What if we call it Boisterous Boundaries?
August 23, 2022 10:53 AM Subscribe
What is 'quiet quitting,' and how it may be a misnomer for setting boundaries at work Popularized on TikTok, 'Quiet Quitting' is closing your laptop at 5 p.m. Doing only your assigned tasks. Spending more time with family.
More from WaPo on what managers need to know: The term is a bit of a misnomer, because quiet quitters aren’t walking away from their jobs. Instead they’re renouncing hustle culture.
CNN.com has the employee view: Employees still excel at their jobs, but they aren't working overtime to do it, former engineering consultant Paige West told CNN. "While I was in my 9-to-5 job, I was still working my 40 hours a week. I was still fulfilling my job duties. I was just taking away that feeling of stress I had," she said.
CBSNews asks if it is people being "lazy" or smartening up?: But some experts suggest that quiet quitting shows that more workers are merely questioning the work compact and whether their bosses are living up to their end of the bargain. Some employees are recognizing their managers didn't go "above and beyond" for them during the pandemic.
And the Root points out that this is something for white people: Black people aren’t talking about this because for most people of color, “quiet quitting” is simply not a choice. The last ones hired and the first ones fired, we can’t afford to be caught slippin’ on the job, even if what we consider slippin’ is normal output from our co-workers.
More from WaPo on what managers need to know: The term is a bit of a misnomer, because quiet quitters aren’t walking away from their jobs. Instead they’re renouncing hustle culture.
CNN.com has the employee view: Employees still excel at their jobs, but they aren't working overtime to do it, former engineering consultant Paige West told CNN. "While I was in my 9-to-5 job, I was still working my 40 hours a week. I was still fulfilling my job duties. I was just taking away that feeling of stress I had," she said.
CBSNews asks if it is people being "lazy" or smartening up?: But some experts suggest that quiet quitting shows that more workers are merely questioning the work compact and whether their bosses are living up to their end of the bargain. Some employees are recognizing their managers didn't go "above and beyond" for them during the pandemic.
And the Root points out that this is something for white people: Black people aren’t talking about this because for most people of color, “quiet quitting” is simply not a choice. The last ones hired and the first ones fired, we can’t afford to be caught slippin’ on the job, even if what we consider slippin’ is normal output from our co-workers.
Also "may be a misnomer", lol. Keep on NPRing, NPR.
posted by supercres at 10:58 AM on August 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by supercres at 10:58 AM on August 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
I've seen people retorting that it should be called "acting your wage", which works a lot better in my estimation.
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on August 23, 2022 [134 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on August 23, 2022 [134 favorites]
It's an attempt at pathologizing healthy behavior by corporate spin doctors.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:04 AM on August 23, 2022 [73 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:04 AM on August 23, 2022 [73 favorites]
The always readable Ed Zitron has thoughts about this horsecrap.
posted by riotnrrd at 11:07 AM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by riotnrrd at 11:07 AM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
This kind of talk is why we need a federal maximum wage.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 11:07 AM on August 23, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 11:07 AM on August 23, 2022 [17 favorites]
What, the time-tested phrase "work/life balance" suddenly isn't good enough for The Kids?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:13 AM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:13 AM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
I liked what Anne Helen Petersen had to say about this. She does a good job of hitting key critiques in a short piece and connecting the dots with organizing.
posted by EvaDestruction at 11:16 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by EvaDestruction at 11:16 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am passionate about this subject. Lockdown changed me. My quality of life working from home skyrocketed. Now my office is requiring 3 days a week in office and even that feels like a burden. I no longer grant work my emotional energy. I care about my job, but I used to be so angry about aspects of it. Full of rage during my train and bus commute. I do not want to go back there. They cannot have access to me like that. I do my work, but my life is not at the office. Work is NOT the focus of my life. Period.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:17 AM on August 23, 2022 [83 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:17 AM on August 23, 2022 [83 favorites]
What, the time-tested phrase "work/life balance" suddenly isn't good enough for The Kids?
