That dog won't hunt
April 29, 2022 8:27 AM Subscribe
I don't know. Determining precise breed makeup via genetic, like, ratio is already kind of nebulous. While it's a large sample size, it seems like by allowing owners to report on their own dog's behavior leaves the door wide open to bias.
posted by ShawnStruck at 8:38 AM on April 29, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by ShawnStruck at 8:38 AM on April 29, 2022 [15 favorites]
"The study, published in Science, looked at the genes of more than 2,000 dogs paired with 200,000 survey answers from dog owners about their pets’ behaviors."
Not that any pet owner has ever had a biased opinion on the attitudes and perceived dangerous behaviors of their own animals. That's never ever ever happened.
posted by neuracnu at 8:39 AM on April 29, 2022 [46 favorites]
Not that any pet owner has ever had a biased opinion on the attitudes and perceived dangerous behaviors of their own animals. That's never ever ever happened.
posted by neuracnu at 8:39 AM on April 29, 2022 [46 favorites]
I'm particularly interested in the study they linked to about the way a dog's morphology affects its behavior. Short-nosed dogs are more anxious, etc. Sadly the study appears to be paywalled and I can't find a free copy.
posted by suelac at 8:45 AM on April 29, 2022
posted by suelac at 8:45 AM on April 29, 2022
Yeah, I saw this yesterday and the survey method is an awful way of making such a strong declaration. We could pour anecdotal answers into this thread to prove one side or the other, and it’d be just as valid as the responses that were used as the basis of this survey.
So, since they’re the same, I’ll say the terrier I had growing up was independent as hell and loved to dig; my parent’s rescue Maltese, a breed designed to be lap dogs, begs to be on people’s laps when we’re sitting; my lab loves to swim and would do it until he exhausts himself and drowns, if we let him; my retriever returns any object I throw with a proudly wagging tail.
Dogs are wonderful.
posted by glaucon at 8:47 AM on April 29, 2022 [16 favorites]
So, since they’re the same, I’ll say the terrier I had growing up was independent as hell and loved to dig; my parent’s rescue Maltese, a breed designed to be lap dogs, begs to be on people’s laps when we’re sitting; my lab loves to swim and would do it until he exhausts himself and drowns, if we let him; my retriever returns any object I throw with a proudly wagging tail.
Dogs are wonderful.
posted by glaucon at 8:47 AM on April 29, 2022 [16 favorites]
I would argue that genetics determine a dog’s tendencies, but it’s ultimate disposition is determined by training and and handling. A pittie might have body mass and energy to be a bulldozer, but they can be a lovable widdle bulldozer. Likewise, a chihuahua might be a tiny bundle of caffeinated nervous shakiness, but they are usually snarling demons from the pits of Hell.
However, a Labrador is always going to be dumb as a sack of hammers, but a happy, dumb sack of hammers, and who wouldn’t love that?
I would.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 8:48 AM on April 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
However, a Labrador is always going to be dumb as a sack of hammers, but a happy, dumb sack of hammers, and who wouldn’t love that?
I would.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 8:48 AM on April 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
I won't comment on the study itself but I have always wondered: people will say that, e.g. pit bulls are not aggressive. But we humans created them for exactly one purpose: to be aggressive. Are the breeders failures? Is it just the physicality of the dog that you breed for and then select for aggressiveness from among the puppies? And like, if they're not aggressive, why are they so universally valued as symbols of violence with the toxic masculinity crowd? Nothing seems to line up.
posted by klanawa at 8:54 AM on April 29, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 8:54 AM on April 29, 2022 [12 favorites]
I don't know. Border Collies and Australian Cattle Dogs are, in my experience, smart, strong-willed animals. They have to be in order to herd other animals that are a lot bigger than themselves. I'm unconvinced by this study.
posted by SPrintF at 9:09 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 9:09 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
but you can definitely have a Chihuahua that acts like a Great Dane, and you can have a Great Dane with the same personality as a Chihuahua.”
A Great Dane with the personality of a chihuahua would be terrifying actually. I have never met a chihuahua that was like, happy, well-adjusted & not completely terrified of everything & everyone. I'm sure they exist but. A Great Dane going around growling & showing teeth at everyone would be, not so good for me. I have kind of like a "phobia in reserve" about dogs, individual dogs can be fine, but my phobia is waiting just off stage just in case.
Also this study reminds me when I was little I saw our family dog sniffing around in the yard & I was like what's she doing? "She's sniffing" my family said. I was like, but in Lady & the Tramp only bloodhounds can smell things. No, that was just a movie, all dogs can smell. Oh, ok.
posted by bleep at 9:11 AM on April 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
A Great Dane with the personality of a chihuahua would be terrifying actually. I have never met a chihuahua that was like, happy, well-adjusted & not completely terrified of everything & everyone. I'm sure they exist but. A Great Dane going around growling & showing teeth at everyone would be, not so good for me. I have kind of like a "phobia in reserve" about dogs, individual dogs can be fine, but my phobia is waiting just off stage just in case.
Also this study reminds me when I was little I saw our family dog sniffing around in the yard & I was like what's she doing? "She's sniffing" my family said. I was like, but in Lady & the Tramp only bloodhounds can smell things. No, that was just a movie, all dogs can smell. Oh, ok.
posted by bleep at 9:11 AM on April 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
But then I remember that breeds, like races, are social constructs and that the heritability of certain superficial characteristics through family lines don't necessarily reflect anything about their supposed nature.
posted by klanawa at 9:15 AM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 9:15 AM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
Reminded of how I read recently that a cat's coat color does not speak to its temperament. How will we know how to pick out dumb, sweet cats if they aren't labeled orange or black?
Anyway, I don't know about this study. What I do know is that my dachshund is the dachshundest. Also, as someone who has always had small dogs -- some sweet to everyone, some cranky to strangers -- I think that, despite what people say, they do know that they are small. That's why you often have to make positive effort to socialize them in order to keep them as naturally mellow as a big dog can be. They need to know that the world does not pose a threat.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:24 AM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
Anyway, I don't know about this study. What I do know is that my dachshund is the dachshundest. Also, as someone who has always had small dogs -- some sweet to everyone, some cranky to strangers -- I think that, despite what people say, they do know that they are small. That's why you often have to make positive effort to socialize them in order to keep them as naturally mellow as a big dog can be. They need to know that the world does not pose a threat.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:24 AM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
Only in the past 200 years have people begun selecting specific physical traits to produce dogs that belong to our modern breed categories.
Greyhounds and their precursor sight-hounds have existed for millennia.
posted by explosion at 9:31 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
Greyhounds and their precursor sight-hounds have existed for millennia.
posted by explosion at 9:31 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
Pit bulls (at least APBT) have been bred to be friendly with humans and aggressive with dogs and prey animals - it's in their official breed standard. So it's hardly surprising that owners rate their dogs as friendly since they're usually excellent with their own humans. A lot of people don't realize that human-directed aggression and dog-directed aggression are very different, usually have different causes and don't necessarily come together in the same dog (though they certainly can). That said, prey- or dog-directed aggression can lead to human aggression in certain cases eg when breaking up a dog fight or when the dog starts to think tiny humans are prey, which is probably where a lot of the confusion comes from.
Besides the large problems in judging based on owners' opinions of their dogs, the headline is iffy because the study actually found that many/most commonly known breed traits are real and caused by genetics. They just also looked at a bunch of other "personality" traits and found that shockingly, for example, breed didn't influence a dog circling before it poops (I am not making that example up). Whereas traits that dog breeds have been deliberately bred for, again shockingly, were in fact more common in those breeds. And many of those traits make a huge difference in a pet home so the way this is presented in the article is kinda harmful. It's not "all in how you raise them", at all. For example spitz, gundogs and livestock guardians are all very different and if you expect your great pyrenees or husky to act like a lab just because you raised it the same way, you'll be very disappointed and the dog is likely going to suffer too.
posted by randomnity at 9:35 AM on April 29, 2022 [16 favorites]
Besides the large problems in judging based on owners' opinions of their dogs, the headline is iffy because the study actually found that many/most commonly known breed traits are real and caused by genetics. They just also looked at a bunch of other "personality" traits and found that shockingly, for example, breed didn't influence a dog circling before it poops (I am not making that example up). Whereas traits that dog breeds have been deliberately bred for, again shockingly, were in fact more common in those breeds. And many of those traits make a huge difference in a pet home so the way this is presented in the article is kinda harmful. It's not "all in how you raise them", at all. For example spitz, gundogs and livestock guardians are all very different and if you expect your great pyrenees or husky to act like a lab just because you raised it the same way, you'll be very disappointed and the dog is likely going to suffer too.
posted by randomnity at 9:35 AM on April 29, 2022 [16 favorites]
I own two greyhounds, both ex-racers.
They're selectively bred for 2 purposes, run fast in a circle, and maybe not bite people so much. As such, they're almost never bred before 3 years old. When they've had time to show those traits. But, they're also raised more or less as livestock, over socialized with other dogs and with people, they're handled frequently. They're (generally) well fed, sheltered, and allowed to mature to what most non-domesticated animals would seem like heaven. The selective breeding makes them really good at one thing, without regard to many other things that would normally be selected for in the wild, or by other breeders in a more 'pet' centric manner (e.g. they're kind of dumb, they're not all that interested in pleasing people). But, because they're not *forced* to race, a lot of greyhound puppies are 'retired' before they ever race. If it was genetics that made them lust for the chase, the pressures of selective breeding would mean the washout rate should be approaching zero. It's just not. A *lot* of them just don't care about chasing, or they can't handle the crowding.
I think the early puppyhood of greyhounds is the greatest signifier of how little genetics matter to personality. (PS: It's still livestock. And as such, sometimes, for some people, in some situations it's financially feasible to run an operation in ways that feel gross to people who see them as pets. Like anything capitalistic, the moral side of Other People's calculus is often unpalatable, or even unexcusable)
posted by DigDoug at 9:38 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
They're selectively bred for 2 purposes, run fast in a circle, and maybe not bite people so much. As such, they're almost never bred before 3 years old. When they've had time to show those traits. But, they're also raised more or less as livestock, over socialized with other dogs and with people, they're handled frequently. They're (generally) well fed, sheltered, and allowed to mature to what most non-domesticated animals would seem like heaven. The selective breeding makes them really good at one thing, without regard to many other things that would normally be selected for in the wild, or by other breeders in a more 'pet' centric manner (e.g. they're kind of dumb, they're not all that interested in pleasing people). But, because they're not *forced* to race, a lot of greyhound puppies are 'retired' before they ever race. If it was genetics that made them lust for the chase, the pressures of selective breeding would mean the washout rate should be approaching zero. It's just not. A *lot* of them just don't care about chasing, or they can't handle the crowding.
