1/3 of New Zealand homes have winter temperatures under 64F/18C
October 5, 2020 2:00 AM Subscribe
New Zealand's cold, damp, moldy homes lead to 28,000 children and 54,000 adults being hospitalized every year. They're also the reason New Zealand has some of the highest rates of asthma, skin infections and rheumatic fever among first world countries. Up to 40% of New Zealand homes are uninsulated and 22% have no fixed heat (and a high percentage of those have no heat). The Healthy Homes Standard which will come into effect in 2021 is slated to improve the situation. But the National Party has said they will eradicate those regulations if voted in, because of the unfair burden on landlords.
A lobbying group has told landlords to avoid installing heat until they know the outcome of the election. Meanwhile, one of the nation's largest real estate companies has come down vocally on the side of the tenants.
Meanwhile, the ticking time bomb of the leaky homes crisis, due to dodgy building practices from the 1980s through the early 2000s, still waits to be fully addressed.
A lobbying group has told landlords to avoid installing heat until they know the outcome of the election. Meanwhile, one of the nation's largest real estate companies has come down vocally on the side of the tenants.
Meanwhile, the ticking time bomb of the leaky homes crisis, due to dodgy building practices from the 1980s through the early 2000s, still waits to be fully addressed.
Of that third of New Zealand homes that are under 18 degrees in winter, many are kept under 16 degrees (60F). This is still an improvement on 2008, when the average winter indoor temperature was 16 degrees Celsius.
Mr. Humfreez is a new device being deployed in New Zealand to show if homes are too cold or too damp. His face turns blue if it's under 18 degrees and his horns straighten out if it's too humid.
posted by rednikki at 2:11 AM on October 5, 2020 [17 favorites]
Mr. Humfreez is a new device being deployed in New Zealand to show if homes are too cold or too damp. His face turns blue if it's under 18 degrees and his horns straighten out if it's too humid.
posted by rednikki at 2:11 AM on October 5, 2020 [17 favorites]
Houses should be homes, not financial vehicles.
Fortunately, there are landlords who agree with you.
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:17 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Fortunately, there are landlords who agree with you.
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:17 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Ohmigosh I had not seen Mr. Humfreez, who is completely adorable.
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:20 AM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by inexorably_forward at 2:20 AM on October 5, 2020 [12 favorites]
Fortunately, there are landlords who agree with you.
Who sort of agree. For a landlord, it is at best both. Like the guy who wrote that article: "Mark Todd, long-time landlord and founder of Ockham Residential."
Clearly buying and renting out houses has very much been a financial vehicle for him.
posted by Dysk at 2:25 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
Who sort of agree. For a landlord, it is at best both. Like the guy who wrote that article: "Mark Todd, long-time landlord and founder of Ockham Residential."
Clearly buying and renting out houses has very much been a financial vehicle for him.
posted by Dysk at 2:25 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
Someone I know was involved in rolling out the more recent improvements to home insulation for rental properties. They investigated how best to publicise the (pretty minor) changes that landlords were required to make to improve the insulation to ensure that those landlords actually acted upon their legal duties.
Doing the right thing by their tenants didn't motivate them.
Appealing to their better nature just didn't get any cut-though.
Giving them three years to get around to it just meant too many didn't pull finger and get it done.
Literally the only way to publicise this change in a way that motivated landlords was to say "you will be fined if you don't do this".
Except that wasn't only occasionally true. The Tenancy Tribunal is currently fining about 10 landlords per month for making their tenants sick. There are maybe 100,000 homes that don't meet the current insulation standards, maybe 700,000 depending upon where you draw the line.
So if you are one of the many landlords who don't give a fuck, then why bother insulating your houses? You probably won't be penalised for it and give the massive demand for any housing at all, you can just carry on with your tax-free capital gains.
(This post brought to you by someone who owns their own property but has had to deal with some truly hideous examples of humanity, all of whom were landlords.)
posted by happyinmotion at 2:30 AM on October 5, 2020 [22 favorites]
Doing the right thing by their tenants didn't motivate them.
Appealing to their better nature just didn't get any cut-though.
Giving them three years to get around to it just meant too many didn't pull finger and get it done.
Literally the only way to publicise this change in a way that motivated landlords was to say "you will be fined if you don't do this".
Except that wasn't only occasionally true. The Tenancy Tribunal is currently fining about 10 landlords per month for making their tenants sick. There are maybe 100,000 homes that don't meet the current insulation standards, maybe 700,000 depending upon where you draw the line.
So if you are one of the many landlords who don't give a fuck, then why bother insulating your houses? You probably won't be penalised for it and give the massive demand for any housing at all, you can just carry on with your tax-free capital gains.
(This post brought to you by someone who owns their own property but has had to deal with some truly hideous examples of humanity, all of whom were landlords.)
posted by happyinmotion at 2:30 AM on October 5, 2020 [22 favorites]
New Zealand housing stock is a fucking scandal and an unacceptable public health crisis. I saw a tweet years ago that to me summed it up in a nutshell:
American couple on a house hunting tv show: does the house have granite countertops?
New Zealand house hunter: does the house have mould?
The obscenely high prices of housing here has put home ownership out of the hands of so many. And those who rent are paying an absurd amount of income towards not only renting these drafty damp pieces of shit, but also towards heating them. This is why we have such high rates of not only the diseases listed above but also of things like rheumatic fever.
Subsequent governments have failed to address the housing crisis in any meaningful way, and as usual it’s the most vulnerable among us who bear the brunt of the consequences.
I still can’t believe I had central heating in California where it’s warm af, but have never lived in a house with central heating in NZ. It’s to the point where when I visit the States I’m super weirded out when it’s cold out, but inside wherever I’m staying it’s not only warm, but it’s the same warm temperature in every room.
posted by supercrayon at 3:44 AM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]
American couple on a house hunting tv show: does the house have granite countertops?
New Zealand house hunter: does the house have mould?
The obscenely high prices of housing here has put home ownership out of the hands of so many. And those who rent are paying an absurd amount of income towards not only renting these drafty damp pieces of shit, but also towards heating them. This is why we have such high rates of not only the diseases listed above but also of things like rheumatic fever.
Subsequent governments have failed to address the housing crisis in any meaningful way, and as usual it’s the most vulnerable among us who bear the brunt of the consequences.
