I thought I could give the horse a good race
June 13, 2022 1:09 PM Subscribe
I called my partner and said: "I beat the horse." And she said: "You're joking?" Despite being awake for 29 hours before the race even started, fittingly-named fell runner and firefighter Ricky Lightfoot has become the first person in 15 years--and the third person ever--to win the 22.5-mile Man vs Horse race across the Welsh countryside.
It would be interesting to know more about what makes the difference -- a horse is obviously faster than a human in a straight race on flat ground, but where do humans make-up ground in this race?
posted by jacquilynne at 1:33 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 1:33 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
One of the jockeys in this video says horses are faster uphill while humans are faster downhill.
It's astonishing humans can do 22 miles in 2h22m across country. That seems very close to elite regular marathon pace?
posted by Rumple at 1:40 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's astonishing humans can do 22 miles in 2h22m across country. That seems very close to elite regular marathon pace?
posted by Rumple at 1:40 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
They mentioned muddy and boggy terrain, too, so there might be stretches where riders have to go more cautiously than humans. Not that humans can't break their legs in bad terrain, but not as easily and they recover rather better.
posted by tavella at 1:55 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by tavella at 1:55 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
The 37-year-old Cumbrian said winning was "pretty good, like".
They should've sent a poet
posted by ominous_paws at 2:05 PM on June 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
They should've sent a poet
posted by ominous_paws at 2:05 PM on June 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
It's astonishing humans can do 22 miles in 2h22m across country. That seems very close to elite regular marathon pace?
It'd be a 2h50m marathon at the same pace, which is certainly a number any 37-year-old non-professional runner would be proud of, but not elite.
posted by tavella at 2:09 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
It'd be a 2h50m marathon at the same pace, which is certainly a number any 37-year-old non-professional runner would be proud of, but not elite.
posted by tavella at 2:09 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's astonishing humans can do 22 miles in 2h22m across country. That seems very close to elite regular marathon pace?
That's a 6:27 min/mi pace, which is indeed ridiculous.
The world record marathon, otoh, is 4:39min/mi
How, I couldn't tell you in a million years
posted by billjings at 2:11 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
That's a 6:27 min/mi pace, which is indeed ridiculous.
The world record marathon, otoh, is 4:39min/mi
How, I couldn't tell you in a million years
posted by billjings at 2:11 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's astonishing humans can do 22 miles in 2h22m across country. That seems very close to elite regular marathon pace?
That's a 6:30/mile pace. The world record marathon is about 2:02, or about a 4:40 pace. And his marathon time on the road is 2:35, around a 6 minute pace. So this is an amazing achievement, but it's quite different than the pro marathoners. Thus, "He took home £3,500 in prize money and was back in work for 7:30 the following morning."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 2:11 PM on June 13, 2022
That's a 6:30/mile pace. The world record marathon is about 2:02, or about a 4:40 pace. And his marathon time on the road is 2:35, around a 6 minute pace. So this is an amazing achievement, but it's quite different than the pro marathoners. Thus, "He took home £3,500 in prize money and was back in work for 7:30 the following morning."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 2:11 PM on June 13, 2022
One underlying idea here is that the race is a manifestation of humans as endurance hunters. "we" cool by sweating rather than panting and have peculiarities of the foot - short toes, long achilles - that predispose us to long-distance running. Thus sprinting bounding antelope can be hunted to a stand-still by dogged humans. African painted dogs Lycaon pictus use a similar strategy. Palaeo-anthropology is strong on theory but weak on data - they say that all the fossils [mostly teeth] that can be supposed to be our ancestors could fit comfortably in the back of two pick-up trucks. This article a) pours cooling water on the endurance hypothesis and b) cites the race of which we treat.
Note: "we" definitely doesn't include me - I had to walk for a bit to whoop in some air half way through the half mile = 800m races at school; and consequently came last every time. But I'm a couch-groupie for this sort of thing.
There are several short vids up on YT: Man vs Horse Welsh.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:14 PM on June 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
Note: "we" definitely doesn't include me - I had to walk for a bit to whoop in some air half way through the half mile = 800m races at school; and consequently came last every time. But I'm a couch-groupie for this sort of thing.
There are several short vids up on YT: Man vs Horse Welsh.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:14 PM on June 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
First prize is £3,500, second prize is a new career as adhesive.
posted by dr_dank at 2:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 2:16 PM on June 13, 2022 [22 favorites]
Math in the head is hard: thanks everyone.
posted by Rumple at 2:18 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Rumple at 2:18 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
he realized almost immediately that if you are going to chase an animal that is much faster than you, at some point it will run out of sight and you will have to track it. Tracking would require earth soft enough to capture footprints and terrain open enough to give prey little place to hide and disappear.
I hit that and went "um", because while I don't know how authentic the filmed example of San persistence hunting in _Life of Mammals_ is, I definitely know that hunters like my dad track by a lot more than big muddy footprints, and he's just a casual modern. And generally persistence hunting was supposed to be aimed at large animals, and in a open plains/light woodland situation. And then...