I think the early puppyhood of greyhounds is the greatest signifier of how little genetics matter to personality. (PS: It's still livestock. And as such, sometimes, for some people, in some situations it's financially feasible to run an operation in ways that feel gross to people who see them as pets. Like anything capitalistic, the moral side of Other People's calculus is often unpalatable, or even unexcusable)
posted by DigDoug at 9:38 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
breeds, like races, are social constructs
I do not like equating human races and dog breeds, it makes me uncomfortable.
don't necessarily reflect anything about their supposed nature
I am far from a dog expert but I have never seen chihuahuas herding sheep, pugs pulling sleds, newfoundlands chasing down rabbits, or border collies napping on couches all day long.
Edit: I stand corrected on the pugs, at least.
posted by rustybullrake at 9:38 AM on April 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
I do not like equating human races and dog breeds, it makes me uncomfortable.
don't necessarily reflect anything about their supposed nature
I am far from a dog expert but I have never seen chihuahuas herding sheep, pugs pulling sleds, newfoundlands chasing down rabbits, or border collies napping on couches all day long.
Edit: I stand corrected on the pugs, at least.
posted by rustybullrake at 9:38 AM on April 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Presumably chihuachuas would need really small sheep for herding. I'd like to see that.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:40 AM on April 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:40 AM on April 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
e.g. pit bulls are not aggressive. But we humans created them for exactly one purpose: to be aggressive. Are the breeders failures? Is it just the physicality of the dog that you breed for and then select for aggressiveness from among the puppies? And like, if they're not aggressive, why are they so universally valued as symbols of violence with the toxic masculinity crowd?
They were bred for strong jaws, and tight musculature, much like greyhounds were bred for speed.
A pittie that wants to run as fast as it can is going to be a silly funny thing, and a greyhound that wants to fight is going to get hurt (because they have thin skin and relatively weak bite).
A lot of it is confirmation bias and training. Someone who wants to train up an aggressive dog is going to choose a pittie, it doesn't mean that pitties are naturally inclined to aggression. Similar to as DigDoug pointed out above, greyhounds aren't naturally inclined to racing so much as they're trained for it.
posted by explosion at 9:41 AM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
They were bred for strong jaws, and tight musculature, much like greyhounds were bred for speed.
A pittie that wants to run as fast as it can is going to be a silly funny thing, and a greyhound that wants to fight is going to get hurt (because they have thin skin and relatively weak bite).
A lot of it is confirmation bias and training. Someone who wants to train up an aggressive dog is going to choose a pittie, it doesn't mean that pitties are naturally inclined to aggression. Similar to as DigDoug pointed out above, greyhounds aren't naturally inclined to racing so much as they're trained for it.
posted by explosion at 9:41 AM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
But then I remember that breeds, like races, are social constructs and that the heritability of certain superficial characteristics through family lines don't necessarily reflect anything about their supposed nature.
Well, except that dog breeds are nominally explicitly selected for behavior. But I think one suggestion here is that breeds as we know them now are really selected for appearance more than anything else.
posted by atoxyl at 9:42 AM on April 29, 2022
Well, except that dog breeds are nominally explicitly selected for behavior. But I think one suggestion here is that breeds as we know them now are really selected for appearance more than anything else.
posted by atoxyl at 9:42 AM on April 29, 2022
Might be helpful to look at the actual paper.
posted by atoxyl at 9:43 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 9:43 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
No true Scottish Terrier
posted by Iridic at 9:47 AM on April 29, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by Iridic at 9:47 AM on April 29, 2022 [27 favorites]
> Might be helpful to look at the actual paper.
> posted by atoxyl at 12:43 PM on April 29 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
Figure 4 is gonna sell a lot of Belgian Malinois.
posted by DigDoug at 9:50 AM on April 29, 2022
> posted by atoxyl at 12:43 PM on April 29 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]
Figure 4 is gonna sell a lot of Belgian Malinois.
posted by DigDoug at 9:50 AM on April 29, 2022
When my friend and I would take her herding dog (I’ve forgotten the exact breed) to the off-leash dog park, we’d start to drift apart as we walked and the dog would be obsessive about trying to herd us back together.
posted by sjswitzer at 9:51 AM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 9:51 AM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
On the TODAY show this morning they talked about this article. They said that 9% of behavior is linked to genetics, and the rest is driven by age, sex, and environment.
So I think many comments, above, about traits like herding are probably among the 9%. And my rescue terrier from Texas acquired his atrocious manners and distrust of trucks -- among the 91% of behaviors -- while living on the street, but his love of chasing stuffed squirrels (and shaking the shit out of them) is likely innate.
(That broadcast featured half a dozen dogs on leashes, all of whom had other plans for the morning, apart from a single daschhund, who was delighted to remain in one of the hosts's arms being stroked and cuddled.)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:52 AM on April 29, 2022
So I think many comments, above, about traits like herding are probably among the 9%. And my rescue terrier from Texas acquired his atrocious manners and distrust of trucks -- among the 91% of behaviors -- while living on the street, but his love of chasing stuffed squirrels (and shaking the shit out of them) is likely innate.
(That broadcast featured half a dozen dogs on leashes, all of whom had other plans for the morning, apart from a single daschhund, who was delighted to remain in one of the hosts's arms being stroked and cuddled.)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:52 AM on April 29, 2022
I won't comment on the study itself but I have always wondered: people will say that, e.g. pit bulls are not aggressive. But we humans created them for exactly one purpose: to be aggressive.
In the words of Luke Skywalker: "Amazing. Every part of what you just said is wrong."
Firstly: "Pit bull" isn't even a breed. It's not recognized as such by the AKC; it's more of a description of a group of dogs that are similar and had similar roles (the Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Bulldog). And even more confusingly, people who refer to a dog as a "pit bull" based on looks alone - even though the dog they're talking about may not have any DNA from any of the aforementioned breeds.
Secondly: they were not bred to be "aggressive". They were bred to be strong, agile, and vigilant - traits which could be applied to many purposes. For many years the larger purposes in question were different kinds of quasi-legal dog-vs.-animal fights (much like cock fighting today - or dog fighting, in fact). In fact, the name "pit bull" comes from the fact that these were the dogs you used in a "Pit" to fight rats. And that's when the terrier DNA got introduced into the bulldog bloodline - you wanted the agility of a terrier and the strength of a bulldog.
But when it came to aggression - in the days of breeding them for "sports" like this, if one of the dogs bit a human, they were actually REMOVED from breeding as being TOO aggressive. You wanted a dog that would be smart enough to figure out they should only bite rats, not bite anyone indiscriminately; otherwise the dog might bite the referee and you'd be disqualified. So pure aggression was bred out of pit bulls - instead, breeders favored dogs who were friendly towards people, and who were especially sensitive to what their handlers wanted and especially motivated to give their handlers what they wanted.
And that is what you're seeing when you say that pit bulls were "bred for the purpose of aggression". You're seeing a handler who wants a mean dog, and a dog who thinks their handler hung the stars and who is thinking "well, dad wants me to be a big meanie, so I will be a big meanie. You got it." If you took that exact same dog and put it in a family with some little kids who liked to dress it up in silly hats and feather boas, you'd get a big cuddly slobbery dog who is thinking "okay, I love these little punks, and they want me to wear bunny ears so I'm on board with it!"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:03 AM on April 29, 2022 [17 favorites]
In the words of Luke Skywalker: "Amazing. Every part of what you just said is wrong."
Firstly: "Pit bull" isn't even a breed. It's not recognized as such by the AKC; it's more of a description of a group of dogs that are similar and had similar roles (the Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Bulldog). And even more confusingly, people who refer to a dog as a "pit bull" based on looks alone - even though the dog they're talking about may not have any DNA from any of the aforementioned breeds.
Secondly: they were not bred to be "aggressive". They were bred to be strong, agile, and vigilant - traits which could be applied to many purposes. For many years the larger purposes in question were different kinds of quasi-legal dog-vs.-animal fights (much like cock fighting today - or dog fighting, in fact). In fact, the name "pit bull" comes from the fact that these were the dogs you used in a "Pit" to fight rats. And that's when the terrier DNA got introduced into the bulldog bloodline - you wanted the agility of a terrier and the strength of a bulldog.
But when it came to aggression - in the days of breeding them for "sports" like this, if one of the dogs bit a human, they were actually REMOVED from breeding as being TOO aggressive. You wanted a dog that would be smart enough to figure out they should only bite rats, not bite anyone indiscriminately; otherwise the dog might bite the referee and you'd be disqualified. So pure aggression was bred out of pit bulls - instead, breeders favored dogs who were friendly towards people, and who were especially sensitive to what their handlers wanted and especially motivated to give their handlers what they wanted.
And that is what you're seeing when you say that pit bulls were "bred for the purpose of aggression". You're seeing a handler who wants a mean dog, and a dog who thinks their handler hung the stars and who is thinking "well, dad wants me to be a big meanie, so I will be a big meanie. You got it." If you took that exact same dog and put it in a family with some little kids who liked to dress it up in silly hats and feather boas, you'd get a big cuddly slobbery dog who is thinking "okay, I love these little punks, and they want me to wear bunny ears so I'm on board with it!"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:03 AM on April 29, 2022 [17 favorites]
I hit the paywall so I 'm sharing the non-paywalled version of the article.
Not a dog person. Ignorant of the behavior and psychology of dogs but I need to inform myself, given that dog ownership is somewhere in my family's future. This seems a good place to start.
posted by majick at 10:05 AM on April 29, 2022
Not a dog person. Ignorant of the behavior and psychology of dogs but I need to inform myself, given that dog ownership is somewhere in my family's future. This seems a good place to start.
posted by majick at 10:05 AM on April 29, 2022
>>Only in the past 200 years have people begun selecting specific physical traits to produce dogs that belong to our modern breed categories.
>Greyhounds and their precursor sight-hounds have existed for millennia.
