My Daily Pills - On suffering, and not.
February 2, 2022 6:49 AM Subscribe
One author's experience with psychiatric medication as a tool to quell suffering.
"Suffering is big and suffering is satisfying. When it’s a chronic condition, it’s simply always there, a vast scratchy blanket, and it will swaddle you up forever if you want it to. It feels meaningful when you’re in it. You’re afraid to leave and find out it wasn’t. But if you do, you know the truth you were so afraid of — it was just a waste. You knew it then and you know it now. All the time I spent running from medication was time I could have spent reading books, writing, making friends, going on long walks, developing hobbies, loving other people, relishing the taste of things — even being genuinely sad, one of the many feelings major depression, for me at least, completely blunts. That is the world where meaning is."
A valuable reflection on suffering and the meaning of life in general. I expect I will be reading this essay again and again. Thank you.
posted by probably not that Karen Blair at 8:10 AM on February 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by probably not that Karen Blair at 8:10 AM on February 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised though that they were on medication first and in therapy after.
It depends on the person and their condition. For me, medication is highly effective and therapy (whether on or off medication) does very little. Depression has different causes, and different things work for different people.
posted by jb at 9:09 AM on February 2, 2022 [10 favorites]
It depends on the person and their condition. For me, medication is highly effective and therapy (whether on or off medication) does very little. Depression has different causes, and different things work for different people.
posted by jb at 9:09 AM on February 2, 2022 [10 favorites]
This was really moving, and I agree, valuable. And it really hit me on a personal level.
It took an awful lot of trying before I finally found the right combination of meds to treat my bipolar II. Awful is the right word, too. Some didn't work. Some had side effects I found more difficult than the depression I was trying to fight. And every time I tried some new pill or some new dose or some new combination I felt like a guinea pig or like a failure, but mostly - like the writer of this piece - like why was I even pursuing this? The suffering sucked but it was working for me. Maybe it was helping drive my creativity. What if I found a magic pill that worked but blunted the edges I liked best?
A couple of decades ago a close friend of mine confided in me that he was having a really hard time. He had started seeing a therapist and they had put him on meds. And as we kept talking he said he was glad he told me, but he almost didn't because he was afraid I would judge him for it. And I said "I'm from New York City - everyone goes to a therapist and takes meds." It was a funny joke at the time. But it does sometimes feel that way sometimes.
And I still feel like I have to sign in here anonymously, because well.
This week's Radiolab is a replay of the very first episode, which had a segment with someone undergoing electroconvulsive therapy for depression. It makes a really powerful companion piece to this. The stakes are incredibly high for the person undergoing the treatment - and may be even higher when he's faced with the choice of whether or not to continue them.
I don't think anyone should have to suffer if there's a way not to. But I wish we could find a way to make the "not to" less of a burden. Or at least help the people who society forces to suffer in silence off their "noble" pedestal.
I guess what I'm saying is that we need more people talking about this. Doing something to alleviate mental pain is normal. It just feels like it's exceptional because we feel like we're supposed to hide it.
posted by my left sock at 9:12 AM on February 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
It took an awful lot of trying before I finally found the right combination of meds to treat my bipolar II. Awful is the right word, too. Some didn't work. Some had side effects I found more difficult than the depression I was trying to fight. And every time I tried some new pill or some new dose or some new combination I felt like a guinea pig or like a failure, but mostly - like the writer of this piece - like why was I even pursuing this? The suffering sucked but it was working for me. Maybe it was helping drive my creativity. What if I found a magic pill that worked but blunted the edges I liked best?
A couple of decades ago a close friend of mine confided in me that he was having a really hard time. He had started seeing a therapist and they had put him on meds. And as we kept talking he said he was glad he told me, but he almost didn't because he was afraid I would judge him for it. And I said "I'm from New York City - everyone goes to a therapist and takes meds." It was a funny joke at the time. But it does sometimes feel that way sometimes.
And I still feel like I have to sign in here anonymously, because well.
This week's Radiolab is a replay of the very first episode, which had a segment with someone undergoing electroconvulsive therapy for depression. It makes a really powerful companion piece to this. The stakes are incredibly high for the person undergoing the treatment - and may be even higher when he's faced with the choice of whether or not to continue them.
I don't think anyone should have to suffer if there's a way not to. But I wish we could find a way to make the "not to" less of a burden. Or at least help the people who society forces to suffer in silence off their "noble" pedestal.
I guess what I'm saying is that we need more people talking about this. Doing something to alleviate mental pain is normal. It just feels like it's exceptional because we feel like we're supposed to hide it.
posted by my left sock at 9:12 AM on February 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
Thank you for sharing this.
I've been thinking a lot about these issues as I have just started taking an SSRI and am still figuring out if it's working for me.
I don't really understand the idea of valuing suffering, even in the sort of emo way the writer refers to. Not so long ago ago, I would have done almost anything to feel just a bit of relief.
So much of this seems to be a problem of not having the right words. I don't take the pills to be *happy *.
For many people, "anxiety" and "depression" seems to mean being quite worried about some specific topic or event, or being upset about it.
In which case the usual advice, to talk to a therapist, medidate, exercise, distract yourself, makes sense.
And those things all do help me. But I'm not anxious for a reason. Or depressed for a reason. It overwhelms me for no reason at all.
It's gradually become clear to me that what's happened to me is primarily physical.
An imbalance of hormones and brain chemistry caused, or exacerbated by menopause.
All of my dedication to meditation (20 minutes every day) exercise (I'm very fit!) diet (very healthy) having a pet (4 lovely rats) being in nature (every day) therapy (once a week) social contact (I've made 2 new close friends despite the challenges of the pandemic) and the list goes on, helped me survive, but still left me suffering anxiety so debilitating that it left my stomach lining stripped by all the constant adrenaline and cortisol constantly streaming through my system.
My GI specialist said the scope images showed damage as if I was abusing pain killers.
6 weeks after starting the SSRI I have experienced a profound change.
