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October 24, 2020 2:13 AM Subscribe
Despite a poor box office reception to its 2003 premiere, Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World has become a beloved movie, with more in common with classic historical epics than contemporary action thrillers. On its 15th anniversary, producer Duncan Henderson and actor James D’Arcy reminisced about what made the movie special, and the Friendly Fire podcast examined its unusually immersive audio and its ideas of patriotism. Previously.
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This is one of my "warm cup of tea" movies. Whenever I'm not feeling great or just need something unchallenging to watch that'll pull me outside myself, I'll put this on. Think I own three copies by now on physical and digital media.
Bettany and Crowe play their relationship perfectly and that grounds the whole piece.
I'll have to listen to that podcast because a large part of why I love this movie is because I saw it in the cinema and you could hear every creak and jostle of the ship on the water. Amazingly immersive.
posted by slimepuppy at 3:21 AM on October 24, 2020 [16 favorites]
Bettany and Crowe play their relationship perfectly and that grounds the whole piece.
I'll have to listen to that podcast because a large part of why I love this movie is because I saw it in the cinema and you could hear every creak and jostle of the ship on the water. Amazingly immersive.
posted by slimepuppy at 3:21 AM on October 24, 2020 [16 favorites]
It's a great piece of storytelling. Like D'Arcy, I wonder why it didn't do better at the box office, but perhaps a lack of sequels allows this film to stand on its own, as the classic that it is.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:22 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:22 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Love love love this movie so much. I've watched it countless times. I've even cosplayed as Aubrey and taken pictures in front of the movie Surprise in San Diego. I devoured the books a few summers ago. Wonderful series of novels. It's a stunning film. One of my go-to favorite franchises and I'm sad there won't be more films soon.
Years ago I was at Meyer Sound in Berkeley and they'd just finished their incredible demo theater where they showcased their speakers.
To properly demo the room John Meyer played us the opening battle from Master and Commander and it felt like the cannonballs were hitting the bench I was sitting on. Sound design is amazeballs.
posted by asavage at 4:30 AM on October 24, 2020 [20 favorites]
Years ago I was at Meyer Sound in Berkeley and they'd just finished their incredible demo theater where they showcased their speakers.
To properly demo the room John Meyer played us the opening battle from Master and Commander and it felt like the cannonballs were hitting the bench I was sitting on. Sound design is amazeballs.
posted by asavage at 4:30 AM on October 24, 2020 [20 favorites]
It's a tragedy that we didn't get a whole series out of this. FFS, there's 16 Sharpe films. Imagine what could have been.
posted by automatronic at 4:45 AM on October 24, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by automatronic at 4:45 AM on October 24, 2020 [13 favorites]
Count me among those who liked the movie and was hoping for a sequel or several. In these days where it seems the bulk of Hollywood’s output is either remakes or sequels it seems to be a possibility. Although given the current situation overall it’s hard to say what the future holds for the entertainment industry in general.
posted by TedW at 5:04 AM on October 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by TedW at 5:04 AM on October 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
Huh, had no idea it wasn't a hit. I remember seeing it in a theater so packed that we had to sit in the front row.
Great film; Peter Weir is weirdly never talked about as one of the great directors despite making thirty years of amazing films.
posted by octothorpe at 6:01 AM on October 24, 2020 [12 favorites]
Great film; Peter Weir is weirdly never talked about as one of the great directors despite making thirty years of amazing films.
posted by octothorpe at 6:01 AM on October 24, 2020 [12 favorites]
I want an HBO series, one season per book. A lot happens in each novel and the one downside to the film is that it was a graft of two of the novels from drastically different parts of the series, peppered with little character moments and dialogue from the whole novel series. It worked for the film in that it gave a very good flavour of the overall tone of the books, but one of the delights of the novels is seeing how the characters change individually and in their relationships to each other.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:05 AM on October 24, 2020 [26 favorites]
posted by Happy Dave at 6:05 AM on October 24, 2020 [26 favorites]
I'm with Happy Dave. A series would allow for bringing in the women's stories as well, and Stephen Maturin's spycraft. One season per book—twenty seasons—might be a lot to ask for, though.
posted by Orlop at 6:26 AM on October 24, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Orlop at 6:26 AM on October 24, 2020 [6 favorites]
Possibly my favorite movie ever! That script is GENIUS. I got an everlasting crush on Paul Bettany from here. Somehow I even get over my loathing of Russell Crowe only for this movie It's a "unicorn" piece of media showcasing nontoxic masculinity despite having no women in it (but please make more movies so we can have women in them). Every shot and every scene.. hnnnngh. Perfect.
posted by MiraK at 6:39 AM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 6:39 AM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
a tragedy that we didn't get a whole series out of this
but we got superheroes instead!
🙄
posted by j_curiouser at 7:21 AM on October 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
but we got superheroes instead!
🙄
posted by j_curiouser at 7:21 AM on October 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
A glass of wine with you, Sir! It is not a new movie, but at least we have Deleted Scenes.
posted by bouvin at 7:32 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by bouvin at 7:32 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
FFS, there's 16 Sharpe films.
And I'd you don't think they're awesome, you're a bloody Hakeswill.
posted by adamdschneider at 7:41 AM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
And I'd you don't think they're awesome, you're a bloody Hakeswill.
posted by adamdschneider at 7:41 AM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
Peter Weir is weirdly never talked about as one of the great directors
The cinema fans I know hold him in great regard. He produced a cultural touchstone every five years since 1975, with Master and Commander probably his career apex.
Start with Picnic at Hanging Rock, enjoy!
posted by j_curiouser at 8:00 AM on October 24, 2020 [9 favorites]
The cinema fans I know hold him in great regard. He produced a cultural touchstone every five years since 1975, with Master and Commander probably his career apex.
Start with Picnic at Hanging Rock, enjoy!
posted by j_curiouser at 8:00 AM on October 24, 2020 [9 favorites]
The books do get a little odd towards the end, in places, but 15 or so seasons of solid puns about weevils would suffice.
posted by aesop at 8:01 AM on October 24, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by aesop at 8:01 AM on October 24, 2020 [8 favorites]
I dunno, I tried reading the books and just couldn't get behind a series where I was supposed to be identifying with and supporting a naval captain who kidnapped poor people, enslaved them, and used torture to coerce them into waging war for the benefit of the very rich.
Oh, and then the part where he misunderstood that the gay man on his ship might be interested in him, assumed he was raping the young boys enslaved into fighting war, and just short of shrugged and went on because who cares if a sailor is raping young boys, right Jack?
I know it's historically accurate fiction, but I just couldn't get into it. I wanted to see the British Empire burn and Jack Aubrey die horribly before I even got past the first hundred pages and then I quit.
posted by sotonohito at 8:01 AM on October 24, 2020 [7 favorites]
Oh, and then the part where he misunderstood that the gay man on his ship might be interested in him, assumed he was raping the young boys enslaved into fighting war, and just short of shrugged and went on because who cares if a sailor is raping young boys, right Jack?
