The “onlinification” of face-to-face lectures is terrible
June 16, 2020 9:57 AM Subscribe
Cancel This Semester. Adopt a Coronavirus Student Bill Instead (Inside Higher Ed): "Some people may claim that remote learning can be very effective. But we are not dealing with faculty members who want to teach remotely, who have had much experience with it or who have had time to develop courses. And we are not dealing with students who prefer online courses, who have had time to acquire proper computer equipment or who can ask their dorm roommate for assistance. So the experience of remote learning now upon us is likely to be worse that what we’ve previously seen. ¶Moreover, a fair amount of evidence suggests that, even under good conditions, online education does not offer the same quality of education that face-to-face classes do."
Forced off campus by coronavirus, students aren’t won over by online education (NPR):
75% of College Students Unhappy With Quality of eLearning During Covid-19 (OneClass)
Related: How the Coronavirus Pandemic Has Shattered the Myth of College in America (The New Yorker)
Forced off campus by coronavirus, students aren’t won over by online education (NPR):
“What we’re creating is not the ideal of what remote instruction looks like,” said Robin Garrell, dean of the graduate division at UCLA. “It can be really exciting to think about, but no one has time to think about it right now. What we’re creating is not going to be representative at all of what is possible.”Colleges, be honest about distance learning failures (NY Daily News):
Like many Americans, I’ve tired of the endless lies, exaggerations and baselessly optimistic predictions about the coronavirus crisis brought to us by the president of the United States. [...] But our universities — operated mostly by Trump-hating liberals, like myself — are playing their own game of evasion and fabrication. Almost every school moved to a remote-learning format back in March, replacing face-to-face classes with online ones. And our party line is often depressingly similar to Trump’s: We’re good.This is online learning’s moment. For universities, it’s a total mess (Wired metered paywall):
“We just spent four weeks in pure panic and confusion, not knowing what we were meant to be doing,” says West. “For things like essays, all the support we’d normally get just wasn't accessible, because we weren't in [class] and it wasn't very clear where to get that help. So there were a lot of people struggling.”Online college isn’t worth $15K? Class-action suit against Rutgers seeks refunds for remote classes (NJ.com adblocker blocked)
As thousands of students logged into their university’s systems at the same time, poor connections and technical problems were the norm – and for the most part, teachers were left alone to troubleshoot issues, fix poor audio and video quality, and follow up with students individually to make sure they could access any missed content.
75% of College Students Unhappy With Quality of eLearning During Covid-19 (OneClass)
Related: How the Coronavirus Pandemic Has Shattered the Myth of College in America (The New Yorker)
I can attest that my colleagues and I are well aware of how suboptimal online instruction is for our particular college courses. And I’m up front with my students about it, too.
That said, students have to make the difficult choice: put their studies on hold for a year until they can enroll in face-to-face classes, or take the online option. There are opportunity costs either way. And those costs are not always distributed equitably.
posted by darkstar at 10:14 AM on June 16, 2020 [36 favorites]
That said, students have to make the difficult choice: put their studies on hold for a year until they can enroll in face-to-face classes, or take the online option. There are opportunity costs either way. And those costs are not always distributed equitably.
posted by darkstar at 10:14 AM on June 16, 2020 [36 favorites]
That first piece ("cancel this semester") refers to what happened this year (i.e. it was written in April)! It shouldn't be in a discussion on what's happening now.
I'm fulltime faculty. Summer is the time we should be developing courses. Everyone knows this calendar (and likely this academic year) is going to be significantly online. Our college and other ft (and adjunct!) faculty and admins....and others around the world are busting their asses to get online stuff better than the shitshow that was this spring. It's 12 weeks till fall - we're gonna fucking do it.
Under capitalism in the USA, if students don't go to college, colleges fail, and imho, if they die they will be replaced by kaplan or devry or worse. There are many many many many structural issues with college in the US: adjunctification, structural racism sexism (+other isms), inflated fees, credentialism etc etc etc but to kill 100+ years of the most diverse and intellectually and societally productive college ecosystem in the world (yes, I said it!) because we can't deal with 1-2 years of a pretty nonlethal virus pandemic (there are bigger pathogenic organism and ecosystem challenges than COVID-19 comin' down the pike!) and replace it by default with race-to-the-bottom McEducation....not great, and another nail in the coffin of the fuckin' enlightemnent
And before you say 'bout time re that nail, think what happens to societal initiatives that die at scale without a backup plan that is ready to go politically and institutionally. it isn't glorious revolution, it isn't decolonisation, it isn't fuckin democracy, it's cannibalism and death
posted by lalochezia at 10:14 AM on June 16, 2020 [86 favorites]
I'm fulltime faculty. Summer is the time we should be developing courses. Everyone knows this calendar (and likely this academic year) is going to be significantly online. Our college and other ft (and adjunct!) faculty and admins....and others around the world are busting their asses to get online stuff better than the shitshow that was this spring. It's 12 weeks till fall - we're gonna fucking do it.
Under capitalism in the USA, if students don't go to college, colleges fail, and imho, if they die they will be replaced by kaplan or devry or worse. There are many many many many structural issues with college in the US: adjunctification, structural racism sexism (+other isms), inflated fees, credentialism etc etc etc but to kill 100+ years of the most diverse and intellectually and societally productive college ecosystem in the world (yes, I said it!) because we can't deal with 1-2 years of a pretty nonlethal virus pandemic (there are bigger pathogenic organism and ecosystem challenges than COVID-19 comin' down the pike!) and replace it by default with race-to-the-bottom McEducation....not great, and another nail in the coffin of the fuckin' enlightemnent
And before you say 'bout time re that nail, think what happens to societal initiatives that die at scale without a backup plan that is ready to go politically and institutionally. it isn't glorious revolution, it isn't decolonisation, it isn't fuckin democracy, it's cannibalism and death
posted by lalochezia at 10:14 AM on June 16, 2020 [86 favorites]
I know the guy who used to be the design lead for Blackboard, one of those online education portals that lots of schools are turning to. He's an incredibly smart guy and is not there any more and I'm not surprised. It is immensely frustrating that Blackboard Inc has been a public company since 2004 and still is a piece of shit.
posted by nushustu at 10:18 AM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 10:18 AM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
I feel like universities are in deep, deep denial about the Fall. There is no way to make a dorm safe right now. If, like my university, you have a lot of first-year students who live in dorms and go home on weekends, dorms are totally going to be super-spreader venues. We are seriously going to kill our students' grandparents, and I don't understand why anyone thinks it's ok.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:19 AM on June 16, 2020 [64 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:19 AM on June 16, 2020 [64 favorites]
I know this post is geared to colleges, but as someone with a 3rd grader who did 3 months of distance learning, and as a dad who has volunteers in her classes a dozen or so times year, I think outsiders don't appreciate how incredibly hard effectively teaching 25-35 kids is, even when they are in the same room. Add in the largest disruption to daily life of the last 100 years? Yeah, there are going to be some growing pains.
However, as a non-college graduate who is doing well career-wise, my hope is the whole "you will die in a ditch without a college degree" way of thinking takes a large hit, just like the "if everyone works remotely the company will instantly go bankrupt" definitely has.
posted by sideshow at 10:20 AM on June 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
However, as a non-college graduate who is doing well career-wise, my hope is the whole "you will die in a ditch without a college degree" way of thinking takes a large hit, just like the "if everyone works remotely the company will instantly go bankrupt" definitely has.
posted by sideshow at 10:20 AM on June 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
I mean, my learning significantly improved when we switched to online. Online classes, even done poorly, were much better for my disabled ass. But I acknowledge that it's worse for a lot of other people (including many disabled people). And I'm privileged to have had a kind advisor to lend me an actually functional laptop to take home, or I'd probably be suffering more. But I am going to be deeply disappointed to see the online option disappear, because there's no way they'll keep it just for disabled people like me.
But it's been a nice semester, at least. Other than the ever-present threat of death, of course.
posted by brook horse at 10:27 AM on June 16, 2020 [24 favorites]
But it's been a nice semester, at least. Other than the ever-present threat of death, of course.
posted by brook horse at 10:27 AM on June 16, 2020 [24 favorites]
My institution is opening as usual in the fall, with the caveat that everyone must wear masks at all times on campus except students in their own personal dorm rooms can take them off I guess (where the students are intended to be eating: not clear), except that when Thanksgiving break comes everyone is expected to just move home.
I am trying to figure out what kind of mask is least uncomfortable to wear, most effective, and most importantly least likely to fall off while speaking frequently and moving around a room, because this is going to be necessary for me in the fall. I am not happy about it, to put it lightly.
posted by sciatrix at 10:28 AM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
I am trying to figure out what kind of mask is least uncomfortable to wear, most effective, and most importantly least likely to fall off while speaking frequently and moving around a room, because this is going to be necessary for me in the fall. I am not happy about it, to put it lightly.
posted by sciatrix at 10:28 AM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
I don't think universities are in denial so much as we are doing everything in our power to overhaul our own systems and processes in eight weeks so we can continue to teach. There are multiple possible scenarios: fully on-campus, fully-online, a mix of the two, alternations between them.... it's dizzying to try to plan for. Worse, many staff are still WFH so crappy Zooms/Teams meetings are the venue. It's very much changing a tire while you drive on two wheels.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:32 AM on June 16, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 10:32 AM on June 16, 2020 [18 favorites]
I have a college freshman and a college senior who I am sending back to their campuses this fall. I feel pretty good about it, based on what those schools have shared of their plans. Then again, at home we wear our masks and we don't socialize too much and we wash our hands a lot, so we're the weirdos.
A friend has a child who will start at Northwestern this September, and their president said that because of the quarter system they start classes a month later than everyone else -- and they plan to take advantage of that delay in order to see what happens. *shrug* I wish the .edu where I work also had more time, but honestly, higher education is like a shark, and if we stop moving forward, everyone but the top dozen or so universities will die.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:39 AM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
A friend has a child who will start at Northwestern this September, and their president said that because of the quarter system they start classes a month later than everyone else -- and they plan to take advantage of that delay in order to see what happens. *shrug* I wish the .edu where I work also had more time, but honestly, higher education is like a shark, and if we stop moving forward, everyone but the top dozen or so universities will die.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:39 AM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
There is no way to make a dorm safe right now.
That's kind of ridiculous: can't an apartment be made safe? Once someone is done with a two-week quarantine, do we brick up the room where they stayed? That's just cleaning -- and in a dorm, the university can send through crews several times per day to scour high-touch surfaces, to refill gel dispensers & change the trash bags, and to fumigate periodically.
Mind you, the students are going to be really tough to coerce into good behavior...
But so are the faculty: yesterday in our big town hall event, one of them asked if they could remove their mask to teach since it muffled their voice. (The CDC says that a transparent face shield is not a substitute for a fabric face covering, so no. But you may wear both.)
posted by wenestvedt at 10:45 AM on June 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
That's kind of ridiculous: can't an apartment be made safe? Once someone is done with a two-week quarantine, do we brick up the room where they stayed? That's just cleaning -- and in a dorm, the university can send through crews several times per day to scour high-touch surfaces, to refill gel dispensers & change the trash bags, and to fumigate periodically.
Mind you, the students are going to be really tough to coerce into good behavior...
But so are the faculty: yesterday in our big town hall event, one of them asked if they could remove their mask to teach since it muffled their voice. (The CDC says that a transparent face shield is not a substitute for a fabric face covering, so no. But you may wear both.)
posted by wenestvedt at 10:45 AM on June 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
That's kind of ridiculous: can't an apartment be made safe?
I don't typically leave my apartment door open for friends to wander in; I don't typically hang out in the hallway of my apartment building; I have yet to my knowledge shared a bathroom with my fellow apartment-dwellers; I don't eat with my fellow apartment-dwellers in a cafeteria.
posted by Automocar at 10:50 AM on June 16, 2020 [58 favorites]
I don't typically leave my apartment door open for friends to wander in; I don't typically hang out in the hallway of my apartment building; I have yet to my knowledge shared a bathroom with my fellow apartment-dwellers; I don't eat with my fellow apartment-dwellers in a cafeteria.
posted by Automocar at 10:50 AM on June 16, 2020 [58 favorites]
This past Sunday's Patriot Act episode (Is college still worth it? Hasan explores how universities became corporatized over the past few decades and if the rising costs of college are still worth it in a post-pandemic world) touches on some of these issues.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:53 AM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:53 AM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
So, I made the wise choice to go back to college just a week before the shutdown hit, so I’m in a unique spot to view all of this. I’m currently taking two online courses with the plan being to start face-to-face classes in the fall (assuming they’re face-to-face, of course).
The school that I’m attending has a pretty large online and distance learning curriculum because it has a significant number of military students. The online class design has been pretty solid, although there is still a hole where the face-to-face component usually resides. I don’t know how that can ever be replicated in an online format (Zoom meetings as classes definitely aren’t it). Now, I am just taking BIO 100 and ENG 102, so the content is general enough that I don’t think I’m really missing much.
I am concerned, however, that I do have courses related to my major (secondary education-industrial technology) that simply can’t be taught online. How do you teach automotive repair remotely?
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:58 AM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
The school that I’m attending has a pretty large online and distance learning curriculum because it has a significant number of military students. The online class design has been pretty solid, although there is still a hole where the face-to-face component usually resides. I don’t know how that can ever be replicated in an online format (Zoom meetings as classes definitely aren’t it). Now, I am just taking BIO 100 and ENG 102, so the content is general enough that I don’t think I’m really missing much.
I am concerned, however, that I do have courses related to my major (secondary education-industrial technology) that simply can’t be taught online. How do you teach automotive repair remotely?
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:58 AM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
As someone with a.) a child scheduled to enter their freshman year at college and b.) a long career in online education, these issues are top of mind in our household right now.
A few weeks back, there was a series of tweets from a professor of economics that added some interesting fuel to the fire. This gentleman has a strong opinion that deferring next year is a bad idea.
He then goes on to explain his opinion, largely from an economic perspective. Many of his points are debatable, to say the least, but our family has found it useful as a way to discuss the future.
As someone who has been producing online courses, largely for an "adult education" audience instead of collegiate, I am extremely aware of the limitations of what we can offer. Despite having been around in some form for at least 20 years, I think online education is still in it's infancy and yes, it's hard to do well and I can tell you experience that the transition from in-person to online instruction is not easy for most.
A great in-person instructor does NOT necessarily translate to a great remote or virtual one. The type of work and preparation between the two modes is very different, and I've had at least one instructor swear off doing online courses because they weren't up for the time and effort required.
Being a parent looking at a massive tuition bill for traditional college, while also involved in an industry that has an implicit mission of replacing said traditionalism, is a strange place to be. I questioned the value of a college degree even before coronavirus, but had (somewhat) made my peace with it. Now, with the prospect of paying for an online semester (or 2, or 3, or who knows?) for an experience that is subpar (especially with my knowledge of the process) I am deeply on the fence.
Going back to the tweets above, there was one point that did resonate. So if a student decides to defer in the hopes that in 12 or 18 months things will be back to "normal", what are they doing with that time? I can tell you from the last few month's experience, there are limited options.
posted by jeremias at 11:13 AM on June 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
A few weeks back, there was a series of tweets from a professor of economics that added some interesting fuel to the fire. This gentleman has a strong opinion that deferring next year is a bad idea.
He then goes on to explain his opinion, largely from an economic perspective. Many of his points are debatable, to say the least, but our family has found it useful as a way to discuss the future.
As someone who has been producing online courses, largely for an "adult education" audience instead of collegiate, I am extremely aware of the limitations of what we can offer. Despite having been around in some form for at least 20 years, I think online education is still in it's infancy and yes, it's hard to do well and I can tell you experience that the transition from in-person to online instruction is not easy for most.
A great in-person instructor does NOT necessarily translate to a great remote or virtual one. The type of work and preparation between the two modes is very different, and I've had at least one instructor swear off doing online courses because they weren't up for the time and effort required.
Being a parent looking at a massive tuition bill for traditional college, while also involved in an industry that has an implicit mission of replacing said traditionalism, is a strange place to be. I questioned the value of a college degree even before coronavirus, but had (somewhat) made my peace with it. Now, with the prospect of paying for an online semester (or 2, or 3, or who knows?) for an experience that is subpar (especially with my knowledge of the process) I am deeply on the fence.
Going back to the tweets above, there was one point that did resonate. So if a student decides to defer in the hopes that in 12 or 18 months things will be back to "normal", what are they doing with that time? I can tell you from the last few month's experience, there are limited options.
- Traveling abroad? Umm no, if even possible, this was an early one to go onto the Nope list.
- Getting a job or internship? Well, easier said than done. That job will either be remote itself or one with an increased chance of getting COVID. In both cases, is that actually better than getting a remote education? Very hard to say with all the variables in play.
posted by jeremias at 11:13 AM on June 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
I know the guy who used to be the design lead for Blackboard, one of those online education portals that lots of schools are turning to. He's an incredibly smart guy and is not there any more and I'm not surprised. It is immensely frustrating that Blackboard Inc has been a public company since 2004
Was the smart part the IPO? Because the design is and has always been terrible.
A great in-person instructor does NOT necessarily translate to a great remote or virtual one.
Could easily be the reverse.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:20 AM on June 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
Was the smart part the IPO? Because the design is and has always been terrible.
A great in-person instructor does NOT necessarily translate to a great remote or virtual one.
Could easily be the reverse.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:20 AM on June 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
Like many Americans, I’ve tired of the endless lies, exaggerations and baselessly optimistic predictions about the coronavirus crisis brought to us by the president of the United States. [...] But our universities — operated mostly by Trump-hating liberals, like myself — are playing their own game of evasion and fabrication.
Ooo! Ooo! I know what incentive system the two share in common that leads to the observed similarities! It starts with "c" and ends with "apitalism"!
posted by eviemath at 11:24 AM on June 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
Ooo! Ooo! I know what incentive system the two share in common that leads to the observed similarities! It starts with "c" and ends with "apitalism"!
posted by eviemath at 11:24 AM on June 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
And, while I've had a lot of bad online classes, it's not like in-person classes can't just as easily be phoned in (heh) with PowerPoints, hand outs, "study guides" (i.e. giving the answers to a test in advance so they can be memorized) and openly not giving a shit what students are doing on their laptops and phones or if anyone has done the reading.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:24 AM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:24 AM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
Also in the middle of this! My kids (10 and 13) will be facing some (as yet undetermined) mix of in-person and online learning in the fall, the company I work for does K-12 software and is hip-deep in helping districts deal with online learning, and I teach a graduate-level course at Berkeley starting in August and made the call to make it online-only.
Berkeley (or at least my corner of it) is handling this by making it officially possible to do in-person learning where needed, but with enough stringent safety requirements that it makes sense to move fully online if at all possible. Which sounds like I'm complaining but after hearing from friends at different schools dealing with administrators who seem terrifyingly blasé about the whole pandemic ting, I don't mind being nudged into the safer direction.
I'm lucky -- I love teaching in person, but my subject lends itself super well to online and I've spent the last few months practicing similar skills for work. But writ large, this is all messy as heck.
posted by feckless at 11:26 AM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
Berkeley (or at least my corner of it) is handling this by making it officially possible to do in-person learning where needed, but with enough stringent safety requirements that it makes sense to move fully online if at all possible. Which sounds like I'm complaining but after hearing from friends at different schools dealing with administrators who seem terrifyingly blasé about the whole pandemic ting, I don't mind being nudged into the safer direction.
I'm lucky -- I love teaching in person, but my subject lends itself super well to online and I've spent the last few months practicing similar skills for work. But writ large, this is all messy as heck.
posted by feckless at 11:26 AM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
We thought about what our son could do instead of starting his freshman year of college:
- Travel abroad? Literally impossible.
- Get a job? Competition is fierce, and his current hourly gig (a local pizza joint) loves him but it's a treadmill.
- Volunteering? All the opportunities have the same limitations of in-person classes.
- Sit around and play video games? He does that anyway.
- Scout camp is cancelled, and council has warned us off any events of two hours or more.
- Hang out at the beach with his friends? Sunburn, dissipation, sloth. :7)
And in nine months, he would be back where he is now, trying to decide if it's safe to go to college -- but he'd be a year behind everyone, and with even more competition for every opportunity than he has now.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:26 AM on June 16, 2020 [19 favorites]
- Travel abroad? Literally impossible.
- Get a job? Competition is fierce, and his current hourly gig (a local pizza joint) loves him but it's a treadmill.
- Volunteering? All the opportunities have the same limitations of in-person classes.
- Sit around and play video games? He does that anyway.
- Scout camp is cancelled, and council has warned us off any events of two hours or more.
- Hang out at the beach with his friends? Sunburn, dissipation, sloth. :7)
And in nine months, he would be back where he is now, trying to decide if it's safe to go to college -- but he'd be a year behind everyone, and with even more competition for every opportunity than he has now.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:26 AM on June 16, 2020 [19 favorites]
how about a few online classes with a local community college, supplemented with Khan Academy or the like? Not a complete drift, but not full steam ahead, either. Lower risk, while we see how things pan out?
posted by one weird trick at 11:34 AM on June 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by one weird trick at 11:34 AM on June 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
what our son could do instead of starting his freshman year of college
Learn and practice a craft or skill? Depending on what your environment and budget can accomodate.
There's all the domestic stuff that's been visibly trending like cooking, baking, preserving, gardening, etc., but also could be creative writing, or visual art, or music. Or coding, hobby electronics & radio, 3d modeling & printing, leatherworking, woodworking....
he'd be a year behind everyone
This is really not such a big deal, especially intellectually. Socially, maybe.
