How to lose thousands on Amazon
March 14, 2022 3:28 AM Subscribe
The new get rich quick scam: passive income on Amazon. [SL Atlantic] Scams, the gift that keeps on grifting!
From the article: “ Within six months, McDowell and Bjork had spent nearly $40,000, with almost nothing to show for it. So they auctioned off what inventory they could, paid Amazon to destroy the rest, and got out of the business. “It’s not a passive income; [it’s] a ton of work,” McDowell told me. “We lost all our savings—everything we had.””
“A Maryland woman, Allyson Pippin, who sells slime, said she was about ready to scrap her product and start all over.”
posted by oulipian at 4:14 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by oulipian at 4:14 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
The couple had hoped to strike it rich—or at least quit their day jobs—buying goods from China and reselling them on the e-commerce site.
Two economists are walking down the street. One sees a ten-dollar note on the footpath, and says to the other "Look, there's ten dollars on the footpath". The other says "No, that can't be. If there were money on the footpath, someone would've picked it up".
posted by pompomtom at 4:34 AM on March 14, 2022 [64 favorites]
Two economists are walking down the street. One sees a ten-dollar note on the footpath, and says to the other "Look, there's ten dollars on the footpath". The other says "No, that can't be. If there were money on the footpath, someone would've picked it up".
posted by pompomtom at 4:34 AM on March 14, 2022 [64 favorites]
It’s the same story every time: somebody claims to have invented a way to make infinite easy money, but what they actually do for a living is sell you the method. Seems like a red flag, no?
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:43 AM on March 14, 2022 [85 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:43 AM on March 14, 2022 [85 favorites]
Nowadays, it's a sucker per second.
posted by whatevernot at 4:49 AM on March 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by whatevernot at 4:49 AM on March 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
The only "get rich quick" scheme that actually works 100% of the time is to be born to immensely wealthy parents, then inherit their fortune when they die.
posted by fortitude25 at 4:50 AM on March 14, 2022 [78 favorites]
posted by fortitude25 at 4:50 AM on March 14, 2022 [78 favorites]
They even posted screenshots showing the money they had made from selling supplements on Amazon.
I'm trying to be more sympathetic in general, but really? They were persuaded by screenshots of money?
posted by FencingGal at 4:53 AM on March 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'm trying to be more sympathetic in general, but really? They were persuaded by screenshots of money?
posted by FencingGal at 4:53 AM on March 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
"They were persuaded by screenshots of money?"
Nope - screenshots of bitcoin. It's 2022.
posted by whatevernot at 4:59 AM on March 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
Nope - screenshots of bitcoin. It's 2022.
posted by whatevernot at 4:59 AM on March 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
sucker per second? if you upgrade your system (faster CPU, GPU and SSD), you can get a throughput of 3000Msuckers/second (peak 5000 but 3000 is the average).
posted by kokaku at 5:04 AM on March 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 5:04 AM on March 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
"3000Msuckers/second" = 1 Mega-Barnum.
posted by whatevernot at 5:05 AM on March 14, 2022 [46 favorites]
posted by whatevernot at 5:05 AM on March 14, 2022 [46 favorites]
Researchers in Brooklyn are saying you can bridge machines to get gigabarnum rates these days.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:10 AM on March 14, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by lazaruslong at 5:10 AM on March 14, 2022 [16 favorites]
That’s funny my new store is doing 100k per month on Amazon and I work on it maybe 3 hours per week because I have a team who handles it for me.Once you get far enough down, all of these "Only work X hours a week" schemes seem to have some other people doing the grunt work for you.
posted by DonnChadh at 5:13 AM on March 14, 2022 [19 favorites]
I'm trying to be more sympathetic in general, but really? They were persuaded by screenshots of money?
So I have an unhealthy tendency of trying to imagine myself in this kind of position, and I think the thing is that when you're that vulnerable/desperate/depressed/etc it's incredibly easy to have a good feeling about the guy selling magic beans out of his car trunk. People don't shell out their life savings on a lark, they do it because they know deep down that this is their chance to make it big. They even paid for the course with a fucking credit card instead of just not buying the course because they were that confident that they'd make the money back.
There are so many stupid stories about people making bazillions of dollars because they happened to be in the right place at the right time to invest in a startup / download a digital tulip-minting app / know how to exploit one weird trick that lets them sell beans for credit default swaps.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:34 AM on March 14, 2022 [30 favorites]
So I have an unhealthy tendency of trying to imagine myself in this kind of position, and I think the thing is that when you're that vulnerable/desperate/depressed/etc it's incredibly easy to have a good feeling about the guy selling magic beans out of his car trunk. People don't shell out their life savings on a lark, they do it because they know deep down that this is their chance to make it big. They even paid for the course with a fucking credit card instead of just not buying the course because they were that confident that they'd make the money back.
There are so many stupid stories about people making bazillions of dollars because they happened to be in the right place at the right time to invest in a startup / download a digital tulip-minting app / know how to exploit one weird trick that lets them sell beans for credit default swaps.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:34 AM on March 14, 2022 [30 favorites]
I'm not sure what the secret is to getting rich quick on real estate, but it seems to involve clumsily hand-lettered poster board signs at suburban intersections.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:38 AM on March 14, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:38 AM on March 14, 2022 [20 favorites]
I know a number of people who keep chasing after the Holy Grail of being financially-independent solely on "passive" income. The truly hilarious part is that this "passive" income takes more time out of their lives than their primary jobs. Most are into real estate, either "flipping" properties or building rental empires. And most spend their weekends fixing toilets or mowing lawns or working on their "flips" because finding people to do these tasks has gotten a lot harder and a lot more expensive as of late.
posted by drstrangelove at 6:01 AM on March 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by drstrangelove at 6:01 AM on March 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
Once you get far enough down, all of these "Only work X hours a week" schemes seem to have some other people doing the grunt work for you.
Which is fine because they always make sure to pay extremely fair wages, benefits, etc.
posted by trig at 6:22 AM on March 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
Which is fine because they always make sure to pay extremely fair wages, benefits, etc.
posted by trig at 6:22 AM on March 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don't think it's news to anyone here that the reason get rich quick grifts work is because so many people believe both a) wealth is earned by being clever/hard-working/deserving and b) that they are very, very special indeed. They weaponize ill-placed faith in capitalism.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:51 AM on March 14, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:51 AM on March 14, 2022 [16 favorites]
Homer Simpson on get-rich-quick schemes.
So I have an unhealthy tendency of trying to imagine myself in this kind of position, and I think the thing is that when you're that vulnerable/desperate/depressed/etc it's incredibly easy to have a good feeling about the guy selling magic beans out of his car trunk.
This is really good to remember. A lot of people really are desperate, and there are always people who get good at taking advantage of that desperation. Then it's easy to talk about how stupid desperate people are (and aren't we smart - we'd never fall for that) instead of how evil the people who exploit them are.
posted by FencingGal at 6:57 AM on March 14, 2022 [44 favorites]
So I have an unhealthy tendency of trying to imagine myself in this kind of position, and I think the thing is that when you're that vulnerable/desperate/depressed/etc it's incredibly easy to have a good feeling about the guy selling magic beans out of his car trunk.
This is really good to remember. A lot of people really are desperate, and there are always people who get good at taking advantage of that desperation. Then it's easy to talk about how stupid desperate people are (and aren't we smart - we'd never fall for that) instead of how evil the people who exploit them are.
posted by FencingGal at 6:57 AM on March 14, 2022 [44 favorites]
There are so many stupid stories about people making bazillions of dollars because they happened to be in the right place at the right time to invest in a startup / download a digital tulip-minting app / know how to exploit one weird trick that lets them sell beans for credit default swaps.
Moreover, some of the people who fall for it aren't the stereotypical MLM suckers who actively go out looking for magic bean vendors. My sister and brother in law are both people who have worked hard their entire adult lives (really, starting when they were still kids), and they got sucked into Amway for a little while, although, thankfully, not for long and they got out before they sunk serious money into it. (I think. They still have their house, and my sister recently retired, so I think they're OK, but I didn't really ask how much they put into it.) The thing is, people who lie about these sort of schemes are really good liars; if you know a serious fisherman, someone who can tell you exactly where and when the fish will be biting and exactly what lure and bait to use and so forth, well, that but with the bait being that One Weird Trick That Biden Won't Tell You about how to tell capitalism to kiss your ass goodbye by being really good at it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:02 AM on March 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
Moreover, some of the people who fall for it aren't the stereotypical MLM suckers who actively go out looking for magic bean vendors. My sister and brother in law are both people who have worked hard their entire adult lives (really, starting when they were still kids), and they got sucked into Amway for a little while, although, thankfully, not for long and they got out before they sunk serious money into it. (I think. They still have their house, and my sister recently retired, so I think they're OK, but I didn't really ask how much they put into it.) The thing is, people who lie about these sort of schemes are really good liars; if you know a serious fisherman, someone who can tell you exactly where and when the fish will be biting and exactly what lure and bait to use and so forth, well, that but with the bait being that One Weird Trick That Biden Won't Tell You about how to tell capitalism to kiss your ass goodbye by being really good at it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:02 AM on March 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
It's a good article and worth reading. I think it is clear in the article that the people who fell for the schemes weren't stupid -- they were desperate and vulnerable, and got taken advantage of by grifters using deceptive materials.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:10 AM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 7:10 AM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
]I don't think it's news to anyone here that the reason get rich quick grifts work is because so many people believe both a) wealth is earned by being clever/hard-working/deserving and b) that they are very, very special indeed. They weaponize ill-placed faith in capitalism.
In my limited experience with this in my family, it's not that people believe they are special.
Most of the people in my family who have fallen for these kinds of things (MLMs, seminars on secrets to using new technology) are people who, growing up, were disenfranched in some way - child of an alcoholic, for example; had kids early and struggled economically as a family - and who are often slightly undereducated - had to go into the trades or take jobs to survive early, did a college (not university, here) degree locally, etc.
They have a sense that Other People Know Something They Don't, and so they are on the lookout for it. And in a sense, they are right. The system was not working for them for one reason or another.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:16 AM on March 14, 2022 [69 favorites]
In my limited experience with this in my family, it's not that people believe they are special.
Most of the people in my family who have fallen for these kinds of things (MLMs, seminars on secrets to using new technology) are people who, growing up, were disenfranched in some way - child of an alcoholic, for example; had kids early and struggled economically as a family - and who are often slightly undereducated - had to go into the trades or take jobs to survive early, did a college (not university, here) degree locally, etc.
They have a sense that Other People Know Something They Don't, and so they are on the lookout for it. And in a sense, they are right. The system was not working for them for one reason or another.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:16 AM on March 14, 2022 [69 favorites]
I don't think they sounded particularly desperate -- the article mentions people who wanted a vacation home, etc -- but I also don't think you have to be particularly stupid or particularly greedy to fall for this sort of thing. You hear enough about this sort of drop-shipping business in mainstream media for it to seem entirely plausible. And you can look online and see how much cheaper things are if you order them in bulk from Ali Express than if you order them one at a time from Amazon. So that makes it seem more plausible. And side hustle culture is a very real thing right now. If you could work a few hours a week and make a few thousand dollars a month, you wouldn't be rich, but wouldn't it make your life a lot easier?
In the end, only Amazon really makes much money from those kinds of transactions. Amazon lets other people pay Amazon in order to take on Amazon's supply chain risk. Which is an amazing sort of trick in and of itself, but then if you find a product that's temporarily profitable, Amazon has access to all that data, imports its own supply, slaps an Amazon's Choice badge on it, undercuts your price and then you get to pay Amazon to dispose of the product you can no longer sell because Amazon undercut you on their own platform.
