The Conspiracy Singularity Has Arrived
July 18, 2020 11:28 AM Subscribe
"With the pandemic and a global uprising against racial injustice to be explained away, conspiracy communities are bleeding into each other, merging into one gigantic mass of suspicion." [Anna Merlan, for Vice]
The QAnon theory certainly has a more widespread audience than many previous grand unified conspiracy theories. On Twitter, game designer and writer @adrianhon compares QAnon to an alternate reality game:
This, of course, was written in 1797. Happy 223rd anniversary!
The QAnon theory certainly has a more widespread audience than many previous grand unified conspiracy theories. On Twitter, game designer and writer @adrianhon compares QAnon to an alternate reality game:
Theory: QAnon is popular partly because the act of “researching” it through obscure forums and videos and blog posts, though more time-consuming than watching TV, is actually *more enjoyable* because it’s an active process.Is this a case of everything old is new, though? Mark Jacobson writes in this book excerpt about Behold a Pale Horse, also briefly summarized in the Vice article:
This has always been part of the appeal of conspiracies and the occult, but I feel like QAnon is one of the first to have done this deliberately in a very online, responsive, real-time manner...
Milton William “Bill” Cooper (1943–2001), while largely unknown in the hated mainstream media, was the most important “conspiracy” writer and thinker of his time. Chances are individuals like Alex Jones, QAnon, and even Donald Trump would not have manifested the way they have without the influence of Bill Cooper and his book Behold a Pale Horse, which, 27 years after it was first published in 1991, remains the primer of the new American paranoid canon.Finally, of course, most modern writing about conspiracies and politics has a spiritual debt to pay to Richard Hofstadter's The Paranoid Style in American Politics from 1964. His essay begins by talking about our experience with the Illuminati, starting with a volume titled "Proofs of a Conspiracy Against All the Religions and Governments of Europe, Carried on in the Secret Meetings of Free Masons, Illuminati, and Reading Societies". It detailed how the group was formed for "rooting out all religious establishments, and overturning all the existing governments of Europe", was anti-Christian, and was developing a secret chemical concoction that would cause abortions.
This, of course, was written in 1797. Happy 223rd anniversary!
Though the good news is, we may finally have an answer to the Fermi Paradox.
posted by acb at 11:47 AM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by acb at 11:47 AM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
I suppose I'm behind the curve, being actually shocked upon waking up to this cnn page where the head of the NYPD Union has a Qanon mug in the background of a FOX interview and former national security advisor Michael Flynn's family is reciting a Qanon pledge.
posted by bonobothegreat at 11:48 AM on July 18, 2020 [29 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 11:48 AM on July 18, 2020 [29 favorites]
My friends and I were talking earlier this week about the fact that it feels like internet conspiracies in the 90s were fun nonsense: HAARP controls the weather! Atlantis sank off the coast of Bimini!, but now they're just cesspools of anti-Semitism and rage. I wonder if Behold a Pale Horse just hadn't spread through the various groups back then.
posted by haileris23 at 12:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [26 favorites]
posted by haileris23 at 12:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [26 favorites]
And here I thought calling the boog bois booger boys was creative.
Seriously though, I'm getting a bad feeling about how people are going to react when Q turns out to not be what they think it is. Pizzagate was nowhere near as widespread, yet someone actually showed up with a gun over it despite the obvious outlandishness.
posted by wierdo at 12:43 PM on July 18, 2020
Seriously though, I'm getting a bad feeling about how people are going to react when Q turns out to not be what they think it is. Pizzagate was nowhere near as widespread, yet someone actually showed up with a gun over it despite the obvious outlandishness.
posted by wierdo at 12:43 PM on July 18, 2020
There is a certain delicious irony of a police officer displaying the Qanon mug which was likely a made up meme originally from the utterly wackadoodle 4chan!
posted by sammyo at 12:46 PM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 12:46 PM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
My friends and I were talking earlier this week about the fact that it feels like internet conspiracies in the 90s were fun nonsense
Nothing highlighted this difference quite so starkly to me as the tragic attempt to bring back the X-Files for a couple more seasons in 2018-2019.
posted by mstokes650 at 12:48 PM on July 18, 2020 [44 favorites]
Nothing highlighted this difference quite so starkly to me as the tragic attempt to bring back the X-Files for a couple more seasons in 2018-2019.
posted by mstokes650 at 12:48 PM on July 18, 2020 [44 favorites]
It's the 4chan connection that really blows my mind about how QAnon has spread. This is a conspiracy theory about pedophilias that originated from a web forum infamous for sexualizing underage girls.
Also, it's fascinating how the Epstein scandal, a _legit_ conspiracy where underage girls were trafficed for sexual exploitation by the wealthy and powerful has had a minimal (at best) effect on QAnon.
posted by SansPoint at 12:50 PM on July 18, 2020 [44 favorites]
Also, it's fascinating how the Epstein scandal, a _legit_ conspiracy where underage girls were trafficed for sexual exploitation by the wealthy and powerful has had a minimal (at best) effect on QAnon.
posted by SansPoint at 12:50 PM on July 18, 2020 [44 favorites]
My friends and I were talking earlier this week about the fact that it feels like internet conspiracies in the 90s were fun nonsense
Yeah idk about that, conspiracy theories fueled some of the deadliest right wing violence of the 90s. White supremacist groups thrived and boosted their ranks through conspiracy theories long before the internet, too, e.g. the Aryan Nations and their use of the "ZOG".
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:01 PM on July 18, 2020 [36 favorites]
Yeah idk about that, conspiracy theories fueled some of the deadliest right wing violence of the 90s. White supremacist groups thrived and boosted their ranks through conspiracy theories long before the internet, too, e.g. the Aryan Nations and their use of the "ZOG".
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:01 PM on July 18, 2020 [36 favorites]
I think there are two particularly dangerous wrong ideas when thinking about conspiracy theories:
1) Only your political opponents are prone to believe in them.
2) You'll never end up in a mental state where you get sucked into believing in them.
I have personally seen people go from a detached aesthetic interest in conspiracy theories (UFOs, Illuminatus trilogy, X-Files, etc.) into true believers in basically every conspiracy. Who knows what it takes for this to happen to anyone -- latent mental illness, bad reaction to drugs, just aging?
I wish there were some psychological understanding of what exactly happens in cases like that -- as a layman looking at much of the existing research I find it frustrating.
I find the emotional and psychological motivations convincing -- secret knowledge, good vs. evil, escape from boring unsatisfying life, etc. But I don't think these completely explain the phenomenon.
If you interact with a serious conspiracy theorist, it's obvious their thought process works in a very different and non-rational way, even as they still have the cognitive skills to research and organize great volumes of complex information. I wish this were better investigated -- I think it's very important.
posted by vogon_poet at 1:03 PM on July 18, 2020 [70 favorites]
1) Only your political opponents are prone to believe in them.
2) You'll never end up in a mental state where you get sucked into believing in them.
I have personally seen people go from a detached aesthetic interest in conspiracy theories (UFOs, Illuminatus trilogy, X-Files, etc.) into true believers in basically every conspiracy. Who knows what it takes for this to happen to anyone -- latent mental illness, bad reaction to drugs, just aging?
I wish there were some psychological understanding of what exactly happens in cases like that -- as a layman looking at much of the existing research I find it frustrating.
I find the emotional and psychological motivations convincing -- secret knowledge, good vs. evil, escape from boring unsatisfying life, etc. But I don't think these completely explain the phenomenon.
If you interact with a serious conspiracy theorist, it's obvious their thought process works in a very different and non-rational way, even as they still have the cognitive skills to research and organize great volumes of complex information. I wish this were better investigated -- I think it's very important.
posted by vogon_poet at 1:03 PM on July 18, 2020 [70 favorites]
Seriously though, I'm getting a bad feeling about how people are going to react when Q turns out to not be what they think it is.
It may get even weirder.
Is belief in Q falsifiable?
posted by StarkRoads at 1:03 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
It may get even weirder.
Is belief in Q falsifiable?
posted by StarkRoads at 1:03 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
One thing that gets me about these conspiracies is how parochial they are. Somebody recently posted on an unrelated FB group (about bass guitar) how he figured the pandemic would 'clear up right after the (US) election, wink wink'.
These idiots think that the entire freaking world is in lockdown, tanking their economies and pretending to bury hundreds of thousands of bodies, in order to try to somehow affect the US election? Seriously?
posted by signal at 1:06 PM on July 18, 2020 [62 favorites]
These idiots think that the entire freaking world is in lockdown, tanking their economies and pretending to bury hundreds of thousands of bodies, in order to try to somehow affect the US election? Seriously?
posted by signal at 1:06 PM on July 18, 2020 [62 favorites]
He's probably not remembering that the rest of the world exists, and even if he does, it's not like those people are important.
I think conspiracy theories exploit a certain flaw in human brains. Our brains are pattern recognition engines, and when faced with a lack of a pattern will find one anyway. Even better if that pattern pretends to organize the things that ideologically are opposed to your own beliefs, so you can cast yourself as a warrior in the battle of good vs evil.
posted by axiom at 1:17 PM on July 18, 2020 [28 favorites]
I think conspiracy theories exploit a certain flaw in human brains. Our brains are pattern recognition engines, and when faced with a lack of a pattern will find one anyway. Even better if that pattern pretends to organize the things that ideologically are opposed to your own beliefs, so you can cast yourself as a warrior in the battle of good vs evil.
posted by axiom at 1:17 PM on July 18, 2020 [28 favorites]
Yes people are pattern matching machines, but nobody is making up their own crackpot theories anymore. All the most attractive mindworms are being A/B tested for how fertile they can be when added to some predetermined belief system.
In the 1960s there were a large number of conspiracy theories of all stripes and they all hated each other. Now they have all been corralled to Trump/white power subservience, thanks to the Republicans integrating them into the party fabric.
posted by benzenedream at 1:34 PM on July 18, 2020 [40 favorites]
In the 1960s there were a large number of conspiracy theories of all stripes and they all hated each other. Now they have all been corralled to Trump/white power subservience, thanks to the Republicans integrating them into the party fabric.
posted by benzenedream at 1:34 PM on July 18, 2020 [40 favorites]
in more modern conspiracy theories, “distrust of official narratives may be so strong that many alternative theories are simultaneously endorsed in spite of any contractions between them.”
this seems like an really important point and is why people are so looking for these conspiracies. because govts, corporations, churches, etc have been doing shady stuff forever. who are we to trust honestly?
here's another take on the conspiracies with a little more of that lens: Link
and then also the overall trend of causality/control that we want so much. from both sides even.
god created the world, some secret group is in control, science can fix it/know it, etc.
it seems to be a strong human desire to make sense of things by assuming cause and effect, even scientists who believe in the randomness of evolution seem to want to "design" solutions.
posted by danjo at 1:46 PM on July 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
this seems like an really important point and is why people are so looking for these conspiracies. because govts, corporations, churches, etc have been doing shady stuff forever. who are we to trust honestly?
here's another take on the conspiracies with a little more of that lens: Link
and then also the overall trend of causality/control that we want so much. from both sides even.
god created the world, some secret group is in control, science can fix it/know it, etc.
it seems to be a strong human desire to make sense of things by assuming cause and effect, even scientists who believe in the randomness of evolution seem to want to "design" solutions.
posted by danjo at 1:46 PM on July 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
signal, I heard that one the other day and had the same reaction.
In the 90s I did find conspiracy theories amusing, but I hate them now because people really believe them. I don't understand why so many people choose to believe rumors and hearsay over any actual evidence. The 'research' involved in conspiracy theories is just finding a bunch of youtube videos or blogs with people free associating about patterns. It might be fun to think about the way a video game is fun to play, but then why can't they step away and engage with reality? Because it makes them feel smart and superior somehow? I honestly don't understand.
Early in the pandemic I saw a few doctor friends on my facebook feed valiantly trying to argue with some of their other 'friends' that scientists know more about disease than Fox News Hosts. IDK why they didn't just block these people, I guess they really were trying to stop misinformation? Someone actually wrote, 'No offense doc, but I always get a second opinion' and got a few likes. So who does he get his second opinion from, a random youtuber?
posted by maggiemaggie at 1:48 PM on July 18, 2020 [18 favorites]
In the 90s I did find conspiracy theories amusing, but I hate them now because people really believe them. I don't understand why so many people choose to believe rumors and hearsay over any actual evidence. The 'research' involved in conspiracy theories is just finding a bunch of youtube videos or blogs with people free associating about patterns. It might be fun to think about the way a video game is fun to play, but then why can't they step away and engage with reality? Because it makes them feel smart and superior somehow? I honestly don't understand.
Early in the pandemic I saw a few doctor friends on my facebook feed valiantly trying to argue with some of their other 'friends' that scientists know more about disease than Fox News Hosts. IDK why they didn't just block these people, I guess they really were trying to stop misinformation? Someone actually wrote, 'No offense doc, but I always get a second opinion' and got a few likes. So who does he get his second opinion from, a random youtuber?
posted by maggiemaggie at 1:48 PM on July 18, 2020 [18 favorites]
I guess they really were trying to stop misinformation?
In general, you're not going to change the minds of the hardcore believers. You may, however change the mind of undecided lurkers who at the periphery.
posted by suetanvil at 2:07 PM on July 18, 2020 [14 favorites]
In general, you're not going to change the minds of the hardcore believers. You may, however change the mind of undecided lurkers who at the periphery.
posted by suetanvil at 2:07 PM on July 18, 2020 [14 favorites]
There's some research beyond just the anecdotal that people who believe in one conspiracy theory are much more likely to believe another. Correlations are always tricksy little beasties, of course, but one depressingly compelling interpretation is: belief in one is a kind of cognitive exercise that causes literal functional harm. A kind of stripping of the screw's threads, as strained metaphor.