That sentence jumped out at me, too. I am assuming it was a clumsy attempt to distinguish between the modern AKA/Westminster Dog Show breed categories which are a Victorian/post-Victorian project, and the millennia that people have spent breeding dogs for working functions as well as appearance and companionship. (I think it was linked here before, but I am reminded of this article about the thousands of years that people have specifically bred “really small dogs with short legs and they require a lot of attention and people are in love with them.")
posted by Dip Flash at 10:05 AM on April 29, 2022
>Greyhounds and their precursor sight-hounds have existed for millennia.
That sentence jumped out at me, too. I am assuming it was a clumsy attempt to distinguish between the modern AKA/Westminster Dog Show breed categories which are a Victorian/post-Victorian project, and the millennia that people have spent breeding dogs for working functions as well as appearance and companionship. (I think it was linked here before, but I am reminded of this article about the thousands of years that people have specifically bred “really small dogs with short legs and they require a lot of attention and people are in love with them.")
posted by Dip Flash at 10:05 AM on April 29, 2022
I do not like equating human races and dog breeds, it makes me uncomfortable.
I think it's fair to equate 'race' with 'breed' and I'm not overly precious about my status as a human to feel denigrated, personally, by the comparison. I'm not sure people are such a big deal to be perfectly honest. Call me a cur and I will thank you for it. The implied inferiority says more about you (not you specifically, not trying to be combative).
race and breed, may these words die one day
posted by elkevelvet at 10:06 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think it's fair to equate 'race' with 'breed' and I'm not overly precious about my status as a human to feel denigrated, personally, by the comparison. I'm not sure people are such a big deal to be perfectly honest. Call me a cur and I will thank you for it. The implied inferiority says more about you (not you specifically, not trying to be combative).
race and breed, may these words die one day
posted by elkevelvet at 10:06 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do not like equating human races and dog breeds, it makes me uncomfortable.
It made me uncomfortable to type it, to be frank. But I guess the point is, we're so used to making character judgements based on appearances, and we give ourselves permission to do it in certain contexts and not in others. We're all subject to confirmation biases but none of us actually knows, definitively, whether breed X has more or less of behavioural characteristic Y. We rely on science to give us a quantitative perspective on that but we (including myself) remain skeptical. Still, a lot of us seem to be perfectly comfortable making those judgements about dogs and (rightly) not about people.
To the people dumping on me for using the word "agressive": that's fine; it's indisputable that pit bulls (however you wish to categorize them) were bred to fight and I don't know what use a fighting dog would be if it were strong, or inclined to "latch," but not aggressive. There's clearly a political movement afoot to downplay the supposed aggressiveness of the breed(s) towards humans but I frankly don't trust its motives. Unsurprisingly, the apologetic framework around pit bulls -- which are disproportionately responsible for maulings -- reduces to dogs don't kill people, people kill people.
And yes, since I've linked a Time article, I now have to engage conspiracy-theorist mode and wonder whether the authors are using genetic determinism in dogs as a backdoor way to justify other kinds of genetic determinism.
Anyway, if the paragraphs above seem contradictory, I'm OK with that. I don't pretend to be an authority on questions that appear to have no definitive answers.
posted by klanawa at 10:27 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
It made me uncomfortable to type it, to be frank. But I guess the point is, we're so used to making character judgements based on appearances, and we give ourselves permission to do it in certain contexts and not in others. We're all subject to confirmation biases but none of us actually knows, definitively, whether breed X has more or less of behavioural characteristic Y. We rely on science to give us a quantitative perspective on that but we (including myself) remain skeptical. Still, a lot of us seem to be perfectly comfortable making those judgements about dogs and (rightly) not about people.
To the people dumping on me for using the word "agressive": that's fine; it's indisputable that pit bulls (however you wish to categorize them) were bred to fight and I don't know what use a fighting dog would be if it were strong, or inclined to "latch," but not aggressive. There's clearly a political movement afoot to downplay the supposed aggressiveness of the breed(s) towards humans but I frankly don't trust its motives. Unsurprisingly, the apologetic framework around pit bulls -- which are disproportionately responsible for maulings -- reduces to dogs don't kill people, people kill people.
And yes, since I've linked a Time article, I now have to engage conspiracy-theorist mode and wonder whether the authors are using genetic determinism in dogs as a backdoor way to justify other kinds of genetic determinism.
Anyway, if the paragraphs above seem contradictory, I'm OK with that. I don't pretend to be an authority on questions that appear to have no definitive answers.
posted by klanawa at 10:27 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
Border Collies and Australian Cattle Dogs are, in my experience, smart, strong-willed animals.
Ya there is a huge asterisk on the headline:
Border Collies will herd anything even with training and Newfies will "rescue" people "drowning" without provocation.
posted by Mitheral at 10:31 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
Ya there is a huge asterisk on the headline:
The researchers examined data only on dogs that live primarily as companion animals and did not study how genes influence working dogs bred to perform specific tasks.
Border Collies will herd anything even with training and Newfies will "rescue" people "drowning" without provocation.
posted by Mitheral at 10:31 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
All of the breed-specific kennel clubs are going to be so outraged that they've wasted all those man-millenia on developing the characteristics of their particular breeds! Wait, what?
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:31 AM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
The researchers examined data only on dogs that live primarily as companion animals and did not study how genes influence working dogs bred to perform specific tasks.Oh, I see. The purported conclusion doesn't pass the laugh test, and plausibly neither the authors of the original work nor the peer reviewers have any personal knowledge of or experience with dogs.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:31 AM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
Are the breeders failures? Is it just the physicality of the dog that you breed for and then select for aggressiveness from among the puppies? And like, if they're not aggressive, why are they so universally valued as symbols of violence with the toxic masculinity crowd? Nothing seems to line up.
I had a couple of friends who did rescue / rehabilitation with pits and pit mixes. This is what I noticed: pits are sweet, gentle, loving, and loyal dogs - super big on the loyal. They also love structure (consistent routines, will sit patiently thru human dinner with a full bowl of food in front of them until their owner says they can eat) and they are rule-followers.
If the rule a human with this loyal dog gives is “attack anything that comes near” that’s what they’ll do.
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:34 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
I had a couple of friends who did rescue / rehabilitation with pits and pit mixes. This is what I noticed: pits are sweet, gentle, loving, and loyal dogs - super big on the loyal. They also love structure (consistent routines, will sit patiently thru human dinner with a full bowl of food in front of them until their owner says they can eat) and they are rule-followers.
If the rule a human with this loyal dog gives is “attack anything that comes near” that’s what they’ll do.
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:34 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
On the TODAY show this morning they talked about this article. They said that 9% of behavior is linked to genetics, and the rest is driven by age, sex, and environment.
I believe that would be a misreading? It looks to me like they found breed to explain 9% of behavior. They found genetic correlations with specific behaviors or “personality traits” to be variable but generally quite a bit stronger than that, though not as strong as the correlations with physical traits. So again I’d think the implication would be that breed (among pet dogs) is only fairly loosely associated with the genes that influence behavior, which in turn are real but more modest in effect than genes that influence build and appearance.
posted by atoxyl at 10:37 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I believe that would be a misreading? It looks to me like they found breed to explain 9% of behavior. They found genetic correlations with specific behaviors or “personality traits” to be variable but generally quite a bit stronger than that, though not as strong as the correlations with physical traits. So again I’d think the implication would be that breed (among pet dogs) is only fairly loosely associated with the genes that influence behavior, which in turn are real but more modest in effect than genes that influence build and appearance.
posted by atoxyl at 10:37 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
klanawa
But then I remember that breeds, like races, are social constructs...
No.
A "breed," in kennel club terminology, is the set of documented descendants from the matings of the entrants in a stud book, and the matings of such descendants.
Saying that dog breeds are "socially constructed" is an abuse of terminology. It makes as much sense as saying that "odd numbers" are socially-constructed.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:38 AM on April 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
But then I remember that breeds, like races, are social constructs...
No.
A "breed," in kennel club terminology, is the set of documented descendants from the matings of the entrants in a stud book, and the matings of such descendants.
Saying that dog breeds are "socially constructed" is an abuse of terminology. It makes as much sense as saying that "odd numbers" are socially-constructed.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:38 AM on April 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
reaches for popcorn
honestly this says a lot about us (people) and that is fine I suppose
posted by elkevelvet at 10:41 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
honestly this says a lot about us (people) and that is fine I suppose
posted by elkevelvet at 10:41 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
It would be a shame if, now that there has been some discussion of TFA, the thread devolved into people posting pictures of their dogs.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:53 AM on April 29, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:53 AM on April 29, 2022 [20 favorites]
"devolved" they said
posted by elkevelvet at 10:54 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 10:54 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think I have to call BS on the TFA. My pug is incredibly lazy and I have photo evidence to prove it.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:07 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:07 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
I have started to come around to the belief that some of what we attribute as breed personality may just be self-fulfilling prophecy. People buy a dog from a given breed because they want [supposed personality traits] and then inadvertently condition the dog to have those traits.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:11 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:11 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am nowhere near as lazy as my dog. Unpossible.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:12 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:12 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
However, a Labrador is always going to be dumb as a sack of hammers, but a happy, dumb sack of hammers, and who wouldn’t love that?
Meanest dog I ever knew was a yellow lab, and he was raised by a responsible, loving family.
posted by hwyengr at 11:12 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Meanest dog I ever knew was a yellow lab, and he was raised by a responsible, loving family.
posted by hwyengr at 11:12 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Until people start underground Golden Retriever fight clubs, I refuse to believe the premise of this article.
posted by geoff. at 11:22 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by geoff. at 11:22 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
My dog is half black lab, half boxer (Boxador, they call them) and is occasionally fantastically stupid but so empathetic and considerate he can seem quite sharp. I can never quite pin him down.
This morning, we were walking and he had his neck craned to look behind him at a squirrel. He walked into a stop sign and conked his head and immediately went into defense mode like Who the fuck did that? SHOW YOURSELF. It was the comedic high point of my week.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:24 AM on April 29, 2022 [29 favorites]
This morning, we were walking and he had his neck craned to look behind him at a squirrel. He walked into a stop sign and conked his head and immediately went into defense mode like Who the fuck did that? SHOW YOURSELF. It was the comedic high point of my week.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:24 AM on April 29, 2022 [29 favorites]
I have started to come around to the belief that some of what we attribute as breed personality may just be self-fulfilling prophecy. People buy a dog from a given breed because they want [supposed personality traits] and then inadvertently condition the dog to have those traits.