There is definitely a bad guy in all of this, but I'm not entirely sure it's "Amazon Secrets".
posted by jacquilynne at 7:19 AM on March 14, 2022 [25 favorites]
In the end, only Amazon really makes much money from those kinds of transactions. Amazon lets other people pay Amazon in order to take on Amazon's supply chain risk. Which is an amazing sort of trick in and of itself, but then if you find a product that's temporarily profitable, Amazon has access to all that data, imports its own supply, slaps an Amazon's Choice badge on it, undercuts your price and then you get to pay Amazon to dispose of the product you can no longer sell because Amazon undercut you on their own platform.
There is definitely a bad guy in all of this, but I'm not entirely sure it's "Amazon Secrets".
posted by jacquilynne at 7:19 AM on March 14, 2022 [25 favorites]
Or, at least, it isn't only "Amazon Secrets".
posted by jacquilynne at 7:20 AM on March 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 7:20 AM on March 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
Not to get too victim-blamey, but the exemplar item seems like a terrible choice?
What's the market for a cheap wine decanter? People who are drinking fancy wine and like fancy accessories and fancy affectations probably don't want to buy a cheap decanter on Amazon. People who are buying cheaper wine are probably not decanting it.
I could be wrong, but it does not strike me as an item that's going to move in volume.
posted by explosion at 7:23 AM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
What's the market for a cheap wine decanter? People who are drinking fancy wine and like fancy accessories and fancy affectations probably don't want to buy a cheap decanter on Amazon. People who are buying cheaper wine are probably not decanting it.
I could be wrong, but it does not strike me as an item that's going to move in volume.
posted by explosion at 7:23 AM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Once you get far enough down, all of these "Only work X hours a week" schemes seem to have some other people doing the grunt work for you.
Yes, and also that mindset tends to leave out what the actual work is. Perhaps a seller spends five hours a month "selling things on Amazon" because they have a whole team blah blah blah. Assuming you could actually set that up, you do have to actually manage that team of people, and make sure they're doing their jobs, and whatever other overhead there is to run a business. And then yeah there might be five hours where that seller, personally, posts a new product or something but that certainly ain't the whole thing.
I bet there are people who make good money middle-manning stuff into the Amazon Marketplace, but I bet it's a a very competitive space and that most if not all of the opportunity has already been exploited. Also, I think since the time this article was written Amazon has allowed Chinese companies to sell directly into the Marketplace, so there goes that. Also also, being successful would mean being happy reselling wine aerators or whatever on Amazon and/or managing people to do that for you, and that sounds pretty crappy in the long run no matter the financial rewards.
posted by mmcg at 7:23 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yes, and also that mindset tends to leave out what the actual work is. Perhaps a seller spends five hours a month "selling things on Amazon" because they have a whole team blah blah blah. Assuming you could actually set that up, you do have to actually manage that team of people, and make sure they're doing their jobs, and whatever other overhead there is to run a business. And then yeah there might be five hours where that seller, personally, posts a new product or something but that certainly ain't the whole thing.
I bet there are people who make good money middle-manning stuff into the Amazon Marketplace, but I bet it's a a very competitive space and that most if not all of the opportunity has already been exploited. Also, I think since the time this article was written Amazon has allowed Chinese companies to sell directly into the Marketplace, so there goes that. Also also, being successful would mean being happy reselling wine aerators or whatever on Amazon and/or managing people to do that for you, and that sounds pretty crappy in the long run no matter the financial rewards.
posted by mmcg at 7:23 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I could be wrong, but it does not strike me as an item that's going to move in volume.
I was struck by how the model involves choosing one or two products to sell, which seems super-risky. Choosing one that “hits” would be like winning a lottery ticket.
posted by Orlop at 7:27 AM on March 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
I was struck by how the model involves choosing one or two products to sell, which seems super-risky. Choosing one that “hits” would be like winning a lottery ticket.
posted by Orlop at 7:27 AM on March 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
So many of the sudden success stories people like to tell fall into the scratch one layer deep and there was already money to start with category. Take, for instance, Obvious Shirts. They make hilariously minimal, mostly Cubs-themed t-shirts. They're hugely successful and beloved in Chicago. I have a few of theirs myself.
People love to tell the story of the founder, Joe who had this oddball idea a few years back to make a t-shirt that simply said "Jake Arrieta is good at baseball" and print it in the most basic white font on the most basic blue tee. It took off like crazy, other good ideas followed and yadda yadda yadda, it's a business! It's a great story and a good example of the "Hey, I could do that!" school of get rick quick narratives. People love Joe and people love this story.
Here's the thing, though. When you hear him tell the longer version of this story, a few things stick out. He mentions starting the company out of the garage of his house a block or so from Wrigley Field. Go ahead and do a quick Zillow search on three bedroom houses within two blocks of Wrigley Field. If you get a fixer upper, it's $800K. More likely, it's a million plus. He owned that house himself, unmarried in his mid-20's. Then you dig a bit deeper and find out he was an exec with CareerBuilder (getting that job not long after getting his degree from an expensive private college) who did well enough to be able to quit and start his own company, not having to worry about income for a few years, and it seems he may have had support from his family on top of that, too.
Look, Joe is still a cool dude and the shirts are still great. His idea, I love it, good on him. But a lot of the "I could do that!" mythologizing around his company kind of ignores that he was already pretty damned affluent in his mid-20's before he made the first shirt. Critical detail there.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:29 AM on March 14, 2022 [93 favorites]
People love to tell the story of the founder, Joe who had this oddball idea a few years back to make a t-shirt that simply said "Jake Arrieta is good at baseball" and print it in the most basic white font on the most basic blue tee. It took off like crazy, other good ideas followed and yadda yadda yadda, it's a business! It's a great story and a good example of the "Hey, I could do that!" school of get rick quick narratives. People love Joe and people love this story.
Here's the thing, though. When you hear him tell the longer version of this story, a few things stick out. He mentions starting the company out of the garage of his house a block or so from Wrigley Field. Go ahead and do a quick Zillow search on three bedroom houses within two blocks of Wrigley Field. If you get a fixer upper, it's $800K. More likely, it's a million plus. He owned that house himself, unmarried in his mid-20's. Then you dig a bit deeper and find out he was an exec with CareerBuilder (getting that job not long after getting his degree from an expensive private college) who did well enough to be able to quit and start his own company, not having to worry about income for a few years, and it seems he may have had support from his family on top of that, too.
Look, Joe is still a cool dude and the shirts are still great. His idea, I love it, good on him. But a lot of the "I could do that!" mythologizing around his company kind of ignores that he was already pretty damned affluent in his mid-20's before he made the first shirt. Critical detail there.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:29 AM on March 14, 2022 [93 favorites]
So far the only guaranteed path - rock solid now, for decades - I’ve found to working less is to lower our standard of living relative to what we were making, and then to work only enough to maintain that. But nobody is going to buy a book about that.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:31 AM on March 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 7:31 AM on March 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
I thought that was a component of the FIRE "movement" that's generated a few books, ryanshepard
posted by Selena777 at 7:34 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 7:34 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I definitely read "Your Money or Your Life" in the 90s and it helped us a lot. But I will admit it's hard, especially once you have daycare.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:35 AM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 7:35 AM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Without having had any prior knowledge of how to do it, I recently helped a friend set up an LLC, and it's goddamn empowering to go through the process of setting up a business because it's a) easy and b) every step (registering with the secretary of state, getting a business checking account, etc) brings further validation. I can see someone who gets on that endorphin train as being easily taken advantage of. Hell, I almost even got taken advantage of by one of those "Order your certificate of good standing" junk mails that immediately came in the mail a couple days after filing the paperwork because it had a return address similar to a state office building.
I have no doubt that Amazon takes advantage of this. How hard did Amazon make it to lease space in their warehouse? Did they require a letter of credit from a bank, or did a simple checkbox arranging the drop-ship suffice?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:39 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I have no doubt that Amazon takes advantage of this. How hard did Amazon make it to lease space in their warehouse? Did they require a letter of credit from a bank, or did a simple checkbox arranging the drop-ship suffice?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:39 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
The only "get rich quick" scheme that actually works 100% of the time is to be born to immensely wealthy parents, then inherit their fortune when they die.
Depending on how shitty your rich parents are or how bad your relationship with your siblings is, this is also not a 100% guarantee
posted by thivaia at 7:40 AM on March 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
Depending on how shitty your rich parents are or how bad your relationship with your siblings is, this is also not a 100% guarantee
posted by thivaia at 7:40 AM on March 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
My dad showed me a handwritten* letter he’d gotten from an Amazon marketplace seller, asking for a review. I don’t remember what he bought, but I don’t think it was anything remarkable. It was creepy, and I advised him not to do anything about it, just as I tend to ignore review requests via email. Now I feel sorry for this guy incurring postal costs, pleading his case to ordinary buyers — good money after bad. Maybe I should fill out some reviews after all. (Yes, I know that Good People don’t use Amazon. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of ethical consumption.)
——
* Well, hand-addressed, hand-signed, and printed in handwriting font. Clearly some trouble.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:41 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
——
* Well, hand-addressed, hand-signed, and printed in handwriting font. Clearly some trouble.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:41 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
CynicalKnight: oh no no no. I clapped my hand over my mouth IRL
posted by Countess Elena at 7:43 AM on March 14, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 7:43 AM on March 14, 2022 [24 favorites]
ryanshepard, that's pretty much The Tightward Gazette. The author and her husband wanted to have a lot of kids and support the family on his income alone.
posted by FencingGal at 7:44 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 7:44 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
I went for a walk with a friend recently, who confided in me that she had "invested" US$230,000 - most of her life's savings - in licensed Marvel Comic NFTs, hoping they will go up enough that she can buy a house.
The truly horrific part of this is that SHE HAD 230,000 USD and STILL COULD NOT BUY A HOUSE
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:45 AM on March 14, 2022 [96 favorites]
The truly horrific part of this is that SHE HAD 230,000 USD and STILL COULD NOT BUY A HOUSE
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:45 AM on March 14, 2022 [96 favorites]
The only "get rich quick" scheme that actually works 100% of the time is to be born to immensely wealthy parents, then inherit their fortune when they die.
This only works if they die young! I have some relatives who could really use some money with super wealthy parents that just won't die! My relatives are touching 60 and I'm sure becoming a multi-millionaire at 60+ is great but it would be even better if they were 20 years younger. By the time they get the money, all the major things you need money for (kids, house, education) they will have already paid for.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:46 AM on March 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
This only works if they die young! I have some relatives who could really use some money with super wealthy parents that just won't die! My relatives are touching 60 and I'm sure becoming a multi-millionaire at 60+ is great but it would be even better if they were 20 years younger. By the time they get the money, all the major things you need money for (kids, house, education) they will have already paid for.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:46 AM on March 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
Shades of Tim Ferriss! (The Four-Hour Work Week). I think it's possible that he was making money reselling shirts from Asia, but by the time everyone knows about an opportunity, it's overcrowded.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:47 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:47 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
By the time they get the money, all the major things you need money for (kids, house, education) they will have already paid for.
All of those costs pale in comparison to the cost of getting old and dying tho
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:51 AM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
All of those costs pale in comparison to the cost of getting old and dying tho
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:51 AM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
I went for a walk with a friend recently, who confided in me that she had "invested" US$230,000 - most of her life's savings - in licensed Marvel Comic NFTs, hoping they will go up enough that she can buy a house.
