Why no SOLAR powered cars? Well why not?
March 14, 2021 11:07 AM Subscribe
At first glance, Sion doesn’t look much different than any other black compact car roaming the streets in European cities. But upon closer inspection, it becomes clear that the car’s exterior is made up of hundreds of solar cells molded into polymer. These solar cells (which total 248 in all) convert sunlight into energy, which is then stored in the vehicle’s battery. Based on average weather in Munich, solar cells on a Sion can generate up to 1.2 kilowatts a day, which translates into 21 miles of driving range.
Because you're not making your car better. You're making solar panels shittier.
Better to just put the solar cells on the roof where they can be far more constantly productive and plug your car into your house if you need to charge.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:13 AM on March 14, 2021 [32 favorites]
Better to just put the solar cells on the roof where they can be far more constantly productive and plug your car into your house if you need to charge.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:13 AM on March 14, 2021 [32 favorites]
***eye twitching***
1.2 Kilowatt hours, perhaps? Mistake appears to be in the original article.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 11:16 AM on March 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
1.2 Kilowatt hours, perhaps? Mistake appears to be in the original article.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 11:16 AM on March 14, 2021 [15 favorites]
solar cells on a Sion can generate up to 1.2 kilowatts a day.
This statement makes no dimensional sense. A kilowatt is a measure of power - a rate of transfer of energy. What they probably mean is 1.2kWh (kilowatt hours) per day.
Which means that averaged over 24 hours, the solar panels are generating 1.2kWh / 24h = 0.05kW, also known as 50 W - about the same as your laptop charger.
Plug-in electric vehicles need a much bigger charger than that to be useful, so I don't see how this makes much sense.
However, googling this sentence to find any discussion of this discrepancy just finds dozens of news outlets breathlessly repeating the same nonsensical line from a press release.
posted by automatronic at 11:18 AM on March 14, 2021 [29 favorites]
This statement makes no dimensional sense. A kilowatt is a measure of power - a rate of transfer of energy. What they probably mean is 1.2kWh (kilowatt hours) per day.
Which means that averaged over 24 hours, the solar panels are generating 1.2kWh / 24h = 0.05kW, also known as 50 W - about the same as your laptop charger.
Plug-in electric vehicles need a much bigger charger than that to be useful, so I don't see how this makes much sense.
However, googling this sentence to find any discussion of this discrepancy just finds dozens of news outlets breathlessly repeating the same nonsensical line from a press release.
posted by automatronic at 11:18 AM on March 14, 2021 [29 favorites]
This seems wildly inefficient. At this precise moment my panels are producing 0.6kW, for 0.9kWh so far today. Yesterday they made 15.6kWh (I have a small 9 panel system, because my house is already surprisingly efficient). It would be substantially wiser to put the panels on rooftops, even in apartment complex situations.
...I mean, I guess kudos for the technical achievement, but actually scaling this up seems like a really really bad idea.
posted by aramaic at 11:41 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
...I mean, I guess kudos for the technical achievement, but actually scaling this up seems like a really really bad idea.
posted by aramaic at 11:41 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
'Why no science writers with basic science?' might be the better question.
Historically there haven't been solar cars since the limits on how much energy they could generate didn't make a lot of sense compared to their cost. The flat roof is below optimum for converting light in most places and then you have to take into account how much time might be spent in shadow when moving or parked. As the cells get cheaper it starts to make more sense. They have gone down in price by about 80% over the last ten years and look likely to continue to get cheaper.
posted by biffa at 11:42 AM on March 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
Historically there haven't been solar cars since the limits on how much energy they could generate didn't make a lot of sense compared to their cost. The flat roof is below optimum for converting light in most places and then you have to take into account how much time might be spent in shadow when moving or parked. As the cells get cheaper it starts to make more sense. They have gone down in price by about 80% over the last ten years and look likely to continue to get cheaper.
posted by biffa at 11:42 AM on March 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
I don't see the problem with giving it a try. [shrug] If it can sit in the parking lot of your workplace all day and be charged up enough to drive you home, what's not to like?
I'm seeing 200 watts per square meter generated from a typical solar cell in bright sunlight. At that rate, it makes sense that "per day" is simply a mistake and 1.2kW is the average power output for the whole car.
posted by clawsoon at 11:44 AM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm seeing 200 watts per square meter generated from a typical solar cell in bright sunlight. At that rate, it makes sense that "per day" is simply a mistake and 1.2kW is the average power output for the whole car.
posted by clawsoon at 11:44 AM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's surprisingly hard to figure out what unit the author intended to use here. (Not entirely their fault - the company doesn't seem to have gone out of its way to post the details anywhere.)
Kilowatt-hours seems plausible. 1.2 kWh is 1/10 of a contemporary Vespa engine running for an hour. Maybe they meant 1.2 kW integrated over the whole day? That's one Vespa engine for an hour in most latitudes. Either way, it seems challenging to make a car go. But, I guess it can't hurt to add it to the mix.
(I do think all of our our highways and the land beside them should be shaded by solar panels.)
posted by eotvos at 11:51 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Kilowatt-hours seems plausible. 1.2 kWh is 1/10 of a contemporary Vespa engine running for an hour. Maybe they meant 1.2 kW integrated over the whole day? That's one Vespa engine for an hour in most latitudes. Either way, it seems challenging to make a car go. But, I guess it can't hurt to add it to the mix.
(I do think all of our our highways and the land beside them should be shaded by solar panels.)
posted by eotvos at 11:51 AM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
what's not to like?
“Brittle” isn’t the best material property for the cladding of a car.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:53 AM on March 14, 2021 [20 favorites]
“Brittle” isn’t the best material property for the cladding of a car.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:53 AM on March 14, 2021 [20 favorites]
...so I'm guessing that "1.2kW during the day" is what they meant to say. Or, more realistically, 1.2 kW max.
