He’s a Dogecoin Millionaire. And He’s Not Selling.
May 14, 2021 5:39 PM Subscribe
Glauber Contessoto went looking for something that could change his fortunes overnight. He found it in a joke cryptocurrency. What explains Dogecoin’s durability, then?
There’s no doubt that Dogecoin mania, like GameStop mania before it, is at least partly attributable to some combination of pandemic-era boredom and the eternal appeal of get-rich-quick schemes.
But there may be more structural forces at work. Over the past few years, soaring housing costs, record student loan debt and historically low interest rates have made it harder for some young people to imagine achieving financial stability by slowly working their way up the career ladder and saving money paycheck by paycheck, the way their parents did.
Instead of ladders, these people are looking for trampolines — risky, volatile investments that could either result in a life-changing windfall or send them right back to where they started.
I moved to the US in 1984 (and stayed for 20 years) - very pre-internet - all of my impressions of US culture prior to that were TV/movies - one of the things I picked up on really early was that large swathes of the population genuinely believed that they were going to hit it big one day, from the lottery/vegas/whatever, not so much the American Dream, but an American Delusion - it explained things like "Life Styles of the Rich and Famous" and the GOP - sadly I guess some things still haven't changed.
Perhaps US society needs more, well telegraphed, signposts directing ones way to a comfortable life in the middle class rather than ones to unobtainable riches beyond the reach of mere mortals
posted by mbo at 6:14 PM on May 14, 2021 [32 favorites]
Perhaps US society needs more, well telegraphed, signposts directing ones way to a comfortable life in the middle class rather than ones to unobtainable riches beyond the reach of mere mortals
posted by mbo at 6:14 PM on May 14, 2021 [32 favorites]
...one of the things I picked up on really early was that large swathes of the population genuinely believed that they were going to hit it big one day, from the lottery/vegas/whatever, not so much the American Dream, but an American Delusion.
“Temporarily embarrassed millionaires“ is the term, I believe.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:18 PM on May 14, 2021 [34 favorites]
“Temporarily embarrassed millionaires“ is the term, I believe.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:18 PM on May 14, 2021 [34 favorites]
Perhaps US society needs more, well telegraphed, signposts directing ones way to a comfortable life in the middle class rather than ones to unobtainable riches beyond the reach of mere mortals
The context a middle class needs to exist is one in which consistent effort generates consistent returns. That described basically the postwar boom up to the nineties, and that world no longer exists. With extreme wealth inequality, interest rates this low, stock market returns requiring extreme patience at best and nobody taxing wealth, the result is inevitably going to be monstrously inflationary bubbles wherever a large enough quantity of sufficiently bored money can cause them to happen.
posted by mhoye at 7:04 PM on May 14, 2021 [29 favorites]
The context a middle class needs to exist is one in which consistent effort generates consistent returns. That described basically the postwar boom up to the nineties, and that world no longer exists. With extreme wealth inequality, interest rates this low, stock market returns requiring extreme patience at best and nobody taxing wealth, the result is inevitably going to be monstrously inflationary bubbles wherever a large enough quantity of sufficiently bored money can cause them to happen.
posted by mhoye at 7:04 PM on May 14, 2021 [29 favorites]
Perhaps US society needs more, well telegraphed, signposts directing ones way to a comfortable life in the middle class rather than ones to unobtainable riches beyond the reach of mere mortals
If we’re gonna fantasize about the future we might as well fantasize about being rich. A “comfortable life in the middle class” is as out of reach for most folks as a luxury yacht.
posted by Jawn at 7:08 PM on May 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
If we’re gonna fantasize about the future we might as well fantasize about being rich. A “comfortable life in the middle class” is as out of reach for most folks as a luxury yacht.
posted by Jawn at 7:08 PM on May 14, 2021 [19 favorites]
>soaring housing costs, record student loan debt and historically low interest rates have made it harder for some young people to imagine achieving financial stability by slowly working their way up the career ladder and saving money paycheck by paycheck
So the guy in the article could scarcely imagine achieving financial stability, but he had 250K to invest in this god damn foolishness? Something about this narrative doesn't pass the sniff test.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:18 PM on May 14, 2021 [57 favorites]
So the guy in the article could scarcely imagine achieving financial stability, but he had 250K to invest in this god damn foolishness? Something about this narrative doesn't pass the sniff test.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:18 PM on May 14, 2021 [57 favorites]
I learned a new term this week: support yacht.
posted by LURK at 7:18 PM on May 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by LURK at 7:18 PM on May 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
It would be pretty cool to tool around in those mega-yachts...
Doesn't seem likely to happen though. But a question.
If you became a multi-billonaire, how would you change? How much would that fuck you up?
posted by Windopaene at 7:34 PM on May 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
Doesn't seem likely to happen though. But a question.