The truly horrific part of this is that SHE HAD 230,000 USD and STILL COULD NOT BUY A HOUSE
See, this is a great example of how tough it is to think clearly about who we should really be angry at. I read the anecdote about the woman with the Marvel NFTs and instantly thought (to my detriment), I would never do something so stupid with my money. But, on reflection, what does it say that someone with 230K couldn't afford a reasonable downpayment on a house, and put themselves in a position where NFTs sound like a good idea? Human cupidity only explains so much.
This only works if they die young!
Well yes, you're absolutely right, but in retrospect it is still a great line!
posted by fortitude25 at 7:56 AM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
The truly horrific part of this is that SHE HAD 230,000 USD and STILL COULD NOT BUY A HOUSE
See, this is a great example of how tough it is to think clearly about who we should really be angry at. I read the anecdote about the woman with the Marvel NFTs and instantly thought (to my detriment), I would never do something so stupid with my money. But, on reflection, what does it say that someone with 230K couldn't afford a reasonable downpayment on a house, and put themselves in a position where NFTs sound like a good idea? Human cupidity only explains so much.
This only works if they die young!
Well yes, you're absolutely right, but in retrospect it is still a great line!
posted by fortitude25 at 7:56 AM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
By the time they get the money, all the major things you need money for (kids, house, education) they will have already paid for.
There's still a major advantage there, though. I have a friend in that situation (with a wealthy father who seems to be on track to make it to 100). Knowing that there is a large payout coming eventually, even if it is still decades away, means that he doesn't need to worry nearly as much about savings and retirement accounts -- he can spend more of his money now while still having confidence is a well-funded retirement. And, reading between the lines, there has been numerous smaller "here, let me help you out" gifts over the years, which make things like a house downpayment easier too.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:59 AM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
There's still a major advantage there, though. I have a friend in that situation (with a wealthy father who seems to be on track to make it to 100). Knowing that there is a large payout coming eventually, even if it is still decades away, means that he doesn't need to worry nearly as much about savings and retirement accounts -- he can spend more of his money now while still having confidence is a well-funded retirement. And, reading between the lines, there has been numerous smaller "here, let me help you out" gifts over the years, which make things like a house downpayment easier too.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:59 AM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Also also, being successful would mean being happy reselling wine aerators or whatever on Amazon and/or managing people to do that for you, and that sounds pretty crappy in the long run
Not if you're Aspiring Slimemonger Allyson Pippin, who sells slime
posted by oulipian at 8:07 AM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Not if you're Aspiring Slimemonger Allyson Pippin, who sells slime
posted by oulipian at 8:07 AM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
It’s the same story every time: somebody claims to have invented a way to make infinite easy money, but what they actually do for a living is sell you the method. Seems like a red flag, no?
At this point the passive income ouroboros is shitting deep into its own gullet:
How To Sell Courses Online In 2022 (And Earn $5000+ A Month)
How to Make $17,000 a Month in Passive Income from Udemy Courses
even to the point of apologia as marketing -- People Are Attacking Online Courses
Here’s why (and how) you should still make one
re 'screenshots of money' -- it's widely understood people rent fake money for influencer videos by the day (just like the cars and the houses and the people hanging around them).
$ 1 Million Dollars - Prop Money (Fake)
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:09 AM on March 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
At this point the passive income ouroboros is shitting deep into its own gullet:
How To Sell Courses Online In 2022 (And Earn $5000+ A Month)
How to Make $17,000 a Month in Passive Income from Udemy Courses
even to the point of apologia as marketing -- People Are Attacking Online Courses
Here’s why (and how) you should still make one
re 'screenshots of money' -- it's widely understood people rent fake money for influencer videos by the day (just like the cars and the houses and the people hanging around them).
$ 1 Million Dollars - Prop Money (Fake)
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:09 AM on March 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
$ 1 Million Dollars - Prop Money (Fake)
I appreciate the fact that you rent the fake money.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 8:23 AM on March 14, 2022 [19 favorites]
I appreciate the fact that you rent the fake money.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 8:23 AM on March 14, 2022 [19 favorites]
Not if you're Aspiring Slimemonger Allyson Pippin, who sells slime.
It's a good point. If I could be a slimemonger or aeratorlord I may be back on board!
posted by mmcg at 8:24 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's a good point. If I could be a slimemonger or aeratorlord I may be back on board!
posted by mmcg at 8:24 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
... stories about people making bazillions of dollars because they happened to be in the right place at the right time to invest in a startup ...
Lance Armstrong’s $100,000 investment in Uber gave him $20 million.
le sigh
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 8:28 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Lance Armstrong’s $100,000 investment in Uber gave him $20 million.
le sigh
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 8:28 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
"3000Msuckers/second" = 1 Mega-Barnum
I think by definition 1 barnum is 1 sucker/minute. So 3000 million (3 billion) suckers per second would translate to 180 billion suckers per minute, or 180 gigabarnums.
posted by Johnny Assay at 8:28 AM on March 14, 2022 [23 favorites]
I think by definition 1 barnum is 1 sucker/minute. So 3000 million (3 billion) suckers per second would translate to 180 billion suckers per minute, or 180 gigabarnums.
posted by Johnny Assay at 8:28 AM on March 14, 2022 [23 favorites]
I don't know of a better way to wealth than "live modestly and have a high income", but of those two things even the easier one to control ("live modestly") is outside of our control. House prices and cost of living can be controlled to an extent by where you live, if you have the ability to move; but it's rising everywhere. Never mind having a serious health event or a chronic condition requiring maintenance treatment.
Buying a house at age 26 for less than 2 years' gross income? Getting multiple free hand-me-down cars until eventually choosing to buy a new car in a cash transaction at age 32? Having household income grow until the household could save >50% of gross? This is what happened for me & my spouse. We're way beyond comfortable and it's likely to be that way for the balance of our lives. But these things are like winning the lottery—not necessarily in terms of absolute frequency but still it's not something that a random person can simply replicate.
I think these kinds of stories about making it big on amazon or house flipping or whatever serve a second purpose besides separating some marks from their money: they also distract us from making a collective effort towards, well, a survivable economy for everyone. If anyone who is motivated can make a good living, then why work on UBI, other public assistance programs, housing affordability & quality, improving wages & working conditions, etc. It's win-win-win for capitalism and lose-lose-lose for the humans that are the components of the capitalist system.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 8:29 AM on March 14, 2022 [30 favorites]
Buying a house at age 26 for less than 2 years' gross income? Getting multiple free hand-me-down cars until eventually choosing to buy a new car in a cash transaction at age 32? Having household income grow until the household could save >50% of gross? This is what happened for me & my spouse. We're way beyond comfortable and it's likely to be that way for the balance of our lives. But these things are like winning the lottery—not necessarily in terms of absolute frequency but still it's not something that a random person can simply replicate.
I think these kinds of stories about making it big on amazon or house flipping or whatever serve a second purpose besides separating some marks from their money: they also distract us from making a collective effort towards, well, a survivable economy for everyone. If anyone who is motivated can make a good living, then why work on UBI, other public assistance programs, housing affordability & quality, improving wages & working conditions, etc. It's win-win-win for capitalism and lose-lose-lose for the humans that are the components of the capitalist system.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 8:29 AM on March 14, 2022 [30 favorites]
I appreciate the fact that you rent the fake money.
Then you should sign up for my course, How to Make $4000 a Day in Real Money Passive Income by Renting Out Fake Money! Results not guaranteed.
posted by jimw at 8:33 AM on March 14, 2022 [18 favorites]
Then you should sign up for my course, How to Make $4000 a Day in Real Money Passive Income by Renting Out Fake Money! Results not guaranteed.
posted by jimw at 8:33 AM on March 14, 2022 [18 favorites]
I also don't think you have to be particularly stupid or particularly greedy to fall for this sort of thing
(a) Anyone, anyone can be scammed. Anyone reading this. Me. In my line of work, I have to remind myself of this a lot.
(b) Nonetheless, being stupid or greedy helps the process along considerably. If you manage to reach the stage of adulthood where you have $40K in unencumbered cash to spend and yet still don't auto-reject a "earn $10K a month working part-time!" scam with added "pay us $3K up front for the course to learn how to do it!!!" on top, you are definitely some of both. This wasn't even a particularly sophisticated ad campaign pulling some of the levers that are most useful (celebrity, personal magnetism).
on reflection, what does it say that someone with 230K couldn't afford a reasonable downpayment on a house
I did the Manhattan math (particularly strenuous because most places require 20% down plus a year or more of liquid assets post-closing) once here recently so won't repeat, but $230K should be an adequate down payment for a small apartment even somewhere around here. This is someone trying for the golden ticket.
posted by praemunire at 8:33 AM on March 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
(a) Anyone, anyone can be scammed. Anyone reading this. Me. In my line of work, I have to remind myself of this a lot.
(b) Nonetheless, being stupid or greedy helps the process along considerably. If you manage to reach the stage of adulthood where you have $40K in unencumbered cash to spend and yet still don't auto-reject a "earn $10K a month working part-time!" scam with added "pay us $3K up front for the course to learn how to do it!!!" on top, you are definitely some of both. This wasn't even a particularly sophisticated ad campaign pulling some of the levers that are most useful (celebrity, personal magnetism).
on reflection, what does it say that someone with 230K couldn't afford a reasonable downpayment on a house
I did the Manhattan math (particularly strenuous because most places require 20% down plus a year or more of liquid assets post-closing) once here recently so won't repeat, but $230K should be an adequate down payment for a small apartment even somewhere around here. This is someone trying for the golden ticket.
posted by praemunire at 8:33 AM on March 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
If JSG Boggs makes a NFT of a hundred dollar bill, what's it worth?
posted by Jacen at 8:41 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 8:41 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
The truly horrific part of this is that SHE HAD 230,000 USD and STILL COULD NOT BUY A HOUSE
Maybe she thought she could buy a house outright if she got lucky with the NFTs? $230K gives you a 20% down payment on a million dollar house, though, and mortgages are nearly free right now. Personally I'd be looking at using a mortgage to provide some liquidity and stability against future rent increases and stick the difference in index funds. Even with recent changes to US tax law that capped deductions it seems like you could do a whole lot worse than a cheap mortgage and some stable investments.
posted by fedward at 8:41 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Maybe she thought she could buy a house outright if she got lucky with the NFTs? $230K gives you a 20% down payment on a million dollar house, though, and mortgages are nearly free right now. Personally I'd be looking at using a mortgage to provide some liquidity and stability against future rent increases and stick the difference in index funds. Even with recent changes to US tax law that capped deductions it seems like you could do a whole lot worse than a cheap mortgage and some stable investments.
posted by fedward at 8:41 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
My house in Ohio cost less than what your friend invested in NFTs. On one hand, it is Ohio. On the other hand, I own a house and not a URL.
I feel terrible for your friend.
posted by gwydapllew at 8:42 AM on March 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
I feel terrible for your friend.
posted by gwydapllew at 8:42 AM on March 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
Also, what's the alternative to falling for a scam like this for many desperate people? It's accepting that nothing is ever going to improve in their economic lives and that they're stuck where they are till death. Like buying a lottery ticket, the scam is an utterly forlorn hope of breaking free, but it least it lets people dream for a while.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:46 AM on March 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 8:46 AM on March 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
A relative recently got taken in one of these scams. In this case, selling essential oils and beauty supplies. He's been through a lot in the last year and was looking for a way to make money that would give him a more predictable work schedule so he could be home for his kids.
I run a small business, but we don't have a relationship where he would ever ask me for advice. I knew it was a bad use of his money when the first thing he did was excitedly send me a picture of his logo and business name, which is usually not one of the first steps to setting up a successful business; the value proposition should always be well before that.