Google says that the Nissan Leaf has a range of 149 miles with a 40 kWh battery. If this car is similar, the 21 miles per day of solar range translates to 5.6 kWh of energy needed. A 1.2 kW solar panel would need 4-5 hours to collect that energy while operating at max insolation. Given more realistic insolation, an 8-12 hour day to collect that much energy seems reasonable.
posted by clawsoon at 11:53 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Google says that the Nissan Leaf has a range of 149 miles with a 40 kWh battery. If this car is similar, the 21 miles per day of solar range translates to 5.6 kWh of energy needed. A 1.2 kW solar panel would need 4-5 hours to collect that energy while operating at max insolation. Given more realistic insolation, an 8-12 hour day to collect that much energy seems reasonable.
posted by clawsoon at 11:53 AM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Create a ground mounted rack of solar panels. Buy an electric car. Attach the solar panels to the grid so that no powe goes to waste. Plug the car in at the solar panels. Presto, solar car.
The science in the article is too muddled to review. They appear to be comparing peak generation to average use. So, even if the units were corrected it’s still not an useful metric.
posted by meinvt at 11:54 AM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
The science in the article is too muddled to review. They appear to be comparing peak generation to average use. So, even if the units were corrected it’s still not an useful metric.
posted by meinvt at 11:54 AM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
All of you doubters clearly haven't seen the infinitely powered solar bike.
posted by clawsoon at 11:56 AM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:56 AM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
If it can sit in the parking lot of your workplace all day and be charged up enough to drive you home, what's not to like?
Because there's financial and environmental costs to making solar panels. If they were free, it would make sense to put them places like on cars, even if they might never come close to full efficiency, but they're not, so it makes sense to put panels where they can do the most good.
It's also interesting as an impractical idea to consider where we might go in the future, but there's also a risk when something impractical that fails is seized upon by the right wing media as proof that alternative energy is bad. Consider the hype that the French Wattway had when it was unveiled in 2016 and how badly it ended up performing.
posted by Candleman at 11:57 AM on March 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
Because there's financial and environmental costs to making solar panels. If they were free, it would make sense to put them places like on cars, even if they might never come close to full efficiency, but they're not, so it makes sense to put panels where they can do the most good.
It's also interesting as an impractical idea to consider where we might go in the future, but there's also a risk when something impractical that fails is seized upon by the right wing media as proof that alternative energy is bad. Consider the hype that the French Wattway had when it was unveiled in 2016 and how badly it ended up performing.
posted by Candleman at 11:57 AM on March 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
Why not?
Because the surface area of a car isn't large enough.
Honestly I have no idea why people keep trying to design solar cars when you can just do the math on the amount of sunlight hitting it and it isn't enough. The entire concept does not solve a useful problem. We know how to build efficient, cost-effective solar panels out in a field, let's do more of that.
posted by allegedly at 11:58 AM on March 14, 2021 [14 favorites]
Because the surface area of a car isn't large enough.
Honestly I have no idea why people keep trying to design solar cars when you can just do the math on the amount of sunlight hitting it and it isn't enough. The entire concept does not solve a useful problem. We know how to build efficient, cost-effective solar panels out in a field, let's do more of that.
posted by allegedly at 11:58 AM on March 14, 2021 [14 favorites]
Forgetting about panel efficiency, latitude, wheather, etc, peak power from sunlight on Earth is less than 2 kW per square meter, about 1600 W IIRC. That's around 2 horsepower.
So that's why we don't and never will have directly solar powered cars, turns out they're power hogs that only become practical when there's millions of years of concentrated solar power to tap into.
posted by Bangaioh at 11:59 AM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
So that's why we don't and never will have directly solar powered cars, turns out they're power hogs that only become practical when there's millions of years of concentrated solar power to tap into.
posted by Bangaioh at 11:59 AM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
solar-powered horse tho
posted by away for regrooving at 12:05 PM on March 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by away for regrooving at 12:05 PM on March 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
solar-powered horse tho
I recently did the math on horses, because I was wondering why a one-horsepower horse can go so much faster than a one-horsepower car. Turns out that a quarter horse is generating at least 20 horsepower for the 20 seconds or so of a quarter-mile race. This isn't surprising, since a top cyclist can generate up to 3 horsepower for 10 seconds or so. Power output from muscles drops off dramatically after that amount of time, which is why one horse's power is only one horsepower.
posted by clawsoon at 12:14 PM on March 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
I recently did the math on horses, because I was wondering why a one-horsepower horse can go so much faster than a one-horsepower car. Turns out that a quarter horse is generating at least 20 horsepower for the 20 seconds or so of a quarter-mile race. This isn't surprising, since a top cyclist can generate up to 3 horsepower for 10 seconds or so. Power output from muscles drops off dramatically after that amount of time, which is why one horse's power is only one horsepower.
posted by clawsoon at 12:14 PM on March 14, 2021 [16 favorites]
turns out they're power hogs that only become practical when there's millions of years of concentrated solar power to tap into
Mine works fine plugged into my home solar array for about four hours a day.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:15 PM on March 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Mine works fine plugged into my home solar array for about four hours a day.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:15 PM on March 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Solar car roofs and solar roads are how a 5 year old would design EV infrastructure. It's naive intuition that looks dumb after the smallest amount of reflection.
Putting solar panels on your car makes as much sense as putting a refinery in your car and running it on crude oil.
posted by CaseyB at 12:15 PM on March 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
Putting solar panels on your car makes as much sense as putting a refinery in your car and running it on crude oil.
posted by CaseyB at 12:15 PM on March 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
If you are in an accident or the car is vandalized, repairs are even more expensive. But for people who live in an apartment, have no dedicated roof space, the car's roof is a decent solar location. I'd like to see building roofs become widespread as solar sites. The US has lagged horribly on this because the oil lobby is so dominant. When I traveled in Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, it was absurd to see that buildings are not oriented or designed for solar panels or to avoid heat, and lobbying has allowed barriers to be created to slow solar deployment. It's almost as if we are at the mercy of big corporations and their lobbyists.
posted by theora55 at 12:27 PM on March 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 12:27 PM on March 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
21 miles of driving range. Solar panel + electric bike sounds like a better implementation, esp. given how much car travel in the US is just 1 person per car.
posted by theora55 at 12:29 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 12:29 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
The solar panels are still charging a battery. The energy is still stored/saved in a battery for use. I dont see how it, in any way, even remotely connects to the headline - "Forget Batteries, This Electric Vehicle Startup Uses Solar Power to Charge Up Cars"
posted by asra at 12:37 PM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by asra at 12:37 PM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
The other practical problem with these things is that you need lots of nice open-air parking lots for your car to practically have a chance of charging. Garages are right out. In cities, where this sort of range is the most useful, is exactly where there's no room for on-street parking.