A lot of those things require more actual study than I did my first year of college.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:36 AM on June 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
Learn and practice a craft or skill? Depending on what your environment and budget can accomodate.
There's all the domestic stuff that's been visibly trending like cooking, baking, preserving, gardening, etc., but also could be creative writing, or visual art, or music. Or coding, hobby electronics & radio, 3d modeling & printing, leatherworking, woodworking....
he'd be a year behind everyone
This is really not such a big deal, especially intellectually. Socially, maybe.
A lot of those things require more actual study than I did my first year of college.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:36 AM on June 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
Re: the community college option, it's harder to get in as a transfer, and often transfers get less financial aid. Which is bullshit, but there it is. And given how many people are likely to take this option, it's going to be even worse next year.
posted by brook horse at 11:37 AM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 11:37 AM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
My state recently made CC free for everyone, and the system is creaking under the flood of traffic. So many new students, even before COVID, and not like there are more library books, seats, PCs in the labs, professors, or parking spots.
It's total Tragedy Of The Commons. :7(
posted by wenestvedt at 11:39 AM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's total Tragedy Of The Commons. :7(
posted by wenestvedt at 11:39 AM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
wenestvedt, is your son fluent in any non-English language? Intensive study along those lines might offer an advantage against the competition you mention, and is useful in general.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:41 AM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:41 AM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Here in Indiana, a state legislator has introduced a bill that would cut-off all federal and state funds to any school or college that does not re-start in-person classes this fall. Yes, he has an R next to his name.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:41 AM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 11:41 AM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
Our institution is moving to 75% occupancy for dorms, with the goal of moving any class over 50 students to solely online, and smaller classes to blended learning. In a recent email to faculty they plan to have research back to 50% capacity when school starts for students, and have started planning football practices. I can understand the urgency of getting back to relative normality, especially since years of neo-liberal mismanagement at the institution, federal, and state level have left our university as a beggar to the whims of the market and donors, but I simply do not see this plan working.
There are plans in place to stop oubreaks. Daily monitoring, contact tracing, greater restrictions on students and staff. All an outbreak takes is one slip-up in a nearly infinite series of individual choices (e.g. a student sneaks out to an off-campus party to see a crush, contracts the disease, transmits asymptomatically during a study session with 5 other people). Adults who are even more susceptible to dying with this disease haven't shown themselves to have restrain, I can't imagine a small city of 10,000 young adults will do better.
I have a feeling that as outbreaks rip across college campuses there will be too much political pressure to close, and you're going to run into situations where you're once again asking you faculty to move to online learning at the drop of a hat along with parents and students who are (rightfully) outraged at paying full tuition for online instruction.
I don't see any of this going well for higher education, and frankly I doubt that the fascist American right wing could be any happier about that.
posted by codacorolla at 11:42 AM on June 16, 2020 [23 favorites]
There are plans in place to stop oubreaks. Daily monitoring, contact tracing, greater restrictions on students and staff. All an outbreak takes is one slip-up in a nearly infinite series of individual choices (e.g. a student sneaks out to an off-campus party to see a crush, contracts the disease, transmits asymptomatically during a study session with 5 other people). Adults who are even more susceptible to dying with this disease haven't shown themselves to have restrain, I can't imagine a small city of 10,000 young adults will do better.
I have a feeling that as outbreaks rip across college campuses there will be too much political pressure to close, and you're going to run into situations where you're once again asking you faculty to move to online learning at the drop of a hat along with parents and students who are (rightfully) outraged at paying full tuition for online instruction.
I don't see any of this going well for higher education, and frankly I doubt that the fascist American right wing could be any happier about that.
posted by codacorolla at 11:42 AM on June 16, 2020 [23 favorites]
In the wider context of that article from the New Yorker listed at the end of the post, I'm put into mind of this from previously
When, whether and how to start is a conundrum.
As for the students who are somewhere already in the middle, having invested time and expense towards a degree but aren't there yet? Honestly, I think state educational regulatory authorities should at the very least mandate that time-to-degree restrictions be extended.
Not gonna happen probably because the colleges and universities would pitch a fit about not being able to fill the seats. But in addition to giving students and their families some breathing room to decide what's really best for them rather than for their mounting pile of educational debt, it might also save some colleges and universities from their current denial, and give them some leverage with their boards of trustees/regents/visitors that it just isn't going to be responsible to try to operate in the black for a year or two.
Here in Indiana [...]
Or, yeah, not going to happen because of that.
sigh
posted by one weird trick at 11:50 AM on June 16, 2020
When, whether and how to start is a conundrum.
As for the students who are somewhere already in the middle, having invested time and expense towards a degree but aren't there yet? Honestly, I think state educational regulatory authorities should at the very least mandate that time-to-degree restrictions be extended.
Not gonna happen probably because the colleges and universities would pitch a fit about not being able to fill the seats. But in addition to giving students and their families some breathing room to decide what's really best for them rather than for their mounting pile of educational debt, it might also save some colleges and universities from their current denial, and give them some leverage with their boards of trustees/regents/visitors that it just isn't going to be responsible to try to operate in the black for a year or two.
Here in Indiana [...]
Or, yeah, not going to happen because of that.
sigh
posted by one weird trick at 11:50 AM on June 16, 2020
I have a kid ostensibly starting this fall. As shitty as most online learning is, I'd expect a 40% tuition discount, and waiving all campus student fees: student center, sports, bands and comics, gyms and pools, libraries, uni wifi, physical plant expenses...
posted by j_curiouser at 11:52 AM on June 16, 2020
posted by j_curiouser at 11:52 AM on June 16, 2020
one weird trick: ... the colleges and universities would pitch a fit about not being able to fill the seats.
Complicating that, some pre-professional programs -- e.g., nurses and teachers -- have a layer of licensure and accreditation on top of the university's own accreditation, and I don't see that particular oil tanker doing a 360-degree turn any time soon.
When my daughter's college sent the kids home this spring, only the nursing students stayed on campus in order to finish out their placements so they wouldn't fall afoul of the regulations.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:54 AM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
Complicating that, some pre-professional programs -- e.g., nurses and teachers -- have a layer of licensure and accreditation on top of the university's own accreditation, and I don't see that particular oil tanker doing a 360-degree turn any time soon.
When my daughter's college sent the kids home this spring, only the nursing students stayed on campus in order to finish out their placements so they wouldn't fall afoul of the regulations.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:54 AM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
I'm involved in a few ways:
- since I'm laid off, I'm starting a UX/UI (depends on electives) certificate next week! I'm stoked to have the time and the ability to do the online courses and getting to go back to school is exciting. I am feeling pretty hopeful about it and like this is kind of a neat time to join up with an online-educated cohort.
- my grade 9 son's teachers are SO NOT online educators but I have been super impressed with how quickly they responded, and they clearly have shared information together. I would say the downside is in some courses (math) he's covered probably 3/4 of what they would have in person, if that, but they are aware and there's a remediation plan. His teachers were open that they were learning too and modelled lifelong learning so strongly. Socially distanced hugs to them all.
My son has really engaged and he is taking an online class voluntarily this summer. But he's also using the time to learn skills he wouldn't have time for usually. Power tools (scroll saw, drill, eventually a miter saw) are coming up.
I don't think I would send him for a first year of university that was all distance education at this point. My bias is that had I taken a year off of university when I had health issues, I think I would have been so much better off...but I had this idea that I had to keep going or I would be 'behind.' As a result I've been behind permanently, because it sucked. I feel like this situation could be similar for some students.
- my grade 3 son's teacher was opposed to online learning for equity reasons. She was a really strong classroom teacher. His online experience has been abysmal and embarrassing; he's been filling out the same two templates daily since March. He now hates learning online and possibly hates school more than ever before.
- Google Classroom probably can be set up really well but the way our schools have used it, it's confusing as hell (and I have used a ton of products in my time) and has been an impediment to learning or tracking information. My university uses Canvas and I'm really hoping it's better.
- moving Martial Arts instruction online, I have really come to appreciate the equity issues in online education..the slices of our students' lives that I see on Zoom range so much, and that's still a narrow and relatively privileged slice. A multi-generational family in a small space can make concentrating so hard, never mind everything else.
This has been a lesson in how online education is really different and requires a different skill set. I agree that we're not there, and I think it will be very individual what works and what doesn't. For my own certificate, being able to do it from home on my own time is great. For my littlest guy it's a total loss. We can't apply one solution to all situations.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:01 PM on June 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
- since I'm laid off, I'm starting a UX/UI (depends on electives) certificate next week! I'm stoked to have the time and the ability to do the online courses and getting to go back to school is exciting. I am feeling pretty hopeful about it and like this is kind of a neat time to join up with an online-educated cohort.
- my grade 9 son's teachers are SO NOT online educators but I have been super impressed with how quickly they responded, and they clearly have shared information together. I would say the downside is in some courses (math) he's covered probably 3/4 of what they would have in person, if that, but they are aware and there's a remediation plan. His teachers were open that they were learning too and modelled lifelong learning so strongly. Socially distanced hugs to them all.
My son has really engaged and he is taking an online class voluntarily this summer. But he's also using the time to learn skills he wouldn't have time for usually. Power tools (scroll saw, drill, eventually a miter saw) are coming up.
I don't think I would send him for a first year of university that was all distance education at this point. My bias is that had I taken a year off of university when I had health issues, I think I would have been so much better off...but I had this idea that I had to keep going or I would be 'behind.' As a result I've been behind permanently, because it sucked. I feel like this situation could be similar for some students.
- my grade 3 son's teacher was opposed to online learning for equity reasons. She was a really strong classroom teacher. His online experience has been abysmal and embarrassing; he's been filling out the same two templates daily since March. He now hates learning online and possibly hates school more than ever before.
- Google Classroom probably can be set up really well but the way our schools have used it, it's confusing as hell (and I have used a ton of products in my time) and has been an impediment to learning or tracking information. My university uses Canvas and I'm really hoping it's better.
- moving Martial Arts instruction online, I have really come to appreciate the equity issues in online education..the slices of our students' lives that I see on Zoom range so much, and that's still a narrow and relatively privileged slice. A multi-generational family in a small space can make concentrating so hard, never mind everything else.
This has been a lesson in how online education is really different and requires a different skill set. I agree that we're not there, and I think it will be very individual what works and what doesn't. For my own certificate, being able to do it from home on my own time is great. For my littlest guy it's a total loss. We can't apply one solution to all situations.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:01 PM on June 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
This hits home.
I'm supposed to teach two seminars this fall, and our university is in the midst of planning. In fact, I read the comments here between two webinars (so-called "town hall meetings") on the subject. Short version: if the school's entirely online, they'll lose a lot of money. So they're planning for some kind of HyFlex combination of f2f with in-person. I'm planning on that mix, and might teach it remotely.
I'm also teaching a class right now (gaming and education), which is entirely online. I'm trying a lot of practices to see how they enrich the student experience.
Meanwhile, our son is staying with us. He was taking classes in person at his university, 533 miles away, but moved in with us in March when they went wholly online. He also took a summer class entirely online - wasn't that happy with it - and is worried about fall options.
posted by doctornemo at 12:07 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm supposed to teach two seminars this fall, and our university is in the midst of planning. In fact, I read the comments here between two webinars (so-called "town hall meetings") on the subject. Short version: if the school's entirely online, they'll lose a lot of money. So they're planning for some kind of HyFlex combination of f2f with in-person. I'm planning on that mix, and might teach it remotely.
I'm also teaching a class right now (gaming and education), which is entirely online. I'm trying a lot of practices to see how they enrich the student experience.
Meanwhile, our son is staying with us. He was taking classes in person at his university, 533 miles away, but moved in with us in March when they went wholly online. He also took a summer class entirely online - wasn't that happy with it - and is worried about fall options.
posted by doctornemo at 12:07 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
I guess my TL;DR on this is that, if we're moving towards a better understanding of Covid as a treatable illness, the risk/benefit analysis of closing colleges or moving exclusively online starts to look like a clearly bad choice.
I agree with this - that what was known about covid in March was so small that all sorts of wild ideas were rational - now we are getting better and more information about it, and the ultimate decisions are going to be better, and that opening schools (based on science-based covid outcomes) is not careless.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:13 PM on June 16, 2020
I agree with this - that what was known about covid in March was so small that all sorts of wild ideas were rational - now we are getting better and more information about it, and the ultimate decisions are going to be better, and that opening schools (based on science-based covid outcomes) is not careless.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:13 PM on June 16, 2020
I am fortunate not to have to fight for equity & services for my kids, but I have real fears of what services can/will be provided should some of the more radical plans be enacted in elementary schools. (This applies to college students, too, to a lesser extent.)
I heard that one nearby town was considering moving all the middle- and high school kids to F/T distance learning, while every school building in town was converted to K-5 in order to space out the desks. They would need so many new teachers! They wouldn't be able to pay the teachers & aides they have now! But they would need even more aides!
Ugh, this could be awful for those families. :7(
posted by wenestvedt at 12:19 PM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
I heard that one nearby town was considering moving all the middle- and high school kids to F/T distance learning, while every school building in town was converted to K-5 in order to space out the desks. They would need so many new teachers! They wouldn't be able to pay the teachers & aides they have now! But they would need even more aides!
Ugh, this could be awful for those families. :7(
posted by wenestvedt at 12:19 PM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
I don't see that particular oil tanker doing a 360-degree turn any time soon.
I don't see any sober ship's captain making a 360-degree turn.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:23 PM on June 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
I don't see any sober ship's captain making a 360-degree turn.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:23 PM on June 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
Professionally, I study higher education with a focus on its future development.
I appreciate the selection of articles in this post, as they mostly give a good sense of how people negatively viewed online education (or "remote instruction") during spring term 2020. I was especially happy to see the one that polled students and those which interviewed students.
I don't think it's a useful collection for looking ahead to this fall.
First, it's essential to distinguish between the extraordinary leap online made in March - with no advance planning, at incredible speed (for academia), and often in an ad hoc way - with what we can achieve this fall, for which we have months to prepare. One popular distinction to make that explains this is the difference between emergency remote teaching and well-planned online learning. I'm not saying the latter will be easy or automatically splendid. But the different between the two settings is striking.
Second, none of the linked articles acknowledges that folks have been teaching online for decades. We have tons of practice and experience to draw upon. There are professionals, too, at nearly every campus who have studied this: instructional designers, academic technologists. IT folks in general and librarians have also played roles in making online classes not only possible, but better. And many of these people have written about their work. It's really easy to find. We're not inventing this stuff from scratch, in other words. And - gasp! horrors! - people other than faculty members might have something to contribute.
(These folks did heroic work in spring 2020 and have received nearly no recognition for it. I would love to replace the next kvetching screed by a tenured prof about how hard teaching is online with one about academic computing people who worked 16 hours days for weeks.)
Third, thinking of online=bad, f2f=glorious is really a mistake on multiple levels. It ignores the huge range and diversity of experience. It romanticizes in-person education, which is boneheaded as even a minute's reflection points out. As snuffleupagus points out, there's plenty of lousy in-person teaching, which the romantic binary obliterates.
posted by doctornemo at 12:27 PM on June 16, 2020 [44 favorites]
I appreciate the selection of articles in this post, as they mostly give a good sense of how people negatively viewed online education (or "remote instruction") during spring term 2020. I was especially happy to see the one that polled students and those which interviewed students.
I don't think it's a useful collection for looking ahead to this fall.
First, it's essential to distinguish between the extraordinary leap online made in March - with no advance planning, at incredible speed (for academia), and often in an ad hoc way - with what we can achieve this fall, for which we have months to prepare. One popular distinction to make that explains this is the difference between emergency remote teaching and well-planned online learning. I'm not saying the latter will be easy or automatically splendid. But the different between the two settings is striking.
Second, none of the linked articles acknowledges that folks have been teaching online for decades. We have tons of practice and experience to draw upon. There are professionals, too, at nearly every campus who have studied this: instructional designers, academic technologists. IT folks in general and librarians have also played roles in making online classes not only possible, but better. And many of these people have written about their work. It's really easy to find. We're not inventing this stuff from scratch, in other words. And - gasp! horrors! - people other than faculty members might have something to contribute.
(These folks did heroic work in spring 2020 and have received nearly no recognition for it. I would love to replace the next kvetching screed by a tenured prof about how hard teaching is online with one about academic computing people who worked 16 hours days for weeks.)
Third, thinking of online=bad, f2f=glorious is really a mistake on multiple levels. It ignores the huge range and diversity of experience. It romanticizes in-person education, which is boneheaded as even a minute's reflection points out. As snuffleupagus points out, there's plenty of lousy in-person teaching, which the romantic binary obliterates.
posted by doctornemo at 12:27 PM on June 16, 2020 [44 favorites]
Kirth Gerson: I don't see any sober ship's captain making a 360-degree turn.
*squints thoughtfully* How many accreditation cycles have you been through? It can be...weird.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:28 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
*squints thoughtfully* How many accreditation cycles have you been through? It can be...weird.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:28 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
Under capitalism in the USA, if students don't go to college, colleges fail, and imho, if they die they will be replaced by kaplan or devry or worse.
Betsy DeVos will be waiting in the wings, making rules that proliferate and enrich these low-quality, for-profit replacements, so that she and her business and religious friends can reap the windfall.
Unless we all get together in November and vote her and her boss out.
In any case, students perform better at the undergraduate level, on average, if they take a gap year. With the threat of coronavirus, taking the year to do something else — including getting out the vote — may be the smartest thing in the long-term view.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:28 PM on June 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
Betsy DeVos will be waiting in the wings, making rules that proliferate and enrich these low-quality, for-profit replacements, so that she and her business and religious friends can reap the windfall.
Unless we all get together in November and vote her and her boss out.
In any case, students perform better at the undergraduate level, on average, if they take a gap year. With the threat of coronavirus, taking the year to do something else — including getting out the vote — may be the smartest thing in the long-term view.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:28 PM on June 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
Here's a network graph of Cornell.
Right now, I've just sent my toddler back to daycare, in an area where case numbers have been dropping, and we didn't have any in our county in the last couple of days, and it's still a little nerve wracking. We're adding 9 additional close contacts (+ their families) now to our pretty contained bubble.
From that thread:
Key findings: the average Cornell student shares courses with a max of 529 other students over a week of classes. (Actual will be lower, because attendance is not 100%.)
We can break up that graph a bit with smaller classes, especially focusing on big lectures. But that graph doesn't even take connections outside of class into consideration.
So, if you've got a kid in school, your mental model of "Kid goes back to college" should definitely not be "Well, it'll basically be like it is right now", unless you're routinely seeing 500 people each week.
posted by damayanti at 12:30 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
Right now, I've just sent my toddler back to daycare, in an area where case numbers have been dropping, and we didn't have any in our county in the last couple of days, and it's still a little nerve wracking. We're adding 9 additional close contacts (+ their families) now to our pretty contained bubble.
From that thread:
Key findings: the average Cornell student shares courses with a max of 529 other students over a week of classes. (Actual will be lower, because attendance is not 100%.)
We can break up that graph a bit with smaller classes, especially focusing on big lectures. But that graph doesn't even take connections outside of class into consideration.
So, if you've got a kid in school, your mental model of "Kid goes back to college" should definitely not be "Well, it'll basically be like it is right now", unless you're routinely seeing 500 people each week.
posted by damayanti at 12:30 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
Since the giant state college near me has become a diploma mill more concerned with extracting money from foreign student-tourists than actually educating, I'd quite frankly love to see the entire ponzi scheme collapse.
American higher education needs restructuring, and as much as this sucks for the kids stuck in the middle, maybe this is our opportunity to do that.
posted by madajb at 12:36 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
American higher education needs restructuring, and as much as this sucks for the kids stuck in the middle, maybe this is our opportunity to do that.
posted by madajb at 12:36 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
"Moreover, a fair amount of evidence suggests that, even under good conditions, online education does not offer the same quality of education that face-to-face classes do."
I have not taken any online college courses, but I routinely had 300 people lectures for things "Core Requirements" classes.
I can't see how an online lecture could be any worse and in some ways I feel it could be a lot better.
posted by madajb at 12:43 PM on June 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
I have not taken any online college courses, but I routinely had 300 people lectures for things "Core Requirements" classes.
I can't see how an online lecture could be any worse and in some ways I feel it could be a lot better.
posted by madajb at 12:43 PM on June 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
- Google Classroom probably can be set up really well but the way our schools have used it, it's confusing as hell (and I have used a ton of products in my time) and has been an impediment to learning or tracking information. My university uses Canvas and I'm really hoping it's better.
Maybe a little off-topic but: Google Classroom is confusing as hell unless you’ve got a teacher who is really expert at it, uses a consistent format and you’re used to it as a student. It’s fine for what it is (free, better than nothing, did I mention free).
Canvas is really pretty decent, considering, on both the student end and the teacher end, and is far more robust than Google Classroom. I am really excited that my district is mandating Canvas for all teachers next year; it was *awful* for parents to have teachers using a mix of whatever they were personally comfortable with, although I understand why it happened. I- and a lot of public school teachers I know- am spending a lot of my summer planning how to best teach my class online or in a hybrid of online and in-person. Because of my subject area it’s a losing game and is inevitably going to be a hollow shell of a normal class, but it should at least be better than the emergency situation we had in the spring. I don’t think that face-to-face= good and online=bad, necessarily, but a
since I teach a skills-based class that is most effective with immediate iterative feedback for students it’s super-hard to figure out how to transform that into something that students will find valuable and engaging at anywhere close to the levels that they find face-to-face class engaging.
posted by charmedimsure at 12:44 PM on June 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
Maybe a little off-topic but: Google Classroom is confusing as hell unless you’ve got a teacher who is really expert at it, uses a consistent format and you’re used to it as a student. It’s fine for what it is (free, better than nothing, did I mention free).