My big worry is him comparing himself to what I do without knowing about the years of struggles or sleepless nights. It's dangerous to compare your insides to someone else's outsides. I know there's a lot of shame around failure in American culture and he's never going to talk to me about it, so I can't tell him how to avoid this in the future. I hate just watching this happen.
I'm praying that he didn't sink in more than he could lose.
posted by Alison at 8:52 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
I run a small business, but we don't have a relationship where he would ever ask me for advice. I knew it was a bad use of his money when the first thing he did was excitedly send me a picture of his logo and business name, which is usually not one of the first steps to setting up a successful business; the value proposition should always be well before that.
My big worry is him comparing himself to what I do without knowing about the years of struggles or sleepless nights. It's dangerous to compare your insides to someone else's outsides. I know there's a lot of shame around failure in American culture and he's never going to talk to me about it, so I can't tell him how to avoid this in the future. I hate just watching this happen.
I'm praying that he didn't sink in more than he could lose.
posted by Alison at 8:52 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Also, what's the alternative to falling for a scam like this for many desperate people? It's accepting that nothing is ever going to improve in their economic lives and that they're stuck where they are till death. Like buying a lottery ticket, the scam is an utterly forlorn hope of breaking free, but it least it lets people dream for a while.
Buying a lottery ticket once in a while and dreaming a bit is a much cheaper and perhaps also more realistic alternative.
posted by Dysk at 8:58 AM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Buying a lottery ticket once in a while and dreaming a bit is a much cheaper and perhaps also more realistic alternative.
posted by Dysk at 8:58 AM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
$230K gives you a 20% down payment on a million dollar house, though, and mortgages are nearly free right now.
I have a friend doing this math in Toronto right now though and if you're single, carrying a 600,000 mortgage (this is under the current price for homes) will run you 2,900/mo just for the mortgage, plus taxes (another 300-350/mo), plus utilities, plus insurance, plus maintenance. For a condo you're also looking at condo fees even if you're unlikely to have to do the maintenance. And to get a detached home for 830,000 you'd be looking at an hour commute each way which has a lot of costs associated with it.
So "free" is not free even if interest rates are low when your principal is so big. Housing is insane right now.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:58 AM on March 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
I have a friend doing this math in Toronto right now though and if you're single, carrying a 600,000 mortgage (this is under the current price for homes) will run you 2,900/mo just for the mortgage, plus taxes (another 300-350/mo), plus utilities, plus insurance, plus maintenance. For a condo you're also looking at condo fees even if you're unlikely to have to do the maintenance. And to get a detached home for 830,000 you'd be looking at an hour commute each way which has a lot of costs associated with it.
So "free" is not free even if interest rates are low when your principal is so big. Housing is insane right now.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:58 AM on March 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
I did the Manhattan math (particularly strenuous because most places require 20% down plus a year or more of liquid assets post-closing) once here recently so won't repeat, but $230K should be an adequate down payment for a small apartment even somewhere around here. This is someone trying for the golden ticket.
$230K gives you a 20% down payment on a million dollar house, though, and mortgages are nearly free right now.
While I fully agree that one can, almost anywhere, purchase SOMEthing with 230K on hand, I also must point out that
1. it's not excessively greedy or stupid to want something more than a tiny lil' studio/jr 1-bed apartment as your (semi-) permanent home.
2. If that's all your money in the world, and you need it all for a down payment plus closing plus moving, you may well feel like you cannot risk going forward with no savings as a backstop--home ownership comes with a whole slew of new costs, after all.
3. Having 230K as 20% on a million dollar house doesn't mean you can afford the, what, 5K, 6K a month your mortgage costs after that. Mortgages are nearly free in interest terms, but they still cost real actual dollars every month.
It's entirely possible that the person in question will settle for nothing less than a 7-bedroom estate or something and is just wildly out of touch, but I don't think that's necessarily the case.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:00 AM on March 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
$230K gives you a 20% down payment on a million dollar house, though, and mortgages are nearly free right now.
While I fully agree that one can, almost anywhere, purchase SOMEthing with 230K on hand, I also must point out that
1. it's not excessively greedy or stupid to want something more than a tiny lil' studio/jr 1-bed apartment as your (semi-) permanent home.
2. If that's all your money in the world, and you need it all for a down payment plus closing plus moving, you may well feel like you cannot risk going forward with no savings as a backstop--home ownership comes with a whole slew of new costs, after all.
3. Having 230K as 20% on a million dollar house doesn't mean you can afford the, what, 5K, 6K a month your mortgage costs after that. Mortgages are nearly free in interest terms, but they still cost real actual dollars every month.
It's entirely possible that the person in question will settle for nothing less than a 7-bedroom estate or something and is just wildly out of touch, but I don't think that's necessarily the case.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:00 AM on March 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
I wonder what role TV shows like The Apprentice and Shark Tank play in forming some people's completely unrealistic view of how the world of business works? Could they be another contributing factor?
Buying a lottery ticket once in a while and dreaming a bit is a much cheaper and perhaps also more realistic alternative.
True - but the principle's the same.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:02 AM on March 14, 2022
Buying a lottery ticket once in a while and dreaming a bit is a much cheaper and perhaps also more realistic alternative.
True - but the principle's the same.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:02 AM on March 14, 2022
Housing is insane right now.
It’s been insane for 40+ years. My parents purchased a big house in Cambridge, MA in 1976 for $45,000. Mom sold it in 1997 for $750,000. It’s easily worth $2 million now.
When does it end? What’s the final answer here? When will the revolution happen?
posted by Melismata at 9:07 AM on March 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
It’s been insane for 40+ years. My parents purchased a big house in Cambridge, MA in 1976 for $45,000. Mom sold it in 1997 for $750,000. It’s easily worth $2 million now.
When does it end? What’s the final answer here? When will the revolution happen?
posted by Melismata at 9:07 AM on March 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
My bet is the $230k was a retirement fund. People withdraw from their 401Ks all the time to buy houses, often with the hope that the house will appreciate enough to make up for the risk of zeroing out your 401K. If you bought into the NFT hype, I could see thinking the same about NFTs and then some - you could make enough to buy the house AND replenish your retirement fund.
I'm a smart person, and make a decent middle class living that has afforded me (with a partner) being able to buy a reasonably priced, 100-year old house in a less-than-desirable neighborhood in Chicago. Being willing to have a 1hr15min commute helped. It also helped that we bought in 2019; at today's prices my financial situation would look very different. I also have a just-barely-enough nest egg thanks to working 14 years at a job that contributed to a pension fund, plus having relatively reasonable student loan debt.
Even with all of my luck and privilege, some bad luck with my dog's health over the last year has meant that suddenly the plan to get our house re-roofed this summer might require taking on debt, and it sucks. We're looking into personal loans, credit cards, HELOCs, all kinds of options. The roof leaks so we can't wait it out another year or risk even more water damage, and there are skylights that need replacing or removing that complicate the job and the expense. Anyway, I bring this up because it has, for the first time in my life, occurred to me that maybe I could get a second job -- so I see the appeal of the idea of some "passive income." Because I sure as hell don't have the energy nor is the cost/benefit there for me to pick up a more traditional part time job working 10-12 hrs a week earning minimum wage.
So I can imagine someone thinking that even if folks aren't totally desperate, the idea of having just another $1-2k in their pocket every month could just... ease those everyday financial stressors and difficult compromises we have to make to survive in this increasingly expensive world. I can viscerally feel that temptation right now, and I don't think you have to be greedy to want that.
posted by misskaz at 9:12 AM on March 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
I'm a smart person, and make a decent middle class living that has afforded me (with a partner) being able to buy a reasonably priced, 100-year old house in a less-than-desirable neighborhood in Chicago. Being willing to have a 1hr15min commute helped. It also helped that we bought in 2019; at today's prices my financial situation would look very different. I also have a just-barely-enough nest egg thanks to working 14 years at a job that contributed to a pension fund, plus having relatively reasonable student loan debt.
Even with all of my luck and privilege, some bad luck with my dog's health over the last year has meant that suddenly the plan to get our house re-roofed this summer might require taking on debt, and it sucks. We're looking into personal loans, credit cards, HELOCs, all kinds of options. The roof leaks so we can't wait it out another year or risk even more water damage, and there are skylights that need replacing or removing that complicate the job and the expense. Anyway, I bring this up because it has, for the first time in my life, occurred to me that maybe I could get a second job -- so I see the appeal of the idea of some "passive income." Because I sure as hell don't have the energy nor is the cost/benefit there for me to pick up a more traditional part time job working 10-12 hrs a week earning minimum wage.
So I can imagine someone thinking that even if folks aren't totally desperate, the idea of having just another $1-2k in their pocket every month could just... ease those everyday financial stressors and difficult compromises we have to make to survive in this increasingly expensive world. I can viscerally feel that temptation right now, and I don't think you have to be greedy to want that.
posted by misskaz at 9:12 AM on March 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
→
Mr Boggs regrets to inform you that he is unable to take this commission, having passed away in 2017.
posted by scruss at 9:16 AM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
If JSG Boggs makes a NFT of a hundred dollar bill, what's it worth?
Mr Boggs regrets to inform you that he is unable to take this commission, having passed away in 2017.
posted by scruss at 9:16 AM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
American class mobility is being born comfortably middle-class and dying in poverty.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:18 AM on March 14, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:18 AM on March 14, 2022 [20 favorites]
Having 230K as 20% on a million dollar house doesn't mean you can afford the, what, 5K, 6K a month your mortgage costs after that. Mortgages are nearly free in interest terms, but they still cost real actual dollars every month.
This.
I learned the hard way that I could afford to buy a BMW with a loan plan but I could not afford to maintain a running BMW after the warranty ended.
posted by archimago at 9:19 AM on March 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
This.
I learned the hard way that I could afford to buy a BMW with a loan plan but I could not afford to maintain a running BMW after the warranty ended.
posted by archimago at 9:19 AM on March 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
So I can imagine someone thinking that even if folks aren't totally desperate, the idea of having just another $1-2k in their pocket every month could just... ease those everyday financial stressors and difficult compromises we have to make to survive in this increasingly expensive world. I can viscerally feel that temptation right now, and I don't think you have to be greedy to want that.
Growing up, I knew a lot of people who fell into various get-rich scams, from Amway stuff to shady investments. Heck, my mother lost her entire inheritance to a small-time Bernie Madoff type. The common thread was always something like this -- needing just a little more money, an amount that should be just within reach. Just enough to pay off a hospital bill, or make a car repair. And yet, you already work full time, you have kids, you just cannot physically take a second job, a third job. Yeah there's a little part of them that hopes it'll lead to the real brass ring, of never working again. But mostly they don't start out truly greedy. The greed is on the upper levels of these scams.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:26 AM on March 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
Growing up, I knew a lot of people who fell into various get-rich scams, from Amway stuff to shady investments. Heck, my mother lost her entire inheritance to a small-time Bernie Madoff type. The common thread was always something like this -- needing just a little more money, an amount that should be just within reach. Just enough to pay off a hospital bill, or make a car repair. And yet, you already work full time, you have kids, you just cannot physically take a second job, a third job. Yeah there's a little part of them that hopes it'll lead to the real brass ring, of never working again. But mostly they don't start out truly greedy. The greed is on the upper levels of these scams.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:26 AM on March 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
Alison, some tentative advice. Maybe ask him if he'd like to hear about your history with money. If the answer is yes, fine. If the answer is no, you haven't dumped a lot on him.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:37 AM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:37 AM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
If that's all your money in the world, and you need it all for a down payment plus closing plus moving
Sure, but I'm not sure how you get from there to investing the whole thing in the 2020s equivalent of tulips or Beanie Babies instead. Anyway, I think my glibness undercut my point because I live in a crazy housing market where people do seem to be buying million dollar homes pretty regularly. I'm not saying that friend necessarily should have spent all that money on the down payment for a house she couldn't afford the monthly payments for, but assuming she's already paying rent she could have bought what used to be referred to as a starter home for what amounts to the same payment. For decades that's been the way people in the US have tended to build wealth.
