“How could there be only one method?”
August 18, 2022 10:00 AM Subscribe
The Ghost of Workshops Past: How Communism, Conservatism, and the Cold War Still Mold Our Paths Into SFF Writing by S.L. Huang is a long, historically grounded critique of creative writing workshops that follow the University of Iowa model. While the examples Huang takes come primarily from the science fiction and fantasy workshops, her criticisms and proposals are widely applicable. Over the next few days Huang will be sharing various facts and observations she had to cut out of her essay on her Twitter feed, starting with this thread.
Busy reading through this very interesting article, paused to ask this:
I wonder how much the development of self publishing, and how it has disrupted publishing is part of this picture.
My sense has always been that writers who cling to the idea that writing critique has to be harsh in order to be useful are at least partly doing this because they are so powerless in the traditional publishing eco system.
It goes with that whole thing of pride in rejection letters and having a "thick skin" because of the humiliating process of trying to get traditionally published.
It's a way of claiming at least some self respect and pride. When the only way through the gate is by pleasing the gate keepers, it makes sense that people value any chance they have of doing so, even if it means putting up with abuse. "I choose this! It's good for me. It makes me a better writer. You have to be tough to survive" and so on.
But what if writers can sidestep that whole process and no longer have to care what the gatekeepers value?
posted by Zumbador at 10:28 AM on August 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
I wonder how much the development of self publishing, and how it has disrupted publishing is part of this picture.
My sense has always been that writers who cling to the idea that writing critique has to be harsh in order to be useful are at least partly doing this because they are so powerless in the traditional publishing eco system.
It goes with that whole thing of pride in rejection letters and having a "thick skin" because of the humiliating process of trying to get traditionally published.
It's a way of claiming at least some self respect and pride. When the only way through the gate is by pleasing the gate keepers, it makes sense that people value any chance they have of doing so, even if it means putting up with abuse. "I choose this! It's good for me. It makes me a better writer. You have to be tough to survive" and so on.
But what if writers can sidestep that whole process and no longer have to care what the gatekeepers value?
posted by Zumbador at 10:28 AM on August 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is a great article. Lots to ponder and I appreciate how carefully Huang shares sources/resources for further reading
I took a few creative writing classes as an undergrad and while I never had the kind of shitty experiences described below, the critique mode of instruction baffled me. Come to think of it, architecture programs rely on the "brutal" critique as instruction/rite of passage.
I took a few creative writing classes as an undergrad and while I never had the kind of shitty experiences described below, the critique mode of instruction baffled me. Come to think of it, architecture programs rely on the "brutal" critique as instruction/rite of passage.
In The Anti-Racist Writing Workshop, Chavez identifies the silencing rule of workshop as part of a larger institutional structure that silences writers of color in a much larger sense, leading to our omission at all levels of education and publishing. In the widely-shared essay “Unsilencing the Writing Workshop”, Beth Nguyen details how an entire critique session on one of her pieces was taken up by a debate over whether readers would know what dim sum was; she contends: “This is also the kind of unchecked, micro-aggressive yet forceful imbalance of power that is the typical workshop environment. It is undoubtedly experienced in some way by everyone but profoundly so for writers of color, especially since creative writing programs, nationally, are 74 percent white.” In her article “Voice of Authority: Theorizing Creative Writing Pedagogy,” Rosalie Morales Kearns additionally makes the case that the gag rule’s purported benefits tend to favor those who are societally privileged, and that those without such privilege “may well already feel silenced by the larger society in general and by their educational experiences in particular before they even walk into a creative writing workshop. The gag rule silences those who already feel silenced, thus furthering their feelings of alienation and disempowerment.”posted by spamandkimchi at 11:22 AM on August 18, 2022
I wonder how much the development of self publishing, and how it has disrupted publishing is part of this picture.
I suspect not a lot, because there have always been people who choose not to go the workshop route, and still become writers, and publish, either through traditional means or through self-publication. My own route was not through workshops, in no small part because coming up I didn't see the value of peer critique; my thinking was that if I was going to pay to get insight from professional writers, then I wanted my critiques from them, not from a bunch of other people who had no idea what they were doing (i.e., my peers). This point of view, to be clear, reflected my own monstrous ego rather more than it reflected the value of peer critique. I became part of the fiction (and science fiction) writing community only after I sold my first two novels.