I still can’t believe I had central heating in California where it’s warm af, but have never lived in a house with central heating in NZ. It’s to the point where when I visit the States I’m super weirded out when it’s cold out, but inside wherever I’m staying it’s not only warm, but it’s the same warm temperature in every room.
posted by supercrayon at 3:44 AM on October 5, 2020 [15 favorites]
The same crap goes on on this side of the Tasman Sea as well. Last place I moved out of we threw out half our books and clothes for the mould. I met a Canadian once who said the coldest winter he had ever experienced was in Australia, in a shitty rental house. A Canadian!
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:56 AM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:56 AM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
I met a Canadian once who said the coldest winter he had ever experienced was in Australia, in a shitty rental house. A Canadian!
To be fair, that doesn't mean much. Very cold (rich, western) countries tend to have superb insulation and heating standards. I'm from Scandinavia and I can assure you I've never had winters as cold as the ones when I lived in Hong Kong. Often 30+ degrees warmer than in Denmark, but still colder inside, because the houses are built primarily to deal with hot summers, not cold winters.
(Conversely, heat waves in Danish housing stock are unbearable, even when that is 10+ degrees cooler than a Hong Kong summer, and incomparably less humid, because Danish houses are built to retain heat.)
Tl;dr: people from very cold countries absolutely will find your heating/insulation standards appalling in less cold countries, even if they are prefectly suited to your actual climate.
posted by Dysk at 4:30 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
To be fair, that doesn't mean much. Very cold (rich, western) countries tend to have superb insulation and heating standards. I'm from Scandinavia and I can assure you I've never had winters as cold as the ones when I lived in Hong Kong. Often 30+ degrees warmer than in Denmark, but still colder inside, because the houses are built primarily to deal with hot summers, not cold winters.
(Conversely, heat waves in Danish housing stock are unbearable, even when that is 10+ degrees cooler than a Hong Kong summer, and incomparably less humid, because Danish houses are built to retain heat.)
Tl;dr: people from very cold countries absolutely will find your heating/insulation standards appalling in less cold countries, even if they are prefectly suited to your actual climate.
posted by Dysk at 4:30 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
Though of course, it can also be true that Australian insulation and heating aren't up to a reasonable standard with regard to Australian climate, but a Canadian feeling cold during an Aussie winter isn't evidence of that.
posted by Dysk at 4:37 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:37 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
See also the old Mark Twain line about how the coldest winter he ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:43 AM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:43 AM on October 5, 2020 [9 favorites]
I'm kind of happy to see rental regulation getting stricter, some of the changes seem quite mind blowing. I've come into possession of a property by happenstance (not out of any desire to own one) but I've found when attempting to rent it out I would have to comply with far stricter standards than what I do for my own home! In fact many of the fittings I've put in recently would be superior to the ones in the home I live in...
For example, there must be a licensed technician that comes in to test and replace the batteries in the smoke alarms once per year. I've never done so in 10 years of living here. A licensed tech that comes to do maintenance on the gas heater and do a carbon monoxide check every 1-2 years. Again I've done this maybe once in 10 years. All exterior windows must be lockable. What? None of my windows have locks, they just latch shut, like normal windows.
I mean if my tenant wanted some improvement to the property, why not, it's all tax deductible at marginal rate and I own it anyway, I'd do it and amortize the cost.
posted by xdvesper at 4:45 AM on October 5, 2020
For example, there must be a licensed technician that comes in to test and replace the batteries in the smoke alarms once per year. I've never done so in 10 years of living here. A licensed tech that comes to do maintenance on the gas heater and do a carbon monoxide check every 1-2 years. Again I've done this maybe once in 10 years. All exterior windows must be lockable. What? None of my windows have locks, they just latch shut, like normal windows.
I mean if my tenant wanted some improvement to the property, why not, it's all tax deductible at marginal rate and I own it anyway, I'd do it and amortize the cost.
posted by xdvesper at 4:45 AM on October 5, 2020
See also the old Mark Twain line about how the coldest winter he ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.Not a Twain line.
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 5:20 AM on October 5, 2020 [4 favorites]
There's a possible issue about whether this makes NZ properties low hanging fruit in terms of improving energy efficiency and sticking in the right sized low carbon heating system at the same time. Probably not though. UK costs for retrofit of such an approach at about 5x putting it in a new build. Lack of central heating in so many properties though, means it can be tied to improving comfort, and of course health, based on the links.
posted by biffa at 5:40 AM on October 5, 2020
posted by biffa at 5:40 AM on October 5, 2020
I met a Canadian once who said the coldest winter he had ever experienced was in Australia
Totally believable to me siting in Ottawa. We put what seems like a crazy amount of tech into our houses to stay warm and to defend against interior dew points (where condensation happens essentially). Canadian houses are increasingly going toward full humidity control as well as heat control. I assume other northern countries do the same. Code here is aimed at creating essentially a uniform bubble environment that varies by less than 5C and 20% relative humidity over the course of a year that goes from -30C to +40C, usually through a central furnace and ac tied to a forced air system. And of course significant wall, window and roof insulation.
The worst winters (and summers) I've experienced are in places like Louisiana and the UK where the idea of whole-home heat and air conditioning is viewed as massive overkill.
posted by bonehead at 6:21 AM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
Totally believable to me siting in Ottawa. We put what seems like a crazy amount of tech into our houses to stay warm and to defend against interior dew points (where condensation happens essentially). Canadian houses are increasingly going toward full humidity control as well as heat control. I assume other northern countries do the same. Code here is aimed at creating essentially a uniform bubble environment that varies by less than 5C and 20% relative humidity over the course of a year that goes from -30C to +40C, usually through a central furnace and ac tied to a forced air system. And of course significant wall, window and roof insulation.
The worst winters (and summers) I've experienced are in places like Louisiana and the UK where the idea of whole-home heat and air conditioning is viewed as massive overkill.
posted by bonehead at 6:21 AM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
I've found when attempting to rent it out I would have to comply with far stricter standards than what I do for my own home!I have no idea whether the particular standards are appropriate, but it seems to me that it's fine that the standards are stricter than what you do for your own home. What you do for your own home is to some extent a matter of personal preference, and what you do as a landlord is part of an economic relationship that is inherently unequal. Economic relationships, especially unequal ones, are typically regulated more than personal behavior. (At least, that's how it works in half-way functional societies. If your government is regulating your personal behavior more than your economic relationships, that's a sign that something is very wrong.) If you opened a restaurant, you would find that the standards for a commercial kitchen are probably stricter than what you do in your home kitchen. If you hire someone to do something for you, you will find that their work is subject to regulations that are far more stringent than if you just did it yourself. If that's a problem for you, that may be a signal that it's time to sell your property rather than being a landlord.
