept that any answer is going to be a guess, subject to change as numbers change.
For a reasonably comfortable section of society it's just racism and sexism, there is no other possible motivation.
Sure there is. Fear of a second Great Depression.** Reasonably Comfortable small business owners and their employees cannot weather the Great Lockdown for as long as large multi-nationals. I'm no mind reader, but I doubt racism or sexism is a big factor or indeed a factor at all in their thinking. Certainly not in the people I know who have been laid off and the small business owners who are contemplating closing up shop. YMMV. As to DeVos or Koch, what they get out of frankly small protests escapes me.
**(If those words don't scare you, go back to Ken Burns' doco on the subject.)
posted by BWA at 7:32 AM on April 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
There's certainly a point at which economic collapse causes mass death. But in the US even the Great Depression was substantially a wash on that score (suicides rose but car accident deaths fell even more, etc). More broadly, the literature on the correlation between economic contraction and decreased death rates is now in its 98th year.
Obviously this is a different situation from the Great Depression, and there is a limit on what we can learn from historical examples. But it's easy to forget how many deaths we've been conditioned to accept as the literal cost of doing business.
posted by Not A Thing at 8:24 AM on April 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
Obviously this is a different situation from the Great Depression, and there is a limit on what we can learn from historical examples. But it's easy to forget how many deaths we've been conditioned to accept as the literal cost of doing business.
posted by Not A Thing at 8:24 AM on April 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
As to DeVos or Koch, what they get out of frankly small protests escapes me.
Well, congratulations on the dumbest fucking thing I've read so far today, and I've been browsing Twitter for the last 3 hours.
Point fucking 1 is that the DeVos & Koch families are not specifically necessarily personally directing the organizations they fund to start up these protests, the orgs run themselves with a mandate to do whatever they can to produce and fund propaganda events and media that pushes the idea that ANY government intervention in the lives of citizens and their business is too much, that an unfettered capitalist "free market" will provide the best possible life for all citizens.
Point fucking 2 is that the reason they want this "unfettered free market" is that it increases their income since they don't have to spend money on things like employee protections and taxes and environmental regulations compliance and on and on and on.
Point fucking 3 is producing these simplistic propaganda events and media with lots of racist and sexist dog whistles (or with the racism and sexism right fucking out in the open) is that it pushes some people's emotional buttons - as long as one element of the message agrees with their worldview, they won't examine any other elements of the message.
Point fucking 4 is that this means that economic and social policies that are genuinely objectively bad for large sections of the population get supported by segments of that population that only "hear" or pay attention to the parts of a message that they agree with.
Point fucking 5 is that this then means that conservative politicians get elected and work to create policy and laws (or destroy same) that benefit the business and financial interests of DeVos and Koch - and they got elected because of constant DeVos & Koch funded messaging and propaganda that pushed enough voters' emotional buttons in such a way that those voters voted against their own interest.
Point fucking 6 is that these "Open America" protests are more of the same - it's not that DeVos or Koch necessarily get actual dollars in their actual pockets because of these protests, but it riles up those who have swallowed the "unfettered free market" propaganda - or ignored it because these protests push their emotional "white people free-floating resentment" buttons.
Point fucking 7 is that thanks to both the mainstream media AND ESPECIALLY right-wing media - Fox News, for those playing along at home - giving attention to these protests, politicians are feeling social and public pressure to ignore (or use it as justification to ignore because they themselves have drunk the "unfettered free market" Kool-Aid) best medical practices and to instead go ahead and "open" the economy. DeVos and Koch are losing money because the economy is closed - Koch Industries Wikipedia: "Its subsidiaries are involved in the manufacturing, refining, and distribution of petroleum, chemicals, energy, fiber, intermediates and polymers, minerals, fertilizers, pulp and paper, chemical technology equipment, ranching, finance, commodities trading, and investing."
Point fuckng 8 is that DeVos and Koch might well actually get some actual dollars in their pockets directly because the entire right-wing media ecosystem is a fucking grift - they sell email/snail mail address lists to each other so they have more suckers to ask for donations or membership fees or subscription fees, buy ads on each other's Facebook & website pages, those ads are often in turn begging for money directly or indirectly.
Why Are Republican Small Donors So Easy to Swindle?
posted by soundguy99 at 9:23 AM on April 21, 2020 [18 favorites]
Well, congratulations on the dumbest fucking thing I've read so far today, and I've been browsing Twitter for the last 3 hours.
Point fucking 1 is that the DeVos & Koch families are not specifically necessarily personally directing the organizations they fund to start up these protests, the orgs run themselves with a mandate to do whatever they can to produce and fund propaganda events and media that pushes the idea that ANY government intervention in the lives of citizens and their business is too much, that an unfettered capitalist "free market" will provide the best possible life for all citizens.