If you became a multi-billonaire, how would you change? How much would that fuck you up?
posted by Windopaene at 7:34 PM on May 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
(I've mentioned this before here) - I used to work rather indirectly for a billionaire (he owned the company I worked for, I didn't work for him directly) - it seemed a sad life to me, he couldn't walk out in the world, he would schedule board meetings on multiple different days and randomly choose one to attend - essentially if you have billions of dollars a million or two for ransom if you get kidnapped is chump change, but chances are if you do get kidnapped you'll be killed - so you have security everywhere, you can't just decide to go for a walk on the beach .... unless you own the beach
posted by mbo at 8:28 PM on May 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by mbo at 8:28 PM on May 14, 2021 [6 favorites]
Building spacecraft and a small navy could help with that.
Like stocks 100 years ago, CC is not quite a viable fiat per say. For example:
"All right...but gold on the table...I mean cash,"... And tell him I'll throw in my lumbago."
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 PM on May 14, 2021
Like stocks 100 years ago, CC is not quite a viable fiat per say. For example:
"All right...but gold on the table...I mean cash,"... And tell him I'll throw in my lumbago."
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 PM on May 14, 2021
I think that a large middle class is the most important cultural innovation of the past century - it's what keeps us from wars, having too many people with too much to lose is a really important thing that creates stability - the people who won WW2 understood that, the Marshall plans (and the Japanese equivalent) turned Germany/Japan into countries with large middle classes.
There's an aphorism that no two countries with a McDonalds have ever gone to war (it's not quite true) - it's really a story about countries having middle classes not wanting to go to war, they have too much to lose.
China has recently gone through this change too with a growing middle class, that's a really great thing. Meanwhile destroying the US's middle class is a world destabilising thing
posted by mbo at 9:11 PM on May 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
There's an aphorism that no two countries with a McDonalds have ever gone to war (it's not quite true) - it's really a story about countries having middle classes not wanting to go to war, they have too much to lose.
China has recently gone through this change too with a growing middle class, that's a really great thing. Meanwhile destroying the US's middle class is a world destabilising thing
posted by mbo at 9:11 PM on May 14, 2021 [21 favorites]
I'm not sure I'm sold mbo, if it were such a burden he could certainly donate it in a lot of different ways. I'm not sure I find it so easy to sympathize when it's such a problem of their own creation.
posted by Carillon at 10:12 PM on May 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Carillon at 10:12 PM on May 14, 2021 [1 favorite]
How would he pay taxes on liquidating something like this? Is it just straightforward short-term capital gains?
posted by mr_roboto at 10:24 PM on May 14, 2021
posted by mr_roboto at 10:24 PM on May 14, 2021
Cryptocurrencies are a big poker pot. Money in equals money out. There are no assets, no revenue, and no business model with profit and growth. It’s just a single pot of money with winners taking out and losers putting in.
For every one crypto millionaire there is, by the laws of elementary school mathematics, a bigger number of losers. But the NY Times doesn’t write about those people.
That’s how you end up with a society of temporarily embarrassed millionaires, because all of our media only talks about the winner at the poker table and not the much more numerous losers. Survivorship bias reigns.
posted by Skwirl at 11:27 PM on May 14, 2021 [32 favorites]
For every one crypto millionaire there is, by the laws of elementary school mathematics, a bigger number of losers. But the NY Times doesn’t write about those people.
That’s how you end up with a society of temporarily embarrassed millionaires, because all of our media only talks about the winner at the poker table and not the much more numerous losers. Survivorship bias reigns.
posted by Skwirl at 11:27 PM on May 14, 2021 [32 favorites]
The appeal of lottery tickets lies less in any expectation of winning than in the opportunity to dream you might win one day. The dreaming itself is the whole product, and it's the chance to indulge in that dream for another week that people are really choosing to buy. Maybe some of this psychology applies in the world of crypto-currencies too?
posted by Paul Slade at 1:04 AM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 1:04 AM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
If you became a multi-billonaire, how would you change?
For a start, I'd keep very quiet about it.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 2:00 AM on May 15, 2021 [14 favorites]
For a start, I'd keep very quiet about it.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 2:00 AM on May 15, 2021 [14 favorites]
I think that a large middle class is the most important cultural innovation of the past century
Well, it did prove that Karl Marx was absolutely right. (Only about the problem, unfortunately - not the solution.)
posted by Cardinal Fang at 2:01 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Well, it did prove that Karl Marx was absolutely right. (Only about the problem, unfortunately - not the solution.)
posted by Cardinal Fang at 2:01 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
How would he pay taxes on liquidating something like this? Is it just straightforward short-term capital gains?
Essentially yes, you subtract your original cost from what you get when you sell it and then pay tax on that difference - in the US that's at your marginal rate unless you can convince the IRS it's a long term capital gain
posted by mbo at 2:33 AM on May 15, 2021
Essentially yes, you subtract your original cost from what you get when you sell it and then pay tax on that difference - in the US that's at your marginal rate unless you can convince the IRS it's a long term capital gain
posted by mbo at 2:33 AM on May 15, 2021
I owned millions of dogecoins when it was largely a joke and got rid of them all to purge annoying crypto stuff from my brain, but don't feel I've narrowly missed out on riches.