Meanwhile, one of the nation's largest real estate companies has come down vocally on the side of the tenants.That makes me a little wary, because my sense is that sometimes this kind of regulation ends up helping big companies, which have the capital to make improvements that might be too much for smaller operations to finance.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:38 AM on October 5, 2020 [25 favorites]
The actual housing situation was one of the bigger items on the “cons” list for the family when I got a so-so job offer in NZ a few years back (but given recent events, that all seems kinda trivial now).
I’m really good at installing bat, and blow in insulation on the cheap, as well as general home sealing and weatherization. Does that give me any more points on an immigration score? The PNW is real similar to lots of NZ weather; I got what you need NZ. The good stuff.
In all seriousness though, I’m really surprised that legislation like this wouldn’t be tied With incentives on the expansion of domestically sourced insulation to provide local jobs and hopefully make it cheaper than relying on imports. Scuttlebutt is you kiwis have a fair number of sheep kicking around; would incentives set in place to use some of that (or more) of that wool for insulation production? The stuff does need processing in specific ways, but totally works well and is considered a legit natural-ish alternative to blown fiberglass (and less itchy too).
posted by furnace.heart at 7:10 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I’m really good at installing bat, and blow in insulation on the cheap, as well as general home sealing and weatherization. Does that give me any more points on an immigration score? The PNW is real similar to lots of NZ weather; I got what you need NZ. The good stuff.
In all seriousness though, I’m really surprised that legislation like this wouldn’t be tied With incentives on the expansion of domestically sourced insulation to provide local jobs and hopefully make it cheaper than relying on imports. Scuttlebutt is you kiwis have a fair number of sheep kicking around; would incentives set in place to use some of that (or more) of that wool for insulation production? The stuff does need processing in specific ways, but totally works well and is considered a legit natural-ish alternative to blown fiberglass (and less itchy too).
posted by furnace.heart at 7:10 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I still remember sitting in my flat in Dunedin, early one winter, wrapped in a blanket and feeling very cold and damp - until one of my flatmates (housemates) pointed out it was quite warm out. Yes, the houses are that bad. The NZ building code was changed a few years ago to require a certain level of insulation but anecdotally this is insufficient for many parts of the country. In addition, the legislation doesn't seem to require retrofitting homes that fell well below the standard.
posted by piyushnz at 7:25 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by piyushnz at 7:25 AM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
I remember having to walk around with two jerseys and a hot-water bottle in my family home in NZ, and that was a relatively well built house with near all day sun (well what passed for sun) on days when it was well above freezing (like 6-10c). I can only remember one house in the neighborhood that had something like central heating. Cultural reasons (one part among many) play as well - my mum still lives in that house and still only turns a heater on when she enters a room and then turns it off even if she's leaving the room for a few minutes to make a cup of tea (which being NZ is about 6 times an hour) - and wonders why its freaking cold all the time. And her biggest objection to coming to visit in the US (prior to Covid) is that condensation on her windows wouldn't be wiped away every day and would flood the place while she was gone....and it was actually a somewhat legitimate concern....last time she visited my sister would go over daily to her house and change the collection towels on the window sills.
My house here in Utah mountains I walk around inside in shorts, a long sleeve t-shirt, and bare feet even when it is minus 20C outside, with minimal heating. It's staggering what double glazing and proper insulation does (especially given low humidity)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:25 AM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
My house here in Utah mountains I walk around inside in shorts, a long sleeve t-shirt, and bare feet even when it is minus 20C outside, with minimal heating. It's staggering what double glazing and proper insulation does (especially given low humidity)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:25 AM on October 5, 2020 [7 favorites]
I remember our house on the North Island always being quite cold in the winter, had no idea so many houses in NZ were uninsulated I thought it was just that house.
I have no idea whether the particular standards are appropriate, but it seems to me that it's fine that the standards are stricter than what you do for your own home. What you do for your own home is to some extent a matter of personal preference, and what you do as a landlord is part of an economic relationship that is inherently unequal.
Yeah, whenever the payer of energy bills and the owner of the property are not the same person, there is an economically inefficient situation which will lead to under-insulation. Landlord mandates are the easiest way to fix that and given the way rents work in practice won't even really affect their returns which will actually go up in aggregate. (That's because the proportion of output that landlords hoover up is just based on market dynamics and an economically efficient decision such as reducing heating bills + reducing illness by investing in insulation will increase total output.)
Meanwhile, one of the nation's largest real estate companies has come down vocally on the side of the tenants.
They're specifically property managers though so its not their money required to bring properties up to standard but it is a cost they incur when people call them to complain about cold and damp properties.
posted by atrazine at 8:26 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I have no idea whether the particular standards are appropriate, but it seems to me that it's fine that the standards are stricter than what you do for your own home. What you do for your own home is to some extent a matter of personal preference, and what you do as a landlord is part of an economic relationship that is inherently unequal.
Yeah, whenever the payer of energy bills and the owner of the property are not the same person, there is an economically inefficient situation which will lead to under-insulation. Landlord mandates are the easiest way to fix that and given the way rents work in practice won't even really affect their returns which will actually go up in aggregate. (That's because the proportion of output that landlords hoover up is just based on market dynamics and an economically efficient decision such as reducing heating bills + reducing illness by investing in insulation will increase total output.)
Meanwhile, one of the nation's largest real estate companies has come down vocally on the side of the tenants.
They're specifically property managers though so its not their money required to bring properties up to standard but it is a cost they incur when people call them to complain about cold and damp properties.
posted by atrazine at 8:26 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't say this to in any way play down the serious physical health effects of living in cold, damp conditions, but it's also worth noting -- not being able to get warm and dry fucks with your head something awful. I still have light trauma responses to being in cold places for a long time. (I couldn't deal with my company's unheated office the winter before last yes that's right. No heat at all outside of ineffective space heaters. Talk about fucked-up landlords in a market with too much demand and not enough supply.) A lot of that goes back to living in an apartment in Philadephia where the heat was broken half the winter and didn't work particularly well when it got fixed, thanks to a total lack of insulation. But I also have really strong memories of living in a series of damp, cold flats in Cardiff. One of them had black mould on my bedroom wall for most of the time I lived there. I clearly remember thinking that I'd know I'd made it when I could turn the heat on whenever I liked, and be warm in winter.