Point fucking 2 is that the reason they want this "unfettered free market" is that it increases their income since they don't have to spend money on things like employee protections and taxes and environmental regulations compliance and on and on and on.
Point fucking 3 is producing these simplistic propaganda events and media with lots of racist and sexist dog whistles (or with the racism and sexism right fucking out in the open) is that it pushes some people's emotional buttons - as long as one element of the message agrees with their worldview, they won't examine any other elements of the message.
Point fucking 4 is that this means that economic and social policies that are genuinely objectively bad for large sections of the population get supported by segments of that population that only "hear" or pay attention to the parts of a message that they agree with.
Point fucking 5 is that this then means that conservative politicians get elected and work to create policy and laws (or destroy same) that benefit the business and financial interests of DeVos and Koch - and they got elected because of constant DeVos & Koch funded messaging and propaganda that pushed enough voters' emotional buttons in such a way that those voters voted against their own interest.
Point fucking 6 is that these "Open America" protests are more of the same - it's not that DeVos or Koch necessarily get actual dollars in their actual pockets because of these protests, but it riles up those who have swallowed the "unfettered free market" propaganda - or ignored it because these protests push their emotional "white people free-floating resentment" buttons.
Point fucking 7 is that thanks to both the mainstream media AND ESPECIALLY right-wing media - Fox News, for those playing along at home - giving attention to these protests, politicians are feeling social and public pressure to ignore (or use it as justification to ignore because they themselves have drunk the "unfettered free market" Kool-Aid) best medical practices and to instead go ahead and "open" the economy. DeVos and Koch are losing money because the economy is closed - Koch Industries Wikipedia: "Its subsidiaries are involved in the manufacturing, refining, and distribution of petroleum, chemicals, energy, fiber, intermediates and polymers, minerals, fertilizers, pulp and paper, chemical technology equipment, ranching, finance, commodities trading, and investing."
Point fuckng 8 is that DeVos and Koch might well actually get some actual dollars in their pockets directly because the entire right-wing media ecosystem is a fucking grift - they sell email/snail mail address lists to each other so they have more suckers to ask for donations or membership fees or subscription fees, buy ads on each other's Facebook & website pages, those ads are often in turn begging for money directly or indirectly.
Why Are Republican Small Donors So Easy to Swindle?
posted by soundguy99 at 9:23 AM on April 21, 2020 [18 favorites]
I find the labeling of 'astroturfing' to be problematic. Astroturf means a deep pockets corporate funder secretly funds a group of supposed grassroots organizers to forward their narrow corporate agenda. That's not what's happening.
I have been attending, supporting, and occasionally organizing protests since the mid 90s. Just like these wingnuts we have just a small number people who do much of the organizing, creating written documents, starting petitions, setting up websites, and creating graphics and posters. Just like these wingnuts there are nonprofits and established social movement organizations who are spreading information from one local group to the next, providing some limited funding (such as renting the sound system, paying for a domaine name, renting the port-a-poties). Of course we are amplified, sometimes in the form of having our numbers or impact exaggerated, by supportive reporters and sympathetic media outlets. This is how activism works, and it's not a conspiracy. And just like these wingnuts there are just a few people who are doing agenda-setting and strategic planning, and the majority of participants are just showing up. That is in fact a goal of an organizer: to influence the thinking and strategy of the majority.
These are real people with a real, absolutely horrible, racist, death-cult agenda - and we should fight that because of the content of what they're doing, not because they are supposedly somehow fake.
posted by latkes at 11:47 AM on April 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
I have been attending, supporting, and occasionally organizing protests since the mid 90s. Just like these wingnuts we have just a small number people who do much of the organizing, creating written documents, starting petitions, setting up websites, and creating graphics and posters. Just like these wingnuts there are nonprofits and established social movement organizations who are spreading information from one local group to the next, providing some limited funding (such as renting the sound system, paying for a domaine name, renting the port-a-poties). Of course we are amplified, sometimes in the form of having our numbers or impact exaggerated, by supportive reporters and sympathetic media outlets. This is how activism works, and it's not a conspiracy. And just like these wingnuts there are just a few people who are doing agenda-setting and strategic planning, and the majority of participants are just showing up. That is in fact a goal of an organizer: to influence the thinking and strategy of the majority.
These are real people with a real, absolutely horrible, racist, death-cult agenda - and we should fight that because of the content of what they're doing, not because they are supposedly somehow fake.
posted by latkes at 11:47 AM on April 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
Did you ever attend an anti Iraq war protest? Do you think International ANSWER was an astroturfing organization? I don't. Even if 3/4 of the signage at these rallies over many years and cities was made by ANSWER. This is just how coordination of protests across cities works.
posted by latkes at 11:50 AM on April 21, 2020
posted by latkes at 11:50 AM on April 21, 2020
Astroturf means a deep pockets corporate funder secretly funds a group of supposed grassroots organizers to forward their narrow corporate agenda. That's not what's happening.