I know it's historically accurate fiction, but I just couldn't get into it. I wanted to see the British Empire burn and Jack Aubrey die horribly before I even got past the first hundred pages and then I quit.
posted by sotonohito at 8:01 AM on October 24, 2020 [7 favorites]
Thanks to everyone, I just ordered a used copy of this movie.
posted by maxwelton at 8:38 AM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 8:38 AM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
a tragedy that we didn't get a whole series out of this
but we got superheroes instead!
can't favorite this because I hate the situation too much. Not only do I blame this superhero thing for the overall downward trend of Big Deal motion picture entertainment but also Donald Trump, because only a culture lost in a bad time loop of eternal early adolescence could conjure such a specter as the whole damned Trump Thing. As if the gods finally just said fuck it, they've all gone and devolved their so culture so far that only an actual Super Villain will shake them out of it.
shame on us all.
FFS, there's 16 Sharpe films.
The Sharpe films lack budget. Some of them work. Some of them don't. Sharpe's Waterloo is kind of an embarrassment. Go big or go home if you're going to take that monster on. And I notice they didn't even bother with Trafalgar.
posted by philip-random at 8:42 AM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
but we got superheroes instead!
can't favorite this because I hate the situation too much. Not only do I blame this superhero thing for the overall downward trend of Big Deal motion picture entertainment but also Donald Trump, because only a culture lost in a bad time loop of eternal early adolescence could conjure such a specter as the whole damned Trump Thing. As if the gods finally just said fuck it, they've all gone and devolved their so culture so far that only an actual Super Villain will shake them out of it.
shame on us all.
FFS, there's 16 Sharpe films.
The Sharpe films lack budget. Some of them work. Some of them don't. Sharpe's Waterloo is kind of an embarrassment. Go big or go home if you're going to take that monster on. And I notice they didn't even bother with Trafalgar.
posted by philip-random at 8:42 AM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
When my dad was a kid, there was a solid decade or two where every third movie was a cowboy movie. It went away eventually. I’m assuming the superheroes will too at some point.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 AM on October 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 AM on October 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
> I know it's historically accurate fiction, but I just couldn't get into it. I wanted to see the British Empire burn and Jack Aubrey die horribly before I even got past the first hundred pages and then I quit.
there's a lot of 19th century british fiction that i have trouble getting into for similar reasons: like, on every page of every austen novel i find myself hoping that the london rabble will invade the countryside hoisting red and black flags and then messily murder every main character while burning down all the mansion houses. it's just, the "god these people are awful" subtext is kind of what austen novels are about, and there's not anything like the same vibe in the imperial-nostalgic aubrey-maturin novels.
but! i admit that they are fine writing, with good aspects! it's just, whenever i'm tempted to read o'brian i make the rational decision to go watch star trek: the next generation instead. lots of fun aubrey-maturin-esque dynamics, and the characters in that series are working for a relatively decent organization toward relatively decent goals.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:02 AM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
there's a lot of 19th century british fiction that i have trouble getting into for similar reasons: like, on every page of every austen novel i find myself hoping that the london rabble will invade the countryside hoisting red and black flags and then messily murder every main character while burning down all the mansion houses. it's just, the "god these people are awful" subtext is kind of what austen novels are about, and there's not anything like the same vibe in the imperial-nostalgic aubrey-maturin novels.
but! i admit that they are fine writing, with good aspects! it's just, whenever i'm tempted to read o'brian i make the rational decision to go watch star trek: the next generation instead. lots of fun aubrey-maturin-esque dynamics, and the characters in that series are working for a relatively decent organization toward relatively decent goals.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:02 AM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
I remember a lot of people who “should have” liked the movie being reluctant to watch it. The reasons didn’t really make sense at the time to me, especially an unfavorable contrast with Gladiator that hasn’t aged too well, but it obviously affected the box office.
posted by michaelh at 9:26 AM on October 24, 2020
posted by michaelh at 9:26 AM on October 24, 2020
OK. So. In April 2002, there was a South Park episode where Russell Crowe has a TV show where he travels around the world, on a boat, getting in fights. The show-within-a-show is called "Fightin' Around the World with Russell Crowe". It has a theme song, which was just catchy enough.
So, anyway, a few months later, what do I see, but a trailer for this movie, in which Russell Crowe is on a ship, traveling around the world, getting in battles. I enjoyed this movie enough, but I still internally call it "Russell Crowe Fightin' 'Round the World".
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:35 AM on October 24, 2020 [13 favorites]
So, anyway, a few months later, what do I see, but a trailer for this movie, in which Russell Crowe is on a ship, traveling around the world, getting in battles. I enjoyed this movie enough, but I still internally call it "Russell Crowe Fightin' 'Round the World".
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:35 AM on October 24, 2020 [13 favorites]
like, on every page of every austen novel i find myself hoping that the london rabble will invade the countryside hoisting red and black flags and then messily murder every main character while burning down all the mansion houses.
this is how I felt about Four Weddings and a Funeral. And Love Actually now that I think of it. Most so-called rom-coms if I'm to be honest.
posted by philip-random at 9:41 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
this is how I felt about Four Weddings and a Funeral. And Love Actually now that I think of it. Most so-called rom-coms if I'm to be honest.
posted by philip-random at 9:41 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Peter Weir is weirdly never talked about as one of the great directors despite making thirty years of amazing films.
I know what you mean. I think that's likely because there's not as much of a "signature style" to Weir movies per se. He tends to focus on elevating the material and adjusting his directorial approach accordingly. Witness, Dead Poets Society, Truman Show and Master and Commander are all excellent but I don't know if there's anything that would identify them specifically as Weir movies aside from overall quality. Being a fan of Weir's movies is mostly dependent on how much you enjoy the material he's adapting or working with.
Calling it "invisible" directing is doing a disservice but it's the opposite approach to someone like Tarantino who creates/adjusts material to fit his style, not vice versa.
posted by slimepuppy at 10:31 AM on October 24, 2020 [12 favorites]
I know what you mean. I think that's likely because there's not as much of a "signature style" to Weir movies per se. He tends to focus on elevating the material and adjusting his directorial approach accordingly. Witness, Dead Poets Society, Truman Show and Master and Commander are all excellent but I don't know if there's anything that would identify them specifically as Weir movies aside from overall quality. Being a fan of Weir's movies is mostly dependent on how much you enjoy the material he's adapting or working with.
Calling it "invisible" directing is doing a disservice but it's the opposite approach to someone like Tarantino who creates/adjusts material to fit his style, not vice versa.
posted by slimepuppy at 10:31 AM on October 24, 2020 [12 favorites]
Bettany and Crowe play their relationship perfectly and that grounds the whole piece.