If the animals had been scavenged or captured by persistence hunting, they likely would have been either very young or very old. Savanna predators like lions and leopards don’t chase the healthiest, fastest animals of a herd — and presumably persistence hunters wouldn’t either.
Persistence hunting isn't about speed, so that seems kind of irrelevant. In fact, in the San example, they choose a prime bull with huge horns, because they knew he would tire out faster than other targets because of his burden.
This is not to say that persistence hunting actually did drive our evolution or anything, but that article/study doesn't seem a particularly good disproof.
posted by tavella at 2:38 PM on June 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
I hit that and went "um", because while I don't know how authentic the filmed example of San persistence hunting in _Life of Mammals_ is, I definitely know that hunters like my dad track by a lot more than big muddy footprints, and he's just a casual modern. And generally persistence hunting was supposed to be aimed at large animals, and in a open plains/light woodland situation. And then...
If the animals had been scavenged or captured by persistence hunting, they likely would have been either very young or very old. Savanna predators like lions and leopards don’t chase the healthiest, fastest animals of a herd — and presumably persistence hunters wouldn’t either.
Persistence hunting isn't about speed, so that seems kind of irrelevant. In fact, in the San example, they choose a prime bull with huge horns, because they knew he would tire out faster than other targets because of his burden.
This is not to say that persistence hunting actually did drive our evolution or anything, but that article/study doesn't seem a particularly good disproof.
posted by tavella at 2:38 PM on June 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Okay, the term “fell runner” is impossibly cool.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 2:39 PM on June 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 2:39 PM on June 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
First prize is £3,500
Apparently, first place is £500, but it accumulates by £500 every year this particular race runs since it started in 2014, with no winners until now.
posted by eye of newt at 2:44 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Apparently, first place is £500, but it accumulates by £500 every year this particular race runs since it started in 2014, with no winners until now.
posted by eye of newt at 2:44 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Um, from one of TFAs: "Lightfoot is the first runner to have crossed the finish line before a horse in 15 years – Florien Holtinger was the last person to claim victory back in 2007. It’s also only the third time that a human has finished ahead of all the equine racers since the event began back in 1980."
So I'm not sure how they come up with those numbers for the prize.
posted by Naberius at 3:34 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
So I'm not sure how they come up with those numbers for the prize.
posted by Naberius at 3:34 PM on June 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
So I'm not sure how they come up with those numbers for the prize.
Seven years ago a horse ran off with the prize but no one could catch him.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:06 PM on June 13, 2022 [20 favorites]
Seven years ago a horse ran off with the prize but no one could catch him.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:06 PM on June 13, 2022 [20 favorites]
This is just a guess but one article mentions that the original race organizer passed away. I suspect the race changed hands in 2014 for that reason accounting for the difference in records.
posted by muddgirl at 4:32 PM on June 13, 2022
posted by muddgirl at 4:32 PM on June 13, 2022
Okay, the term “fell runner” is impossibly cool.
Tested better in focus groups than "dire jogger". I kid.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:17 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Tested better in focus groups than "dire jogger". I kid.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:17 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
They should've sent a poet
Lightfoot was exhausted before the race had even started.
Also, his childhood pet rabbit was named "Flopsy."
They knew what they were getting.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:20 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Lightfoot was exhausted before the race had even started.
Also, his childhood pet rabbit was named "Flopsy."
They knew what they were getting.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:20 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
To be fair to the horses, they were forced to carry men as well as race them.
posted by Headfullofair at 6:49 PM on June 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Headfullofair at 6:49 PM on June 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Pure Cantor
posted by clavdivs at 7:01 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 7:01 PM on June 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Reading the comments before the article, it took me a surprisingly long time to answer the question “but how do the horses know where to go?”.
posted by hototogisu at 7:55 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by hototogisu at 7:55 PM on June 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
As far as the horse is concerned, the human serves as a very heavy GPS. Or satnav, for British horses.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:01 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:01 PM on June 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Old dirty joke punchline, paraphrased:
"Well, the first time, I told the horse I could beat him in a race. The second time, I showed him."
posted by bartleby at 9:04 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
"Well, the first time, I told the horse I could beat him in a race. The second time, I showed him."
posted by bartleby at 9:04 PM on June 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Does the horse know it's in a race, though
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:05 AM on June 14, 2022
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:05 AM on June 14, 2022
Excellent! A real win for humanity!
There's also a Man Against Horse race in Arizona where only one human has won in 36 years.
Presumably the hotter and the more elevation, the easier it is for the humans. The cooler and flatter, the better for horses.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:26 AM on June 14, 2022
There's also a Man Against Horse race in Arizona where only one human has won in 36 years.
Presumably the hotter and the more elevation, the easier it is for the humans. The cooler and flatter, the better for horses.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:26 AM on June 14, 2022
Did he pass the drug test?
They usually test the horses for the big races. Fair is fair.
posted by rochrobbb at 4:31 AM on June 14, 2022
They usually test the horses for the big races. Fair is fair.
posted by rochrobbb at 4:31 AM on June 14, 2022
It'd be a 2h50m marathon at the same pace, which is certainly a number any 37-year-old non-professional runner would be proud of, but not elite.