That, in fact, is what's happening:
Thousands of Americans backed by rightwing donors gear up for protests
I mean, if we're gonna nitpick the definition of "astroturf", did any of the left-wing protests you were involved in ever hide the extent to which they were backed or supported by larger organizations or non-profits? Probably not, huh?
And that's the point, and why they are "astroturf" protests - right-wing protests have a long history (Brooks Brothers Riot) of not disclosing that they are funded or organized by larger organizations. They may be lying by omission, but make no mistake, they are pretending - no, wait, they are marketing the story - that these protests are spontaneously arising due to regular old folks just out of the blue deciding that they want to gather a few of their neighbors and some signs and some guns and go tramp down to the statehouse and march around for a few hours.
MoveOn.org or the Women's March does not hide the fact that they are asking people to go protest something - ReOpenPA Facebook group or who-the-fuck-ever absolutely does.
Pointing out their fakeness is completely valid in supporting the larger point that they do not represent the majority of Americans, despite their claims, and that they are tools of a certain group of people pushing an agenda.
posted by soundguy99 at 12:31 PM on April 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
That, in fact, is what's happening:
Thousands of Americans backed by rightwing donors gear up for protests
The two groups behind the “operation gridlock” rally in Michigan on Wednesday have ties to the Republican party and the Trump administration.These are real people with a real, absolutely horrible, racist, death-cult agenda - and we should fight that because of the content of what they're doing, not because they are supposedly somehow fake.
The Michigan Freedom Fund, which said it was a co-host of the rally, has received more than $500,000 from the DeVos family, regular donors to rightwing groups.
The other host, the Michigan Conservative Coalition, was founded by Matt Maddock, now a Republican member of the state house of representatives. The MCC also operates under the name Michigan Trump Republicans, and in January held an event featuring several members of the Trump campaign.
I mean, if we're gonna nitpick the definition of "astroturf", did any of the left-wing protests you were involved in ever hide the extent to which they were backed or supported by larger organizations or non-profits? Probably not, huh?
And that's the point, and why they are "astroturf" protests - right-wing protests have a long history (Brooks Brothers Riot) of not disclosing that they are funded or organized by larger organizations. They may be lying by omission, but make no mistake, they are pretending - no, wait, they are marketing the story - that these protests are spontaneously arising due to regular old folks just out of the blue deciding that they want to gather a few of their neighbors and some signs and some guns and go tramp down to the statehouse and march around for a few hours.
MoveOn.org or the Women's March does not hide the fact that they are asking people to go protest something - ReOpenPA Facebook group or who-the-fuck-ever absolutely does.
Pointing out their fakeness is completely valid in supporting the larger point that they do not represent the majority of Americans, despite their claims, and that they are tools of a certain group of people pushing an agenda.
posted by soundguy99 at 12:31 PM on April 21, 2020 [14 favorites]
I mean, I don't care that much if you want to call it astroturfed, but I think the danger of that emphasis is that we risk not taking seriously the extent of people's real belief in this garbage. While they are a smaller group than what Fox News suggests, they are a real group that are already impacting policy.
posted by latkes at 12:49 PM on April 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 12:49 PM on April 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Did you ever attend an anti Iraq war protest?
Do you think International ANSWER was an astroturfing organization?
Yes.
No.
But golly gosh. The Koch brothers, the NRA, and the GOP big donor list the fund the so-called "Gun Rights" groups at the heart of these "protests" are not International ANSWER - which is a coalition of grassroots organizations supported by individual donors.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:52 PM on April 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Do you think International ANSWER was an astroturfing organization?
Yes.
No.
But golly gosh. The Koch brothers, the NRA, and the GOP big donor list the fund the so-called "Gun Rights" groups at the heart of these "protests" are not International ANSWER - which is a coalition of grassroots organizations supported by individual donors.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:52 PM on April 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
While they are a smaller group than what Fox News suggests, they are a real group that are already impacting policy.
No. You have the cart before the horse.
They are real people in a fake group set up as a prop to support and justify policies already advanced by the dominant political interests of the Right and the GOP.
I guess these protests are real in the same sense that the Reichstag Fire was real and the Gulf of Tonkin were real.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:56 PM on April 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
No. You have the cart before the horse.
They are real people in a fake group set up as a prop to support and justify policies already advanced by the dominant political interests of the Right and the GOP.
I guess these protests are real in the same sense that the Reichstag Fire was real and the Gulf of Tonkin were real.
posted by Everyone Expects The Spanish Influenza at 12:56 PM on April 21, 2020 [11 favorites]
I agree about this material difference between left and right protests: there are more on the left than the right, by far, and the right has the support of those in power. While I haven't seen evidence of deep pocket funding for these 'open the country' demonstrations in specific, they support and are supported by, amplify and are amplified by, the racist, women hating worshippers of capital, militarism and carceralism who sit at the top.