I disagree. Russell Crowe made an excellent Capt. Aubrey, but unfortunately Paul Bettany portrayed Dr. Maturin as rather subordinate, instead of the true match for Aubrey he is in the books (although I attribute this more to the script and direction than to the actor).
posted by fairmettle at 10:48 AM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
I disagree. Russell Crowe made an excellent Capt. Aubrey, but unfortunately Paul Bettany portrayed Dr. Maturin as rather subordinate, instead of the true match for Aubrey he is in the books (although I attribute this more to the script and direction than to the actor).
posted by fairmettle at 10:48 AM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
I read all of the books and I really wanted to like the movie but it just didn't seem authentic to me. The ship didn't move through the water like a sailing vessel. It sat too straight and it seemed to be gliding across the waves instead of ploughing through them. The scenes on deck looked too staged and overcrowded somehow. In the books Aubrey and Maturin were not nice people but they had a spark of decency that enabled to glimpse an enlightenment that was generations away. The movie characters had too many 21st century sensibilities. However, given the enthusiasm in this thread maybe I'll give it another go.
posted by night_train at 10:52 AM on October 24, 2020
posted by night_train at 10:52 AM on October 24, 2020
Tired: Perennially "renewed" James Bond
Wired: Perennially renewed Doctor Who
Inspired: Non-canon multi-branching Aubturin Cinematic Universe.
posted by pykrete jungle at 11:13 AM on October 24, 2020 [7 favorites]
Wired: Perennially renewed Doctor Who
Inspired: Non-canon multi-branching Aubturin Cinematic Universe.
posted by pykrete jungle at 11:13 AM on October 24, 2020 [7 favorites]
I'm surprised this didn't do well on release.
we have a pretty sweet home theater set up and this is one of our go-to movies to show it off. the foley work on this movie is amazing. the creaking of the ropes makes me feel like I'm on the damn ship!! seen it many times and never tired of it!
posted by supermedusa at 11:22 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
we have a pretty sweet home theater set up and this is one of our go-to movies to show it off. the foley work on this movie is amazing. the creaking of the ropes makes me feel like I'm on the damn ship!! seen it many times and never tired of it!
posted by supermedusa at 11:22 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Russell Crowe made an excellent Capt. Aubrey, but unfortunately Paul Bettany portrayed Dr. Maturin as rather subordinate, instead of the true match for Aubrey he is in the books (although I attribute this more to the script and direction than to the actor).
OK, that's interesting, I may have to give the books another try. My reading was that the two men can never be actual equals as the doctor is literally subordinate to the captain. I've not read the books but what I liked about the film portrayal of that relationship is that the mutual respect bumps up against rank and hierarchy and risks jeopardising the barely maintained order and proper functioning of the ship. Both men find ways to navigate that tension and have moments push and pull with one another, as people and as their respective roles on the ship. The Doctor cannot challenge the Captain, but Maturin can challenge Aubrey.
This is also played out in the plotlines with the other officers and their fraught relationships with the crew and how they navigate commanding respect.
posted by slimepuppy at 11:23 AM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
OK, that's interesting, I may have to give the books another try. My reading was that the two men can never be actual equals as the doctor is literally subordinate to the captain. I've not read the books but what I liked about the film portrayal of that relationship is that the mutual respect bumps up against rank and hierarchy and risks jeopardising the barely maintained order and proper functioning of the ship. Both men find ways to navigate that tension and have moments push and pull with one another, as people and as their respective roles on the ship. The Doctor cannot challenge the Captain, but Maturin can challenge Aubrey.
This is also played out in the plotlines with the other officers and their fraught relationships with the crew and how they navigate commanding respect.
posted by slimepuppy at 11:23 AM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
I know what you mean. I think that's likely because there's not as much of a "signature style" to Weir movies per se.
I can see that. Sidney Lumet was a similar sort of director although he probably gets more credit.
posted by octothorpe at 11:57 AM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
I can see that. Sidney Lumet was a similar sort of director although he probably gets more credit.
posted by octothorpe at 11:57 AM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
In reading the books I found "Lobscouse & Spotted Dog" and "A Sea of Words" to be useful and enjoyable in their own right. There are several other related books on Amazon "Patrick O'Brian's Navy" and "Harbors and High Seas" both look interesting
posted by speug at 12:02 PM on October 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by speug at 12:02 PM on October 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
My reading was that the two men can never be actual equals as the doctor is literally subordinate to the captain.
Part of the interesting dynamic is that while that's absolutely true in terms of the operations of the ship, the world of the books extends beyond the ship. As an intelligence agent, Maturin's motives are frequently aligned with, or the reason for, the ship's movements in the first place. Off of the ship, when Maturin is spying, or they're conducting diplomacy with local leaders, Aubrey becomes sort of the friendly, crass, bumbling driver of the heavily armed giant limo that's ferrying around the eccentric little Irish/Catalan doctor.
But even beyond the scope of the ship acting as force projection for the Disgusting British Empire (tm), Aubrey and Maturin also exist as equals offboard. There's a life they have ashore with families and friends, where they do interact as equals.
posted by pykrete jungle at 12:02 PM on October 24, 2020 [14 favorites]
Part of the interesting dynamic is that while that's absolutely true in terms of the operations of the ship, the world of the books extends beyond the ship. As an intelligence agent, Maturin's motives are frequently aligned with, or the reason for, the ship's movements in the first place. Off of the ship, when Maturin is spying, or they're conducting diplomacy with local leaders, Aubrey becomes sort of the friendly, crass, bumbling driver of the heavily armed giant limo that's ferrying around the eccentric little Irish/Catalan doctor.
But even beyond the scope of the ship acting as force projection for the Disgusting British Empire (tm), Aubrey and Maturin also exist as equals offboard. There's a life they have ashore with families and friends, where they do interact as equals.
posted by pykrete jungle at 12:02 PM on October 24, 2020 [14 favorites]
"The ship didn't move through the water like a sailing vessel. It sat too straight and it seemed to be gliding across the waves instead of ploughing through them. "
It may interest you to know that the Surprise is a real sailing boat (they bought an existing vessel called the Rose; may of us call it the Suprose). It was crewed by real sailors and they were really sailing it in the shots.
I'm a tallship sailor and I have several friends and crewmates who worked on that movie. At one point I was privileged to watch it with a few of them and other maritime historians who annpotated the whole thing as we were watching it. FWIW, that movie is excellently researched. It remains a favorite.
posted by Leeway at 12:02 PM on October 24, 2020 [47 favorites]
It may interest you to know that the Surprise is a real sailing boat (they bought an existing vessel called the Rose; may of us call it the Suprose). It was crewed by real sailors and they were really sailing it in the shots.
I'm a tallship sailor and I have several friends and crewmates who worked on that movie. At one point I was privileged to watch it with a few of them and other maritime historians who annpotated the whole thing as we were watching it. FWIW, that movie is excellently researched. It remains a favorite.
posted by Leeway at 12:02 PM on October 24, 2020 [47 favorites]
That does interest me 'Leeway' and I bow to your superior knowledge. I will give it another look.
posted by night_train at 12:44 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by night_train at 12:44 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
I’ve been on the Lady Washington and it wasn’t like sailing on a big fiberglass boat. The weight, I assumed, but what do I know?