I'm not OK yet. Don't know if I will ever be. But I don't think placebo effect can be responsible for my stomach no longer aching every day for the first time in a year.
I am very angry that I didn't know how common this is for women my age. Why did neither my doctor or my therapist ever mention this possibility?
Yes, I definitely needed therapy and it helped me a lot. But the idea that mental health issues *necessarily * have their cause in thinking the wrong way, or can only truly be dealt with through therapy and that medication is some kind of easy way out, or side stepping a challenge... Fuck that.
posted by Zumbador at 9:18 AM on February 2, 2022 [23 favorites]
I've been thinking a lot about these issues as I have just started taking an SSRI and am still figuring out if it's working for me.
I don't really understand the idea of valuing suffering, even in the sort of emo way the writer refers to. Not so long ago ago, I would have done almost anything to feel just a bit of relief.
So much of this seems to be a problem of not having the right words. I don't take the pills to be *happy *.
For many people, "anxiety" and "depression" seems to mean being quite worried about some specific topic or event, or being upset about it.
In which case the usual advice, to talk to a therapist, medidate, exercise, distract yourself, makes sense.
And those things all do help me. But I'm not anxious for a reason. Or depressed for a reason. It overwhelms me for no reason at all.
It's gradually become clear to me that what's happened to me is primarily physical.
An imbalance of hormones and brain chemistry caused, or exacerbated by menopause.
All of my dedication to meditation (20 minutes every day) exercise (I'm very fit!) diet (very healthy) having a pet (4 lovely rats) being in nature (every day) therapy (once a week) social contact (I've made 2 new close friends despite the challenges of the pandemic) and the list goes on, helped me survive, but still left me suffering anxiety so debilitating that it left my stomach lining stripped by all the constant adrenaline and cortisol constantly streaming through my system.
My GI specialist said the scope images showed damage as if I was abusing pain killers.
6 weeks after starting the SSRI I have experienced a profound change.
I'm not OK yet. Don't know if I will ever be. But I don't think placebo effect can be responsible for my stomach no longer aching every day for the first time in a year.
I am very angry that I didn't know how common this is for women my age. Why did neither my doctor or my therapist ever mention this possibility?
Yes, I definitely needed therapy and it helped me a lot. But the idea that mental health issues *necessarily * have their cause in thinking the wrong way, or can only truly be dealt with through therapy and that medication is some kind of easy way out, or side stepping a challenge... Fuck that.
posted by Zumbador at 9:18 AM on February 2, 2022 [23 favorites]
The author repeats the horrible “it’s overprescribed” myth. It isn’t. To suggest that they are casts suspicion on the validity of every patient’s diagnosis and acts as an impediment to people seeking treatment in the first place.
posted by interogative mood at 9:30 AM on February 2, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:30 AM on February 2, 2022 [15 favorites]
Major depressive here. I was an extremely challenging patient to treat in my youth. Unresponsive to medications (although in the late 80s the available med options were much more limited), and the depression was severe enough that they were legitimately considering ECT despite the major contraindication of my young age (still a teen).
Ultimately, for me, the answer was developing cognitive and coping skills. But when the topic comes up, I am sure to emphasize that was the answer for me, and other people may find other answers. And sadly, sometimes, they may not.
I have seen many people find help from medicine, sometimes after a long struggle, and sometimes after repeated struggles where a particular regimen stops working. It’s a hard road, and I hope that anyone finding themselves on it finds an answer they can work with.
posted by notoriety public at 9:33 AM on February 2, 2022 [8 favorites]
Ultimately, for me, the answer was developing cognitive and coping skills. But when the topic comes up, I am sure to emphasize that was the answer for me, and other people may find other answers. And sadly, sometimes, they may not.
I have seen many people find help from medicine, sometimes after a long struggle, and sometimes after repeated struggles where a particular regimen stops working. It’s a hard road, and I hope that anyone finding themselves on it finds an answer they can work with.
posted by notoriety public at 9:33 AM on February 2, 2022 [8 favorites]
But here I am, a panda to the core, albeit a begrudging, cranky one. Every time I unscrew the bottle and swallow the pills I make the choice to be present in my own life even if it’s embarrassing. Whether or not I should need the pills, I do. Maybe there’s an alternate B.D. McClay who doesn’t need them because she bikes and eats spinach. She’s not me.
Oof. Excuse me, I need to go take the pills I've been procrastinating on before it's too late in the day.
posted by Lexica at 11:18 AM on February 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oof. Excuse me, I need to go take the pills I've been procrastinating on before it's too late in the day.
posted by Lexica at 11:18 AM on February 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
The author repeats the horrible “it’s overprescribed” myth. It isn’t.
"Frequently misprescribed" might be a better way to put it. Lots of patients benefit from these medications, and some people who would benefit from them aren't getting them, but many people are prescribed psych drugs for non-psychiatric medical conditions, or for mild, short-term mental illness, or for stressful life situations that would be better addressed by professionals and agencies who don’t work in the mental health sector at all.
And, of course, even patients who are placed on the right medication can find the side effects too much to deal with.
posted by cinchona at 12:00 PM on February 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Frequently misprescribed" might be a better way to put it. Lots of patients benefit from these medications, and some people who would benefit from them aren't getting them, but many people are prescribed psych drugs for non-psychiatric medical conditions, or for mild, short-term mental illness, or for stressful life situations that would be better addressed by professionals and agencies who don’t work in the mental health sector at all.
And, of course, even patients who are placed on the right medication can find the side effects too much to deal with.
posted by cinchona at 12:00 PM on February 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
I love the panda analogy. I am a grumpy panda, with my Prozac bamboo.
posted by Braeburn at 1:38 PM on February 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Braeburn at 1:38 PM on February 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
Is suffering valuable? Guess that depends on what you can make of it. Some people write essays and get paid for it, others write poetry, create art, etc.