But almost 63,000,000 people voted for Donald Trump. If we're to win, I think we need a strategy that faces that reality. Real people have terrible positions. What are we going to do about that?
posted by latkes at 3:16 PM on April 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
But almost 63,000,000 people voted for Donald Trump. If we're to win, I think we need a strategy that faces that reality. Real people have terrible positions. What are we going to do about that?
posted by latkes at 3:16 PM on April 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
While I haven't seen evidence of deep pocket funding for these 'open the country' demonstrations in specific
What kind of evidence do you need? I mean, here you have a millionaire Republican admitting to paying for charter busses to deliver protestors from eight cities to Raleigh for today's Reopen NC street party which has pro bono representation from a law firm that employs Reince Priebus and represents the Trump Organization, The Quiet Hand of Conservative Groups in the Anti-Lockdown Protests (NYTimes):
What kind of evidence do you need? I mean, here you have a millionaire Republican admitting to paying for charter busses to deliver protestors from eight cities to Raleigh for today's Reopen NC street party which has pro bono representation from a law firm that employs Reince Priebus and represents the Trump Organization, The Quiet Hand of Conservative Groups in the Anti-Lockdown Protests (NYTimes):
Among those fighting the orders are populist groups that played pivotal roles in the beginning of Tea Party protests starting more than a decade ago, such as FreedomWorks and Tea Party Patriots. Also involved are a law firm led partly by former Trump White House officials, a network of state-based conservative policy groups, and an ad hoc coalition of conservative leaders known as Save Our Country that has advised the White House on strategies for a tiered reopening of the economy.posted by peeedro at 3:59 PM on April 21, 2020 [7 favorites]
My argument is FreedomWorks and Tea Party Patriots and whatnot are akin to left non-profits that likewise fund/boost/coordinate left protests but whatever that's fine if it's important to people to focus on the idea of this being astroturfed that's fine. Different strokes.
To me the most important question is: What should we do about the millions of people who support this fucked up garbage?
posted by latkes at 4:53 PM on April 21, 2020
To me the most important question is: What should we do about the millions of people who support this fucked up garbage?
posted by latkes at 4:53 PM on April 21, 2020
Stop allowing groups to covertly fund and coordinate protests that will inevitably get people killed, while providing a short-term boost to very particular political stances? I mean, it's not like you can separate the success of the Right from their willingness to manipulate the media as much as they can to achieve their goals.
Although I think you are maybe coming at this on a different level than other commenters, given your different examples of which groups you think are in question here.
posted by sagc at 5:00 PM on April 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
Although I think you are maybe coming at this on a different level than other commenters, given your different examples of which groups you think are in question here.
posted by sagc at 5:00 PM on April 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
While I haven't seen evidence of deep pocket funding for these 'open the country' demonstrations in specific
Both of my previous comments in this thread have links to evidence.
To me the most important question is: What should we do about the millions of people who support this fucked up garbage?
Among other things, try to get them to see that they are being manipulated by people who do not care one whit about their personal health or economic security. IOW, that these are astroturf protests.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:03 PM on April 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
Both of my previous comments in this thread have links to evidence.
To me the most important question is: What should we do about the millions of people who support this fucked up garbage?
Among other things, try to get them to see that they are being manipulated by people who do not care one whit about their personal health or economic security. IOW, that these are astroturf protests.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:03 PM on April 21, 2020 [3 favorites]
My argument is FreedomWorks and Tea Party Patriots and whatnot are akin to left non-profits that likewise fund/boost/coordinate left protests but whatever that's fine if it's important to people to focus on the idea of this being astroturfed that's fine. Different strokes.
To me the most important question is: What should we do about the millions of people who support this fucked up garbage?
I think you are willfully misunderstanding the point of astroturfing. Astroturfing is designed to subvert pre-existing public opinion (which is usually against whatever is being proposed by the astroturfers). It is not designed to express public opinion, it is designed to market an opinion to the public, pretend support for that opinion is much more widespread than it is, and give friendly politicians an excuse for doing whatever their donors want. "I just had to reopen Hobby Lobby, look at all the protests!" Real organic protests are usually lagging growing public opinion, astroturfing is designed to lead it.
If you stop the astroturfing, it helps prevent millions of people from starting to believe fucked up garbage because they see an artificial herd of peers on TV.
posted by benzenedream at 5:30 PM on April 21, 2020 [16 favorites]
To me the most important question is: What should we do about the millions of people who support this fucked up garbage?