I'd have had to hang onto them past so many surges in value, ignoring the possibility that each could be the final peak, convinced that the rise to tens of cents was inevitable.
I'd have had to be a totally different person.
posted by malevolent at 3:12 AM on May 15, 2021 [14 favorites]
I'd have had to hang onto them past so many surges in value, ignoring the possibility that each could be the final peak, convinced that the rise to tens of cents was inevitable.
I'd have had to be a totally different person.
posted by malevolent at 3:12 AM on May 15, 2021 [14 favorites]
For every one crypto millionaire there is, by the laws of elementary school mathematics, a bigger number of losers.
Not if it keeps on going up: "the price is just a number, 50,000 is nothing it could be 100,000 next year, these aren't tulips, everyone's a winner".
Of course eventually the market will find the true value of a currency, that is impossibly expensive to trade with, is somewhere close to zero. The only question is who will be the bigger fool left holding the bag?
posted by Lanark at 3:36 AM on May 15, 2021
Not if it keeps on going up: "the price is just a number, 50,000 is nothing it could be 100,000 next year, these aren't tulips, everyone's a winner".
Of course eventually the market will find the true value of a currency, that is impossibly expensive to trade with, is somewhere close to zero. The only question is who will be the bigger fool left holding the bag?
posted by Lanark at 3:36 AM on May 15, 2021
Cryptocurrencies are pretty much all tulips. They have a chance of not being tulips if enough people started transacting enough for real world goods and services, but even Bitcoin is nowhere near that point.
posted by wierdo at 4:46 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 4:46 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't even know what Dogecoin or any other cryptocurrency *is* (I've tried, it's beyond me), but for a couple of years now a sketchy variety store below a massage parlour near where I work has had an electronic banner sign advertising Dogecoin for sale, and now I kind of wish I'd bought some as a souvenir, because Doge the meme still always cracks me up.
> With extreme wealth inequality, interest rates this low...
Seems like central banks can basically never raise interest rates significantly because the entirety of what's left of the middle class would instantly go bankrupt.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:13 AM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
> With extreme wealth inequality, interest rates this low...
Seems like central banks can basically never raise interest rates significantly because the entirety of what's left of the middle class would instantly go bankrupt.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:13 AM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
> I owned millions of dogecoins when it was largely a joke and got rid of them all to purge annoying crypto stuff from my brain, but don't feel I've narrowly missed out on riches.
I had way less crypto than you. But trying to learn about crypto as a laymen, while having even a small amount and secretly hoping it not only goes up in numbers but actually provides a service/ solves real problems without in fact being shady, was causing me mild anxiety.
Once I sold em, it was way easier to observe and come to honest opinions about it all, regardless of numbers going up or down.
posted by room9 at 6:16 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I had way less crypto than you. But trying to learn about crypto as a laymen, while having even a small amount and secretly hoping it not only goes up in numbers but actually provides a service/ solves real problems without in fact being shady, was causing me mild anxiety.
Once I sold em, it was way easier to observe and come to honest opinions about it all, regardless of numbers going up or down.
posted by room9 at 6:16 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Assuming they picked the next coin Musk and his ilk want to promote.
I picked Stellar lumens because I thought the idea of a decentralized cryptocurrency not reliant on the profligate waste of energy inherent in proof-of-work protocols like those used by Bitcoin and Ethereum (and, yes, Dogecoin) was both interesting and potentially very useful.
They're appreciating nicely, currently trading at a little over ten times what they were when I bought them a year and a half ago, easily the best gains I've seen on any of a diversity of speculative and investment purchases over that time period. And I like that there's a Stellar wallet built into the Keybase messaging app I use every day as this makes losing a wallet to app rot quite unlikely.
Of course eventually the market will find the true value of a currency, that is impossibly expensive to trade with, is somewhere close to zero. The only question is who will be the bigger fool left holding the bag?
Stellar works better, faster and cheaper for peer-to-peer currency transfer than anything else I've seen, and it's coin-agnostic; you can move any kind of token over it, not just lumens. In particular, it leaves the Bitcoin and Ethereum protocols in the dust on transaction speed, cost and scalability. So I think there's a reasonable chance that both Stellar and its administrative tokens will survive the digital tulip Ponzi scheme phase.
But really, as long as something supersedes the appalling Bitcoin protocol and variants, I don't really care what it is. There is zero excuse for continuing to waste as much energy as that particular flavour of artificial stupidity does when modern alternatives are available that address all its design goals better and at a microscopic fraction of the cost.
Meanwhile I'll happily keep on accumulating whatever value the greater fools are apparently so keen to keep tossing in my direction. If I'm lucky, they'll fund me a comfortable earth-sheltered house for my dotage.
posted by flabdablet at 6:30 AM on May 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
I picked Stellar lumens because I thought the idea of a decentralized cryptocurrency not reliant on the profligate waste of energy inherent in proof-of-work protocols like those used by Bitcoin and Ethereum (and, yes, Dogecoin) was both interesting and potentially very useful.