We didn't spend a million bucks when we bought our house in 2013, but the house next door to us sold last year in an off-market transaction for $975K. Redfin thinks our less-recently-renovated house is worth $960K or so. They're the same square footage. When we bought our house the tax benefits meant that even though our mortgage was higher on paper than our rent had been on a one-bedroom apartment, our monthly cash flow was barely impacted. Yes, the tax benefits have been reduced since then, but at least in the US the tax law still "encourages" homeownership by making money paid on a mortgage or local property taxes deductible in a way that money paid on rent isn't.
I know that some people are afraid of debt so they'll structure their lives around not having any, and I know that some people just aren't satisfied with the idea of buying a "starter home" when they think something better is just outside their grasp if only they do … whatever. But I also know it's foolish not to take advantage of the incentives designed into the system, and those incentives mean that up to some point (limited by tax law and local conditions) every dollar spent on a mortgage goes farther than the same dollar would go if spent on rent. That's not even accounting for how mortgage rates are historically low, pushing the math even farther in the direction of buying instead of renting (and pushing prices up in the process). But shelter is a basic need, housing markets aren't rational, and people tend to lose their heads after losing too many bidding wars. Personally I feel like putting the money into NFTs is even more irrational than the housing market is, but what do I know.
posted by fedward at 9:47 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Sure, but I'm not sure how you get from there to investing the whole thing in the 2020s equivalent of tulips or Beanie Babies instead. Anyway, I think my glibness undercut my point because I live in a crazy housing market where people do seem to be buying million dollar homes pretty regularly. I'm not saying that friend necessarily should have spent all that money on the down payment for a house she couldn't afford the monthly payments for, but assuming she's already paying rent she could have bought what used to be referred to as a starter home for what amounts to the same payment. For decades that's been the way people in the US have tended to build wealth.
We didn't spend a million bucks when we bought our house in 2013, but the house next door to us sold last year in an off-market transaction for $975K. Redfin thinks our less-recently-renovated house is worth $960K or so. They're the same square footage. When we bought our house the tax benefits meant that even though our mortgage was higher on paper than our rent had been on a one-bedroom apartment, our monthly cash flow was barely impacted. Yes, the tax benefits have been reduced since then, but at least in the US the tax law still "encourages" homeownership by making money paid on a mortgage or local property taxes deductible in a way that money paid on rent isn't.
I know that some people are afraid of debt so they'll structure their lives around not having any, and I know that some people just aren't satisfied with the idea of buying a "starter home" when they think something better is just outside their grasp if only they do … whatever. But I also know it's foolish not to take advantage of the incentives designed into the system, and those incentives mean that up to some point (limited by tax law and local conditions) every dollar spent on a mortgage goes farther than the same dollar would go if spent on rent. That's not even accounting for how mortgage rates are historically low, pushing the math even farther in the direction of buying instead of renting (and pushing prices up in the process). But shelter is a basic need, housing markets aren't rational, and people tend to lose their heads after losing too many bidding wars. Personally I feel like putting the money into NFTs is even more irrational than the housing market is, but what do I know.
posted by fedward at 9:47 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
If that's all your money in the world, and you need it all for a down payment plus closing plus moving, you may well feel like you cannot risk going forward with no savings as a backstop--home ownership comes with a whole slew of new costs, after all.
My calculation includes a year of mortgage plus maintenance liquid post-closing, basically another 10% of margin available to spend. Co-ops require that, or more, for a reason. Thus for $230K we are talking about a ~$650K apartment (on which total monthlies should lie somewhere between $2500-$3500). This is math I know pretty well from window-shopping for ~15 years.
People who have $230K to deploy (e.g., outside of retirement accounts) are, in the absence of really unusual circumstances, simply not "desperate" people who have "no choice but a lottery ticket." I don't have enough saved outside of retirement accounts to buy the kind of Manhattan apartment I would like to live in indefinitely yet/maybe ever?, even though on a month-to-month basis I could cover the costs on a small place, so I rent. I've never had a dream rental, but I've also never been in (in this era of my life) some kind of precarious or unendurable renting situation.
The people covered in this particular story (and mentioned in that comment) are largely middle-class aspirers who are in considerable part both greedy and dumb. That doesn't make the scams okay. It doesn't make the broader culture okay. But let's not act like these are folks with their backs against the wall. Honestly, this is one of the reasons I see less and less value in mortgages: a huge proportion of people lack the sophistication to manage them through either basic money troubles or the attentions of a mildly importunate scammer, and you can run into almost infinite trouble and loss if you can't handle your mortgage business.
posted by praemunire at 9:54 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
My calculation includes a year of mortgage plus maintenance liquid post-closing, basically another 10% of margin available to spend. Co-ops require that, or more, for a reason. Thus for $230K we are talking about a ~$650K apartment (on which total monthlies should lie somewhere between $2500-$3500). This is math I know pretty well from window-shopping for ~15 years.
People who have $230K to deploy (e.g., outside of retirement accounts) are, in the absence of really unusual circumstances, simply not "desperate" people who have "no choice but a lottery ticket." I don't have enough saved outside of retirement accounts to buy the kind of Manhattan apartment I would like to live in indefinitely yet/maybe ever?, even though on a month-to-month basis I could cover the costs on a small place, so I rent. I've never had a dream rental, but I've also never been in (in this era of my life) some kind of precarious or unendurable renting situation.
The people covered in this particular story (and mentioned in that comment) are largely middle-class aspirers who are in considerable part both greedy and dumb. That doesn't make the scams okay. It doesn't make the broader culture okay. But let's not act like these are folks with their backs against the wall. Honestly, this is one of the reasons I see less and less value in mortgages: a huge proportion of people lack the sophistication to manage them through either basic money troubles or the attentions of a mildly importunate scammer, and you can run into almost infinite trouble and loss if you can't handle your mortgage business.
posted by praemunire at 9:54 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I went for a walk with a friend recently, who confided in me that she had "invested" US$230,000 - most of her life's savings - in licensed Marvel Comic NFTs, hoping they will go up enough that she can buy a house.
Haha I remember in the early 90s, when you just had to buy the #1 Collector's Edition Marvel comics as an investment that would pay for college or a house or whatever.
posted by nushustu at 9:55 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Haha I remember in the early 90s, when you just had to buy the #1 Collector's Edition Marvel comics as an investment that would pay for college or a house or whatever.
posted by nushustu at 9:55 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Two economists are walking down the street. One sees a ten-dollar note on the footpath, and says to the other "Look, there's ten dollars on the footpath". The other says "No, that can't be. If there were money on the footpath, someone would've picked it up".
I mean, that's a great joke about the cynicism of economists, but yeah, it would be pretty useful for people to learn to think “hmm, now where did that come from, why didn't anyone else pick it up, and am I just lucky” when there's money that's apparently been left on the table.
posted by ambrosen at 10:02 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I mean, that's a great joke about the cynicism of economists, but yeah, it would be pretty useful for people to learn to think “hmm, now where did that come from, why didn't anyone else pick it up, and am I just lucky” when there's money that's apparently been left on the table.
posted by ambrosen at 10:02 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
The people covered in this particular story (and mentioned in that comment) are largely middle-class aspirers who are in considerable part both greedy and dumb.
I'm not sure where you're getting this. The only couple we get any financial info on are described as "struggling to make rent." They put the cost of the course on a credit card. We know another person is an IT consultant. I don't see any other specifics.
posted by FencingGal at 10:03 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure where you're getting this. The only couple we get any financial info on are described as "struggling to make rent." They put the cost of the course on a credit card. We know another person is an IT consultant. I don't see any other specifics.
posted by FencingGal at 10:03 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think they're getting it from the amount even the tiny NY apt couple were able to sink into it - 40k - as well as the aerospace worker, ER doctor and medical supply business owner mentioned. Also the following quote:
It’s not low-income people who fall victim to online frauds, Vladeck said—they don’t have the thousands of dollars needed to pay scammers in the first place. It’s people who have a little bit of extra money, and want to invest it to get more breathing room. When, during the Great Recession, millions of families lost jobs or saw their income reduced, business-opportunity scams proliferated, he said. Many of the people I talked to at the seminar said they just wanted a little bit more money than they had—to build a bigger retirement fund, work less, buy a vacation home.
posted by Selena777 at 10:27 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
It’s not low-income people who fall victim to online frauds, Vladeck said—they don’t have the thousands of dollars needed to pay scammers in the first place. It’s people who have a little bit of extra money, and want to invest it to get more breathing room. When, during the Great Recession, millions of families lost jobs or saw their income reduced, business-opportunity scams proliferated, he said. Many of the people I talked to at the seminar said they just wanted a little bit more money than they had—to build a bigger retirement fund, work less, buy a vacation home.
posted by Selena777 at 10:27 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
If JSG Boggs makes a NFT of a hundred dollar bill, what's it worth?
$20, same as in town
posted by chavenet at 10:28 AM on March 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
$20, same as in town
posted by chavenet at 10:28 AM on March 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
Thanks Selena777. I can see that. I thought the 40K was on put on a credit card though.
We are constantly inundated with messages telling us that buying stuff is the way to happiness. I have to wonder about the effect of constant exposure to advertising - that is everywhere. I have seen it compared to propaganda in communist countries (I have a friend who thinks that's insulting to people living under communism, and I see her point, but I still think the comparison is worthwhile just because we are getting these messages and we don't even realize how constant it is).
I am financially stable after years of not being financially stable, and I am certainly comfortable now, but I still find myself wondering if I'm really earning what I'm worth, should I look for another job, am I really going to be OK in retirement. Probably most people in the US deal with at least some level of financial insecurity. I understand the temptation to think you have found something that will fix that for you.
I've also never forgotten something I read years ago. A study measured people's happiness at different income levels. Everyone was pretty close to the same, but one thing that was true across the board was that people in every single income group thought their lives would be perfect if they were in the next group up. So the people who were making $25K thought everything would be great at $35K, while the people at $35K though they'd be content at $45K.
It's just very, very human to want more money.
posted by FencingGal at 10:40 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
We are constantly inundated with messages telling us that buying stuff is the way to happiness. I have to wonder about the effect of constant exposure to advertising - that is everywhere. I have seen it compared to propaganda in communist countries (I have a friend who thinks that's insulting to people living under communism, and I see her point, but I still think the comparison is worthwhile just because we are getting these messages and we don't even realize how constant it is).
I am financially stable after years of not being financially stable, and I am certainly comfortable now, but I still find myself wondering if I'm really earning what I'm worth, should I look for another job, am I really going to be OK in retirement. Probably most people in the US deal with at least some level of financial insecurity. I understand the temptation to think you have found something that will fix that for you.
I've also never forgotten something I read years ago. A study measured people's happiness at different income levels. Everyone was pretty close to the same, but one thing that was true across the board was that people in every single income group thought their lives would be perfect if they were in the next group up. So the people who were making $25K thought everything would be great at $35K, while the people at $35K though they'd be content at $45K.
It's just very, very human to want more money.
posted by FencingGal at 10:40 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
It’s not low-income people who fall victim to online frauds, Vladeck said—they don’t have the thousands of dollars needed to pay scammers in the first place.