I’m mostly repeating myself now but I suspect also a consequence of many dogs being bred as pets more than true working dogs is that people take the “best example” of the breed as the dog that looks the part, not the dog that’s actually good at [whatever the historical role of the breed was]. Those genes are still around but the variance between individuals is high.
posted by atoxyl at 11:27 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I’m mostly repeating myself now but I suspect also a consequence of many dogs being bred as pets more than true working dogs is that people take the “best example” of the breed as the dog that looks the part, not the dog that’s actually good at [whatever the historical role of the breed was]. Those genes are still around but the variance between individuals is high.
posted by atoxyl at 11:27 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Meanest dog is an outlier adn should not have been counted...
I was raised by Goldens. Who are just the best, happiest, loving dogs.
Then had a dark stretch without dogs.
Then got a job working with Pointers and Vizslas. Mostly, the pointers didn't care if I praised them for finding the dead birds we had planted in the fields. They wanted to find the next one. OK, one of them wanted to eat the one she had found, and THEN find the next one. Repeat. Kate was just the best. But, the seemingly overwhelming difference between the breeds, was wild. Dog training was all about giving praise. Pointers mostly didn't give a shit about praise.
Now we have standard Poodles. So smart. So needy.
Dogs are the best
posted by Windopaene at 11:29 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
I was raised by Goldens. Who are just the best, happiest, loving dogs.
Then had a dark stretch without dogs.
Then got a job working with Pointers and Vizslas. Mostly, the pointers didn't care if I praised them for finding the dead birds we had planted in the fields. They wanted to find the next one. OK, one of them wanted to eat the one she had found, and THEN find the next one. Repeat. Kate was just the best. But, the seemingly overwhelming difference between the breeds, was wild. Dog training was all about giving praise. Pointers mostly didn't give a shit about praise.
Now we have standard Poodles. So smart. So needy.
Dogs are the best
posted by Windopaene at 11:29 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
occasionally fantastically stupid
There’s a funny mention in this paper about a gene variation strongly more likely to be found in dogs that “get stuck behind objects” (which apparently corresponds to a gene associated with cognition in humans as well).
posted by atoxyl at 11:31 AM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
There’s a funny mention in this paper about a gene variation strongly more likely to be found in dogs that “get stuck behind objects” (which apparently corresponds to a gene associated with cognition in humans as well).
posted by atoxyl at 11:31 AM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
Look, the fact is that some dogs are just natural born watchdogs: staunch, stoic, guardians, possessed of quiet grace and immense, restrained power; capable of keeping post at a door behind which, say, the Boy might be sleeping (if he hadn't left for school several hours ago only the watchdog forgot), with almost supernatural vigilance and dignity.
That's just how it is and you have to have one to understand.
posted by The Bellman at 11:34 AM on April 29, 2022 [14 favorites]
That's just how it is and you have to have one to understand.
posted by The Bellman at 11:34 AM on April 29, 2022 [14 favorites]
coughMOREDOGPHOTOScough
Rango is spacedoggo.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:34 AM on April 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
Rango is spacedoggo.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:34 AM on April 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
Frodo does the dishes this morning ...
posted by mfoight at 11:35 AM on April 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by mfoight at 11:35 AM on April 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
Is Frodo a Great Pyrenees? One of my favorite dogs I ever knew was a Great Pyrenees. (There I go perpetuating the notion of breed personalities...)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:45 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:45 AM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
The paper really just confirms what I think would be common sense to most people. Certain breeds do have a tendency to be more or less trainable, more or less friendly with strangers, etc. and those tendencies actually line up pretty well with breed stereotypes. But of course not every golden retriever is affectionate and not every shiba is aloof because dogs are individuals with a lot of variation even within a breed and their early experiences have a big effect on them. (Which is why you always hear about the importance of socialization for puppies.) I guess if you believed all dog breeds were dramatically different from each other and all members of a certain breed always behaved just alike, then the results of this study might be surprising, but who actually believes that?
posted by Redstart at 11:49 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 11:49 AM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
Frodo can handle the Burden of the Ring.
What a good boy!
(Assuming, our eldest is Pippin, and not a male, and not a fool of a Took!)
posted by Windopaene at 11:53 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
What a good boy!
(Assuming, our eldest is Pippin, and not a male, and not a fool of a Took!)
posted by Windopaene at 11:53 AM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Our pittie is full of love and affection for every living creature, including other dogs. She is too enthusiastic and clumsy to be gentle most of the time, though.
Our chihuahua mutt worships our cousin M., is best buds with our pittie, and deigns to tolerate his humans that he has lived with for the past three years. Otherwise he is a small but potent package of neurosis and hatred, who abhors the existence of all other life forms in the universe.
posted by Foosnark at 11:57 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
Our chihuahua mutt worships our cousin M., is best buds with our pittie, and deigns to tolerate his humans that he has lived with for the past three years. Otherwise he is a small but potent package of neurosis and hatred, who abhors the existence of all other life forms in the universe.
posted by Foosnark at 11:57 AM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
pugs pulling sleds
Yukon Cornelius also doesn't care for generalizations about which dogs can pull sleds.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:12 PM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yukon Cornelius also doesn't care for generalizations about which dogs can pull sleds.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:12 PM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh, you want dog photos?, DOT? Here's my full on rescue squad
Sammy - the 17.5 year old cranky pants Time Traveling Assassin - Giving the Side Eye (when we went to adopt him, the humane society kept warning us that he was a bit attitudinal to the point where we asked if they wanted us to adopt him)
Hugo - the Chihuahua/Corgi/Bully - Somewhere, somehow he got the digging gene. Hates other dogs with a passion, but insists on always being in contact with me if I'm anywhere he can touch.
Pippy - the one dog we rescued on our own - she showed up at 8 weeks old outside my wife's classroom. Been here ever since - smart as a whip and learns from the other dogs.
Pumpkin - Our newest rescue - adopted at 3 after being surrendered by her owners who kept her and 5 other pack mates in their back yard with no names, no human contact, etc. It's been a year and she adores the hell out of my wife and tolerates me. (Seriously, how adorable is this face)?
In Memoriam Pics - Betty (we lost her last year to melanoma - scared as hell of everything, but fierce little dog with the longest legs ever); Cookie - best dog ever, chihuahua/corgi mix - smart as a whip and loyal and sweet - lost her one night to a heart attack at the age of 10; Luv - my original dog, not a rescue, but it was the 70's - such a goober and once did a flying tackle on a neighbors rottie that was attacking me despite being much smaller!
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:16 PM on April 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
Sammy - the 17.5 year old cranky pants Time Traveling Assassin - Giving the Side Eye (when we went to adopt him, the humane society kept warning us that he was a bit attitudinal to the point where we asked if they wanted us to adopt him)
Hugo - the Chihuahua/Corgi/Bully - Somewhere, somehow he got the digging gene. Hates other dogs with a passion, but insists on always being in contact with me if I'm anywhere he can touch.
Pippy - the one dog we rescued on our own - she showed up at 8 weeks old outside my wife's classroom. Been here ever since - smart as a whip and learns from the other dogs.
Pumpkin - Our newest rescue - adopted at 3 after being surrendered by her owners who kept her and 5 other pack mates in their back yard with no names, no human contact, etc. It's been a year and she adores the hell out of my wife and tolerates me. (Seriously, how adorable is this face)?
In Memoriam Pics - Betty (we lost her last year to melanoma - scared as hell of everything, but fierce little dog with the longest legs ever); Cookie - best dog ever, chihuahua/corgi mix - smart as a whip and loyal and sweet - lost her one night to a heart attack at the age of 10; Luv - my original dog, not a rescue, but it was the 70's - such a goober and once did a flying tackle on a neighbors rottie that was attacking me despite being much smaller!
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:16 PM on April 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
I will say that if people in your neighborhood are not properly socially distancing, get yourself a hulking, 75 pound black dog with a basso profundo bark and people will give you all the space you need.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:18 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:18 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well if we're doing dog photo sharing...
posted by PussKillian at 12:19 PM on April 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 12:19 PM on April 29, 2022 [13 favorites]
Frodo and his sister Primrose are both Samoyeds. Here they are with Finnrod - a Rough Collie. (All Tolkien names!). Sams are great dogs: fun, loving, and they really go in the snow!
posted by mfoight at 12:27 PM on April 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by mfoight at 12:27 PM on April 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
wtf? Breeding counts in agriculture--bovines we want to eat we breed to pack on flesh; they reliably pack on flesh. If they didn't, those producers would go out of business rapidly. Bovines whose milk we want to drink we breed to produce vats of milk and they do so. Reliably. Breeding counts less in pet animals. If it looks basically like what it's supposed to look basically like, then great, job done. There is not a huge, monitored-to-the-individual-hay-blade industry to whom the breeders of min pins must report if min pins fail to behave like min pins supposedly behave. Hence, the claims about personality traits or "innate skills" are a massive pile of bunkola. A pug cannot pull a dogsled because it's too small and it's been bred to find breathing difficult. If it woke up Gregor Samsa style in a body 70 pounds heavier with a functioning respiratory system, it could herd sheep or play ultimate Frisbee or conduct water rescues--whatever you want. This is the reason that, despite his not being a rat terrier, my friend's fat, smiley, big brown lab sniffed out, hunted down, and swallowed a family of field mice in about thirteen seconds before our horrified eyes, inadvertently skinning one of them alive in the process while our futile screams echoed through the pitiless winter wood. He wasn't a rat terrier; he wasn't really even a lab. He was a dog.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:38 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 12:38 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
Ooh I like this post better now that it's just a bunch of dog pics.
posted by obfuscation at 12:42 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by obfuscation at 12:42 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
Harvey is some kind of weird combination of bloodhound, German shepherd, possibly Irish setter? Maybe some flat out squirrel? He is prone to bouncing off the walls. The only ingredient I'm sure of is the hound, because occasionally - there is a raccoon in the tree in the backyard! There is a fire engine down the block! - he will bay and quite seriously at that. It always seems to astonish him and it definitely astonishes us. I have heard that you can hear a hound in full bay for three miles and I believe it. Harvey adores all people, just flat out loves them, and distrusts most dogs.