Unfortunately if that's true, that sheds some light on why things like QAnon forming an ever-growing voltron out of cobbled-together conspiracies has been so distressingly easy for it.
posted by Drastic at 2:10 PM on July 18, 2020 [13 favorites]
Unfortunately if that's true, that sheds some light on why things like QAnon forming an ever-growing voltron out of cobbled-together conspiracies has been so distressingly easy for it.
posted by Drastic at 2:10 PM on July 18, 2020 [13 favorites]
Someone I know - a young-ish, intelligent, activist type I went to grad school with - recently posted on FB that thing about kids being trafficked via expensive cabinet listings on Wayfair, and stood firm when I questioned it, responding that well, Wayfair is "sketchy" and it's sooo suspicious that there's a $10,000 cabinet on Wayfair and it doesn't matter that the rumor originated on the r/conspiracy subreddit because it COULD be true ... then yesterday she posted a thing warning everyone to be careful not to fall for confirmation bias and other logical fallacies, and there seems to be no self-awareness here or anything (and the Wayfair post is still up). I don't really believe in engaging beyond a single pushback comment at most so I'm not getting into it with her, but it really is weird to see how easy it is for people to fall for this shit, even people you would never expect to do so.
posted by DingoMutt at 2:15 PM on July 18, 2020 [21 favorites]
posted by DingoMutt at 2:15 PM on July 18, 2020 [21 favorites]
In elementary school, I liked to come up with my own conspiracy theories. They were very vague, cops-and-robbers sort of games. Part of it, I think, came from the fact that I was a precocious, bored kid who wasn't very interested in school but it was all much more interesting if there was some shadowy ulterior motive in the crappy worksheets we were required to do.
So I think the ARG hypothesis for Qanon makes sense. A lot of people just find it more fun and interesting than the banal crappiness of the corporate/educational/governmental structures people are embedded in. At least vast evil has some panache. It's fundamentally more fun than Wayfair being a kinda crappy online catalog.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:26 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
So I think the ARG hypothesis for Qanon makes sense. A lot of people just find it more fun and interesting than the banal crappiness of the corporate/educational/governmental structures people are embedded in. At least vast evil has some panache. It's fundamentally more fun than Wayfair being a kinda crappy online catalog.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:26 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
It's the 4chan connection that really blows my mind about how QAnon has spread. This is a conspiracy theory about pedophilias that originated from a web forum infamous for sexualizing underage girls.
4chan has strong opinions about sex, but they're weirdly consistent with both "pedophilia is no big deal" and "pedophilia is the worst and most unforgivable sin."
I think the shared point of view is something like "sexual ethics is about who you can humiliate." Bad sex is sex that's humiliating to have. Good sex is sex you can gloat about (and that it's humiliating not to have). But that means that what's good or bad depends on what you're into, who's in the room, and what jokes are landing.
posted by nebulawindphone at 2:31 PM on July 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
4chan has strong opinions about sex, but they're weirdly consistent with both "pedophilia is no big deal" and "pedophilia is the worst and most unforgivable sin."
I think the shared point of view is something like "sexual ethics is about who you can humiliate." Bad sex is sex that's humiliating to have. Good sex is sex you can gloat about (and that it's humiliating not to have). But that means that what's good or bad depends on what you're into, who's in the room, and what jokes are landing.
posted by nebulawindphone at 2:31 PM on July 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
"I wish there were some psychological understanding of what exactly happens in cases like that -- as a layman looking at much of the existing research I find it frustrating.
I find the emotional and psychological motivations convincing -- secret knowledge, good vs. evil, escape from boring unsatisfying life, etc. But I don't think these completely explain the phenomenon."
This this this a million times this! There's other things going on here.
The way I've tried to explain it is with Anti-Vaxxers:
Look, I don't agree with anti-vaxxers, but I'm supremely skeptical of pharmecutical companies and absolutely believe they do things like push drugs out before they've been tested enough because they're more interested in profit than people's health.
The thing is, I think that, deep down, a lot of this crazy bullshit is likely rooted in some very non-crazy bullshit like that. For instance, I am anxious about a COVID vaccine being pushed out too quickly without enough rigorous testing, but that doesn't mean I wholesale reject the idea of a COVID vaccine.
So we live in a society where, for the last 30-40 years, we have been slowly learning all the institutions we have come to depend on have largely been lying to us and feeding us propaganda. While some people can handle that cognitive dissonance of what they've been taught versus the reality, a lot of people simply get lost and start buying into crazy things because they no longer know who to trust. I think Trump is literally an example of this, a wholesale rejection of the political establishment and going with literally "anybody else" because they didn't know who to trust and ended up trusting the biggest con-man alive.
People forget that the Washington Post coined the term "Fake News." Now Fake News is a conspiracy mainstay. I'm a skeptical person. I know I can't trust the Washington Post about Amazon or Bezos because he owns WaPo. I know that the NYT is aimed at rich people in New York, and so is catered to their politics and economics. I understand that they often omit things for the sake of making money or keeping political connections. The NYT sat on the NSA story for over a year at the request of the Bush admin. Plenty of stories have been proven to not be as rigorously researched as they should have been. Including the story in which "Fake News" originated, which in turn helped spur the adoption of that battle cry in the conspiracy community. When we can't properly critique real things that are really happening (journalism affected by the profit motive, meaning journalism isn't 100% truth), there's no way we can talk to these people when their root beliefs are based on this reasonable understanding that yes, the media lies to us constantly for the sake of ratings and money.
I'm not saying it justifies it, but I do think unless we start looking at this issue where the core beliefs bleed into the over-the-top beliefs, we will never be able to speak reason to these people. We have to find a way to short-circuit their minds back to that core belief and to be able to hold an intellectual dialectic of two conflicting ideas: that you can't trust certain groups, but that you kind of have to, and to do so you must use critical thinking at all times. I think that is the position we are all at, where we are able to entertain a thought without believing it and be able to understand the reality of two conflicting ideas. For many people, this is far too abstract for their minds to handle, and they need to literally be hand-held and walked through these ideas very, very slowly. Because their minds truly just cannot handle it and will reject two conflicting ideas rather than try to understand them.
posted by deadaluspark at 2:43 PM on July 18, 2020 [100 favorites]
I find the emotional and psychological motivations convincing -- secret knowledge, good vs. evil, escape from boring unsatisfying life, etc. But I don't think these completely explain the phenomenon."
This this this a million times this! There's other things going on here.
The way I've tried to explain it is with Anti-Vaxxers:
Look, I don't agree with anti-vaxxers, but I'm supremely skeptical of pharmecutical companies and absolutely believe they do things like push drugs out before they've been tested enough because they're more interested in profit than people's health.
The thing is, I think that, deep down, a lot of this crazy bullshit is likely rooted in some very non-crazy bullshit like that. For instance, I am anxious about a COVID vaccine being pushed out too quickly without enough rigorous testing, but that doesn't mean I wholesale reject the idea of a COVID vaccine.
So we live in a society where, for the last 30-40 years, we have been slowly learning all the institutions we have come to depend on have largely been lying to us and feeding us propaganda. While some people can handle that cognitive dissonance of what they've been taught versus the reality, a lot of people simply get lost and start buying into crazy things because they no longer know who to trust. I think Trump is literally an example of this, a wholesale rejection of the political establishment and going with literally "anybody else" because they didn't know who to trust and ended up trusting the biggest con-man alive.
People forget that the Washington Post coined the term "Fake News." Now Fake News is a conspiracy mainstay. I'm a skeptical person. I know I can't trust the Washington Post about Amazon or Bezos because he owns WaPo. I know that the NYT is aimed at rich people in New York, and so is catered to their politics and economics. I understand that they often omit things for the sake of making money or keeping political connections. The NYT sat on the NSA story for over a year at the request of the Bush admin. Plenty of stories have been proven to not be as rigorously researched as they should have been. Including the story in which "Fake News" originated, which in turn helped spur the adoption of that battle cry in the conspiracy community. When we can't properly critique real things that are really happening (journalism affected by the profit motive, meaning journalism isn't 100% truth), there's no way we can talk to these people when their root beliefs are based on this reasonable understanding that yes, the media lies to us constantly for the sake of ratings and money.
I'm not saying it justifies it, but I do think unless we start looking at this issue where the core beliefs bleed into the over-the-top beliefs, we will never be able to speak reason to these people. We have to find a way to short-circuit their minds back to that core belief and to be able to hold an intellectual dialectic of two conflicting ideas: that you can't trust certain groups, but that you kind of have to, and to do so you must use critical thinking at all times. I think that is the position we are all at, where we are able to entertain a thought without believing it and be able to understand the reality of two conflicting ideas. For many people, this is far too abstract for their minds to handle, and they need to literally be hand-held and walked through these ideas very, very slowly. Because their minds truly just cannot handle it and will reject two conflicting ideas rather than try to understand them.
posted by deadaluspark at 2:43 PM on July 18, 2020 [100 favorites]
So I think the ARG hypothesis for Qanon makes sense
I think that this is a good lens to see Facebook through, and the reason they have so little interest in managing fake news or propaganda exercises on their platform. Facebook isn’t really a social network, it’s an uncontrolled, participatory ARG platform. Antisemitism, antivax, violent antifa, Q-Anon, whatever. Doesn’t matter, as long as the seed crystal takes. As long as people who haven’t figured out that you can’t trust every hit of dopamine the internet shims into their hindbrains keep clicking on shit.
posted by mhoye at 2:46 PM on July 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
I think that this is a good lens to see Facebook through, and the reason they have so little interest in managing fake news or propaganda exercises on their platform. Facebook isn’t really a social network, it’s an uncontrolled, participatory ARG platform. Antisemitism, antivax, violent antifa, Q-Anon, whatever. Doesn’t matter, as long as the seed crystal takes. As long as people who haven’t figured out that you can’t trust every hit of dopamine the internet shims into their hindbrains keep clicking on shit.
posted by mhoye at 2:46 PM on July 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
We have to find a way to short-circuit their minds
You're not wrong, but the phrasing is ironic.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 2:49 PM on July 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
You're not wrong, but the phrasing is ironic.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 2:49 PM on July 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
4chan has strong opinions about sex
e.g. what it might actually be like
posted by Cardinal Fang at 2:53 PM on July 18, 2020 [41 favorites]
e.g. what it might actually be like
posted by Cardinal Fang at 2:53 PM on July 18, 2020 [41 favorites]
Needs a "reverse vampires" tag.
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:55 PM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:55 PM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
Just to make clear, the dialectic of two conflicting ideas I would be referring to would be something like "Yes, the media lies to us and is invested in profit, but for the most part mainstream news sources like NYT and WaPo are generally trustworthy, and I just need to be skeptical and think critically when I read articles from them."
posted by deadaluspark at 3:05 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by deadaluspark at 3:05 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
So we live in a society where, for the last 30-40 years, we have been slowly learning all the institutions we have come to depend on have largely been lying to us and feeding us propaganda. While some people can handle that cognitive dissonance of what they've been taught versus the reality, a lot of people simply get lost and start buying into crazy things because they no longer know who to trust. I think Trump is literally an example of this, a wholesale rejection of the political establishment and going with literally "anybody else" because they didn't know who to trust and ended up trusting the biggest con-man alive.
This gives them too much credit. Trump is president because white people can't handle that white people aren't the top of an assumed society wide consensus of imaginary, racial, and social strata. White men are basically pissed that they can't say "watchu looking at boy?" to a black kid and have society at large fear and respect them. Instead they're denigrated and ostracized for their racism and they can't handle that. They don't have the self awareness to figure out everyone considers them the worlds biggest assholes or anything. Instead they just blame "the Jews".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:10 PM on July 18, 2020 [57 favorites]
This gives them too much credit. Trump is president because white people can't handle that white people aren't the top of an assumed society wide consensus of imaginary, racial, and social strata. White men are basically pissed that they can't say "watchu looking at boy?" to a black kid and have society at large fear and respect them. Instead they're denigrated and ostracized for their racism and they can't handle that. They don't have the self awareness to figure out everyone considers them the worlds biggest assholes or anything. Instead they just blame "the Jews".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:10 PM on July 18, 2020 [57 favorites]
Like representation in media for instance. Representation matters for people who don't often get represented. White men cry and get absolutely fucking paranoid about not being represented as 100% of the agency in any sort of media. Like if a movie passes the Bechdel Test at any point, we have a fucking conspiracy of black liberal feminists taking over the media with the help of, again, "the Jews".
I believe the phrase "When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression" applies here more than ever.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [28 favorites]
I believe the phrase "When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression" applies here more than ever.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [28 favorites]
I have two HS classmates I am friends with on Facebook who haven't met a conspiracy theory they wouldn't latch onto. The stuff they post is laughable. One has retreated to the mountains of Virginia and sleeps in a faraday cage to protect himself electromagnetism and 5G. He actually trolls closed school yards to monitor maintenance vehicles and notes those who he believes are installing 5G instead of cleaning or doing maintenance work. The both "know" stuff they're sure you're not ready to hear. They are getting ready to reveal their "research". I can't wait.
posted by AJScease at 3:18 PM on July 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by AJScease at 3:18 PM on July 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
This gives them too much credit. Trump is president because white people can't handle that white people aren't the top of an assumed society wide consensus of imaginary, racial, social strata.
Okay, I guess I wasn't specifically referring to the massive amount of obvious racists in the conspiracy world, forgive me. I am speaking to a different subset, which, though smaller, I think absolutely exists, and are some of the people who may not have initially had deeply held racist beliefs but get sucked into these systems and then get turned into a racist. I'm talking about them. If you had parents who were racist shitheads and were in a city full of racist shitheads who all taught you to be a racist all your life, sure, I agree, those people all love Trump for entirely different reasons. But they're also trying to get the vulnerable people to join them, and considering how much those simple minded people struggle with big ideas, I think it's unfair to ignore.
Look I care about this a lot because my very-long-term partner is a very non-educated person with mental health issues. She is very sweet, loving, and simple. Sadly, she can be easy to manipulate, especially since she struggles with social situations as well, and just wants to be liked. She struggles with bigger ideas, but if you walk her through them, she will get them. There's been a hundred times or more that she nearly got sucked into something horrible in the time we have been together. She is a very good person who just wants other people to feel good. But because she is very impressionable and struggles with big concepts she can be easy to manipulate and as someone who loves the living hell out of her there is nothing scarier than the idea of these people getting their fingers into her. It's why I try to take a lot of time to talk to her about wild ideas like that that she encounters and explain the darkness behind them and how they're trying to hook her. She's grown a lot, thankfully, and learned more, but it's taken time, and its taken someone being willing to teach.