They're appreciating nicely, currently trading at a little over ten times what they were when I bought them a year and a half ago, easily the best gains I've seen on any of a diversity of speculative and investment purchases over that time period. And I like that there's a Stellar wallet built into the Keybase messaging app I use every day as this makes losing a wallet to app rot quite unlikely.
Of course eventually the market will find the true value of a currency, that is impossibly expensive to trade with, is somewhere close to zero. The only question is who will be the bigger fool left holding the bag?
Stellar works better, faster and cheaper for peer-to-peer currency transfer than anything else I've seen, and it's coin-agnostic; you can move any kind of token over it, not just lumens. In particular, it leaves the Bitcoin and Ethereum protocols in the dust on transaction speed, cost and scalability. So I think there's a reasonable chance that both Stellar and its administrative tokens will survive the digital tulip Ponzi scheme phase.
But really, as long as something supersedes the appalling Bitcoin protocol and variants, I don't really care what it is. There is zero excuse for continuing to waste as much energy as that particular flavour of artificial stupidity does when modern alternatives are available that address all its design goals better and at a microscopic fraction of the cost.
Meanwhile I'll happily keep on accumulating whatever value the greater fools are apparently so keen to keep tossing in my direction. If I'm lucky, they'll fund me a comfortable earth-sheltered house for my dotage.
posted by flabdablet at 6:30 AM on May 15, 2021 [8 favorites]
If you became a multi-billonaire, how would you change? How much would that fuck you up?
I, to put it simply, would not. It is literally impossible to become that rich and be a good person.
posted by FirstMateKate at 6:54 AM on May 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
I, to put it simply, would not. It is literally impossible to become that rich and be a good person.
posted by FirstMateKate at 6:54 AM on May 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
Seems like central banks can basically never raise interest rates significantly because the entirety of what's left of the middle class would instantly go bankrupt.
And why would they? High interest rates help no-one but the people (not institutions) who already have boatloads of money, and want someplace 'safe' to invest it. They don't even help banks, the spread on getting at 1% and loaning at 3% is 2%, the spread on getting at 4.5% and loaning at 5% is .5%.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:41 AM on May 15, 2021
And why would they? High interest rates help no-one but the people (not institutions) who already have boatloads of money, and want someplace 'safe' to invest it. They don't even help banks, the spread on getting at 1% and loaning at 3% is 2%, the spread on getting at 4.5% and loaning at 5% is .5%.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:41 AM on May 15, 2021
Can someone help me here? I've wondered this from the beginning but refuse to search for it. Is it pronounced like "Doggiecoin", "Dodgecoin", or "Dooogecoin"
posted by hwyengr at 8:12 AM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by hwyengr at 8:12 AM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
annoyingly enough its none of those. the doge part is pronounced like a combination of "dough" and a zh sound. so sort of like dowzh with a long o.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:26 AM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by lazaruslong at 8:26 AM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
If you became a multi-billonaire, how would you change? How much would that fuck you up?
I would never seek to become a multi-billionaire, because I can conceive of the desire to wield that much power in no other way but as a serious mental illness.
However, in the hypothetical case that I woke up tomorrow and found myselfchanged into a monstrous verminous bug suddenly and non-erroneously in control of billions of dollars, I honestly think the only thing I'd change about the way I live right now is that I'd make a serious start on the process of designing and building the earth-sheltered home in which I plan to spend my declining years before passing it on to the kids. I would expect this to cost me less than a twentieth of one percent of one of the billions.
As for the rest of them, what I'd like to do most of all with those is buy up open-cut coal mines, close them down, rehabilitate their landscapes, turn them into solar photovoltaic farms with integrated liquid metal battery storage, and plough such money as they make back into maintaining and replicating those projects. If that were to prove financially sustainable, well and good; but if all it achieved was keeping significant amounts of coal in the ground where it belongs for at least the next few centuries, I'd consider it a huge win.
posted by flabdablet at 9:05 AM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
I would never seek to become a multi-billionaire, because I can conceive of the desire to wield that much power in no other way but as a serious mental illness.
However, in the hypothetical case that I woke up tomorrow and found myself
As for the rest of them, what I'd like to do most of all with those is buy up open-cut coal mines, close them down, rehabilitate their landscapes, turn them into solar photovoltaic farms with integrated liquid metal battery storage, and plough such money as they make back into maintaining and replicating those projects. If that were to prove financially sustainable, well and good; but if all it achieved was keeping significant amounts of coal in the ground where it belongs for at least the next few centuries, I'd consider it a huge win.
posted by flabdablet at 9:05 AM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Can someone help me here? I've wondered this from the beginning but refuse to search for it. Is it pronounced like "Doggiecoin", "Dodgecoin", or "Dooogecoin"
Dodgycoin.