Overcrowded decks seem really accurate, too. There was so much stuff and so many necessary people.
posted by clew at 1:10 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Overcrowded decks seem really accurate, too. There was so much stuff and so many necessary people.
posted by clew at 1:10 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
The opening scene was terrifying - I had not put much thought into what it would actually be like to ride around on a boat that people were shooting at with big chunks of iron
posted by thelonius at 1:11 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 1:11 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
There’s also a sequence of books in which Maturin is the owner of the Surprise as it performs overlapping privateering/naval duties. The stories do an amazing job of showing these two life-long friends as equals with different domains of experience. At sea, Maturin is the bumbler perpetually falling overboard (Pullings always stands by with sweet oil for his watch when he boards) while remarking on Aubrey’s cat-like grace and total authority. On land, Aubrey repeatedly falls for political schemes and other scams while Maturin and Sophie gently guide him to safety.
posted by migurski at 1:14 PM on October 24, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by migurski at 1:14 PM on October 24, 2020 [10 favorites]
> >a tragedy that we didn't get a whole series out of this
> but we got superheroes instead!
can't favorite this because I hate the situation too much. Not only do I blame this superhero thing for the overall downward trend of Big Deal motion picture entertainment but also Donald Trump, because only a culture lost in a bad time loop of eternal early adolescence could conjure such a specter as the whole damned Trump Thing. As if the gods finally just said fuck it, they've all gone and devolved their so culture so far that only an actual Super Villain will shake them out of it.
Okay, Martin Scorcese, ENOUGH.
There are those who no doubt dismissed the Master and Commander books as "immature" in their day as you're dismissing the Marvel comics for being right now. The the first few volumes didn't do all that well. But they were well written, had some intricate character development (to the point that some critics thought it was too complicated) and gradually drew in more and more readers as people figured out that "okay, these look like dippy boys'-own adventure books, but they're actually really good," and now they've been elevated to the point where you're using them as the metric to measure Marvel against. Seriously, back in the 1960s there was probably some fuddy-duddy who was saying that Master And Commander was a symptom of "the downward trend of Western literature and eternal early adolescence."
And just like that fuddy-duddy was wrong, it's also wrong to say it about Marvel. Just because the people are wearing superhero suits and fighting space aliens does not make it "immature". It's just a different set of tropes being used to re-tell familiar stories, just like Master and Commander was yet another set of tropes being used to re-tell a familiar story.
And as for blaming the MCU for Donald Trump - the racism and selfishness of the hard conservative party pre-dates the MCU by several generations, so I think it is somewhat of a stretch to blame Trump on them. And as for the "downward trend of Big Deal Motion Picture Entertainment", people have frequently pointed to Jaws as the point where Everything Started Going To Shit, because it was one of the first times the box office take was being cited as Proof This Movie Is Good. That was a couple decades before an Iron Man movie was even a glimmer in Stan Lee's eye.
So why didn't this movie get a foothold? Who the hell knows? A lot of the films we regard as classics today also tanked when they were first released, like Shawshank Redemption and It's A Wonderful Life and Blade Runner and Donnie Darko and Citizen Kane and Vertigo and... Making movies is a crapshoot, and you can have all the right elements in place and have the thing still not land with audiences - but that's not the fault of any other movie, and it's not a sign of the general downfall of audience intelligence. It's just the way things roll sometimes. Sometimes the quieter gems need to be given more time and space to find their people.
So you're right that it's a shame we didn't get more movies out of this, but you're wrong that it's "because we got superheroes instead". It's not like Hollywood is like pie.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:34 PM on October 24, 2020 [17 favorites]
> but we got superheroes instead!
can't favorite this because I hate the situation too much. Not only do I blame this superhero thing for the overall downward trend of Big Deal motion picture entertainment but also Donald Trump, because only a culture lost in a bad time loop of eternal early adolescence could conjure such a specter as the whole damned Trump Thing. As if the gods finally just said fuck it, they've all gone and devolved their so culture so far that only an actual Super Villain will shake them out of it.
Okay, Martin Scorcese, ENOUGH.
There are those who no doubt dismissed the Master and Commander books as "immature" in their day as you're dismissing the Marvel comics for being right now. The the first few volumes didn't do all that well. But they were well written, had some intricate character development (to the point that some critics thought it was too complicated) and gradually drew in more and more readers as people figured out that "okay, these look like dippy boys'-own adventure books, but they're actually really good," and now they've been elevated to the point where you're using them as the metric to measure Marvel against. Seriously, back in the 1960s there was probably some fuddy-duddy who was saying that Master And Commander was a symptom of "the downward trend of Western literature and eternal early adolescence."
And just like that fuddy-duddy was wrong, it's also wrong to say it about Marvel. Just because the people are wearing superhero suits and fighting space aliens does not make it "immature". It's just a different set of tropes being used to re-tell familiar stories, just like Master and Commander was yet another set of tropes being used to re-tell a familiar story.
And as for blaming the MCU for Donald Trump - the racism and selfishness of the hard conservative party pre-dates the MCU by several generations, so I think it is somewhat of a stretch to blame Trump on them. And as for the "downward trend of Big Deal Motion Picture Entertainment", people have frequently pointed to Jaws as the point where Everything Started Going To Shit, because it was one of the first times the box office take was being cited as Proof This Movie Is Good. That was a couple decades before an Iron Man movie was even a glimmer in Stan Lee's eye.
So why didn't this movie get a foothold? Who the hell knows? A lot of the films we regard as classics today also tanked when they were first released, like Shawshank Redemption and It's A Wonderful Life and Blade Runner and Donnie Darko and Citizen Kane and Vertigo and... Making movies is a crapshoot, and you can have all the right elements in place and have the thing still not land with audiences - but that's not the fault of any other movie, and it's not a sign of the general downfall of audience intelligence. It's just the way things roll sometimes. Sometimes the quieter gems need to be given more time and space to find their people.
So you're right that it's a shame we didn't get more movies out of this, but you're wrong that it's "because we got superheroes instead". It's not like Hollywood is like pie.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:34 PM on October 24, 2020 [17 favorites]
The movie was a giant anti-Bechdel test. That's not necessarily a problem that can be solved when recreating the British Navy in the 19th c. but having white men on screen for the full 2 hours plus isn't exactly going to create a box office success. Getting out of being woke and more to the realities of demographics there's a reason the MCU works so well even if the stories themselves are simple. You have young, good looking people of all demographics and genders on screen. You can always argue for my diversity of course, but that universe does a lot to checkoff a lot of boxes for a lot of markets.
posted by geoff. at 2:49 PM on October 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by geoff. at 2:49 PM on October 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
And as for blaming the MCU for Donald Trump -
it is no more ridiculous to blame superheroes for Donald Trump than well, superheroes themselves. Are ridiculous, that is. Sorry. This is not something that came upon me later in life. I pretty much always felt this way. I did like Dr. Strange, I guess. But the rest of them ... ? I just kept looking forward to being older and not having to worry about mucking around in a world defined by superheroes and related comic book stuff. Which felt plausible in the 1960s-70s, when I was still a kid.