I think you are willfully misunderstanding the point of astroturfing. Astroturfing is designed to subvert pre-existing public opinion (which is usually against whatever is being proposed by the astroturfers). It is not designed to express public opinion, it is designed to market an opinion to the public, pretend support for that opinion is much more widespread than it is, and give friendly politicians an excuse for doing whatever their donors want. "I just had to reopen Hobby Lobby, look at all the protests!" Real organic protests are usually lagging growing public opinion, astroturfing is designed to lead it.
If you stop the astroturfing, it helps prevent millions of people from starting to believe fucked up garbage because they see an artificial herd of peers on TV.
posted by benzenedream at 5:30 PM on April 21, 2020 [16 favorites]
Stop allowing groups to covertly fund and coordinate protests that will inevitably get people killed
How would you do this without restricting left protests? What would be some meaningful laws to stop astroturfing, and how would you define it in a way that would allow any institutional support of progressive protest?
I think you are willfully misunderstanding the point of astroturfing.
Jesus, can anyone disagree on this website without being accused of bad faith? Maybe we just disagree! Sheesh. I think of astroturfing as when a big company (like Exxon) puts out propaganda (like an ad) "raising questions" about a campaign (like stopping global warming) that has potential to financially harm their bottom line, and pretends that this propaganda is created by 'regular people' instead of a big corporation. You have a broader definition that I am troubled by because I think it could easily be applied to activists on the left who have supporters in Washington or in well funded non-profits, and also I feel concerned that it misses the real threat we face from these suicidal right wing groups. But it's totally OK for us to have different ideas about this! We can both fight this shit without having the exact same ideas about it.
I will say, if you think left protests are only about "expressing public opinion" and never about changing public opinion, well then we have been to different protests. Some are about expressing, but any activist concerned with substantial social change has had to focus a fuck ton of effort on changing how people think too. Integration and gay rights for example were very unpopular ideas lacking support from those not directly impacted - and activists fought like hell to convince the general public of their positions, often by using public protest.
While I would definitely fight for laws that limit corporate spending on any kind of advertising especially covert campaigns, I just don't think that's enough to stop bad ideas. We have to face the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of people supporting a trash fire of an agenda and we have to make the case to them one way or another that our side is better, on it's merits.
posted by latkes at 8:02 PM on April 21, 2020
How would you do this without restricting left protests? What would be some meaningful laws to stop astroturfing, and how would you define it in a way that would allow any institutional support of progressive protest?
I think you are willfully misunderstanding the point of astroturfing.
Jesus, can anyone disagree on this website without being accused of bad faith? Maybe we just disagree! Sheesh. I think of astroturfing as when a big company (like Exxon) puts out propaganda (like an ad) "raising questions" about a campaign (like stopping global warming) that has potential to financially harm their bottom line, and pretends that this propaganda is created by 'regular people' instead of a big corporation. You have a broader definition that I am troubled by because I think it could easily be applied to activists on the left who have supporters in Washington or in well funded non-profits, and also I feel concerned that it misses the real threat we face from these suicidal right wing groups. But it's totally OK for us to have different ideas about this! We can both fight this shit without having the exact same ideas about it.
I will say, if you think left protests are only about "expressing public opinion" and never about changing public opinion, well then we have been to different protests. Some are about expressing, but any activist concerned with substantial social change has had to focus a fuck ton of effort on changing how people think too. Integration and gay rights for example were very unpopular ideas lacking support from those not directly impacted - and activists fought like hell to convince the general public of their positions, often by using public protest.
While I would definitely fight for laws that limit corporate spending on any kind of advertising especially covert campaigns, I just don't think that's enough to stop bad ideas. We have to face the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of people supporting a trash fire of an agenda and we have to make the case to them one way or another that our side is better, on it's merits.
posted by latkes at 8:02 PM on April 21, 2020
There is no anti-lockdown protest movement — There are protests, but this isn’t a movement, and it’s not the Tea Party 2.0.
But if this isn’t some spontaneous popular uprising, what the hell is it? Is it even a real protest? And who’s behind it?posted by tonycpsu at 7:09 AM on April 22, 2020 [5 favorites]
To get some answers, I reached out to Theda Skocpol, a professor of government and sociology at Harvard and the co-author (with Vanessa Williamson) of the 2012 book The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism. We discussed how these anti-social-distancing rallies mirror the early Tea Party protests, why they’re fundamentally different, and why she thinks right-wing ideologues see this moment as “potentially dangerous for their vision of the American economy and people’s place in it.”
Protesters pushing to reopen economy are ‘idiots,’ says top manufacturing lobbyist (Jim Tankersley; New York Times; 4/21/2020) alt: Seattle Times
One of Jay Timmons’ Facebook friends invited him last week to attend a “Reopen Virginia” rally in Richmond, a protest against the stay-at-home order issued amid the coronavirus by the state’s Democratic governor. Timmons unfriended the sender, then published a searing retort, criticizing the protesters and accusing them of putting manufacturing workers’ lives at risk by defying rules meant to limit the spread of the virus.posted by ZeusHumms at 7:31 AM on April 22, 2020 [3 favorites]
Timmons’ post began with a single word in all capital letters: “IDIOTS.”