Canvas is really pretty decent, considering, on both the student end and the teacher end, and is far more robust than Google Classroom. I am really excited that my district is mandating Canvas for all teachers next year; it was *awful* for parents to have teachers using a mix of whatever they were personally comfortable with, although I understand why it happened. I- and a lot of public school teachers I know- am spending a lot of my summer planning how to best teach my class online or in a hybrid of online and in-person. Because of my subject area it’s a losing game and is inevitably going to be a hollow shell of a normal class, but it should at least be better than the emergency situation we had in the spring. I don’t think that face-to-face= good and online=bad, necessarily, but a
since I teach a skills-based class that is most effective with immediate iterative feedback for students it’s super-hard to figure out how to transform that into something that students will find valuable and engaging at anywhere close to the levels that they find face-to-face class engaging.
posted by charmedimsure at 12:44 PM on June 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
I'm fulltime faculty. Summer is the time we should be developing courses... It's 12 weeks till fall - we're gonna fucking do it.
I'm adjunct faculty. Summer is the time we teach courses, just like Spring, except with a newly mandated online-available textbook. The textbook change would have required the entire course to be redesigned even if it was being taught in person. It's actually quite a bit more stressful than the Spring was.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:58 PM on June 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
I'm adjunct faculty. Summer is the time we teach courses, just like Spring, except with a newly mandated online-available textbook. The textbook change would have required the entire course to be redesigned even if it was being taught in person. It's actually quite a bit more stressful than the Spring was.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:58 PM on June 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
I can't see how an online lecture could be any worse and in some ways I feel it could be a lot better.
I have done both and I mostly prefer the online format to the large lecture, provided the instructor has assistance or is able to properly mic/film themself.
The advantages of small, in-person courses for many people are quite clear over online versions. These advantages mostly disappear in large lectures. There is very little pedagogical benefit to watching someone talk from 30 feet away, and I'll take seeing someone's face clearly over having to interpret their body language any day.
posted by aspersioncast at 12:59 PM on June 16, 2020 [13 favorites]
I have done both and I mostly prefer the online format to the large lecture, provided the instructor has assistance or is able to properly mic/film themself.
The advantages of small, in-person courses for many people are quite clear over online versions. These advantages mostly disappear in large lectures. There is very little pedagogical benefit to watching someone talk from 30 feet away, and I'll take seeing someone's face clearly over having to interpret their body language any day.
posted by aspersioncast at 12:59 PM on June 16, 2020 [13 favorites]
Don't get too comfortable with Canvas. The private equity firm that bought Canvas's parent company laid off a huge portion of their staff earlier this year, all but guaranteeing that the product will stagnate.
posted by schmod at 1:10 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by schmod at 1:10 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
I work at one of the big state university's that is planning (very vocally! catch our president on CNN talking about it!) to open back for students in Fall. For whatever reason, our brand new president is super chummy with our governor (R), so not only are we opening, but we're going to test everyone for antibodies, because surely this is all so overblown that most of us have already contracted the virus and is now immune/s. You know what we're finding? Less than 1% of the general population in Pima county, AZ has the antibodies. You know what the university is not doing, due to an agreement made with Banner, who bought the hospital that our med school uses - doing our own RT-PCR test (my lab is a CLIA facility with it's an FDA approved RT test). Which is what we need to be doing. I. Can't. Stand. It.
We had an all hands Zoom town hall maybe the day after the university shut down. It was presented that if we went all online for 2020-2021 school year, the university would loose 350M. I had no idea how much money the university was depending on from foreign students paying full tuition, which we're not going to get back this year, anyway.
So anyway, we're opening. One of the members of the "re-opening committee" is in an office in my cube space, and he likes to take open door conference calls. The focus is all on testing testing testing students (which we haven't been cleared by Banner's lawyers to do so). I have yet to hear a thing about what to do about the faculty and staff, who just by virtue of being older, are higher risk. My lab was closed for maybe a week, then we were told that we were essential, so we came back. No additional safety protections were offered in our work space, no masks required, custodial staff and outside contractors were wandering around our workspaces unmasked. We as a lab came up with our own policies, as the university said it was up to each department to implement policy. This has changed, thankfully, but only the last few weeks. Again, I don't know if it's the anti-mask gov Ducey's influence, but for the fall semester, it's "up to each professor" to decide if masks should be worn in each classroom.
I'm sorry for the rambling, I feel like I have a lot to say about this, but I kind of just made it about my workspace. Uh, university opening is complicated.
posted by lizjohn at 1:11 PM on June 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
We had an all hands Zoom town hall maybe the day after the university shut down. It was presented that if we went all online for 2020-2021 school year, the university would loose 350M. I had no idea how much money the university was depending on from foreign students paying full tuition, which we're not going to get back this year, anyway.
So anyway, we're opening. One of the members of the "re-opening committee" is in an office in my cube space, and he likes to take open door conference calls. The focus is all on testing testing testing students (which we haven't been cleared by Banner's lawyers to do so). I have yet to hear a thing about what to do about the faculty and staff, who just by virtue of being older, are higher risk. My lab was closed for maybe a week, then we were told that we were essential, so we came back. No additional safety protections were offered in our work space, no masks required, custodial staff and outside contractors were wandering around our workspaces unmasked. We as a lab came up with our own policies, as the university said it was up to each department to implement policy. This has changed, thankfully, but only the last few weeks. Again, I don't know if it's the anti-mask gov Ducey's influence, but for the fall semester, it's "up to each professor" to decide if masks should be worn in each classroom.
I'm sorry for the rambling, I feel like I have a lot to say about this, but I kind of just made it about my workspace. Uh, university opening is complicated.
posted by lizjohn at 1:11 PM on June 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
We can't re-work the US university system unless and until people can get jobs or climb the employment ladder without advanced degrees. My daughter wants to work in conservation. She's been working toward that goal since she was 12. She can only get so far with a high school diploma, and she wants to go farther than that hard line, so she has to get at least a bachelor's degree (in biology, zoology, ecology, or another related field). Without the BS, she'd be stuck. You'd think that experience would count, especially for conservation/animal husbandry, but no. Gotta have that degree.
So, back to university she'll go in the fall, online or in person or whatever mix her university ends up offering. I'm actually glad she and her friends decided to get an apartment off campus; I'd hate for her to be in a dorm next school year. At least this way they can better control their exposure.
posted by cooker girl at 1:14 PM on June 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
So, back to university she'll go in the fall, online or in person or whatever mix her university ends up offering. I'm actually glad she and her friends decided to get an apartment off campus; I'd hate for her to be in a dorm next school year. At least this way they can better control their exposure.
posted by cooker girl at 1:14 PM on June 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
I have a kid ostensibly starting this fall. As shitty as most online learning is, I'd expect a 40% tuition discount, and waiving all campus student fees: student center, sports, bands and comics, gyms and pools, libraries, uni wifi, physical plant expenses...
Lol. They’re more likely going to charge you a 40% premium for the honor of going online.
posted by jmauro at 1:31 PM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
Lol. They’re more likely going to charge you a 40% premium for the honor of going online.
posted by jmauro at 1:31 PM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
none of these discussions spend much time on the possibility that the Covid situation might be better, not worse, as we get into fall
Well less planning is needed for that, right? In the best case scenario where things are better, students just go to school.
I think its extremely unlikely, though. Cases are going up. All the stay-at-home/distancing/etc helped, but everyone has given up on that, so its going to get much worse before it gets better. Even here in California where we initially took it seriously, we've given up (very few wearing masks anymore, everything is reopening despite cases going up, etc). [The governor today tried to defend all this, but the TLDR was 'people don't want to do it anymore]. And even things that are easy and would allow people to go out more (wearing masks) are not happening.
I would love it if things were better in the fall, but it seems extremely unlikely.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:36 PM on June 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
Well less planning is needed for that, right? In the best case scenario where things are better, students just go to school.
I think its extremely unlikely, though. Cases are going up. All the stay-at-home/distancing/etc helped, but everyone has given up on that, so its going to get much worse before it gets better. Even here in California where we initially took it seriously, we've given up (very few wearing masks anymore, everything is reopening despite cases going up, etc). [The governor today tried to defend all this, but the TLDR was 'people don't want to do it anymore]. And even things that are easy and would allow people to go out more (wearing masks) are not happening.
I would love it if things were better in the fall, but it seems extremely unlikely.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:36 PM on June 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
Universities are so broke they can't give discounts. Or have much in the way of staff any more now, I've been told.
I wouldn't bother with a "gap year," since as others have pointed out, there is literally nothing your kid can do otherwise (probably can't get a job, definitely can't go anywhere) except play video games, and you might as well do some form of school. Also, what if this isn't over with in a year and goes on for 2 years or forever (thanks, everyone writing that there may never be a vaccine)? Hell, you might as well do online school even if it's not great. If I had a kid I'd say to do community college online, though obviously that's overloaded now too.
How do you teach automotive repair remotely?
I'm told my cousin was learning how to do surgery in vet school remotely/electronically, so if they can do that....
As someone who doesn't leave her apartment, it's pretty safe if you're living alone and not leaving. Dorms, on the other hand, have tons of traffic. The school I went to had apartment-style dorm areas minus kitchens so that would be better, but dorm dining commons....were pretty buffet from what I recall.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:40 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't bother with a "gap year," since as others have pointed out, there is literally nothing your kid can do otherwise (probably can't get a job, definitely can't go anywhere) except play video games, and you might as well do some form of school. Also, what if this isn't over with in a year and goes on for 2 years or forever (thanks, everyone writing that there may never be a vaccine)? Hell, you might as well do online school even if it's not great. If I had a kid I'd say to do community college online, though obviously that's overloaded now too.
How do you teach automotive repair remotely?
I'm told my cousin was learning how to do surgery in vet school remotely/electronically, so if they can do that....
As someone who doesn't leave her apartment, it's pretty safe if you're living alone and not leaving. Dorms, on the other hand, have tons of traffic. The school I went to had apartment-style dorm areas minus kitchens so that would be better, but dorm dining commons....were pretty buffet from what I recall.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:40 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm fulltime faculty. Summer is the time we should be developing courses.
Maybe it's different in the US but summer here in the UK is when we catch up on the research we're contracted for, especially important this year following issues arising from Covid and the nine months preceding that which were a shitfest for anyone with EU funded projects as a result of Brexit. So we're expected to do everything else on our plates plus learn new teaching methods.
posted by biffa at 1:44 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
Maybe it's different in the US but summer here in the UK is when we catch up on the research we're contracted for, especially important this year following issues arising from Covid and the nine months preceding that which were a shitfest for anyone with EU funded projects as a result of Brexit. So we're expected to do everything else on our plates plus learn new teaching methods.
posted by biffa at 1:44 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
They’re more likely going to charge you a 40% premium for the honor of going online.
I suspect the costs of networking infrastructure and IT staff will be proffered to split the difference and keep tuition about the same.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:44 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
I suspect the costs of networking infrastructure and IT staff will be proffered to split the difference and keep tuition about the same.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:44 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Honestly, the best approach I saw in my CompSci degree was a 'flipped classroom' approach, before that term was popular. All the lectures were pre-recorded, in perhaps the world's worst video playback system (this is before the era of youtube and twitch, or let alone html5 video). The classroom time was split into three things: 10 minute quizzes at the start of class, 5 minute review of the quiz in Socratic style, and then either a classroom exercise, or team project work time, with the professor and TA wandering and available for random questions / debugging.
If I'm trying to translate that approach to distance learning, the lectures are the least affected by the transition. Whats likely to be missing from the distance learning approach is the social pressure stemming from 'Nathan, please explain why first fit is used in memory allocation algorithms.' I wouldn't be surprised if motivation is a major driver of distance education failures.
posted by pwnguin at 1:45 PM on June 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
If I'm trying to translate that approach to distance learning, the lectures are the least affected by the transition. Whats likely to be missing from the distance learning approach is the social pressure stemming from 'Nathan, please explain why first fit is used in memory allocation algorithms.' I wouldn't be surprised if motivation is a major driver of distance education failures.
posted by pwnguin at 1:45 PM on June 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
I am trying to figure out what kind of mask is least uncomfortable to wear, most effective, and most importantly least likely to fall off while speaking frequently and moving around a room, because this is going to be necessary for me in the fall. I am not happy about it, to put it lightly.
Let's just remember that the reason all of us have to do shit like research which masks actually work and then buy those masks for ourselves is that the Federal response has completely failed under Trump.
In a functional government we would have tested mask standards by now and they would be free for all essential workers. Instead we have people wearing loose bandannas for fashion since the local bodega requires a "mask".
posted by benzenedream at 1:48 PM on June 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
Let's just remember that the reason all of us have to do shit like research which masks actually work and then buy those masks for ourselves is that the Federal response has completely failed under Trump.
In a functional government we would have tested mask standards by now and they would be free for all essential workers. Instead we have people wearing loose bandannas for fashion since the local bodega requires a "mask".
posted by benzenedream at 1:48 PM on June 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
Yeah, Zoom and MS Teams and Cisco WebEx and Amazon Chime licenses are not cheap, and everyone is having to buy tons of them -- to say nothing of VPN licenses & hardware for everyone WFH.
Higher ed IT expenses are going to skyrocket this year just to cover what was built last spring. Even with all the projects that got dropped on the floor to free up techs to set up laptops and web cams and cover help desk shifts and everything else, costs will be well over budget.
And if there are crazy bills for bandwidth overages, that'll be a Sophie's Choice for sure. :7(
posted by wenestvedt at 1:48 PM on June 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
Higher ed IT expenses are going to skyrocket this year just to cover what was built last spring. Even with all the projects that got dropped on the floor to free up techs to set up laptops and web cams and cover help desk shifts and everything else, costs will be well over budget.
And if there are crazy bills for bandwidth overages, that'll be a Sophie's Choice for sure. :7(
posted by wenestvedt at 1:48 PM on June 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm fulltime faculty. Summer is the time we should be developing courses.
Maybe it's different in the US but summer here in the UK is when we catch up on the research we're contracted for, especially
It may be time to recognize that the world's best researchers are not automatically the world's best teachers, and that having 500 of professors produce variations on the same course without collaboration, review, or comparison is ineffective.
posted by pwnguin at 1:50 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
Maybe it's different in the US but summer here in the UK is when we catch up on the research we're contracted for, especially
It may be time to recognize that the world's best researchers are not automatically the world's best teachers, and that having 500 of professors produce variations on the same course without collaboration, review, or comparison is ineffective.
posted by pwnguin at 1:50 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
For those calling for steep discounts because of online teaching, online teaching does not cost any less to deliver. It is certainly more strain on the faculty, even the ones who were prepared and do it well. There is a reason why online classes tend to be smaller under normal circumstances. But calls for steep discounts, along with the loss of fees that support things like the recreation center, athletics, student organizations, etc. has a big part in the determination of colleges and universities to reopen their campuses.Whether that’s a good idea or a bad idea we are going to find out.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:54 PM on June 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:54 PM on June 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
The idea of someone suing and winning because face to face lectures were replaced by online ones — I find that frightening. I mean... I’m employed by one of those places so I guess I’m hardly impartial. But I’m not a teacher and (assuming anywhere is hiring) I don’t have to work at a university. I could find employment in another sector. I’m there instead because the thing universities do matters to me. And from that perspective I am terrified of those lawsuits because I do see the sense, and what if they win? Do we really want to destroy American higher education, to let its loss to COVID be another example of the truism “whatever Trump touches dies”? Yes, everything is different now, mostly worse, but the same is true of the rent landlords are not getting and the work we’re not getting done and we all just have to deal. We’re in a pandemic! How ghastly it is to try to win at each other’s expense!
(Incidentally that’s how I feel about campuses reopening too soon, too. I worry that such decisions amount to the reverse: campuses ensuring their financial health at the expense of the bodies of the community members who will die.)
An educational leader of my acquaintance (not my employer) made some offhand comment about wishing he could offer reduced tuition, knowing that the services he’s able to offer are worse despite being more expensive to produce, and I wanted to reach very politely through the screen and clap my hand over his mouth. Do not even hint at this thing, you cannot do this thing, do not encourage your people to think of themselves as customers in this way. Not unless your school has some extremely rich uncle hidden in a crypt somewhere. Preserve the institution, consistent with what you have to do to preserve its people too. Without it, where do they go?
posted by eirias at 2:23 PM on June 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
(Incidentally that’s how I feel about campuses reopening too soon, too. I worry that such decisions amount to the reverse: campuses ensuring their financial health at the expense of the bodies of the community members who will die.)
An educational leader of my acquaintance (not my employer) made some offhand comment about wishing he could offer reduced tuition, knowing that the services he’s able to offer are worse despite being more expensive to produce, and I wanted to reach very politely through the screen and clap my hand over his mouth. Do not even hint at this thing, you cannot do this thing, do not encourage your people to think of themselves as customers in this way. Not unless your school has some extremely rich uncle hidden in a crypt somewhere. Preserve the institution, consistent with what you have to do to preserve its people too. Without it, where do they go?
posted by eirias at 2:23 PM on June 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
I'm fulltime faculty. Summer is the time we should be developing courses.
Maybe it's different in the US but summer here in the UK is when we catch up on the research we're contracted for, especially important this year following issues arising from Covid and the nine months preceding that which were a shitfest for anyone with EU funded projects as a result of Brexit. So we're expected to do everything else on our plates plus learn new teaching methods.
oh no, I agree. this is part of the 120% workload!! summer for me & research is normally sacred.
I had to close my lab this summer because it's in nyc....and I thus have more "time" to develop courses, while my research lab atrophies to death :<
posted by lalochezia at 2:38 PM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
I admit online classes were rough for spring semester but there's no real option other than to enroll for Fall 2020 despite being unsure if there will be in-person classes or not. My main problem is the lack of actual space for learning and the constant distractions for distance learning.
I know some classes have Zoom sessions but I find it difficult to focus than and set times were a pain if I was busy at the moment. Also, I didn't realize how much better it was to be on campus for most of the day vs just sitting in my small noisy room.
posted by chrono_rabbit at 2:58 PM on June 16, 2020
I know some classes have Zoom sessions but I find it difficult to focus than and set times were a pain if I was busy at the moment. Also, I didn't realize how much better it was to be on campus for most of the day vs just sitting in my small noisy room.
posted by chrono_rabbit at 2:58 PM on June 16, 2020
My alma mater just officially announced they are going hybrid. Sigh.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:06 PM on June 16, 2020
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:06 PM on June 16, 2020
The private equity firm that bought Canvas's parent company laid off a huge portion of their staff earlier this year
TIL! I completely missed this somehow.
posted by aspersioncast at 3:09 PM on June 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
TIL! I completely missed this somehow.
posted by aspersioncast at 3:09 PM on June 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
I vacillate between (a) wanting to develop a superb online lecture experience for my students this fall, and (b) wanting to give myself permission to not deliver a top-tier lecture for one semester because this is a once-in-a-century pandemic and concomitant social upheaval that the whole world is struggling through together.
I’m working my ass off to pull together as good a course set as possible, but know it’s not going to be ideal. And, ultimately, my students and I have to be okay with that, because there’s not much of an alternative.
posted by darkstar at 3:15 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
I’m working my ass off to pull together as good a course set as possible, but know it’s not going to be ideal. And, ultimately, my students and I have to be okay with that, because there’s not much of an alternative.
posted by darkstar at 3:15 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
"Ideal" is out the damn window with great force this year.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:18 PM on June 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:18 PM on June 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
Luckily the end of the fiscal year is already seeing layoffs of support staff, so already overworked faculty will have even less support.
posted by aspersioncast at 3:20 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 3:20 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
When, whether and how to start is a conundrum.
Indeed. As with businesses, sports, theatre, and all the rest, no one really knows when the best time to reopen everything. Start too soon, a sharp new spike in casss shouts up, leading to entirely avoidable deaths. Start too late, and the economy slumps into a recession.
So really, it’s a question of whether you think our political and economic leaders have a better chance of reviving the economy or of raising the dead.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:24 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Indeed. As with businesses, sports, theatre, and all the rest, no one really knows when the best time to reopen everything. Start too soon, a sharp new spike in casss shouts up, leading to entirely avoidable deaths. Start too late, and the economy slumps into a recession.
So really, it’s a question of whether you think our political and economic leaders have a better chance of reviving the economy or of raising the dead.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:24 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
So really, it’s a question of whether you think our political and economic leaders have a better chance of reviving the economy or of raising the dead.
Leaders?
This is America: you’re on your own
posted by mr_roboto at 3:26 PM on June 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
Leaders?