Color me bemused when I hit the end of my teens and Superman (the big deal movie) hit and responsible adults seemed to take it seriously. In Howl, Allen Ginsberg wrote of seeing the best minds of his generation "... destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the [...] streets at dawn looking for an angry fix angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of the night." My generation -- it was just perennial comic stuff doing the destroying (and I include Star Wars in that).
my tongue is at least halfway in my cheek as I write this
posted by philip-random at 3:09 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
it is no more ridiculous to blame superheroes for Donald Trump than well, superheroes themselves. Are ridiculous, that is. Sorry. This is not something that came upon me later in life. I pretty much always felt this way. I did like Dr. Strange, I guess. But the rest of them ... ? I just kept looking forward to being older and not having to worry about mucking around in a world defined by superheroes and related comic book stuff. Which felt plausible in the 1960s-70s, when I was still a kid.
Color me bemused when I hit the end of my teens and Superman (the big deal movie) hit and responsible adults seemed to take it seriously. In Howl, Allen Ginsberg wrote of seeing the best minds of his generation "... destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the [...] streets at dawn looking for an angry fix angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of the night." My generation -- it was just perennial comic stuff doing the destroying (and I include Star Wars in that).
my tongue is at least halfway in my cheek as I write this
posted by philip-random at 3:09 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Of course they're ridiculous, and of course Master and Commander is hokey. Neither of those facts should be taken as ipso facto proof that they are the cause of the downfall of the general intelligence of the populace, is all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:19 PM on October 24, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:19 PM on October 24, 2020 [6 favorites]
A funny co-incidence: we watched this on video 15 years ago, paused half-way thru for a bathroom break, and the TV default switched to a Zbigniew Brzezinski interview right where he says (paraphrase) "...for example Britain and France had conflicts off South America in the 19th century which didn't come to anything..." haha, I think he was watching this movie the night before.
I liked this film okay. The sea-tech stuff is done really well. I'm not a big fan of Russell, he seemed kinda craggy & low-key as always, in the books Aubrey is usually fairly extroverted & exuberant when he's not depressed.
re-iterate comments above, the Kirk/Spock buddy-bromance in context of the hierarchies that they move through is an interesting element of the book series. Mixed feelings about Patrick O'Brian, his pacing is a bit odd sometimes, but he is very entertaining if you're into this kinda hi-seas squash-buckle thing.
posted by ovvl at 4:10 PM on October 24, 2020
I liked this film okay. The sea-tech stuff is done really well. I'm not a big fan of Russell, he seemed kinda craggy & low-key as always, in the books Aubrey is usually fairly extroverted & exuberant when he's not depressed.
re-iterate comments above, the Kirk/Spock buddy-bromance in context of the hierarchies that they move through is an interesting element of the book series. Mixed feelings about Patrick O'Brian, his pacing is a bit odd sometimes, but he is very entertaining if you're into this kinda hi-seas squash-buckle thing.
posted by ovvl at 4:10 PM on October 24, 2020
ipso facto proof that they are the cause of the downfall of the general intelligence
Symptoms, surely? (I kid...)
More seriously:
The movie was a giant anti-Bechdel test. That's not necessarily a problem that can be solved when recreating the British Navy in the 19th c. but having white men on screen for the full 2 hours plus ...
There isn't an easy way to create a lot of gender diversity in a movie set on a 19th century naval vessel* but wasn't the actual British navy and merchant marine actually racially fairly mixed, pulling in pretty much whomever they could get hold of? (Example archival discussion.) The movie's lack of diversity was a choice, not just a reflection of historical fact.
* Actually, thinking about that, even if all of the sailors were "men" in the eyes of the navy, there still would have been a lot more gender identity and sexual diversity than showed up in any of the books in the series that I read.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:52 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Symptoms, surely? (I kid...)
More seriously:
The movie was a giant anti-Bechdel test. That's not necessarily a problem that can be solved when recreating the British Navy in the 19th c. but having white men on screen for the full 2 hours plus ...
There isn't an easy way to create a lot of gender diversity in a movie set on a 19th century naval vessel* but wasn't the actual British navy and merchant marine actually racially fairly mixed, pulling in pretty much whomever they could get hold of? (Example archival discussion.) The movie's lack of diversity was a choice, not just a reflection of historical fact.
* Actually, thinking about that, even if all of the sailors were "men" in the eyes of the navy, there still would have been a lot more gender identity and sexual diversity than showed up in any of the books in the series that I read.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:52 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm a big fan of the movie and have read all of the books. Making my way through Hornblower now, and I kind of wish there was a good piece of fiction where Aubrey and Hornblower meeting, if only because they are almost exact opposites of each other.
posted by drezdn at 5:27 PM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 5:27 PM on October 24, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also, the movie has one of my favorite Sasha Baron Cohen roles so far.
posted by drezdn at 5:27 PM on October 24, 2020
posted by drezdn at 5:27 PM on October 24, 2020
> Peter Weir
Has always been right up there near the top for me, afaic anyone who doesn't think so is either ignorant, or an idiot
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 8:02 PM on October 24, 2020
Has always been right up there near the top for me, afaic anyone who doesn't think so is either ignorant, or an idiot
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 8:02 PM on October 24, 2020
A friend of mine helped film the actual storm footage for this movie. I was gifted the entire book series as a teen and was working on getting my captains license when this movie came out. I have a strong emotional attachment to this movie and would watch every minute of an O'Brian series. If done right.
Also I'm really annoying to watch shows involving boats/wind/sailing with ("omg they can't be sailing that fast in that direction right now look at the way the waves are breaking wtf"). This one was done very right.
posted by danapiper at 8:06 PM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
Also I'm really annoying to watch shows involving boats/wind/sailing with ("omg they can't be sailing that fast in that direction right now look at the way the waves are breaking wtf"). This one was done very right.
posted by danapiper at 8:06 PM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
I dunno, I tried reading the books and just couldn't get behind a series where I was supposed to be identifying with and supporting a naval captain who kidnapped poor people, enslaved them, and used torture to coerce them into waging war for the benefit of the very rich.
To be fair to the character, there are many times where he deplores the press-gang system and vocally prefers a chosen crew of volunteers.
Of course, this is more in pursuit of a more effective crew for combat and, let's face it, plundering, but Aubrey is no fan of the cat or kidnapped sailors.
posted by madajb at 9:34 PM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
To be fair to the character, there are many times where he deplores the press-gang system and vocally prefers a chosen crew of volunteers.