Electricity distribution is not an simple problem, but it's at least partially solved already, and also it's way easier and much cheaper than bolting solar panels onto cars.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:39 PM on March 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
Electricity distribution is not an simple problem, but it's at least partially solved already, and also it's way easier and much cheaper than bolting solar panels onto cars.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:39 PM on March 14, 2021 [9 favorites]
Electric cars get about 4 miles per kWh, according to the EPA. The article claims the solar cells generate about 20 miles of range per day, or about 5kWh. 1.2 kWh as stated in the article might possibly mean peak solar cell output, but whoever wrote article that is scientifically illiterate!
The life cycle cost of this system doesn't pan out. The CO2 embedded in production of the solar cells is far better used to make stationary solar panels which feed into the grid. Their EV is made heavier, more fragile, and harder to repair by the cells, meaning it will need to be scrapped long before a normal EV.
posted by monotreme at 12:43 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
The life cycle cost of this system doesn't pan out. The CO2 embedded in production of the solar cells is far better used to make stationary solar panels which feed into the grid. Their EV is made heavier, more fragile, and harder to repair by the cells, meaning it will need to be scrapped long before a normal EV.
posted by monotreme at 12:43 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm all for electric cars that can be charged on cleaner forms of power, but if I could be the social planner I would try to design cities and communities where most people *don't need personal cars* most of the time, not give everyone personal cars that are solar powered or whatever. There are other externalities to car driving beyond just air pollution, although that's a big one.
posted by dismas at 12:46 PM on March 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by dismas at 12:46 PM on March 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
So this makes more sense when you look at graphs like solar panel price, and olar additions per year compared to estimates. Basically, the rapid growth in solar panel efficiency has been matched by new chemistries that make them cheaper and easier to make. Some of this has been China subsidizing their panels, but mostly it's been a bunch of relatively small innovations. So the takeaway from things like this shouldn't be "solar-powered car", there's just not enough sunlight unless the car is too tiny and lightweight to survive a fender bender, but that the buyer of the car is spending X000 more on the car to save >x000 on energy costs over the solar panels useful life (which will probably be less than the car as they're still somewhat fragile) just like people do all the time with rooftop solar. No solar panel is a waste of money if it saves you more in energy costs than it cost. (on an individual level of course, disposal externalities are still a thing but going away in places with mandated recycling of used panels)
posted by hermanubis at 12:49 PM on March 14, 2021
posted by hermanubis at 12:49 PM on March 14, 2021
Putting solar panels on your car makes as much sense
I've been thinking about my #vanlife OTG Cybertruck doom mobile that's been slowly progressing towards an available purchase since late '19 . . .
Elon's promised some sort of solar option but from what we [don't] know now, for a week or three of OTG use, a DIY PV array would be more cost-effective.
6 proper PV panels pointed at the sun can produce up to 2kW, or 20kWh/day on good days; this would be handy when camping somewhere, use 1kW for HVAC when in the sun and bank the rest into the house batteries for evening & morning use.
Problem is 6 panels take up a lot of space in the truck (unless I go the thin film type, which have their own (reliability) issues.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:03 PM on March 14, 2021
I've been thinking about my #vanlife OTG Cybertruck doom mobile that's been slowly progressing towards an available purchase since late '19 . . .
Elon's promised some sort of solar option but from what we [don't] know now, for a week or three of OTG use, a DIY PV array would be more cost-effective.
6 proper PV panels pointed at the sun can produce up to 2kW, or 20kWh/day on good days; this would be handy when camping somewhere, use 1kW for HVAC when in the sun and bank the rest into the house batteries for evening & morning use.
Problem is 6 panels take up a lot of space in the truck (unless I go the thin film type, which have their own (reliability) issues.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:03 PM on March 14, 2021
theora55: Solar panel + electric bike sounds like a better implementation. But e-bikes are so bbrrrr in Winter. PodRide has that covered.
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:09 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 1:09 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
>Why no SOLAR powered cars?
If you're talking about 'solar-powered' with no batteries, then:
Wiki: "maximum normal surface irradiance [is] approximately 1000 W/m2 at sea level on a clear day."
With 35% efficient cells and two m2 of collector on the vehicle, available continuous sea-level power is 700W. (Maybe 1kW in Denver.) That's almost 1 horsepower. Might power a well-oiled go-kart (equipped with a solar roof). Try to avoid cloudy days.
Else, battery-stored solar energy is already powering many, many EVs. That's the obvious future nightmare that fossil companies have been lying their asses off for decades to avoid; infinite supply, no mining, no transportation, very little pollution. 'But how can you *store* it?' One very simple and inexpensive and low-tech means is: gravity. Already used worldwide.
posted by Twang at 1:10 PM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
If you're talking about 'solar-powered' with no batteries, then:
Wiki: "maximum normal surface irradiance [is] approximately 1000 W/m2 at sea level on a clear day."
With 35% efficient cells and two m2 of collector on the vehicle, available continuous sea-level power is 700W. (Maybe 1kW in Denver.) That's almost 1 horsepower. Might power a well-oiled go-kart (equipped with a solar roof). Try to avoid cloudy days.
Else, battery-stored solar energy is already powering many, many EVs. That's the obvious future nightmare that fossil companies have been lying their asses off for decades to avoid; infinite supply, no mining, no transportation, very little pollution. 'But how can you *store* it?' One very simple and inexpensive and low-tech means is: gravity. Already used worldwide.
posted by Twang at 1:10 PM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
With 35% efficient cells and two m2 of collector on the vehicle, available continuous sea-level power is 700W. (Maybe 1kW in Denver.) That's almost 1 horsepower. Might power a well-oiled go-kart (equipped with a solar roof). Try to avoid cloudy days.