This is America: you’re on your own
posted by mr_roboto at 3:26 PM on June 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
For those calling for steep discounts because of online teaching, online teaching does not cost any less to deliver
The problem with this is that for years students have argued that it's ridiculous to pay their fees for (say) 4 hrs of contact time per week and it works out to £x00 per hr and how is that justified? And the universities respond that they also get beautiful campuses, buildings, labs, libraries, sports centres, etc for their fees. If you get taught online the universities now want the full whack but all you do get is the contact time and in a way that is less immediate and pretty alien, especially for those coming into their first year. Fees look pretty steep from that perspective.
posted by biffa at 3:43 PM on June 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
The problem with this is that for years students have argued that it's ridiculous to pay their fees for (say) 4 hrs of contact time per week and it works out to £x00 per hr and how is that justified? And the universities respond that they also get beautiful campuses, buildings, labs, libraries, sports centres, etc for their fees. If you get taught online the universities now want the full whack but all you do get is the contact time and in a way that is less immediate and pretty alien, especially for those coming into their first year. Fees look pretty steep from that perspective.
posted by biffa at 3:43 PM on June 16, 2020 [10 favorites]
It's annoying because paying their fees for that 4 hours of contact time also includes all the lesson planning, adapting course materials, grading assignments, designing assignments and exams, making copies, figuring out how and when to schedule material, creating a narrative of the course, gauging whether it's too difficult or too easy....
but never has THAT been emphasized, either.
posted by sciatrix at 3:46 PM on June 16, 2020 [19 favorites]
but never has THAT been emphasized, either.
posted by sciatrix at 3:46 PM on June 16, 2020 [19 favorites]
and waiving all campus student fees: student center, sports, bands and comics, gyms and pools, libraries, uni wifi, physical plant expenses...
...all of which will continue to exist, require staffing even if campus is online, and have to be maintained?
As someone else said above: online teaching isn't inexpensive at all. The campus has to be able to support the server load, train faculty who don't know how to make full use of the CMS, and considerably expand their IT staff. A surprising number of faculty offices do not actually have computers equipped for video, depending on the campus computer refresh cycle, so you need webcams, microphones, and in some cases entirely new machines. Oh, and then multiple someones have to be on call to repair all the machines (let's not get into the issues with faculty who aren't allowed on campus and have to supply their own equipment and WiFi). We were having all sorts of trouble with our CMS (material not uploading, dragging video, and, oh yes, a total outage of the electronic grading system right before grades were due), which just wasn't installed and supported with the intent of several hundred faculty using it to teach online simultaneously.
Moreover, on my own campus, lead time to register and design a new online course is normally one year; here, we're translating courses into 100% asynchronous delivery in the space of a couple of months.
I'm in SUNY, so we're at the governor's mercy when it comes to our overall instructional delivery method. Even if you meet F2F, there are suddenly all sorts of things that have to be discouraged: discussion, almost certainly (have everyone text and project the responses up on the whiteboard?); workshopping and any other form of group work (I suppose they can all stare at their computers while they're in the same room...); even handing things out. I normally walk about the room while students are doing group exercises and peer review, and that wouldn't wash, either--it would be like I was there and not-there.
posted by thomas j wise at 4:12 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
...all of which will continue to exist, require staffing even if campus is online, and have to be maintained?
As someone else said above: online teaching isn't inexpensive at all. The campus has to be able to support the server load, train faculty who don't know how to make full use of the CMS, and considerably expand their IT staff. A surprising number of faculty offices do not actually have computers equipped for video, depending on the campus computer refresh cycle, so you need webcams, microphones, and in some cases entirely new machines. Oh, and then multiple someones have to be on call to repair all the machines (let's not get into the issues with faculty who aren't allowed on campus and have to supply their own equipment and WiFi). We were having all sorts of trouble with our CMS (material not uploading, dragging video, and, oh yes, a total outage of the electronic grading system right before grades were due), which just wasn't installed and supported with the intent of several hundred faculty using it to teach online simultaneously.
Moreover, on my own campus, lead time to register and design a new online course is normally one year; here, we're translating courses into 100% asynchronous delivery in the space of a couple of months.
I'm in SUNY, so we're at the governor's mercy when it comes to our overall instructional delivery method. Even if you meet F2F, there are suddenly all sorts of things that have to be discouraged: discussion, almost certainly (have everyone text and project the responses up on the whiteboard?); workshopping and any other form of group work (I suppose they can all stare at their computers while they're in the same room...); even handing things out. I normally walk about the room while students are doing group exercises and peer review, and that wouldn't wash, either--it would be like I was there and not-there.
posted by thomas j wise at 4:12 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
Not to mention all of the support staff that make all of the lesson planning, adaptation, grading, copying and so on possible. And that connects students to the resources the campus offers -- and those connections are maybe even more important now (want to make sure every student has a laptop that can works for remote learning? It's not just the cost of the laptops; somebody has to distribute, perform tech support, make sure the laptops aren't being used for something horrible; if they're collected later, someone has to clean them for redistribution; someone has to deal with the students who lose theirs or spill something on them or drop them or...).
Blugh. Anyhow, online learning *can* be great, but a summer to prepare when adjunct faculty are teaching and research faculty are trying to perform research in crazy new circumstances and nobody can meet in person-- is nowhere near enough. Officially my university knows this, because I (randomly and non-covid related) was not teaching this past semester-- because I had teaching relief due to online course development! Online course development that is trying to replace a course that is flipped-classroom on ground, so there's a bunch of extra stuff we're trying to do to provide some of the classroom interactivity we usually have with something online. So I am one of the few people at my university who knows what they're doing in the fall, because I'm teaching an online course that was always going to be online.
But because of that I know exactly how much prep it takes on the part of me, the staff supporting me, and the students (who need to make sure they have the required technology and know how to use it). One eight-week summer when you've got another fulltime or more job isn't enough.
(Also, to the UofA commenter above-- you could be ASU, who only recently decided having any plan at all is a good idea.. at least UofA has *some* sort of testing plan. They need to change it to active virus instead of antibody, but having some system setup is better than what we're getting.)
(Also also, major ugh on canvas having been bought by vulture capitalists. This is why we can't have nice things!)
posted by nat at 4:18 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
Blugh. Anyhow, online learning *can* be great, but a summer to prepare when adjunct faculty are teaching and research faculty are trying to perform research in crazy new circumstances and nobody can meet in person-- is nowhere near enough. Officially my university knows this, because I (randomly and non-covid related) was not teaching this past semester-- because I had teaching relief due to online course development! Online course development that is trying to replace a course that is flipped-classroom on ground, so there's a bunch of extra stuff we're trying to do to provide some of the classroom interactivity we usually have with something online. So I am one of the few people at my university who knows what they're doing in the fall, because I'm teaching an online course that was always going to be online.
But because of that I know exactly how much prep it takes on the part of me, the staff supporting me, and the students (who need to make sure they have the required technology and know how to use it). One eight-week summer when you've got another fulltime or more job isn't enough.
(Also, to the UofA commenter above-- you could be ASU, who only recently decided having any plan at all is a good idea.. at least UofA has *some* sort of testing plan. They need to change it to active virus instead of antibody, but having some system setup is better than what we're getting.)
(Also also, major ugh on canvas having been bought by vulture capitalists. This is why we can't have nice things!)
posted by nat at 4:18 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
I'm also here to chime in on I'd expect a 40% tuition discount - I'm on staff at a small public university, and I seem to remember that 80% of our operating budget (the one that tuition pays for) goes to salary and benefits. Weirdly, we don't need fewer people to do online education, although with budget cuts on the horizon (aka in 2 weeks) we're going to somehow have to do it with fewer people anyway!
From where I'm seeing, there's a range of opinions internally that range all the way from "next year should be online" to "I don't know why everyone is freaking out" -- as with any large group of people. Plus there's a real panic and looking around at competitor colleges trying to figure out what is best going to placate some combination of adult students, parents of younger students, and legislators.
posted by epersonae at 4:30 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
From where I'm seeing, there's a range of opinions internally that range all the way from "next year should be online" to "I don't know why everyone is freaking out" -- as with any large group of people. Plus there's a real panic and looking around at competitor colleges trying to figure out what is best going to placate some combination of adult students, parents of younger students, and legislators.
posted by epersonae at 4:30 PM on June 16, 2020 [8 favorites]
And the universities respond that they also get beautiful campuses, buildings, labs, libraries, sports centres, etc for their fees.
Students and their parents demanded that, remember. The same parents who didn’t want to pay taxes, so, for state schools, the state portion is 8%? 5%? You voted for this.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:44 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
Students and their parents demanded that, remember. The same parents who didn’t want to pay taxes, so, for state schools, the state portion is 8%? 5%? You voted for this.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:44 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
I cannot second doctornemo's comment enough. I also work in this space and it has been extremely frustrating to see people equate the "record lectures and put them online" emergency response with anything like good online teaching practice.
(I admit to being a bit radical on this front: in many subject areas I'm happy for lectures to be ditched entirely in favour of smaller collaborative online project work, or learning discussions, or well-moderated peer-generated content mastery, or collective blogging, or any number of compelling alternatives to traditional instruction models.)
For every student who favours face-to-face teaching I have heard from other students who prefer online. Students who are working part- or full-time; students who have childcare / eldercare responsibilities; students with a disability who have been crying out for these alternative modes for years; students for whom English is not a first language who appreciate the time and flexibility to reread, rehearse, and practice their interactions...
Putting all that aside, the comparison of f2f and online isn't even the right question. I've seen amazing teaching happen in both, but the teacher's experience and expertise in teaching always seems to count for more than the choice of mode. And what we've seen this year is a bunch of teachers who have no experience or expertise in this area being thrust unwillingly into it. When that happens, of course everyone's first instinct is to try to replicate what is familiar... even when decades of research and practice have established what a bad idea that is.
posted by Paragon at 5:01 PM on June 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
(I admit to being a bit radical on this front: in many subject areas I'm happy for lectures to be ditched entirely in favour of smaller collaborative online project work, or learning discussions, or well-moderated peer-generated content mastery, or collective blogging, or any number of compelling alternatives to traditional instruction models.)
For every student who favours face-to-face teaching I have heard from other students who prefer online. Students who are working part- or full-time; students who have childcare / eldercare responsibilities; students with a disability who have been crying out for these alternative modes for years; students for whom English is not a first language who appreciate the time and flexibility to reread, rehearse, and practice their interactions...
Putting all that aside, the comparison of f2f and online isn't even the right question. I've seen amazing teaching happen in both, but the teacher's experience and expertise in teaching always seems to count for more than the choice of mode. And what we've seen this year is a bunch of teachers who have no experience or expertise in this area being thrust unwillingly into it. When that happens, of course everyone's first instinct is to try to replicate what is familiar... even when decades of research and practice have established what a bad idea that is.
posted by Paragon at 5:01 PM on June 16, 2020 [17 favorites]
For those calling for steep discounts because of online teaching, online teaching does not cost any less to deliver.
I wouldn't be calling for a tuition discount, but the college nearest me has close to $2,500 in miscellaneous surcharges for things like athletic tickets, student union access, a "building fee", etc.
If I were a student, I'd sure be expecting not to pay a "Campus Activities Fee" for a campus that wasn't open.
posted by madajb at 5:08 PM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't be calling for a tuition discount, but the college nearest me has close to $2,500 in miscellaneous surcharges for things like athletic tickets, student union access, a "building fee", etc.
If I were a student, I'd sure be expecting not to pay a "Campus Activities Fee" for a campus that wasn't open.
posted by madajb at 5:08 PM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
I knocked myself out to provide what I could for my students when we went online, and luckily I already had their cell phone numbers and they had mine. Everyone knew what they were supposed to do and luckily I had already made it clear they could submit early drafts for critique and resubmission. But my courses are on-site practicums that take place in an urban school district. There was no way what we were doing with video could substitute for that. A couple of my undergrads got very ill with this disease already, though they managed to finish the term.
My university is planning to have face to face classes in the fall and the school district is planning to hold some kind of classes somehow, so I suppose my practicum will meet.
But I won’t be there. I’m 68 and I have asthma, my husband is 73 with compromised lung function, I’m an at-will adjunct making a pittance, I never know how many sections I’ll be teaching until just before school starts, and this just isn’t tenable.
People talking about a tuition discount should be aware just how little the teachers are making already. Universities the way they’re run right now aren’t financially sustainable.
posted by Peach at 5:15 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
My university is planning to have face to face classes in the fall and the school district is planning to hold some kind of classes somehow, so I suppose my practicum will meet.
But I won’t be there. I’m 68 and I have asthma, my husband is 73 with compromised lung function, I’m an at-will adjunct making a pittance, I never know how many sections I’ll be teaching until just before school starts, and this just isn’t tenable.
People talking about a tuition discount should be aware just how little the teachers are making already. Universities the way they’re run right now aren’t financially sustainable.
posted by Peach at 5:15 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
I'm an adjunct in Australia. We switched fully online in the middle of the first semester and everyone involved on hourly rates was paid extra for the work - once they worked out how much time that was. It was the right thing to do but I know it wasn't how other universities did it, and it contributed to the almost total lack of adjuncts for the rest of the year. The budget got cut, and die to no more travel/repeat lectures for tenured staff, more of their hours were allocated to classes the adjuncts would usually be teaching.
My classes were rated highly, even with the disruption, and how I managed my small teaching team was praised by students. Some smaller issues but everyone got through. I got called to justify why so many of my students did well - pointing out that I am a giant nerd so the admin and infrastructure was easy for me, I've spent time researching and discussing online teaching with experts, and that me and my teaching staff went above and beyond on personal support and guidance seemed to let me escape any consequences. I didn't point out that FOUR of my students left domestic violence situations during or immediately before the semester. Or that half of them lost their jobs and the other half were working sixty hour weeks. Or that ten of them were recalled to countries with even less healthcare and having to try participate on a different time zone. That most of them returned to lower socio-economic homes with multiple siblings and limited internet. My uni did what they could with bursaries and loans for students but it doesn't address the enormous gaps they have to overcome structurally.
I was teaching sociology, so my students had ways of thinking about and understanding the infrastructure adding to the inequality. It helped them overcome the tendency to self-blame.
This semester I am one of the lucky few with adjunct work - fully online again, new course and material, second time it is being taught. I have very little existing infrastructure to use because last year was plagued by interpersonal politicking from what I gather. I've set up the admin elements but I'm facing having to work within the structure of f2f but online. I'm having to structure online teaching with the expectations of f2f in terms of timing (weekly three hour workshop blocks, due dates etc) when that doesn't work online. The timetable dictated by f2f doesn't work for online in a lot of ways.
I'm also using Blackboard - ex-librarian so I'm used to working around products as much as with them - but I'm also teaching film. The dearth of online group watching support is killing me for prep. Finding the film is hard, working out how to get a group to watch them online is a pain, not breaking the law to do so, dealing with everything from 3G to fibre internet, and then teaching it adequately? Having to modify the course for what is available vs what is the best film for the week?
I start teaching again in about three weeks. Yesterday I was hit by the enormous idiocy and fragility of the system, my own inadequacies, the position my students are in, and the fact I still don't have a full time bloody job out of all this because I'm also supposed to be writing three books.
(That's not even going into the fact I had to move and get everything set up because as great as the free rent was, two adults working FT from a two bedroom flat and a kid homeschooling was untenable and thank God I was able to but it makes the job aspect even more important)
posted by geek anachronism at 5:16 PM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
My classes were rated highly, even with the disruption, and how I managed my small teaching team was praised by students. Some smaller issues but everyone got through. I got called to justify why so many of my students did well - pointing out that I am a giant nerd so the admin and infrastructure was easy for me, I've spent time researching and discussing online teaching with experts, and that me and my teaching staff went above and beyond on personal support and guidance seemed to let me escape any consequences. I didn't point out that FOUR of my students left domestic violence situations during or immediately before the semester. Or that half of them lost their jobs and the other half were working sixty hour weeks. Or that ten of them were recalled to countries with even less healthcare and having to try participate on a different time zone. That most of them returned to lower socio-economic homes with multiple siblings and limited internet. My uni did what they could with bursaries and loans for students but it doesn't address the enormous gaps they have to overcome structurally.
I was teaching sociology, so my students had ways of thinking about and understanding the infrastructure adding to the inequality. It helped them overcome the tendency to self-blame.
This semester I am one of the lucky few with adjunct work - fully online again, new course and material, second time it is being taught. I have very little existing infrastructure to use because last year was plagued by interpersonal politicking from what I gather. I've set up the admin elements but I'm facing having to work within the structure of f2f but online. I'm having to structure online teaching with the expectations of f2f in terms of timing (weekly three hour workshop blocks, due dates etc) when that doesn't work online. The timetable dictated by f2f doesn't work for online in a lot of ways.
I'm also using Blackboard - ex-librarian so I'm used to working around products as much as with them - but I'm also teaching film. The dearth of online group watching support is killing me for prep. Finding the film is hard, working out how to get a group to watch them online is a pain, not breaking the law to do so, dealing with everything from 3G to fibre internet, and then teaching it adequately? Having to modify the course for what is available vs what is the best film for the week?
I start teaching again in about three weeks. Yesterday I was hit by the enormous idiocy and fragility of the system, my own inadequacies, the position my students are in, and the fact I still don't have a full time bloody job out of all this because I'm also supposed to be writing three books.
(That's not even going into the fact I had to move and get everything set up because as great as the free rent was, two adults working FT from a two bedroom flat and a kid homeschooling was untenable and thank God I was able to but it makes the job aspect even more important)
posted by geek anachronism at 5:16 PM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
Students and their parents demanded that, remember. The same parents who didn’t want to pay taxes, so, for state schools, the state portion is 8%? 5%? You voted for this.
I feel like those arguments ("you voted for this") are unfair and often incorrect. Like, in the limit, the last trans resident of newly incorporated TERFtown probably didn’t vote to have their rights revoked, but it could still happen, because that’s how majorities work.
posted by eirias at 5:20 PM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
I feel like those arguments ("you voted for this") are unfair and often incorrect. Like, in the limit, the last trans resident of newly incorporated TERFtown probably didn’t vote to have their rights revoked, but it could still happen, because that’s how majorities work.
posted by eirias at 5:20 PM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
Our campus will be open in the fall. Students will be in the dorms, and we are encouraged to have as many face to face classes as we can (possibly required to do so). I am frightened, and having problematic recurring thoughts like "I wonder if I will get tenure if I'm the only person in the department left alive by then."
posted by pemberkins at 5:26 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by pemberkins at 5:26 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
I feel like those arguments ("you voted for this") are unfair and often incorrect.
Just because they are not fair for the minority does not mean that they are unfair for the majority. And the majority should not be able to f hide behind the minority.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:34 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Just because they are not fair for the minority does not mean that they are unfair for the majority. And the majority should not be able to f hide behind the minority.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:34 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
> I have a kid ostensibly starting this fall. As shitty as most online learning is, I'd expect a 40% tuition discount, and waiving all campus student fees: student center, sports, bands and comics, gyms and pools, libraries, uni wifi, physical plant expenses...
>>Lol. They’re more likely going to charge you a 40% premium for the honor of going online.
You joke, and yet...
posted by jeremias at 5:48 PM on June 16, 2020
>>Lol. They’re more likely going to charge you a 40% premium for the honor of going online.
You joke, and yet...
posted by jeremias at 5:48 PM on June 16, 2020
Students and their parents demanded that, remember. The same parents who didn’t want to pay taxes, so, for state schools, the state portion is 8%? 5%? You voted for this.
Slightly OT, but I would loooove if all of this resulted in a critical re-evaluation of how much taxes are actually paid, and how they are distributed. Shelter-In-Place seems to really be exposing structural flaws that were previously suffered probably only by the relatively invisible.
posted by rhizome at 6:25 PM on June 16, 2020
Slightly OT, but I would loooove if all of this resulted in a critical re-evaluation of how much taxes are actually paid, and how they are distributed. Shelter-In-Place seems to really be exposing structural flaws that were previously suffered probably only by the relatively invisible.
posted by rhizome at 6:25 PM on June 16, 2020
Leaders?
This is America: you’re on your own
I was being mildly ironic; in any event, I am not American.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:44 PM on June 16, 2020
This is America: you’re on your own
I was being mildly ironic; in any event, I am not American.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:44 PM on June 16, 2020
How is there not a decent FOSS educational CMS?
I see Moodle exists, but I've never encountered it in the wild. Looks like it does more or less the same stuff Blackboard does.
posted by Sockdown at 7:03 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
I see Moodle exists, but I've never encountered it in the wild. Looks like it does more or less the same stuff Blackboard does.
posted by Sockdown at 7:03 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Moodle is not very popular in the US, but internationally it's huge (more users and institutions worldwide than Blackboard, I believe). Canvas has been increasing its market share a lot, but we'll see if that lasts given its recent change of management and - probably - strategic direction.
posted by Paragon at 7:09 PM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Paragon at 7:09 PM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
I was taking a cabinet building class at the local community college when everybody got kicked out of the shop and off the campus. The instructor tried, but it's a hands-on course that doesn't translate very well to an online environment. Like almost everyone, he was caught flat footed. I'm still trying to get my partially completed cabinet.
posted by Daddy-O at 7:10 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Daddy-O at 7:10 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
I was pretty skeptical about all of that overblown hype about MOOCs a few years ago. I don't hate MOOCs, I think that they can be very useful learning tools in certain applications, I just hated the moronic thing about them replacing outmoded forms of pedagogy. But the MOOC-world is now here right now, so...
posted by ovvl at 7:10 PM on June 16, 2020
posted by ovvl at 7:10 PM on June 16, 2020
Online for fall semester seems like clearly the right choice. It's less ideal than face-to-face, but the students still are learning a significant percentage of what they would have otherwise, they still get their credentialing degree on time, and they don't waste 1% of their lives sitting around doing nothing. By contrast, planning to teach in person is just compounding the same errors the US and the world has been making since this started: "let's just give it a shot and see what happens."