As ever, it depends on which scam and what you mean by 'low-income.' Drop-shipping has a relatively high cost of entry compared to some other passive income strategies, so it's a way of targeting people who are known to have at least some money to lose. Kind of like stock or real estate investment system scams, but at a somewhat lower stratum.
Also worth noting that the higher the stratum the content is marketed to, the better the monetization for even the free content, due to the demographics reached by running ads against it. Thus the proliferation of YouTube investment channels.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:43 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
As ever, it depends on which scam and what you mean by 'low-income.' Drop-shipping has a relatively high cost of entry compared to some other passive income strategies, so it's a way of targeting people who are known to have at least some money to lose. Kind of like stock or real estate investment system scams, but at a somewhat lower stratum.
Also worth noting that the higher the stratum the content is marketed to, the better the monetization for even the free content, due to the demographics reached by running ads against it. Thus the proliferation of YouTube investment channels.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:43 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
As ever, it depends on which scam and what you mean by 'low-income.'
Oh yes, there are tons of online frauds that do target low-income people. It's so inexpensive to work the machinery of many frauds these days that you can get a very low return on your average attempted fraud and still make out like a bandit. This one here is just aimed at a different group.
posted by praemunire at 10:49 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh yes, there are tons of online frauds that do target low-income people. It's so inexpensive to work the machinery of many frauds these days that you can get a very low return on your average attempted fraud and still make out like a bandit. This one here is just aimed at a different group.
posted by praemunire at 10:49 AM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Really interesting.
This sure seems like a case where there are no innocent victims, though. Making money by ripping off both Chinese vendors and western consumers while producing nothing of values is also a scam. Scamming scammers isn't very polite. But, there are far worse crimes. It's the contemporary counterfeiting box scam.
Our global economy is absurd. We need to redistribute wealth, get rid of meaningless jobs, create a universal guaranteed income, and provide decent health and welfare services, so that people aren't compelled to do this shit. But, everyone in this article is clearly a greedy jerk. Especially Amazon, but also the marks. I make passive money (from retirement index funds), so I'm not innocent either. But, it's pretty hard to feel sympathy for these people. Not because they're dumb, but because they're trying to take advantage of others.
posted by eotvos at 10:51 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
This sure seems like a case where there are no innocent victims, though. Making money by ripping off both Chinese vendors and western consumers while producing nothing of values is also a scam. Scamming scammers isn't very polite. But, there are far worse crimes. It's the contemporary counterfeiting box scam.
Our global economy is absurd. We need to redistribute wealth, get rid of meaningless jobs, create a universal guaranteed income, and provide decent health and welfare services, so that people aren't compelled to do this shit. But, everyone in this article is clearly a greedy jerk. Especially Amazon, but also the marks. I make passive money (from retirement index funds), so I'm not innocent either. But, it's pretty hard to feel sympathy for these people. Not because they're dumb, but because they're trying to take advantage of others.
posted by eotvos at 10:51 AM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
And, yes, the first couple had $40K to put into the scam, so "struggling to make rent" must not mean impoverished. All the other people mentioned have middle-class (or better) occupations. The buy-in for this scheme is relatively high.
I have to admit, it's in part because I have had to spend a lot of time on scams directed at the genuinely struggling that I have less sympathy to give for people who decide to shoot the moon because they want a nicer apartment or a bigger truck. They may seem more sympathetic to their fellow middle-class-born-and-raised, though.
posted by praemunire at 10:54 AM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have to admit, it's in part because I have had to spend a lot of time on scams directed at the genuinely struggling that I have less sympathy to give for people who decide to shoot the moon because they want a nicer apartment or a bigger truck. They may seem more sympathetic to their fellow middle-class-born-and-raised, though.
posted by praemunire at 10:54 AM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
The deep pervasive belief that wealthy people earned their money / poor people just aren't trying hard enough is one of the drivers of this sort of scam. IE the hugely erroneous belief that effort equals result sets them up to think they can't fail. I think if we could educate middle class people that that isn't remotely the case and that luck plays the more important role they might be less susceptible to these sorts of scams.
widely understood people rent fake money for influencer videos by the day
Today I learned what should have been obvious.
but I could not afford to maintain a running BMW after the warranty ended.
One of the best auto buying decisions I ever made was not buying a used 10 year old 230 Kompressor when it was offered to me for a smokin price.
posted by Mitheral at 11:13 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
widely understood people rent fake money for influencer videos by the day
Today I learned what should have been obvious.
but I could not afford to maintain a running BMW after the warranty ended.
One of the best auto buying decisions I ever made was not buying a used 10 year old 230 Kompressor when it was offered to me for a smokin price.
posted by Mitheral at 11:13 AM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Haha I remember in the early 90s, when you just had to buy the #1 Collector's Edition Marvel comics as an investment that would pay for college or a house or whatever.
That's exactly what I thought of. Seems like there was a lot of that sort of "collector's edition" stuff in the 90s.
I've got a relative who bought a bunch of official (but I'm sure not original) animation cels from a Disney store in the 90s, thinking it was an investment. She was downsizing a few years ago and I found them boxed up and she said, "Oh, that's some of my investments; I kept them in storage so they would stay nice." I looked on ebay to see what they were worth....a bit less than she paid for them. They're now hanging up on her living room walls.
posted by msbrauer at 11:14 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
That's exactly what I thought of. Seems like there was a lot of that sort of "collector's edition" stuff in the 90s.
I've got a relative who bought a bunch of official (but I'm sure not original) animation cels from a Disney store in the 90s, thinking it was an investment. She was downsizing a few years ago and I found them boxed up and she said, "Oh, that's some of my investments; I kept them in storage so they would stay nice." I looked on ebay to see what they were worth....a bit less than she paid for them. They're now hanging up on her living room walls.
posted by msbrauer at 11:14 AM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
What's the market for a cheap wine decanter? People who are drinking fancy wine and like fancy accessories and fancy affectations probably don't want to buy a cheap decanter on Amazon. People who are buying cheaper wine are probably not decanting it.
I could be wrong, but it does not strike me as an item that's going to move in volume.
Yep! This is the kind of product that rises to the top of your spreadsheet when have market data for pricing, but not volume. This is how you scam market noobs in EVE Online (a computer game about accounting).
posted by ryanrs at 12:17 PM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
I could be wrong, but it does not strike me as an item that's going to move in volume.
Yep! This is the kind of product that rises to the top of your spreadsheet when have market data for pricing, but not volume. This is how you scam market noobs in EVE Online (a computer game about accounting).
posted by ryanrs at 12:17 PM on March 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
a smokin price
the fate of all turbos
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:28 PM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
the fate of all turbos
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:28 PM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Haha I remember in the early 90s, when you just had to buy the #1 Collector's Edition Marvel comics as an investment that would pay for college or a house or whatever.
Ohhhh, yes. The speculator boom that ate comics, or why Rob "Never Mind Feet, All Of His Character Anatomy Is Awful" Liefeld even had a job, never mind became a superstar.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:50 PM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Ohhhh, yes. The speculator boom that ate comics, or why Rob "Never Mind Feet, All Of His Character Anatomy Is Awful" Liefeld even had a job, never mind became a superstar.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:50 PM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Haha I remember in the early 90s, when you just had to buy the #1 Collector's Edition Marvel comics as an investment that would pay for college or a house or whatever.
That trend started a few years earlier with comics' black & white boom, which was farcical and tragic in about equal measure. The Marvel comics you're talking about came a little later, but targeted the same hopelessly misguided "investors". When the inevitable bust came, it nearly took the whole industry's retail network with it.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:51 PM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
That trend started a few years earlier with comics' black & white boom, which was farcical and tragic in about equal measure. The Marvel comics you're talking about came a little later, but targeted the same hopelessly misguided "investors". When the inevitable bust came, it nearly took the whole industry's retail network with it.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:51 PM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Haha I remember in the early 90s, when you just had to buy the #1 Collector's Edition Marvel comics as an investment that would pay for college or a house or whatever.
That was also around the time of the Beanie Baby boom. But maybe that's not over. eBay listings for the Princess Diana Bear range from $7.50 to $10,000 (I remember them running about $350 when they came out). And as sold items, it's about the same range. Maybe someone can explain that to me.
posted by FencingGal at 1:01 PM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
That was also around the time of the Beanie Baby boom. But maybe that's not over. eBay listings for the Princess Diana Bear range from $7.50 to $10,000 (I remember them running about $350 when they came out). And as sold items, it's about the same range. Maybe someone can explain that to me.
posted by FencingGal at 1:01 PM on March 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
That was also around the time of the Beanie Baby boom. But maybe that's not over. eBay listings for the Princess Diana Bear range from $7.50 to $10,000 (I remember them running about $350 when they came out). And as sold items, it's about the same range. Maybe someone can explain that to me.
Could be fake sales - 'selling' to an alternate email address (or a friend or family member) to create an impression of a market demand at $10,000 so that when you actually try to sell yours for $5,000 it looks like a bargain. Same thing that I suspect is driving about 90% of NFT sales.
posted by matcha action at 1:47 PM on March 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
Could be fake sales - 'selling' to an alternate email address (or a friend or family member) to create an impression of a market demand at $10,000 so that when you actually try to sell yours for $5,000 it looks like a bargain. Same thing that I suspect is driving about 90% of NFT sales.
posted by matcha action at 1:47 PM on March 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
Very disappointed that the title of the piece wasn't "Fascinating Amazon Sellers Article About Schadenfeude Alana Semuels Atlantic The Atlantic Atlantic Monthly Feature Reporting 2000 Words Longform Hate Read Best January 2019 Feature Article For Amusement and Warning".
posted by wnissen at 4:13 PM on March 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by wnissen at 4:13 PM on March 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
In the YT and FB/Insta world of passive income scams beyond Amazon storefronts, the catchphrase is "fake gurus." Of which Tony Robbins might have been the prototype (munecat video essay, pt.s 1 and 2).
Biaheza, a lifestyle influencer and something of a shake-and-bake entrepreneurial guru himself skewers his own niche for content with "I Created a Fake Guru Scam".
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:53 PM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Biaheza, a lifestyle influencer and something of a shake-and-bake entrepreneurial guru himself skewers his own niche for content with "I Created a Fake Guru Scam".
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:53 PM on March 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
That trend started a few years earlier with comics' black & white boom, which was farcical and tragic in about equal measure.
Thank you for providing a name for something I experienced ground-level in my early years obsessing about comics, and that produced stuff which was arguably crap, but that I loved anyway. Being young and dumb. I hadn't thought much about it since.
Still, those TMNT rip-offs helped open the door to comics for me - which thankfully I have largely now closed, save for graphic novels from the library because, as noted above, I'm lazy and want to work as little as possible.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:53 PM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Thank you for providing a name for something I experienced ground-level in my early years obsessing about comics, and that produced stuff which was arguably crap, but that I loved anyway. Being young and dumb. I hadn't thought much about it since.
Still, those TMNT rip-offs helped open the door to comics for me - which thankfully I have largely now closed, save for graphic novels from the library because, as noted above, I'm lazy and want to work as little as possible.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:53 PM on March 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Brian David Gilbert: Earn $20k EVERY MONTH by being your own boss
posted by kaibutsu at 5:01 PM on March 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 5:01 PM on March 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
I know that some people just aren't satisfied with the idea of buying a "starter home" when they think something better is just outside their grasp if only they do … whatever.
um. there are no starter homes. they do not build them anymore.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:12 PM on March 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
um. there are no starter homes. they do not build them anymore.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:12 PM on March 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
I suppose if you want to keep your scam on, targeting middle-class people with some money is preferable to bankrupting people. The latter tends to draw a lot of attention, then eventually news, and law enforcement. And it's a lot more work to get their money.
posted by meowzilla at 5:42 PM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 5:42 PM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think there were arbitrage opportunities on Amazon, Ebay, and Etsy 5-10 years ago, but those Chinese suppliers cut out the middlemen quite some time ago. I think western consumers got savvy to it and started buying straight from Chinese stores as well.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 6:54 PM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by forbiddencabinet at 6:54 PM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't think scammers target greed... I think they go after a much deeper and more poignant vulnerability, hope. Most people indeed could use a little bit more money, if for nothing else to have a better buffer against life's cruelties, or make their children's lives a little bit better.