Right, but for an electric camping vehicle with batteries this would be great. 8 hours a day of sunlight gets you about 5 kWh per day. Go overlanding on dirt roads, park and stay in one place for a few days at a time. You could camp for months without having to plug in if you went at a leisurely pace. It would be amazing.
posted by medusa at 1:28 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
Right, but for an electric camping vehicle with batteries this would be great. 8 hours a day of sunlight gets you about 5 kWh per day. Go overlanding on dirt roads, park and stay in one place for a few days at a time. You could camp for months without having to plug in if you went at a leisurely pace. It would be amazing.
posted by medusa at 1:28 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
if I could be the social planner I would try to design cities and communities where most people *don't need personal cars* most of the time
Ideally, sure, this is the best idea. We don't all live in societies where social planning attempts to to the broadest good. Sometimes (I'm not arguing that this particular car fits) a dumb sexy product is better than nothing. Of course, hybrids are not as good as plug-ins environmentally, but they're better than gas-guzzlers. There can be room for a range of solutions in a world where people often don't choose to do the right thing.
I would make you the social planner if I could.
posted by rikschell at 1:45 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ideally, sure, this is the best idea. We don't all live in societies where social planning attempts to to the broadest good. Sometimes (I'm not arguing that this particular car fits) a dumb sexy product is better than nothing. Of course, hybrids are not as good as plug-ins environmentally, but they're better than gas-guzzlers. There can be room for a range of solutions in a world where people often don't choose to do the right thing.
I would make you the social planner if I could.
posted by rikschell at 1:45 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
Meh, I get the complaints and it doesn't seem great but if you want a car for short commutes & errands, and live in an apartment and park at an employer with no recharging station, it could mean you can stop using fossil fuels.
Sure, you're adding solar panels but they are getting cheaper all the time and you're also cutting out a big part of the battery, which is hugely expensive.
I don't think it will quite work out, because by the time this is really going there will (I hope) be recharging infrastructure good there won't really be a use case. But it's more other things will change than this being inherently useless.
Well, one use case: Everyone laughing at this now will be begging for rides when the zombie apocalypse hits.
posted by mark k at 1:48 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sure, you're adding solar panels but they are getting cheaper all the time and you're also cutting out a big part of the battery, which is hugely expensive.
I don't think it will quite work out, because by the time this is really going there will (I hope) be recharging infrastructure good there won't really be a use case. But it's more other things will change than this being inherently useless.
Well, one use case: Everyone laughing at this now will be begging for rides when the zombie apocalypse hits.
posted by mark k at 1:48 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
As potential solar cars go, the 16km/kwh (claimed) Aptera looks a much more plausible shape, and at least they have some numbers listed with non-flubbed units attached. It has an optional 3m^2 panel that should cover an average commute if left in the sun all day. In Summer. In California.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:04 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:04 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
On one hand, this is a strong incentive to wash your car often. But it is also a strong incentive to leave your car out in the elements all day!!! (overload, logic unit explode)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:44 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:44 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Per wikipedia it has 7.5 square meters of solar panels, generating 1208 watts. I am doubtful more than 3/4th of them will be getting optimal illumination at any one time.
Let's not even talk about winter...
posted by joeyh at 2:45 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Let's not even talk about winter...
posted by joeyh at 2:45 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm seeing long-distance trucks (tractor trailers) with solar panels on the roof of the cab. Like this. Article at the link lays out why it's a worthwhile investment. What they are saying is that just because it doesn't power the truck, at all, doesn't mean it's not worth it. Among other things it keeps them from having to run diesel to power heat, AC, etc. when the driver is resting/sleeping between runs.
posted by beagle at 2:51 PM on March 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by beagle at 2:51 PM on March 14, 2021 [12 favorites]
Also for those talking about this being useful on city streets for apartment dwellers, solar panels are very sensitive to shade. So unless the streets don't have trees and the buildings aren't very tall, the amount of energy you'll get compared to the potential they could reach can be significantly lower.
posted by Candleman at 2:55 PM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 2:55 PM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Here's a real world 100% solar powered vehicle by the way: Route Del Sol is a camper van with a tilt rack on the roof, three rows of panels slide out, forming an 8 kw array. They got from Alaska to Mexico, with adventures like getting stuck in a field in Alaska for a week in snow, and a whole lot of days spent by the side of a road charging up enough to get 80 miles down the road. Unfortunately the solar sail met its wind in the end.
posted by joeyh at 2:59 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by joeyh at 2:59 PM on March 14, 2021 [4 favorites]
May not make sense for cars, but I'd love to do something like this for my boat, which really doesn't have a good place to install flat panels that won't get in the way of regular operations.
posted by mstokes650 at 3:03 PM on March 14, 2021
posted by mstokes650 at 3:03 PM on March 14, 2021
A small solar panel to trickle charge your battery should be standard on all cars. It would extend your battery's lifespan, reduce expensive trips to the dealer, and ... wait a minute, I've just received a note from our sponsor ...
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:06 PM on March 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:06 PM on March 14, 2021 [7 favorites]
I think accumulating 6 miles a day from sunlight is the point at which a solar-augmented car becomes a worthwhile fun feature for me relative to the cost of cells, and given where I live, that's doable.
Solar augmentation isn't for people trying to save money, or people trying to maximize efficiency per dollar (I have my bicycles for those things), I see it more like how some people spend extra for a sporty car; it's something you buy because you think it's kickass. In my case trips are short so I'd be interested to see how long I could go without needing a hookup. For someone else, when the zombie apocalypse happens it would be the only thing on wheels that still works. Solar vehicles are not for everyone, but not for no-one either.
posted by Cusp at 3:27 PM on March 14, 2021
Solar augmentation isn't for people trying to save money, or people trying to maximize efficiency per dollar (I have my bicycles for those things), I see it more like how some people spend extra for a sporty car; it's something you buy because you think it's kickass. In my case trips are short so I'd be interested to see how long I could go without needing a hookup. For someone else, when the zombie apocalypse happens it would be the only thing on wheels that still works. Solar vehicles are not for everyone, but not for no-one either.
posted by Cusp at 3:27 PM on March 14, 2021
Solar panel efficiency continues to improve. Batteries are heavy. If the tech continues to get a bit better every year, and eventually you're talking about 30, 40, 50 additional miles without adding additional weight to the car, then I could see this as a really useful add on for extending range. It's being overhyped now, but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
posted by gwint at 4:10 PM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
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posted by gwint at 4:10 PM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Of course it's possible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge
Maybe not very practical for though.
posted by nickzoic at 4:11 PM on March 14, 2021
Maybe not very practical for though.
posted by nickzoic at 4:11 PM on March 14, 2021
Everyone laughing at this now will be begging for rides when the zombie apocalypse hits.