That strategy has been disastrous from the start and it's time to honor the precautionary principle. Furthermore, there are lots of good reasons to think things could go wrong, from a second wave, to the network diagrams of college students, to disastrous examples like Fort Benning where they tested every incoming person, employed social distancing and masks, and quarantined for two weeks, but evidently missed one or two (because false negatives are inevitable and young people are often asymptomatic) and 142 got it before they caught on. The educational arguments in favor of on-campus education are tiny compared to the health arguments against, at least for the fall.
But the universities are pretty upfront at this point that education is not the issue. The issue is money. The worry that I've been hearing is less about parents demanding discounts (which will just be massaged/ignored), and not even really about tuition at all: the issue is that residential universities without huge endowments make a large percentage of their income from the dorms and food. Administrators are pushing back, passive-aggressively, on faculty who want to teach online at this point, but that's not their deepest line in the sand. The main goal there is to make sure that the mixed "flex" approach seems plausible for long enough that parents and students can't transfer to a lower-tier school; if in the end this becomes 90% online once the semester has started, the administrators are fine with that.
But teaching and learning isn't the issue: the issue is that entirely online would mean near-bankruptcy due to the dorm income disappearing. So the fundamental issue is getting that money even at the cost of significant risks to the students and faculty, not because we need live teaching to deliver the best education (they don't care about that, though they claim otherwise) but because universities need precisely the highest-risk activity to continue for the sake of income -- dorm living.
I understand the economic logic: kill students and faculty, or let the university die. But disingenuously claiming that this is all for the sake of educational quality when it's just brute economic logic, the same logic behind all reopening, feels pretty evil. They aren't trying to be evil or think that they are, they just are, thanks to the basic logic of capitalism. So far, I don't know what to do about it except to try to be one of those faculty who manages to protect their family by mainly teaching online, and somehow tries to help by at least laying bare what the fundamental, bedrock logic is behind "reopening" in the fall: that it's worth a few lives to keep the university afloat.
posted by chortly at 7:18 PM on June 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
That strategy has been disastrous from the start and it's time to honor the precautionary principle. Furthermore, there are lots of good reasons to think things could go wrong, from a second wave, to the network diagrams of college students, to disastrous examples like Fort Benning where they tested every incoming person, employed social distancing and masks, and quarantined for two weeks, but evidently missed one or two (because false negatives are inevitable and young people are often asymptomatic) and 142 got it before they caught on. The educational arguments in favor of on-campus education are tiny compared to the health arguments against, at least for the fall.
But the universities are pretty upfront at this point that education is not the issue. The issue is money. The worry that I've been hearing is less about parents demanding discounts (which will just be massaged/ignored), and not even really about tuition at all: the issue is that residential universities without huge endowments make a large percentage of their income from the dorms and food. Administrators are pushing back, passive-aggressively, on faculty who want to teach online at this point, but that's not their deepest line in the sand. The main goal there is to make sure that the mixed "flex" approach seems plausible for long enough that parents and students can't transfer to a lower-tier school; if in the end this becomes 90% online once the semester has started, the administrators are fine with that.
But teaching and learning isn't the issue: the issue is that entirely online would mean near-bankruptcy due to the dorm income disappearing. So the fundamental issue is getting that money even at the cost of significant risks to the students and faculty, not because we need live teaching to deliver the best education (they don't care about that, though they claim otherwise) but because universities need precisely the highest-risk activity to continue for the sake of income -- dorm living.
I understand the economic logic: kill students and faculty, or let the university die. But disingenuously claiming that this is all for the sake of educational quality when it's just brute economic logic, the same logic behind all reopening, feels pretty evil. They aren't trying to be evil or think that they are, they just are, thanks to the basic logic of capitalism. So far, I don't know what to do about it except to try to be one of those faculty who manages to protect their family by mainly teaching online, and somehow tries to help by at least laying bare what the fundamental, bedrock logic is behind "reopening" in the fall: that it's worth a few lives to keep the university afloat.
posted by chortly at 7:18 PM on June 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
How is there not a decent FOSS educational CMS?
Sakai was intended to fill that niche. I've used it at a few institutions but my current university recently switched away it and the institutions that originally developed it have also switched to other platforms. I'm not familiar enough with the relevant issues to know why we switched and why the founding institutions have also switched; it seemed like an okay system to me as an end user, both as a student and as an instructor.
posted by ElKevbo at 7:21 PM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
Sakai was intended to fill that niche. I've used it at a few institutions but my current university recently switched away it and the institutions that originally developed it have also switched to other platforms. I'm not familiar enough with the relevant issues to know why we switched and why the founding institutions have also switched; it seemed like an okay system to me as an end user, both as a student and as an instructor.
posted by ElKevbo at 7:21 PM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
you voted for that
Yeah, no.
student activity fees
Yep, that's some bullshit.
online teaching does not cost any less to deliver.
Online software engineering, even the collaborative parts, costs a shit ton less. I don't see how you can say the online uni is equivalent or more cost.
They’re more likely going to charge you a 40% premium for the honor of going online.
This, in fact, is the fucked up bullshit story at the local state schools.
posted by j_curiouser at 7:53 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yeah, no.
student activity fees
Yep, that's some bullshit.
online teaching does not cost any less to deliver.
Online software engineering, even the collaborative parts, costs a shit ton less. I don't see how you can say the online uni is equivalent or more cost.
They’re more likely going to charge you a 40% premium for the honor of going online.
This, in fact, is the fucked up bullshit story at the local state schools.
posted by j_curiouser at 7:53 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
The FOSS platforms require a lot of expertise to set up and maintain, where the COTS stuff is a little easier. And there are more consultants who can handle Banner and BlackBoard.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:17 PM on June 16, 2020
posted by wenestvedt at 8:17 PM on June 16, 2020
What drives me crazy is that we keep hearing "the students want to be in person! The students overwhelmingly say that they want to be in person, so we have to reopen!" Meanwhile:
1). The students want to be in person because they want to socialize and party and do a ton of things that will be ostensibly forbidden under social distancing guidelines.
2). The students also overwhelmingly say that they deserve an A because "they worked so hard!" And we're happy completely ignore them when they say things like that.
Like, I know that we are absolutely terrified of the financial hit that's anticipated if we move completely online for the fall (or, likely, the whole school year). But I am so, so resentful that faculty and staff are likely going to be put in danger in order to cater to students and be in-person. (Also, we keep asking for numbers on the cost of all of the extra cleaning and testing to bring students back and no one will share what the budget really looks like).
posted by TwoStride at 8:49 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
1). The students want to be in person because they want to socialize and party and do a ton of things that will be ostensibly forbidden under social distancing guidelines.
2). The students also overwhelmingly say that they deserve an A because "they worked so hard!" And we're happy completely ignore them when they say things like that.
Like, I know that we are absolutely terrified of the financial hit that's anticipated if we move completely online for the fall (or, likely, the whole school year). But I am so, so resentful that faculty and staff are likely going to be put in danger in order to cater to students and be in-person. (Also, we keep asking for numbers on the cost of all of the extra cleaning and testing to bring students back and no one will share what the budget really looks like).
posted by TwoStride at 8:49 PM on June 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
Online software engineering, even the collaborative parts, costs a shit ton less. I don't see how you can say the online uni is equivalent or more cost.
Where do the savings come from in online software engineering and why do you think those would be applicable to a university?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:19 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
Where do the savings come from in online software engineering and why do you think those would be applicable to a university?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:19 PM on June 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
I work at a university in Australia, so a bit outside the experience described in these articles, but facing most of the same issues.
Our university had already committed to online or blended learning a few years back. All new faculty since at least when I started (five years ago) had to take professional development classes in online teaching. All classes are required to include some online components. We have four new campuses that they have built with no lecture theatres at all, so all new teaching at those locations has to at a minimum be flipped classrooms, with online resources replacing lectures, and the only in-person stuff being small discussion sections or labs.
Even so, the experience this semester (which just finished last week) sucked for everyone. We now have a short winter break to plan for the spring semester, and then I have no doubt it is going to suck again.
Students are (reasonably, from their perspective) demanding tuition reductions. At the same time, the university has calculated that a pivot to online teaching and learning takes approximately twice the staffing resources as it would have to continue business as usual. And that teaching an already-converted online class still takes more staffing resources (faculty time + support time) than the off-line equivalent would. So where are these tuition refunds supposed to come from? (Unlike the American situation, we don't charge students a levy for campus resources etc, so there isn't that to refund either. Housing and related facilities, gyms etc are privately run by commercial companies; student clubs etc are funded by the student union which is separate student-run body).
So in the language of the neoliberal university system, somehow we are providing a worse "product" at a loss, while our "customers" want to pay less, and at the same time, the universities are facing a deficit of in some cases 400 million or 500 million dollars (for a single institution) that they somehow have to make up - probably by cutting faculty and maybe entire disciplines. We are so screwed.
posted by lollusc at 9:26 PM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
Our university had already committed to online or blended learning a few years back. All new faculty since at least when I started (five years ago) had to take professional development classes in online teaching. All classes are required to include some online components. We have four new campuses that they have built with no lecture theatres at all, so all new teaching at those locations has to at a minimum be flipped classrooms, with online resources replacing lectures, and the only in-person stuff being small discussion sections or labs.
Even so, the experience this semester (which just finished last week) sucked for everyone. We now have a short winter break to plan for the spring semester, and then I have no doubt it is going to suck again.
Students are (reasonably, from their perspective) demanding tuition reductions. At the same time, the university has calculated that a pivot to online teaching and learning takes approximately twice the staffing resources as it would have to continue business as usual. And that teaching an already-converted online class still takes more staffing resources (faculty time + support time) than the off-line equivalent would. So where are these tuition refunds supposed to come from? (Unlike the American situation, we don't charge students a levy for campus resources etc, so there isn't that to refund either. Housing and related facilities, gyms etc are privately run by commercial companies; student clubs etc are funded by the student union which is separate student-run body).
So in the language of the neoliberal university system, somehow we are providing a worse "product" at a loss, while our "customers" want to pay less, and at the same time, the universities are facing a deficit of in some cases 400 million or 500 million dollars (for a single institution) that they somehow have to make up - probably by cutting faculty and maybe entire disciplines. We are so screwed.
posted by lollusc at 9:26 PM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
Online software engineering, even the collaborative parts, costs a shit ton less. I don't see how you can say the online uni is equivalent or more cost.
Teaching face-to-face involves:
- preparing a syllabus (planning the readings, the assessments, etc)
- answering student inquiries from students planning to take the class, through to students in your class during the semester, and students after the class has ended, querying grades etc. This can be hundreds of emails a week.
- preparing lectures, preparing to facilitate labs or discussions (usually around 4-8 hours of preparation for 1 hour of class time)
- actually giving the lecture or facilitating the class
- reading and grading student assignments
- keeping a class website up to date with the resources for each week, any extra multimedia materials, links, etc, reminders of when homework is due, announcements.
- professional development to improve one's own teaching, which might involve arranging peer review, keeping a reflective teaching journal, taking classes, or reading pedagogical books
- filling in all the admin forms, especially around submitting grades and dealing with cheating/plagiarism, at the end of the semester.
I might have forgotten some stuff.
But none of that goes away when you teach online instead of face-to-face. The only one that's at all different is the preparation of lectures/discussions and giving those. You are still going to spend the 4-8 hours per class preparing content for an online class, even if the content is delivered differently (e.g. via recordings, or self-paced interactive online materials, or moderated discussion boards and/or a mix of these). If you produce recorded content, it will generally take much longer to record than it would have to deliver live, because you have to fuss with the equipment, figure out lighting and software, and probably do retakes and/or editing of the final product, if you don't want the video to really suck. Your university may in fact require video material to all be subtitled for accessibility. Transcription of subtitles takes FOREVER. Alternatively you might have to record from a script (as we do) so that the script can be provided for accessibility. For someone who does not usually write out their lectures in full, that takes hours more time.
And then on top of all those activities above, there are extra ones associated with online teaching:
- you usually have to learn a new digital platform, or features you haven't learned previously of the current one.
- students feel more isolated, and are either more likely to contact you more frequently, or will disappear entirely with no way for you to monitor their progress the way you naturally do through in-class interactions, so you end up proactively contacting them.
- the recordings and transcription I mentioned above
- moderating any interactive features of your digital platform. If e.g. there is sexist or racist or otherwise offensive stuff going down, you need to be on top of that to delete and deal with the students.
- students themselves are learning to use a new digital platform or new features of the platform they have previously used. They will not know how to submit assignments, how to deal with interactive features, how to access any resources that take more than a single click. They will have IT issues due to authentication problems, software conflicts, use of weird or deprecated browsers, or even just internet connection failures, and even if technically it's your IT department's problem to solve, the students are going to contact you first and hold you responsible, and if you want them to be able to keep up with the class instead of waiting 7-10 working days for IT to respond to their ticket, you are going to need to provide that tech support.
I'm sure there's stuff I haven't thought of, but these are all reasons for why online teaching takes more time.
posted by lollusc at 9:40 PM on June 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
Teaching face-to-face involves:
- preparing a syllabus (planning the readings, the assessments, etc)
- answering student inquiries from students planning to take the class, through to students in your class during the semester, and students after the class has ended, querying grades etc. This can be hundreds of emails a week.
- preparing lectures, preparing to facilitate labs or discussions (usually around 4-8 hours of preparation for 1 hour of class time)
- actually giving the lecture or facilitating the class
- reading and grading student assignments
- keeping a class website up to date with the resources for each week, any extra multimedia materials, links, etc, reminders of when homework is due, announcements.
- professional development to improve one's own teaching, which might involve arranging peer review, keeping a reflective teaching journal, taking classes, or reading pedagogical books
- filling in all the admin forms, especially around submitting grades and dealing with cheating/plagiarism, at the end of the semester.
I might have forgotten some stuff.
But none of that goes away when you teach online instead of face-to-face. The only one that's at all different is the preparation of lectures/discussions and giving those. You are still going to spend the 4-8 hours per class preparing content for an online class, even if the content is delivered differently (e.g. via recordings, or self-paced interactive online materials, or moderated discussion boards and/or a mix of these). If you produce recorded content, it will generally take much longer to record than it would have to deliver live, because you have to fuss with the equipment, figure out lighting and software, and probably do retakes and/or editing of the final product, if you don't want the video to really suck. Your university may in fact require video material to all be subtitled for accessibility. Transcription of subtitles takes FOREVER. Alternatively you might have to record from a script (as we do) so that the script can be provided for accessibility. For someone who does not usually write out their lectures in full, that takes hours more time.
And then on top of all those activities above, there are extra ones associated with online teaching:
- you usually have to learn a new digital platform, or features you haven't learned previously of the current one.
- students feel more isolated, and are either more likely to contact you more frequently, or will disappear entirely with no way for you to monitor their progress the way you naturally do through in-class interactions, so you end up proactively contacting them.
- the recordings and transcription I mentioned above
- moderating any interactive features of your digital platform. If e.g. there is sexist or racist or otherwise offensive stuff going down, you need to be on top of that to delete and deal with the students.
- students themselves are learning to use a new digital platform or new features of the platform they have previously used. They will not know how to submit assignments, how to deal with interactive features, how to access any resources that take more than a single click. They will have IT issues due to authentication problems, software conflicts, use of weird or deprecated browsers, or even just internet connection failures, and even if technically it's your IT department's problem to solve, the students are going to contact you first and hold you responsible, and if you want them to be able to keep up with the class instead of waiting 7-10 working days for IT to respond to their ticket, you are going to need to provide that tech support.
I'm sure there's stuff I haven't thought of, but these are all reasons for why online teaching takes more time.
posted by lollusc at 9:40 PM on June 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
Teaching face-to-face involves:
I don't immediately buy the Baumal cost disease theory of education. Education is structured entirely different than any other part of working life, and it seems like the vast independence we grant college instructors comes at the cost of productivity. The structure of labor matters here; I'm reasonably sure that 1 professor teaching 300 students Chemistry 101 will be less productive than 5 teaching 1500 students, even though the student-teacher ratios are equal.
To sort through your examples, tasks that don't require more work as class size grows:
- preparing a syllabus (planning the readings, the assessments, etc)
- preparing lectures, preparing to facilitate labs or discussions (usually around 4-8 hours of preparation for 1 hour of class time)
- actually giving the lecture or facilitating the class
- keeping a class website up to date with the resources for each week, any extra multimedia materials, links, etc, reminders of when homework is due, announcements.
- professional development to improve one's own teaching, which might involve arranging peer review, keeping a reflective teaching journal, taking classes, or reading pedagogical books
Tasks that scale linearly:
- answering student inquiries from students planning to take the class, through to students in your class during the semester, and students after the class has ended, querying grades etc.
- reading and grading student assignments
- filling in all the admin forms, especially around submitting grades and dealing with cheating/plagiarism, at the end of the semester.
Tasks scale super-linearly as you add instructors:
- ?
But you're absolutely right, that doing what is done now 'but with the Internet' solves only the feasibility of distance education.
posted by pwnguin at 10:37 PM on June 16, 2020
I don't immediately buy the Baumal cost disease theory of education. Education is structured entirely different than any other part of working life, and it seems like the vast independence we grant college instructors comes at the cost of productivity. The structure of labor matters here; I'm reasonably sure that 1 professor teaching 300 students Chemistry 101 will be less productive than 5 teaching 1500 students, even though the student-teacher ratios are equal.
To sort through your examples, tasks that don't require more work as class size grows:
- preparing a syllabus (planning the readings, the assessments, etc)
- preparing lectures, preparing to facilitate labs or discussions (usually around 4-8 hours of preparation for 1 hour of class time)
- actually giving the lecture or facilitating the class
- keeping a class website up to date with the resources for each week, any extra multimedia materials, links, etc, reminders of when homework is due, announcements.
- professional development to improve one's own teaching, which might involve arranging peer review, keeping a reflective teaching journal, taking classes, or reading pedagogical books
Tasks that scale linearly:
- answering student inquiries from students planning to take the class, through to students in your class during the semester, and students after the class has ended, querying grades etc.
- reading and grading student assignments
- filling in all the admin forms, especially around submitting grades and dealing with cheating/plagiarism, at the end of the semester.
Tasks scale super-linearly as you add instructors:
- ?
But you're absolutely right, that doing what is done now 'but with the Internet' solves only the feasibility of distance education.
posted by pwnguin at 10:37 PM on June 16, 2020
You are right pwnguin that many tasks don't scale or only scale linearly with increased student numbers and that online education gives us the opportunity to experiment with larger class sizes (even MOOCs). However, the experience of running a MOOC is incredibly different from running a small class where every student has teacher interaction and where the instructor can monitor interstudent interactions. Even the first time I taught a large intro class (= 300-ish students) instead of a smaller one (20-30 students) was a massive learning curve in how to reconceptualise and restructure teaching and learning to make it work well in that context. So for a university that thinks it's doing online for one or two semesters, scaling up class sizes might save on number of instructors, but at the expense of increased instructor hours for this reconceptualisation / restructuring.
In the long term, maybe that's the way we will go, and heaven help us all when universities only need (or think they need) to employ a tenth the number of faculty they currently have. Or like one senior professor with a horde of contingent low-level staff to moderate forums or whatever. And at that point, what student is going to pay tens of thousands of dollars per year when they could be using Lynda.com or Coursera for a fraction of that?
posted by lollusc at 12:29 AM on June 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
In the long term, maybe that's the way we will go, and heaven help us all when universities only need (or think they need) to employ a tenth the number of faculty they currently have. Or like one senior professor with a horde of contingent low-level staff to moderate forums or whatever. And at that point, what student is going to pay tens of thousands of dollars per year when they could be using Lynda.com or Coursera for a fraction of that?
posted by lollusc at 12:29 AM on June 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
(Also it's not like most of our classes have thousands of students enrolled across multiple sections. I believe in our humanities part of the university, there's something like 5 courses with more than 100 students, and dozens with fewer than 50. There's no economy of scale to be had with online learning here unless we are magically attracting many more enrolments, or somehow squishing together French Language 203 with Japanese Post WWII History and Irish Women's Literature.)
posted by lollusc at 12:32 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by lollusc at 12:32 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
I believe in our humanities part of the university, there's something like 5 courses with more than 100 students, and dozens with fewer than 50. There's no economy of scale to be had with online learning here unless we are magically attracting many more enrolments
Doesn't this though assume that the number of universities need remain steady rather than, say, having more students enrolled in fewer numbers of classes, where the economy of scale, in theory, could kick in? Universities rely on a lot on certain assumptions around learning that don't have much of a strong base in evidence for their support, in large part because the romantic ideal of higher learning as a social and aspirational value still holds strong appeal, while the more utilitarian concept of the university as a job preparation market is perhaps the more pressing current consideration. Which is why the humanities don't fit to the latter model as well as the former, but the romantic ideals are used to maintain university structures that may not be the most useful for job preparation purposes, but can be a way to milk extra revenue from the students.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:02 AM on June 17, 2020
Doesn't this though assume that the number of universities need remain steady rather than, say, having more students enrolled in fewer numbers of classes, where the economy of scale, in theory, could kick in? Universities rely on a lot on certain assumptions around learning that don't have much of a strong base in evidence for their support, in large part because the romantic ideal of higher learning as a social and aspirational value still holds strong appeal, while the more utilitarian concept of the university as a job preparation market is perhaps the more pressing current consideration. Which is why the humanities don't fit to the latter model as well as the former, but the romantic ideals are used to maintain university structures that may not be the most useful for job preparation purposes, but can be a way to milk extra revenue from the students.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:02 AM on June 17, 2020
Yes, if we decide that universities are just job production factories, then you are right that we should compress the number of universities and the number of courses offered, and then take advantage of the economies of scale.