These people exist and need help and to be dismissive of them is to be dismissive of their very lives. People aren't born racists, they're made, and yes shitty white men are deliberately pushing it.
posted by deadaluspark at 3:19 PM on July 18, 2020 [26 favorites]
The thing is, I think that, deep down, a lot of this crazy bullshit is likely rooted in some very non-crazy bullshit like that.... we have been slowly learning all the institutions we have come to depend on have largely been lying to us and feeding us propaganda .... a lot of people simply get lost and start buying into crazy things
Yes, and it often seems like once that initial trust is broached w/r/t any sort of "official story," the floodgates open so completely that many people go to the most extreme contrasting belief possible. For example, something like Ancient Aliens: modern scientists can't figure out how the Egyptians built the pyramids, so the logical alternative explanation is Aliens. I mean, why the hell would you go all the way to freakin' aliens as an explanation? There's light-years of missing evidence between the question and that answer. Whenever I've had a conversation with someone who believes in a conspiracy theory of some sort, and I push back on something like that, the response is always something like, "Well, how do YOU explain it then? Can you prove it WASN'T aliens?" And I say, "Well, I don't know how the Egyptians made the pyramids, it must be some technique that's been lost, and maybe we'll never know," but I think people just can't deal with ambiguity. They need definitive answers, and the rewarding thing about conspiracy theories, like fan fiction and fan movie theories, are that they reshape the world according to your beliefs and desires.
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:21 PM on July 18, 2020 [18 favorites]
Yes, and it often seems like once that initial trust is broached w/r/t any sort of "official story," the floodgates open so completely that many people go to the most extreme contrasting belief possible. For example, something like Ancient Aliens: modern scientists can't figure out how the Egyptians built the pyramids, so the logical alternative explanation is Aliens. I mean, why the hell would you go all the way to freakin' aliens as an explanation? There's light-years of missing evidence between the question and that answer. Whenever I've had a conversation with someone who believes in a conspiracy theory of some sort, and I push back on something like that, the response is always something like, "Well, how do YOU explain it then? Can you prove it WASN'T aliens?" And I say, "Well, I don't know how the Egyptians made the pyramids, it must be some technique that's been lost, and maybe we'll never know," but I think people just can't deal with ambiguity. They need definitive answers, and the rewarding thing about conspiracy theories, like fan fiction and fan movie theories, are that they reshape the world according to your beliefs and desires.
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:21 PM on July 18, 2020 [18 favorites]
So there was a TTRPG in the 90s that drew on real world conspiracy theories for its structure. It didn’t really do well, for a bunch of reasons, but are used to participate in a mailing list that had to migrate recently. There was a flurry of activity, and I said that, looking back on it 25 years later, the thing I had a problem with was the closeness to antisemitism, and I got pushback from people who just didn’t believe it. They were like “I’ve read the Illuminatus trilogy, why are you a hater?” I just gave up.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:58 PM on July 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:58 PM on July 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
I always liked Jordan from Knowledge Fight's version of this insight: That all these goofy conspiracy theories were just disguises to get the Protocols of the Elders of Zion down people's throats.
You know, P.E.Z. dispensers.
posted by Scattercat at 4:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [27 favorites]
You know, P.E.Z. dispensers.
posted by Scattercat at 4:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [27 favorites]
Sorry, I wasn’t bragging that I’m some kind of ally; I was just shocked how resistant people were to some thing which is incredibly fucking obvious if you just do a little reading. I am not even hard reading. Will Eisner’s The Plot: The Secret Story of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a very readable graphic novel about the insidious persistence of a nasty meme. Or you could try Philosophy Tube’s Antisemitism: anAnalysis. It’s easy!
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
Absurdity seems like a tonic against conspiracy mania. When you center the idea that there is no inherent meaning in the universe, it kinda takes the piss out of great big coordinated efforts happening in total secrecy.
posted by ergomatic at 5:00 PM on July 18, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by ergomatic at 5:00 PM on July 18, 2020 [9 favorites]
"Soon be livin' in a brand-new state!
Brand-new state
Gonna treat you great!
Gonna give you barley,
Carrots and pertaters
Pasture fer the cattle
Spinach and termayters!
Flowers on the prairie where the June bugs zoom
Plen'y of air and plen'y of room
Plen'y of room to swing a rope,
Plen'y of heart and plen'y of hope.
Correlation.....
Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain"
posted by clavdivs at 5:04 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
Brand-new state
Gonna treat you great!
Gonna give you barley,
Carrots and pertaters
Pasture fer the cattle
Spinach and termayters!
Flowers on the prairie where the June bugs zoom
Plen'y of air and plen'y of room
Plen'y of room to swing a rope,
Plen'y of heart and plen'y of hope.
Correlation.....
Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain"
posted by clavdivs at 5:04 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
Absurdity seems like a tonic against conspiracy mania. When you center the idea that there is no inherent meaning in the universe, it kinda takes the piss out of great big coordinated efforts happening in total secrecy.
Oh most definitely. Another thing that takes the piss out of that idea is generational memory and how quickly we forget things from beyond a few generations back. Like, even if, as many posited at the time, groups like the Ford Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation were created with the intent to influence American education with the purpose of accepting and supporting a socialist worldwide government, that plan has so miserably come to pass that our entire nation hates the ideas of socialism and communism possibly more vociferously than ever. The people running those foundations now certainly don't know the minds of the founders and certainly are running things their own way in the modern era, completely disconnected from any influence of the original ideas. So how is it even a conspiracy, then? Some failed nitwits plan isn't a conspiracy when it's been forgotten by time.
Like how the fuck can conspiracies actually persist through generations? Not everyone in the family is the same, not everyone finds the same beliefs or understanding of the world. I mean look at Mary Trump. The whole thing is a joke and conspiracies are like self defeating prophecies in that way. It's not and could never be that coordinated, especially not over generations.
posted by deadaluspark at 5:13 PM on July 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
Oh most definitely. Another thing that takes the piss out of that idea is generational memory and how quickly we forget things from beyond a few generations back. Like, even if, as many posited at the time, groups like the Ford Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation were created with the intent to influence American education with the purpose of accepting and supporting a socialist worldwide government, that plan has so miserably come to pass that our entire nation hates the ideas of socialism and communism possibly more vociferously than ever. The people running those foundations now certainly don't know the minds of the founders and certainly are running things their own way in the modern era, completely disconnected from any influence of the original ideas. So how is it even a conspiracy, then? Some failed nitwits plan isn't a conspiracy when it's been forgotten by time.
Like how the fuck can conspiracies actually persist through generations? Not everyone in the family is the same, not everyone finds the same beliefs or understanding of the world. I mean look at Mary Trump. The whole thing is a joke and conspiracies are like self defeating prophecies in that way. It's not and could never be that coordinated, especially not over generations.
posted by deadaluspark at 5:13 PM on July 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
Growing up, I loved weird stuff like The Invisibles, Illuminatus!, Incunabula (Joseph Matheny or someone else involved in the creation of this wrote a thing last year or so about regretting it because it sort of opened the door for QAnon; I can't find it on quick googling, but it's worth reading), Ong's Hat, John Titor, Mel's hole, Skinwalker Ranch, Mothman, Montauk, etc. There were lots of weird, interesting, fun and creative collective mythmakings in conspiracy/paranormal circles. Some of it's likely to be military/government disinformation like that classic CIA paper that incorporated Itzhak Bentov and Robert Monroe's ideas or the more recent thing with the US Navy's physics-defying technology patents (prev.), but most of it was just people being strange and fascinating. There were always ugly things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that were either overtly antisemitic or gateways into antisemitism, so it's not as if conspiracy subculture was ever free of bigotry but there were strains more focused on psychedelics, consciousness and mysticism that are largely either gone now or act as fronts for hate groups like so many other things on the modern web. It's a sad end to come to this point.
All of which is to say two and a half things:
1) QAnon scares me. Their devotion to self-contradictory ideas and resilience to...facts and reality is a frightening combination, moreso that many of these people are in positions of power. I find it compellingly nightmarish how Pizzagate is such an important component of the subculture, and yet everything connected to Epstein is white noise to them. The projection is unnerving.
1.5) I reread the Interface series recently. The timing of a creepy "fun" internet conspiracy centered around the rise of something called "Q" that compels people to join a metastasizing movement via the internet and along with various other factors leads to near-term human extinction happening right before the election of Trump was so disquieting in retrospect. Our reality is totally a malfunctioning simulation.
2) The Rentals' new album is relevant and really good.
posted by Lonnrot at 5:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [28 favorites]
All of which is to say two and a half things:
1) QAnon scares me. Their devotion to self-contradictory ideas and resilience to...facts and reality is a frightening combination, moreso that many of these people are in positions of power. I find it compellingly nightmarish how Pizzagate is such an important component of the subculture, and yet everything connected to Epstein is white noise to them. The projection is unnerving.
1.5) I reread the Interface series recently. The timing of a creepy "fun" internet conspiracy centered around the rise of something called "Q" that compels people to join a metastasizing movement via the internet and along with various other factors leads to near-term human extinction happening right before the election of Trump was so disquieting in retrospect. Our reality is totally a malfunctioning simulation.
2) The Rentals' new album is relevant and really good.
posted by Lonnrot at 5:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [28 favorites]
Or, put more succinctly: if Deoxy.org were still around, they would have a subsection dedicated to Jordan Peterson. The worst parts of conspiracy subculture have triumphed and the best parts are all but dead. I would like to be able to separate out all the bits that stimulated my imagination from all the bits that helped hate groups grow but it's too late and that damage is done.
posted by Lonnrot at 5:31 PM on July 18, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by Lonnrot at 5:31 PM on July 18, 2020 [14 favorites]
I think people just can't deal with ambiguity
Very much so. Just as it's natural to look for patterns, it's also natural to look for explanations. Unfortunately many don't seem to care if it's the correct explanation or not, they just can't seem to handle uncertainty or nuance. It would also be wonderful if the concept of extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence meant something to them.
I am not sure how to handle this personally anymore. So many people around me, dear family members, are deep in this shit while we have Portland going on and I don't even know how to relate to them anymore. Besides just being in a different world, there is the moral dimension of supporting the horror that is going on, the utter irresponsibility of spending your time promoting an elaborate unreality while the world burns, the sheer stupidity that makes me not trust them on anything again. Everyone is an expert now so you can't argue with them, they've got a dome that just distorts and bounces everything back.
As daedaluspark says, there are kernels of truth behind some of the conspiracy theories that need to be admitted, but they've mutated so wildly that this is a moment of collective madness.
posted by blue shadows at 5:37 PM on July 18, 2020 [8 favorites]
Very much so. Just as it's natural to look for patterns, it's also natural to look for explanations. Unfortunately many don't seem to care if it's the correct explanation or not, they just can't seem to handle uncertainty or nuance. It would also be wonderful if the concept of extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence meant something to them.
I am not sure how to handle this personally anymore. So many people around me, dear family members, are deep in this shit while we have Portland going on and I don't even know how to relate to them anymore. Besides just being in a different world, there is the moral dimension of supporting the horror that is going on, the utter irresponsibility of spending your time promoting an elaborate unreality while the world burns, the sheer stupidity that makes me not trust them on anything again. Everyone is an expert now so you can't argue with them, they've got a dome that just distorts and bounces everything back.
As daedaluspark says, there are kernels of truth behind some of the conspiracy theories that need to be admitted, but they've mutated so wildly that this is a moment of collective madness.
posted by blue shadows at 5:37 PM on July 18, 2020 [8 favorites]
People forget that the Washington Post coined the term "Fake News."
I bet a lot of people have forgotten that because it never happened...
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:50 PM on July 18, 2020 [8 favorites]
I bet a lot of people have forgotten that because it never happened...
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:50 PM on July 18, 2020 [8 favorites]
This conspiracy nonsense mayhem is just a side effect of the Internet. Humanity will outgrow it.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:15 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:15 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
How Kremlin-backed yarns help keep Vladimir Putin in power
I remember reading anecdotes about Russians being really into tabloids after the fall of the USSR.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:22 PM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
I remember reading anecdotes about Russians being really into tabloids after the fall of the USSR.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:22 PM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
This conspiracy nonsense mayhem is just a side effect of the Internet. Humanity will outgrow it.
First part seems very correct to me; I'm not so sure about the second.
I think young, internet-literate people, for instance, are just as prone to getting sucked into really implausible conspiracy theories. Look at the "Wayfair human trafficking" thing from a couple weeks ago. Or apparently pizzagate is getting a second wave of interest on TikTok.
It just seems like the problem is some kind of basic failure of reasonable thinking. It seems to me that it should be possible for any person with normal mental faculties to tell pretty easily that conspiracy theories don't make any sense. I have a total failure of empathy here -- I just can't understand what's going through the heads of people who could believe in them.
(Old-school conspiracies like JFK or UFOs have some internal logic and make arguments from evidence, such that you could imagine someone who was simply misinformed believing in them. But this is less and less prevalent nowadays -- Qanon or the Wayfair thing just don't make any sense to me.)
I'm not looking for an external explanation of what in our society gives rise to people who believe these things -- I want to know what's actually going on in those people's heads. Explanations such as "racism", "feeling of powerlessness", "desire for community" are not very satisfying to me, because lots of people have those exact same traits yet remain totally capable of seeing right through conspiracy theories.
Maybe people will suddenly start caring about whether they are right or wrong about the world, or just get bored of believing in obvious bullshit. Or maybe when conspiratorial thinking is widespread enough that almost everyone knows someone caught up in it (we are getting to this point), we will be able to talk about it and describe it more clearly, and that conceptual machinery could help inoculate against it. That's the only way we grow out of it, I think.
posted by vogon_poet at 7:47 PM on July 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
First part seems very correct to me; I'm not so sure about the second.
I think young, internet-literate people, for instance, are just as prone to getting sucked into really implausible conspiracy theories. Look at the "Wayfair human trafficking" thing from a couple weeks ago. Or apparently pizzagate is getting a second wave of interest on TikTok.
It just seems like the problem is some kind of basic failure of reasonable thinking. It seems to me that it should be possible for any person with normal mental faculties to tell pretty easily that conspiracy theories don't make any sense. I have a total failure of empathy here -- I just can't understand what's going through the heads of people who could believe in them.
(Old-school conspiracies like JFK or UFOs have some internal logic and make arguments from evidence, such that you could imagine someone who was simply misinformed believing in them. But this is less and less prevalent nowadays -- Qanon or the Wayfair thing just don't make any sense to me.)
I'm not looking for an external explanation of what in our society gives rise to people who believe these things -- I want to know what's actually going on in those people's heads. Explanations such as "racism", "feeling of powerlessness", "desire for community" are not very satisfying to me, because lots of people have those exact same traits yet remain totally capable of seeing right through conspiracy theories.