Here is Harvey with Perdita, who I would almost bet has a fair amount of Rhodesian ridgeback in her. She was a fearsome hunter as a young dog; she even cooperated with the cat to catch small mammals in the yard. Fortunately they are both too old now to hunt anything but cheese. Or maybe she's a Carolina dog! She likes to bark at other dogs out the window and she cannot be trusted off leash, because the world is full of interesting smells and horrible things to roll in and she would like to sample every one.
posted by mygothlaundry at 12:51 PM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
Here is Harvey with Perdita, who I would almost bet has a fair amount of Rhodesian ridgeback in her. She was a fearsome hunter as a young dog; she even cooperated with the cat to catch small mammals in the yard. Fortunately they are both too old now to hunt anything but cheese. Or maybe she's a Carolina dog! She likes to bark at other dogs out the window and she cannot be trusted off leash, because the world is full of interesting smells and horrible things to roll in and she would like to sample every one.
posted by mygothlaundry at 12:51 PM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
If it woke up Gregor Samsa style in a body 70 pounds heavier with a functioning respiratory system, it could herd sheep or play ultimate Frisbee or conduct water rescues--whatever you want.
Nah, it probably couldn't. Not all dogs have the innate skills needed to do those things, at least not to do them well. There really are innate skills that have been bred for in some breeds but not in others. There's a reason the dogs that win sheepdog trials are almost all border collies, not a variety of border collie sized dogs with athletic builds. (And the reason is not just that people don't try to train other types of dogs to do that work.) A pug is very unlikely to have anything like the border collie's strong instinct to control the movement of fleeing animals by heading them off, its intense focus on its work or its willingness to follow a human's commands. A lot of deliberate breeding has gone into developing a breed with those traits.
Playing frisbee is something more dogs can do well. Chasing and catching a moving object and then bringing it back is something a lot of dogs have an instinct to do and it's also feasible to teach to a dog that doesn't instinctively do it. But if you want a dog that's going to win disc dog competitions, you probably don't want to just pick a random dog that seems to have a suitably athletic shape. A lot of dogs just don't have the drive to chase frisbee after frisbee with the necessary enthusiasm. The magically transformed pug might, but I wouldn't bet money on it.
posted by Redstart at 1:13 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Nah, it probably couldn't. Not all dogs have the innate skills needed to do those things, at least not to do them well. There really are innate skills that have been bred for in some breeds but not in others. There's a reason the dogs that win sheepdog trials are almost all border collies, not a variety of border collie sized dogs with athletic builds. (And the reason is not just that people don't try to train other types of dogs to do that work.) A pug is very unlikely to have anything like the border collie's strong instinct to control the movement of fleeing animals by heading them off, its intense focus on its work or its willingness to follow a human's commands. A lot of deliberate breeding has gone into developing a breed with those traits.
Playing frisbee is something more dogs can do well. Chasing and catching a moving object and then bringing it back is something a lot of dogs have an instinct to do and it's also feasible to teach to a dog that doesn't instinctively do it. But if you want a dog that's going to win disc dog competitions, you probably don't want to just pick a random dog that seems to have a suitably athletic shape. A lot of dogs just don't have the drive to chase frisbee after frisbee with the necessary enthusiasm. The magically transformed pug might, but I wouldn't bet money on it.
posted by Redstart at 1:13 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I agree with Redstart. I used to have a purebred springer spaniel and once he brought me a live gosling, unharmed. I never trained him to be a retriever and I wouldn't have thought of him as innately retrieve-y - he would chase a ball and bring it back but he wouldn't get addicted to it the way you'll see labs get. That's a breed thing; there is no way Harvey or Perdita would bring me a live gosling. They would just eat it. Neither one of them will chase a ball for long either, come to think of it. Perdita just doesn't care and Harvey will chase it for about 5 minutes then carefully drop it with an exasperated look and ignore it from then on.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:35 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:35 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is so much in line with my world view that I want to believe it.
I also have lived with dogs who don't give a damn about birds and just walk past and other dogs that go batshit the moment they see birds. I'm really sure nobody taught them to do that.
posted by eotvos at 1:47 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I also have lived with dogs who don't give a damn about birds and just walk past and other dogs that go batshit the moment they see birds. I'm really sure nobody taught them to do that.
posted by eotvos at 1:47 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Might be helpful to look at the actual paper.
posted by atoxyl at 12:43 PM on April 29 [5 favorites +] [!]
Especially since it shows the headshots and names of the study subjects. Sprocket! Caboose! Twooie! Coconut!
Meanwhile this is Piper both well-behaved and during her weekly laundry sabotage.
posted by Mchelly at 1:52 PM on April 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 12:43 PM on April 29 [5 favorites +] [!]
Especially since it shows the headshots and names of the study subjects. Sprocket! Caboose! Twooie! Coconut!
Meanwhile this is Piper both well-behaved and during her weekly laundry sabotage.
posted by Mchelly at 1:52 PM on April 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a neurotic dog.
posted by peeedro at 2:12 PM on April 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 2:12 PM on April 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
A thread that evolves into dog pictures is a good thread.
posted by winesong at 2:17 PM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by winesong at 2:17 PM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
Sprocket! Caboose! Twooie!
Ranked in order of collie-ness! Though scientific validation for the “guess what the hell this mutt is” game has already been brought to the masses by the various 39-and-me (that’s how many chromosome pairs a dog has get it) services.
posted by atoxyl at 2:18 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ranked in order of collie-ness! Though scientific validation for the “guess what the hell this mutt is” game has already been brought to the masses by the various 39-and-me (that’s how many chromosome pairs a dog has get it) services.
posted by atoxyl at 2:18 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
this has been posted before, and it certainly needs to be part of this thread: Caribou's You Can Do It
posted by elkevelvet at 2:46 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by elkevelvet at 2:46 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm an AAAS member, so I have access to the article and I can share copies for scholarly purposes. Folks can MeMail me if they need a copy.
posted by wintermind at 2:56 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by wintermind at 2:56 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yay! Doggie pics!
Here are my two - Bunk is a Staffordshire (he's the one with his head up, though it looks like he's trying to nap). He's twelve now, but still in pretty good shape. Absolutely loves people - if you show up at my house and I welcome you in, he will decide you are his new best friend for life - and good with dogs he meets when they are puppies; otherwise he gets all huffy and growly around other dogs. Loves to sleep under a blanket.
Jasper is the one lying with her head on Bunk's paws; she's a rescue so we're not sure what she is. She is 2 and a half now - we adopted her just before the pandemic started. There's some type of hound in there for sure, just based on looks - I think she might have a lot of Redbone, but it doesn't matter much because she is 100% good dog. Playful, extremely affectionate. She can also do a reasonable impression of Max from the Grinch who Stole Christmas.
posted by nubs at 3:03 PM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
Here are my two - Bunk is a Staffordshire (he's the one with his head up, though it looks like he's trying to nap). He's twelve now, but still in pretty good shape. Absolutely loves people - if you show up at my house and I welcome you in, he will decide you are his new best friend for life - and good with dogs he meets when they are puppies; otherwise he gets all huffy and growly around other dogs. Loves to sleep under a blanket.
Jasper is the one lying with her head on Bunk's paws; she's a rescue so we're not sure what she is. She is 2 and a half now - we adopted her just before the pandemic started. There's some type of hound in there for sure, just based on looks - I think she might have a lot of Redbone, but it doesn't matter much because she is 100% good dog. Playful, extremely affectionate. She can also do a reasonable impression of Max from the Grinch who Stole Christmas.
posted by nubs at 3:03 PM on April 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
There's some good design in that study and what appears to be some not so good design that I don't have time to pull apart, though I might read it more deeply and use that study in training university students to evaluate research. Thanks to those who provided the link and offered copies.
I would not recommend using a Malamute as a cat sitter.
posted by ITravelMontana at 3:12 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would not recommend using a Malamute as a cat sitter.
posted by ITravelMontana at 3:12 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
We’ve been trying to keep ours off the fancy chairs, so I put my backpack on it. Franklin says, “Nice try, dad”
posted by hwyengr at 3:42 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by hwyengr at 3:42 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
Luce is turning 14 in two weeks!
She is - theoretically - a German Shepherd/Lab/Retriever mix. As for the article above...I joke that she got all of the recessive genes because my brave brave GSD is actually a huge chicken and my water-loving Lab hates water. But she's my sweetheart and I am thrilled and kind of amazed that she's still goofy and sweet at 14...definitely in her doggie dotage years.
posted by Gray Duck at 4:09 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
She is - theoretically - a German Shepherd/Lab/Retriever mix. As for the article above...I joke that she got all of the recessive genes because my brave brave GSD is actually a huge chicken and my water-loving Lab hates water. But she's my sweetheart and I am thrilled and kind of amazed that she's still goofy and sweet at 14...definitely in her doggie dotage years.
posted by Gray Duck at 4:09 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
ANECTODAL EVIDENCE: I was attacked by two pit bulls in the alley behind my house while taking out the garbage. I jumped up on a car before I was severely injured. But if I said I was attacked by two golden retrievers or two poodles in an alley, y'all would be saying WHAT?
posted by kozad at 4:16 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kozad at 4:16 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
My doggo pics: this is Jasper. He's an almost 2-year old, sable coat German shepherd; he's my brother's dog. My brother is unable to take care of him right now, so I am foster dogging.
posted by peeedro at 4:52 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 4:52 PM on April 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
Courage is feeding two bull Mastiffs thier medicine with peanut butter and an index finger.
This was my Bean
and Dingo.
posted by clavdivs at 5:25 PM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
This was my Bean
and Dingo.
posted by clavdivs at 5:25 PM on April 29, 2022 [4 favorites]
Here is a great thread from Iditarod musher Blair Braverman about her Alaskan huskies, which are not an official "breed" with any sort of official properties, just dogs that Alaskans have bred for generations to pull sleds.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:26 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 5:26 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
this is Huxley. I think there’s some beagle in there. He screams sometimes.
This is Dodger. I believe he contains Boxer, Scruffy, and multitudes.
They are wonderful rescue dogs. My life is full because of them.
posted by obfuscation at 6:42 PM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is Dodger. I believe he contains Boxer, Scruffy, and multitudes.