I think, however, events of the past few months have continued to show why society needs people who are educated in history, in critical reading, in sociology (e.g. understanding and critiquing systems of power), and all the other skills and understandings that the humanities can impart, even if (maybe especially if) the job market does not provide monetary incentives for these parts of our education.
posted by lollusc at 2:11 AM on June 17, 2020 [25 favorites]
I think, however, events of the past few months have continued to show why society needs people who are educated in history, in critical reading, in sociology (e.g. understanding and critiquing systems of power), and all the other skills and understandings that the humanities can impart, even if (maybe especially if) the job market does not provide monetary incentives for these parts of our education.
posted by lollusc at 2:11 AM on June 17, 2020 [25 favorites]
One of the things I taught last month was the way in which Marx talks about education, and how explicit the capitalist aim of "making workers" has become. And what that does to our perception of worth.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:26 AM on June 17, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by geek anachronism at 2:26 AM on June 17, 2020 [9 favorites]
MOOCs are just an attempt to industrialize teaching. They are a different thing entirely than online learning efforts.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:52 AM on June 17, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:52 AM on June 17, 2020 [9 favorites]
I think, however, events of the past few months have continued to show why society needs people who are educated in history, in critical reading, in sociology (e.g. understanding and critiquing systems of power), and all the other skills and understandings that the humanities can impart, even if (maybe especially if) the job market does not provide monetary incentives for these parts of our education.
I don't disagree with that, but I think the mixed purpose of career prep and personal improvement is leaving students stuck in the middle having to pay a lot more than necessary for either of those goals on their own and the universities are able to make big money off the inefficiency that isn't getting addressed due to how the way the ideals and utility have opposing demands.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:54 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
I don't disagree with that, but I think the mixed purpose of career prep and personal improvement is leaving students stuck in the middle having to pay a lot more than necessary for either of those goals on their own and the universities are able to make big money off the inefficiency that isn't getting addressed due to how the way the ideals and utility have opposing demands.
posted by gusottertrout at 2:54 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
Oh, hey. This is relevant to my interests. I'm one of the people who keeps Blackboard running at our institution. (It's actually hosted on AWS in Germany, but we have to make sure it integrates with our student records system, generate all the new courses for the next academic year, and so on.) In late March, we had to shift teaching fully online for something like thirty *thousand* students and staff in less than two weeks...and it went off more or less without a hitch.
However.
We're a team of two. Recently, my boss/coworker's time has been taken up by a huge boondoggle of a course evaluation plugin to Blackboard that one of our vice presidents has a massive thing for and basically pushed through the procurement process in record time. The integration work for it was supposed to take maybe a couple of weeks. It's now been something like three months of full-time work from my boss. (Not through any fault on his part. The company who sold us this thing is apparently really vague on their data integration requirements.) Meanwhile, I'm essentially having to do my job and his, metaphorically frantically shoveling coal into Blackboard below-decks to make sure our largest, most essential student-facing system stays up and delivering the whole learning and teaching thing that it's supposed to do.
We have other responsibilities and demands on our time. We've got pending requests for development from our learning technology team that have been sitting there for months. We're supposed to be doing integration work with our new student records system. (Which is a couple of years behind schedule. That's a whole dumpster fire in itself.) None of it is getting done while we just try to prop existing systems up.
The one good thing that's come out of all this so far--I mean, besides keeping things going--is that we've got some new management for our team now, and they're starting to realize that hey, maybe two people isn't enough for all the stuff we're being asked to do. There's technically a hiring freeze on, but we could maybe be getting a little help in the next year. Fingers crossed.
Sorry. That kind of turned into a venting session. Ordinarily I'd do this in a pub with my coworkers, but....
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:29 AM on June 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
However.
We're a team of two. Recently, my boss/coworker's time has been taken up by a huge boondoggle of a course evaluation plugin to Blackboard that one of our vice presidents has a massive thing for and basically pushed through the procurement process in record time. The integration work for it was supposed to take maybe a couple of weeks. It's now been something like three months of full-time work from my boss. (Not through any fault on his part. The company who sold us this thing is apparently really vague on their data integration requirements.) Meanwhile, I'm essentially having to do my job and his, metaphorically frantically shoveling coal into Blackboard below-decks to make sure our largest, most essential student-facing system stays up and delivering the whole learning and teaching thing that it's supposed to do.
We have other responsibilities and demands on our time. We've got pending requests for development from our learning technology team that have been sitting there for months. We're supposed to be doing integration work with our new student records system. (Which is a couple of years behind schedule. That's a whole dumpster fire in itself.) None of it is getting done while we just try to prop existing systems up.
The one good thing that's come out of all this so far--I mean, besides keeping things going--is that we've got some new management for our team now, and they're starting to realize that hey, maybe two people isn't enough for all the stuff we're being asked to do. There's technically a hiring freeze on, but we could maybe be getting a little help in the next year. Fingers crossed.
Sorry. That kind of turned into a venting session. Ordinarily I'd do this in a pub with my coworkers, but....
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:29 AM on June 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
it seems like the vast independence we grant college instructors comes at the cost of productivity
It's also a large proportion of how we get paid instead of with money. If it's just another job where The Man is always looking over your shoulder to make sure you're doing everything his way, like k12 has turned into over the last hundred years, fuck it. There are lots of jobs like that and most of them pay better.
Doesn't this though assume that the number of universities need remain steady
Don't worry about that. It's about to decline sharply.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:08 AM on June 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
It's also a large proportion of how we get paid instead of with money. If it's just another job where The Man is always looking over your shoulder to make sure you're doing everything his way, like k12 has turned into over the last hundred years, fuck it. There are lots of jobs like that and most of them pay better.
Doesn't this though assume that the number of universities need remain steady
Don't worry about that. It's about to decline sharply.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:08 AM on June 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
the more utilitarian concept of the university as a job preparation market is perhaps the more pressing current consideration. Which is why the humanities don't fit to the latter model as well as the former
Humanities are great as job preparation.
Except for the few explicitly professional degrees like nursing or accounting BA/BS's and kinda-sorta engineering programs, the job preparation part doesn't come from "Here is the exact skill set some intro level job requires." The point of it all from the point of view of that vast horde of Big Anonymous Corporate Jobs is that college graduates have had extensive training at being information processors. Succeeding at almost any major isn't possible unless you can ingest lots of mostly-useless stuff with some information in it, find the information that's relevant to some particular task, and communicate what you found to somebody else. So, college graduate required, but they don't care whether it's in lit or aero or psych or even god help them polisci.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:18 AM on June 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
Humanities are great as job preparation.
Except for the few explicitly professional degrees like nursing or accounting BA/BS's and kinda-sorta engineering programs, the job preparation part doesn't come from "Here is the exact skill set some intro level job requires." The point of it all from the point of view of that vast horde of Big Anonymous Corporate Jobs is that college graduates have had extensive training at being information processors. Succeeding at almost any major isn't possible unless you can ingest lots of mostly-useless stuff with some information in it, find the information that's relevant to some particular task, and communicate what you found to somebody else. So, college graduate required, but they don't care whether it's in lit or aero or psych or even god help them polisci.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:18 AM on June 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
How is there not a decent FOSS educational CMS?
5 years ago, after doing a competitive analysis of LMS software, I gained a lot of insight into why they tend to suck.
To begin with, you start with the Pareto Principle which can be interpreted here as 80 percent of LMS users only use 20 percent of the features in the software. In other words, there is a lot of bloat, especially for the older ones like Blackboard where the cruft has grown over two decades.
The newer LMS systems have a slightly different issue, and I realized this first-hand after talking to some of the developers behind-the-scenes. These LMSes are businesses who aim to please, so when an important or big client asks for a feature to be implemented, you tend to do it in order to make them happy.
The problem with that is you might think all educational institutions have a standardized way of dealing with things like grades, homework, tests, etc. (Folks in the industry I can hear you laughing from here). But, yeah, that's not the case. So in the desire to please (and to get paid) the LMS bakes in the feature requested and suddenly that becomes part of the software DNA. Then what happens is another organization comes around and sees this highly polished feature and say "That's nice, but we would never use that, but could you make Feature "X" just as robust?". The LMS developers agree if the price is right and the cycle continues.
One thing I can tell you is that users are the last folks consulted in this process. Just look at Mr. Bad Example's comment above. Some high-ranking admin with access to the purse strings is the one deciding what features are prioritized based on an arbitrary or misguided reason. And that right there is the history of LMSes.
posted by jeremias at 4:37 AM on June 17, 2020 [9 favorites]
5 years ago, after doing a competitive analysis of LMS software, I gained a lot of insight into why they tend to suck.
To begin with, you start with the Pareto Principle which can be interpreted here as 80 percent of LMS users only use 20 percent of the features in the software. In other words, there is a lot of bloat, especially for the older ones like Blackboard where the cruft has grown over two decades.
The newer LMS systems have a slightly different issue, and I realized this first-hand after talking to some of the developers behind-the-scenes. These LMSes are businesses who aim to please, so when an important or big client asks for a feature to be implemented, you tend to do it in order to make them happy.
The problem with that is you might think all educational institutions have a standardized way of dealing with things like grades, homework, tests, etc. (Folks in the industry I can hear you laughing from here). But, yeah, that's not the case. So in the desire to please (and to get paid) the LMS bakes in the feature requested and suddenly that becomes part of the software DNA. Then what happens is another organization comes around and sees this highly polished feature and say "That's nice, but we would never use that, but could you make Feature "X" just as robust?". The LMS developers agree if the price is right and the cycle continues.
One thing I can tell you is that users are the last folks consulted in this process. Just look at Mr. Bad Example's comment above. Some high-ranking admin with access to the purse strings is the one deciding what features are prioritized based on an arbitrary or misguided reason. And that right there is the history of LMSes.
posted by jeremias at 4:37 AM on June 17, 2020 [9 favorites]
It may be time to recognize that the world's best researchers are not automatically the world's best teachers,
This feels like a response to a different point. The reality here is that unless you have an insane research load as an academic then you will be teaching as well as delivering research. These will often combine to give a workload that demands 50-60 hours and now more is being added.
and that having 500 of professors produce variations on the same course without collaboration, review, or comparison is ineffective.
This is an interesting point. It cropped up as a discussion point in our faculty meeting about 6 weeks ago but seems to have been dropped entirely now, despite the fact we are in all sorts of groups with other institutions and core syllabus stuff will be identical across all similar depts. I'm sure someone at the top has been worried about brand identity or some other shit and rejected it out of hand. Again, this goes to the fact that most places just seem happy to dump a load of extra teaching on already overloaded staff. Many of the decisions that have come from the centre at our place do so with little logical justification. Some smartie has decided starting M level programmes in September and January is a good idea, effectively doubling teaching load for those programmes.
posted by biffa at 5:55 AM on June 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
This feels like a response to a different point. The reality here is that unless you have an insane research load as an academic then you will be teaching as well as delivering research. These will often combine to give a workload that demands 50-60 hours and now more is being added.
and that having 500 of professors produce variations on the same course without collaboration, review, or comparison is ineffective.
This is an interesting point. It cropped up as a discussion point in our faculty meeting about 6 weeks ago but seems to have been dropped entirely now, despite the fact we are in all sorts of groups with other institutions and core syllabus stuff will be identical across all similar depts. I'm sure someone at the top has been worried about brand identity or some other shit and rejected it out of hand. Again, this goes to the fact that most places just seem happy to dump a load of extra teaching on already overloaded staff. Many of the decisions that have come from the centre at our place do so with little logical justification. Some smartie has decided starting M level programmes in September and January is a good idea, effectively doubling teaching load for those programmes.
posted by biffa at 5:55 AM on June 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
I am curious if any of the people arguing that we should really pack in the students to take advantage of 'economies of scale' have taught a university level course before.
As for LMS, my best summary of why I don't enjoy them comes from my institution's FAQ:
Q: "How can I make it so that the classes I am currently teaching show up in the side bar?"
A: "That is not what the side bar is for."
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:06 AM on June 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
As for LMS, my best summary of why I don't enjoy them comes from my institution's FAQ:
Q: "How can I make it so that the classes I am currently teaching show up in the side bar?"
A: "That is not what the side bar is for."
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:06 AM on June 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
So here's a good one, just for shits and giggles. My elder son had physed this year and he has to do his "final exam" here at home. His teacher gave him a beep test where he has to run 20 metres before the beep, pivot, run it again, etc. etc. etc. until he misses two beeps for speed and then he has to record where he got to.
1. Our backyard is not 20 m wide at any point that is flat, so we have to mark it on the sidewalk.
2. The video is in YouTube, and our wifi doesn't reach to the sidewalk.
Obviously it's not a huge deal and we're working it out but there are significant barriers to entry for this exam.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:34 AM on June 17, 2020 [6 favorites]
1. Our backyard is not 20 m wide at any point that is flat, so we have to mark it on the sidewalk.
2. The video is in YouTube, and our wifi doesn't reach to the sidewalk.
Obviously it's not a huge deal and we're working it out but there are significant barriers to entry for this exam.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:34 AM on June 17, 2020 [6 favorites]
>>Doesn't this though assume that the number of universities need remain steady
>Don't worry about that. It's about to decline sharply.
I'm already seeing people I know (tenured, highly-credentialed, etc) being laid off, furloughed, and/or getting pay cuts. Or, getting effective pay cuts by having to absorb advising and other responsibilities from people who were let go and from conditional/adjunct faculty lines that are being put on hold. It feels like the slow-moving start to a disaster that is going to force a lot of places to close over the coming year.
To sort through your examples, tasks that don't require more work as class size grows:
- preparing a syllabus (planning the readings, the assessments, etc)
- preparing lectures, preparing to facilitate labs or discussions (usually around 4-8 hours of preparation for 1 hour of class time)
- actually giving the lecture or facilitating the class
I disagree -- most or all of these are more complicated as the class size increases and don't get any less complex if things are online. If you are teaching a small class of 10-15 students, lectures can be more informal, discussions can happen organically, and the syllabus can be a living document that shifts to fit the needs of the class. For hundreds of students (much less thousands), all of that takes more work, more organization, more documentation, etc. (And, assuming you get the support you should be getting, you are also supervising/mentoring a group of TAs, which takes time as well.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 AM on June 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
>Don't worry about that. It's about to decline sharply.
I'm already seeing people I know (tenured, highly-credentialed, etc) being laid off, furloughed, and/or getting pay cuts. Or, getting effective pay cuts by having to absorb advising and other responsibilities from people who were let go and from conditional/adjunct faculty lines that are being put on hold. It feels like the slow-moving start to a disaster that is going to force a lot of places to close over the coming year.
To sort through your examples, tasks that don't require more work as class size grows:
- preparing a syllabus (planning the readings, the assessments, etc)
- preparing lectures, preparing to facilitate labs or discussions (usually around 4-8 hours of preparation for 1 hour of class time)
- actually giving the lecture or facilitating the class
I disagree -- most or all of these are more complicated as the class size increases and don't get any less complex if things are online. If you are teaching a small class of 10-15 students, lectures can be more informal, discussions can happen organically, and the syllabus can be a living document that shifts to fit the needs of the class. For hundreds of students (much less thousands), all of that takes more work, more organization, more documentation, etc. (And, assuming you get the support you should be getting, you are also supervising/mentoring a group of TAs, which takes time as well.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 AM on June 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
The idea that somehow pivoting a 300-level in-person university course to online is less expensive or time-consuming than in-person would be funny if it weren't apparently also the viewpoint of the bean-counters who capriciously decide what things must cost with little if any attention to what they do cost.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:48 AM on June 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 6:48 AM on June 17, 2020 [5 favorites]
I don't think the issue is the expense of running the programme, its why the students should pay the same for costly online programme plus amenities that they pay for costly face-2-face programme. Sure, the uni still has costly amenities to pay but in the UK if all the unis are getting together to keep costs high and the government has approved (mandated even) it represents an abuse of the customer base.
posted by biffa at 7:11 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by biffa at 7:11 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
Universities still have to pay their physical costs - sure you can turn the lights off but you can't have things melt or pipes burst. They have to have security and maintenance in. They have to continue to upgrade things. Healthcare, pension, etc. Journal subscriptions.
I have no idea what else 'cause I'm not a university admin. But I get this from ignorant people all the time. "Your staff is furloughed so you don't have any costs!" Uh...no. This isn't a case where you can redo your costs from the ground up as if you'd been virtual all along and all you have to pay for is good microphones (GOOD MICROPHONES PEOPLE), bandwidth, streaming, etc.
In my business, which is shut down but offering online classes, we have two locations with rent measured in dozens of thousands and eight vehicles that we are still paying for, even though we changed the insurance, etc. etc.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:33 AM on June 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
I have no idea what else 'cause I'm not a university admin. But I get this from ignorant people all the time. "Your staff is furloughed so you don't have any costs!" Uh...no. This isn't a case where you can redo your costs from the ground up as if you'd been virtual all along and all you have to pay for is good microphones (GOOD MICROPHONES PEOPLE), bandwidth, streaming, etc.
In my business, which is shut down but offering online classes, we have two locations with rent measured in dozens of thousands and eight vehicles that we are still paying for, even though we changed the insurance, etc. etc.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:33 AM on June 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
Yes, I agree, the universities still have high costs. That is not in question. What is interesting to me is that the universities want the same money for a lesser quality good and the government has gone along with this. Its like my local pub decided to switch to take out only under the lockdown but still wants me to pay £4.50 a pint. There I can go to the off licence and pay a lot less. But the HE market seems to be rigged, and with government approval.
posted by biffa at 7:52 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by biffa at 7:52 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
You realize that your local pub (if they're continuing to employ people) still has all of the same staffing and overhead costs as if they were operating normally, right? Much like a university does?
posted by codacorolla at 8:18 AM on June 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 8:18 AM on June 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
More to the point: do you want your local pub to exist in any form, or any pubs, once you can use them again?
posted by sciatrix at 8:27 AM on June 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 8:27 AM on June 17, 2020 [8 favorites]
I am curious if any of the people arguing that we should really pack in the students to take advantage of 'economies of scale' have taught a university level course before.
For a while I was a GTA for undergrad courses; and I spent a few years managing university and community college LMS's, as well as automating various parts of the university. I fully admit it's not quite the same as being faculty. But I do understand the constraints of the system they work within.I don't expect individual instructors on mefi to change; it's the system itself that would need to change.
Think of it like this -- we measure university 'elites' not by how many people they successfully educate, but by what percentage of applicants they turn down. From that perspective, if we gave everyone in the country a Harvard education, it would be the worst thing imaginable for them. So as you can imagine, they were the first Ivy to join the Common App system in 1994, which made the process of applying to them must easier but improved the results of education negligibly. Until that perspective changes, the idea of scaling up quality instruction is fighting a massive uphill battle.
posted by pwnguin at 9:48 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
For a while I was a GTA for undergrad courses; and I spent a few years managing university and community college LMS's, as well as automating various parts of the university. I fully admit it's not quite the same as being faculty. But I do understand the constraints of the system they work within.I don't expect individual instructors on mefi to change; it's the system itself that would need to change.
Think of it like this -- we measure university 'elites' not by how many people they successfully educate, but by what percentage of applicants they turn down. From that perspective, if we gave everyone in the country a Harvard education, it would be the worst thing imaginable for them. So as you can imagine, they were the first Ivy to join the Common App system in 1994, which made the process of applying to them must easier but improved the results of education negligibly. Until that perspective changes, the idea of scaling up quality instruction is fighting a massive uphill battle.
posted by pwnguin at 9:48 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
You realize that your local pub (if they're continuing to employ people) still has all of the same staffing and overhead costs as if they were operating normally, right? Much like a university does?
I do. Do you realise you missed my point entirely? Its about changing the product on offer but wanting the full price. The pub can no longer offer the pub experience, when the price of a pint included a convivial atmosphere. The pub acting as an off-licence has to charge a price which is on a par with the off-licence or customers will all go to the off-licence.
University costs are high. We all agree on this yes?
University programmes on offer from September will be of very reduced quality. Yes?
Many of the benefits normally provided in university fees will not be provided in September.
But in the UK (where universities are supposed to be competitive in a regulated framework) the government has given the universities permission to go ahead and charge full price even though their customers will not get the full product. The government gleefully announced universities could charge full price to students, essentially passing any issue with sectoral funding to the country's 18 year olds.
posted by biffa at 10:57 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
I do. Do you realise you missed my point entirely? Its about changing the product on offer but wanting the full price. The pub can no longer offer the pub experience, when the price of a pint included a convivial atmosphere. The pub acting as an off-licence has to charge a price which is on a par with the off-licence or customers will all go to the off-licence.
University costs are high. We all agree on this yes?
University programmes on offer from September will be of very reduced quality. Yes?
Many of the benefits normally provided in university fees will not be provided in September.
But in the UK (where universities are supposed to be competitive in a regulated framework) the government has given the universities permission to go ahead and charge full price even though their customers will not get the full product. The government gleefully announced universities could charge full price to students, essentially passing any issue with sectoral funding to the country's 18 year olds.
posted by biffa at 10:57 AM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
I do not concede that online education is inherently and always inferior to face-to-face education and there is a large and wide body of research that supports this view. So I think that is not a good place to make your stand and more importantly I think it loses focus on this moment in time when we're not going to be producing the highest quality teaching and learning given the time and resources we have available.