In the time since I have taught at both Viable Paradise and Clarion, and as an instructor I can say that there is some real value to the model, including a) access to professionals who are currently working writers and understand their field, b) the development of a peer group that you can be a part of moving forward, c) the "network" of workshop alumni who are endemic in the field. The critiquing can also be useful but a lot is dependent on the group you're with, and I don't have any reason to disagree with SL Huang's assessment of its pitfalls. I don't see any reason not to change things up.
Workshops (in the science fiction/fantasy world) aren't to my mind "gatekeeping" institutions, and if they are they're not particularly good ones, since lots of people get in to the field without them. They can, however, be a leg up, or a faster track into community integration.
posted by jscalzi at 1:32 PM on August 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
I suspect not a lot, because there have always been people who choose not to go the workshop route, and still become writers, and publish, either through traditional means or through self-publication. My own route was not through workshops, in no small part because coming up I didn't see the value of peer critique; my thinking was that if I was going to pay to get insight from professional writers, then I wanted my critiques from them, not from a bunch of other people who had no idea what they were doing (i.e., my peers). This point of view, to be clear, reflected my own monstrous ego rather more than it reflected the value of peer critique. I became part of the fiction (and science fiction) writing community only after I sold my first two novels.
In the time since I have taught at both Viable Paradise and Clarion, and as an instructor I can say that there is some real value to the model, including a) access to professionals who are currently working writers and understand their field, b) the development of a peer group that you can be a part of moving forward, c) the "network" of workshop alumni who are endemic in the field. The critiquing can also be useful but a lot is dependent on the group you're with, and I don't have any reason to disagree with SL Huang's assessment of its pitfalls. I don't see any reason not to change things up.
Workshops (in the science fiction/fantasy world) aren't to my mind "gatekeeping" institutions, and if they are they're not particularly good ones, since lots of people get in to the field without them. They can, however, be a leg up, or a faster track into community integration.
posted by jscalzi at 1:32 PM on August 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
Started reading and was thinking “wow, these workshops don’t seem to know or follow the absolute basics of good peer review training” (see, eg., the nice intro video No One Writes Alone from MIT’s Writing Across the Curriculum initiative). But there’s a bit more to it than that - eg. I can see where some of the issues around representation in the group doing the peer review are still present with the guidelines given in the video I linked. Would be interesting to see more about that in the more general peer review/peer feedback (in the classroom or beyond) context.
posted by eviemath at 2:35 PM on August 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 2:35 PM on August 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Maybe it’s just me,
but the next stanza is where I start to have a problem.
I mean how can the evening bump into the stars?
And what’s an obbligato of snow?
Also, I roam the decaffeinated streets.
At that point I’m lost. I need help.
The other thing that throws me off,
and maybe this is just me,
is the way the scene keeps shifting around.
First, we’re in this big aerodrome
and the speaker is inspecting a row of dirigibles,
which makes me think this could be a dream."
-Billy Collins, Workshop
I was lucky, grandmother paid for 2/3 of my education. she didn't understand the idea of workshop and was certainly not going to pay for a trip out to Iowa and I have to agree with her. But I get a poetry workshop is not like a science fiction workshop.
I would imagine.
perhaps it's the absence of a band saw.
From The Article:
"Because three-quarters of a century ago, a Cold Warrior named Paul Engle was wildly, ideologically successful in spreading that method to every corner of a brand-new field, all by managing to sell it as a weapon against the Red Scare."
Oh, that's it...
"Vonnegut described Engle in a 1967 letter in this fashion: "The former head, Paul Engle, is still around, is a hayseed clown, a foxy grandpa, a terrific promoter, who, if you listen closely, talks like a man with a paper asshole"
This article uses bare URLs, which may be threatened by link rot. (August 2022)
posted by clavdivs at 4:38 PM on August 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
but the next stanza is where I start to have a problem.
I mean how can the evening bump into the stars?
And what’s an obbligato of snow?
Also, I roam the decaffeinated streets.
At that point I’m lost. I need help.
The other thing that throws me off,
and maybe this is just me,
is the way the scene keeps shifting around.
First, we’re in this big aerodrome
and the speaker is inspecting a row of dirigibles,
which makes me think this could be a dream."
-Billy Collins, Workshop
I was lucky, grandmother paid for 2/3 of my education. she didn't understand the idea of workshop and was certainly not going to pay for a trip out to Iowa and I have to agree with her. But I get a poetry workshop is not like a science fiction workshop.
I would imagine.
perhaps it's the absence of a band saw.
From The Article:
"Because three-quarters of a century ago, a Cold Warrior named Paul Engle was wildly, ideologically successful in spreading that method to every corner of a brand-new field, all by managing to sell it as a weapon against the Red Scare."