They are wonderful rescue dogs. My life is full because of them.
posted by obfuscation at 6:42 PM on April 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is a lot more nuanced than the WaPo summary: Humans Can’t Quit a Basic Myth About Dog Breeds.
posted by peeedro at 6:44 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by peeedro at 6:44 PM on April 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am loving the dog photos!
ANECTODAL EVIDENCE: I was attacked by two pit bulls in the alley behind my house while taking out the garbage. I jumped up on a car before I was severely injured. But if I said I was attacked by two golden retrievers or two poodles in an alley, y'all would be saying WHAT?
When I was a kid, we lived in a place where dogs were either allowed to run loose or chained in the yard, and there were a lot of mean, bitey dogs in the neighborhood that would try and sometimes succeed in biting kids, killing cats, etc. (There were good dogs, too, but as a kid the bad ones where what left an impression.) If you saw a dog, you picked up some rocks.
The absolute worst of those bad dogs was a matched pair of purebred poodles that the evangelical lady at the corner owned. They were incredibly vicious and mean and we were all scared of them. Since then I've met lots of nice poodles, but I still approach them with more caution than other types of dogs.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
ANECTODAL EVIDENCE: I was attacked by two pit bulls in the alley behind my house while taking out the garbage. I jumped up on a car before I was severely injured. But if I said I was attacked by two golden retrievers or two poodles in an alley, y'all would be saying WHAT?
When I was a kid, we lived in a place where dogs were either allowed to run loose or chained in the yard, and there were a lot of mean, bitey dogs in the neighborhood that would try and sometimes succeed in biting kids, killing cats, etc. (There were good dogs, too, but as a kid the bad ones where what left an impression.) If you saw a dog, you picked up some rocks.
The absolute worst of those bad dogs was a matched pair of purebred poodles that the evangelical lady at the corner owned. They were incredibly vicious and mean and we were all scared of them. Since then I've met lots of nice poodles, but I still approach them with more caution than other types of dogs.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 PM on April 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
There's clearly a political movement afoot to downplay the supposed aggressiveness of the breed(s) [pit bulls] towards humans but I frankly don't trust its motives.
It's funny that you would say this, because online anti-pit bull sentiment is actually notoriously associated with white supremacists and the alt-right. /r/pitbullhate is a known hive of white supremacists. There's an anti-pit bull Stonetoss comic. [tw for just straight-up racism] This Snopes article discusses how /pol/ was the origin for a troll campaign called #PitbullDropOff that tried to trick people (in their words, "naive pitmommies and various other low IQ individuals") into believing that people were adopting pit bulls with the express goal of euthanizing them.
I'm not going to copy and paste some of the more disgusting misogynist and racist comments (you can read some of them yourself in the Snopes article), but at a high level, the hatred of pit bulls and pit bull owners displayed by alt-righters is just another expression of their core beliefs, namely: 1) women are stupid, gullible, and emotional; 2) black men are savages; 3) genes determine everything and Charles Murray was right.
posted by cultanthropologist at 12:26 AM on April 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's funny that you would say this, because online anti-pit bull sentiment is actually notoriously associated with white supremacists and the alt-right. /r/pitbullhate is a known hive of white supremacists. There's an anti-pit bull Stonetoss comic. [tw for just straight-up racism] This Snopes article discusses how /pol/ was the origin for a troll campaign called #PitbullDropOff that tried to trick people (in their words, "naive pitmommies and various other low IQ individuals") into believing that people were adopting pit bulls with the express goal of euthanizing them.
I'm not going to copy and paste some of the more disgusting misogynist and racist comments (you can read some of them yourself in the Snopes article), but at a high level, the hatred of pit bulls and pit bull owners displayed by alt-righters is just another expression of their core beliefs, namely: 1) women are stupid, gullible, and emotional; 2) black men are savages; 3) genes determine everything and Charles Murray was right.
posted by cultanthropologist at 12:26 AM on April 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
I hear what they're saying, but also...I used to walk two dogs--a Doberman and a lab--and one day we encountered a lawn sprinkler that was spraying on the sidewalk. The Doberman carefully navigated around it to avoid getting wet while the lab circled back to go through the sprinkler a second time.
posted by needs more cowbell at 2:41 AM on April 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by needs more cowbell at 2:41 AM on April 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
I admit I haven't read the full study but this, from the summary, seems like an important distinction : "For more heritable, more breed-differentiated traits, like biddability (responsiveness to direction and commands), knowing breed ancestry can make behavioral predictions somewhat more accurate (see the figure). For less heritable, less breed-differentiated traits, like agonistic threshold (how easily a dog is provoked by frightening or uncomfortable stimuli), breed is almost uninformative."
posted by sepviva at 3:14 AM on April 30, 2022
posted by sepviva at 3:14 AM on April 30, 2022
ANECTODAL EVIDENCE: I was attacked by two pit bulls in the alley behind my house while taking out the garbage. I jumped up on a car before I was severely injured. But if I said I was attacked by two golden retrievers or two poodles in an alley, y'all would be saying WHAT?
Ah, but what are you saying that is anecdotal evidence of? Actual breed characteristics, or societal prejudices?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:34 AM on April 30, 2022
Ah, but what are you saying that is anecdotal evidence of? Actual breed characteristics, or societal prejudices?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:34 AM on April 30, 2022
ANECTODAL EVIDENCE: I was attacked by two pit bulls . . .
I also have ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE. I've lived with various dogs my whole life and the only one that's ever attacked me was a greyhound that my wife and I rescued. Almost took half my lip off. He also bit my wife, the other dog that lived with us at the time, and a neighbor's dog (all separate incidents). I don't tell this story often because it's almost universally met with "Butbutbut greyhounds are SO NICE." Sure, almost all are. Not that one. Yet, the many pitbull mixes and german shepherds I've lived with have all been perfectly docile.
It's really about the people—how they raise the dogs and how they conceive of them—not the breed.
posted by cyclopticgaze at 5:03 AM on April 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I also have ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE. I've lived with various dogs my whole life and the only one that's ever attacked me was a greyhound that my wife and I rescued. Almost took half my lip off. He also bit my wife, the other dog that lived with us at the time, and a neighbor's dog (all separate incidents). I don't tell this story often because it's almost universally met with "Butbutbut greyhounds are SO NICE." Sure, almost all are. Not that one. Yet, the many pitbull mixes and german shepherds I've lived with have all been perfectly docile.
It's really about the people—how they raise the dogs and how they conceive of them—not the breed.
posted by cyclopticgaze at 5:03 AM on April 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I still love greyhounds by the way and would happily own another!
posted by cyclopticgaze at 5:08 AM on April 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by cyclopticgaze at 5:08 AM on April 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think it's fair to question the self-reporting aspect of the study, but if that's a major stumbling block, it also implies that any personal anecdotal evidence to the contrary is going to be even less useful for the precise same reason.
posted by eponym at 5:43 AM on April 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by eponym at 5:43 AM on April 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
They're all bred to be lifelong puppies. That's the only constant. The other "features"--head that weighs as much as a couple of bowling balls and a jaw like a shark crossed with a beartrap; squashed face that makes it die of suffocation long before its time--that all depends on preference, the same as "athletic shoes" supposedly have all these feet-and-leg-protective features but in fact just look cool for an infinite number of values of "cool."
For a while there was a famous "wild dog gang" terrorizing the town. It was led by a notorious pit bull, but there were all kinds of other strains of mutt following him. Animal control began picking off dogs from the crew until they got them all, but before they managed this there was one night that I saw the leader of the pack. I was on the way out to the airport in the middle of the night and I looked over and there he was, all by himself running flat out, just booking up the road in the empty turn lane running hell for leather. He just looked so awesome out there traveling along on the people paths but completely shet of people and doing his own goddamn business, thank you very much. Of course they nabbed him a day or two later and that was the end of that. I hope the dogs survive the end of our world.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:56 AM on April 30, 2022
For a while there was a famous "wild dog gang" terrorizing the town. It was led by a notorious pit bull, but there were all kinds of other strains of mutt following him. Animal control began picking off dogs from the crew until they got them all, but before they managed this there was one night that I saw the leader of the pack. I was on the way out to the airport in the middle of the night and I looked over and there he was, all by himself running flat out, just booking up the road in the empty turn lane running hell for leather. He just looked so awesome out there traveling along on the people paths but completely shet of people and doing his own goddamn business, thank you very much. Of course they nabbed him a day or two later and that was the end of that. I hope the dogs survive the end of our world.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:56 AM on April 30, 2022
Spread the greyhound love! If you have the means, I highly recommend adopting a retired racer. Such lazy goofballs.
posted by snwod at 7:16 AM on April 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by snwod at 7:16 AM on April 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is Riley! She’s a Norwegian Elkhound - Border Collie mix and I’m sorry but she’s VERY both of those things.
posted by functionequalsform at 7:55 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by functionequalsform at 7:55 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
I grew up with a medium-small slender mixed breed dog and I thought I knew her. She was calm, gentle, placid even. Only excited when someone was at the door and it was because she was hoping it was a friend (preferably my now late uncle with his secret pocket full of dog biscuits).
Then one day when I was a teenager and she was 10+ years old I was walking her and I ran into a group of my bullies together all at once. Five of them.
My dog had never bit anyone ever. She never so much as snarled. I had never seen her bare her fangs. I had never seen a snarling lunge.
They decided, being dumbasses like bullies are, that they should threaten me verbally and with a few aggressive gestures while I was with my dog. I did nothing. I ignored them and tried to keep walking by.
The only reason they still had their faces and intact necks after this encounter was because I was holding onto a steal chain leash attached to a well fitted dog collar. I was pretty impressed by her after that. I was also pretty afraid of her after that.
You might think you know your dog but you probably don't really KNOW your dog in all possible situations. I believe there is a beast inside every dog waiting for the correct combination to unlock and good dog owners are the ones who don't brute force the possible combinations. The beast is still in there though.
I also got bit on the ass by a miniature poodle once. It launched itself, bit a cheek and drew blood. I think it was a fit of pique because I laughed dismissively when it charged at me.
posted by srboisvert at 8:44 AM on April 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
Then one day when I was a teenager and she was 10+ years old I was walking her and I ran into a group of my bullies together all at once. Five of them.
My dog had never bit anyone ever. She never so much as snarled. I had never seen her bare her fangs. I had never seen a snarling lunge.