In my case of ongoing depression, it hasn’t been particularly valuable. The only thing I’ve gotten from it is the gnawing sense that, one day, my brain will decide it’s had enough and it’s time to check out. My biggest worry is that one day, it won’t and won’t that be fun, because I’ve no resources if it doesn’t.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 4:57 PM on February 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
In my case of ongoing depression, it hasn’t been particularly valuable. The only thing I’ve gotten from it is the gnawing sense that, one day, my brain will decide it’s had enough and it’s time to check out. My biggest worry is that one day, it won’t and won’t that be fun, because I’ve no resources if it doesn’t.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 4:57 PM on February 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
but many people are prescribed psych drugs for non-psychiatric medical conditions, or for mild, short-term mental illness, or for stressful life situations that would be better addressed by professionals and agencies who don’t work in the mental health sector at all.
People suffering from short term and mild mental illness can benefit from medication, just as people with short term physical illnesses benefit from medication. Why should people have to suffer or self medicate with alcohol or illegal drugs?
What evidence do you have that people are being prescribed these medicines for non-psychiatric medical conditions? What conditions, what circumstances?
Someone with a diagnosis of anxiety won’t be able to use the other services you think would better help them until the anxiety is under control with the help of medication. It isn’t either or and in most cases it has to be both.
Your statement comes across as implying there is something wrong or improper with getting these medicines and mental health treatment.
posted by interogative mood at 6:23 PM on February 2, 2022 [10 favorites]
People suffering from short term and mild mental illness can benefit from medication, just as people with short term physical illnesses benefit from medication. Why should people have to suffer or self medicate with alcohol or illegal drugs?
What evidence do you have that people are being prescribed these medicines for non-psychiatric medical conditions? What conditions, what circumstances?
Someone with a diagnosis of anxiety won’t be able to use the other services you think would better help them until the anxiety is under control with the help of medication. It isn’t either or and in most cases it has to be both.
Your statement comes across as implying there is something wrong or improper with getting these medicines and mental health treatment.
posted by interogative mood at 6:23 PM on February 2, 2022 [10 favorites]
the idea that mental health issues *necessarily * have their cause in thinking the wrong way
reflects a profound and too often apparently wilful ignorance about what a human being actually is.
posted by flabdablet at 6:29 PM on February 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
reflects a profound and too often apparently wilful ignorance about what a human being actually is.
posted by flabdablet at 6:29 PM on February 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
“The core assumption behind SSRI use is the assumption that your suffering is meaningless and you’d be better off without it.… It is a crime to consider suffering as an error to be corrected rather than as a signal to be heeded.”The core assumption behind your tweet is that your sanctimonious, condescending, under-informed, ill-considered and yet safely conventional opinion is one worth broadcasting to the world.
Consider this response as a signal to be heeded, the contents of which identify an error to be corrected.
posted by flabdablet at 6:37 PM on February 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
People suffering from short term and mild mental illness can benefit from medication, just as people with short term physical illnesses benefit from medication. Why should people have to suffer or self medicate with alcohol or illegal drugs?
What evidence do you have that people are being prescribed these medicines for non-psychiatric medical conditions? What conditions, what circumstances?
Look, I am speaking as someone who has personally received psych treatment. I am someone who knows firsthand how casually many physicians will issue psych diagnoses and prescribe antidepressants/antipsychotics/ benzodiazepines when patients come to them with symptoms that aren’t answered by a basic blood test or two.
Psych drugs have never done anything for me other than to increase my suffering, multiply my physical complaints, and reduce my already low functioning. It makes me ill that so many people seem to believe that psych professionals are basically infallible, or that the only problems with psych services are “lack of access” and an insufficiency of “diverse” psych providers.
If people who have mild mental illnesses, or who are “normal,” seek out pharmaceutical treatments and are helped, that’s great. But I’m sick of psych evangelism.
posted by cinchona at 7:38 PM on February 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
What evidence do you have that people are being prescribed these medicines for non-psychiatric medical conditions? What conditions, what circumstances?
Look, I am speaking as someone who has personally received psych treatment. I am someone who knows firsthand how casually many physicians will issue psych diagnoses and prescribe antidepressants/antipsychotics/ benzodiazepines when patients come to them with symptoms that aren’t answered by a basic blood test or two.
Psych drugs have never done anything for me other than to increase my suffering, multiply my physical complaints, and reduce my already low functioning. It makes me ill that so many people seem to believe that psych professionals are basically infallible, or that the only problems with psych services are “lack of access” and an insufficiency of “diverse” psych providers.
If people who have mild mental illnesses, or who are “normal,” seek out pharmaceutical treatments and are helped, that’s great. But I’m sick of psych evangelism.
posted by cinchona at 7:38 PM on February 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
> Why should people have to suffer or self medicate with alcohol or illegal drugs?
This is ultimately why I decided to start my meds... I realized that drinking and smoking weed were not actually conducive to being functional, to me writing good code. shrug
This might not be that helpful to people who've experienced depression themselves, because its different for different people, but when I was young and going through the first few cycles of (what I've now realized was a) recurring depressive time period, reading Allie Brosh describe her experience in adventures in depression and adventures in depression part 2 was helpful to me.
Maybe I'm just biased towards thinking that these 2013 blog posts are more authentic than sensationalist news media.
One thing I loved was Allie straight up saying: "Some people have a legitimate reason to feel depressed, but not me. I just woke up one day feeling sad and helpless for absolutely no reason."
I really like her saying that because it goes against the idea that depression needs to be "caused" by something.
That people should be able to answer "But why are you depressed?" / "What's making you depressed?" by citing life experiences.
Uh, anyway, sorry for ranting, this has about nothing to do with medication so I'm probably a little off topic.
posted by real-fern at 7:52 PM on February 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is ultimately why I decided to start my meds... I realized that drinking and smoking weed were not actually conducive to being functional, to me writing good code. shrug
This might not be that helpful to people who've experienced depression themselves, because its different for different people, but when I was young and going through the first few cycles of (what I've now realized was a) recurring depressive time period, reading Allie Brosh describe her experience in adventures in depression and adventures in depression part 2 was helpful to me.