I hope they’re running from slow zombies.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 4:17 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
I hope they’re running from slow zombies.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 4:17 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Counterpoint: I've driven a total of ten miles in the past three months. So if the zombie apocalypse means we're in quarantine like we are now, there will be no problem topping up the car batteries between the times you have to drive.
posted by darkstar at 5:14 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by darkstar at 5:14 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's being overhyped now, but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
Solar panels have a maximum quantum efficiency and there's only so much insolation from the sun. The laws of physics and basic math dismiss this out of hand.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:18 PM on March 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
Solar panels have a maximum quantum efficiency and there's only so much insolation from the sun. The laws of physics and basic math dismiss this out of hand.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:18 PM on March 14, 2021 [8 favorites]
This is the solar car for adventure travel (from here). It's shitty for zombie evasion, though.
posted by Tom-B at 5:20 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Tom-B at 5:20 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Want.
My dream for the post-apocalypse is a electric cargo trike with a solar roof to recharge the battery and keep you out of the rain. So thank you, Tom-B.
posted by darkstar at 5:26 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
My dream for the post-apocalypse is a electric cargo trike with a solar roof to recharge the battery and keep you out of the rain. So thank you, Tom-B.
posted by darkstar at 5:26 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
“Brittle” isn’t the best material property for the cladding of a car.
Not unless you're careening head-first into a peanut factory at 100 mph!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:35 PM on March 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
Not unless you're careening head-first into a peanut factory at 100 mph!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:35 PM on March 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
> It's being overhyped now, but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
>> Solar panels have a maximum quantum efficiency and there's only so much insolation from the sun. The laws of physics and basic math dismiss this out of hand.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting running an EV completely on solar. I'm suggesting that putting solar on an EV to enhance the vehicle's range is worth working on, and that getting an extra 40-50 miles of range is well within physical limits.
posted by gwint at 7:03 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
>> Solar panels have a maximum quantum efficiency and there's only so much insolation from the sun. The laws of physics and basic math dismiss this out of hand.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting running an EV completely on solar. I'm suggesting that putting solar on an EV to enhance the vehicle's range is worth working on, and that getting an extra 40-50 miles of range is well within physical limits.
posted by gwint at 7:03 PM on March 14, 2021 [2 favorites]
To be clear, I'm not suggesting running an EV completely on solar. I'm suggesting that putting solar on an EV to enhance the vehicle's range is worth working on, and that getting an extra 40-50 miles of range is well within physical limits.
Again, assuming for the sake of argument that some random thing down the line is going to support these numbers, even if you do get that range extension, they're still just wasting solar cells that could be way more productive elsewhere.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:19 PM on March 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Again, assuming for the sake of argument that some random thing down the line is going to support these numbers, even if you do get that range extension, they're still just wasting solar cells that could be way more productive elsewhere.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:19 PM on March 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
When I had a car with a very dark interior it used to get like 1000 degrees in there in the summer so I think if I put some water on the dash it would create steam and I could run a small dynamo in there to power things while it recharged because hey sunny and then at night there would be batteries and we could pump more water up on the dash and then perpetual energy and the US auto industry and Exxon would pay me boo coop cash to hide this idea and then I could buy a Tesla or a bitchen F250 so if I had a big truck would someone go out with me?
Er, sorry, I meant I sure hope EV tech keeps advancing so there are fewer of these Because I Could articles and more Look How Much That Helped stories.
EDIT: I just reread this and it looks like I'm slamming Sono. Nope, just riffing and then tryig to get somewhat on topic. That said, this piece was maybe more credulous than it needed to be. (Edit 2 : typos galore.)
posted by Cris E at 7:58 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Er, sorry, I meant I sure hope EV tech keeps advancing so there are fewer of these Because I Could articles and more Look How Much That Helped stories.
EDIT: I just reread this and it looks like I'm slamming Sono. Nope, just riffing and then tryig to get somewhat on topic. That said, this piece was maybe more credulous than it needed to be. (Edit 2 : typos galore.)
posted by Cris E at 7:58 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Well as long as we're doing that, then I'd like to propose putting some pedals inside the car so the occupants can charge up the battery while getting some decent aerobic exercise.
In fact, I'd make it mandatory. Passengers, you want a lift, you gotta pedal your asses off.
posted by storybored at 9:09 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
In fact, I'd make it mandatory. Passengers, you want a lift, you gotta pedal your asses off.
posted by storybored at 9:09 PM on March 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
There are other externalities to car driving beyond just air pollution, although that's a big one.
And going emissions-free doesn't even solve the air pollution problem. Tyre and break wear, along with road dust are issues not solved by EVs (in fact, largely exacerbated by their typically higher weight, somewhat offset by regen braking, but tyres are the bigger issue than brakes).
posted by Dysk at 9:11 PM on March 14, 2021
And going emissions-free doesn't even solve the air pollution problem. Tyre and break wear, along with road dust are issues not solved by EVs (in fact, largely exacerbated by their typically higher weight, somewhat offset by regen braking, but tyres are the bigger issue than brakes).
posted by Dysk at 9:11 PM on March 14, 2021
We know how to build efficient, cost-effective solar panels out in a field
and we also know that being unable to find a shady parking spot makes a driver's day objectively worse.
Taking available insolation during parking hours to be roughly 500W/m2, PV panel conversion efficiency to be roughly 20% and a typical parking bay to be roughly 2.5m by 6m, shading a parking bay with solar panels would keep the car parked underneath it substantially cooler and make roughly a kilowatt available to charge it.
I am looking forward to the day when PV panel and mounting hardware costs have dropped enough to let shade infrastructure provide enough electricity to be a no-brainer money making proposition for the owners of the spaces it shades. I'm expecting that day to arrive well before the same could possibly be said for PV elements incorporated into car bodies.