Maybe people will suddenly start caring about whether they are right or wrong about the world, or just get bored of believing in obvious bullshit. Or maybe when conspiratorial thinking is widespread enough that almost everyone knows someone caught up in it (we are getting to this point), we will be able to talk about it and describe it more clearly, and that conceptual machinery could help inoculate against it. That's the only way we grow out of it, I think.
posted by vogon_poet at 7:47 PM on July 18, 2020 [11 favorites]
The other thing that helps inoculate you to conspiracy theories is seeing a real government conspiracy operate, as I was fortunate enough to. When you see how petty and uncoordinated they tend to be in reality, it is hard to believe any of the more exotic, anti-Semitic flavours. Like, none of the pizza parlour employees talked? They have nothing to gain. (My favourite variant on this is how the USSR had to be in on the moon landing conspiracy, which raises the question of what the point of the whole exercise even was.)
I think Fred Clark has a powerful insight: this is roleplaying. This is people making their world more exciting by deliberately choosing to believe things they acknowledge aren’t true, so that they can imagine themselves as heroes, who are morally righteous, who know what’s really going on, who are nobody’s fool. The sinister bit is that a lot of these alternate universes require them to believe terrible things about humanity. The tell, he says, is how they react when told the terrible thing they believe can’t be true. Are they relieved? Or are they offended?
posted by Merus at 7:47 PM on July 18, 2020 [36 favorites]
I think Fred Clark has a powerful insight: this is roleplaying. This is people making their world more exciting by deliberately choosing to believe things they acknowledge aren’t true, so that they can imagine themselves as heroes, who are morally righteous, who know what’s really going on, who are nobody’s fool. The sinister bit is that a lot of these alternate universes require them to believe terrible things about humanity. The tell, he says, is how they react when told the terrible thing they believe can’t be true. Are they relieved? Or are they offended?
posted by Merus at 7:47 PM on July 18, 2020 [36 favorites]
I think role playing a hero is a strong factor, for sure, as is "secret knowledge". And it could drive motivated reasoning which might help people ignore some implausibilities in their conspiracy theory.
But I don't think it's enough of an explanation -- after a certain point the conspiracies just... don't make any sense. They get really baroque (look at the Qanon chart!).
If it were purely racism, desire for heroic narrative, desire for community, etc. driving conspiratorial thinking, I would expect the conspiracies to be outlandish in the things they claim but a lot simpler in their structure.
posted by vogon_poet at 8:01 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
But I don't think it's enough of an explanation -- after a certain point the conspiracies just... don't make any sense. They get really baroque (look at the Qanon chart!).
If it were purely racism, desire for heroic narrative, desire for community, etc. driving conspiratorial thinking, I would expect the conspiracies to be outlandish in the things they claim but a lot simpler in their structure.
posted by vogon_poet at 8:01 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
Washington Post Disgracefully Promotes a McCarthyite Blacklist From a New, Hidden, and Very Shady Group
posted by deadaluspark at 8:01 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by deadaluspark at 8:01 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
Deadaluspark, my comment was regarding your claim that “People forget that the Washington Post coined the term "Fake News."
They didn’t. What am I missing??
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:09 PM on July 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
They didn’t. What am I missing??
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:09 PM on July 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
The term actually dates from the late 19th century, when it was used by newspapers and magazines to boast about their own journalistic standards and attack those of their rivals. In 1895, for example, Electricity: A Popular Electrical Journal bragged that “we never copy fake news,” while in 1896 a writer at one San Jose, California, paper excoriated the publisher of another: “It is his habit to indulge in fake news. ... [H]e will make up news when he fails to find it.” From here.
The BBC also talks about it and says BuzzFeed started the modern usage, but it was really Trump who popularized it.
Sorry for the derail, and also sorry to myself for bothering to look up something so unimportant.
posted by Literaryhero at 8:17 PM on July 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
The BBC also talks about it and says BuzzFeed started the modern usage, but it was really Trump who popularized it.
Sorry for the derail, and also sorry to myself for bothering to look up something so unimportant.
posted by Literaryhero at 8:17 PM on July 18, 2020 [4 favorites]
Like, even if, as many posited at the time, groups like the Ford Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation were created with the intent to influence American education with the purpose of accepting and supporting a socialist worldwide government, that plan has so miserably come to pass that our entire nation hates the ideas of socialism and communism possibly more vociferously than ever. The people running those foundations now certainly don't know the minds of the founders and certainly are running things their own way in the modern era, completely disconnected from any influence of the original ideas. So how is it even a conspiracy, then? Some failed nitwits plan isn't a conspiracy when it's been forgotten by time.
The core contradiction at the heart of almost every conspiracy theory is that it requires you to believe that a group of people is simultaneously both terrifyingly effective and mind-bogglingly incompetent. This is an ideal characteristic in fictional villains, especially for recurring villains in long-running fictional works, because you want the villains to be very scary but also ultimately pretty ineffective (for example: every bad guy in every 80s kids cartoon). It is a lot harder to justify as a thing that actually exists in the real world, at least not without a massive dose of cognitive dissonance.
posted by mstokes650 at 8:28 PM on July 18, 2020 [12 favorites]
The core contradiction at the heart of almost every conspiracy theory is that it requires you to believe that a group of people is simultaneously both terrifyingly effective and mind-bogglingly incompetent. This is an ideal characteristic in fictional villains, especially for recurring villains in long-running fictional works, because you want the villains to be very scary but also ultimately pretty ineffective (for example: every bad guy in every 80s kids cartoon). It is a lot harder to justify as a thing that actually exists in the real world, at least not without a massive dose of cognitive dissonance.
posted by mstokes650 at 8:28 PM on July 18, 2020 [12 favorites]
So Q is Snidely Whiplash, but if you look closely you find that he's three little 4Chan kids in a long overcoat and a cardboard Snidely party mask.
posted by flabdablet at 8:40 PM on July 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:40 PM on July 18, 2020 [10 favorites]
Some relevant reading, both by Jodi Dean:
...
Publicity’s Secret: How Technoculture Capitalizes on Democracy
AND
Aliens in America: Conspiracy Cultures from Outerspace to Cyberspace
posted by LMGM at 8:50 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
...
Publicity’s Secret: How Technoculture Capitalizes on Democracy
AND
Aliens in America: Conspiracy Cultures from Outerspace to Cyberspace
posted by LMGM at 8:50 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
"My gut is that most conspiracy theorists have never been project managers.
Their optimism is adorable." - Merlin Mann
posted by SansPoint at 9:05 PM on July 18, 2020 [39 favorites]
Their optimism is adorable." - Merlin Mann
posted by SansPoint at 9:05 PM on July 18, 2020 [39 favorites]
I'm reminded of Melissa Scott's novel The Jazz, where creating misinformation has become an artform and a business.
posted by gryftir at 9:28 PM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by gryftir at 9:28 PM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
This conspiracy nonsense mayhem is just a side effect of the Internet. Humanity will outgrow it.
Well, anti-semitic conspiracies aren't exactly a new thing, so I hope that we get moving on this whole human growth thing pretty quick.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:59 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
Well, anti-semitic conspiracies aren't exactly a new thing, so I hope that we get moving on this whole human growth thing pretty quick.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:59 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
I haven't read it, so I can't comment on the quality of the book, but there is something about a white author using the term "jazz" to describe futuristic disinformation that rubs me the wrong way...
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:01 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:01 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
But really, isn't there a term for disinformation campaigns meant to work against...signal fatigue? Flood the system with not only a vast quantity of messages, but all of different, even conflicting, against your own side types? The goal being to trigger the 'I don't know WHAT to believe anymore' reaction? It's not stochastic terrorism, but it's close.
posted by bartleby at 11:05 PM on July 18, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by bartleby at 11:05 PM on July 18, 2020 [16 favorites]
Politics as a Theater of Confusion, aka the Surkov Special.
posted by mannequito at 11:31 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by mannequito at 11:31 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
I have personally seen people go from a detached aesthetic interest in conspiracy theories (UFOs, Illuminatus trilogy, X-Files, etc.) into true believers in basically every conspiracy. [...]
I find the emotional and psychological motivations convincing -- secret knowledge, good vs. evil, escape from boring unsatisfying life, etc. But I don't think these completely explain the phenomenon.
Not equating magic(k) with conspiracy theories, but have you read Tanya Luhrmann's Persuasions of the Witch's Craft? She's an anthropologist who describes the process of coming to believe in magic in a way that made me feel like I get it.
There are the social aspects that people often highlight -- belonging by belief, social construction of what seems reasonable -- and those are real. But enabling that, there's a cognitive process by which people slide more easily than they expect from "talking as if this is true" to "this is true". Our internal 'bracketing' apparatus is leaky, and we have a blind spot to the leakiness.
(Sometimes ironic racist jokes are a way of peeking the existing bigotry out of the mask. But I think sometimes they actually breed more active bigotry on the typical white supremacist substrate.)
If you interact with a serious conspiracy theorist, it's obvious their thought process works in a very different and non-rational way, even as they still have the cognitive skills to research and organize great volumes of complex information.
Without being an epistemological nihilist, I suggest the difference is less in the process itself than in how it's positioned. We all make a whole lot more insufficiently-justified mental shortcuts than we think we do. Some of us happen to have them lined up to result in accurate conclusions against reality. Some of us have been trained or convinced to a different alignment.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:41 PM on July 18, 2020 [14 favorites]
I find the emotional and psychological motivations convincing -- secret knowledge, good vs. evil, escape from boring unsatisfying life, etc. But I don't think these completely explain the phenomenon.
Not equating magic(k) with conspiracy theories, but have you read Tanya Luhrmann's Persuasions of the Witch's Craft? She's an anthropologist who describes the process of coming to believe in magic in a way that made me feel like I get it.
There are the social aspects that people often highlight -- belonging by belief, social construction of what seems reasonable -- and those are real. But enabling that, there's a cognitive process by which people slide more easily than they expect from "talking as if this is true" to "this is true". Our internal 'bracketing' apparatus is leaky, and we have a blind spot to the leakiness.
(Sometimes ironic racist jokes are a way of peeking the existing bigotry out of the mask. But I think sometimes they actually breed more active bigotry on the typical white supremacist substrate.)
If you interact with a serious conspiracy theorist, it's obvious their thought process works in a very different and non-rational way, even as they still have the cognitive skills to research and organize great volumes of complex information.
Without being an epistemological nihilist, I suggest the difference is less in the process itself than in how it's positioned. We all make a whole lot more insufficiently-justified mental shortcuts than we think we do. Some of us happen to have them lined up to result in accurate conclusions against reality. Some of us have been trained or convinced to a different alignment.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:41 PM on July 18, 2020 [14 favorites]
aka the Bannon "flood the zone with shit"
posted by away for regrooving at 11:42 PM on July 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by away for regrooving at 11:42 PM on July 18, 2020 [5 favorites]
I presume 'stochastic terrorism' is meant as an allusion to stochastic resonance, bartleby?
posted by jamjam at 11:44 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
Stochastic resonance (SR) is a phenomenon where a signal that is normally too weak to be detected by a sensor, can be boosted by adding white noise to the signal, which contains a wide spectrum of frequencies. The frequencies in the white noise corresponding to the original signal's frequencies will resonate with each other, amplifying the original signal while not amplifying the rest of the white noise (thereby increasing the signal-to-noise ratio which makes the original signal more prominent). Further, the added white noise can be enough to be detectable by the sensor, which can then filter it out to effectively detect the original, previously undetectable signal.That's a very nice way of looking things, in my opinion; a bunch of random confusing nonsense which would ordinarily be only mildly objectionable and gets little pushback because of that actually serves to amplify the most malignant conspiracy theories.
posted by jamjam at 11:44 PM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]
I believe it's a term that was first used in 2002.
posted by CrystalDave at 11:54 PM on July 18, 2020 [8 favorites]
The term "stochastic" is used in this instance to describe the random, probabilistic nature of its effect: whether or not an attack actually takes place. And, although the actual perpetrator of a planned attack and its timing is not under the control of the stochastic terrorist, their actions nevertheless serve to increase the probability that a terrorist attack will occur. The stochastic terrorist in this context does not direct the actions of any particular individual or members of a group. Rather, the stochastic terrorist gives voice to a specific ideology via mass media with the aim of optimizing its dissemination.I think there's some descriptive overlap with what you're describing, but I think it more closely maps to 'simulated annealing', on a personal metaphorical basis. Raise the temperature to encourage bigger jumps in action/space, then let things cool in a more preferential state.
posted by CrystalDave at 11:54 PM on July 18, 2020 [8 favorites]
This week's Times Literary Supplement has an excellent book review/essay discussing what people actually mean when they declare they believe (for example) that Obama is a Muslim or that Sandy Hook never happened.
I don't know how widely available the online version is to non-subscribers or people outside the UK, so here's an extract:
"In Knowledge Resistance, the sociologist Mikael Klintman argues that it is the act of publicly stating a belief – as opposed to actually holding it – that serves the crucial evolutionarily grounded function of social signalling. If someone says Obama is a Muslim, their primary reason may be to indicate that they are a member of the group of people who co-ordinate around that statement. When a social belief and a true belief are in conflict, Klintman says, people will opt for the belief that best signals their social identity – even if it means lying to themselves.
"You could, for example, signal your deep distrust of big government and undying loyalty to the Second Amendment of the US Constitution by stating that the December 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook school was a hoax (while, on some level, assuming that it really did happen). Such a 'belief' – being largely performative – rarely translates into action. It remains what Mercier calls a reflective belief, with no consequences on one’s behaviour, as opposed to an intuitive belief, which guides decisions and actions.
"Sometimes a false belief can cross over, from a mere signal to a basis for real-world decision and action, and that’s when we see the dangerous collateral effects of belief-signalling. While some hoaxers stopped at simply voicing their 'theory' about Sandy Hook, in Florida, in June 2017, Lucy Richards was convicted of threatening the father of the six-year-old Noah Pozner, one of the twenty-seven victims (including the shooter’s own mother) of the massacre. Richards said that the boy never existed and that his parents were actors who deserved death for perpetrating a lie."
posted by Paul Slade at 3:11 AM on July 19, 2020 [22 favorites]
I don't know how widely available the online version is to non-subscribers or people outside the UK, so here's an extract:
"In Knowledge Resistance, the sociologist Mikael Klintman argues that it is the act of publicly stating a belief – as opposed to actually holding it – that serves the crucial evolutionarily grounded function of social signalling. If someone says Obama is a Muslim, their primary reason may be to indicate that they are a member of the group of people who co-ordinate around that statement. When a social belief and a true belief are in conflict, Klintman says, people will opt for the belief that best signals their social identity – even if it means lying to themselves.