A chief of staff to a Republican former governor of Virginia, Timmons now heads the National Association of Manufacturers, one of America’s largest business lobbying groups. His frustrations, which he detailed this week online and in a 30-minute interview, show the stark divide between the small-but-loud groups of protesters who are marching on state capitols to demand an immediate lifting of restrictions on economic activity and business leaders who have called for more gradual and careful steps toward reopening.
we have to make the case to them one way or another that our side is better, on it's merits.
Bluntly, mostly I don't think this is possible - I think you are seriously overestimating the extent to which these people believe what they believe because of the supposed "merits", and as the saying goes, you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
They believe what they believe largely because it satisfies emotional or psychological needs - and those can be a whole rat's nest of intersecting and overlapping factors; white privilege (conscious or unconscious), economic privilege, racism and sexism both overt and systemic, a deep desire for an authority to tell them how to think and behave, an inability to healthily deal with changing norms both personal and societal, on and on and on and on. Plus at least a half-decade worth of a relatively organized conservative messaging system constantly reinforcing those beliefs.
I mean, just as a start, poll after poll after poll and study after study after study has shown that when you ask Americans about things we need to improve life for people, all sorts of "liberal" ideas have strong if not majority support - better and cheaper education, better and cheaper health care, better access to birth control, better job security for workers, pay that keeps up with the real cost of living, etc etc etc. Yet again and again these same people will vote for conservatives (plus, of course, Trump) who either openly work against those ideas or who have a proven track record of doing so, regardless of whatever promises they made on the campaign trail.
Voting is irrational. Emotions always win; a 2015 article from The Guardian with an overview of some of the recent research into how voting is not really a rational decision.
Which is why I feel that your relatively narrow definition of "astroturfing" could actually be counter-productive - we are not going to convince people on "the merits", so having a strict definition of "astroturfing" is fairly pointless in convincing people to question the right-wing agenda; being able to go, "This is astroturfing, but this looks like astroturfing but isn't" . . . What does that do? How does that convince anybody of anything?
But being able to push people's psychological buttons, being able to drop evidence that they are being manipulated - that might have some effect, especially among a populace that already tends to that world view. And if "astroturfing" is the word we use to describe that, fine.
(I do see your point about concerns about how to battle whichever definition of "astroturfing" via laws and regulation without doing damage to liberal/leftist causes, but until and unless the MAGA-enablers are either a governmental minority or at least cowed into submission, I don't know that that's a very practical concern.)
posted by soundguy99 at 7:46 AM on April 22, 2020 [9 favorites]
Bluntly, mostly I don't think this is possible - I think you are seriously overestimating the extent to which these people believe what they believe because of the supposed "merits", and as the saying goes, you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
They believe what they believe largely because it satisfies emotional or psychological needs - and those can be a whole rat's nest of intersecting and overlapping factors; white privilege (conscious or unconscious), economic privilege, racism and sexism both overt and systemic, a deep desire for an authority to tell them how to think and behave, an inability to healthily deal with changing norms both personal and societal, on and on and on and on. Plus at least a half-decade worth of a relatively organized conservative messaging system constantly reinforcing those beliefs.
I mean, just as a start, poll after poll after poll and study after study after study has shown that when you ask Americans about things we need to improve life for people, all sorts of "liberal" ideas have strong if not majority support - better and cheaper education, better and cheaper health care, better access to birth control, better job security for workers, pay that keeps up with the real cost of living, etc etc etc. Yet again and again these same people will vote for conservatives (plus, of course, Trump) who either openly work against those ideas or who have a proven track record of doing so, regardless of whatever promises they made on the campaign trail.
Voting is irrational. Emotions always win; a 2015 article from The Guardian with an overview of some of the recent research into how voting is not really a rational decision.
Which is why I feel that your relatively narrow definition of "astroturfing" could actually be counter-productive - we are not going to convince people on "the merits", so having a strict definition of "astroturfing" is fairly pointless in convincing people to question the right-wing agenda; being able to go, "This is astroturfing, but this looks like astroturfing but isn't" . . . What does that do? How does that convince anybody of anything?
But being able to push people's psychological buttons, being able to drop evidence that they are being manipulated - that might have some effect, especially among a populace that already tends to that world view. And if "astroturfing" is the word we use to describe that, fine.