(not really)
posted by gurple at 9:57 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Dodgycoin.
(not really)
posted by gurple at 9:57 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
As for the rest of them, what I'd like to do most of all with those is buy up open-cut coal mines, close them down, rehabilitate their landscapes
One of the worst things about the mining industry is that even a billion dollars won't get you very far on that project. In most cases, the entire output of the mine is sold for less money than it would take to ameliorate (not fully repair, just stop the ongoing slow motion disaster) the damage they cause.
posted by wierdo at 11:18 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
One of the worst things about the mining industry is that even a billion dollars won't get you very far on that project. In most cases, the entire output of the mine is sold for less money than it would take to ameliorate (not fully repair, just stop the ongoing slow motion disaster) the damage they cause.
posted by wierdo at 11:18 AM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
A friend of mine insisted on putting some money into crypto for me after I did him a favour recently. The other day he told me something along the lines of "if I'd done this 2 months ago you'd be nearly a millionaire by now". My immediate reaction was remembering the few times I know of when I narrowly missed death or serious injury. Most of us miss all kinds of other lives by inches multiple times, and also go through multiple transformative experiences without really noticing. Holding onto any particular possibility seems like a pretty sure way to make yourself discontent, because even if it comes true, you still might get knocked down by a car or whatever. I guess it comes down to the story of the old man who lost his horse: events just continue to occur (although not necessarily to you) and judging where you are now against some sort of predicted future or alternative history is dependent on buying the myth that some sequence of events could lock in happiness/wealth/safety/survival/whatever. Even if it doesn't make you miserable, it will definitely make you wrong, and susceptible to screwing things up as a result.
TL;DR: who knows why the fuck anything happens?
posted by howfar at 12:48 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
TL;DR: who knows why the fuck anything happens?
posted by howfar at 12:48 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
I had purchased Bitcoin about a year ago, and started getting increasingly uneasy about the carbon footprint. When Bill Gates made a statement about the footprint I sold around 63k for a minimal profit - I’d only put small ball money in.
Do we really think there’s a future with crypto? I mean, in some form, I think so? But it’s impossible for me to feel like any one coin legitimately has a chance to become something people would use readily. It’s just speculative to me.
The Daily interview with Contessoto put into perspective how ridiculous the Dogecoin thing is. He isn’t a millionaire in reality, and he’s holding the coin and not selling because of online peer pressure. If he’s really hard on money - which I question because no story is as neat and tidy as “oh I became a millionaire on dogecoin and I’m not selling” - then I fear he and many others are in for a very very rude ending.
posted by glaucon at 12:56 PM on May 15, 2021
Do we really think there’s a future with crypto? I mean, in some form, I think so? But it’s impossible for me to feel like any one coin legitimately has a chance to become something people would use readily. It’s just speculative to me.
The Daily interview with Contessoto put into perspective how ridiculous the Dogecoin thing is. He isn’t a millionaire in reality, and he’s holding the coin and not selling because of online peer pressure. If he’s really hard on money - which I question because no story is as neat and tidy as “oh I became a millionaire on dogecoin and I’m not selling” - then I fear he and many others are in for a very very rude ending.
posted by glaucon at 12:56 PM on May 15, 2021
Crypto currencies are not even as good as tulip bulbs. Tulip bulbs have genuine value as goods with utility: they produce tulip plants, flowers (hopefully rare and beautiful ones) and more bulbs, and you can even eat them if desperate. A bunch of bytes as a currency only have exchange value and nothing intrinsic.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:26 PM on May 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:26 PM on May 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
If you became a multi-billonaire, how would you change?
You know how when you get a bag of pistachios, some of them are really hard to open? I'd just throw those ones away.
.
(tip o' the cone to Bobby W. for that'n)
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 2:01 PM on May 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
You know how when you get a bag of pistachios, some of them are really hard to open? I'd just throw those ones away.
.
(tip o' the cone to Bobby W. for that'n)
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 2:01 PM on May 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Assuming they picked the next coin Musk and his ilk want to promote.
Apparently Musk has decreed that Tesla will no longer accept bitcoin, given the environmental concerns. I have a long list of problems with the guy but at least he's seeing the light on this.
posted by Ber at 2:14 PM on May 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Apparently Musk has decreed that Tesla will no longer accept bitcoin, given the environmental concerns. I have a long list of problems with the guy but at least he's seeing the light on this.
posted by Ber at 2:14 PM on May 15, 2021 [4 favorites]
Going to start putting money into yuan.
posted by gucci mane at 4:32 PM on May 15, 2021
posted by gucci mane at 4:32 PM on May 15, 2021
Good luck getting it back out.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 4:41 PM on May 15, 2021
posted by Huffy Puffy at 4:41 PM on May 15, 2021
My reasons for dreaming of being a millionaire is because there's no safety rails in American life; a few big events (layoff, cancer, etc.) and you tumble right down to the bottom. A million dollars (or whatever a big lottery win would be) would keep me and people I love safer.