"You could, for example, signal your deep distrust of big government and undying loyalty to the Second Amendment of the US Constitution by stating that the December 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook school was a hoax (while, on some level, assuming that it really did happen). Such a 'belief' – being largely performative – rarely translates into action. It remains what Mercier calls a reflective belief, with no consequences on one’s behaviour, as opposed to an intuitive belief, which guides decisions and actions.
"Sometimes a false belief can cross over, from a mere signal to a basis for real-world decision and action, and that’s when we see the dangerous collateral effects of belief-signalling. While some hoaxers stopped at simply voicing their 'theory' about Sandy Hook, in Florida, in June 2017, Lucy Richards was convicted of threatening the father of the six-year-old Noah Pozner, one of the twenty-seven victims (including the shooter’s own mother) of the massacre. Richards said that the boy never existed and that his parents were actors who deserved death for perpetrating a lie."
posted by Paul Slade at 3:11 AM on July 19, 2020 [22 favorites]
Listening to the recent Bill Cooper episode of 'Behind the Bastards' (which drew from a lot of the same sources as Anna Merlan's piece) I was struck by how much fucking bullshit Cooper spewed over three decades, and just kept going and going. A key element of the conspiracy cults seems to be a fixation on the present story and not engaging at all with the idea of 'a track record' or even last month. It's the Gish gallop technique, just spew it faster than anyone has the time or energy to remember it never mind ask 'so is it still the moth aliens?'
posted by anthill at 3:29 AM on July 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by anthill at 3:29 AM on July 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
Hey, I'll have you know that's Mefi's own adrianhon!
Conspiracy theories are of course nothing new, and there are lots of ways to understand them without referring to ARGs. That said, ARGs are uniquely internet-native, community-based forms of storytelling and puzzle-solving, and I think they help explain why modern-day conspiracies like QAnon look and behave differently from conspiracy theories of the past.
posted by adrianhon at 4:12 AM on July 19, 2020 [19 favorites]
Conspiracy theories are of course nothing new, and there are lots of ways to understand them without referring to ARGs. That said, ARGs are uniquely internet-native, community-based forms of storytelling and puzzle-solving, and I think they help explain why modern-day conspiracies like QAnon look and behave differently from conspiracy theories of the past.
posted by adrianhon at 4:12 AM on July 19, 2020 [19 favorites]
deadluspark said: The thing is, I think that, deep down, a lot of this crazy bullshit is likely rooted in some very non-crazy bullshit like that. For instance, I am anxious about a COVID vaccine being pushed out too quickly without enough rigorous testing, but that doesn't mean I wholesale reject the idea of a COVID vaccine.
Lonnrot said: There were always ugly things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that were either overtly antisemitic or gateways into antisemitism, so it's not as if conspiracy subculture was ever free of bigotry but there were strains more focused on psychedelics, consciousness and mysticism that are largely either gone now or act as fronts for hate groups like so many other things on the modern web. It's a sad end to come to this point.
mstokes650 said: The core contradiction at the heart of almost every conspiracy theory is that it requires you to believe that a group of people is simultaneously both terrifyingly effective and mind-bogglingly incompetent. This is an ideal characteristic in fictional villains, especially for recurring villains in long-running fictional works, because you want the villains to be very scary but also ultimately pretty ineffective (for example: every bad guy in every 80s kids cartoon). It is a lot harder to justify as a thing that actually exists in the real world, at least not without a massive dose of cognitive dissonance.
All three of these points are excellent ones, and I think they come together to reveal the ultimate appeal behind every conspiracy theory.
They all argue, at base, that "your" anxieties, your fears, your sense that the world is not the way you think it should be is that there is some group in the world that is wholly, irredeemably Other. From there, apocalyptic reading strategies -- the notion that the world conforms to a narrative structure and all things are symbolic representations of the conflict with this Other -- become almost inevitable.
Whether the anxieties have some foundation in actual issues, as in the anti-vaxx stuff deadaluspark notes, or constructed ones, as in Q and some (additional) white/Xtian supremacist versions, they only fuel conspiracism because they offer this Other as a reason.
To be attracted to a conspiracy theory in this way, to buy in, is to want an Other to blame and to hate, to find that much more appealing than the harder cognitive and political work of addressing issues in all their complexity.
It's not just that conspiracism is more entertaining, or even that it allows for a heroic narrative. After all, most traditional conspiracy theories are actually quite disempowering, in that the believer is always waiting for the moment when the good folks like them will rise up, or when a heroic leader (who is also innately like them) will finally act. They offer only the ability to"read" the world-as-narrative and to wait, for the most part.
Every apocalypticism has this underlying structure: the Time Will Come Soon, and can at most be hurried a bit by the believer's individual actions, which might at most be the spark but are never the fire to come. Conspiracism, though, adds a hatred of an Other to the mix: all of history and culture become the final proof that They are bad and must be destroyed, and the believer is not so much heroic as they are Normal and Innately Right, right by their very being, without any acton needed on their part.
But this also means that the Other is innately Other, that they are incapable of being anything but inimical and malign. very conspiracy theory imputes essential, ineradicable traits to that Other, and its logic is that any imperfections in the world -- or the believer -- are due to the presence of that Other, which is also always their malign action on the world.
As such, once a conspiracist is far enough in, nothing will actually satisfy them, not even, in some sense, the world reshaping itself to approximate their visions of punishing or destroying their designated Other. Because the believers are still, at the end of the day, alone with themselves, and the world is not yet perfect. So there must be more Others out there.
If this sounds like anti-Semitism's structure, that's because, as has been noted, it is fundamentally this. The anti-Semite does not just always find a "Jewish plot," but also always finds "Jews" who must be rooted out and destroyed. The Inquisition, recall, spent quite a bit of time torturing converts to catholicism on the suspicion that they had secretly retained their Jewish faith and its practices.
Think, too, of birtherism, in which is was not enough to believe that Barack Obama held different political views or that his election signified social and demographic change: his very birth must be a plot, his whole existence and very being a malignant operation that was to blame.
This is why conspiracism puts so much emphasis on imaginary codes, secret societies involving public figures in fantastical plots, and secret identities -- from the hidden Jewish presence of its anti-Semitic origins to the supposed George Washington imposture of Adam Weishaupt to David Icke's lizard people in skin suits. If the world is not yet perfect for the believer -- and it never will be -- it must be because some Other is out there.
Conspiracism always create Others who are, in the end, to be subjected to the most degrading treatment, not only to destruction but to humiliation, torture, and other practices of dehumanization. Where the believer lacks power, this is done narratively. Where they hold power, it is done physically and psychologically, and by whatever means make it possible.
In the anti-Semitic societies of Europe, his was done through the power of the state and often through large scale productive processes. In the U.S., it is done through the citizen's access to legal processes -- think of sovereign citizens or the court cases around birtherism -- and at its extreme through access to firearms. And, sadly and horrifically, in some anti-vaxx families, it manifests in the use of torturous treatments for the autistic child, and in narratives from parents making it clear that they would rather have a child die than be Other than allistic.
Anti-Semitism is still the map: it was the theory that was nurtured and weaponized by institutions, if not original to them. But the appeal of a conspiracy theory is almost always, fundamentally, that "We" can only be okay once "They" have been destroyed, and it is held by people whose ideas of "okay" are an impossible fantasy of a world that bends around their expectations.
posted by kewb at 4:23 AM on July 19, 2020 [36 favorites]
Lonnrot said: There were always ugly things like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that were either overtly antisemitic or gateways into antisemitism, so it's not as if conspiracy subculture was ever free of bigotry but there were strains more focused on psychedelics, consciousness and mysticism that are largely either gone now or act as fronts for hate groups like so many other things on the modern web. It's a sad end to come to this point.
mstokes650 said: The core contradiction at the heart of almost every conspiracy theory is that it requires you to believe that a group of people is simultaneously both terrifyingly effective and mind-bogglingly incompetent. This is an ideal characteristic in fictional villains, especially for recurring villains in long-running fictional works, because you want the villains to be very scary but also ultimately pretty ineffective (for example: every bad guy in every 80s kids cartoon). It is a lot harder to justify as a thing that actually exists in the real world, at least not without a massive dose of cognitive dissonance.
All three of these points are excellent ones, and I think they come together to reveal the ultimate appeal behind every conspiracy theory.
They all argue, at base, that "your" anxieties, your fears, your sense that the world is not the way you think it should be is that there is some group in the world that is wholly, irredeemably Other. From there, apocalyptic reading strategies -- the notion that the world conforms to a narrative structure and all things are symbolic representations of the conflict with this Other -- become almost inevitable.
Whether the anxieties have some foundation in actual issues, as in the anti-vaxx stuff deadaluspark notes, or constructed ones, as in Q and some (additional) white/Xtian supremacist versions, they only fuel conspiracism because they offer this Other as a reason.
To be attracted to a conspiracy theory in this way, to buy in, is to want an Other to blame and to hate, to find that much more appealing than the harder cognitive and political work of addressing issues in all their complexity.
It's not just that conspiracism is more entertaining, or even that it allows for a heroic narrative. After all, most traditional conspiracy theories are actually quite disempowering, in that the believer is always waiting for the moment when the good folks like them will rise up, or when a heroic leader (who is also innately like them) will finally act. They offer only the ability to"read" the world-as-narrative and to wait, for the most part.
Every apocalypticism has this underlying structure: the Time Will Come Soon, and can at most be hurried a bit by the believer's individual actions, which might at most be the spark but are never the fire to come. Conspiracism, though, adds a hatred of an Other to the mix: all of history and culture become the final proof that They are bad and must be destroyed, and the believer is not so much heroic as they are Normal and Innately Right, right by their very being, without any acton needed on their part.
But this also means that the Other is innately Other, that they are incapable of being anything but inimical and malign. very conspiracy theory imputes essential, ineradicable traits to that Other, and its logic is that any imperfections in the world -- or the believer -- are due to the presence of that Other, which is also always their malign action on the world.
As such, once a conspiracist is far enough in, nothing will actually satisfy them, not even, in some sense, the world reshaping itself to approximate their visions of punishing or destroying their designated Other. Because the believers are still, at the end of the day, alone with themselves, and the world is not yet perfect. So there must be more Others out there.
If this sounds like anti-Semitism's structure, that's because, as has been noted, it is fundamentally this. The anti-Semite does not just always find a "Jewish plot," but also always finds "Jews" who must be rooted out and destroyed. The Inquisition, recall, spent quite a bit of time torturing converts to catholicism on the suspicion that they had secretly retained their Jewish faith and its practices.
Think, too, of birtherism, in which is was not enough to believe that Barack Obama held different political views or that his election signified social and demographic change: his very birth must be a plot, his whole existence and very being a malignant operation that was to blame.
This is why conspiracism puts so much emphasis on imaginary codes, secret societies involving public figures in fantastical plots, and secret identities -- from the hidden Jewish presence of its anti-Semitic origins to the supposed George Washington imposture of Adam Weishaupt to David Icke's lizard people in skin suits. If the world is not yet perfect for the believer -- and it never will be -- it must be because some Other is out there.
Conspiracism always create Others who are, in the end, to be subjected to the most degrading treatment, not only to destruction but to humiliation, torture, and other practices of dehumanization. Where the believer lacks power, this is done narratively. Where they hold power, it is done physically and psychologically, and by whatever means make it possible.
In the anti-Semitic societies of Europe, his was done through the power of the state and often through large scale productive processes. In the U.S., it is done through the citizen's access to legal processes -- think of sovereign citizens or the court cases around birtherism -- and at its extreme through access to firearms. And, sadly and horrifically, in some anti-vaxx families, it manifests in the use of torturous treatments for the autistic child, and in narratives from parents making it clear that they would rather have a child die than be Other than allistic.
Anti-Semitism is still the map: it was the theory that was nurtured and weaponized by institutions, if not original to them. But the appeal of a conspiracy theory is almost always, fundamentally, that "We" can only be okay once "They" have been destroyed, and it is held by people whose ideas of "okay" are an impossible fantasy of a world that bends around their expectations.
posted by kewb at 4:23 AM on July 19, 2020 [36 favorites]
I always feel a little ashamed saying this publicly, but I think conspiracy theories are what not-very-smart people think it must be like to be smart: you have secret knowledge; it’s very arcane, with many obsessive details; it makes you stronger and safer, because you can’t be fooled.
Whereas the truly smartest people I know work with generally available information, and their insights are not always impressively complex — they just apply them consistently and judiciously.
posted by argybarg at 4:34 AM on July 19, 2020 [43 favorites]
Whereas the truly smartest people I know work with generally available information, and their insights are not always impressively complex — they just apply them consistently and judiciously.
posted by argybarg at 4:34 AM on July 19, 2020 [43 favorites]
It's not stochastic terrorism, but it's close.
Stochastic errorism seems to fit.
posted by srboisvert at 4:56 AM on July 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
Stochastic errorism seems to fit.
posted by srboisvert at 4:56 AM on July 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
Mod note: One removed. If you have pertinent information to share, that's fine, but rounding it out by insulting a fellow member just means the whole thing is deleted. Don't do that. Also, sorry for delay in removing that, was busy elsewhere on the site for a bit.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:02 AM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 5:02 AM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Pogo was right.
posted by tommasz at 6:33 AM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 6:33 AM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
I haven't finished this video - I can only take short doses at a time - but it seems to have a degree of insight and presents a lot of source material. I know many people here consider themselves to be strongly anti-Zionist; give it a few minutes.
The Conspiracy Libel (Part 1: From Emancipation to Extermination)
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:38 AM on July 19, 2020
The Conspiracy Libel (Part 1: From Emancipation to Extermination)
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:38 AM on July 19, 2020
> These idiots think that the entire freaking world is in lockdown, tanking their economies and pretending to bury hundreds of thousands of bodies, in order to try to somehow affect the US election? Seriously?
Fundamental to contemporary conspiracy thinking is the simulacrum. Basically everything that disconfirms the theory simply isn't real -- they're not tanking their economies, that's just what CNN etc is telling you that they are doing.