(I do see your point about concerns about how to battle whichever definition of "astroturfing" via laws and regulation without doing damage to liberal/leftist causes, but until and unless the MAGA-enablers are either a governmental minority or at least cowed into submission, I don't know that that's a very practical concern.)
posted by soundguy99 at 7:46 AM on April 22, 2020 [9 favorites]
Uh . . . typo in the above comment - "Plus at least a half-decade worth of a relatively organized conservative messaging system constantly reinforcing those beliefs." should read:
"Plus at least a half-CENTURY worth of a relatively organized conservative messaging system constantly reinforcing those beliefs."
posted by soundguy99 at 8:08 AM on April 22, 2020 [6 favorites]
"Plus at least a half-CENTURY worth of a relatively organized conservative messaging system constantly reinforcing those beliefs."
posted by soundguy99 at 8:08 AM on April 22, 2020 [6 favorites]
WaPo with some additional reporting: The anti-quarantine protests seem spontaneous. But behind the scenes, a powerful network is helping.
The Convention of States project launched in 2015 with a high-dollar donation from the family foundation of Robert Mercer, a billionaire hedge fund manager and Republican patron. It boasts past support from two members of the Trump administration — Ken Cuccinelli, acting director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, and Ben Carson, secretary of housing and urban development.How Another Group of Coronavirus Astroturfers Hopes to Destroy America
It also trumpets a prior endorsement from Ron DeSantis, the Republican governor of Florida and a close Trump ally who is pursuing an aggressive plan to reopen his state’s economy. A spokesman for Carson declined to comment. Cuccinelli and DeSantis did not respond to requests for comment. [...]
“We’re providing a digital platform for people to plan and communicate about what they’re doing,” said Eric O’Keefe, board president of Citizens for Self-Governance, the parent organization of the Convention of States project.
A longtime associate of the conservative activist Koch family, O’Keefe helped manage David Koch’s 1980 bid for the White House when he served as the No. 2 on the Libertarian ticket.
“To shut down our rural counties because of what’s going on in New York City, or in some sense Milwaukee, is draconian,” said O’Keefe, who lives in Wisconsin.
What does CoS want? Oh, just this:posted by tonycpsu at 7:29 AM on April 23, 2020 [8 favorites]... here are a few examples of amendments that can be proposed under our resolution.[...]
* A balanced budget amendment.
* A redefinition of the General Welfare Clause (the original view was the federal government could not spend money on any topic within the jurisdiction of the states).
* A redefinition of the Commerce Clause (the original view was that Congress was granted a narrow and exclusive power to regulate shipments across state lines–not all the economic activity of the nation).
* A prohibition of using international treaties and law to govern the domestic law of the United States.
* A limitation on using Executive Orders and federal regulations to enact laws (since Congress is supposed to be the exclusive agency to enact laws).
* Imposing term limits on Congress and the Supreme Court.
* Placing an upper limit on federal taxation.
* Requiring the sunset of all existing federal taxes and a super-majority vote to replace them with new, fairer taxes.
This is the wish list. This is the long-term goal of some of the people who want to reopen America long before it's ready.
If you're wondering why Nazi iconography is so prominent in the reopen protests, Email addresses and passwords allegedly from NIH, WHO and Gates Foundation, are dumped online:
posted by peeedro at 7:42 AM on April 23, 2020 [6 favorites]
The lists, whose origins are unclear, first appear to have been posted to 4chan, a message board notorious for its hateful and extreme political commentary, and later to Pastebin, a text storage site, Twitter and to far-right extremist channels on Telegram, a messaging app.I think this is an attempt to recreate the manufactured controversy over the hacked Climatic Research Unit emails.
“Neo-Nazis and white supremacists capitalized on the lists and published them aggressively across their venues,” said Rita Katz, SITE’s executive director. “Using the data, far-right extremists were calling for a harassment campaign while sharing conspiracy theories about the coronavirus pandemic. The distribution of these alleged email credentials were just another part of a months-long initiative across the far right to weaponize the covid-19 pandemic.”
posted by peeedro at 7:42 AM on April 23, 2020 [6 favorites]
Michigan senator apologizes for wearing Confederate flag face mask (Tom Lutz, Guardian, 4/25/2020) • "Dale Zorn initially defended his actions, saying it was part of ‘our history’, but eventually apologized after widespread outrage"
Brian Newland tweeted:
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:51 PM on April 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
Brian Newland tweeted:
This is Dale Zorn. He is an elected member of the Michigan Senate. He wore a Confederate Flag mask on the floor of the Michigan Senate. Then he tried to tell us he didn't.Apr 25, 2020 from Michigan, USA
THIS IS MICHIGAN, NOT MISSISSIPPI!
Get that trash outta here.
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:51 PM on April 25, 2020 [7 favorites]
Senator Dale Zorn: My wife made it, it's the flag of Kentucky, er, Tennessee.
But it's not. And you're in Michigan.
Senator Dale Zorn: Whatever! It's history! Children should be aware! I was being historically sarcastic!
posted by valkane at 7:07 PM on April 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
But it's not. And you're in Michigan.