Ha, I got an offer that was contingent, literally in writing "expected 50-55 hour work weeks" and I asked with all seriousness if that included a 20% increase in pay. I got a long-winded speech that was essentially no, which was ironically my answer to the offer.
posted by geoff. at 11:18 AM on August 23, 2022 [66 favorites]
Ha, I got an offer that was contingent, literally in writing "expected 50-55 hour work weeks" and I asked with all seriousness if that included a 20% increase in pay. I got a long-winded speech that was essentially no, which was ironically my answer to the offer.
posted by geoff. at 11:18 AM on August 23, 2022 [66 favorites]
Having worked* in a high-rise near another high-rise and seen how many people at their desks are actually playing solitaire, I doubt that "quiet quitting" is actually a new thing. It's just that the pandemic and working from home caused employers to start trying to monitor their employees' "productivity" in new ways, and the same thing caused employees to realize how little time they had left for getting their actual work (i.e. maintaining their lives) accomplished.
*acted as a temporary office worker to cover the desks of people who were out, so that it would look like there was someone there.
posted by Peach at 11:19 AM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
*acted as a temporary office worker to cover the desks of people who were out, so that it would look like there was someone there.
posted by Peach at 11:19 AM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
Intel (the chip manufacting company) decided that running their data centers, performing any IT task or managing employee assigned workstations was a low priority and contracted it out. I was one of those contracted data center employees being paid a laughably low hourly wage with no benefits and no allowance for overtime.
I was constantly being harassed on my lunch, before or after my shift by salaried engineers to perform additional tasks with the argument being "well I'm here working extra hours on the project and it won't get done without your help". I told them I was not in the clock and if the project was so important they should ask their supervisor for help.
Intel made it very clear to me that they would never go the extra mile for me so why should I go the extra mile for them.? They are a billion dollar company, not a charity.
All this quiet quitting bellyaching is the natural result of decades of companies hollowing out investment in their workforce and suddenly they act offended when employees hold up their end of the bargain.
posted by kzin602 at 11:22 AM on August 23, 2022 [62 favorites]
I was constantly being harassed on my lunch, before or after my shift by salaried engineers to perform additional tasks with the argument being "well I'm here working extra hours on the project and it won't get done without your help". I told them I was not in the clock and if the project was so important they should ask their supervisor for help.
Intel made it very clear to me that they would never go the extra mile for me so why should I go the extra mile for them.? They are a billion dollar company, not a charity.
All this quiet quitting bellyaching is the natural result of decades of companies hollowing out investment in their workforce and suddenly they act offended when employees hold up their end of the bargain.
posted by kzin602 at 11:22 AM on August 23, 2022 [62 favorites]
@randy_miller:
A lot of talk about “quiet quitting” but very little talk about “quiet firing” which is when you don’t give someone a raise in 5 years even though they keep doing everything you ask them to.posted by JoeZydeco at 11:24 AM on August 23, 2022 [125 favorites]
Every time I see another 'quiet quitting' headline, I fantasize even more extravagantly about flipping some tables.
posted by kkar at 11:31 AM on August 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by kkar at 11:31 AM on August 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
That's what "quiet quitting" is? Gah. I've been doing that for decades, with no pushback. Now, if something came up at work, I'd help out, but not as part of my everyday life.
I was in the office the weekend before Y2K with the rest of my team. No problem.
When a critical server started backing up, I spent my days working on fixing the problem, and my evenings running a special batch job to try to mitigate the damage. (And my boss was giving daily progress reports to his boss.) If something needed to be done over the weekend, I would do it because I had VPN set up (back when it was new).
Someone needs to show these people ea_spouse.
posted by Spike Glee at 11:33 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
I was in the office the weekend before Y2K with the rest of my team. No problem.