So, yeah. Bad memories, and fuck landlords who are all right with creating sick, traumatized people.
posted by kalimac at 8:32 AM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
So, yeah. Bad memories, and fuck landlords who are all right with creating sick, traumatized people.
posted by kalimac at 8:32 AM on October 5, 2020 [6 favorites]
→
Lemme guess: the old code was probably based on a British one before widespread central heating? Happens a lot in former colonies. Most of Canada gets too damn code for a British design to be remotely useful, but there are whole swathes of old stock housing in Ontario that could be in Glasgow.
posted by scruss at 8:36 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
The NZ building code was changed a few years ago to require a certain level of insulation
Lemme guess: the old code was probably based on a British one before widespread central heating? Happens a lot in former colonies. Most of Canada gets too damn code for a British design to be remotely useful, but there are whole swathes of old stock housing in Ontario that could be in Glasgow.
posted by scruss at 8:36 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
especially given low humidity
Probably has more to do with having an HRV or an ERV on the furnace vent. Or even a cheap humidifier on the plenum.
posted by bonehead at 9:02 AM on October 5, 2020
Probably has more to do with having an HRV or an ERV on the furnace vent. Or even a cheap humidifier on the plenum.
posted by bonehead at 9:02 AM on October 5, 2020
Ridiculous. For the older homes *force* the landlords to blow at least 8-10 inches of insulation into the ceilings (the walls would be much more costly) - and get rid of drafts.
That'll make it affordable for tenants to get their homes a few degrees warmer, and save a lot on energy and medical bills.
posted by Twang at 9:06 AM on October 5, 2020
That'll make it affordable for tenants to get their homes a few degrees warmer, and save a lot on energy and medical bills.
posted by Twang at 9:06 AM on October 5, 2020
I have a somewhat right-wing acquittance back in NZ on Facebook who is outraged that you'd impose costs on landlords rather than letting the market decide, and likes to tell stories about how putting bubblewrap on the windows of their university flat in the Aro Valley was good enough then, so it should be good enough now. The fact they work as a policy analyst at 1 The Terrace in Wellington should come as no surprise to anyone.....
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:28 AM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:28 AM on October 5, 2020 [10 favorites]
The worst winters (and summers) I've experienced are in places like Louisiana and the UK where the idea of whole-home heat and air conditioning is viewed as massive overkill.
I'm assuming you're saying UK summers were awful? Or if it's the winters as well, I'd like to point out that central heating is very commonplace, even standard in the UK (though even basic insulation is sorely lacking - lots and lots of single glazing still around). I see the idea that British homes don't have central heating quite often on mefi, and it is wrong.
posted by Dysk at 9:50 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm assuming you're saying UK summers were awful? Or if it's the winters as well, I'd like to point out that central heating is very commonplace, even standard in the UK (though even basic insulation is sorely lacking - lots and lots of single glazing still around). I see the idea that British homes don't have central heating quite often on mefi, and it is wrong.
posted by Dysk at 9:50 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
The heating isn't good, often not even adequate, but there is still central heating in 95% of homes as of 2018.
posted by Dysk at 9:51 AM on October 5, 2020
posted by Dysk at 9:51 AM on October 5, 2020
Probably has more to do with having an HRV or an ERV on the furnace vent. Or even a cheap humidifier on the plenum.
Possible though all the heating comes from zone based underfloor radiant heat from a hot-water furnace, and two simple gas fireplaces on thermostats, and there is no forced air ventilation. I haven't seen anything that looks like an HRV/ERV or a humidifier but admittedly I have close to zero knowledge of HVAC (had not even heard the term until I left NZ...). But is it ever dry in Utah in Winter....zap zap static zap.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:22 AM on October 5, 2020
Possible though all the heating comes from zone based underfloor radiant heat from a hot-water furnace, and two simple gas fireplaces on thermostats, and there is no forced air ventilation. I haven't seen anything that looks like an HRV/ERV or a humidifier but admittedly I have close to zero knowledge of HVAC (had not even heard the term until I left NZ...). But is it ever dry in Utah in Winter....zap zap static zap.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:22 AM on October 5, 2020
The heating isn't good, often not even adequate
I don't know what it is about the UK, but every time I go back to visit my parents in winter, I experience a damp cold that snakes its way through any clothing you may be wearing and settles in your bones. I live in Vancouver, which is not particularly warmer, is also damp and humid, and also has the sort of temperate climate which means that the apartments are not particularly suitable for withstanding extremes of temperature, so I'm not sure what the major differences are - but there's something!.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:36 AM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
I don't know what it is about the UK, but every time I go back to visit my parents in winter, I experience a damp cold that snakes its way through any clothing you may be wearing and settles in your bones. I live in Vancouver, which is not particularly warmer, is also damp and humid, and also has the sort of temperate climate which means that the apartments are not particularly suitable for withstanding extremes of temperature, so I'm not sure what the major differences are - but there's something!.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:36 AM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think dampness and mold are bad, but I'm sitting comfortably in my kitchen in shorts, a t-shirt, and sandals with the thermometer at 58 °F, and I think that's one of the big reasons I can eat as much as I want without gaining weight, along with having other benefits of an active metabolism.
posted by jamjam at 10:42 AM on October 5, 2020
posted by jamjam at 10:42 AM on October 5, 2020
Most of Canada gets too damn code for a British design to be remotely useful, but there are whole swathes of old stock housing in Ontario that could be in Glasgow.
That's always going to be a problem. The first what we would consider building codes only started appearing in the 1850s and they of course only addressed the most egregious shortcomings. Building codes have to evolve and get better over time, it is impossible (or at least it has never happened) to have one spring forth fully formed and comprehensive from nothing. If for no other reason than too much change can't be absorbed by trades. Many of the "Glasgowian" housing would have been built before even semi modern codes existed and there is very little mandate to force updating in Canada/USA.