In many ways I think that the existence of conspiracy thinking is a kind of psychological reaction to the invention of television, and especially television as fiction occurring in the same medium as television news. It seems like some people just cannot handle shifting between these two modalities and integrating the difference in their minds, the distinction breaks down and now everything real is fake and everything fake is real
posted by dis_integration at 7:12 AM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
Fundamental to contemporary conspiracy thinking is the simulacrum. Basically everything that disconfirms the theory simply isn't real -- they're not tanking their economies, that's just what CNN etc is telling you that they are doing.
In many ways I think that the existence of conspiracy thinking is a kind of psychological reaction to the invention of television, and especially television as fiction occurring in the same medium as television news. It seems like some people just cannot handle shifting between these two modalities and integrating the difference in their minds, the distinction breaks down and now everything real is fake and everything fake is real
posted by dis_integration at 7:12 AM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
"In Knowledge Resistance, the sociologist Mikael Klintman argues that it is the act of publicly stating a belief – as opposed to actually holding it – that serves the crucial evolutionarily grounded function of social signalling. If someone says Obama is a Muslim, their primary reason may be to indicate that they are a member of the group of people who co-ordinate around that statement. When a social belief and a true belief are in conflict, Klintman says, people will opt for the belief that best signals their social identity – even if it means lying to themselves.
"You could, for example, signal your deep distrust of big government and undying loyalty to the Second Amendment of the US Constitution by stating that the December 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook school was a hoax (while, on some level, assuming that it really did happen). Such a 'belief' – being largely performative – rarely translates into action. It remains what Mercier calls a reflective belief, with no consequences on one’s behaviour, as opposed to an intuitive belief, which guides decisions and actions.
I'm fascinated by what it must be like to operate this way, and it's making me want to think of examples of this that I've participated in.
Actually, it makes me worry a little that I can't think of any. If this is a basic human social pattern, being smart and a liberal shouldn't make me exempt from it, any more than smart liberals are exempt from showing off, keeping up appearances, ostracizing, or any other social whatever. So i'm probably doing it, and probably oblivious to the fact that I'm doing it? I don't like that.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:08 AM on July 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
"You could, for example, signal your deep distrust of big government and undying loyalty to the Second Amendment of the US Constitution by stating that the December 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook school was a hoax (while, on some level, assuming that it really did happen). Such a 'belief' – being largely performative – rarely translates into action. It remains what Mercier calls a reflective belief, with no consequences on one’s behaviour, as opposed to an intuitive belief, which guides decisions and actions.
I'm fascinated by what it must be like to operate this way, and it's making me want to think of examples of this that I've participated in.
Actually, it makes me worry a little that I can't think of any. If this is a basic human social pattern, being smart and a liberal shouldn't make me exempt from it, any more than smart liberals are exempt from showing off, keeping up appearances, ostracizing, or any other social whatever. So i'm probably doing it, and probably oblivious to the fact that I'm doing it? I don't like that.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:08 AM on July 19, 2020 [8 favorites]
To (slightly) update the old saying, conspiracy theory is the socialism of fools. I think the reason conspiracy theories find such purchase today is that there actually is a relatively small group of people whose collective interest is driving society toward catastrophe. Y’know, the capitalist ruling class.
posted by thedamnbees at 8:10 AM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by thedamnbees at 8:10 AM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
@Lonnrot Thank goodness deoxy.org was mirrored before the end.
posted by moink at 9:09 AM on July 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by moink at 9:09 AM on July 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Intellectual vice and virtue (as intellectual character) is outlined here in a brief essay. It is time to turn the tables on so-called bad thinkers. They wrap themselves in the American flag and seem patriotic, as they secretly admire the confederacy and Russia to undermine public institutions. They wear Christianity on their sleeve to support a united front against those who practice tolerance and keep their personal beliefs private, out of government and schools. These approaches have allowed them to appear as upright, moral, pious and harmless while weaponizing religion and government. The point is not to call them out on their hypocrisy, because it may not be hypocritical at all, and doing so justifies their original viewpoint. There is more hypocrisy in the gentle critic who thinks true belief is harmless when practiced as public policy. Instead, we should spotlight their actual private disgusting behaviors and allegiances as uncivil role models for good people everywhere. We have a right to know what else they do and believe in since they made it an issue. It is important to recall to Trump was elected by normal people who assumed he wasn't a "religious" person, when in fact he was a secret mascot and a political sleeper cell. Good people don't point at others as a habit (which only serves to point away from themselves), which is why calling their bluff is not a normal instinct. We can casually blame Hollywood for creating a cultural image of overt devotion as meek and not aggressive. This confused most people on what an overt "religious" person actually looks like, ignoring the anti-social reality of self-righteousness, which hides disturbing problems and contradictions.
posted by Brian B. at 9:32 AM on July 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Brian B. at 9:32 AM on July 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Because I am a conspiracy theorist, I believe many of these conspiracies were designed on purpose by people in positions of power to deflect from their own misdeeds and that merging them together has been the plan all along.
For example, who came out to the "open the economy" protests?
Proud boys, pro-gun activists, anti-vaxxers, white supremacists, local "militia" and other far-right conspiracy theorists.
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/04/27/anti-lockdown-rallies-are-providing-opening-proud-boys-and-other-far-right-extremists
There's networks of right-wing conspiracy thinking that look superficially different, because they're designed to attract different audiences and draw in different kinds of people. But these groups can be merged as needed to support political ends, for instance the Trumpist desire to reopen the ecenomy in May.
Of course some conspiracies really have grassroots and are created and grow organically but lots of these conspiracies are created on purpose by the same people who created the Tea Party. And they are being merged now to create the electoral base to keep our local white supremacist autocrat in power.
posted by subdee at 10:08 AM on July 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
For example, who came out to the "open the economy" protests?
Proud boys, pro-gun activists, anti-vaxxers, white supremacists, local "militia" and other far-right conspiracy theorists.
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/04/27/anti-lockdown-rallies-are-providing-opening-proud-boys-and-other-far-right-extremists
There's networks of right-wing conspiracy thinking that look superficially different, because they're designed to attract different audiences and draw in different kinds of people. But these groups can be merged as needed to support political ends, for instance the Trumpist desire to reopen the ecenomy in May.
Of course some conspiracies really have grassroots and are created and grow organically but lots of these conspiracies are created on purpose by the same people who created the Tea Party. And they are being merged now to create the electoral base to keep our local white supremacist autocrat in power.
posted by subdee at 10:08 AM on July 19, 2020 [14 favorites]
I feel like William S. Burroughs ideas like using word viruses and controlling the reality studio have manifested themselves in conspiracy theories and in the Fox News/Republican party denial of reality.
I also think that some of the popularity of conspiracy theories is driven by people who are lazy, but still want to feel like an expert on something. You don’t have to do the work required to be a doctor or a physicist or whatever. You don’t have to learn math or read books. The same with hodgepodge appropriative yoga moon spiritualism. It is like an identity and “skill” that you can pick up without any effort.
posted by snofoam at 10:09 AM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
I also think that some of the popularity of conspiracy theories is driven by people who are lazy, but still want to feel like an expert on something. You don’t have to do the work required to be a doctor or a physicist or whatever. You don’t have to learn math or read books. The same with hodgepodge appropriative yoga moon spiritualism. It is like an identity and “skill” that you can pick up without any effort.
posted by snofoam at 10:09 AM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
As far as why people believe the Warfair hoax, it's because this is only a small step further from the other "everyone is a pedophile" stuff you can find online... Once you get sucked into one of these online circles you are literally trained to see pedophiles everywhere.
There's several layers that make this believable, people's personal experiences with CSA, which is after all very common... The number of people in power who *are* revealed to have inappropriate relations like Epstein and all his billionaire friends...
And on the level of the spectacle, also the number of TV shows that use pedophiles as the villains because they're easy to villify... the tendency to call anyone you don't like online a pedophile or at least imply they might be a pedophile because it's an effective way to discredit them...
The Wayfair hoax is perfect, it's shocking enough that people reblog it out of shock that it could be true, but close enough to the "pedophiles are everywhere" messaging people are receiving from the news, fictionalized cop shows and their personal experiences/the experiences of their friends online that it is believable.
posted by subdee at 10:20 AM on July 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
There's several layers that make this believable, people's personal experiences with CSA, which is after all very common... The number of people in power who *are* revealed to have inappropriate relations like Epstein and all his billionaire friends...
And on the level of the spectacle, also the number of TV shows that use pedophiles as the villains because they're easy to villify... the tendency to call anyone you don't like online a pedophile or at least imply they might be a pedophile because it's an effective way to discredit them...
The Wayfair hoax is perfect, it's shocking enough that people reblog it out of shock that it could be true, but close enough to the "pedophiles are everywhere" messaging people are receiving from the news, fictionalized cop shows and their personal experiences/the experiences of their friends online that it is believable.
posted by subdee at 10:20 AM on July 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
My new hobby is trying to convince people that George Soros doesn't really exist, that he was invented as a liberal Jewish bogeyman by Rupert Murdoch and the Koch brothers in the 1980s and has been played by an actor ever since.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:13 AM on July 19, 2020 [30 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:13 AM on July 19, 2020 [30 favorites]
My new hobby is trying to convince people that George Soros doesn't really exist, that he was invented as a liberal Jewish bogeyman by Rupert Murdoch and the Koch brothers in the 1980s and has been played by an actor ever since.
:slowclap:
I now have a new side gig.
posted by delfin at 11:47 AM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
:slowclap:
I now have a new side gig.
posted by delfin at 11:47 AM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
One of the frustrating things about conspiracy theories is that the more we talk about them, the stronger they get.
posted by storybored at 11:55 AM on July 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by storybored at 11:55 AM on July 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
I've always felt like anti-Stratfordianism (the idea that Shakespeare didn't write "Shakespeare") is the ur-conspiracy theory of the modern era.
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:31 PM on July 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:31 PM on July 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
Also, it's fascinating how the Epstein scandal, a _legit_ conspiracy where underage girls were trafficed for sexual exploitation by the wealthy and powerful has had a minimal (at best) effect on QAnon.
Right-wingers are pretty into Epstein stuff, it's just one piece in the puzzle for them though.
posted by atoxyl at 12:36 PM on July 19, 2020
Right-wingers are pretty into Epstein stuff, it's just one piece in the puzzle for them though.
posted by atoxyl at 12:36 PM on July 19, 2020
- 1994 me, full of enthusiasm and optimism about the promise and potential of the internet, reading this headline -
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:50 PM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:50 PM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
it seems to be a strong human desire to make sense of things by assuming cause and effect, even scientists who believe in the randomness of evolution seem to want to "design" solutions.
And that's why everyone needs some education in the humanities alongside the sciences.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 12:59 PM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
And that's why everyone needs some education in the humanities alongside the sciences.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 12:59 PM on July 19, 2020 [7 favorites]
The problem with conspiracy theories is a lot of them turn out to be true. I remember reading Them! by Jon Ronson ages ago and a throughline is this shady group called The Bilderberg Group that has secret meetings in Switzerland to set the agenda for the world and so he gets there and...yeah they exist and have secret meetings in Switzerland with world movers and shakers. Today they even have a website.
Likewise, it turns out the Gulf of Tonkin incident was at the very least exaggerated to get us into Vietnam.
The CIA really did dose people with LSD.
There really are unbadged federal cops black bagging people into unmarked vans.
What's interesting to me is that there's never any followup. One thing that struck me in Them! was that Ronson finds out there is a Bilderberg Group that he's been chasing the whole book and just sort of goes "Huh! That's weird!"
Likewise we find out there really is a pedophile ring supported by powerful politicians and rich people and so far the big concern is that the guy behind it maybe didn't commit suicide.
I think it's about the fantasy of order, honestly, the idea that there actually is a plan behind the universe and good, smart people that know the magic rules win and the evil bad guys get punished, rather than "Oh yeah Hollywood has been full of pedophiles, and the people that have spoken out about it mysteriously no longer have careers. In the meantime nothing changes."
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 1:07 PM on July 19, 2020 [13 favorites]
Likewise, it turns out the Gulf of Tonkin incident was at the very least exaggerated to get us into Vietnam.
The CIA really did dose people with LSD.
There really are unbadged federal cops black bagging people into unmarked vans.
What's interesting to me is that there's never any followup. One thing that struck me in Them! was that Ronson finds out there is a Bilderberg Group that he's been chasing the whole book and just sort of goes "Huh! That's weird!"
Likewise we find out there really is a pedophile ring supported by powerful politicians and rich people and so far the big concern is that the guy behind it maybe didn't commit suicide.
I think it's about the fantasy of order, honestly, the idea that there actually is a plan behind the universe and good, smart people that know the magic rules win and the evil bad guys get punished, rather than "Oh yeah Hollywood has been full of pedophiles, and the people that have spoken out about it mysteriously no longer have careers. In the meantime nothing changes."
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 1:07 PM on July 19, 2020 [13 favorites]
It is the tiny kernel of truth that lends conspiracy theories their seductive power, even when the narratives built around them are obviously the product of disordered thinking.
posted by wierdo at 1:14 PM on July 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 1:14 PM on July 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
Like, even if, as many posited at the time, groups like the Ford Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation were created with the intent to influence American education with the purpose of accepting and supporting a socialist worldwide government, that plan has so miserably come to pass that our entire nation hates the ideas of socialism and communism possibly more vociferously than ever
Your missing the part where these conspiracy believers think American government and society IS fundamentally socialist. That their extremely high taxes are being used to pay for services for undeserving people. That Obamacare and Medicare and public schools and national parks and zoning laws are all socialism keeping them from having the good life and all the guns they deserve.
I'm fascinated by what it must be like to operate this way, and it's making me want to think of examples of this that I've participated in.
Well even here on mefi there's things like "Capitalism", which is so much of an in-group signifier that people can use it as a one-word comment that people will just unquestioningly nod their head to. Or there's the belief in the Inevitable Revolution that will raise up the worthy and punish the unworthy. Again that has hit the level of a one-word signifier: "guillotines", completely ignoring the actual real-life targets of the device. But the story has supplanted the facts, since we are storytelling creatures.
posted by happyroach at 2:33 PM on July 19, 2020 [9 favorites]
Your missing the part where these conspiracy believers think American government and society IS fundamentally socialist. That their extremely high taxes are being used to pay for services for undeserving people. That Obamacare and Medicare and public schools and national parks and zoning laws are all socialism keeping them from having the good life and all the guns they deserve.