Oh, that's it...
"Vonnegut described Engle in a 1967 letter in this fashion: "The former head, Paul Engle, is still around, is a hayseed clown, a foxy grandpa, a terrific promoter, who, if you listen closely, talks like a man with a paper asshole"
This article uses bare URLs, which may be threatened by link rot. (August 2022)
posted by clavdivs at 4:38 PM on August 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
I suspect not a lot, because there have always been people who choose not to go the workshop route, and still become writers, and publish, either through traditional means or through self-publication.
Absolutely. I didn't mean that workshops are gatekeepers (how would that even work?) but that the culture among writers of celebrating harsh criticism and the ability to take it might be as a result of having to survive trad publishing gatekeeping.
Weirdly enough I often get urged to have my books trad published, and when I ask why, I'm told so that I can be eligible for awards and attend workshops. I mean... who cares?
posted by Zumbador at 9:46 PM on August 18, 2022
Absolutely. I didn't mean that workshops are gatekeepers (how would that even work?) but that the culture among writers of celebrating harsh criticism and the ability to take it might be as a result of having to survive trad publishing gatekeeping.
Weirdly enough I often get urged to have my books trad published, and when I ask why, I'm told so that I can be eligible for awards and attend workshops. I mean... who cares?
posted by Zumbador at 9:46 PM on August 18, 2022
I have mixed feelings about the cone of silence in workshop. I absolutely agree that it makes the commentary prone to derail, where the readers are not the intended audience and you wind up with a lot of unhelpful "feedback." I posted a question on here a while ago about some unhelpful comments I got from such a workshop, and y'all were really good about how I could sort through and make it actionable.
But I've also been in workshops where the writer is an active participant and spends the entire time arguing with the readers about how he really meant this other thing. Which, ok, but at some point the words on the page are going to have to speak for themselves, y'know?
So it probably depends on where the piece is in its development -- is this a work-in-progress, or something almost ready to send out into the world with a little final polishing? And very much on the temperament of the instructor and other participants.
I co-facilitate a workshop for healthcare workers, and we've adopted a modified cone of silence (mesh of silence?). The writer asks for the critique to focus on specific things (e.g. "does this ending make sense in the context of the piece?") and then is mostly silent except for brief responses to clarifying questions. We've been meeting for the last three years, with a solid group of regulars plus occasional walk-ins, so there is a degree of trust and shared experience that's harder to come by in your typical 6- or 8-week workshop. And there isn't the same ego-driven "tear 'em all down" harshness I hear out of MFA programs.
posted by basalganglia at 3:53 AM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
But I've also been in workshops where the writer is an active participant and spends the entire time arguing with the readers about how he really meant this other thing. Which, ok, but at some point the words on the page are going to have to speak for themselves, y'know?
So it probably depends on where the piece is in its development -- is this a work-in-progress, or something almost ready to send out into the world with a little final polishing? And very much on the temperament of the instructor and other participants.
I co-facilitate a workshop for healthcare workers, and we've adopted a modified cone of silence (mesh of silence?). The writer asks for the critique to focus on specific things (e.g. "does this ending make sense in the context of the piece?") and then is mostly silent except for brief responses to clarifying questions. We've been meeting for the last three years, with a solid group of regulars plus occasional walk-ins, so there is a degree of trust and shared experience that's harder to come by in your typical 6- or 8-week workshop. And there isn't the same ego-driven "tear 'em all down" harshness I hear out of MFA programs.
posted by basalganglia at 3:53 AM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
I didn't mean that workshops are gatekeepers (how would that even work?)
Writing is such a difficult thing to make a career of, that your support network can make or break you, and workshops tend to provide that network, and the more prestigious/more gatekept the workshop, the more valuable (in terms of connections to publishers/editors/professional writers) the workshop is to the careers of its participants. So while of course workshops aren't gatekeepers, being unable to do them (for money/time off/childcare/other reasons) can function in a similar way.
posted by joannemerriam at 7:40 AM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
Writing is such a difficult thing to make a career of, that your support network can make or break you, and workshops tend to provide that network, and the more prestigious/more gatekept the workshop, the more valuable (in terms of connections to publishers/editors/professional writers) the workshop is to the careers of its participants. So while of course workshops aren't gatekeepers, being unable to do them (for money/time off/childcare/other reasons) can function in a similar way.
posted by joannemerriam at 7:40 AM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
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