Does "central heating" mean different things different places. Here in Canada it means a single heat source distributed through the house. However there are plenty of distributed systems that are as good or arguably better than central systems. The most basic being electric base boards which are quiet, cheap and zonable (however electricity remains much more expensive than gas). Other non central systems/components include gas fire places, mini split heat pumps and some hydronic in floor heat systems (and whack stuff like electric ceilings).
posted by Mitheral at 10:58 AM on October 5, 2020
That's always going to be a problem. The first what we would consider building codes only started appearing in the 1850s and they of course only addressed the most egregious shortcomings. Building codes have to evolve and get better over time, it is impossible (or at least it has never happened) to have one spring forth fully formed and comprehensive from nothing. If for no other reason than too much change can't be absorbed by trades. Many of the "Glasgowian" housing would have been built before even semi modern codes existed and there is very little mandate to force updating in Canada/USA.
Does "central heating" mean different things different places. Here in Canada it means a single heat source distributed through the house. However there are plenty of distributed systems that are as good or arguably better than central systems. The most basic being electric base boards which are quiet, cheap and zonable (however electricity remains much more expensive than gas). Other non central systems/components include gas fire places, mini split heat pumps and some hydronic in floor heat systems (and whack stuff like electric ceilings).
posted by Mitheral at 10:58 AM on October 5, 2020
Interesting. I wonder if any 'Look at the Kiwis, and their exemplary low per capita energy consumption!' is offset by 'Yeh, 'cuz 1/3 of homes don't have heat!'
I also wonder what the NZ style solution is/will/would be.
A good start would be stuffing the walls and roof with sheep.
Or barring that, waste wool.
For those who don't know HRV/ERV, (Heat- or Energy Recovering Ventilation) it's Maxwell's Demon, but for indoor air temperature. Say you have a bungalow, with a hot attic and a cool cellar. You put a duct into and out of each of those spaces (not big metal crawlable vents, just flexible hose, of the type that you might slip over your arms and then flop them around making robot noises). Those hoses all connect to a central fan box.
When it's too hot, you tell it to swap cold air from the cellar into the living space until the two have reached equilibrium. Too cold, you move the hot air from the attic and replace it with the cold air from the living space until there's no more differential to exploit.
While you're at it, you can add or subtract humidity from the air you're moving through the box; sometimes even extracting a degree or two from that moisture itself.
The idea being Hey Hey Hey, before introducing large additional energy inputs, first reach equilibrium between the hot side and the cold side of the same space. You can power that with just a fan, rather than burning dinosaurs or trees. Pair that with, say, a solar hot water tank, or water pipes buried deep in cool earth, and you've got your indoor air several degrees warmer or cooler, while consuming only enough energy to circulate it - no actual heat added until after all the differentials have already been exploited.
posted by bartleby at 11:30 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
I also wonder what the NZ style solution is/will/would be.
A good start would be stuffing the walls and roof with sheep.
Or barring that, waste wool.
For those who don't know HRV/ERV, (Heat- or Energy Recovering Ventilation) it's Maxwell's Demon, but for indoor air temperature. Say you have a bungalow, with a hot attic and a cool cellar. You put a duct into and out of each of those spaces (not big metal crawlable vents, just flexible hose, of the type that you might slip over your arms and then flop them around making robot noises). Those hoses all connect to a central fan box.
When it's too hot, you tell it to swap cold air from the cellar into the living space until the two have reached equilibrium. Too cold, you move the hot air from the attic and replace it with the cold air from the living space until there's no more differential to exploit.
While you're at it, you can add or subtract humidity from the air you're moving through the box; sometimes even extracting a degree or two from that moisture itself.
The idea being Hey Hey Hey, before introducing large additional energy inputs, first reach equilibrium between the hot side and the cold side of the same space. You can power that with just a fan, rather than burning dinosaurs or trees. Pair that with, say, a solar hot water tank, or water pipes buried deep in cool earth, and you've got your indoor air several degrees warmer or cooler, while consuming only enough energy to circulate it - no actual heat added until after all the differentials have already been exploited.
posted by bartleby at 11:30 AM on October 5, 2020 [8 favorites]
Dyer put the blame for the debacle on both Labour and National, both of which governed New Zealand by turns through the 1987 to late 2000s during which a neo-liberal agenda of de-regulation saw untested building products and techniques flood the market.
It also caused a massive de-skilling of builders resulting from the closure of government-run technical training bodies.
I was wondering why the leaky homes were from such a specific era.
posted by clew at 11:43 AM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
It also caused a massive de-skilling of builders resulting from the closure of government-run technical training bodies.
I was wondering why the leaky homes were from such a specific era.
posted by clew at 11:43 AM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
The US PNW had problems with indoors condensation when houses became more airtight - we spend a lot of spring and fall with low heating demand* so we don’t much dry out the indoors air as a side-effect, and experience from the Eastern and Midwestern US just hadn’t thought of that as a case. But the NZ houses are also literally leaking from outside!?!! Into the wall cavities?!??
*especially by remembering-the-energy-crisis standards. Why should the house be in a 5deg band all year for most people? There’s at least a 15deg change in comfort you can get to with seasonal clothing.
posted by clew at 11:52 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
*especially by remembering-the-energy-crisis standards. Why should the house be in a 5deg band all year for most people? There’s at least a 15deg change in comfort you can get to with seasonal clothing.
posted by clew at 11:52 AM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's not unusual for builders to get overly exuberant about new building techniques that save them money while nominally being better for the resident. BC had a serious problem with condos destroying themselves from the outside in because cladding wasn't actually repelling rain water away from structural wood caused directly by both poor architecture and incorrect detailing of innovated product.
And the recent tower fire in England was at least in part caused by poor detailing.
posted by Mitheral at 12:55 PM on October 5, 2020
And the recent tower fire in England was at least in part caused by poor detailing.
posted by Mitheral at 12:55 PM on October 5, 2020
The articles talk about the older housing stock, but do they go into the reason why the housing stock was built the way it was?
Where I am, the first wave of suburbs were made of relatively well-built housing that was poorly insulated.
This was because of the mild climate, but more importantly, in the mid part of last century, electricity was dirt cheap. So all the houses had electric heat and leaky windows, but it didn't matter.
If it got really cold (say, below 40F), you just fired up your smoky old wood stove.
Consequently, with electricity being much more expensive and wood stoves banned a lot of the year, we now have a lot of housing stock that suffers much the same problems as NZ (mold, drafts, etc).