Maybe I'm just biased towards thinking that these 2013 blog posts are more authentic than sensationalist news media.
One thing I loved was Allie straight up saying: "Some people have a legitimate reason to feel depressed, but not me. I just woke up one day feeling sad and helpless for absolutely no reason."
I really like her saying that because it goes against the idea that depression needs to be "caused" by something.
That people should be able to answer "But why are you depressed?" / "What's making you depressed?" by citing life experiences.
Uh, anyway, sorry for ranting, this has about nothing to do with medication so I'm probably a little off topic.
posted by real-fern at 7:52 PM on February 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
I really like her saying that because it goes against the idea that depression needs to be "caused" by something.
Very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad.
posted by flabdablet at 8:07 PM on February 2, 2022
Very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad.
posted by flabdablet at 8:07 PM on February 2, 2022
Man I feel that vibe. Super depressed since I was a teen, perhaps for some good reasons, but honestly I'm just as depressed, irritable, and anxiety-ridden when my life is going great as when it's going to he'll in a handbasket. Meds work...OK, trying therapy because Mr Objects insisted, but it just doesn't do anything for me. My brain is broken, or the settings got tuned wrong, whatever. When things are fan-freaking-tastic and you still want to crawl into bed and never emerge again, the only thing left to do is actually try and tweak your brain chemistry.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 9:24 PM on February 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by sharp pointy objects at 9:24 PM on February 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Corrected link for depression part 2 which is, it seems to me, where the meat of the thing is.
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 PM on February 2, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 PM on February 2, 2022
But I’m sick of psych evangelism.
cinchona I hope my comment above did not come across like that. I'm sorry if it did. What you describe, your own experience, sounds very tough.
This topic has really been bugging me. Is there something inherently valuable about suffering, to the point where attempting to escape suffering can be seen as a kind of cowardice, or dereliction of duty? Especially for a creative person?
It's certainly true that the tough things I've gone through have (sometimes) made me more empathetic and compassionate. And it's definitely informed my own writing. And as a reader, there is that amazing sense of being *seen* that you can get from reading something by somebody who has shared your experience.
But surely, we have the capacity to create excellent art, (and other useful things), and to be kind and compassionate without necessarily having to go through that suffering ourselves? Isn't that one of the amazing things about creative work, whether books, movies, paintings, dance, that they give us a way to live other people's experience, to some extent, and to broaden our understanding of what it is to be somebody else?
It would be really sad if we can only understand other people if we actually live through the same experiences. Is there no role for imagination and empathy?
Am I straying from my point? Suffering is part of life. Sometimes you can learn something from the experience. Sometimes you have to accept it, and try to find a silver lining just to get through the day. But valuing suffering to the point where you guilt people for wanting to avoid it, can be a way to entrench oppression and resist change.
The idea that people might wish, legitimately, to avoid the pain and trauma of childbirth, or the frustration of child-raising. Or manual labour. Or low paid drudge work. The worst example I've seen is when people condemn euthanasia because it robs the dying of the suffering that will, apparently, guarantee them a place in heaven.
I'm just tying myself in knots, here, as I know that I have definitely become a kinder person than I used to be, because of what I'm going through. But I hate the idea that there's something noble in suffering, when there is a way to avoid it, or relieve it.
posted by Zumbador at 1:58 AM on February 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
cinchona I hope my comment above did not come across like that. I'm sorry if it did. What you describe, your own experience, sounds very tough.
This topic has really been bugging me. Is there something inherently valuable about suffering, to the point where attempting to escape suffering can be seen as a kind of cowardice, or dereliction of duty? Especially for a creative person?
It's certainly true that the tough things I've gone through have (sometimes) made me more empathetic and compassionate. And it's definitely informed my own writing. And as a reader, there is that amazing sense of being *seen* that you can get from reading something by somebody who has shared your experience.
But surely, we have the capacity to create excellent art, (and other useful things), and to be kind and compassionate without necessarily having to go through that suffering ourselves? Isn't that one of the amazing things about creative work, whether books, movies, paintings, dance, that they give us a way to live other people's experience, to some extent, and to broaden our understanding of what it is to be somebody else?
It would be really sad if we can only understand other people if we actually live through the same experiences. Is there no role for imagination and empathy?
Am I straying from my point? Suffering is part of life. Sometimes you can learn something from the experience. Sometimes you have to accept it, and try to find a silver lining just to get through the day. But valuing suffering to the point where you guilt people for wanting to avoid it, can be a way to entrench oppression and resist change.
The idea that people might wish, legitimately, to avoid the pain and trauma of childbirth, or the frustration of child-raising. Or manual labour. Or low paid drudge work. The worst example I've seen is when people condemn euthanasia because it robs the dying of the suffering that will, apparently, guarantee them a place in heaven.
I'm just tying myself in knots, here, as I know that I have definitely become a kinder person than I used to be, because of what I'm going through. But I hate the idea that there's something noble in suffering, when there is a way to avoid it, or relieve it.
posted by Zumbador at 1:58 AM on February 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Is there something inherently valuable about suffering, to the point where attempting to escape suffering can be seen as a kind of cowardice, or dereliction of duty?
No.
The notion that there is has always been the main driver of the visceral repugnance that's kept me safe from the clutches of Christianity for as long as I've been aware of its central premise.
Anybody who seriously takes the view that suffering, especially protracted and apparently unavoidable suffering, is in any way desirable is somebody I have a lot of trouble crediting with having experienced actual suffering. Pain isn't suffering if you're a masochist.
I don't think suffering is ennobling, I think it's a fucking nuisance. It's what we're better off having to spend the smallest possible proportion of our lives experiencing by definition. The only valuable lessons that suffering has to offer come not from the suffering itself, but from the cessations of suffering that those of us it doesn't actually kill will usually eventually experience.