Of course, this is more in pursuit of a more effective crew for combat and, let's face it, plundering, but Aubrey is no fan of the cat or kidnapped sailors.
posted by madajb at 9:34 PM on October 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
Russell Crowe made an excellent Capt. Aubrey, but unfortunately Paul Bettany portrayed Dr. Maturin as rather subordinate, instead of the true match for Aubrey he is in the books (although I attribute this more to the script and direction than to the actor).
Yes, but that only happened as the series progressed.
The first couple of books, Maturin has definitely a down on his luck tag-along.
posted by madajb at 9:37 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yes, but that only happened as the series progressed.
The first couple of books, Maturin has definitely a down on his luck tag-along.
posted by madajb at 9:37 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
I can not recommend the books highly enough.
posted by Daddy-O at 11:14 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Daddy-O at 11:14 PM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
Much easier to digest Patrick O'Brian in film format. His historical fiction is great, but requires a good deal of extra reading just to understand it...
Worth it, if you can make it through his books, but watching a movie is just so much easier. I think the books are less about the story/plot, though. They read more like a lecture on what life was like during that time...lots of extra study required to get through the pages, even with footnotes.
posted by Chuffy at 12:14 AM on October 25, 2020
Worth it, if you can make it through his books, but watching a movie is just so much easier. I think the books are less about the story/plot, though. They read more like a lecture on what life was like during that time...lots of extra study required to get through the pages, even with footnotes.
posted by Chuffy at 12:14 AM on October 25, 2020
Just watched it tonight spurred on by this thread; a fine, well-made film, if somewhat broad in its narrative approach. Despite the deaths and maimings, at heart I think it's a mild - in a good way - buddy film set within the elsewhere often more brutally portrayed social hierarchies and physical dangers of British naval life. Unexpectedly, I found myself moved to tears at several points. I didn't know I was so susceptible to scenes of friendship and military honor.
One understated symbol in the film that I liked is that the doctor and captain are extremely accomplished string players who play refined chamber music in cabin. While the few seconds we are given of some of the musicians in the crew playing violin have them playing sourly out of tune. It's a somewhat enigmatic detail that feels like it wants to be about more than social class. Yet the crew is mostly portrayed as well-behaved and obedient - outside the one passing incident of subordination. Perhaps we are being invited to compare the ship and its men to an arcane musical instrument to be played upon by those with the skill to do so.
I'll be seeking out other Weir films.
posted by bertran at 2:02 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
One understated symbol in the film that I liked is that the doctor and captain are extremely accomplished string players who play refined chamber music in cabin. While the few seconds we are given of some of the musicians in the crew playing violin have them playing sourly out of tune. It's a somewhat enigmatic detail that feels like it wants to be about more than social class. Yet the crew is mostly portrayed as well-behaved and obedient - outside the one passing incident of subordination. Perhaps we are being invited to compare the ship and its men to an arcane musical instrument to be played upon by those with the skill to do so.
I'll be seeking out other Weir films.
posted by bertran at 2:02 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
I believe this film is responsible for the best Animal Crossing: New Horizons animal joke.
This film is also responsible for me regularly going "My heart! It hurts! Oh Blakeney, you sweet baby what are you doing on the ocean! Stephen! Find your cormorant! What happens to Pullings? My heaaaaaaaaaart...."
posted by Katemonkey at 3:05 AM on October 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
This film is also responsible for me regularly going "My heart! It hurts! Oh Blakeney, you sweet baby what are you doing on the ocean! Stephen! Find your cormorant! What happens to Pullings? My heaaaaaaaaaart...."
posted by Katemonkey at 3:05 AM on October 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
It may surprise my fellow Mefites to learn that I am something of a fan of these novels. That infamous Christmas Day quiz invariably has at least one O'Brien-related question, and they're the only ones I get right.
Nonetheless I have mixed feelings about this film. Yes, it is a technical masterpiece, thoroughly researched and meticulously made. But the plot is a mish-mash of story elements from throughout the series, and that tempers my enthusiasm. It serves as an excellent introduction to the series for non-readers: the film captures their spirit and ambience very, very well. But whenever I re-watch it, I can't help but question the filmmakers' story choices, and that in turn has limited my re-watches. (This discussion, perhaps, will allow me to get over my long-standing reservations.)
But I get it, it's a film. Like the contemporaneous LotR films, it has to elide some (or a lot) of the source material in order to fit into a standard film formula. I do hope it can (or has!) lead other readers into discovering the novels; they're a delight.
When it came out, I saw it in the theaters with my father, a retired physician who identified closely with the character Maturin. We were both tickled and intrigued that the film received its rating for violence, language, and "primitive surgery". Leaving the theater we were both convinced this could be the next Bond franchise. It does deserve a small-screen series, but I have to doubt we'll ever see one.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 4:57 AM on October 25, 2020 [9 favorites]
Nonetheless I have mixed feelings about this film. Yes, it is a technical masterpiece, thoroughly researched and meticulously made. But the plot is a mish-mash of story elements from throughout the series, and that tempers my enthusiasm. It serves as an excellent introduction to the series for non-readers: the film captures their spirit and ambience very, very well. But whenever I re-watch it, I can't help but question the filmmakers' story choices, and that in turn has limited my re-watches. (This discussion, perhaps, will allow me to get over my long-standing reservations.)
But I get it, it's a film. Like the contemporaneous LotR films, it has to elide some (or a lot) of the source material in order to fit into a standard film formula. I do hope it can (or has!) lead other readers into discovering the novels; they're a delight.
When it came out, I saw it in the theaters with my father, a retired physician who identified closely with the character Maturin. We were both tickled and intrigued that the film received its rating for violence, language, and "primitive surgery". Leaving the theater we were both convinced this could be the next Bond franchise. It does deserve a small-screen series, but I have to doubt we'll ever see one.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 4:57 AM on October 25, 2020 [9 favorites]
I saw it, senior year of high school with a sort of mixed bag of friends & acquaintances, and when it ended, a girl who I would describe as a friend of a friend of an acquaintance stood up and said "That was the worst movie I've ever seen!". My best friend turned around, looked at her and said "Oh... I liked it." and turned away awkwardly.
posted by timdiggerm at 7:00 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by timdiggerm at 7:00 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
I would agree with NoC that it’s a good standalone film, but a poor adaptation if you’re a fan of the books.
posted by cardboard at 7:30 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by cardboard at 7:30 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think it's significant that they chose one of very few storylines from the series that can be pulled off with ZERO scenes in cities or towns. The cost of making this movie with real-ass ships and crews must have been astronomical already - but triple that once you start adding in book scenes where Jack has to go visit the Admiralty or Stephen has to go on a spy mission or whatever.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:21 AM on October 25, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:21 AM on October 25, 2020 [4 favorites]
Yes, but that only happened as the series progressed.
The first couple of books, Maturin has definitely a down on his luck tag-along.
"The film combines elements from 13 different novels of Patrick O'Brian, but the basic plot mostly comes from The Far Side of the World [the 10th novel]. However, in the film version, the action takes place in 1805, during the Napoleonic wars, instead of 1813 during the Anglo-American War of 1812, as the producers wished to avoid offending American audiences." - via
posted by fairmettle at 8:25 AM on October 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
The first couple of books, Maturin has definitely a down on his luck tag-along.