I'd much rather just have a society where it wasn't possible to be homeless, starve, or die from lack of medical care.
posted by emjaybee at 4:49 PM on May 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'd much rather just have a society where it wasn't possible to be homeless, starve, or die from lack of medical care.
posted by emjaybee at 4:49 PM on May 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
My boyfriend recently remembered he bought Dash coin two years ago, and now it's 4x in value, about $800 in all.
So he tried to take it out at an atm nearby that supposedly accepts cryptocurrencies and wouldn't you know, there's an error. Then he tried to change it to bitcoin, the transaction took 24 hours,and during that time the wallet showed $0, not even an error - it looked like the money had completely vanished.
Now his buddy who's into crypto says to change it again to Lightcoin, which transacts faster than bitcoin, unless he wants to wait four hours at the ATM for the transaction to process
At any stage in this process someone could intercept his wallet password, remove the crypto from the account and theres nothing he could do about it because it's unregulated banking. Crypto is a scam. The money "goes up" in value on the screen and it's easy to buy more but good luck getting any of it out in dollars again.
posted by subdee at 6:47 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
So he tried to take it out at an atm nearby that supposedly accepts cryptocurrencies and wouldn't you know, there's an error. Then he tried to change it to bitcoin, the transaction took 24 hours,and during that time the wallet showed $0, not even an error - it looked like the money had completely vanished.
Now his buddy who's into crypto says to change it again to Lightcoin, which transacts faster than bitcoin, unless he wants to wait four hours at the ATM for the transaction to process
At any stage in this process someone could intercept his wallet password, remove the crypto from the account and theres nothing he could do about it because it's unregulated banking. Crypto is a scam. The money "goes up" in value on the screen and it's easy to buy more but good luck getting any of it out in dollars again.
posted by subdee at 6:47 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
'Green' bitcoin alternative Chia is leading to hard disc shortages
Seems legit, I was shopping for 8TB+ performance hard drives and Amazon is backordered through end of June.
AFAIK Chia doesn't even use the storage for anything except mining, while Filecoin at least allows usable data to be stored and retrieved...
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:58 PM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Seems legit, I was shopping for 8TB+ performance hard drives and Amazon is backordered through end of June.
AFAIK Chia doesn't even use the storage for anything except mining, while Filecoin at least allows usable data to be stored and retrieved...
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:58 PM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
it's easy to buy more but good luck getting any of it out in dollars again.
I have had no trouble moving quite substantial dollar amounts in both directions between my Australian bank and Independent Reserve. Both of them support Australia's New Payments Platform and the transfers have executed almost as fast as those I've done between multiple accounts on Stellar.
posted by flabdablet at 8:32 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I have had no trouble moving quite substantial dollar amounts in both directions between my Australian bank and Independent Reserve. Both of them support Australia's New Payments Platform and the transfers have executed almost as fast as those I've done between multiple accounts on Stellar.
posted by flabdablet at 8:32 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
hwyengr: "Can someone help me here? I've wondered this from the beginning but refuse to search for it. Is it pronounced like "Doggiecoin", "Dodgecoin", or "Dooogecoin""
The pronunciation was bothering me a lot, since it is based on the "Look at this doge!" memes, which is obviously dog or doggie, and definitely not this DOHJ nonsense, so I went looking for an explanation, and it comes back to this Strongbad. Memes within memes.
posted by team lowkey at 8:32 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
The pronunciation was bothering me a lot, since it is based on the "Look at this doge!" memes, which is obviously dog or doggie, and definitely not this DOHJ nonsense, so I went looking for an explanation, and it comes back to this Strongbad. Memes within memes.
posted by team lowkey at 8:32 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
'Green' bitcoin alternative Chia is leading to hard disc shortages
Looks like I need to expand my strong objections to ludicrous proof-of-work schemes to cover ludicrous proof-of-consumption schemes in general.
posted by flabdablet at 8:37 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Looks like I need to expand my strong objections to ludicrous proof-of-work schemes to cover ludicrous proof-of-consumption schemes in general.
posted by flabdablet at 8:37 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Now his buddy who's into crypto says to change it again to Lightcoin, which transacts faster than bitcoin, unless he wants to wait four hours at the ATM for the transaction to process
The BTC ATMs I've used (years ago) don't take nearly that long. On small transactions, they just give you the money, and bigger ones make you wait 3 blocks, which could be anywhere from 5 minutes it you're really lucky to an hour if you're particularly unlucky. The exchange rate is universally shit, though.
If only I'd waited a couple more years. I could have been a Bitcoin thousandaire!
posted by wierdo at 12:36 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
The BTC ATMs I've used (years ago) don't take nearly that long. On small transactions, they just give you the money, and bigger ones make you wait 3 blocks, which could be anywhere from 5 minutes it you're really lucky to an hour if you're particularly unlucky. The exchange rate is universally shit, though.