Any attempt to explain suffering that doesn't actually alleviate or at least mitigate it is a useless Just So story to my way of thinking. And as Allie Brosh has so eloquently pointed out, it's generally far kinder to keep those to oneself.
valuing suffering to the point where you guilt people for wanting to avoid it, can be a way to entrench oppression and resist change
Wholehearted agreement.
posted by flabdablet at 3:16 AM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
No.
The notion that there is has always been the main driver of the visceral repugnance that's kept me safe from the clutches of Christianity for as long as I've been aware of its central premise.
Anybody who seriously takes the view that suffering, especially protracted and apparently unavoidable suffering, is in any way desirable is somebody I have a lot of trouble crediting with having experienced actual suffering. Pain isn't suffering if you're a masochist.
I don't think suffering is ennobling, I think it's a fucking nuisance. It's what we're better off having to spend the smallest possible proportion of our lives experiencing by definition. The only valuable lessons that suffering has to offer come not from the suffering itself, but from the cessations of suffering that those of us it doesn't actually kill will usually eventually experience.
Any attempt to explain suffering that doesn't actually alleviate or at least mitigate it is a useless Just So story to my way of thinking. And as Allie Brosh has so eloquently pointed out, it's generally far kinder to keep those to oneself.
valuing suffering to the point where you guilt people for wanting to avoid it, can be a way to entrench oppression and resist change
Wholehearted agreement.
posted by flabdablet at 3:16 AM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
The worst example I've seen is when people condemn euthanasia because it robs the dying of the suffering that will, apparently, guarantee them a place in heaven.
Anybody who chooses to remain attached to the delusion that suffering is required to gain a place in heaven is perfectly welcome to suffer as much as they want. But if they're going to insist that others must therefore suffer as much as and in such ways as they deem necessary, they're perfectly welcome to fuck off into the Sun.
Over the years I have formulated a large range of plans for dying in ways that minimize my own suffering and that of those I love, and I remain fairly confident that I will always remain able to slip at least one of these past all of those sanctimonious fuckers.
posted by flabdablet at 3:24 AM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Anybody who chooses to remain attached to the delusion that suffering is required to gain a place in heaven is perfectly welcome to suffer as much as they want. But if they're going to insist that others must therefore suffer as much as and in such ways as they deem necessary, they're perfectly welcome to fuck off into the Sun.
Over the years I have formulated a large range of plans for dying in ways that minimize my own suffering and that of those I love, and I remain fairly confident that I will always remain able to slip at least one of these past all of those sanctimonious fuckers.
posted by flabdablet at 3:24 AM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Clarification: all such plans are for my own death only; furthermore, this is an achievement to which I intend to apply all of my considerable powers of procrastination.
I hope and trust that the amount of contemplation I've devoted to it over the years will end up rendering the process of dying an interesting and enjoyable experience for me, but I also think it's a good idea to keep the items on one's bucket list in an appropriate order, and I have no intention of allowing this one to get in the way of the others if at all avoidable.
posted by flabdablet at 3:34 AM on February 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
I hope and trust that the amount of contemplation I've devoted to it over the years will end up rendering the process of dying an interesting and enjoyable experience for me, but I also think it's a good idea to keep the items on one's bucket list in an appropriate order, and I have no intention of allowing this one to get in the way of the others if at all avoidable.
posted by flabdablet at 3:34 AM on February 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
cinchona I hope my comment above did not come across like that. I'm sorry if it did.
Don't worry about it. I didn’t take issue with anything in your post. What bothers me is when people are dismissive of the fact that many patients have had really detrimental experiences with psychiatric drugs, and with mental healthcare, and healthcare in general.
In your post, you talk about how depressed people, and anxious people, are commonly told that they could cure themselves if they would do things like “just go for a walk” or “just take some vitamins” or “just be more social.” Lots of "psych evangelists" understand completely how unhelpful “advice” like this is but will tell people that they should “just take meds” or “just go to therapy.” They condemn the fact that people with mental health issues are often dissuaded from seeking out mental health treatment on the basis that their problems are “only in their heads,” and can be overcome with their own “willpower,” but see no contradiction in telling any psych patient who hasn’t benefitted from psych treatments that they “have to want it to work” and that they’re only getting back what they put in.
Yeah, I’m pretty…bitter right now, but thank you for acknowledging my experience. I’m glad that you’ve had a positive response to medication, and I hope that life continues to improve for you.
posted by cinchona at 4:00 AM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Don't worry about it. I didn’t take issue with anything in your post. What bothers me is when people are dismissive of the fact that many patients have had really detrimental experiences with psychiatric drugs, and with mental healthcare, and healthcare in general.
In your post, you talk about how depressed people, and anxious people, are commonly told that they could cure themselves if they would do things like “just go for a walk” or “just take some vitamins” or “just be more social.” Lots of "psych evangelists" understand completely how unhelpful “advice” like this is but will tell people that they should “just take meds” or “just go to therapy.” They condemn the fact that people with mental health issues are often dissuaded from seeking out mental health treatment on the basis that their problems are “only in their heads,” and can be overcome with their own “willpower,” but see no contradiction in telling any psych patient who hasn’t benefitted from psych treatments that they “have to want it to work” and that they’re only getting back what they put in.
Yeah, I’m pretty…bitter right now, but thank you for acknowledging my experience. I’m glad that you’ve had a positive response to medication, and I hope that life continues to improve for you.
posted by cinchona at 4:00 AM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’m pretty…bitter right now
What you're talking about puts me in mind of the well-credentialled Melbourne chronic fatigue specialist upon whom I'd pinned the hope of months and arranged a 600km round trip to see.
Having dragged my aching carcass into the city to be right on time for the appointment, it turned out that the Great Man was far too busy and important to be there himself and had fobbed me off with a clipboard-wielding registrar for an initial fifteen minute interview. After answering an odd assortment of what felt like completely irrelevant questions, I was then left to stew for another fifteen.