When a critical server started backing up, I spent my days working on fixing the problem, and my evenings running a special batch job to try to mitigate the damage. (And my boss was giving daily progress reports to his boss.) If something needed to be done over the weekend, I would do it because I had VPN set up (back when it was new).
Someone needs to show these people ea_spouse.
posted by Spike Glee at 11:33 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Such a weird dang name. I hate it, and I hate whoever decided to call it that.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:35 AM on August 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:35 AM on August 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
I vote we rename it “Punching OUT!!!”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:36 AM on August 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:36 AM on August 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
My theory of the case: the existential threat of the pandemic brought people to a place of contemplation and at the same time, the isolation to really contemplate. Stopping to think hasn't been possible for many folks. They have thought about life and what matters to them. Based on those answers, we have seen a spectrum of response. In my opinion, the though-line is "does this matter to me?" And in many cases, probably my own, there are many, many things that do not matter to me. Based on the requirements, am I achieving the goal? Does it matter to me to achieve more than the goal? Does anyone else even care if I do or I don't?
Every day, every employer has the opportunity to work with employees and make their lives...better? Maybe...ok? What would matter to this person? Who are they? These questions do not really affect the ledger until, now, they do. The lack of humanity baked into current accepted business practices is thin. The low bar of "is it against the law?" seems to be where we are. The question of "is this the right thing to do" is seemingly unasked.
From a business perspective, the convulsive response has not affected what they would like employees do, performance wise. They decry people who want to be treated as humans because it affects their bottom line. How much value do I have to bring to the work compact to fulfil it?
The leveraged position is in the hands of workers more so than before and it is very frustrating to businesses. I'd say that better businesses have adapted in ways to keep people more happy than not but there are those who have not accepted the marketplace. Anecdotally, I was speaking to someone deep in the restaurant industry and she explained that the owners/managers of restaurants who were/are assholes to their staff have found that nobody will work for them now. Many have closed. The bit of kindness and care that some restaurants have shown to their staff have allowed those places to survive.
It is an interesting time to be alive. Thanks for posting!
posted by zerobyproxy at 11:40 AM on August 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
Every day, every employer has the opportunity to work with employees and make their lives...better? Maybe...ok? What would matter to this person? Who are they? These questions do not really affect the ledger until, now, they do. The lack of humanity baked into current accepted business practices is thin. The low bar of "is it against the law?" seems to be where we are. The question of "is this the right thing to do" is seemingly unasked.
From a business perspective, the convulsive response has not affected what they would like employees do, performance wise. They decry people who want to be treated as humans because it affects their bottom line. How much value do I have to bring to the work compact to fulfil it?
The leveraged position is in the hands of workers more so than before and it is very frustrating to businesses. I'd say that better businesses have adapted in ways to keep people more happy than not but there are those who have not accepted the marketplace. Anecdotally, I was speaking to someone deep in the restaurant industry and she explained that the owners/managers of restaurants who were/are assholes to their staff have found that nobody will work for them now. Many have closed. The bit of kindness and care that some restaurants have shown to their staff have allowed those places to survive.
It is an interesting time to be alive. Thanks for posting!
posted by zerobyproxy at 11:40 AM on August 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
Guys it's called WORK TO RULE and it's a union tactic.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 11:45 AM on August 23, 2022 [80 favorites]
posted by Lawn Beaver at 11:45 AM on August 23, 2022 [80 favorites]
(Like, to continue my multi-comment rant here on an obvious point: the problem with the phrase is that it cedes the idea that “hustle culture” is the equivalent of work, while “quitting” just means “working enough hours.” If anything that seems to exacerbate the idea that overwork is/should be the accepted norm. Claim the norm for yourself! Don’t give it to the opposition.)
posted by Going To Maine at 11:46 AM on August 23, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:46 AM on August 23, 2022 [26 favorites]
Echoing Lawn Beaver, my first thought on reading the article was 'has somebody re-invented work-to-rule but given it a much stupider name'?