So you're saying that pretty much any professional runner (and probably most serious runners in their 20s) would win this kind of race most every time? So I think the theory that humans are excellent and perhaps the best endurance runners on the planet* still rings true.
They also wouldn't have been restricted to a timed race, they just keep running and tracking until whatever they were after flopped over from exhaustion. I kind of love this idea that humans were like ancient terminators. Pretty much every critter with chased after would outrun us for a shorter distance and think they were safe but we just. keep. coming.
That said, long distance running is clearly the worst. Any time I see someone out for a run the look on their face tells me they hate it and human history is riddled with humans inventing ways to not have to run at all.
*The only exception being Alaskan Huskies but only in well below freezing temperatures.
posted by VTX at 6:32 AM on June 14, 2022
So you're saying that pretty much any professional runner (and probably most serious runners in their 20s) would win this kind of race most every time? So I think the theory that humans are excellent and perhaps the best endurance runners on the planet* still rings true.
They also wouldn't have been restricted to a timed race, they just keep running and tracking until whatever they were after flopped over from exhaustion. I kind of love this idea that humans were like ancient terminators. Pretty much every critter with chased after would outrun us for a shorter distance and think they were safe but we just. keep. coming.
That said, long distance running is clearly the worst. Any time I see someone out for a run the look on their face tells me they hate it and human history is riddled with humans inventing ways to not have to run at all.
*The only exception being Alaskan Huskies but only in well below freezing temperatures.
posted by VTX at 6:32 AM on June 14, 2022
Okay, the term “fell runner” is impossibly cool.
You’re not wrong. It sounds like they should be patrolling the moors north of the Shire, protecting the little folk from the cave trolls coming down from the hills of Angmar.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:45 AM on June 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
You’re not wrong. It sounds like they should be patrolling the moors north of the Shire, protecting the little folk from the cave trolls coming down from the hills of Angmar.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:45 AM on June 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
So you're saying that pretty much any professional runner (and probably most serious runners in their 20s) would win this kind of race most every time?
You can't compare the times on trail races and road races: Any given runner is going to go much slower on running on hilly, uneven dirt paths than on a relatively flat road. As I noted above, Lightfoot's road marathon pace was much faster than his pace in this race, but much slower than top marathoners.
If one of the world's top trail runners is a slow marathoner, there are two possibilities: 1) These are different skills. World-class sprinters aren't world-class marathoners, and vice versa. So maybe world-class marathoners would be much slower on trails. 2) Trail running is primarily a hobby, so top runners don't bother to compete in them. If they did, they'd have to adapt somewhat, but they'd then dominate.
The answer seems to be closer to 2: When You Pit Trail Runners Against Road Runners, Who Comes Out On Top?
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:48 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
You can't compare the times on trail races and road races: Any given runner is going to go much slower on running on hilly, uneven dirt paths than on a relatively flat road. As I noted above, Lightfoot's road marathon pace was much faster than his pace in this race, but much slower than top marathoners.
If one of the world's top trail runners is a slow marathoner, there are two possibilities: 1) These are different skills. World-class sprinters aren't world-class marathoners, and vice versa. So maybe world-class marathoners would be much slower on trails. 2) Trail running is primarily a hobby, so top runners don't bother to compete in them. If they did, they'd have to adapt somewhat, but they'd then dominate.
The answer seems to be closer to 2: When You Pit Trail Runners Against Road Runners, Who Comes Out On Top?
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:48 AM on June 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
So you're saying that pretty much any professional runner (and probably most serious runners in their 20s) would win this kind of race most every time?
I'm not sure about this. The human winner Ricky Lightfoot is a champion trail runner and ultrarunner. It's not clear that an elite flat runner would be as good over hills and rough terrain as a specialist trail runner: the skills and physiology aren't necessarily identical. Even if they were faster, they might not be much faster. And on the flat I think a horse would smoke any human.
In Adharanand Finn's book "The Rise of the Ultra Runners" he describes trying to get some elite Kenyan runners to take part in ultramarathons to see how they'd do, but frustratingly we never found out. The arrangments fell through on one race, and on the other the Kenyan pulled out with an injury.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:49 AM on June 14, 2022
I'm not sure about this. The human winner Ricky Lightfoot is a champion trail runner and ultrarunner. It's not clear that an elite flat runner would be as good over hills and rough terrain as a specialist trail runner: the skills and physiology aren't necessarily identical. Even if they were faster, they might not be much faster. And on the flat I think a horse would smoke any human.
In Adharanand Finn's book "The Rise of the Ultra Runners" he describes trying to get some elite Kenyan runners to take part in ultramarathons to see how they'd do, but frustratingly we never found out. The arrangments fell through on one race, and on the other the Kenyan pulled out with an injury.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:49 AM on June 14, 2022
When You Pit Trail Runners Against Road Runners, Who Comes Out On Top?
Wait, so now it's a three-way race between a person, a horse, and a roadrunner?
I feel like the coyotes will want to get in on this action as well.
posted by nickmark at 9:05 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wait, so now it's a three-way race between a person, a horse, and a roadrunner?
I feel like the coyotes will want to get in on this action as well.
posted by nickmark at 9:05 AM on June 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
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