Eventually the Exalted One swept in, took one look at me, declared that my totally debilitating fatigue was either a result of my obesity or (and I'm quoting directly here, not even paraphrasing) "excessive grieving for the death of your mother". This on the basis of the registrar having said to me, on finding out that Mum had died two years prior, that she was sorry to hear that and that I must miss her, and my having answered that yes, I did. And he gave me a pamphlet about bariatric surgery and sent me on my way.
Bitter doesn't even begin to describe it. Came to you for help, you pompous ass, not to have you grind me down even harder and then charge me for the privilege.
posted by flabdablet at 4:37 AM on February 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
What you're talking about puts me in mind of the well-credentialled Melbourne chronic fatigue specialist upon whom I'd pinned the hope of months and arranged a 600km round trip to see.
Having dragged my aching carcass into the city to be right on time for the appointment, it turned out that the Great Man was far too busy and important to be there himself and had fobbed me off with a clipboard-wielding registrar for an initial fifteen minute interview. After answering an odd assortment of what felt like completely irrelevant questions, I was then left to stew for another fifteen.
Eventually the Exalted One swept in, took one look at me, declared that my totally debilitating fatigue was either a result of my obesity or (and I'm quoting directly here, not even paraphrasing) "excessive grieving for the death of your mother". This on the basis of the registrar having said to me, on finding out that Mum had died two years prior, that she was sorry to hear that and that I must miss her, and my having answered that yes, I did. And he gave me a pamphlet about bariatric surgery and sent me on my way.
Bitter doesn't even begin to describe it. Came to you for help, you pompous ass, not to have you grind me down even harder and then charge me for the privilege.
posted by flabdablet at 4:37 AM on February 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
By the way, the guy who eventually did help me with my chronic fatigue was not even a doctor. He worked checkout at one of our local supermarkets, and I was fixing his home computer, and he told me I should try eating chilis. And I thought, those are cheap and will probably do no harm. So I did, and now I don't have chronic fatigue any more. But I'm still fat and I still miss my mother, so fuck you very much, Doctor Useless. People like you are a blight on the medical profession.
posted by flabdablet at 4:45 AM on February 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 4:45 AM on February 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was raised Catholic. I still struggle with a bunch of internalized stuff around suffering. It is deserved, it is good, it is noble, original sin and eve and the serpent and all that.
And every time I finally do something about it, I get so angry about all the fucking waste. Like it took me 2 years to go to a doctor for a painful foot condition, and it was fixed in a 15 minute outpatient procedure. While I had it I, in some subconscious confused way, felt embarrassed and felt that I deserved it, and somehow being in constant pain gave a stupid sense of superiority. It took me 3 years to deal with another painful condition that was ruling my schedule and my social life. It took a minor surgery to fix, and I realized I had not been fully present in the here and now for three years because of the pain. You get the idea.
Until recently I figured out that I was doing the same with mental suffering. I've had bad experiences before with psych care and psych drugs, particularly in the US
Here in Mexico I am lucky enough that I can afford to set up same week appointments with specialists, and even when I pay 100% out of pocket so I don't have to wait weeks for insurance to authorize the visit, it is between $20 and $50 USD.
I did a lot of doctor shopping, if you want to call it that. On the first consultation I would ask about their approach to mental health, I would ask them to explain their diagnostic procedures, to explain to me how statistics applies to mental health, ask them to explain how medications work at a level we could both understand, etc... Oh my, so many doctors did not appreciate this, but I did learn a lot.
I am a pain in the ass patient, but I will vetting a doctor that I will trust with my mind should not be taken more lightly than vetting a software engineer that is going to build me a web app.
I found someone I trust. I got a diagnosis that makes sense. I am taking medication that of course is not making me happy, that is not the idea, but is allowing me to feel like myself again, to be more present, to not be suffering 24/7.
Before you give up, it took me over 10 doctors over 20 years to finally find something that is working.
posted by Dr. Curare at 9:05 AM on February 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
And every time I finally do something about it, I get so angry about all the fucking waste. Like it took me 2 years to go to a doctor for a painful foot condition, and it was fixed in a 15 minute outpatient procedure. While I had it I, in some subconscious confused way, felt embarrassed and felt that I deserved it, and somehow being in constant pain gave a stupid sense of superiority. It took me 3 years to deal with another painful condition that was ruling my schedule and my social life. It took a minor surgery to fix, and I realized I had not been fully present in the here and now for three years because of the pain. You get the idea.
Until recently I figured out that I was doing the same with mental suffering. I've had bad experiences before with psych care and psych drugs, particularly in the US
Here in Mexico I am lucky enough that I can afford to set up same week appointments with specialists, and even when I pay 100% out of pocket so I don't have to wait weeks for insurance to authorize the visit, it is between $20 and $50 USD.
I did a lot of doctor shopping, if you want to call it that. On the first consultation I would ask about their approach to mental health, I would ask them to explain their diagnostic procedures, to explain to me how statistics applies to mental health, ask them to explain how medications work at a level we could both understand, etc... Oh my, so many doctors did not appreciate this, but I did learn a lot.
I am a pain in the ass patient, but I will vetting a doctor that I will trust with my mind should not be taken more lightly than vetting a software engineer that is going to build me a web app.
I found someone I trust. I got a diagnosis that makes sense. I am taking medication that of course is not making me happy, that is not the idea, but is allowing me to feel like myself again, to be more present, to not be suffering 24/7.
Before you give up, it took me over 10 doctors over 20 years to finally find something that is working.
posted by Dr. Curare at 9:05 AM on February 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
"This topic has really been bugging me. Is there something inherently valuable about suffering..."
My sister has had to contend with many of her fellow Christians who fetishize the pain and disability of our shared genetic illness. Thinking about this kind of sanctimonious pity makes me angry beyond words. I've not really had that attitude directed toward me, fortunately.
The thing is, my mental illness — major depression is its main feature — has always been more immiserating and disabling to me than the skeletal dysplasia has been. And the skeletal dysplasia is pretty bad: these days, I'm in constant pain in all my joints and I'm minimally ambulatory. The idea that my physical pain and disability is ennobling and/or "useful" is utterly absurd to me — not worth taking seriously for even an instant. Yet, somehow, this mental illness I also suffer from — this depression — is often seen in our culture as something I'm possibly responsible for and something I'm supposed to "learn from". It's hindered my life so comprehensively that these notions are beyond insulting, they're actively harmful.