I'm fascinated by what it must be like to operate this way, and it's making me want to think of examples of this that I've participated in.
Well even here on mefi there's things like "Capitalism", which is so much of an in-group signifier that people can use it as a one-word comment that people will just unquestioningly nod their head to. Or there's the belief in the Inevitable Revolution that will raise up the worthy and punish the unworthy. Again that has hit the level of a one-word signifier: "guillotines", completely ignoring the actual real-life targets of the device. But the story has supplanted the facts, since we are storytelling creatures.
posted by happyroach at 2:33 PM on July 19, 2020 [9 favorites]
Speaking of the human desire to look for patterns and draw connections, one connection between the anti-vaxxer crowd and the reopen america crowd, two seemingly very different groups, is that we know that bots and trolls are amplifying both these messages.
For instance, on the anti-vaxxer side there is evidence that a greater than normal percentage of anti-vax tweets are made by bots and trolls... including Russian trolls who take both sides of any controversial issue to cause chaos, but also marketing SEO type accounts that do it because controversial headlines drive more click-through traffic:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/
On the other hand, almost half of the reopen America tweets are by bots:
https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/21/1002105/covid-bot-twitter-accounts-push-to-reopen-america/
To say that some of the rise of conspiracy thinking is coming from organized misinformation campaigns at the level of State actors isn't a conspiracy theory: it's true. And of course, we currently have an anti-science, anti-expertise president whose campaign was directly supported by exactly those misinformation campaigns (both foreign and domestic).
posted by subdee at 2:41 PM on July 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
For instance, on the anti-vaxxer side there is evidence that a greater than normal percentage of anti-vax tweets are made by bots and trolls... including Russian trolls who take both sides of any controversial issue to cause chaos, but also marketing SEO type accounts that do it because controversial headlines drive more click-through traffic:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/
On the other hand, almost half of the reopen America tweets are by bots:
https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/21/1002105/covid-bot-twitter-accounts-push-to-reopen-america/
To say that some of the rise of conspiracy thinking is coming from organized misinformation campaigns at the level of State actors isn't a conspiracy theory: it's true. And of course, we currently have an anti-science, anti-expertise president whose campaign was directly supported by exactly those misinformation campaigns (both foreign and domestic).
posted by subdee at 2:41 PM on July 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
My friends and I were talking earlier this week about the fact that it feels like internet conspiracies in the 90s were fun nonsense
Have to sadly wonder how well the conspiracy-themed episodes of Coast to Coast hold up, especially once they started letting Alex Jones into the studio. (I want to say the latter was post-Art Bell, hopefully I'm not wrong).
posted by gtrwolf at 2:54 PM on July 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Have to sadly wonder how well the conspiracy-themed episodes of Coast to Coast hold up, especially once they started letting Alex Jones into the studio. (I want to say the latter was post-Art Bell, hopefully I'm not wrong).
posted by gtrwolf at 2:54 PM on July 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Go to any news page you choose, and see how at the bottom there are "sponsored links" of lies and garbage. Expand this a bit, and it starts making sense that conspiracy theories have caught hold. Here's one weird trick to avoid conspiracy theories...
posted by Windopaene at 3:07 PM on July 19, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 3:07 PM on July 19, 2020 [10 favorites]
Heh. The funny thing is my example was going to be that liberals continue to labour under the delusion that their skill for sensible reasoning will win out in the end and fascism will be defeated by a really well crafted argument.
I'm fascinated by what it must be like to operate this way, and it's making me want to think of examples of this that I've participated in.
Well even here on mefi there's things like "Capitalism", which is so much of an in-group signifier that people can use it as a one-word comment that people will just unquestioningly nod their head to. Or there's the belief in the Inevitable Revolution that will raise up the worthy and punish the unworthy. Again that has hit the level of a one-word signifier: "guillotines", completely ignoring the actual real-life targets of the device. But the story has supplanted the facts, since we are storytelling creatures.
Mostly because that means they get to keep their privilege.
posted by fullerine at 3:11 PM on July 19, 2020 [11 favorites]
Actually, it makes me worry a little that I can't think of any. If this is a basic human social pattern, being smart and a liberal shouldn't make me exempt from it, any more than smart liberals are exempt from showing off, keeping up appearances, ostracizing, or any other social whatever.
Ever voted for the Green Party in order to take down the two party system? Not quite the same, but also out of touch with reality and largely performative.
posted by snofoam at 4:11 PM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Ever voted for the Green Party in order to take down the two party system? Not quite the same, but also out of touch with reality and largely performative.
posted by snofoam at 4:11 PM on July 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
The Trump-Putin thing was a Leftist conspiracy theory that didn't pan out. Plenty of evidence that he benefited from a Russian misinformation campaign, and that various lackeys approached his campaign with offers to help out, but no evidence of high-level collusion at the top.
posted by subdee at 6:06 PM on July 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 6:06 PM on July 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
the Gulf of Tonkin incident was at the very least exaggerated to get us into Vietnam.
The CIA really did dose people with LSD.
There really are unbadged federal cops black bagging people into unmarked vans
...and yet somehow, despite all of that, some of us find it really difficult to accept that the world is actually run by shape shifting reptilians whose landing craft are secreted in Area 51 on a flat earth whose moon is so small and so close that the moon landings had to be faked to distract us from the aluminium sprayed from jet aircraft and the fluoride put in the water to keep us quiet and compliant while Soros gets on with funding the One World Government and destroying the weather with HAARP unless Trump drains the swamp and saves us all from the fake pandemic that's actually just a side effect of having our immune systems destroyed by 5G cell phone towers and smart meters and wind turbine noise and mandatory vaccinations and tracking nanochips embedded via deep nasal swabs.
I don't know what's wrong with us.
posted by flabdablet at 7:43 PM on July 19, 2020 [18 favorites]
The CIA really did dose people with LSD.
There really are unbadged federal cops black bagging people into unmarked vans
...and yet somehow, despite all of that, some of us find it really difficult to accept that the world is actually run by shape shifting reptilians whose landing craft are secreted in Area 51 on a flat earth whose moon is so small and so close that the moon landings had to be faked to distract us from the aluminium sprayed from jet aircraft and the fluoride put in the water to keep us quiet and compliant while Soros gets on with funding the One World Government and destroying the weather with HAARP unless Trump drains the swamp and saves us all from the fake pandemic that's actually just a side effect of having our immune systems destroyed by 5G cell phone towers and smart meters and wind turbine noise and mandatory vaccinations and tracking nanochips embedded via deep nasal swabs.
I don't know what's wrong with us.
posted by flabdablet at 7:43 PM on July 19, 2020 [18 favorites]
The Trump-Putin thing was a Leftist conspiracy theory that didn't pan out. Plenty of evidence that he benefited from a Russian misinformation campaign, and that various lackeys approached his campaign with offers to help out, but no evidence of high-level collusion at the top.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgh!
.
posted by bonobothegreat at 9:30 PM on July 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgh!
.
posted by bonobothegreat at 9:30 PM on July 19, 2020 [12 favorites]
Needs a "reverse vampires" tag.
All my friends were reverse vampires
Didn't know they were reverse vampires...
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:50 AM on July 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
All my friends were reverse vampires
Didn't know they were reverse vampires...
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:50 AM on July 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
bonobothegreat, I’m not sure if that link is supposed to be some kind of rebuttal but the third paragraph says,
But Mueller did not charge or suggest charges for anyone on one of the biggest questions he faced: whether the Trump campaign worked with the Russians to influence the election.
posted by thedamnbees at 6:18 AM on July 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
But Mueller did not charge or suggest charges for anyone on one of the biggest questions he faced: whether the Trump campaign worked with the Russians to influence the election.
posted by thedamnbees at 6:18 AM on July 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
The Time link was just the first, most straightforward search hit. It states that Mueller was unlikely to ever indict a sitting president. It shows that members of Trumps circle went to jail for lying to to investigators and other types of obstruction. These people were sentenced to jail for protecting Trump.
The fact that Trump wasn’t charged didn't vindicate him and didn't make it “a Leftist conspiracy theory that didn’t pan out”. Trump stayed in because of a collusive GOP senate. I'm screaming because we're barely a year from the event and even on The Blue, people are describing the investigation in weird reductive terms.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:13 AM on July 20, 2020 [23 favorites]
The fact that Trump wasn’t charged didn't vindicate him and didn't make it “a Leftist conspiracy theory that didn’t pan out”. Trump stayed in because of a collusive GOP senate. I'm screaming because we're barely a year from the event and even on The Blue, people are describing the investigation in weird reductive terms.
posted by bonobothegreat at 7:13 AM on July 20, 2020 [23 favorites]
All my friends were reverse vampires
Didn't know they were reverse vampires...
posted by Cardinal Fang
Epony... *stops, shakes head*
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:57 AM on July 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Didn't know they were reverse vampires...
posted by Cardinal Fang
Epony... *stops, shakes head*
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:57 AM on July 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
bonobothegreat, I'm not saying this based on nothing. The conspiracy theory that Trump was some kind of Russian puppet hasn't been supported by evidence. What Mueller found was that the Russian misinformation campaign aided the Trump campaign, and that a lot of different people approached the campaign with various offers, some of which came to fruition, some of which fell through. There was no singular smoking gun in the case.
(There was a TON of evidence that Trump tried to interfere with the Mueller investigation, which Mueller left up to Congress to charge. But they declined to pursue the obstruction charge.)
Even Masha Gessen, an expert on Putin's Russia, thinks the media coverage of the investigation was excessive and a diversion from the actual damage Trump was doing while in office, to immigrants, and to the cabinet and executive branch. The hope was it would get Trump out of office because he's an autocrat, but there wasn't enough "there" there.
posted by subdee at 8:13 AM on July 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
(There was a TON of evidence that Trump tried to interfere with the Mueller investigation, which Mueller left up to Congress to charge. But they declined to pursue the obstruction charge.)
Even Masha Gessen, an expert on Putin's Russia, thinks the media coverage of the investigation was excessive and a diversion from the actual damage Trump was doing while in office, to immigrants, and to the cabinet and executive branch. The hope was it would get Trump out of office because he's an autocrat, but there wasn't enough "there" there.
posted by subdee at 8:13 AM on July 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
You claimed that there was "no evidence of high-level collusion at the top", which is not what the Mueller report said about collusion. The whole reason you used "collusion" in that phrase instead of "conspiracy" is because you're repeating Trumpist propaganda here - about something which was not a conspiracy theory.
posted by XMLicious at 8:45 AM on July 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 8:45 AM on July 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
My relatives are all into all these conspiracies. Back before the election, it was kind of fun with HAARP and weather changes and moon landings, flouride, chemtrails, and mermaids and ancient aliens (they believe in all of them). Even though it was impossible to have a regular conversation with them because you never know if, when they say something outlandish, they are just messing with you or they actually believe it.
But in the past year, now it's all Q-Anon and silent majority and Hillary Clinton is a murderer and Bill Clinton was the real ringleader of Epstein's pedophile island. Per them, 'Antifa' was supposed to riot on July 4 (we actually celebrated on July 5 they were so scared) with all the cops in LA out due to 'blue flu' but when that didn't happen, the fireworks on July 4 in the LA area became the 'silent majority' fighting 'antifa'. It is really interesting to see in-person, when the theories and dates don't pan out, they just immediately shift to something else, often the exact opposite, and any errors disappear, but the overall conspiracy just moves on down the road.
I agree that they really enjoy 'researching'. The protesting and rioting and CHAZ or whatever it was called were trigger points. 'Research' involved joining police and Q facebook groups and reading the daily crime stats for NYC, Seattle (none of them have ever been there), LA (they live in a suburb, not LA proper), Chicago, and a few other cities and watching videos of rioting protesting and twitter videos of crime. This alone took a solid hour every day.
The 'racism' angle is interesting too. They don't like immigration or the riots, but they were seriously pissed about what Bill Gates was 'doing' to India and Africa.
The 'oath' mentioned in the article is a mantra - they repeated it several times a day.
I just mention this because it is so odd to see in person - like a person turning into a zombie in a movie.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:52 AM on July 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
But in the past year, now it's all Q-Anon and silent majority and Hillary Clinton is a murderer and Bill Clinton was the real ringleader of Epstein's pedophile island. Per them, 'Antifa' was supposed to riot on July 4 (we actually celebrated on July 5 they were so scared) with all the cops in LA out due to 'blue flu' but when that didn't happen, the fireworks on July 4 in the LA area became the 'silent majority' fighting 'antifa'. It is really interesting to see in-person, when the theories and dates don't pan out, they just immediately shift to something else, often the exact opposite, and any errors disappear, but the overall conspiracy just moves on down the road.
I agree that they really enjoy 'researching'. The protesting and rioting and CHAZ or whatever it was called were trigger points. 'Research' involved joining police and Q facebook groups and reading the daily crime stats for NYC, Seattle (none of them have ever been there), LA (they live in a suburb, not LA proper), Chicago, and a few other cities and watching videos of rioting protesting and twitter videos of crime. This alone took a solid hour every day.
The 'racism' angle is interesting too. They don't like immigration or the riots, but they were seriously pissed about what Bill Gates was 'doing' to India and Africa.
The 'oath' mentioned in the article is a mantra - they repeated it several times a day.
I just mention this because it is so odd to see in person - like a person turning into a zombie in a movie.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:52 AM on July 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
Well, if I misspoke it's on me... probably I shouldn't have said "no evidence" there was evidence but it was scattered and not the tidy narrative (some) people on the left were looking for.
But I'm not coming to my conclusions because I read the misleading summary of the Mueller report authored by Trump's people. I read the whole thing.
That Trump's folks succeeded in shifting the goalposts, from "benefited from" to "colluding with" to claim victory, I won't argue with you there.
posted by subdee at 8:53 AM on July 20, 2020
But I'm not coming to my conclusions because I read the misleading summary of the Mueller report authored by Trump's people. I read the whole thing.
That Trump's folks succeeded in shifting the goalposts, from "benefited from" to "colluding with" to claim victory, I won't argue with you there.
posted by subdee at 8:53 AM on July 20, 2020
Subdee, I think “Trump's folks” is the operative lever in all this, not shrill media coverage and not overblown Leftist fantasies.