I have a huge amount of sympathy for my colleagues in the provost's and president's offices who are having to make these difficult choices. For some institutions, a massive decrease in enrollment during a fall or spring semester would spell the end of the college; they are genuinely living hand-to-mouth. In all honesty, I think that some of those institutions were going to fold at some point in the next 5-10 years anyway as the demographic wave is receding and many states are graduating fewer high school students. But institutions that are financially stable enough to stumble through a semester or two with multi-million dollar budget shortfalls - larger, research universities like mine have already gone tens of millions of dollars in the red during the spring semester - will have to go through hugely painful periods with many people laid off and services cut to the bone. And as already been mentioned, there are a lot of us who know that many students survive or thrive on or near campus not just because of the academics but also because of the other support services including the informal ones that aren't offered directly by the institution e.g., social support by peers. So I also reject broad notions and accusations that institutions and administrators that are trying to have face-to-face classes are inherently evil, selfish, or stupid.
posted by ElKevbo at 11:28 AM on June 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
I have a huge amount of sympathy for my colleagues in the provost's and president's offices who are having to make these difficult choices. For some institutions, a massive decrease in enrollment during a fall or spring semester would spell the end of the college; they are genuinely living hand-to-mouth. In all honesty, I think that some of those institutions were going to fold at some point in the next 5-10 years anyway as the demographic wave is receding and many states are graduating fewer high school students. But institutions that are financially stable enough to stumble through a semester or two with multi-million dollar budget shortfalls - larger, research universities like mine have already gone tens of millions of dollars in the red during the spring semester - will have to go through hugely painful periods with many people laid off and services cut to the bone. And as already been mentioned, there are a lot of us who know that many students survive or thrive on or near campus not just because of the academics but also because of the other support services including the informal ones that aren't offered directly by the institution e.g., social support by peers. So I also reject broad notions and accusations that institutions and administrators that are trying to have face-to-face classes are inherently evil, selfish, or stupid.
posted by ElKevbo at 11:28 AM on June 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
This is going to kill a lot of smaller HCBUs. I’ve seen a few small ones go down in the past couple years already and I can’t imagine how hard this is going to be for the rest.
posted by bq at 12:14 PM on June 17, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by bq at 12:14 PM on June 17, 2020 [6 favorites]
this NYT piece has some good burns:
“These plans are so unrealistically optimistic that they border on delusional....”
posted by bq at 12:16 PM on June 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
“These plans are so unrealistically optimistic that they border on delusional....”
posted by bq at 12:16 PM on June 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
one of the things the lecturers were striking over
Sorry, I know this is a tangent, but I feel compelled to point this out every time the subject comes up--it wasn't just lecturers striking. There were masses of us professional services types striking right alongside them, but the news kept insisting on calling everything "lecturers' strikes" and never mentioning the rest of us.
I will now get down off my soapbox before Health and Safety sees me standing up here without proper support.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 1:32 PM on June 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
Sorry, I know this is a tangent, but I feel compelled to point this out every time the subject comes up--it wasn't just lecturers striking. There were masses of us professional services types striking right alongside them, but the news kept insisting on calling everything "lecturers' strikes" and never mentioning the rest of us.
I will now get down off my soapbox before Health and Safety sees me standing up here without proper support.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 1:32 PM on June 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
As someone who just graduated at the weekend from a completely online bachelor's degree program at the University of Washington, it bums me out so hard to see people saying online education is automatically worse. Sure, if you have your heart set on the in-person college experience, living in a dorm and walking around on campus and flirting with a cute person in your freshman English seminar course, having to take an online class instead probably does sting. And sure, classes that were intended to be taken on campus and are hastily converted to online as an emergency task during a global pandemic by people who aren't especially skilled at creating online learning modules or interested at all in teaching remotely is also really not great. But... y'all do know that there are a lot of online programs that weren't created in response to a crisis, right?
In an ideal world, all online learning would be run like the program I just graduated from -- created by people who are passionate about making education available to everyone, not just those privileged enough to be available for the romanticized "typical" college experience; supported by AV and IT staff to help with content creation, publishing, and tech support; taught by the same instructors and professors that teach on campus (teaching many of the same courses in person). Since this team has also been helping the rest of UW migrate to online learning this year, I'll be curious to see how the university weathers these changes.
Anyway, without online education, I'd never have been able to go to college. Same goes for everyone in my degree program -- we range in age from early 20's to late 60's and have lives and responsibilities that make it impossible to attend in-person classes. The only special academic concession we got was an achievement award created to recognize students with high GPAs who were only enrolled part-time and therefore ineligible for the quarterly dean's list. Otherwise, we had to meet the same grading standards as every other UW student. So the cum laude notation on my transcript carries the same weight as any in-person graduate's... and last time I checked, Phi Beta Kappa doesn't offer pity nominations, you feel me?
Oh, and as an online student, I had to pay all the fees every quarter for three years for on-campus things I never once got to use. The advisors were apologetic about it, but also pointed out that every on-campus student has to pay the technology fees that supported our program much more than their in-person classes, so... while I'm in agreement that tuition and fees in general are too high, I also can't make myself get that exercised today about the unfairness of paying fees for things one can't use.
posted by palomar at 2:12 PM on June 17, 2020 [14 favorites]
In an ideal world, all online learning would be run like the program I just graduated from -- created by people who are passionate about making education available to everyone, not just those privileged enough to be available for the romanticized "typical" college experience; supported by AV and IT staff to help with content creation, publishing, and tech support; taught by the same instructors and professors that teach on campus (teaching many of the same courses in person). Since this team has also been helping the rest of UW migrate to online learning this year, I'll be curious to see how the university weathers these changes.
Anyway, without online education, I'd never have been able to go to college. Same goes for everyone in my degree program -- we range in age from early 20's to late 60's and have lives and responsibilities that make it impossible to attend in-person classes. The only special academic concession we got was an achievement award created to recognize students with high GPAs who were only enrolled part-time and therefore ineligible for the quarterly dean's list. Otherwise, we had to meet the same grading standards as every other UW student. So the cum laude notation on my transcript carries the same weight as any in-person graduate's... and last time I checked, Phi Beta Kappa doesn't offer pity nominations, you feel me?
Oh, and as an online student, I had to pay all the fees every quarter for three years for on-campus things I never once got to use. The advisors were apologetic about it, but also pointed out that every on-campus student has to pay the technology fees that supported our program much more than their in-person classes, so... while I'm in agreement that tuition and fees in general are too high, I also can't make myself get that exercised today about the unfairness of paying fees for things one can't use.
posted by palomar at 2:12 PM on June 17, 2020 [14 favorites]
The university where I am a postdoc SWEARS up and down that we'll be in person in the fall, with "Learn From Anywhere" as their motto. So courses need to be delivered both in person and online, simultaneously!
They've also just committed to testing every student in dorms, and every student or employee who commutes to campus by public transportation, for COVID-19 at least once a week.
This discussion is so disheartening as I fight tooth and nail to get a faculty position in what is increasingly clear is a dying career. Watching it all just ... disappear ... while I work in an underfunded discipline to get grants, the overhead of which goes to keep the university's lights on, and do research in my crumbling lab space (because I can't go to the field because primates get COVID), and figure out interesting and good and effective ways to transition my Primatology Methods course into something that can be Learned From Anywhere.
posted by ChuraChura at 3:47 PM on June 17, 2020 [10 favorites]
They've also just committed to testing every student in dorms, and every student or employee who commutes to campus by public transportation, for COVID-19 at least once a week.
This discussion is so disheartening as I fight tooth and nail to get a faculty position in what is increasingly clear is a dying career. Watching it all just ... disappear ... while I work in an underfunded discipline to get grants, the overhead of which goes to keep the university's lights on, and do research in my crumbling lab space (because I can't go to the field because primates get COVID), and figure out interesting and good and effective ways to transition my Primatology Methods course into something that can be Learned From Anywhere.
posted by ChuraChura at 3:47 PM on June 17, 2020 [10 favorites]
I think this argument may just be to do with different jurisdictions. The UK has a furlough scheme, where the government is currently paying 80% of wages to employees who can't work, up to £2,500 per month. The pub staff, just like a lot of university non-teaching staff, are furloughed at present.
This is part of the problem for us here in Australia - there is a government furlough scheme for everything except universities. They explicitly excluded universities from the scheme. They changed the rules three times to ensure we couldn't be covered.
My colleagues voted yesterday overwhelmingly (95%) for a change to our employment conditions that amounts to a 5% salary cut, dressed up in fancy clothes. In return the university promises they will make "all effort" to avoid redundancies without pay for the rest of 2020. I fully expect they will be making redundancies with a payout this year, and redundancies without payouts next year and that this is no different to what we would have got without our 5% salary reduction. Not to mention that our university is one of the least affected in the sector, with a $15 million shortfall to meet, while other nearby institutions have around 300-500 million dollar shortfalls. I worry we just sent a message to them that if $15 million means a 5% paycut, $500 million can justify much, much worse.
This is the environment under which universities are considering (or not) student requests for fee reductions. It's just not going to happen. And if that means fewer (domestic) students applying, the universities won't really care, because we aren't funded per student any more anyway since 2017, so once we hit the government funded cap on funded places (which we always go over) we run at a loss per student. So instead we just end up with an environment where only the (relatively) elite (in terms of social class, not necessarily in terms of intellect) to whom a few tens of thousands of dollars a year is pretty meaningless will go to university.
posted by lollusc at 8:05 PM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
This is part of the problem for us here in Australia - there is a government furlough scheme for everything except universities. They explicitly excluded universities from the scheme. They changed the rules three times to ensure we couldn't be covered.
My colleagues voted yesterday overwhelmingly (95%) for a change to our employment conditions that amounts to a 5% salary cut, dressed up in fancy clothes. In return the university promises they will make "all effort" to avoid redundancies without pay for the rest of 2020. I fully expect they will be making redundancies with a payout this year, and redundancies without payouts next year and that this is no different to what we would have got without our 5% salary reduction. Not to mention that our university is one of the least affected in the sector, with a $15 million shortfall to meet, while other nearby institutions have around 300-500 million dollar shortfalls. I worry we just sent a message to them that if $15 million means a 5% paycut, $500 million can justify much, much worse.
This is the environment under which universities are considering (or not) student requests for fee reductions. It's just not going to happen. And if that means fewer (domestic) students applying, the universities won't really care, because we aren't funded per student any more anyway since 2017, so once we hit the government funded cap on funded places (which we always go over) we run at a loss per student. So instead we just end up with an environment where only the (relatively) elite (in terms of social class, not necessarily in terms of intellect) to whom a few tens of thousands of dollars a year is pretty meaningless will go to university.
posted by lollusc at 8:05 PM on June 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
This is going to kill a lot of smaller HCBUs. I’ve seen a few small ones go down in the past couple years already and I can’t imagine how hard this is going to be for the rest. - posted by bq at 3:14 PM
Some good news:
Netflix CEO Reed Hastings and his wife, Patty Quillin, are donating $120 million toward student scholarships at historically black colleges and universities. The couple is giving $40 million to each of three institutions: the United Negro College Fund, Spelman College and Morehouse College. The organizations said it is the largest individual gift in support of student scholarships at HBCUs. (Associated Press, June 17, 2020)
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:24 PM on June 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
Some good news:
Netflix CEO Reed Hastings and his wife, Patty Quillin, are donating $120 million toward student scholarships at historically black colleges and universities. The couple is giving $40 million to each of three institutions: the United Negro College Fund, Spelman College and Morehouse College. The organizations said it is the largest individual gift in support of student scholarships at HBCUs. (Associated Press, June 17, 2020)
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:24 PM on June 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
Palomar: But... y'all do know that there are a lot of online programs that weren't created in response to a crisis, right?
THIS!!!
I am part of group in IT at a .edu and last week we were talking about how to deal with the "new normal," and supporting all these suddenly-remote users (both faculty/staff as well as students). There was lots of "build it up from first principles" talk going around, when I finally asked, "Doesn't the School of Online Education already have most of these documents written?"
And another guy on the call says, "Yeah, thanks, we've been doing pretty well for about ten years. Let me send them over to you. *headdesk* He's so right! They have been doing really well when they take things at a measured pace, but March of 2020 was basically the opposite of that.
--
A friend is a professor and he was bitching that that they had converted their curriculum last year from trimesters to semesters, then again this spring to remote learning, and were facing yet another overhaul this summer -- making three within the year -- but he's also refining a two-camera setup in his home office to record B-roll footage, and also has a big question bank so that quizzes can't be shared easily online, and also does tons of flipped classroom discussions. His stuff will be fine when he moves half of it to online, and the remaining lab sessions will be stronger for it.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:55 AM on June 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
THIS!!!
I am part of group in IT at a .edu and last week we were talking about how to deal with the "new normal," and supporting all these suddenly-remote users (both faculty/staff as well as students). There was lots of "build it up from first principles" talk going around, when I finally asked, "Doesn't the School of Online Education already have most of these documents written?"
And another guy on the call says, "Yeah, thanks, we've been doing pretty well for about ten years. Let me send them over to you. *headdesk* He's so right! They have been doing really well when they take things at a measured pace, but March of 2020 was basically the opposite of that.
--
A friend is a professor and he was bitching that that they had converted their curriculum last year from trimesters to semesters, then again this spring to remote learning, and were facing yet another overhaul this summer -- making three within the year -- but he's also refining a two-camera setup in his home office to record B-roll footage, and also has a big question bank so that quizzes can't be shared easily online, and also does tons of flipped classroom discussions. His stuff will be fine when he moves half of it to online, and the remaining lab sessions will be stronger for it.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:55 AM on June 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
Universities and high schools are readying high-tech ways to curb the spread of Covid-19 - "When students at Queen's Grant High School in Matthews, North Carolina, return to class in late August, they'll notice a purple glow emanating from the vents as they walk down the hallway."
posted by kliuless at 8:26 AM on June 18, 2020
posted by kliuless at 8:26 AM on June 18, 2020
Our campus will be open in the fall. Students will be in the dorms, and we are encouraged to have as many face to face classes as we can (possibly required to do so). I am frightened, and having problematic recurring thoughts like "I wonder if I will get tenure if I'm the only person in the department left alive by then."
Oh, also, we're not testing. We asked in an open forum on Monday and it was shrugged off. So anyway, it's been nice knowing you all.
posted by pemberkins at 9:04 AM on June 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
Oh, also, we're not testing. We asked in an open forum on Monday and it was shrugged off. So anyway, it's been nice knowing you all.
posted by pemberkins at 9:04 AM on June 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
"When students at Queen's Grant High School in Matthews, North Carolina, return to class in late August, they'll notice a purple glow emanating from the vents as they walk down the hallway."
Ah, there it is. THAT's the square I needed for Cyberpunk Dystopia Bingo.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 9:20 AM on June 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
Ah, there it is. THAT's the square I needed for Cyberpunk Dystopia Bingo.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 9:20 AM on June 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
I just got an email from my boss asking us all to fill out a survey indicating our preference for how much time we'd spend on-campus vs. remote in the Fall. Ooof. It's the thing that finally drove me to make an appointment with the Employee Assistance Program, because I need to sort out some bigger things before I fill out that survey.
I'm an academic advisor for mostly first-year students, and I actually think that remote advising is going better than I expected. It sounds like we're going to continue mostly remote in the Fall, which is probably the right call. (I think there are things that I could do to make me feel comfortable meeting in my office with students, but there is no way to make the waiting room safe during our busy times.) But I'm worried that students in dorms will have even less privacy than students at home do, and I don't know what that's going to do to the dynamic. And I'm worried about the dorms.
So basically, I feel significantly less worried about my own safety than I did yesterday, but I am equally concerned about how the institution as a whole is going to handle things.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:24 AM on June 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm an academic advisor for mostly first-year students, and I actually think that remote advising is going better than I expected. It sounds like we're going to continue mostly remote in the Fall, which is probably the right call. (I think there are things that I could do to make me feel comfortable meeting in my office with students, but there is no way to make the waiting room safe during our busy times.) But I'm worried that students in dorms will have even less privacy than students at home do, and I don't know what that's going to do to the dynamic. And I'm worried about the dorms.
So basically, I feel significantly less worried about my own safety than I did yesterday, but I am equally concerned about how the institution as a whole is going to handle things.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:24 AM on June 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
My alma mater's "plans" can essentially be boiled down to a combination of "fuck it, do what you want" with a good smattering of "pandemic theatre" that seems utterly divorced from any sort of evidence or concept of reality (a new "app" for mandatory daily health check-ins! magical student COVID testing that is somehow going to materialize from the ether at the beginning of semester! cancelling fall and spring breaks! teaching in tents outside!). They are offering students the choice to come back to campus (or not), and demanding that faculty ensure that students have the option to take EVERY class in an online, asynchronous version. Face-to-face teaching will be allowed (but not required), and some monstrous version of hybrid classrooms (plus the mandatory async components) are strongly recommended. What this actually looks like in practice is being left up to individual departments (and within those, up to individual profs) to decide.
While I'm sure this all sounds very nice to the parents who are forking over obscene money for the privilege of wearing sweatshirts with this institution's name on them, my suspicion is that the department-level implementation of these measures will be uneven at best, and that no amount of online learning experts and professionals (and the institution absolutely has them! and they are definitely wonderful resources who have so much expertise to offer....if folks actually bother to USE them!) is ever going to make a stubborn prof who is an absolute WIZARD in a seminar room but who can barely compose an email into an effective developer or teacher of online classes. For every brilliant prof or adjunct working their ass off to adapt their classrooms to the new reality, and for every support professional working overtime to make the transition as smooth and as pedagogically effective as possible, you still have professors who are incapable of or simply refuse to change, and who are doing the absolute bare minimum possible to comply with the letter of the new guidelines without actually changing anything about how they deliver material to students. It doesn't help that the institution's model for online instruction is very heavily based on the sciences and doesn't translate particularly well to the small seminar format that is the norm for many humanities departments, but (as many have said in this thread already) it is absolutely possible to teach the humanities effectively online, IF the prof is willing to learn how, and willing to let go of certain notions about how we teach, model, and engage in our intellectual work. Some professors will use this challenge as an opportunity to grow, and some will use it as an opportunity to dig their heels in. It is going to be an absolute crapshoot for students, with some of them getting the former, and a lot of them getting the latter. And, has been mentioned several times, the awesomeness of the prof in a "regular" setting is absolutely not a predictor of what they can offer in this new reality. As someone who would really, really like to have the job that these folks have, it is disheartening to see the resisters, but really fucking inspiring to see those who are going above and beyond to make sure that the remote version of their class is every bit as fulfilling as an in-person version would be, and also really unfair that this substantial extra work is likely going uncompensated, and likely falling more heavily on the shoulders of those in this profession who are already over-exploited and under-valued.
I don't know what the right way to re-open is (and I have nothing but empathy for the professionals trying to put a plan together that is inevitably bound to please no one), but the ad-hoc way that this institution is going about it, which seems to me to be a whole lot of talk about "prioritizing the safety of the community" and a whole lot of jargon about "hybrid learning" without a lot of substance to back up either facet of their opening plan, does not seem like the best way forward, from either a pedagogical or a health and safety point of view.
I'm so, so sorry for all the students and parents facing an impossible series of choices about education in the midst of an already impossible situation.
posted by Dorinda at 3:25 PM on June 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
While I'm sure this all sounds very nice to the parents who are forking over obscene money for the privilege of wearing sweatshirts with this institution's name on them, my suspicion is that the department-level implementation of these measures will be uneven at best, and that no amount of online learning experts and professionals (and the institution absolutely has them! and they are definitely wonderful resources who have so much expertise to offer....if folks actually bother to USE them!) is ever going to make a stubborn prof who is an absolute WIZARD in a seminar room but who can barely compose an email into an effective developer or teacher of online classes. For every brilliant prof or adjunct working their ass off to adapt their classrooms to the new reality, and for every support professional working overtime to make the transition as smooth and as pedagogically effective as possible, you still have professors who are incapable of or simply refuse to change, and who are doing the absolute bare minimum possible to comply with the letter of the new guidelines without actually changing anything about how they deliver material to students. It doesn't help that the institution's model for online instruction is very heavily based on the sciences and doesn't translate particularly well to the small seminar format that is the norm for many humanities departments, but (as many have said in this thread already) it is absolutely possible to teach the humanities effectively online, IF the prof is willing to learn how, and willing to let go of certain notions about how we teach, model, and engage in our intellectual work. Some professors will use this challenge as an opportunity to grow, and some will use it as an opportunity to dig their heels in. It is going to be an absolute crapshoot for students, with some of them getting the former, and a lot of them getting the latter. And, has been mentioned several times, the awesomeness of the prof in a "regular" setting is absolutely not a predictor of what they can offer in this new reality. As someone who would really, really like to have the job that these folks have, it is disheartening to see the resisters, but really fucking inspiring to see those who are going above and beyond to make sure that the remote version of their class is every bit as fulfilling as an in-person version would be, and also really unfair that this substantial extra work is likely going uncompensated, and likely falling more heavily on the shoulders of those in this profession who are already over-exploited and under-valued.