posted by misteraitch at 11:56 AM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by misteraitch at 11:56 AM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
Ha, I got an offer that was contingent, literally in writing "expected 50-55 hour work weeks"
Last time I was looking for work, I interviewed with SpaceX. The HR rep told me that employees "generally worked 60-80 hours a week" except around launch windows when it could be even higher. She also admitted that they aim to pay "around 90% of industry average" because "you make up for it stock options." Yup, no thanks.
posted by backseatpilot at 11:57 AM on August 23, 2022 [21 favorites]
Last time I was looking for work, I interviewed with SpaceX. The HR rep told me that employees "generally worked 60-80 hours a week" except around launch windows when it could be even higher. She also admitted that they aim to pay "around 90% of industry average" because "you make up for it stock options." Yup, no thanks.
posted by backseatpilot at 11:57 AM on August 23, 2022 [21 favorites]
Right out of grad school I was putting in late hours and weekend hours and at some point, just stopped and went only 9-5 and... nothing happened. Productivity in terms of what mattered didn't really change. The big things still got done when they were supposed to get done. I still received good reviews. What I was doing in the off hours was perfecting at the edges and trying to cool down my own anxiety. I was working long. I wasn't working hard and I wasn't working smart.
(This may not work as well for people who crank out countable things, or do billable hours, etc, but for a lot of white-collar work, "extra" can be self imposed and might not matter to anyone but yourself).
posted by everythings_interrelated at 11:57 AM on August 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
(This may not work as well for people who crank out countable things, or do billable hours, etc, but for a lot of white-collar work, "extra" can be self imposed and might not matter to anyone but yourself).
posted by everythings_interrelated at 11:57 AM on August 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
Guys it's called WORK TO RULE and it's a union tactic.
Don't conflate intentional tactics with just not killing yourself.
posted by Etrigan at 11:59 AM on August 23, 2022 [22 favorites]
Don't conflate intentional tactics with just not killing yourself.
posted by Etrigan at 11:59 AM on August 23, 2022 [22 favorites]
'Quiet Quitting' is closing your laptop at 5 p.m. Doing only your assigned tasks. Spending more time with family.
Huh... here in the Netherlands we just call that .... work.
posted by Pendragon at 12:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [65 favorites]
Huh... here in the Netherlands we just call that .... work.
posted by Pendragon at 12:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [65 favorites]
I had a salary job with a consulting firm. The main work metric was billable hours and utilization. My role had a utilization requirement of 95% billable hours. 40 hr/week* 95% = 38 billable hours per week. It wasn't too hard to maintain given the contracts we had, so I had no problem. Generally I was working at 100% utilization.
Somewhere along the way labor laws changed. In the beginning of a new year, my boss made me to take 2-15 minute breaks and bill them to overhead every day. This automatically dropped my utilization to 92.5% I wasn't worried because my boss told me to do it. Four months later he asked me to stop, no reason given. So I immediately went back to working 100% utilization.
Reviews were in October, and I got a poor review because my utilization for the year to date was below 95%. It was only 4 months with the breaks, but even by the end of the year 2 months after the review, my average was at 94.9%. I pointed this out to my boss and he didn't care.
Any minimal sense of company loyalty towards them or any other company afterwards died with that review. I started working a straight 40 hours a week, arriving and leaving on time, no extra work. If they wanted more from me they were going to have to pay for it.
I did eventually leave and put in my 2 weeks. They kept me around but didn't given me any more work. I billed 0% utilization for 2 weeks and it felt good. It was a good opportunity to renew several certifications that I still use in later positions with my soon to be former employer paying for it.
posted by Badgermann at 12:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [32 favorites]
Somewhere along the way labor laws changed. In the beginning of a new year, my boss made me to take 2-15 minute breaks and bill them to overhead every day. This automatically dropped my utilization to 92.5% I wasn't worried because my boss told me to do it. Four months later he asked me to stop, no reason given. So I immediately went back to working 100% utilization.