"The film combines elements from 13 different novels of Patrick O'Brian, but the basic plot mostly comes from The Far Side of the World [the 10th novel]. However, in the film version, the action takes place in 1805, during the Napoleonic wars, instead of 1813 during the Anglo-American War of 1812, as the producers wished to avoid offending American audiences." - via
posted by fairmettle at 8:25 AM on October 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
I've wondered if the filmmakers expected that this would be a one-film franchise, and that's why so much is crammed into it. If so, I accept the choice, because this is probably in my top five, certainly top ten, personal favorite films ever.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 8:41 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 8:41 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
Making me relive my previously repressed grief at the lack of any sequels to the movie. And why isn't there a TV series about Maturins extra-curricular missions of a "diplomatic" character (which in the books happen, unfortunately, often off-screen as it were, and vaguely described.)
posted by thefool at 2:50 PM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by thefool at 2:50 PM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
I liked the film, adore the books, agree that there are some slightly jarring differences between them.
Two elements in particular are ones that add substantially to the literary interest of the books, both of which relate to the political and cultural context.
Aubrey is not quite correctly portrayed in the film as a "typical" RN officer of the time because in the books, he is of a slightly older era despite his relatively young age. Hornblower is the perfect Whig RN officer, in some sense he is almost plucked from the 20th century in some of his attitudes. He's basically a 1950s public school boy gone time travelling. Aubrey is a Tory and a traditionalist in an institution dominated by Whigs and that comes out in interesting ways. He is in a certain sense the last generation of Georgian aristocrats before the Victorians replaced them with meek and mannered middle-class people who happened to have titles. There's a great essay in one of my Aubrey-Maturin books about the chases to Naval discipline and culture that occurred during the Napoleonic wars. Before those wars, pressing was extremely rare, only every used in times of dire emergency and only on seamen (you might press the crew of a fishing vessel, in many cases along with their vessel to ferry an invasion fleet) and the RN had very limited central recruitment of any kind. Captains were expected to raise their own crews and in practice if they did not have the reputation to do raise a good crew they might well struggle to secure a commission. Discipline in those days was not so very harsh because crews were experienced men of the sea and many were anyway volunteers. It was (and I know historians hate this word but I'll use it anyway) a semi-feudal system where the relationships and direct lines of loyalties were between people rather than institutions. Think Drake receiving commissions from the Queen directly to go and privateer rather than a letter from the Admiralty directing you to do something. Aubrey coming from this older school of thought explains why he barely ever flogs (in the first hundred pages of the first book he makes clear his disdain for that sort of thing).
It is also relevant that Aubrey is not an English nationalist let alone a British one because he comes from an older privateering and plunder-seeking background that has almost as much to do with a knight in the Hundred Years War as it does with modern ideas of service to the State. His patriotism is an old-fashioned unconscious thing and he scorns what we would now think of nationalism as Whiggism.
It is not incidental that Maturin in the books is Hiberno-Catalan, formerly involved with the United Irishmen, and a humanist while being in the occasional service of the Admiralty because of his hatred for Bonaparte. It is through the interaction between them that we see the complexity of life in the mid-stage British Empire at war. Too many novels of that period either: completely ignore political complexity by making every character uninflected English who may have a political loyalty but not capital P Politics or teleport 20th and 21st century ideas directly into the heads of people who would have been very unlikely to have had them. That has always stopped me from getting too into Hornblower. All the baddies have all the bad views, and the goodies have the good ones.
There isn't an easy way to create a lot of gender diversity in a movie set on a 19th century naval vessel* but wasn't the actual British navy and merchant marine actually racially fairly mixed, pulling in pretty much whomever they could get hold of? (Example archival discussion.) The movie's lack of diversity was a choice, not just a reflection of historical fact.
The first few chapters of the first book have among the crew of the Sophie, a black African man, two sailors from Bengal, several Greeks, a Genoan as well as non-British white Europeans from Denmark and Poland. This is not particularly remarked upon as being an unusual crew composition because it wasn't. Having written the script the way they had, it might have been rather hard to get women into it but in a way they actually made it *less* historically accurate by not having non-white sailors in the crew.
In the books, Aubrey has a mixed race son (Samuel Mputa) from a relationship when he was much younger. So it's really not like they didn't have material to work with.
like, on every page of every austen novel i find myself hoping that the london rabble will invade the countryside hoisting red and black flags and then messily murder every main character while burning down all the mansion houses.
That's how I feel watching The West Wing. If you struggle reading novels set in systems of titanic international oppression and cruelty, I imagine there's rather little left to go at.
posted by atrazine at 4:13 AM on October 26, 2020 [18 favorites]
Two elements in particular are ones that add substantially to the literary interest of the books, both of which relate to the political and cultural context.
Aubrey is not quite correctly portrayed in the film as a "typical" RN officer of the time because in the books, he is of a slightly older era despite his relatively young age. Hornblower is the perfect Whig RN officer, in some sense he is almost plucked from the 20th century in some of his attitudes. He's basically a 1950s public school boy gone time travelling. Aubrey is a Tory and a traditionalist in an institution dominated by Whigs and that comes out in interesting ways. He is in a certain sense the last generation of Georgian aristocrats before the Victorians replaced them with meek and mannered middle-class people who happened to have titles. There's a great essay in one of my Aubrey-Maturin books about the chases to Naval discipline and culture that occurred during the Napoleonic wars. Before those wars, pressing was extremely rare, only every used in times of dire emergency and only on seamen (you might press the crew of a fishing vessel, in many cases along with their vessel to ferry an invasion fleet) and the RN had very limited central recruitment of any kind. Captains were expected to raise their own crews and in practice if they did not have the reputation to do raise a good crew they might well struggle to secure a commission. Discipline in those days was not so very harsh because crews were experienced men of the sea and many were anyway volunteers. It was (and I know historians hate this word but I'll use it anyway) a semi-feudal system where the relationships and direct lines of loyalties were between people rather than institutions. Think Drake receiving commissions from the Queen directly to go and privateer rather than a letter from the Admiralty directing you to do something. Aubrey coming from this older school of thought explains why he barely ever flogs (in the first hundred pages of the first book he makes clear his disdain for that sort of thing).
It is also relevant that Aubrey is not an English nationalist let alone a British one because he comes from an older privateering and plunder-seeking background that has almost as much to do with a knight in the Hundred Years War as it does with modern ideas of service to the State. His patriotism is an old-fashioned unconscious thing and he scorns what we would now think of nationalism as Whiggism.