I don't know what the right way to re-open is (and I have nothing but empathy for the professionals trying to put a plan together that is inevitably bound to please no one), but the ad-hoc way that this institution is going about it, which seems to me to be a whole lot of talk about "prioritizing the safety of the community" and a whole lot of jargon about "hybrid learning" without a lot of substance to back up either facet of their opening plan, does not seem like the best way forward, from either a pedagogical or a health and safety point of view.
I'm so, so sorry for all the students and parents facing an impossible series of choices about education in the midst of an already impossible situation.
posted by Dorinda at 3:25 PM on June 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
Well, I finally found *something* about contact tracing for my university, but this is all it says:
"The COVID-19 testing plan (including contact tracing) for [university] is being finalized and will be announced soon".
Wonder what they think soon is. Our fall semester starts in just over 8 weeks. (It also reminds me of language from a prior university I worked at that said "divisions ought to produce a document with a policy for dealing with sexual harassment." No actual policy, just "there ought to be one". Great...)
On the bright side I did also actually find info about the university having an equipment program for affected students -- providing laptops as well as wifi hotspots that can be checked out for home use. I don't know how much it has been used or if it's effective but I'm really glad they have something happening there.
posted by nat at 5:10 PM on June 18, 2020
"The COVID-19 testing plan (including contact tracing) for [university] is being finalized and will be announced soon".
Wonder what they think soon is. Our fall semester starts in just over 8 weeks. (It also reminds me of language from a prior university I worked at that said "divisions ought to produce a document with a policy for dealing with sexual harassment." No actual policy, just "there ought to be one". Great...)
On the bright side I did also actually find info about the university having an equipment program for affected students -- providing laptops as well as wifi hotspots that can be checked out for home use. I don't know how much it has been used or if it's effective but I'm really glad they have something happening there.
posted by nat at 5:10 PM on June 18, 2020
"I wonder if I will get tenure if I'm the only person in the department left alive by then."
Well, I don't know....some of these publications aren't in top-tier journals
posted by thelonius at 6:08 PM on June 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
Well, I don't know....some of these publications aren't in top-tier journals
posted by thelonius at 6:08 PM on June 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
We have been told that the "clinical skills" course for our medical students is going to be taught online via Zoom. Including the physical exam.
Your future doctors, ladies and gentlemen.
posted by basalganglia at 7:01 PM on June 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
Your future doctors, ladies and gentlemen.
posted by basalganglia at 7:01 PM on June 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
Oh for the good old days when I was saying in this thread that universities wouldn't be up for a fees discount for students... Today the Australian government dropped a bombshell announcement that they are restructuring the fees system for higher education, and in future, humanities and social sciences students (which is what I mainly teach) will have their fees doubled. So that's going to be fun to justify to students and parents. Or, you know, more likely, we won't have any more students (or jobs, or humanities) to worry about.
posted by lollusc at 1:46 AM on June 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by lollusc at 1:46 AM on June 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
We have a similar issue but with 5000 students and only 30,000 locals.
posted by biffa at 4:30 AM on June 19, 2020
posted by biffa at 4:30 AM on June 19, 2020
humanities and social sciences students (which is what I mainly teach) will have their fees doubled.
[grimly and ironically] On behalf of reasonably-priced state universities in the US and the university system of New Zealand, I'd like to offer my sincere thanks to Scott.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:25 AM on June 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
[grimly and ironically] On behalf of reasonably-priced state universities in the US and the university system of New Zealand, I'd like to offer my sincere thanks to Scott.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:25 AM on June 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile because we're still in magical thinking land where most students are coming back and most instruction will be F2F, my institution is pretending like online pedagogy isn't a thing that we should be learning in any kind of uniform fashion. Nothing official, just do what you like. Which then, of course, is how people end up with shitty online courses that allows the school to say, "see? we have to be F2F, look how much everyone hated online courses!"
posted by TwoStride at 6:41 AM on June 19, 2020
posted by TwoStride at 6:41 AM on June 19, 2020
fwiw, if 'lockdown lite' becomes a thing, then study from home (+outdoor activities for social interaction/recess?) might be the norm for awhile...
posted by kliuless at 6:41 AM on June 19, 2020
posted by kliuless at 6:41 AM on June 19, 2020
We have been told that the "clinical skills" course for our medical students is going to be taught online via Zoom. Including the physical exam.
Your future doctors, ladies and gentlemen.
This is also what happened to my partner's nursing school clinicals last semester. Everything went to online only, because it was too much of a risk for the nursing students to be attending in the hospital. It's not entirely clear what they will be doing in the fall, but I think they're aiming to be in-person... but with zero allowance for any absence on a clinical day if you want to pass the semester. That strikes me as really bad for isolation procedure, but what do I know?
I'm really concerned about health care worker attrition as a consequence of COVID, since y'all are most exposed by a long shot, and then how we replenish those health care workers safely with doctors and nurses and other health care workers being trained in, shall we say, not great conditions. The loss of on-the-job training is definitely being felt, but then so is risk management. It's.... a hard situation.
posted by sciatrix at 7:38 AM on June 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Your future doctors, ladies and gentlemen.
This is also what happened to my partner's nursing school clinicals last semester. Everything went to online only, because it was too much of a risk for the nursing students to be attending in the hospital. It's not entirely clear what they will be doing in the fall, but I think they're aiming to be in-person... but with zero allowance for any absence on a clinical day if you want to pass the semester. That strikes me as really bad for isolation procedure, but what do I know?
I'm really concerned about health care worker attrition as a consequence of COVID, since y'all are most exposed by a long shot, and then how we replenish those health care workers safely with doctors and nurses and other health care workers being trained in, shall we say, not great conditions. The loss of on-the-job training is definitely being felt, but then so is risk management. It's.... a hard situation.
posted by sciatrix at 7:38 AM on June 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Education as a product and the student as a customer is one of the more pernicious and nasty things to happen in higher ed. and I sure would like to hear something a little more conceptually-developed than comparing a semester to a pint of beer.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:50 AM on June 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 8:50 AM on June 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Education as a product and the student as a customer is one of the more pernicious and nasty things to happen in higher ed. and I sure would like to hear something a little more conceptually-developed than comparing a semester to a pint of beer.
Its a little late to fall back on moral authority when you have been arguing for an approach that sees the student as fatted calf.
The idea that somehow pivoting a 300-level in-person university course to online is less expensive or time-consuming than in-person would be funny if it weren't apparently also the viewpoint of the bean-counters who capriciously decide what things must cost with little if any attention to what they do cost.
We've got costs, so you have to cover all of them, tough shit that you'll get way less for your money than the same fee covered last year. You're not arguing against students being customers, you're arguing to take them for as much as can be gotten away with.
posted by biffa at 10:47 AM on June 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Its a little late to fall back on moral authority when you have been arguing for an approach that sees the student as fatted calf.
The idea that somehow pivoting a 300-level in-person university course to online is less expensive or time-consuming than in-person would be funny if it weren't apparently also the viewpoint of the bean-counters who capriciously decide what things must cost with little if any attention to what they do cost.
We've got costs, so you have to cover all of them, tough shit that you'll get way less for your money than the same fee covered last year. You're not arguing against students being customers, you're arguing to take them for as much as can be gotten away with.
posted by biffa at 10:47 AM on June 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think it's more a case of "This is what it costs to continue to exist; either we find a way to get that or students won't have the option of attending colleges like ours anymore."
posted by straight at 2:32 PM on June 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by straight at 2:32 PM on June 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
Well if it means anything my wife's school had enrollment numbers go up (and this after several years of decline). Not anticipated but maybe it makes sense that kids would rather go to school than work in covid soup or take a gap year where you can't travel or do anything much in a pandemic world.
posted by srboisvert at 5:01 PM on June 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by srboisvert at 5:01 PM on June 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
Who in a workplace nowadays doesn't come up against a problem and then Google it? Knowing the starting points and how to effectively research solutions is much more useful than exam cramming skills.
I was at Georgia Tech for 2 years and it's reputation as an undergrad meatgrinder (dorms like dungeon ratings, suicide rates nearing MIT, etc etc) was deserved. One thing that I heard not infrequently that employers liked (and from folks in industry later) was that "Georgia Tech grads come out of there knowing how to solve a problem" as opposed to, ya'know, just rote memorize and regurgitate information. It's fair to say, but that knowledge was hard earned to say the least...
I hope other institutions can manage to, remotely and digitally even, teach students to solve problems outside of Googling as well because that way lies stagnation in some ways. It's going to be hard to shift gears for many.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:50 PM on June 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
I was at Georgia Tech for 2 years and it's reputation as an undergrad meatgrinder (dorms like dungeon ratings, suicide rates nearing MIT, etc etc) was deserved. One thing that I heard not infrequently that employers liked (and from folks in industry later) was that "Georgia Tech grads come out of there knowing how to solve a problem" as opposed to, ya'know, just rote memorize and regurgitate information. It's fair to say, but that knowledge was hard earned to say the least...
I hope other institutions can manage to, remotely and digitally even, teach students to solve problems outside of Googling as well because that way lies stagnation in some ways. It's going to be hard to shift gears for many.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:50 PM on June 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
Who in a workplace nowadays doesn't come up against a problem and then Google it? Knowing the starting points and how to effectively research solutions is much more useful than exam cramming skills.
This is going to be industry specific, though. In medicine, if a patient asks me "What are the side effects of this new medicine you recommend for me?" I can't be like "hmm, let me Google that" (or more typically for medicine, let me UpToDate that). Or take a surgeon cutting through layers of flesh; if she nicks an artery, she needs to know how and where to stanch the flow proximally.
Now, those aren't skills I'd expect a first-year medical student to know right off the bat -- there's a reason it takes 10+ years to train a doctor. But I would expect a first-year medical student to know how to take a history and how to do a basic physical exam. A student can google a lot of the science fundamentals, like the Krebs cycle, if they ever need it (they won't) but the actual skills they are paying a quarter-million dollars to learn? Need to be learned by doing, not watching a bunch of pre-recorded Zoom lectures about PQRST on 2x speed. (Or even the other PQRST.) There are plenty of times I can think of when the medical student, because they are fresh to the material and extra-methodical, will uncover something surprising where no one else thought to look.
There's already so much pro-computer, anti-patient bias in medical training. And telemedicine is great in terms of improving access -- for people who live in stable housing with secure, broadband internet -- but it's an advanced skill to be able to (1) establish rapport and (2) understand the strengths and limitations of a virtual visit. (I've made mistakes myself, either overcalling or undercalling things on telemed, and I've been doing this for over a decade!) Trying to teach clinical skills virtually is just hobbling the student, and their future patients. I just don't know how to do it safely in-person.
posted by basalganglia at 8:12 AM on June 23, 2020 [4 favorites]
This is going to be industry specific, though. In medicine, if a patient asks me "What are the side effects of this new medicine you recommend for me?" I can't be like "hmm, let me Google that" (or more typically for medicine, let me UpToDate that). Or take a surgeon cutting through layers of flesh; if she nicks an artery, she needs to know how and where to stanch the flow proximally.
Now, those aren't skills I'd expect a first-year medical student to know right off the bat -- there's a reason it takes 10+ years to train a doctor. But I would expect a first-year medical student to know how to take a history and how to do a basic physical exam. A student can google a lot of the science fundamentals, like the Krebs cycle, if they ever need it (they won't) but the actual skills they are paying a quarter-million dollars to learn? Need to be learned by doing, not watching a bunch of pre-recorded Zoom lectures about PQRST on 2x speed. (Or even the other PQRST.) There are plenty of times I can think of when the medical student, because they are fresh to the material and extra-methodical, will uncover something surprising where no one else thought to look.
There's already so much pro-computer, anti-patient bias in medical training. And telemedicine is great in terms of improving access -- for people who live in stable housing with secure, broadband internet -- but it's an advanced skill to be able to (1) establish rapport and (2) understand the strengths and limitations of a virtual visit. (I've made mistakes myself, either overcalling or undercalling things on telemed, and I've been doing this for over a decade!) Trying to teach clinical skills virtually is just hobbling the student, and their future patients. I just don't know how to do it safely in-person.
posted by basalganglia at 8:12 AM on June 23, 2020 [4 favorites]
I agree, this is heavily dependent on subject. I teach mathematical physics. Our material can be taught at a distance (though it is best if it isn’t just watching lectures— interactive learning is a thing regardless of how it is delivered).
My dad though, he teaches clinical practice. The school he works at is still finalizing their plans for fall, but my Dad basically echoes what basalganglia says: how to do a patient exam just isn’t learnable by watching a video. You can’t learn to do eg a gynecological exam without actually doing them. And you can’t really test if a student has learned how to do such exams via Zoom either.
But on the other hand, how do you keep the students safe— and even more so, the faculty (many of whom are older and thus at-risk), and other people involved (eg model patients who come in both for students to get practice and for students to get evaluated on their skills)?
posted by nat at 5:30 PM on June 23, 2020
My dad though, he teaches clinical practice. The school he works at is still finalizing their plans for fall, but my Dad basically echoes what basalganglia says: how to do a patient exam just isn’t learnable by watching a video. You can’t learn to do eg a gynecological exam without actually doing them. And you can’t really test if a student has learned how to do such exams via Zoom either.
But on the other hand, how do you keep the students safe— and even more so, the faculty (many of whom are older and thus at-risk), and other people involved (eg model patients who come in both for students to get practice and for students to get evaluated on their skills)?
posted by nat at 5:30 PM on June 23, 2020
Another article, from Chronicle of Higher Ed, re: what a range of schools are doing for the fall (and some commentary on what they *should* be building). It's subscription locked, but if you're an academic your institution might have access. Here.
posted by nat at 11:43 AM on June 24, 2020
posted by nat at 11:43 AM on June 24, 2020
Colleges Spend Millions to Prepare to Reopen Amid Coronavirus - "U.S. colleges mapping out plans to reopen their campuses in the fall are embarking on pricey shopping expeditions, sourcing miles of plexiglass, hundreds of thousands of face masks and more."
Why Some State Universities Are Seeing an Influx - "The pandemic is giving a new competitive edge to states that have long seen their top students lured away by elite schools."
posted by kliuless at 11:19 AM on June 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
Why Some State Universities Are Seeing an Influx - "The pandemic is giving a new competitive edge to states that have long seen their top students lured away by elite schools."
posted by kliuless at 11:19 AM on June 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
@jenkinshelen: "If community transmission gets too high in the Fall, the schools will have to close regardless. So by making schools reopening and staying open a priority, a better question is 'how can we keep community transmission low enough that the schools will not need to close?'"
@SarahCohodes: "I'll be tweeting about her job market paper, 'Bricks and Mortar vs. Computers and Modems: The Impacts of Enrollment in K-12 Virtual Schools on Student Outcomes.' Ummm, if there ever was a more timely JMP, I cannot think of it... A picture is worth a 1,000 words. Test scores dive, especially in math, and stay down, when a student enrolls in a virtual school... In short, @Carycruzbueno shows that virtual school is not good for student achievement. I'm sure parents across the U.S. agree."
posted by kliuless at 11:22 PM on June 25, 2020
@SarahCohodes: "I'll be tweeting about her job market paper, 'Bricks and Mortar vs. Computers and Modems: The Impacts of Enrollment in K-12 Virtual Schools on Student Outcomes.' Ummm, if there ever was a more timely JMP, I cannot think of it... A picture is worth a 1,000 words. Test scores dive, especially in math, and stay down, when a student enrolls in a virtual school... In short, @Carycruzbueno shows that virtual school is not good for student achievement. I'm sure parents across the U.S. agree."
posted by kliuless at 11:22 PM on June 25, 2020
As someone currently working on a virtual course in math, though at the college level, I want to add a word to that statement— virtual school, *as it is done now*, is not good for student achievement especially in math.
It’s fixable. One of the troubles though is that many of the people involved in online education (at all levels including college) don’t necessarily have the math background themselves to understand or ameliorate the problems of math education in general, and more specifically don’t have the expertise to build tools to address the problems of math education online. (The people I’m working with are generally excellent and well trained in online ed, but math backgrounds are weak population-wise and this is an issue).
It can be done right. It has not *been* done right, and the students suffer (from K up through college and beyond).
posted by nat at 12:46 PM on June 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
It’s fixable. One of the troubles though is that many of the people involved in online education (at all levels including college) don’t necessarily have the math background themselves to understand or ameliorate the problems of math education in general, and more specifically don’t have the expertise to build tools to address the problems of math education online. (The people I’m working with are generally excellent and well trained in online ed, but math backgrounds are weak population-wise and this is an issue).
It can be done right. It has not *been* done right, and the students suffer (from K up through college and beyond).
posted by nat at 12:46 PM on June 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
I learned about the Mitochondria G. Krebs cycle in high school!
(The G is silent.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:26 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
(The G is silent.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:26 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, via Politico:
Florida Gov. DeSantis just zeroed out funding for all state distance education, including high school and college/university courses. The online services will be shut off at midnight tonight.
posted by darkstar at 2:04 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Florida Gov. DeSantis just zeroed out funding for all state distance education, including high school and college/university courses. The online services will be shut off at midnight tonight.
posted by darkstar at 2:04 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Because cruelty is the point? He has to distract from his backtracking? How do these people live with themselves?
DeSantis, whose office declined to comment on the cut
This...should not be possible.
posted by rhizome at 2:50 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
DeSantis, whose office declined to comment on the cut
This...should not be possible.
posted by rhizome at 2:50 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
The online services will be shut off at midnight tonight.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:06 PM on June 30, 2020
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:06 PM on June 30, 2020
One thing we can do: Write your reps to institute quarantine rules for incoming travelers from high-growth COVID-19 states. Maybe we can't get DeSantis out of office but we can help prevent spread due to his stupidity.
posted by benzenedream at 9:19 PM on June 30, 2020
posted by benzenedream at 9:19 PM on June 30, 2020
benzenedream: some of us live in high-growth COVID-19 states, and our leaders are all assholes.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:56 AM on July 1, 2020
posted by hydropsyche at 7:56 AM on July 1, 2020
I too live in a high growth COVID-19 state, and support other states quarantining travel for us if we don't get it under control. That's not polititcs, that's just reasonable public health practices.
posted by benzenedream at 8:49 AM on July 1, 2020
posted by benzenedream at 8:49 AM on July 1, 2020
Yeah, my institution is located in a high-growth state, and while I am certain that the state legislature would jump at the chance to hassle out-of-state and particularly international students, that's not going to solve any of our problems.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:55 AM on July 1, 2020
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:55 AM on July 1, 2020
International students will be kicked out of the country if they do online learning, says ICE. Well, that ends ALL hopes of online-only. We gotta get that sweet international cash, after all.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
That's a pretty awful response to have to what is clearly a decision motivated by xenophobia and racism. Yes, international students' tuition is important for lots of universities, but universities supporting their international students is not a sweet cash grab, it's actually the only tenable response to a xenophobic decision that really is cruel for the sake of being cruel. Let's not respond by pitting faculty and staff against a frankly pretty vulnerable group of students please.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:12 AM on July 8, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 10:12 AM on July 8, 2020 [6 favorites]
I am not sure that this is actually motivated by xenophobia and racism, although xenophobia and racism are requirements, and I'm sure that the administration is delighted at the prospect of doing xenophobic and racist harm. But it's pretty clearly aimed at coercing institutions to hold in-person classes. It's not an accident that it happened the same day that the president said that he was looking for ways to pressure states to force their K-12 schools to hold classes. They've got an agenda, and the agenda is to force educational institutions to open in the Fall. And it stinks that international students are going to be pawns in that shitty, shitty game.
I think there may be workarounds, which would have to do with offering very limited in-person classes that were only open to international students. Basically, you would show up once a week for your one-credit-hour, socially-distanced "Intro to Some Bullshit Thing that We Made Up to Justify an In-Person Class" class, and then you could take the rest of your classes online like everyone else. I don't love it, but it could work. My hunch is that even if we go all-remote, there will be some very limited exceptions for things like clinicals, and the "Intro to Some Bullshit Thing that We Made Up to Justify an In-Person Class" class could be one of the very limited exceptions.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:18 AM on July 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think there may be workarounds, which would have to do with offering very limited in-person classes that were only open to international students. Basically, you would show up once a week for your one-credit-hour, socially-distanced "Intro to Some Bullshit Thing that We Made Up to Justify an In-Person Class" class, and then you could take the rest of your classes online like everyone else. I don't love it, but it could work. My hunch is that even if we go all-remote, there will be some very limited exceptions for things like clinicals, and the "Intro to Some Bullshit Thing that We Made Up to Justify an In-Person Class" class could be one of the very limited exceptions.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:18 AM on July 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
"Know Your Rights For Visa Holders: Fuck ICE" would be an ideal topic for the in-person class.
posted by benzenedream at 11:24 AM on July 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 11:24 AM on July 8, 2020 [3 favorites]
You can't look at this in a vacuum. There's no way to separate this from all the other immigration-related decisions of the past few months, which are part of a xenophobic campaign to end immigration and asylum in the US. There were other ways the government could have explicitly forced colleges to start up in person in the fall. This way is a win-win: if universities don't open in person, life gets a lot harder for international students and the population will almost certainly go down. If universities do open in person in response to this, I think there will be more openly voiced resentment of international students and less support for them as a class. Workarounds are well and good (though it will require more than just a simple workaround as things have to be certified as contributing to normal degree progress), I don't disagree with lots of what you're saying, ArbitraryAndCapricious, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that international students are the pawns being chosen.
posted by ChuraChura at 2:04 PM on July 8, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 2:04 PM on July 8, 2020 [5 favorites]
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