How did NZ end up in the same predicament? Is there a culture of quick-building shoddy houses solely for rent? Was it housing designs from one part of the country being poorly adapted for another part?
posted by madajb at 1:01 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Where I am, the first wave of suburbs were made of relatively well-built housing that was poorly insulated.
This was because of the mild climate, but more importantly, in the mid part of last century, electricity was dirt cheap. So all the houses had electric heat and leaky windows, but it didn't matter.
If it got really cold (say, below 40F), you just fired up your smoky old wood stove.
Consequently, with electricity being much more expensive and wood stoves banned a lot of the year, we now have a lot of housing stock that suffers much the same problems as NZ (mold, drafts, etc).
How did NZ end up in the same predicament? Is there a culture of quick-building shoddy houses solely for rent? Was it housing designs from one part of the country being poorly adapted for another part?
posted by madajb at 1:01 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
I have a couple of relatives who moved to NZ intending to stay permanently, even building a home there. They got in such fights with builders over what they said was shoddy work and insufficient build standards that they ended up selling the property and leaving NZ. I’d assumed my relatives were being unreasonable but this thread has me rethinking that.
posted by cali at 1:07 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by cali at 1:07 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
I visited many owner-built hippie structures in the 1980s that were suffering from misplaced optimism and wandering damp- building is hard even without cross-incentives!
I worry about so many buildings having gone up at once in Seattle with newish construction standards, because everybody knows that skilled labor and skilled inspectors are both in short supply so if there’s a mistake in the new stuff, or something that works but only if it’s installed and maintained perfectly, a lot of housing is going to suffer it at once, as in NZ.
posted by clew at 1:08 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I worry about so many buildings having gone up at once in Seattle with newish construction standards, because everybody knows that skilled labor and skilled inspectors are both in short supply so if there’s a mistake in the new stuff, or something that works but only if it’s installed and maintained perfectly, a lot of housing is going to suffer it at once, as in NZ.
posted by clew at 1:08 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't know what it is about the UK, but every time I go back to visit my parents in winter, I experience a damp cold that snakes its way through any clothing you may be wearing and settles in your bones.
It's the temperature and humidity. Just a small handful of degrees either side of freezing (but especially above) means the air stays humid, and that humidity makes the cold feel worse. If you're somewhere that isn't humid in winter, it it drops to minus three or four (centigrade) you get a much drier cold which you can insulate from. Any decent insulation plus heating (the former is what effectively all UK homes lack, relative to the climate) will dry out interior spaces.
posted by Dysk at 2:01 PM on October 5, 2020
It's the temperature and humidity. Just a small handful of degrees either side of freezing (but especially above) means the air stays humid, and that humidity makes the cold feel worse. If you're somewhere that isn't humid in winter, it it drops to minus three or four (centigrade) you get a much drier cold which you can insulate from. Any decent insulation plus heating (the former is what effectively all UK homes lack, relative to the climate) will dry out interior spaces.
posted by Dysk at 2:01 PM on October 5, 2020
I've lived in multiple 100+ y/o buildings in Chicago that are warmer, less drafty, and dryer than when I lived in Auckland. Better plumbing too. At one point I had mould growing on clothes hanging on an open rack in my bedroom, it was that damp in winter. These days it seems a lot better- far more HRV and mini split heater/AC units around, and the general state of insulation has gone up. But old rentals are still shitty and drafty, because the landlords are happy to sit there counting their 200+% capital gains over the last 10-15 years while denying there's a problem.
posted by Jobst at 2:02 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Jobst at 2:02 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
When I moved into my current flat I found out - the hard way - that my bedroom window created intense condensation. By mid-afternoon in winter it was warmer outside than inside. I've never dealt with that so I figured I was doing something wrong. Making sure blinds were opened, no real change. Window open - freezing wind and no change. Wiping the walls and window with vinegar every week - stinky and no real change. I ended up buying silicon sealer and doing the frame inside which did help but didn't stop the condensation.
I cannot effect the structural changes needed to make this house sustainable. I had mould in the wardrobe on the other side of my room, and also in my kitchen because the overhead isn't ducted outside. Yes I can wipe down walls every week but I'd much rather not do that. Added is the false ceiling in the bathroom with no fan - again I open the window but it's cold in winter and doesn't actually change a whole lot. I can't reinstall the ceiling, regrout and seal the shower. I changed the showerhead so I can at least clean the shower-bath without needing a bucket (reaching the top parts is difficult to say the least) but I can't do anything about the design.
It is a very nice old flat otherwise. Big, neat, good position, but years of terrible low quality work are things I can't fix. The countertops are all the worst quality nonsense warping everywhere because they are bare chipboard underneath (not sure if they came that way or the laminate peeled off) and again, I cannot fix it. The landlord has to. Even the silicon sealing was actually contravened by my lease but I didn't want to deal with inspections and workers during a pandemic. When I finally had an inspection the real estate worker was horrified at the structural issues (esp the bathroom) but I haven't had any feedback at all. It was made more difficult since I had cleaned and done what I could so there wasn't a giant wall of mould to show anyone.
Having come from a startlingly well designed and insulated home that I owned, dealing with it has been irritating to say the least. I know what needs to happen but I literally cannot replace windows with double glazing, or install decent ducted fans for humid areas, or even technically the little things I have done like the sealant and the showerhead. I'm in the position of paying money to live in a place where any repairs or improvements are controlled by someone who can ignore it. Yeah I get inspections of my smoke detector (singular, nowhere near the kitchen) and to make sure I'm not trashing the house. Those are regulatory though. Not done to maintain structural integrity or liveability.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:47 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
I cannot effect the structural changes needed to make this house sustainable. I had mould in the wardrobe on the other side of my room, and also in my kitchen because the overhead isn't ducted outside. Yes I can wipe down walls every week but I'd much rather not do that. Added is the false ceiling in the bathroom with no fan - again I open the window but it's cold in winter and doesn't actually change a whole lot. I can't reinstall the ceiling, regrout and seal the shower. I changed the showerhead so I can at least clean the shower-bath without needing a bucket (reaching the top parts is difficult to say the least) but I can't do anything about the design.