If only I'd waited a couple more years. I could have been a Bitcoin thousandaire!
posted by wierdo at 12:36 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have a long list of problems with the guy but at least he's seeing the light on this.
Well it's either that or he's engaging in price manipulation.
He's certainly trying to improve his public image, but the rest of what he's up to remains unclear to me. While moving from Bitcoin to other less egregiously wasteful cryptocurrencies is obviously a net good, given that it looks like crypto will be around for a fair while, Musk isn't demonstrating unambiguous commitment to even that goal. His public communication about this (e.g. asking if Tesla should take Dogecoin, which is considerably more efficient than Bitcoin) seems designed to create market movement while preserving his own billionaire's inherent information advantage, rather than primarily intended to push crypto in a less wasteful direction. Naturally it could be both, but Musk's track record indicates he'd sacrifice any environmental goals for a profit, should the chance arise.
God I hate thinking about Elon Musk. Time to go do something less futile!
posted by howfar at 7:42 AM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
Well it's either that or he's engaging in price manipulation.
He's certainly trying to improve his public image, but the rest of what he's up to remains unclear to me. While moving from Bitcoin to other less egregiously wasteful cryptocurrencies is obviously a net good, given that it looks like crypto will be around for a fair while, Musk isn't demonstrating unambiguous commitment to even that goal. His public communication about this (e.g. asking if Tesla should take Dogecoin, which is considerably more efficient than Bitcoin) seems designed to create market movement while preserving his own billionaire's inherent information advantage, rather than primarily intended to push crypto in a less wasteful direction. Naturally it could be both, but Musk's track record indicates he'd sacrifice any environmental goals for a profit, should the chance arise.
God I hate thinking about Elon Musk. Time to go do something less futile!
posted by howfar at 7:42 AM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
Dogecoin, which is considerably more efficient than Bitcoin
...only because its tokens are currently trading for a tiny fraction of what Bitcoin's are.
Dogecoin is a proof-of-work protocol just like Bitcoin is, so if it were to supersede Bitcoin and its token value appreciated accordingly, the world would still be pissing endless amounts of energy uselessly up the wall to achieve nothing more than what more modern protocols can do at astronomically greater efficiency.
Proof-of-work cryptocurrencies were an interesting proof of concept, but now that they're actually being used for stuff they're a fucking disaster. I rate further involvement with blockchain and cryptocurrency applications that rely on proof-of-consumption based protocols as complete moral failures.
Engineering failures, too. Continuing to deploy applications of these protocols is like making the standard C library implement qsort() using Bogosort.
posted by flabdablet at 8:07 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
...only because its tokens are currently trading for a tiny fraction of what Bitcoin's are.
Dogecoin is a proof-of-work protocol just like Bitcoin is, so if it were to supersede Bitcoin and its token value appreciated accordingly, the world would still be pissing endless amounts of energy uselessly up the wall to achieve nothing more than what more modern protocols can do at astronomically greater efficiency.
Proof-of-work cryptocurrencies were an interesting proof of concept, but now that they're actually being used for stuff they're a fucking disaster. I rate further involvement with blockchain and cryptocurrency applications that rely on proof-of-consumption based protocols as complete moral failures.
Engineering failures, too. Continuing to deploy applications of these protocols is like making the standard C library implement qsort() using Bogosort.
posted by flabdablet at 8:07 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Naturally it could be both, but Musk's track record indicates he'd sacrifice any environmental goals for a profit, should the chance arise.If you must think about him, I highly recommend having this song playing.
God I hate thinking about Elon Musk. Time to go do something less futile!
posted by adamsc at 10:04 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Bitcoin used to be a lot more efficient, before the arms race among miners got so nutty. Well, not really nutty since it's perfectly predictable with basic economic theory, but nutty in the sense that the network would work just fine if the total hash rate across the entire network suddenly decreased by several orders of magnitude.
Suddenly it doesn't seem so crazy to outlaw data centers full of mining rigs..
posted by wierdo at 10:17 AM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Suddenly it doesn't seem so crazy to outlaw data centers full of mining rigs..
posted by wierdo at 10:17 AM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
the network would work just fine if the total hash rate across the entire network suddenly decreased by several orders of magnitude
The entire design basis of Bitcoin is that everybody involved is acting in their own direct economic self-interest. The entire point of proof-of-work as a strategy is to prevent any single entity from acquiring enough computing power to force whatever blockchain they generate to be the longest one, thereby acquiring global control of the network and enabling whatever double-spending shenanigans they want. Running your mining rig as hard as you can possibly afford to, then, is the natural consequence of the Prisoner's Dilemma that's built into the foundations of Bitcoin.