They decided, being dumbasses like bullies are, that they should threaten me verbally and with a few aggressive gestures while I was with my dog. I did nothing. I ignored them and tried to keep walking by.
The only reason they still had their faces and intact necks after this encounter was because I was holding onto a steal chain leash attached to a well fitted dog collar. I was pretty impressed by her after that. I was also pretty afraid of her after that.
You might think you know your dog but you probably don't really KNOW your dog in all possible situations. I believe there is a beast inside every dog waiting for the correct combination to unlock and good dog owners are the ones who don't brute force the possible combinations. The beast is still in there though.
I also got bit on the ass by a miniature poodle once. It launched itself, bit a cheek and drew blood. I think it was a fit of pique because I laughed dismissively when it charged at me.
posted by srboisvert at 8:44 AM on April 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
Aaaaaugh...
I work as a survey researcher for a living, and I have two dogs, who both participated in the study that's summarized in the WaPo article. The discussion here has devolved to such a point that I'm almost motivated to type in that table-flipping emoji, if I knew how.
Yes, they used surveys of dog owners, but that was not the only piece of evidence they had. They had actual DNA collected from dogs by the same dog owners who completed the surveys. I should know. I was one of them.
I know a bunch of you think surveys are a bunch of voodoo or bourgeois scientism or whatever, but this is the best survey of its kind, because of it has over 200K respondents & the survey data can be checked against real DNA samples collected by the same owners who responded to the survey.
I'd say RTFA, but I know some of you didn't, based on your comments here. For example, I hear "What about size?", but in the study, they use a dog's size as a trait that is heritable. In fact, size is so affected by genetic factors in dogs that the authors of the study used dog size as the baseline comparison for measuring the heritability of all other dog traits in the study.
I hear somebody mention border collies, but in the actual study, border collies are singled out as an exception to the rule as a breed with highly heritable traits.
The rest of this thread is just, "Surveys are voodoo, because they're not confirming my folk theories and my priors about my precious widdle doggies."
Yes, people do lie on surveys, but if you have a sample that is sufficiently large (as this study does), any individual, non-systematic biases introduced by falsified responses will tend to cancel out.
The big innovation in this study is that it collected very large samples of DNA from mutts, whereas as most previous studies of dog DNA were focused almost exclusively on purebred dogs.
I hear accusations of bias, but all the potential biases are in the direction of this study confirming your folk theories and priors about biologically rooted dog traits. If people give biased answers on this survey, the biases are all in the direction of confirming people's folk theories about the biologically rooted personality traits of their dogs. However, because the study includes lots of DNA from mutts, the study has a way to test those hypotheses. If a folk theory about Dog Breed X having Dog Trait Y is true, then evidence of Trait Y should not only be present in the answers from owners of Dog Breed X, but it should also present in the answers from owners of mutts who have the DNA from Dog Breed X, regardless of whether the owner knows whether the dog has DNA from Dog Breed X. In addition, some of the DNA submitted by purebred dog owners showed that the dogs were not purebred. If survey responses about Trait Y were simply driven by folk theories and biased responses by owners, then there should be no difference between the responses from owners of purebred Dog Breed X and the responses from owners of "fake purebreds" who mistakenly believe they have a purebred dog.
In addition, the institutional biases of the authors are all in favor of finding heritable dog traits. Aside from avoiding flak from dog owners who don't like their folk theories about their dogs debunked, the authors have a major incentive to find heritable traits linked to dog breeds, because those findings would be very lucrative for the practice of veterinary medicine. They already prescribe antidepressants to dogs. If there were pills to cure every behavior problem of every dog, these authors would have a gigantic incentive to find it. In addition, since dogs and humans co-evolved with each other, heritable personality traits linked to breed would even have major implications for the treatment of human psychological maladies, something which Big Pharma could definitely monetize.
Instead, the authors of the study mostly found confirmation for a bunch of null hypotheses, when most of the professional incentives are to bury null hypotheses and do p-hacking to find confirmation for non-null hypotheses (i.e., the file drawer problem).
posted by jonp72 at 9:28 AM on April 30, 2022 [20 favorites]
I work as a survey researcher for a living, and I have two dogs, who both participated in the study that's summarized in the WaPo article. The discussion here has devolved to such a point that I'm almost motivated to type in that table-flipping emoji, if I knew how.
Yes, they used surveys of dog owners, but that was not the only piece of evidence they had. They had actual DNA collected from dogs by the same dog owners who completed the surveys. I should know. I was one of them.
I know a bunch of you think surveys are a bunch of voodoo or bourgeois scientism or whatever, but this is the best survey of its kind, because of it has over 200K respondents & the survey data can be checked against real DNA samples collected by the same owners who responded to the survey.
I'd say RTFA, but I know some of you didn't, based on your comments here. For example, I hear "What about size?", but in the study, they use a dog's size as a trait that is heritable. In fact, size is so affected by genetic factors in dogs that the authors of the study used dog size as the baseline comparison for measuring the heritability of all other dog traits in the study.
I hear somebody mention border collies, but in the actual study, border collies are singled out as an exception to the rule as a breed with highly heritable traits.
The rest of this thread is just, "Surveys are voodoo, because they're not confirming my folk theories and my priors about my precious widdle doggies."
Yes, people do lie on surveys, but if you have a sample that is sufficiently large (as this study does), any individual, non-systematic biases introduced by falsified responses will tend to cancel out.
The big innovation in this study is that it collected very large samples of DNA from mutts, whereas as most previous studies of dog DNA were focused almost exclusively on purebred dogs.
I hear accusations of bias, but all the potential biases are in the direction of this study confirming your folk theories and priors about biologically rooted dog traits. If people give biased answers on this survey, the biases are all in the direction of confirming people's folk theories about the biologically rooted personality traits of their dogs. However, because the study includes lots of DNA from mutts, the study has a way to test those hypotheses. If a folk theory about Dog Breed X having Dog Trait Y is true, then evidence of Trait Y should not only be present in the answers from owners of Dog Breed X, but it should also present in the answers from owners of mutts who have the DNA from Dog Breed X, regardless of whether the owner knows whether the dog has DNA from Dog Breed X. In addition, some of the DNA submitted by purebred dog owners showed that the dogs were not purebred. If survey responses about Trait Y were simply driven by folk theories and biased responses by owners, then there should be no difference between the responses from owners of purebred Dog Breed X and the responses from owners of "fake purebreds" who mistakenly believe they have a purebred dog.
In addition, the institutional biases of the authors are all in favor of finding heritable dog traits. Aside from avoiding flak from dog owners who don't like their folk theories about their dogs debunked, the authors have a major incentive to find heritable traits linked to dog breeds, because those findings would be very lucrative for the practice of veterinary medicine. They already prescribe antidepressants to dogs. If there were pills to cure every behavior problem of every dog, these authors would have a gigantic incentive to find it. In addition, since dogs and humans co-evolved with each other, heritable personality traits linked to breed would even have major implications for the treatment of human psychological maladies, something which Big Pharma could definitely monetize.
Instead, the authors of the study mostly found confirmation for a bunch of null hypotheses, when most of the professional incentives are to bury null hypotheses and do p-hacking to find confirmation for non-null hypotheses (i.e., the file drawer problem).
posted by jonp72 at 9:28 AM on April 30, 2022 [20 favorites]
Presumably chihuachuas would need really small sheep for herding. I'd like to see that.
Only if you want to see a chilling and savage attack resulting in the bloody torn throats of helpless innocent woolies.
Cowdogs FTW!
I've had/I now have three that were returned multiple times to the pound, and I believe they were given to me with the expection that they would once again fail placement. All three were/are "wrapped pretty tight" but more than willing to lay around snoozing under the computer desk, if that was/is the day's agenda. All were/are good canine citizens.
I will tell you though, I'd only have one at time!
posted by BlueHorse at 9:39 AM on April 30, 2022
Only if you want to see a chilling and savage attack resulting in the bloody torn throats of helpless innocent woolies.
Cowdogs FTW!
I've had/I now have three that were returned multiple times to the pound, and I believe they were given to me with the expection that they would once again fail placement. All three were/are "wrapped pretty tight" but more than willing to lay around snoozing under the computer desk, if that was/is the day's agenda. All were/are good canine citizens.
I will tell you though, I'd only have one at time!
posted by BlueHorse at 9:39 AM on April 30, 2022
I appreciate that the discussion of TFA is enduring, and that I am getting to see pictures of your very, very good dogs.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:44 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:44 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Copper apparently was bred to be a greeter. Or maybe I'm just not giving her enough treats.
posted by philip-random at 10:20 AM on April 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 10:20 AM on April 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
Meet Zoe.* Our best guess is that she’s a corgi/pit mix. She was the second-cutest puppy in a litter at the Humane Society (first cutest was already taken) and the kennel label said they were pits. I was excited about that. I wanted a big dog. But then… she just got long and stayed short. She ended up being about 40 pounds.
She’s a great dog. 12 years old now and has hypertension and a heart murmur, but she’s still running circles around the yard and generally enjoying life.
She doesn’t like other dogs, but does like people, reservedly — unless they’re male-presenting and bald and/or tall. She hates those guys. No idea why. We brought her home at two months old and she was already like that.
She was also weird and nervous around little kids until we brought home our own when she was 8ish years old. Her attitude there has always seemed to be tired resignation to her fate.
* apparently I only take pictures of her during our month of winter here in Austin
posted by liet at 10:34 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
She’s a great dog. 12 years old now and has hypertension and a heart murmur, but she’s still running circles around the yard and generally enjoying life.
She doesn’t like other dogs, but does like people, reservedly — unless they’re male-presenting and bald and/or tall. She hates those guys. No idea why. We brought her home at two months old and she was already like that.
She was also weird and nervous around little kids until we brought home our own when she was 8ish years old. Her attitude there has always seemed to be tired resignation to her fate.
* apparently I only take pictures of her during our month of winter here in Austin
posted by liet at 10:34 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
A good friend is a dog handler from childhood, and she spends most of her energy and time training and handling dogs, and most weekends with other professional dog people. If you want to know anything about the current state of canine temperament and dog breeding she is a reliable source.