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on March 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
and we also know that being unable to find a shady parking spot makes a driver's day objectively worse.
Taking available insolation during parking hours to be roughly 500W/m2, PV panel conversion efficiency to be roughly 20% and a typical parking bay to be roughly 2.5m by 6m, shading a parking bay with solar panels would keep the car parked underneath it substantially cooler and make roughly a kilowatt available to charge it.
I am looking forward to the day when PV panel and mounting hardware costs have dropped enough to let shade infrastructure provide enough electricity to be a no-brainer money making proposition for the owners of the spaces it shades. I'm expecting that day to arrive well before the same could possibly be said for PV elements incorporated into car bodies.
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on March 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
As electric vehicles go mainstream, the auto industry has largely reached the consensus that the next big thing is no longer about eliminating gas engines, but finding the most efficient method to generate electricity to power cars. Some companies, including Tesla, focus on perfecting the already popular lithium-ion batteries; others take the risk to explore new battery tech such as hydrogen fuel cells and solid-state batteries.If your immediate reaction to this opening is not to sigh and shake your head and close the article and do something more useful with your day, you really really need to get better informed.
But few have pursued an alternative energy source that dominates elsewhere: solar power.
posted by flabdablet at 9:38 PM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Look. Solar is great. We should definitely have more solar everywhere. But knowing first-hand how much fracturing degrades solar cell performance, I dread the thought of what these cells will look like after an hour on the freeway, let alone a "kilowatt day." Solar-powered cars are about as useful as solar-powered cell phone cases: the math says they're not great, and practical engineering concerns say that unless you're a niche of a niche, don't bother.
posted by lock robster at 12:16 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by lock robster at 12:16 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
To be clear, I'm not suggesting running an EV completely on solar. I'm suggesting that putting solar on an EV to enhance the vehicle's range is worth working on, and that getting an extra 40-50 miles of range is well within physical limits.
As someone who drives an electric car that has a range of about 70miles on a good day, an additional 40 to 50 miles of range from "free" sunlight (yes, yes, the cost and externalities of the panels, etc etc) would be amazing.
posted by flamk at 12:23 AM on March 15, 2021
As someone who drives an electric car that has a range of about 70miles on a good day, an additional 40 to 50 miles of range from "free" sunlight (yes, yes, the cost and externalities of the panels, etc etc) would be amazing.
posted by flamk at 12:23 AM on March 15, 2021
So with that range, if you're in a European city, you can travel within the coverage of regular, cheap, public transport, but slower and taking up more space on the road, for more money.
posted by BinaryApe at 1:17 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by BinaryApe at 1:17 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
A few more details here. Looking at the PV layout alone makes me cringe. When someone opening their door in a parking lot too hard might fry your PV system and potentially total your car, do you really want to pay those insurance rates? The more I read, the less I like. But maybe they're wizards doing magic, who knows.
posted by lock robster at 1:27 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by lock robster at 1:27 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
As someone who drives an electric car that has a range of about 70miles on a good day, an additional 40 to 50 miles of range from "free" sunlight (yes, yes, the cost and externalities of the panels, etc etc) would be amazing.
As somebody moderately familiar with the engineering constraints around solar PV cells, batteries and electric motors, I too would find adding an additional 40 to 50 miles of range per day to a practical BEV built for 70 miles range on a charge by adding car-mounted solar cells amazing. Completely astonishing, in fact. So astonishing that I don't expect to see it in my lifetime.
posted by flabdablet at 2:35 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
As somebody moderately familiar with the engineering constraints around solar PV cells, batteries and electric motors, I too would find adding an additional 40 to 50 miles of range per day to a practical BEV built for 70 miles range on a charge by adding car-mounted solar cells amazing. Completely astonishing, in fact. So astonishing that I don't expect to see it in my lifetime.
posted by flabdablet at 2:35 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
If you want a car to travel serious distance from on-board solar power you need a much bigger car with much lower carrying capacity.
posted by flabdablet at 2:38 AM on March 15, 2021
posted by flabdablet at 2:38 AM on March 15, 2021
I think there was a Mazda in the 90s that had a small PV that would run the fan on hot days to reduce in the interior temperature towards ambient. I always wondered why something like that hasn't been used more often.
posted by drstrangelove at 3:17 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by drstrangelove at 3:17 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
It adds cost and complexity for no real benefit, when you're already spinning a big alternator all the time (or carrying battery capacity that makes your ventilation fan power consumption an insignificant rounding error).
posted by Dysk at 3:43 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 3:43 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Dysk, I assume your comment was in response to mine. The fan on the Mazda ran when the car was parked and otherwise turned off. It used solar energy to avoid running down the battery, obviously.
posted by drstrangelove at 5:04 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by drstrangelove at 5:04 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Ah okay, that makes a bit more sense. You could totally still run that from the main battery on an EV without putting a meaningful dent in capacity. I wonder if it didn't catch on because opening the windows (or putting in the AC) when you get in the car is going to be as effective, and you don't really need the temperature of the car interior to be managed (but fairly ineffectively) when you're not actually using it?
posted by Dysk at 5:25 AM on March 15, 2021
posted by Dysk at 5:25 AM on March 15, 2021
A system like that would make a lot of sense on a caravan or RV though!
posted by Dysk at 5:26 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 5:26 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
or carrying battery capacity that makes your ventilation fan power consumption an insignificant rounding error
I think you're underestimating both how much power a decent sized blower motor uses and how terrible car starter batteries are at being regularly drained by more than a small amount. Running the fan off the starter battery for a few hours a day would massively shorten the life of the battery.
The problem I see is that because the blower motor needs a lot of watts to be useful the solar panel would also be quite large and expensive and intrusive to engineer.
The only car I can think of that used this concept is the ill-fated Maybach which used it to run the HVAC (though the 63W quoted in some articles is probably only enough for the V).
posted by grahamparks at 5:30 AM on March 15, 2021
I think you're underestimating both how much power a decent sized blower motor uses and how terrible car starter batteries are at being regularly drained by more than a small amount. Running the fan off the starter battery for a few hours a day would massively shorten the life of the battery.