So the only way the total hash rate across the entire Bitcoin network ever would decrease by several orders of magnitude in a fashion compatible with miner self-interest is if the reward available for mining blocks were to decrease by several orders of magnitude first, thereby making it economically unsustainable for any given miner to keep operating at the higher rate. The network would then respond to the consequent withdrawal of mining power by automatically reducing the mining difficulty to pull block generation speed back up to where it's supposed to be and would then, as you correctly point out, work just fine at the resulting much lower hash rate.
Those rewards do get decreased periodically via the regular halvenings built into the protocol. But the historical response to the two halvenings that have happened so far has been massive jumps in the dollar value of a Bitcoin; and because mining rewards are denominated in Bitcoin, the net effect of the halvenings so far has been to increase the dollar value of mining new blocks, and therefore the amount of energy it's economically feasible to burn on doing that, and therefore the amount of energy that every self-interested miner does burn on doing that.
The only way that the dollar reward for mining blocks is ever going to decrease by several orders of magnitude is if Bitcoin suffers a massive and permanent price collapse. Personally I'm hoping it does; both as an ex-engineer who finds the waste inherent in proof-of-work viscerally repulsive on both aesthetic and ecological grounds, and as a speculator who holds a reasonably large parcel of Stellar lumens, I would love to see a mass exodus from proof-of-work cryptocurrencies into those that don't require the flagrant and deliberate wastage of more energy than it actually takes to shove the bits around.
My direct economic self-interest is aligned with the common good in this respect because the protocol underlying the cryptocurrency I've chosen to speculate in is not completely fucking perverse.
posted by flabdablet at 12:26 PM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
The entire design basis of Bitcoin is that everybody involved is acting in their own direct economic self-interest. The entire point of proof-of-work as a strategy is to prevent any single entity from acquiring enough computing power to force whatever blockchain they generate to be the longest one, thereby acquiring global control of the network and enabling whatever double-spending shenanigans they want. Running your mining rig as hard as you can possibly afford to, then, is the natural consequence of the Prisoner's Dilemma that's built into the foundations of Bitcoin.
So the only way the total hash rate across the entire Bitcoin network ever would decrease by several orders of magnitude in a fashion compatible with miner self-interest is if the reward available for mining blocks were to decrease by several orders of magnitude first, thereby making it economically unsustainable for any given miner to keep operating at the higher rate. The network would then respond to the consequent withdrawal of mining power by automatically reducing the mining difficulty to pull block generation speed back up to where it's supposed to be and would then, as you correctly point out, work just fine at the resulting much lower hash rate.
Those rewards do get decreased periodically via the regular halvenings built into the protocol. But the historical response to the two halvenings that have happened so far has been massive jumps in the dollar value of a Bitcoin; and because mining rewards are denominated in Bitcoin, the net effect of the halvenings so far has been to increase the dollar value of mining new blocks, and therefore the amount of energy it's economically feasible to burn on doing that, and therefore the amount of energy that every self-interested miner does burn on doing that.
The only way that the dollar reward for mining blocks is ever going to decrease by several orders of magnitude is if Bitcoin suffers a massive and permanent price collapse. Personally I'm hoping it does; both as an ex-engineer who finds the waste inherent in proof-of-work viscerally repulsive on both aesthetic and ecological grounds, and as a speculator who holds a reasonably large parcel of Stellar lumens, I would love to see a mass exodus from proof-of-work cryptocurrencies into those that don't require the flagrant and deliberate wastage of more energy than it actually takes to shove the bits around.
My direct economic self-interest is aligned with the common good in this respect because the protocol underlying the cryptocurrency I've chosen to speculate in is not completely fucking perverse.
posted by flabdablet at 12:26 PM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I put $50 a week into a Robinhood account for three months ($600 total). I made negligible amounts or lost money on nearly everything until that goober Musk started pumping up Dogecoin, which I had bought, tbh, solely because it was something I could afford to own many of, instead of 0.03 of. We sold right before his SNL appearance and I got $3900. The trickiest challenge has been trying to convince my family and loved ones that I do not know anything or have any insight or skills; I just had fortuitous timing on something stupid. Like, seriously, this is not a thing that normally happens. I just rode a very stupid train at a very lucky moment. Whatever. It's our 2021 vacation budget.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:09 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:09 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
i also randomly rode the stupid doge coin and cashed out...but i put it back (minus the principal investment in doge) into robinhoob and into $amc
now i am riding another very stupid train but am somehow up $8k and it's all 'profit' so...weird times we live in. i think in theory the $amc money comes at the expense of hedge funds who are shorting the stock so that's nice at least?
posted by lazaruslong at 3:00 PM on May 30, 2021
now i am riding another very stupid train but am somehow up $8k and it's all 'profit' so...weird times we live in. i think in theory the $amc money comes at the expense of hedge funds who are shorting the stock so that's nice at least?
posted by lazaruslong at 3:00 PM on May 30, 2021
...this is continuing to be very interesting!
posted by lazaruslong at 6:40 AM on June 10, 2021
posted by lazaruslong at 6:40 AM on June 10, 2021
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posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:03 PM on May 14, 2021 [20 favorites]