None of what Trump has gotten away with would've been possible without a thoroughly rotten GOP. At any other time in living memory, we wouldn't have needed a tidier narrative. His cohorts would've abandoned him the way they did Nixon. The GOP basically said, “video or it didn't happen” and I hate to see people going along with that....which I know isn’t exactly what you're arguing but it sure feels like the shifting of the goal posts worked well.
posted by bonobothegreat at 10:07 AM on July 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
None of what Trump has gotten away with would've been possible without a thoroughly rotten GOP. At any other time in living memory, we wouldn't have needed a tidier narrative. His cohorts would've abandoned him the way they did Nixon. The GOP basically said, “video or it didn't happen” and I hate to see people going along with that....which I know isn’t exactly what you're arguing but it sure feels like the shifting of the goal posts worked well.
posted by bonobothegreat at 10:07 AM on July 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
No, I was trying to think of an example of a conspiracy theory on the left that people don't realize is a conspiracy theory... but you're right it's not the same as Q Anon or anti-vax at all, there's an underlying reality to it although not to the extent some folks were claiming, with like "Putin has blackmail material on Trump" and "this one server keeps sending out pings that is how Trump and Putin secretly communicated" and stuff like that. Maybe something like that will come out later but it hasn't yet. Instead it's conmen and grifters and plutocrats and autocrats all the way the down.
Sorry if this all was a derail, BTW.
posted by subdee at 4:25 PM on July 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Sorry if this all was a derail, BTW.
posted by subdee at 4:25 PM on July 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
My “Aaaarrrgh” was overly snarky and didn’t contribute at all towards having a constructive discussion.
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:10 PM on July 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 6:10 PM on July 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Yeah, this is getting pretty far into derail territory at this point, and probably best if we dropped it. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:51 AM on July 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 12:51 AM on July 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
I skipped reading a lot of comments to post this, but someone has made a movie about pizzagate. I believe it is real, by which I mean an actual 90-minute film you will be able to watch on some streaming service or something. I believe it to be a fictional account of someone who takes up a bunch of these conspiracy theories and acts upon those beliefs.
I had to say believe a lot there because if you watch the trailer it's just f-ing mad, and I don't have a facebook account to be able to see what I just linked to. I saw the trailer on Twitter here, from an account that is a part of the QAnonAnonymous podcast, a podcast that seeks to debunk all of the Q nonsense.
posted by Snowishberlin at 10:53 AM on July 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
I had to say believe a lot there because if you watch the trailer it's just f-ing mad, and I don't have a facebook account to be able to see what I just linked to. I saw the trailer on Twitter here, from an account that is a part of the QAnonAnonymous podcast, a podcast that seeks to debunk all of the Q nonsense.
posted by Snowishberlin at 10:53 AM on July 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
> Ghostride The Whip: "The problem with conspiracy theories is a lot of them turn out to be true. I remember reading Them! by Jon Ronson ages ago and a throughline is this shady group called The Bilderberg Group that has secret meetings in Switzerland to set the agenda for the world and so he gets there and...yeah they exist and have secret meetings in Switzerland with world movers and shakers. Today they even have a website."
The meetings part isn't the conspiracy theory. They've been semi-well-known since at least the 1970s, if I recall correctly. The "set the agenda for the world" part is the conspiracy.
posted by mhum at 12:50 PM on July 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
The meetings part isn't the conspiracy theory. They've been semi-well-known since at least the 1970s, if I recall correctly. The "set the agenda for the world" part is the conspiracy.
posted by mhum at 12:50 PM on July 21, 2020 [6 favorites]
Snowishberlin: Hey, I know the writer/director of Duncan! He's good people. Anyway, yes, it is a real movie, although I haven't seen it and I don't know if/where you can watch it yet.
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:10 PM on July 23, 2020
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:10 PM on July 23, 2020
Here's a direct link to the trailer and to the film website, both of which include the following statement:
This film sets out to explore the toxic nature of conspiracy theories and fantastical thinking writ large. Using elements of the original PizzaGate narrative, the film attempts to shine a light on those who weaponize misinformation for profit and those who carry water for such pursuits.
Although the film relies on real details surrounding the December 4th, 2016 PizzaGate attack in Washington D.C., it is by and large a work of fiction.
Due to some of the more shocking and depraved details embedded within the original PizzaGate narrative, it is necessary to point out that the film in no way endorses or condones the very real issue of human trafficking and sexual abuse. In fact, the film ultimately attempts to condemn the proliferation of misinformation surrounding an already underrepresented human atrocity.
Through a satirical lens, the film aims to expose the absurdity of those who exasperate such issues with false narratives involving the lizard illuminati, pizza parlors and more.
Although the ethos of PizzaGate is changing, the events that lead up to the attack in December of 2016 happened and should not be forgotten. Those who encouraged and ultimately carried out the attack should be seen as cautionary figures deserving of complete condemnation.
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:13 PM on July 23, 2020
This film sets out to explore the toxic nature of conspiracy theories and fantastical thinking writ large. Using elements of the original PizzaGate narrative, the film attempts to shine a light on those who weaponize misinformation for profit and those who carry water for such pursuits.
Although the film relies on real details surrounding the December 4th, 2016 PizzaGate attack in Washington D.C., it is by and large a work of fiction.
Due to some of the more shocking and depraved details embedded within the original PizzaGate narrative, it is necessary to point out that the film in no way endorses or condones the very real issue of human trafficking and sexual abuse. In fact, the film ultimately attempts to condemn the proliferation of misinformation surrounding an already underrepresented human atrocity.
Through a satirical lens, the film aims to expose the absurdity of those who exasperate such issues with false narratives involving the lizard illuminati, pizza parlors and more.
Although the ethos of PizzaGate is changing, the events that lead up to the attack in December of 2016 happened and should not be forgotten. Those who encouraged and ultimately carried out the attack should be seen as cautionary figures deserving of complete condemnation.
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:13 PM on July 23, 2020
Well, that's exacerbated my exasperation.
posted by flabdablet at 7:19 PM on July 23, 2020
posted by flabdablet at 7:19 PM on July 23, 2020
QFT: nobody is making up their own crackpot theories anymore. All the most attractive mindworms are being A/B tested for how fertile they can be when added to some predetermined belief system.
In the 1960s there were a large number of conspiracy theories of all stripes and they all hated each other. Now they have all been corralled to Trump/white power subservience, thanks to the Republicans integrating them into the party fabric. benzenedream
That's my conspiracy - that there's a cabal of super-wealthy assholes manipulating media, generating Lies, pushing Extreme Right politics, etc. I've always resisted conspiracies, but here I am, believing one that I'm sure of.
posted by theora55 at 2:06 PM on July 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
In the 1960s there were a large number of conspiracy theories of all stripes and they all hated each other. Now they have all been corralled to Trump/white power subservience, thanks to the Republicans integrating them into the party fabric. benzenedream
That's my conspiracy - that there's a cabal of super-wealthy assholes manipulating media, generating Lies, pushing Extreme Right politics, etc. I've always resisted conspiracies, but here I am, believing one that I'm sure of.
posted by theora55 at 2:06 PM on July 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
From spending too much time on Twitter, it seems that the pedophilia/child sex trafficking thing is what draws a lot of otherwise normal people in. It very much reminds me of the ritual satanic child abuse scare back in the 80s.
No amount of evidence (or failure to find evidence) will change the believer's mind in the moment, but last time they did eventually quietly give up on it. Not until several people were on the receiving end of completely batshit insane criminal charges, though.
posted by wierdo at 7:41 PM on July 24, 2020
No amount of evidence (or failure to find evidence) will change the believer's mind in the moment, but last time they did eventually quietly give up on it. Not until several people were on the receiving end of completely batshit insane criminal charges, though.
posted by wierdo at 7:41 PM on July 24, 2020
Weirdo, In the 90s, I worked for a Social Service agency. A Director decided to offer a workshop on demonic ritual issues/ dangers, and tried to research it, finding out that it's 99.8% imaginary, and what little examples exist were inspired by the sensationalism.
posted by theora55 at 10:18 AM on July 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 10:18 AM on July 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't recall seeing flat earthers in the original article, but I'm curious/horrified about how that may figure in as well. It's one of the more bizarre to me, just because of the sheer number of questions it raises immediately. If NASA (or some other group) is behind a misinformation campaign to make people believe that the earth is round when it really isn't, did they also falsify the history of scientific discoveries dating back to at least the Greeks? If the earth is flat, then how does gravity work? Wouldn't that fuck up all of modern physics, from Einstein on? How would nuclear power work? Do you use the GPS on your phone, how does that work? What about satellite TV? Are the airlines and shipping industries in on it? And every international pilot? It just ripples outward to so many things...
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:49 AM on July 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:49 AM on July 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
The demonic/satanic child abuse hysteria still exists out there in the fringes of the extreme right fundamentalist Xianity.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:51 AM on July 25, 2020
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:51 AM on July 25, 2020
did they also falsify the history of scientific discoveries dating back to at least the Greeks
I once found a series of pages extolling how the Jesuits invented all history. All of it. First, the world came into being with everyone on it. Then, a week or so later, the Jesuits invented the printing press, and then churned out all of the so-called "history." Easy.
How would nuclear power work?
A few years ago I ran across a flat earther/nuclear truther guy. The answer is (and I can't remember exactly) either they're secretly just coal plants or they're secretly free-energy plants that They don't want you to know about. Space travel doesn't work (because Newton's third law is fake, and you need air to push against). So satellites are also not real. I believe GPS was left as an exercise to the reader; perhaps so-called "GPS satellites" are actually high-altitude static balloons or something. The nuclear blasts at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just firebombings. The entire Cold War was made up by the Illuminati to keep us occupied, because nuclear bombs don't work either.
Compared to that stuff, the qanon nonsense is just disappointingly uncreative.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:43 PM on July 25, 2020
I once found a series of pages extolling how the Jesuits invented all history. All of it. First, the world came into being with everyone on it. Then, a week or so later, the Jesuits invented the printing press, and then churned out all of the so-called "history." Easy.
How would nuclear power work?
A few years ago I ran across a flat earther/nuclear truther guy. The answer is (and I can't remember exactly) either they're secretly just coal plants or they're secretly free-energy plants that They don't want you to know about. Space travel doesn't work (because Newton's third law is fake, and you need air to push against). So satellites are also not real. I believe GPS was left as an exercise to the reader; perhaps so-called "GPS satellites" are actually high-altitude static balloons or something. The nuclear blasts at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just firebombings. The entire Cold War was made up by the Illuminati to keep us occupied, because nuclear bombs don't work either.
Compared to that stuff, the qanon nonsense is just disappointingly uncreative.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:43 PM on July 25, 2020
The demonic/satanic child abuse hysteria still exists out there in the fringes of the extreme right fundamentalist Xianity.
Which has an as yet largely unexposed, Catholic Church like child sex abuse problem.
The co-occurrence of these is not a coincidence, since the hysteria serves to cover up,the real abuse, just as pizza gate helped and continues to help obscure the vast and all too real Epstein child sex abuse conspiracy.
posted by jamjam at 1:21 PM on July 25, 2020 [4 favorites]
Which has an as yet largely unexposed, Catholic Church like child sex abuse problem.
The co-occurrence of these is not a coincidence, since the hysteria serves to cover up,the real abuse, just as pizza gate helped and continues to help obscure the vast and all too real Epstein child sex abuse conspiracy.
posted by jamjam at 1:21 PM on July 25, 2020 [4 favorites]
Epstein has been rolled into it, "he was murdered by Clinton because he was going to expose Podesta's satanic rituals" or whatever. Twitter was forced to reckon with it a little because they started claiming that (of all people), Chrissy Teigen was involved with Epstein.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:29 PM on July 25, 2020
posted by BungaDunga at 1:29 PM on July 25, 2020
That's my conspiracy - that there's a cabal of super-wealthy assholes manipulating media, generating Lies, pushing Extreme Right politics, etc. I've always resisted conspiracies, but here I am, believing one that I'm sure of.
To be clear I don't believe some super cabal is coordinating all this. It's dozens of groups with the shared belief that oligarchy must be preserved at all costs. They are completely insulated from consequences, so are free to use whatever mechanisms are available to destabilize a unified opposition. In the United States they found that racism, xenophobia, and vaccine fear works best. Internet marketing came of age at the same time and provided existing platforms to generate and select for "virality" of beliefs. Just pay money to Google or Facebook and they'll give you frameworks to do so.
posted by benzenedream at 3:13 PM on July 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
To be clear I don't believe some super cabal is coordinating all this. It's dozens of groups with the shared belief that oligarchy must be preserved at all costs. They are completely insulated from consequences, so are free to use whatever mechanisms are available to destabilize a unified opposition. In the United States they found that racism, xenophobia, and vaccine fear works best. Internet marketing came of age at the same time and provided existing platforms to generate and select for "virality" of beliefs. Just pay money to Google or Facebook and they'll give you frameworks to do so.
posted by benzenedream at 3:13 PM on July 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
The demonic/satanic child abuse hysteria still exists out there in the fringes of the extreme right fundamentalist Xianity.
Until maybe just last year or so the local Elk's memorial flew a black POW-MIA flag. I'm convinced that the last Rambo movie was so bad they decided to quietly retire the flag.
posted by srboisvert at 2:52 PM on July 28, 2020
Until maybe just last year or so the local Elk's memorial flew a black POW-MIA flag. I'm convinced that the last Rambo movie was so bad they decided to quietly retire the flag.
posted by srboisvert at 2:52 PM on July 28, 2020
In the 1430s, a small group of writers in Central Europe – church inquisitors, theologians, lay magistrates and even one historian – began to describe horrific assemblies where witches gathered and worshiped demons, had orgies, ate murdered babies and performed other abominable acts. Whether any of these authors ever met each other is unclear, but they all described groups of witches supposedly active in a zone around the western Alps.
The reason for this development may have been purely practical. Church inquisitors, active against religious heretics since the 13th century, and some secular courts were looking to expand their jurisdictions. Having a new and particularly horrible crime to prosecute might have struck them as useful.
posted by Brian B. at 8:38 AM on August 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
The reason for this development may have been purely practical. Church inquisitors, active against religious heretics since the 13th century, and some secular courts were looking to expand their jurisdictions. Having a new and particularly horrible crime to prosecute might have struck them as useful.
posted by Brian B. at 8:38 AM on August 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
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posted by GenjiandProust at 11:42 AM on July 18, 2020 [103 favorites]