For the first time in my life, I'm making what sounds like decent money... (I mean, for relatively poor people, Significantly less than six figures) and it's a odd concept to have money in my bank account. Things like going to the museum or a big concert seem reasonable instead of a carefully budgeted Event to be done once or twice a year, though I am still going to compare it to how much of a proportion it is to my monthly rent.
Oh, Boggs died? So.... an NFT by him would be proof of the afterlife.... Is that what they are for? I don't think so, but don't know no.
posted by Jacen at 7:29 PM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
For the first time in my life, I'm making what sounds like decent money... (I mean, for relatively poor people, Significantly less than six figures) and it's a odd concept to have money in my bank account. Things like going to the museum or a big concert seem reasonable instead of a carefully budgeted Event to be done once or twice a year, though I am still going to compare it to how much of a proportion it is to my monthly rent.
Oh, Boggs died? So.... an NFT by him would be proof of the afterlife.... Is that what they are for? I don't think so, but don't know no.
posted by Jacen at 7:29 PM on March 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Amazon captures nearly half of all online retail spending in the United States, and more than half of its sales come from third-party sellers. It’s where America shops online. That's pretty amazing. And part of the reality is that there are a lot of retailers who have closed because of Amazon. Lots of small and large companies in exchange for a behemoth that pays low wages to most of its workers, and treats employees as a commodity.
I feel really bad for the people who lost life savings and liquidated retirement funds. Of course they're chasing easy money; in so many jobs, you just barely get by. Wealth is the standard by which we are measured, and as the wealthiest aggregate wealth, people on the bottom get squeezed out. Medium-income people can't buy homes because housing is being bought up by the wealthy, in the form of real estate trusts that are managed solely for profit. It's not just buying a house; where I live there's a severe shortage of rentals at any kind of manageable rent.
posted by theora55 at 8:24 PM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel really bad for the people who lost life savings and liquidated retirement funds. Of course they're chasing easy money; in so many jobs, you just barely get by. Wealth is the standard by which we are measured, and as the wealthiest aggregate wealth, people on the bottom get squeezed out. Medium-income people can't buy homes because housing is being bought up by the wealthy, in the form of real estate trusts that are managed solely for profit. It's not just buying a house; where I live there's a severe shortage of rentals at any kind of manageable rent.
posted by theora55 at 8:24 PM on March 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
um. there are no starter homes. they do not build them anymore.
In many places it's literally illegal to build small homes that would have been totally normal 40 or 50 years ago. Sorry, 1800 square foot minimum. And even if you could, you get bit by minimum lot sizes. And yeah, you might be able to get a variance past the zoning board for a subdivision full of them, but still not anywhere near enough to meet demand.
posted by wierdo at 10:05 PM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
In many places it's literally illegal to build small homes that would have been totally normal 40 or 50 years ago. Sorry, 1800 square foot minimum. And even if you could, you get bit by minimum lot sizes. And yeah, you might be able to get a variance past the zoning board for a subdivision full of them, but still not anywhere near enough to meet demand.
posted by wierdo at 10:05 PM on March 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Sourcing cheap products from China doesn't work because there's Wish and Aliexpress. The Amazon FBA (fulfilled by Amazon) fees will eat you alive unless you have enough margin to absorb it, and most items from China do NOT nowadays due to competition.
What make money, however, require a bit of money to get started, and require a significant investment of time... and be at the right place. It's NOT for everyone.
Lost Cargo Auctions, where you basically buy stuff "lost" by shippers (UPS, Fedex, etc.) or declared lost (truck had an accident, etc.) They are sent to liquidators, and you're supposed to bid on a pallet with just one photo, with no idea how deep's the stuff or the overall value. AND you need to live near one of those places because having that stuff shipped to you is will likely double the cost. Then you'll spend a couple days sorting through the pile of stuff into donate/trash, keep for self, or auction/ebay. THEN there's the listing fees. You also need a LOT of storage space at home and a sorting system so you know what to package and ship when the order comes. But in general you should double or triple your money spent on the pallet itself, if not more, but the question is do you have the time and/or storage space and the discipline to run an eBay business? You need anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand to afford one of these pallets, and you need a vehicle to carry the stuff back to your lair. The rest is up to you.
If you can find a similar source of cheap items, like TSA confiscated items, thrift store dumps, and you actually get a good value, and the source periodically resupplies, then it is possible to make a living from it. But as you note, there are a TON of ifs.
You can do similar things by shopping local thrift stores and finding gently used items but those lost cargo auctions are like unpacking mystery boxes.
I personally don't like those "returned merchandise auctions" as they are far more risky, IMHO. People returned the stuff for a reason. While some may be "like new", often, the stuff's used, dirty, broken... or worse.
ANOTHER possibility is to periodically run through all the local major retailers (Walmart, Target, Ross, etc.) and try to locate stuff put on clearance, and if they are low enough flip them on Amazon (i.e. arbitrage) but you need a reseller account and probably subscription to BrickSeek and some sort price and rank tracking services to ensure what you plan to flip actually sells often enough or just ties up your capital. But prices would have to be ridiculously low to be worth flipping on Amazon due to, again, Amazon FBA fees.
But there *are* ways to make money. You need to be at the right place though.
posted by kschang at 2:40 AM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
What make money, however, require a bit of money to get started, and require a significant investment of time... and be at the right place. It's NOT for everyone.
Lost Cargo Auctions, where you basically buy stuff "lost" by shippers (UPS, Fedex, etc.) or declared lost (truck had an accident, etc.) They are sent to liquidators, and you're supposed to bid on a pallet with just one photo, with no idea how deep's the stuff or the overall value. AND you need to live near one of those places because having that stuff shipped to you is will likely double the cost. Then you'll spend a couple days sorting through the pile of stuff into donate/trash, keep for self, or auction/ebay. THEN there's the listing fees. You also need a LOT of storage space at home and a sorting system so you know what to package and ship when the order comes. But in general you should double or triple your money spent on the pallet itself, if not more, but the question is do you have the time and/or storage space and the discipline to run an eBay business? You need anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand to afford one of these pallets, and you need a vehicle to carry the stuff back to your lair. The rest is up to you.
If you can find a similar source of cheap items, like TSA confiscated items, thrift store dumps, and you actually get a good value, and the source periodically resupplies, then it is possible to make a living from it. But as you note, there are a TON of ifs.
You can do similar things by shopping local thrift stores and finding gently used items but those lost cargo auctions are like unpacking mystery boxes.
I personally don't like those "returned merchandise auctions" as they are far more risky, IMHO. People returned the stuff for a reason. While some may be "like new", often, the stuff's used, dirty, broken... or worse.
ANOTHER possibility is to periodically run through all the local major retailers (Walmart, Target, Ross, etc.) and try to locate stuff put on clearance, and if they are low enough flip them on Amazon (i.e. arbitrage) but you need a reseller account and probably subscription to BrickSeek and some sort price and rank tracking services to ensure what you plan to flip actually sells often enough or just ties up your capital. But prices would have to be ridiculously low to be worth flipping on Amazon due to, again, Amazon FBA fees.
But there *are* ways to make money. You need to be at the right place though.
posted by kschang at 2:40 AM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
kschang, those are for sure not *passive* income.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:55 AM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:55 AM on March 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Definitely not passive income. In case you are curious about an example of this world, NPR Planey Money recently did a story on people flipping returned goods.
posted by mmascolino at 6:22 AM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mmascolino at 6:22 AM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
In many places it's literally illegal to build small homes that would have been totally normal 40 or 50 years ago. Sorry, 1800 square foot minimum.
I'd be interested in a citation for this. Are you sure you are not confusing private organizations like HOAs with public ones like zoning boards?
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 6:28 AM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'd be interested in a citation for this. Are you sure you are not confusing private organizations like HOAs with public ones like zoning boards?
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 6:28 AM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh hey, without mentioning any names or discussing business methods, I used to fill those pallets for removal to whatever shipping or auctioning the industry used. It was basically a six foot by six foot collection of stuff, with very little rhyme or reason. Occasionally we'd dump high value items in, but much more frequently it would be 80% dog clothes, just passed holiday decorations, and cell phone cases and watch bands. The medium value items would typically be stuff like packs of garbage bags, middling cookware, and... Well, really, it was so, so many pet clothes and watch straps I can't even think. Not exactly a business I'd want to get in, sorting through pallets and pallets of stuff. There's money there, yes, but easy, definitely not.
posted by Jacen at 6:48 AM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 6:48 AM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'd be interested in a citation for this. Are you sure you are not confusing private organizations like HOAs with public ones like zoning boards?
Minimums for house and lot sizes are set by zoning in many places (though sometimes the minimums are quite small, based on the sanitary code, I think). I suspect the more extreme examples that people focus on are more often HOA-related, though, versus the minimums set at the city or county level which tend to be more moderate, but still often excluding tiny houses, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:59 AM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Minimums for house and lot sizes are set by zoning in many places (though sometimes the minimums are quite small, based on the sanitary code, I think). I suspect the more extreme examples that people focus on are more often HOA-related, though, versus the minimums set at the city or county level which tend to be more moderate, but still often excluding tiny houses, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:59 AM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I suspect the more extreme examples that people focus on are more often HOA-related, though, versus the minimums set at the city or county level which tend to be more moderate, but still often excluding tiny houses, for example.
No, that's wrong. HOAs are defined after subdivsions have already been designed and platted according to city zoning rules. The city rules come first, and obviously it depends on the city, but they often require setbacks, sideyards, parking requirements, and most cities have relatively large minimum lot sizes to meet the other requirements.
Also, they do still build small starter homes, but they are attached townhomes now, not stand-alone 1000 sq ft single family with a backyard like the old days. Of course they don't build a lot of them, because they don't actually build a lot of any kind of home.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:14 AM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
No, that's wrong. HOAs are defined after subdivsions have already been designed and platted according to city zoning rules. The city rules come first, and obviously it depends on the city, but they often require setbacks, sideyards, parking requirements, and most cities have relatively large minimum lot sizes to meet the other requirements.
Also, they do still build small starter homes, but they are attached townhomes now, not stand-alone 1000 sq ft single family with a backyard like the old days. Of course they don't build a lot of them, because they don't actually build a lot of any kind of home.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:14 AM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Some information collected here (though I'm not sure about the source):
Minimum House Size by State 2022
You'd have to drill down into localities to find requirements above minimums for habitability.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:20 AM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Minimum House Size by State 2022
You'd have to drill down into localities to find requirements above minimums for habitability.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:20 AM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
No, that's wrong. HOAs are defined after subdivsions have already been designed and platted according to city zoning rules. The city rules come first, and obviously it depends on the city, but they often require setbacks, sideyards, parking requirements, and most cities have relatively large minimum lot sizes to meet the other requirements.