It is not incidental that Maturin in the books is Hiberno-Catalan, formerly involved with the United Irishmen, and a humanist while being in the occasional service of the Admiralty because of his hatred for Bonaparte. It is through the interaction between them that we see the complexity of life in the mid-stage British Empire at war. Too many novels of that period either: completely ignore political complexity by making every character uninflected English who may have a political loyalty but not capital P Politics or teleport 20th and 21st century ideas directly into the heads of people who would have been very unlikely to have had them. That has always stopped me from getting too into Hornblower. All the baddies have all the bad views, and the goodies have the good ones.
There isn't an easy way to create a lot of gender diversity in a movie set on a 19th century naval vessel* but wasn't the actual British navy and merchant marine actually racially fairly mixed, pulling in pretty much whomever they could get hold of? (Example archival discussion.) The movie's lack of diversity was a choice, not just a reflection of historical fact.
The first few chapters of the first book have among the crew of the Sophie, a black African man, two sailors from Bengal, several Greeks, a Genoan as well as non-British white Europeans from Denmark and Poland. This is not particularly remarked upon as being an unusual crew composition because it wasn't. Having written the script the way they had, it might have been rather hard to get women into it but in a way they actually made it *less* historically accurate by not having non-white sailors in the crew.
In the books, Aubrey has a mixed race son (Samuel Mputa) from a relationship when he was much younger. So it's really not like they didn't have material to work with.
like, on every page of every austen novel i find myself hoping that the london rabble will invade the countryside hoisting red and black flags and then messily murder every main character while burning down all the mansion houses.
That's how I feel watching The West Wing. If you struggle reading novels set in systems of titanic international oppression and cruelty, I imagine there's rather little left to go at.
posted by atrazine at 4:13 AM on October 26, 2020 [18 favorites]
I've wondered if the filmmakers expected that this would be a one-film franchise
I'm pretty sure it was intended from the start as a one-off. As noted above, the film draws from multiple books in the franchise. That's probably the reason for the title: the film spans Master and Commander (the first book) to The Far Side of the World (the tenth book) and more.
posted by SPrintF at 6:59 AM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty sure it was intended from the start as a one-off. As noted above, the film draws from multiple books in the franchise. That's probably the reason for the title: the film spans Master and Commander (the first book) to The Far Side of the World (the tenth book) and more.
posted by SPrintF at 6:59 AM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
Further... inspired by this post, I started re-reading from the beginning this weekend and there's a bit I got to this morning that has further relevance both to the politics and to literary merit. I always think of the deep value of literature as putting you outside yourself and inside a different place or person.
There is a book series where you can imagine being a modern person in a historical context. It's called Horrible Histories and I would recommend it to any curious child. What good historical fiction like A-M does is put you in the heads of people who seem like they really might have lived, not just as a modern time-traveller but actually following along with their thoughts.
The bit I got to was Lt. James and Maturin having for the first moment and opportunity to speak privately about their pasts, you get to the point where they are talking about their political beliefs and it is perfectly obvious that *of course* neither of them were into popular democracy because real aristocrats (which they both are after a fashion) of that period were overwhelmingly not. A few years after The Terror, it would have been weird for a man who has thousands of acres of land as an absentee landlord in Ireland to be in favour of it. They're not even republicans because they worry that the people of Ireland are not ready for that and it would turn into mob rule.
Compare that to C.S Forester (and I do love the Hornblower TV series and have read most of the books). At any point I expect to finish a book and find that the next one in the series Horatio has taken a job working on charter school policy in the Obama White House or returned to the mid 20th century to his real existence as a moderate Conservative parish councillor in Nuneaton.
posted by atrazine at 7:45 AM on October 26, 2020 [5 favorites]
There is a book series where you can imagine being a modern person in a historical context. It's called Horrible Histories and I would recommend it to any curious child. What good historical fiction like A-M does is put you in the heads of people who seem like they really might have lived, not just as a modern time-traveller but actually following along with their thoughts.
The bit I got to was Lt. James and Maturin having for the first moment and opportunity to speak privately about their pasts, you get to the point where they are talking about their political beliefs and it is perfectly obvious that *of course* neither of them were into popular democracy because real aristocrats (which they both are after a fashion) of that period were overwhelmingly not. A few years after The Terror, it would have been weird for a man who has thousands of acres of land as an absentee landlord in Ireland to be in favour of it. They're not even republicans because they worry that the people of Ireland are not ready for that and it would turn into mob rule.
Compare that to C.S Forester (and I do love the Hornblower TV series and have read most of the books). At any point I expect to finish a book and find that the next one in the series Horatio has taken a job working on charter school policy in the Obama White House or returned to the mid 20th century to his real existence as a moderate Conservative parish councillor in Nuneaton.
posted by atrazine at 7:45 AM on October 26, 2020 [5 favorites]
The bit I got to was Lt. James and Maturin having for the first moment and opportunity to speak privately about their pasts, you get to the point where they are talking about their political beliefs and it is perfectly obvious that *of course* neither of them were into popular democracy because real aristocrats (which they both are after a fashion) of that period were overwhelmingly not. A few years after The Terror, it would have been weird for a man who has thousands of acres of land as an absentee landlord in Ireland to be in favour of it. They're not even republicans because they worry that the people of Ireland are not ready for that and it would turn into mob rule.
Yes! I think it's extremely important that Maturin, who is more of an enlightened character in many ways than Aubrey, thinks democracy is a foolish dream. Because everyone likes to think "oh, if I'd been born in [utterly different social and political context] I would OF COURSE still retain my exact same virtuous values because I'm A Good Person." Like, people don't necessarily THINK they think this, but they absolutely do. But it's just not so. And these books show two different version of what a basically kind and intelligent person would believe about the very alien-to-us world they live in.
People in three hundred years will be horrified at many of the things we do and think, in just the same way people read these books and decry the press-ganging and flogging and so forth. But those things happened. I learned about a lot of them through these books. And I'm glad they weren't sanitized beyond the point of historical credibility.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:01 AM on October 26, 2020 [6 favorites]
Yes! I think it's extremely important that Maturin, who is more of an enlightened character in many ways than Aubrey, thinks democracy is a foolish dream. Because everyone likes to think "oh, if I'd been born in [utterly different social and political context] I would OF COURSE still retain my exact same virtuous values because I'm A Good Person." Like, people don't necessarily THINK they think this, but they absolutely do. But it's just not so. And these books show two different version of what a basically kind and intelligent person would believe about the very alien-to-us world they live in.
People in three hundred years will be horrified at many of the things we do and think, in just the same way people read these books and decry the press-ganging and flogging and so forth. But those things happened. I learned about a lot of them through these books. And I'm glad they weren't sanitized beyond the point of historical credibility.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:01 AM on October 26, 2020 [6 favorites]
I believe Aubrey is actively against enclosure, which infuriates his fellow gentry and could be presentism but could also be a faintly-feudal trait like the rest of those atrazine mentions. (Could be part of his general feckless-on-land nature, too. They really aren’t diagrammatic plots.)
posted by clew at 11:46 AM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 11:46 AM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
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posted by adrianhon at 2:16 AM on October 24, 2020 [3 favorites]