The problem I see is that because the blower motor needs a lot of watts to be useful the solar panel would also be quite large and expensive and intrusive to engineer.
The only car I can think of that used this concept is the ill-fated Maybach which used it to run the HVAC (though the 63W quoted in some articles is probably only enough for the V).
posted by grahamparks at 5:30 AM on March 15, 2021
If I'm not mistaken, Teslas can be set up to ventilate the interior to at least keep it closer to ambient on a hot day. And like you said, it wouldn't make the slightest dent in the capacity of the battery of one of those things. Running the A/C would only make sense a few minutes before you get into the car.
I'm not sure why Mazda ditched this. I believe it was on their flagship 929 models in the early 90s. Probably due to the complexity. And due to the fact that you can bring a car down to ambient in seconds by lowering all of the windows and driving for a bit to give the A/C a chance.
posted by drstrangelove at 5:32 AM on March 15, 2021
I'm not sure why Mazda ditched this. I believe it was on their flagship 929 models in the early 90s. Probably due to the complexity. And due to the fact that you can bring a car down to ambient in seconds by lowering all of the windows and driving for a bit to give the A/C a chance.
posted by drstrangelove at 5:32 AM on March 15, 2021
Graham, he was talking about an EV's battery. Obviously a blower fan wouldn't take long to drain a regular lead-acid car battery.
posted by drstrangelove at 5:34 AM on March 15, 2021
posted by drstrangelove at 5:34 AM on March 15, 2021
I think you're underestimating both how much power a decent sized blower motor uses and how terrible car starter batteries are at being regularly drained by more than a small amount. Running the fan off the starter battery for a few hours a day would massively shorten the life of the battery.
I said spinning an alternator - IC car - or carrying significant battery cap - EV.
Graham, he was talking about an EV's battery
She.
posted by Dysk at 6:02 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I said spinning an alternator - IC car - or carrying significant battery cap - EV.
Graham, he was talking about an EV's battery
She.
posted by Dysk at 6:02 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I wonder if it didn't catch on because opening the windows (or putting in the AC) when you get in the car is going to be as effective
Oh, man, no. When I lived in TX I'd have loved something built-in to evacuate the hot air as it's generated.
Sitting down in a car whose interior has equilibrated to 60-70C just suuuuucks. The seat, the shifter, the console, the door panels are all that hot and radiating at you. The dash and steering wheel are probably in direct sun and even hotter. Getting into a car that was just at the ambient 45C would have been a joy.
Opening your window when you get in does fuck-all because all the stuff in the interior is still radiating at you. A/C does basically nothing until it's managed to suck the heat out of the seats and door panels and dash and so on. Suuuuucks.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:57 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Oh, man, no. When I lived in TX I'd have loved something built-in to evacuate the hot air as it's generated.
Sitting down in a car whose interior has equilibrated to 60-70C just suuuuucks. The seat, the shifter, the console, the door panels are all that hot and radiating at you. The dash and steering wheel are probably in direct sun and even hotter. Getting into a car that was just at the ambient 45C would have been a joy.
Opening your window when you get in does fuck-all because all the stuff in the interior is still radiating at you. A/C does basically nothing until it's managed to suck the heat out of the seats and door panels and dash and so on. Suuuuucks.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:57 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
You want to know how to vent the car quickly? Open the driver's side door and leave it open. Go around to the passenger's side. Open that door. Give a few good quick swings nearly closing it and fully opening it fairly quickly. Close passenger door and head back to driver's side. The car will be filled with ambient air instead of hot.
No ridiculous complexity needed.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:21 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
No ridiculous complexity needed.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:21 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
this thread has been really great for recalibrating my thinking around solar powered cars, and solar logistics in general. Thank you everyone :)
posted by snerson at 7:28 AM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by snerson at 7:28 AM on March 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Opening your window when you get in does fuck-all because all the stuff in the interior is still radiating at you.
Soon as you start the car moving, it absolutely does clear a lot of the heat. And a ventilation system isn't going to cure that solar absorption/radiation problem, just put a small dent in it. If you have AC, it doesn't take many minutes to cool a car interior down.
I grew up in Hong Kong, and my parents had a car that lived parked outside, in the sun, and didn't have working AC half the time (used cars without reliable AC were effectively devoid of meaningful value at that point in HK, which is the only reason my family could afford one). I've a lot of experience getting into basically saunas on wheels.
posted by Dysk at 7:51 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Soon as you start the car moving, it absolutely does clear a lot of the heat. And a ventilation system isn't going to cure that solar absorption/radiation problem, just put a small dent in it. If you have AC, it doesn't take many minutes to cool a car interior down.
I grew up in Hong Kong, and my parents had a car that lived parked outside, in the sun, and didn't have working AC half the time (used cars without reliable AC were effectively devoid of meaningful value at that point in HK, which is the only reason my family could afford one). I've a lot of experience getting into basically saunas on wheels.
posted by Dysk at 7:51 AM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Driving with the windows down seems to help but then again my daily driver had the A/C deleted by the former owner so that's all I have. If it wasn't for the fear of a freak rainstorm I'd leave the sunroof cracked.
posted by drstrangelove at 8:15 AM on March 15, 2021
posted by drstrangelove at 8:15 AM on March 15, 2021
> solar cells on a Sion can generate up to 1.2 kilowatts a day.
I bet it'll make the Kessel run in very few parsecs too...
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:40 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I bet it'll make the Kessel run in very few parsecs too...
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:40 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the US there are approximately one-hundred point seven billion square miles of parking lots. Why not just put up solar panel roofs over all of that? Then you have an obscene amount of energy being collected, (which you can plug your car into) and plus it give the people protection from the sun and rain when they're going into/out of stores.
posted by nushustu at 8:42 AM on March 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 8:42 AM on March 15, 2021 [6 favorites]
There are a few Walmarts in Arizona testing solar panel-covered parking lots. Behold, the new urbanism and $4.98 hot rotisserie chickens.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:49 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:49 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
nushustu,
I was somewhere in New Mexico a few years ago and I saw that there was a Wal-Mart that did exactly that. If nothing else is made parking there in that heat island lagoon more bearable on a hot day. And it certainly makes a lot more sense than building roads out of solar panels as with the "solar freaking roadways" nonsense.
posted by drstrangelove at 9:41 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was somewhere in New Mexico a few years ago and I saw that there was a Wal-Mart that did exactly that. If nothing else is made parking there in that heat island lagoon more bearable on a hot day. And it certainly makes a lot more sense than building roads out of solar panels as with the "solar freaking roadways" nonsense.
posted by drstrangelove at 9:41 AM on March 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am looking forward to the day when PV panel and mounting hardware costs have dropped enough to let shade infrastructure provide enough electricity to be a no-brainer money making proposition for the owners of the spaces it shades.