Senator Dale Zorn: Whatever! It's history! Children should be aware! I was being historically sarcastic!
posted by valkane at 7:07 PM on April 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
Just a reminder, most of us in Mississippi also fought for the Union side, so. Goddam.
posted by eustatic at 12:01 AM on April 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 12:01 AM on April 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
Just a reminder, most of us in Mississippi also fought for the Union side, so. Goddam.
While many did serve with the Union, 'most' implies a numerical advantage. It seems hard to reconcile your claim with the facts:
- Jefferson Davis served as a Senator for Mississippi before becoming President of the Confederacy
- the enlistment figures which predominantly favor the Confederacy
- by 1894 any memory of Union service was missing when the Legislature officially adopted the stars and bars on their Flag, 30 years after the war ended.
Over 100 years later, the state Legislature still cannot find a majority with which to remove the stars and bars. This is why people associate Mississippi and the Confederacy.
posted by pwnguin at 6:58 PM on May 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
While many did serve with the Union, 'most' implies a numerical advantage. It seems hard to reconcile your claim with the facts:
- Jefferson Davis served as a Senator for Mississippi before becoming President of the Confederacy
- the enlistment figures which predominantly favor the Confederacy
- by 1894 any memory of Union service was missing when the Legislature officially adopted the stars and bars on their Flag, 30 years after the war ended.
Over 100 years later, the state Legislature still cannot find a majority with which to remove the stars and bars. This is why people associate Mississippi and the Confederacy.
posted by pwnguin at 6:58 PM on May 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
To be fair, there was a literal campaign of terrorism involved in putting the slavers back in power after the Civil War. We have long glossed over the fact that, in the South, the terrorists actually won. Like overthrew duly elected governments won, not "just" intimidating people into not voting. That came later.
posted by wierdo at 8:27 PM on May 7, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 8:27 PM on May 7, 2020 [14 favorites]
Revealed: major anti-lockdown group's links to America's far right:
Leaked audio recordings and online materials obtained by the Guardian reveal that one of the most prominent anti-lockdown protest groups, American Revolution 2.0 (AR2), has received extensive assistance from well-established far-right actors, some with extremist connections.posted by peeedro at 6:39 PM on May 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
AR2 presents itself as a grassroots network, but the recordings and other materials reveal its allies include a well-connected Tea Party co-founder and a family of serial online activists who have rolled out dozens of “reopen” websites and Facebook groups.
The private militias providing “security” for anti-lockdown protests, explained • Vox; Jane Coaston; May 11, 2020 • 'Militia groups asked to provide “security” are being decried by Republicans as “a bunch of jackasses.”'
“Different groups have different aims,” said Jared Yates Sexton, author of The People Are Going to Rise Like the Waters Upon Your Shore: A Story of American Rage (review). “Some are only interested in protecting themselves and their families from societal collapse, others are looking to battle the New World Order, some are explicitly interested in creating a white ethnostate for white Americans, others are angling for that second civil war that would start with a race war.”posted by ZeusHumms at 4:15 PM on May 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
But he argues that militia groups are using anti-shutdown order protests as cover — some for recruiting more people to their cause, but others looking to bring down the state and local government entirely.
Militia groups are “always searching for moments of cultural and political vulnerability” to exploit, Sexton said. And in the midst of a pandemic, they may have found it.
Arrested Dallas Hairdresser’s GoFundMe Launched Before She Even Reopened • Texas Monthly; Dan Solomon; May 8, 2020 • "As far as PR stunts go, this one has been lucrative."
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:07 PM on May 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
The Dallas salon [Salon à la Mode] has become pivotal in the stay-at-home-order debates after its owner, Shelley Luther, was arrested on Tuesday and sentenced to seven days in jail on a contempt of court charge. That stemmed from her refusal to apologize and close down her store until the second phase of Governor Greg Abbott’s public safety plan, which was scheduled to go into effect on May 18 so long as infections didn’t continued to spike.The GoFundMe was frozen at $500,060.
[The] GoFundMe campaign—run by a group calling themselves “Woke Patriots”—was created on April 23, one day before Luther reopened her salon. “We researched her and her cause,” campaign organizer Rick Hire wrote on the page, “and decided that we would approach her and offer to support her as our first patriot cause. She accepted our offer.”
Luther argued at a court hearing that she needed to open the salon for financial reasons. ... Paying bills and keeping families fed are understandable concerns, but by the time Luther made her argument, the situation—for her, at least—wasn’t quite so dire: two days earlier, she had been approved for a government loan under the Paycheck Protection Program, a loan that can be forgiven in full if at least 75 percent of the money is used to pay employee salaries. (The rest can go toward expenses like rent and utilities, and still qualify for loan forgiveness.) And now, of course—while Luther is able to cut all the hair she wants under the new order from Abbott—she’s also $500,000 richer [from the GoFundMe].
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:07 PM on May 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
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