One thing she has said now for several years is that both goldens and labs are now being bred to be more anxious and wired and they are sadly, no longer the gentle family dogs of yore (of course YOUR lab or golden may be different; I am just relaying this information to warn people who are going by old standards to be careful).
posted by nanook at 11:08 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
One thing she has said now for several years is that both goldens and labs are now being bred to be more anxious and wired and they are sadly, no longer the gentle family dogs of yore (of course YOUR lab or golden may be different; I am just relaying this information to warn people who are going by old standards to be careful).
posted by nanook at 11:08 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
One thing she has said now for several years is that both goldens and labs are now being bred to be more anxious and wired and they are sadly, no longer the gentle family dogs of yore
Does she have any idea why a breeder would make that choice? Or does she mean they’re being overbred by people not paying attention?
posted by PussKillian at 11:25 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Does she have any idea why a breeder would make that choice? Or does she mean they’re being overbred by people not paying attention?
posted by PussKillian at 11:25 AM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
> Presumably chihuachuas would need really small sheep for herding. I'd like to see that.
I'll just leave this right here.
posted by lhauser at 12:13 PM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'll just leave this right here.
posted by lhauser at 12:13 PM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
in the actual study, border collies are singled out as an exception to the rule as a breed with highly heritable traits.
An exception that disproves the rule? Surely the fact that they had to exclude a breed that is bred primarily for temperament (prey drive + low aggression toward livestock) proves not so much that breed traits aren't heritable but that most companion animals are not bred for those traits? Which is a thing a lot of dog lovers know, both that the general public care more about their pet having the right size, or a "hypoallergenic" coat, or a cute squished in nose than anything else, and also that modern breed standards focus way too much on exaggerated physical characteristics, often to the detriment of the dogs' health.
posted by radiogreentea at 3:28 PM on April 30, 2022
An exception that disproves the rule? Surely the fact that they had to exclude a breed that is bred primarily for temperament (prey drive + low aggression toward livestock) proves not so much that breed traits aren't heritable but that most companion animals are not bred for those traits? Which is a thing a lot of dog lovers know, both that the general public care more about their pet having the right size, or a "hypoallergenic" coat, or a cute squished in nose than anything else, and also that modern breed standards focus way too much on exaggerated physical characteristics, often to the detriment of the dogs' health.
posted by radiogreentea at 3:28 PM on April 30, 2022
My sweeping enthusiasm for dogs is currently being challenged by the little dog of the family I'm visiting, who has bit me upwards of 25x, drawing blood once (only a bit but still) and ruining my new shoes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:48 PM on April 30, 2022
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:48 PM on April 30, 2022
(It's not all bad: this dog's big brother is a black lab who looks like a larger version of my guy, and outside of an added kissing/drool situation, has a very similar personality.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:59 PM on April 30, 2022
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:59 PM on April 30, 2022
The first dogs to exist evolved from wolves more than 2,000 years ago and developed traits that helped them live alongside humans
I get that the "more than" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence, but is the article really happy with 2000 as the conservative estimate? They really want us to imagine that dogs were evolving from wolves during the Roman Empire, right around the time that Jesus guy supposedly got killed?
posted by meese at 8:01 PM on April 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I get that the "more than" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence, but is the article really happy with 2000 as the conservative estimate? They really want us to imagine that dogs were evolving from wolves during the Roman Empire, right around the time that Jesus guy supposedly got killed?
posted by meese at 8:01 PM on April 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
in the actual study, border collies are singled out as an exception to the rule as a breed with highly heritable traits.
An exception that disproves the rule? Surely the fact that they had to exclude a breed that is bred primarily for temperament (prey drive + low aggression toward livestock) proves not so much that breed traits aren't heritable but that most companion animals are not bred for those traits?
Border collies were a breed mentioned by the study authors as having highly heritable traits, but that doesn't mean they actually excluded them from the study. The study has a great data visualization that depicts the range of biddability (i.e., willingness to follow human commands & return when called) in border collies and mutts with border collie DNA. The distribution shows that most border collies are on the biddable side of the scale, but even then, there are still more independent-minded border collies in the distribution.
posted by jonp72 at 8:10 PM on April 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
An exception that disproves the rule? Surely the fact that they had to exclude a breed that is bred primarily for temperament (prey drive + low aggression toward livestock) proves not so much that breed traits aren't heritable but that most companion animals are not bred for those traits?
Border collies were a breed mentioned by the study authors as having highly heritable traits, but that doesn't mean they actually excluded them from the study. The study has a great data visualization that depicts the range of biddability (i.e., willingness to follow human commands & return when called) in border collies and mutts with border collie DNA. The distribution shows that most border collies are on the biddable side of the scale, but even then, there are still more independent-minded border collies in the distribution.
posted by jonp72 at 8:10 PM on April 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
One thing she has said now for several years is that both goldens and labs are now being bred to be more anxious and wired and they are sadly, no longer the gentle family dogs of yore
Does she have any idea why a breeder would make that choice? Or does she mean they’re being overbred by people not paying attention?
I can't speak for the breeder, but I highly doubt that labradors are deliberately being bred to be anxious and wired. I think it's more likely that the labradors are getting overbred. If you have a family tree with too few forks, you can get founder effects that result in genetic mutations within the breed. But that's not due to the breed per se. It's due to a lack of genetic variation within a specific population. If you have unscrupulous puppy mill breeders that are having dogs mate with their siblings (which some do), you are going to get some disagreeable traits, regardless of the general reputation of the breed.
posted by jonp72 at 8:19 PM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Does she have any idea why a breeder would make that choice? Or does she mean they’re being overbred by people not paying attention?
I can't speak for the breeder, but I highly doubt that labradors are deliberately being bred to be anxious and wired. I think it's more likely that the labradors are getting overbred. If you have a family tree with too few forks, you can get founder effects that result in genetic mutations within the breed. But that's not due to the breed per se. It's due to a lack of genetic variation within a specific population. If you have unscrupulous puppy mill breeders that are having dogs mate with their siblings (which some do), you are going to get some disagreeable traits, regardless of the general reputation of the breed.
posted by jonp72 at 8:19 PM on April 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
The rest of this thread is just, "Surveys are voodoo, because they're not confirming my folk theories and my priors about my precious widdle doggies."
The core problem isn't that surveys are voodoo, it's just that classifications of behavior by untrained people are not the same as behavior.
This is a great study of what owners think about dog behavior.
But while owner perceptions or classifications of behavior are obviously correlated with actual behavior, there's still a lot of leakage between they concept they claim to be measuring -- dog behavior -- and what they're actually measuring. I can't speak to the more anova-oriented methods they're mostly discussing (or when they use a regression tool for to generate what appear to be anova-style results), but in a regression context the effect of measurement error on the thing you're studying is to inflate the SE of your estimates, making null results more likely.
It's also worth noting that the main result seems to me to be "dog behavior is highly variable and individual," not "breed doesn't matter." In the study, breed explains more variation in owner reports of dog behavior than age, sex, or size do. To me, it looks like this is one of those DVs where, again from a regression context, an R2 of 0.2 is pretty good.
The things I'd like to see are (1) a set of controls for owner characteristics, which on just skimming the article they don't seem to have done, and (2) cross-validation with (possibly) more objective measures of behavior, maybe performance in performance events like herding instinct trials, barn hunt, gun dog field trials, or whatever. Or even just observation by trained observers with some clear and predefined rubric.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:51 PM on April 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
The core problem isn't that surveys are voodoo, it's just that classifications of behavior by untrained people are not the same as behavior.
This is a great study of what owners think about dog behavior.
But while owner perceptions or classifications of behavior are obviously correlated with actual behavior, there's still a lot of leakage between they concept they claim to be measuring -- dog behavior -- and what they're actually measuring. I can't speak to the more anova-oriented methods they're mostly discussing (or when they use a regression tool for to generate what appear to be anova-style results), but in a regression context the effect of measurement error on the thing you're studying is to inflate the SE of your estimates, making null results more likely.
It's also worth noting that the main result seems to me to be "dog behavior is highly variable and individual," not "breed doesn't matter." In the study, breed explains more variation in owner reports of dog behavior than age, sex, or size do. To me, it looks like this is one of those DVs where, again from a regression context, an R2 of 0.2 is pretty good.
The things I'd like to see are (1) a set of controls for owner characteristics, which on just skimming the article they don't seem to have done, and (2) cross-validation with (possibly) more objective measures of behavior, maybe performance in performance events like herding instinct trials, barn hunt, gun dog field trials, or whatever. Or even just observation by trained observers with some clear and predefined rubric.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:51 PM on April 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
One thing she has said now for several years is that both goldens and labs are now being bred to be more anxious and wired and they are sadly, no longer the gentle family dogs of yore
Does she have any idea why a breeder would make that choice? Or does she mean they’re being overbred by people not paying attention?
She says that It's for competition in field trials (hunting competitions), which has gotten more competitive and stylized, so they want these very high-drive dogs. Show dogs in general have been bred to be more wired because they show better.
The labs are more for the field trials, the goldens more for the show ring. Same result, but less.
posted by nanook at 2:45 PM on May 1, 2022
Does she have any idea why a breeder would make that choice? Or does she mean they’re being overbred by people not paying attention?
She says that It's for competition in field trials (hunting competitions), which has gotten more competitive and stylized, so they want these very high-drive dogs. Show dogs in general have been bred to be more wired because they show better.
The labs are more for the field trials, the goldens more for the show ring. Same result, but less.
posted by nanook at 2:45 PM on May 1, 2022
She says that It's for competition in field trials (hunting competitions), which has gotten more competitive and stylized, so they want these very high-drive dogs. Show dogs in general have been bred to be more wired because they show better.
To live a long life is to witness the obliteration of many fine and beautiful things.
posted by StarkRoads at 12:05 AM on May 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
To live a long life is to witness the obliteration of many fine and beautiful things.
posted by StarkRoads at 12:05 AM on May 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
min pins must report if min pins fail to behave like min pins supposedly behave
As an owner of a min-pin, I'm pretty sure they were bred as presents to frenemies as a living cute-ish eventual fatal trip hazard.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:52 PM on May 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
As an owner of a min-pin, I'm pretty sure they were bred as presents to frenemies as a living cute-ish eventual fatal trip hazard.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:52 PM on May 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Rebecca Watson has a video up about this paper.
posted by klanawa at 2:18 PM on May 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 2:18 PM on May 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
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