Speaking as someone with a very rare illness, I understand better than most people do the limits of modern medicine. And this is so much more true with regard to mental illness and psychiatric medications. These medications are not a panacea. I'm not going to sing their unqualified praises.
But mental pain is pain — I'm well-aquainted with pain in many of its forms — and mental disability is disability. There is no sense in which such suffering is beneficial or useful, individually or socially. If we're largely ignorant of the brain dysfunctions at the heart of mental illnesses, then we need to learn more. If the psychiatric therapies available (in all forms, pharmaceutical and otherwise) are inadequate, then we need better therapies. If there are social dysfunctions at the root of many mental illnesses (and let's be clear: there are social dysfunctions at the root of many physical illnesses, in some sense or another), then we need to change society.
Minimizing the suffering, waving it away as "character building", or blaming it on those who suffer is completely fucking unacceptable. It's not just misguided or ignorant; it's cruel. It's inhumane. It's ugly.
It's absolutely crucial that we are clear on the distinction between being cognizant of the relative crudity of contemporary psychiatric pharmaceuticals and of the social stigma against them. The former is informed realism. The latter is mostly the product of the same sort of ignorant moralizing that advocated against surgical anesthesia on the basis of the "virtue" of suffering and "naturalism" of pain.
If I never see another film or television character "bravely" pouring their psychiatric medicine down a drain, it will still be too soon. This is a profoundly harmful cultural meme, akin to anti-vaxism and the like.
Let's use antibiotics as an example. Most people don't understand them or even what pathogens they target. They are over-prescribed — often very inappropriately and as placebos to insistent patients— and as a result, they are increasingly less effective because pathogens are inevitably evolving resistance as a response to this intense selective pressure.
Should we then make a virtue of forgoing antibiotics? Should we be skeptical of antibiotics for their failures, their limits, their misuse? If we eschew them, would it be a net positive? Of course it wouldn't. Not even close. Antibiotics still save millions of lives every year that otherwise would be lost. The solution to the growing crisis of antibiotic-resistant pathogens is to learn more about the evolution of resistance, refine the guidelines of antibiotic use, learn more about the molecular biology of antibiotics, and discover (and/or design) more and better antibiotics. Not to mention learning more about pathogenic illnesses and how to prevent and contain them... as well as other ways to treat them. Deciding that "antibiotics are bad" is the knee-jerk reaction of someone who confuses ignorance with skepticism and callous recklessness for caution.
(Yes, I agree that this seems like hyperbole because there pretty much isn't such sentiment against antibiotics at present. But just wait as the antibiotic crisis worsens and get back to me.)
My larger point here is that suffering is not virtuous and we need to be wary of this pernicious and ancient bias and how it often arises in the form of seemingly-reasonable arguments. An underlying "just world" fallacy is very often used as an excuse for inaction and callousness. A sense of helplessness leads to a social fatalism that attempts to define the suffering into non-existence... often alongside and complementary with snake-oil "remedies". This is common with poorly-understood illnesses — nowhere is this more true than in mental health.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:41 PM on February 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
My sister has had to contend with many of her fellow Christians who fetishize the pain and disability of our shared genetic illness. Thinking about this kind of sanctimonious pity makes me angry beyond words. I've not really had that attitude directed toward me, fortunately.
The thing is, my mental illness — major depression is its main feature — has always been more immiserating and disabling to me than the skeletal dysplasia has been. And the skeletal dysplasia is pretty bad: these days, I'm in constant pain in all my joints and I'm minimally ambulatory. The idea that my physical pain and disability is ennobling and/or "useful" is utterly absurd to me — not worth taking seriously for even an instant. Yet, somehow, this mental illness I also suffer from — this depression — is often seen in our culture as something I'm possibly responsible for and something I'm supposed to "learn from". It's hindered my life so comprehensively that these notions are beyond insulting, they're actively harmful.
Speaking as someone with a very rare illness, I understand better than most people do the limits of modern medicine. And this is so much more true with regard to mental illness and psychiatric medications. These medications are not a panacea. I'm not going to sing their unqualified praises.
But mental pain is pain — I'm well-aquainted with pain in many of its forms — and mental disability is disability. There is no sense in which such suffering is beneficial or useful, individually or socially. If we're largely ignorant of the brain dysfunctions at the heart of mental illnesses, then we need to learn more. If the psychiatric therapies available (in all forms, pharmaceutical and otherwise) are inadequate, then we need better therapies. If there are social dysfunctions at the root of many mental illnesses (and let's be clear: there are social dysfunctions at the root of many physical illnesses, in some sense or another), then we need to change society.
Minimizing the suffering, waving it away as "character building", or blaming it on those who suffer is completely fucking unacceptable. It's not just misguided or ignorant; it's cruel. It's inhumane. It's ugly.
It's absolutely crucial that we are clear on the distinction between being cognizant of the relative crudity of contemporary psychiatric pharmaceuticals and of the social stigma against them. The former is informed realism. The latter is mostly the product of the same sort of ignorant moralizing that advocated against surgical anesthesia on the basis of the "virtue" of suffering and "naturalism" of pain.
If I never see another film or television character "bravely" pouring their psychiatric medicine down a drain, it will still be too soon. This is a profoundly harmful cultural meme, akin to anti-vaxism and the like.
Let's use antibiotics as an example. Most people don't understand them or even what pathogens they target. They are over-prescribed — often very inappropriately and as placebos to insistent patients— and as a result, they are increasingly less effective because pathogens are inevitably evolving resistance as a response to this intense selective pressure.