Reviews were in October, and I got a poor review because my utilization for the year to date was below 95%. It was only 4 months with the breaks, but even by the end of the year 2 months after the review, my average was at 94.9%. I pointed this out to my boss and he didn't care.
Any minimal sense of company loyalty towards them or any other company afterwards died with that review. I started working a straight 40 hours a week, arriving and leaving on time, no extra work. If they wanted more from me they were going to have to pay for it.
I did eventually leave and put in my 2 weeks. They kept me around but didn't given me any more work. I billed 0% utilization for 2 weeks and it felt good. It was a good opportunity to renew several certifications that I still use in later positions with my soon to be former employer paying for it.
posted by Badgermann at 12:18 PM on August 23, 2022 [32 favorites]
My immediate reaction to this was, "Nice try, cop HR" -- and nothing I have seen since has changed my mind.
I had thought I was just getting old enough to care more about my own priority than my boss's, but having a cool name for it is also fine.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:19 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
I had thought I was just getting old enough to care more about my own priority than my boss's, but having a cool name for it is also fine.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:19 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
My take has been that “quiet quitting” may turn out to be an astroturf phrase, along with “do what you love” and confusing terms like “team” and “family” with “coworkers.” Business creates terms like these in order to leverage the Protestant work ethic inherent in Americans to eek out additional labor/productivity through guilt. “Doing only the job requirement” becomes “quitting.” And we’re not quitters, right?
I’ve heard folks suggest this is “work/life balance.” It’s push back. I’ve had many executives in the same presentation say he (always a he) values work/life balance, then say “extra is expected” (“10% overtime should be the norm—if you want to work 40 hours, you should work retail”).
Me? I’m doing my job. I’ll do a good job. But my days of extra are long behind me. Companies view their employees as resources, and will get as much value out of them for no incremental cost that they can.
posted by MrGuilt at 12:29 PM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
I’ve heard folks suggest this is “work/life balance.” It’s push back. I’ve had many executives in the same presentation say he (always a he) values work/life balance, then say “extra is expected” (“10% overtime should be the norm—if you want to work 40 hours, you should work retail”).
Me? I’m doing my job. I’ll do a good job. But my days of extra are long behind me. Companies view their employees as resources, and will get as much value out of them for no incremental cost that they can.
posted by MrGuilt at 12:29 PM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
Guys it's called WORK TO RULE and it's a union tactic.
Don't conflate intentional tactics with just not killing yourself.
This. Work to Rule relies on the power of collective action to demonstrate that things go badly for the company when a body of workers are disengaged. "Quiet quitting" is an individual choice that improves a worker's situation, but isn't going to have a larger impact.
posted by EvaDestruction at 12:30 PM on August 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
Don't conflate intentional tactics with just not killing yourself.
This. Work to Rule relies on the power of collective action to demonstrate that things go badly for the company when a body of workers are disengaged. "Quiet quitting" is an individual choice that improves a worker's situation, but isn't going to have a larger impact.
posted by EvaDestruction at 12:30 PM on August 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
“10% overtime should be the norm—if you want to work 40 hours, you should work retail”
Oh my god. Now I'm about to flip a table. Has this person ever worked retail?? Are they familiar with the concept of scheduling "full time" workers for only 30-31 hours per week so they won't be eligible for benefits? And/or anything else about working retail? It's truly not the easy-street vacation job that white-collar bosses seem to think it is.
posted by knotty knots at 12:34 PM on August 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
Oh my god. Now I'm about to flip a table. Has this person ever worked retail?? Are they familiar with the concept of scheduling "full time" workers for only 30-31 hours per week so they won't be eligible for benefits? And/or anything else about working retail? It's truly not the easy-street vacation job that white-collar bosses seem to think it is.
posted by knotty knots at 12:34 PM on August 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
I doubt that "quiet quitting" is actually a new thing.
Definitely not.
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:34 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
Definitely not.
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:34 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
"I would prefer not to."