And it certainly makes a lot more sense than building roads out of solar panels as with the "solar freaking roadways" nonsense.
Came to mention these points. US parking infrastructure is largely not covered because it's a bit more expensive to do so. With panels getting cheaper and incentives getting larger, that calculation is changing pretty quickly, particularly with box-store realtors in the SW.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:52 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
And it certainly makes a lot more sense than building roads out of solar panels as with the "solar freaking roadways" nonsense.
Came to mention these points. US parking infrastructure is largely not covered because it's a bit more expensive to do so. With panels getting cheaper and incentives getting larger, that calculation is changing pretty quickly, particularly with box-store realtors in the SW.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:52 AM on March 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
What I would really like to see is a standard protocol for in-car charging electronics to use to negotiate pricing with any charge/discharge point it's connected to and also to transfer money as well as charge, probably using a low-energy, cheap-transaction cryptocurrency protocol such as Stellar with an in-car wallet.
Picture that New Mexico Wal-Mart lot with, say, 50% occupancy of parked cars, each of which has been given instructions to attempt to maintain at least some minimum level of charge chosen by the owner, along with a maximum price per kWh for charge acquired from its parking bay and a minimum price per kWh for charge supplied back to it.
All day the parking lot would be exchanging energy and money with the cars under its panels, using their aggregated above-minimum-level capacity as a very large storage reserve some of whose capacity it could sell to the grid for load levelling, peak shaving or frequency maintenance purposes.
Cars would be buying energy from the charge points when it was cheap and/or they needed a lot of it and selling it back when it was expensive and/or they didn't. If insolation was high and grid demand low, cars could even end up being paid to soak up excess generation capacity.
I would also expect parking lot operators to be able to make consistently more money under this kind of arrangement than they could if all they had to offer was pure PV capacity.
This would be a hugely more effective use of available solar PV and battery storage capacity, both from efficiency and economic standpoints, than islanding both of those in each car.
posted by flabdablet at 8:42 PM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Picture that New Mexico Wal-Mart lot with, say, 50% occupancy of parked cars, each of which has been given instructions to attempt to maintain at least some minimum level of charge chosen by the owner, along with a maximum price per kWh for charge acquired from its parking bay and a minimum price per kWh for charge supplied back to it.
All day the parking lot would be exchanging energy and money with the cars under its panels, using their aggregated above-minimum-level capacity as a very large storage reserve some of whose capacity it could sell to the grid for load levelling, peak shaving or frequency maintenance purposes.
Cars would be buying energy from the charge points when it was cheap and/or they needed a lot of it and selling it back when it was expensive and/or they didn't. If insolation was high and grid demand low, cars could even end up being paid to soak up excess generation capacity.
I would also expect parking lot operators to be able to make consistently more money under this kind of arrangement than they could if all they had to offer was pure PV capacity.
This would be a hugely more effective use of available solar PV and battery storage capacity, both from efficiency and economic standpoints, than islanding both of those in each car.
posted by flabdablet at 8:42 PM on March 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Of course, in the end it would be best if we didn't have giant parking lagoons for Big Box stores in the first place and communities where smaller locally-owned shops in walkable neighborhoods still existed for necessities. Finding other ways to power our cars just seems like the ultimate in kicking the can down the road.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:24 AM on March 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by drstrangelove at 4:24 AM on March 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
The beauty of the kind of distributed-incentives scheme I'm talking about here is that it doesn't rely on physical proximity. A city council, for example, could implement the same thing across all the on-street parking bays and little off-street parking lots within its jurisdiction and it would work the same; no huge lagoons required.
I'd certainly rather see my own local council spending my rates on car-interactive PV parking bay shades than on parking meters.
posted by flabdablet at 5:49 AM on March 16, 2021
I'd certainly rather see my own local council spending my rates on car-interactive PV parking bay shades than on parking meters.
posted by flabdablet at 5:49 AM on March 16, 2021
Opening your window when you get in does fuck-all because all the stuff in the interior is still radiating at you. A/C does basically nothing until it's managed to suck the heat out of the seats and door panels and dash and so on. Suuuuucks.
Most cars don't even have A/C vents in the back seats, until you get to the +$30k models.
That's why everyone buys SUVs instead.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:04 AM on March 16, 2021
Most cars don't even have A/C vents in the back seats, until you get to the +$30k models.
That's why everyone buys SUVs instead.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:04 AM on March 16, 2021
In the US, if solar panels on cars become a Thing, jerkholes will vandalize them in the same spirit as 'rolling coal'. It's to despair of.
posted by theora55 at 7:50 AM on March 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 7:50 AM on March 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the US there are approximately one-hundred point seven billion square miles of parking lots. Why not just put up solar panel roofs over all of that
To reiterate what others are saying, this is happening all over the place around me. The neighborhood high school did it this winter, the park-and-ride lots for the commuter train have done it, it’s on the parking structures for the near by college. It’s happening fast.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:30 PM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
To reiterate what others are saying, this is happening all over the place around me. The neighborhood high school did it this winter, the park-and-ride lots for the commuter train have done it, it’s on the parking structures for the near by college. It’s happening fast.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:30 PM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm on a facebook group for people building DIY teardrop camping trailers and there a couple people whose tow vehicle is a Tesla covering good portions of the camper with solar cells. Places where is it sunny all summer they can get a couple hours drive time over of a week end and run a little 12V cooler/fridge.
posted by Mitheral at 7:22 PM on April 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 7:22 PM on April 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by deadaluspark at 11:12 AM on March 14, 2021 [3 favorites]