It is a very nice old flat otherwise. Big, neat, good position, but years of terrible low quality work are things I can't fix. The countertops are all the worst quality nonsense warping everywhere because they are bare chipboard underneath (not sure if they came that way or the laminate peeled off) and again, I cannot fix it. The landlord has to. Even the silicon sealing was actually contravened by my lease but I didn't want to deal with inspections and workers during a pandemic. When I finally had an inspection the real estate worker was horrified at the structural issues (esp the bathroom) but I haven't had any feedback at all. It was made more difficult since I had cleaned and done what I could so there wasn't a giant wall of mould to show anyone.
Having come from a startlingly well designed and insulated home that I owned, dealing with it has been irritating to say the least. I know what needs to happen but I literally cannot replace windows with double glazing, or install decent ducted fans for humid areas, or even technically the little things I have done like the sealant and the showerhead. I'm in the position of paying money to live in a place where any repairs or improvements are controlled by someone who can ignore it. Yeah I get inspections of my smoke detector (singular, nowhere near the kitchen) and to make sure I'm not trashing the house. Those are regulatory though. Not done to maintain structural integrity or liveability.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:47 PM on October 5, 2020 [3 favorites]
Aaah, geek anachronism.
I’ve been thinking about how much extra you would have to heat a leaky house to get it warm - a lot of the energy is going to evaporate water into the dwelling space, probably speeding up mold growth. And some of the pictures showed wet framing wood directly on wet crawl space earth so you’d be trying to wick the ground dry which is not going to happen. No wonder people just leave the heat low! Agh!
posted by clew at 2:57 PM on October 5, 2020
I’ve been thinking about how much extra you would have to heat a leaky house to get it warm - a lot of the energy is going to evaporate water into the dwelling space, probably speeding up mold growth. And some of the pictures showed wet framing wood directly on wet crawl space earth so you’d be trying to wick the ground dry which is not going to happen. No wonder people just leave the heat low! Agh!
posted by clew at 2:57 PM on October 5, 2020
I grew up in Chicago, also in a 100+ year old brownstone, that was dry and warm, even without double-glazing on some of the big, single pane sash windows. Eventually, I found a decent rental in Wellington, but it took me years. Windy, drafty, wet -- poor construction and I'd swear a strange belief that NZ was a tropical country. I couldn't explain the housing design otherwise.
My final rental property was an old cottage in Roseneath, a suburb of Welly. It has good insulation, new roof, windows that sealed, and gas heaters in the two reception rooms. But because of the gas heaters, I had to run a dehumidifier to keep the place dry. Yeah, clew, my winter utilities bill were through the roof; almost as much as a week's rent.
Since then, I've bought two rental properties, and a home purchased with my partner. I've replaced their roofs, painted the exteriors, marine stainless steel fittings for the windows (no more rusty windows, ever again), insulation from Sustainability Trust above and below, heat pumps in main rooms . . . . the list goes on and on. I finished the upgrades a year or so before the Act passed, and I'm glad I did because tradies were hard to find after that. Yeah, I spent boatloads of money, but my tenants are happy, the houses are healthy, and I think it's because I grew up in well-cared for rental housing stock. I bought those houses almost 7 years ago; still on my original tenants.
I won't go into what we did to get our home up to the spec I am comfortable with. All I'll say is that it took four months with a small army of tradies and vendors. Luckily, we got the entire house double-glazed.
posted by lemon_icing at 3:22 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
My final rental property was an old cottage in Roseneath, a suburb of Welly. It has good insulation, new roof, windows that sealed, and gas heaters in the two reception rooms. But because of the gas heaters, I had to run a dehumidifier to keep the place dry. Yeah, clew, my winter utilities bill were through the roof; almost as much as a week's rent.
Since then, I've bought two rental properties, and a home purchased with my partner. I've replaced their roofs, painted the exteriors, marine stainless steel fittings for the windows (no more rusty windows, ever again), insulation from Sustainability Trust above and below, heat pumps in main rooms . . . . the list goes on and on. I finished the upgrades a year or so before the Act passed, and I'm glad I did because tradies were hard to find after that. Yeah, I spent boatloads of money, but my tenants are happy, the houses are healthy, and I think it's because I grew up in well-cared for rental housing stock. I bought those houses almost 7 years ago; still on my original tenants.
I won't go into what we did to get our home up to the spec I am comfortable with. All I'll say is that it took four months with a small army of tradies and vendors. Luckily, we got the entire house double-glazed.
posted by lemon_icing at 3:22 PM on October 5, 2020 [5 favorites]
I don't know how it is outside of Wellington, but a lot of rental stock around us went up for sale in the last year. We suspect landlords do not want to invest the time and money to bring their properties up to code.
posted by lemon_icing at 3:35 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by lemon_icing at 3:35 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I met a Canadian once who said the coldest winter he had ever experienced was in Australia, in a shitty rental house. A Canadian!
To be fair, that doesn't mean much. Very cold (rich, western) countries tend to have superb insulation and heating standards.
Can vouch for some of this. I'm Canadian and I never actually saw winter drafts move curtains until I lived in England.
posted by srboisvert at 5:27 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
To be fair, that doesn't mean much. Very cold (rich, western) countries tend to have superb insulation and heating standards.
Can vouch for some of this. I'm Canadian and I never actually saw winter drafts move curtains until I lived in England.
posted by srboisvert at 5:27 PM on October 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I worry about so many buildings having gone up at once in Seattle with newish construction standards, because everybody knows that skilled labor and skilled inspectors are both in short supply so if there’s a mistake in the new stuff, or something that works but only if it’s installed and maintained perfectly, a lot of housing is going to suffer it at once, as in NZ.
Take a look at Vancouver, BC's condo stock. A lot of people got burned buying condos in buildings that were designed to Toronto standards that could not withstand the humidity of being on the Pacific coast during the construction boom of the nineties. Big time mould problems abound and those are not cheap to fix in high-rises. Say hello to emergency assessments.
posted by srboisvert at 5:36 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Take a look at Vancouver, BC's condo stock. A lot of people got burned buying condos in buildings that were designed to Toronto standards that could not withstand the humidity of being on the Pacific coast during the construction boom of the nineties. Big time mould problems abound and those are not cheap to fix in high-rises. Say hello to emergency assessments.
posted by srboisvert at 5:36 PM on October 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
There was a metafilter post about the sizing of steam heating post 1918 flu pandemic which explained a phenomena of over heating I always wondered about. (If you missed it basically heating was sized so that you could have all the windows open for hygienic ventilation and still be comfortable in the dead of winter.) That post got me to this Dan Holohan guy whose lecturettes I have enjoyed quite a bit. One of his pithy epiphanies is that people didn't know they were miserable until "modern" heating was invented. The concept of bringing a summers day inside in during the coldest winter was amazing at one time now it is almost a human right.
posted by Pembquist at 8:31 AM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Pembquist at 8:31 AM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
One of his pithy epiphanies is that people didn't know they were miserable until "modern" heating was invented.