Should we then make a virtue of forgoing antibiotics? Should we be skeptical of antibiotics for their failures, their limits, their misuse? If we eschew them, would it be a net positive? Of course it wouldn't. Not even close. Antibiotics still save millions of lives every year that otherwise would be lost. The solution to the growing crisis of antibiotic-resistant pathogens is to learn more about the evolution of resistance, refine the guidelines of antibiotic use, learn more about the molecular biology of antibiotics, and discover (and/or design) more and better antibiotics. Not to mention learning more about pathogenic illnesses and how to prevent and contain them... as well as other ways to treat them. Deciding that "antibiotics are bad" is the knee-jerk reaction of someone who confuses ignorance with skepticism and callous recklessness for caution.
(Yes, I agree that this seems like hyperbole because there pretty much isn't such sentiment against antibiotics at present. But just wait as the antibiotic crisis worsens and get back to me.)
My larger point here is that suffering is not virtuous and we need to be wary of this pernicious and ancient bias and how it often arises in the form of seemingly-reasonable arguments. An underlying "just world" fallacy is very often used as an excuse for inaction and callousness. A sense of helplessness leads to a social fatalism that attempts to define the suffering into non-existence... often alongside and complementary with snake-oil "remedies". This is common with poorly-understood illnesses — nowhere is this more true than in mental health.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:41 PM on February 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
If I never see another film or television character "bravely" pouring their psychiatric medicine down a drain, it will still be too soon.
It would be nice to see more portrayals of the horrible withdrawal symptoms that can result from suddenly stopping psych medication.
posted by cinchona at 3:15 PM on February 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
It would be nice to see more portrayals of the horrible withdrawal symptoms that can result from suddenly stopping psych medication.
posted by cinchona at 3:15 PM on February 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
While I had it I, in some subconscious confused way, felt embarrassed and felt that I deserved it, and somehow being in constant pain gave a stupid sense of superiority.
Just World is a delusion that's almost impossible to avoid acquiring as a kid, especially in religious environments, and shovelling it out and rooting out all the poisonous internal weeds it fertilizes is a lifelong chore.
That particular delusion is, it seems to me, responsible for more ongoing misery than any other. Watching people cultivate it by spreading "there's a reason for everything" and "God moves in mysterious ways" horseshit is straight-up infuriating.
There is one reason for suffering, and it is this: that the sufferer has not yet found a way to make it stop and keep on breathing.
There is no virtue in suffering, in and of itself. There exist virtuous ways to cope with suffering, as various religious and philosophical thinkers over the aeons have helpfully pointed out, but these are virtuous exactly because they render suffering less difficult to bear, thereby actually reducing it. And it has to be said that dramatic entreaties to a misconceived God to explain why one has been forsaken by Him are unlikely to be counted among them.
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 PM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Just World is a delusion that's almost impossible to avoid acquiring as a kid, especially in religious environments, and shovelling it out and rooting out all the poisonous internal weeds it fertilizes is a lifelong chore.
That particular delusion is, it seems to me, responsible for more ongoing misery than any other. Watching people cultivate it by spreading "there's a reason for everything" and "God moves in mysterious ways" horseshit is straight-up infuriating.
There is one reason for suffering, and it is this: that the sufferer has not yet found a way to make it stop and keep on breathing.
There is no virtue in suffering, in and of itself. There exist virtuous ways to cope with suffering, as various religious and philosophical thinkers over the aeons have helpfully pointed out, but these are virtuous exactly because they render suffering less difficult to bear, thereby actually reducing it. And it has to be said that dramatic entreaties to a misconceived God to explain why one has been forsaken by Him are unlikely to be counted among them.
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 PM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
The useful lessons on offer from the Christian tradition are those that advocate for kindness and compassion and justice and egalitarianism. The centrality of allegedly redemptive suffering to that tradition, though, is its defining point of difference and it's that centrality that makes it a tradition in dire need of root and branch reform. Get that man off that cross, stat.
posted by flabdablet at 10:17 PM on February 3, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 10:17 PM on February 3, 2022
It is unfortunate that your experience with medication and mental health services hasn’t been positive, cinchona. My own experience and many people I know has been to have to fight to get medications and other treatments we needed.
posted by interogative mood at 10:29 PM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:29 PM on February 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
He didn't die for our sins; he died as an object lesson to an empire's subjugated populace on the perils of opposing entrenched power. That opposition was his valuable contribution, not the enforced ending of it, and to venerate the latter at the expense of the former is a sickening perversion of everything good that Christ ever stood for.
posted by flabdablet at 10:33 PM on February 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 10:33 PM on February 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Remember that book Zealot, that our friends in the culture wars tried to make a big scandal of, since the author is an Iranian scholar of Christianity? It said that wandering around Galilee proclaiming the return of the Kingdom of David was more than enough to get you crucified, because who isn't going to be ruling after that happens? The Romans is who!
posted by thelonius at 6:48 AM on February 4, 2022
posted by thelonius at 6:48 AM on February 4, 2022
Thanks flabdablet, I had not made the connection with the useful lessons from Christianity and other religions, but elsewhere in the site I have talked about how working towards kindness and compassion, by meditating and observing and actively feeling empathy, has been a coping mechanism for me. I am at the level of small creatures now, working towards humanity as a whole.
I am at the Francis of Assisi preaching to the birds stage I guess.
posted by Dr. Curare at 8:50 AM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am at the Francis of Assisi preaching to the birds stage I guess.
posted by Dr. Curare at 8:50 AM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well I just went and cuddled the fish and now it acting all weird. But the dubia roaches are happy cuddling in my gently closed hand.
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:14 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr. Curare at 11:14 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Parry Gripp on fish
Jonathan Richman on insects
posted by flabdablet at 11:33 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Jonathan Richman on insects
posted by flabdablet at 11:33 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
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I'm surprised though that they were on medication first and in therapy after. My therapist referred me to my psych. I think my therapist helped me understand myself and my circumstances so much better, and I think that's what's brought me lasting changes.
At the height of it I was taking 5 pills a day. It was not pleasent.
posted by real-fern at 7:42 AM on February 2, 2022 [2 favorites]