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:38 PM on August 23, 2022 [48 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:38 PM on August 23, 2022 [48 favorites]
This dystopian spin has really overtaken my social networks of late. People are exhausted. Like, really, really exhausted. And scared. More friends than ever before who never explored climate change or global events are mentioning the State of Things with concern than ever would before 2020.
This isn’t a real issue. There are plenty of real issues, including companies taking advantage of their employees for the benefit of the wealthy.
posted by glaucon at 12:45 PM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
This isn’t a real issue. There are plenty of real issues, including companies taking advantage of their employees for the benefit of the wealthy.
posted by glaucon at 12:45 PM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
I firmly believe that "work-life balance" is a joke, especially when the people who tout it make significantly more money than you and just bandy that phrase around so as to seem like a good place to work. It's bullshit.
I quit a permanent PT position (another piece of bullshit where you work FT time hours but get no FT benefits) in a hospital in late 2020 (the pandemic wasn't the catalyst; it was a toxic work environment from the jump) because I was expected to be So Fucking Loyal and Grateful to have a better paid job than I ever had as an adult. Especially in a town where good paying jobs are scarce unless you have some fancy degree or know someone who knows someone. It was hard. It was good money. But the hours and the stress left me with a resurgence of chronic migraines, unable to engage in my life outside of the hospital because again I could be asked to backfill any minute.
I hate that it took a breakdown to make me quit. A stupid overdue realization that a lot of jobs do not care about you.
I now work casually at a healthcare clinic, and while I like it better, I am still under no illusion that I am cared about. And it took my breakdown to make me draw very clear boundaries about what I will do and when I will be there to do them. I admit I speak from the privilege of someone whose partner was supportive in me exploring this. I am very grateful for that.
posted by Kitteh at 12:47 PM on August 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
I quit a permanent PT position (another piece of bullshit where you work FT time hours but get no FT benefits) in a hospital in late 2020 (the pandemic wasn't the catalyst; it was a toxic work environment from the jump) because I was expected to be So Fucking Loyal and Grateful to have a better paid job than I ever had as an adult. Especially in a town where good paying jobs are scarce unless you have some fancy degree or know someone who knows someone. It was hard. It was good money. But the hours and the stress left me with a resurgence of chronic migraines, unable to engage in my life outside of the hospital because again I could be asked to backfill any minute.
I hate that it took a breakdown to make me quit. A stupid overdue realization that a lot of jobs do not care about you.
I now work casually at a healthcare clinic, and while I like it better, I am still under no illusion that I am cared about. And it took my breakdown to make me draw very clear boundaries about what I will do and when I will be there to do them. I admit I speak from the privilege of someone whose partner was supportive in me exploring this. I am very grateful for that.
posted by Kitteh at 12:47 PM on August 23, 2022 [14 favorites]
ugh. my current contract is probably ending in a few weeks. (the uncertainty adds to the fun!) and I JUST.LOVE. being an Old Chicktm in tech looking for a new job. ughhhh.
"where do you see yourself in 5 years?" on a beach in Tahiti, mofo. I'm just eking out a few more years until I can retire and I will most certainly NOT be working more that 40 hours per week (should I be so lucky to be offered a job at all lol...)
posted by supermedusa at 12:48 PM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
"where do you see yourself in 5 years?" on a beach in Tahiti, mofo. I'm just eking out a few more years until I can retire and I will most certainly NOT be working more that 40 hours per week (should I be so lucky to be offered a job at all lol...)
posted by supermedusa at 12:48 PM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
The fact that the terms this is being described in conflate not going above and beyond for your job with literally not doing your job at all speaks volumes about the attitudes of capitalism. If you're not doing everything, you're as good as doing nothing? Nice try, false dichotomy.
posted by terretu at 12:49 PM on August 23, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by terretu at 12:49 PM on August 23, 2022 [34 favorites]
Like, to continue my multi-comment rant here on an obvious point: the problem with the phrase is that it cedes the idea that “hustle culture” is the equivalent of work, while “quitting” just means “working enough hours.” If anything that seems to exacerbate the idea that overwork is/should be the accepted norm.