Yes, definitely. Like you say, it is a layered approach -- states can set minimums, then counties and municipalities can set higher minimums, and then an HOA can establish yet more criteria. The lot sizes are likely determined well before the HOA exists, but the HOA can include criteria for house square footage and so on, and the developer may choose to go with larger lot sizes than the minimums set by zoning as part of that.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:07 AM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes, definitely. Like you say, it is a layered approach -- states can set minimums, then counties and municipalities can set higher minimums, and then an HOA can establish yet more criteria. The lot sizes are likely determined well before the HOA exists, but the HOA can include criteria for house square footage and so on, and the developer may choose to go with larger lot sizes than the minimums set by zoning as part of that.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:07 AM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
@Nancy Leibinowitz / "Definitely not passive income"... that's why I wrote:
"require a bit of money to get started, and require a significant investment of time... and be at the right place. It's NOT for everyone."
It is definitely NOT passive.
The only true passive way to make money are 1) with money, such as investments, and 2) with property, same idea, and 3) with intellectual property, such as content people willing to license, buy, or otherwise pay for in one way or another. But most content creators keep on creating content, so it's not passive either.
Regarding "small house", Steve Lehto just did a video on this.
posted by kschang at 10:54 AM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
"require a bit of money to get started, and require a significant investment of time... and be at the right place. It's NOT for everyone."
It is definitely NOT passive.
The only true passive way to make money are 1) with money, such as investments, and 2) with property, same idea, and 3) with intellectual property, such as content people willing to license, buy, or otherwise pay for in one way or another. But most content creators keep on creating content, so it's not passive either.
Regarding "small house", Steve Lehto just did a video on this.
posted by kschang at 10:54 AM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
$ 1 Million Dollars - Prop Money (Fake)
Somebody needs to sell an NFT of that. Then maybe capitalism will collapse in on itself like some kind of monetary black hole.
posted by mikeand1 at 11:10 AM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Somebody needs to sell an NFT of that. Then maybe capitalism will collapse in on itself like some kind of monetary black hole.
posted by mikeand1 at 11:10 AM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
but I could not afford to maintain a running BMW after the warranty ended.
My purchase of a used (BMW era) MINI led to three teachable moments about engineering and ownership.
1. Engineers do what management asks.
a. Make a small car that's reliable? BMW 2002.
b. Make a small car that's reliable over a four year lease? MINI.
c. Make a gorgeous supercar hybrid powered by a Harbor Freight lawnmower engine and a box of white label eneloop rechargeables from IKEA? i8 (but I digress)
2. Good engineers do the job, great engineers do the job precisely.
A good engineer can nail 1a. Uses proven parts and more metal than strictly necessary, and the car runs forever. Some parts cost $1 instead of 30¢. Profit is a little lower at sale. Dealerships don't get as much out of warranty work. Profit to dealers over time is much lower.
A great engineer can nail 1b.
They sweat over how much of the water pump can be plastic, and where they can do without a heat shield between the turbocharger and nearby plastic parts (that turbo gets hot and heat causes plastic to fail). They do simulations and testing to make sure that over the expected number of heat cycles and hours of operation over four years, everything works, and they've saved a few dollars in parts while simultaneously avoided $1500 in warranty liability. Win win!
BMW MINI apparently has great engineers.
3. Finance. A cheap unreliable car is an expensive car. My not hard driven, beyond well maintained used MINI generated annual surprise engine repairs that were 10% of its value.
posted by zippy at 12:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
My purchase of a used (BMW era) MINI led to three teachable moments about engineering and ownership.
1. Engineers do what management asks.
a. Make a small car that's reliable? BMW 2002.
b. Make a small car that's reliable over a four year lease? MINI.
c. Make a gorgeous supercar hybrid powered by a Harbor Freight lawnmower engine and a box of white label eneloop rechargeables from IKEA? i8 (but I digress)
2. Good engineers do the job, great engineers do the job precisely.
A good engineer can nail 1a. Uses proven parts and more metal than strictly necessary, and the car runs forever. Some parts cost $1 instead of 30¢. Profit is a little lower at sale. Dealerships don't get as much out of warranty work. Profit to dealers over time is much lower.
A great engineer can nail 1b.
They sweat over how much of the water pump can be plastic, and where they can do without a heat shield between the turbocharger and nearby plastic parts (that turbo gets hot and heat causes plastic to fail). They do simulations and testing to make sure that over the expected number of heat cycles and hours of operation over four years, everything works, and they've saved a few dollars in parts while simultaneously avoided $1500 in warranty liability. Win win!
BMW MINI apparently has great engineers.
3. Finance. A cheap unreliable car is an expensive car. My not hard driven, beyond well maintained used MINI generated annual surprise engine repairs that were 10% of its value.
posted by zippy at 12:22 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
My city has an actual store that sells boxes of (returned? stolen? unclaimed? overstock? I don't know) Amazon packages for $5 each.
My wife goes occasionally, and got a big package of 20 pairs of plastic safety glasses, and 20 Dora the Explorer branded eyeglass cases. She has big dreams of becoming a reseller if she finds the right product.
The plastic safety glasses sell for around $3 a pair at Home Depot, so she has to undercut that price + shipping or running a pickup site out of our home. 20 pairs * $3 = $60 max revenue. All that work to make $55 dollars. Then the Dora glasses cases is a completely different audience, so all that work has to be done again.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:51 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
My wife goes occasionally, and got a big package of 20 pairs of plastic safety glasses, and 20 Dora the Explorer branded eyeglass cases. She has big dreams of becoming a reseller if she finds the right product.
The plastic safety glasses sell for around $3 a pair at Home Depot, so she has to undercut that price + shipping or running a pickup site out of our home. 20 pairs * $3 = $60 max revenue. All that work to make $55 dollars. Then the Dora glasses cases is a completely different audience, so all that work has to be done again.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:51 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am in an industry that is full of courses and classes, like the ones talked about in the article except that in most cases there is some real content there, and I've spent quite a bit of money post-undergrad ($500 here, $2400 there) on courses in the hope of increasing my employability/earning power. Now, most of these have actually been good investments for me, but I still feel like I'm buying something off the back of a truck and hoping for the best. (Yes I google for reviews.) And even where they've been very good investments for me, the return on investment is still very skewed to the person offering the course. For me, let's say best case scenario, a $500 investment increases my earning power by $5,000/year. Awesome, right? Terrific investment. For the person creating the course, if they sell 1000 of these - minus whatever cut Gumroad takes - they've made $500,000. So you have more and more people at whatever level of skill creating more and more courses - because that's where the money is, not actually doing the work you're teaching your students to do.
posted by matcha action at 8:28 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by matcha action at 8:28 PM on March 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
matcha action: The Gold Rush/Levis Conundrum.
posted by Chitownfats at 1:25 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Chitownfats at 1:25 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
My city has an actual store that sells boxes of (returned? stolen? unclaimed? overstock? I don't know) Amazon packages for $5 each.
So every box ion the store is $5 each and you choose them blind with no idea of each box's contents? Have I got that right?
Is it a sketchy pop-up place that looks like it could disappear overnight or something more permanent and respectable looking?
posted by Paul Slade at 1:34 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
So every box ion the store is $5 each and you choose them blind with no idea of each box's contents? Have I got that right?
Is it a sketchy pop-up place that looks like it could disappear overnight or something more permanent and respectable looking?
posted by Paul Slade at 1:34 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
@Paul Slade -- probably pretty permanent, lots of those videos on Youtube where people go to these places and pick over anything on the table, may or may not be sealed. It's just a warehouse for someone who needs to get rid of excess unsold inventory they can't flip on eBay or such and would probably go to the landfill or donated in a week as they need to get more inventory moved through their system.
Accordign to CNBC, liquidation services is a 644 BILLION per year business as of 2020... and you can imagine it's not slacking off due to COVID...
posted by kschang at 4:29 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Accordign to CNBC, liquidation services is a 644 BILLION per year business as of 2020... and you can imagine it's not slacking off due to COVID...
posted by kschang at 4:29 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
@Paul Slade -- it'd be something like this, I'd imagine:
https://treasure-hunt-liquidators.shoplightspeed.com/
posted by kschang at 4:39 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
https://treasure-hunt-liquidators.shoplightspeed.com/
posted by kschang at 4:39 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
The environmental waste is pretty mind-boggling. UPS & Fedex make a fair number of delivery errors, and Amazon, and most other online retailers, send a replacement. Returns get discarded. I can see from taking walks that Amazon and other retailer packaging is substantial. Individual delivery appears to use a lot more fossil fuel to get goods to consumers. Many of us bought more online so we could stay out of crowded stores during the pandemic. Once the habit has been formed, will we go back to stores?
posted by theora55 at 6:42 PM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 6:42 PM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
side question: So, Amazon's search is terrible on purpose, right? Drives me a little nutty. you specify a particular phone case, search a few pages, pick one. Then you find out they started showing cases for other phones because, Why? Shopping for clothing is really, really miserable. It should be easy to search for a corduroy skirt, size women's L, and get results. instead, you get the same item from 17 companies, plus corduroy shorts, denim mini-skirts, etc.
posted by theora55 at 6:47 PM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 6:47 PM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
The studies I've seen find that overall carbon footprint is actually lower for delivery than for traditional brick-and-mortar retail, at least in the US where the alternative for most people is going to the store in a car. (For example this paper from a group at MIT.) A few trucks making deliveries to fifty households use a lot less fuel than fifty cars going to the store, even if people optimize their shopping to minimize the number of car trips (which most people don’t).
The packaging waste is a problem though, yeah.
posted by mbrubeck at 7:16 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
The packaging waste is a problem though, yeah.
posted by mbrubeck at 7:16 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
@theora55 wrote:
But the liquidation business skyrocketed during the pandemic. HeavyDSparks have a YT Channel and their most recent venture was going to a buddy's liquidation auction warehouse and buy a couple pallets and see how much they can make from it. According to the said buddy, they used to get maybe 50 pallets a month, IIRC, but as the pandemic started they started getting more and more, and they're at 200+ pallets A WEEK currently. And obviously they're not the only liquidators around.
posted by kschang at 5:52 AM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
The environmental waste is pretty mind-boggling. UPS & Fedex make a fair number of delivery errors, and Amazon, and most other online retailers, send a replacement. Returns get discarded. I can see from taking walks that Amazon and other retailer packaging is substantial.It's believed that in 2021 about 20% of orders are returned. I think I read that on a site about the return merch biz. For smaller items Amazon doesn't even ask you to return it.
But the liquidation business skyrocketed during the pandemic. HeavyDSparks have a YT Channel and their most recent venture was going to a buddy's liquidation auction warehouse and buy a couple pallets and see how much they can make from it. According to the said buddy, they used to get maybe 50 pallets a month, IIRC, but as the pandemic started they started getting more and more, and they're at 200+ pallets A WEEK currently. And obviously they're not the only liquidators around.
posted by kschang at 5:52 AM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
So every box ion the store is $5 each and you choose them blind with no idea of each box's contents? Have I got that right?
It's a regular store in a stripmall, and you can open the boxes and see what is inside, but they are all packaged as bundles in plastic, which you cannot open. So you have to take all in a package. Or you could get lucky and get some Airpods for $5. It's first-come-first served, they have employees to prevent fights (! I've never seen anyone get angry but I've only been once), and new stuff comes on Friday morning, so that's when its crowded and crazy, like a black Friday in the olden times.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:58 AM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's a regular store in a stripmall, and you can open the boxes and see what is inside, but they are all packaged as bundles in plastic, which you cannot open. So you have to take all in a package. Or you could get lucky and get some Airpods for $5. It's first-come-first served, they have employees to prevent fights (! I've never seen anyone get angry but I've only been once), and new stuff comes on Friday morning, so that's when its crowded and crazy, like a black Friday in the olden times.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:58 AM on March 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
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