Yes, back in the day people just breathed black mold and mildew and were happy with that. Bloody softies these days...
posted by Dysk at 8:46 AM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yes, back in the day people just breathed black mold and mildew and were happy with that. Bloody softies these days...
posted by Dysk at 8:46 AM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yes, back in the day people just breathed black mold and mildew and were happy with that. Bloody softies these days...
This is not what I said or am saying at all.
posted by Pembquist at 9:14 AM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is not what I said or am saying at all.
posted by Pembquist at 9:14 AM on October 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
scruss - lemme guess, based on British. Yes, essentially, also NZ has this tropical myth while we span 13° of latitude with houses from sea-level to ~1500m. We have hot-humid ~35+ to sub -20°C, harsh fohns to hurricane force south winds, straight from Antarctica.
and until 1978 houses did not require any insulation. Many houses still lack insulation, and whatever gets built is way behind best practice - we also have a govt-protected monopoly (Fletcher Industries) which is the main reason our crappy houses cost twice what a quality house costs in Germany.
And while their are some good owners of rental houses (landlords is a feudal term), we have lots of slum lords. IMO our building code is inherently classist (how can it not be when there has never been a from scratch rewrite ) which perpetuates all these horrible problems.
Most timber is NZ is treated with copper chrome arsenic, or using formaldehyde treated paneling (framing is only borate treated). And there is a very uncritical approach to synthetics. Air quality is poor, and then you have the Black mould.
Fortunately Jacinda's crew are trying to repair things but the right wing are truly evil this time round (little trumpers, open-racists, happy-clappies, open-Q_Anons, small-govt types) and we all hope they don't get in.
posted by unearthed at 2:45 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
and until 1978 houses did not require any insulation. Many houses still lack insulation, and whatever gets built is way behind best practice - we also have a govt-protected monopoly (Fletcher Industries) which is the main reason our crappy houses cost twice what a quality house costs in Germany.
And while their are some good owners of rental houses (landlords is a feudal term), we have lots of slum lords. IMO our building code is inherently classist (how can it not be when there has never been a from scratch rewrite ) which perpetuates all these horrible problems.
Most timber is NZ is treated with copper chrome arsenic, or using formaldehyde treated paneling (framing is only borate treated). And there is a very uncritical approach to synthetics. Air quality is poor, and then you have the Black mould.
Fortunately Jacinda's crew are trying to repair things but the right wing are truly evil this time round (little trumpers, open-racists, happy-clappies, open-Q_Anons, small-govt types) and we all hope they don't get in.
posted by unearthed at 2:45 PM on October 6, 2020 [2 favorites]
Pembquist, you may not be saying it but it is something that is said A LOT here in New Zealand by a certain group. One thing that has surprised me as I've been here unexpectedly much longer term is how normalized it is to wear a down jacket, gloves and a beanie indoors in winter. Again, this is not a tropical region. Some bits of the Northland edge toward subtropical. OTOH Dunedin is on a comparable latitude to the Washington/Oregon border. It snowed there last week. (October is the equivalent to April in the US.)
We have seen a LOT of NZ housing over the past year or so. It is remarkable how many multi-million dollar homes have only one heating unit, which is in the lounge (living room). There is no requirement for homes to have fixed heat right now.
posted by rednikki at 11:40 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
We have seen a LOT of NZ housing over the past year or so. It is remarkable how many multi-million dollar homes have only one heating unit, which is in the lounge (living room). There is no requirement for homes to have fixed heat right now.
posted by rednikki at 11:40 AM on October 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Pembquist, you may not be saying it but it is something that is said A LOT here in New Zealand by a certain group. Well those people are idiots.
I have only been to NZ once, for a little more than a month's vacation so I am really not qualified to sling aspersions at the character of an entire nation state, but that said, I did pick up on a fairly macho cast to the place. I'm not really surprised to hear what you say.
It is sort of interesting that here in the states you might describe the culture as at times bloviating chauvinism and our manliness does take the form of a deadly weapons fetish and a love of violent sports but pretty much we love our comfort.
posted by Pembquist at 2:59 PM on October 7, 2020
I have only been to NZ once, for a little more than a month's vacation so I am really not qualified to sling aspersions at the character of an entire nation state, but that said, I did pick up on a fairly macho cast to the place. I'm not really surprised to hear what you say.
It is sort of interesting that here in the states you might describe the culture as at times bloviating chauvinism and our manliness does take the form of a deadly weapons fetish and a love of violent sports but pretty much we love our comfort.
posted by Pembquist at 2:59 PM on October 7, 2020
This thread made me wonder how Passivhaus has been faring in New Zealand. Seems like there's some, but the FAQs have questions that I haven't seen on US-focused Passivhaus sites like "Isn't this overkill" and "Can you open the windows" (I have no idea why you'd think you couldn't, this is very odd)
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:06 AM on October 8, 2020
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:06 AM on October 8, 2020
well I have *some* idea of why you'd think that, but the fact that I looked at two sites and both had it really stood out as a bit odd
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:10 AM on October 8, 2020
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:10 AM on October 8, 2020
Office buildings near me (in the US) often get inoperable windows during an `energy efficiency retrofit'. The mental association follows. Not elsewhere?
unearthed, how is Fletcher Industries government-protected? Googling makes it clear they're a massively dominant in a bunch of related industries and yet have also lost a ton of money? With government protection? Impressive in a horrible way.
posted by clew at 2:26 PM on October 16, 2020
unearthed, how is Fletcher Industries government-protected? Googling makes it clear they're a massively dominant in a bunch of related industries and yet have also lost a ton of money? With government protection? Impressive in a horrible way.
posted by clew at 2:26 PM on October 16, 2020
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Landlords are the worst. Houses should be homes, not financial vehicles.
posted by Dysk at 2:06 AM on October 5, 2020 [54 favorites]