Yes; these managers are literally complaining because their workers won't do extra work for no pay.
posted by Gelatin at 12:51 PM on August 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
Yes; these managers are literally complaining because their workers won't do extra work for no pay.
posted by Gelatin at 12:51 PM on August 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
I maintain what I call the "Ten Percent Rule" for my teams. Any swing in time of 10% or less is fine. We have a 40 hour standard week, and people are free to flex in that. Four 9s, M-Th, and 4 hours on Friday is the norm. Work 36 hours to 44 hours in a week, and there's no problem. If it's less than 36 hours, consider taking a day off next time. If it's more than 44, there should be a very good reason that the person doing it agreed to take on, themselves. If either of those happen more than once in a month, that's something to address.
There is nothing in the rule about, "Getting the job done." That's assumed. If timelines and team sizes need to be adjusted to make that possible, that's on management, not individuals.
There are no quiet quitters when everyone is pleased with their hours, the expectations placed on them, and their compensation. I've had zero employee turnover in more than three years.
This is not hard, but some people have decided to make it hard.
posted by Revvy at 12:52 PM on August 23, 2022 [20 favorites]
There is nothing in the rule about, "Getting the job done." That's assumed. If timelines and team sizes need to be adjusted to make that possible, that's on management, not individuals.
There are no quiet quitters when everyone is pleased with their hours, the expectations placed on them, and their compensation. I've had zero employee turnover in more than three years.
This is not hard, but some people have decided to make it hard.
posted by Revvy at 12:52 PM on August 23, 2022 [20 favorites]
It's weird not seeing the words "wage theft" anywhere in any of those articles, or in this thread.
Because that's what we're talking about.
posted by mhoye at 1:07 PM on August 23, 2022 [63 favorites]
Because that's what we're talking about.
posted by mhoye at 1:07 PM on August 23, 2022 [63 favorites]
The joke when I was a youngun’ was “putting in extra work here is like pissing yourself in black jeans. You get a warm feeling, but nobody notices.”
posted by doubtfulpalace at 1:17 PM on August 23, 2022 [44 favorites]
posted by doubtfulpalace at 1:17 PM on August 23, 2022 [44 favorites]
I have many opinions on this concept and these articles. I just find that there is a whole slew of these types of articles coming out right now that are passive aggressively trying to get people to get back into the office (trust us, you'll like it better!!) and do whatever their boss says, and thankfully people are saying, uh, no??
posted by Toddles at 1:20 PM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 1:20 PM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
There is nothing in the rule about, "Getting the job done." That's assumed.
Everyone works that way. It's baked into the assumption of exempt employees: you are given a chunk of work based on a job description, and you're expected to do it. There is some expectation it will average to a reasonable amount, some weeks taking more, offset by weeks that take less. I had IT jobs where there was on-call responsibility and maintenance windows, but no one sweat if those days you were in a bit late or left a bit early (at least that was the idea).
The problem is you have folks my my aforementioned "10% should be standard" (who was a mild example compared to others at that company) or the commenter who said SpaceX normal week was 60-80 hours. Job descriptions that include the phrase "other duties as assigned." They set the bar high, so "getting the job done" is challenging. Work/Life balance means taking an hour break to see your kid's soccer game, then going to your "night job" (more work at home (for no additional pay).
When I hear folks "quiet quitting," it's not "doing the bare minimum" (as the media tends to describe it, suggesting they are slackers) or "work to rule" (which sounds more like malicious compliance to achieve and ends). It's all about setting boundaries. People don't want to do a bad job or cause problems. They just don't want to be taken advantage of.
It's weird not seeing the words "wage theft" anywhere in any of those articles, or in this thread.
My rough understanding this is more of an obvious issue for hourly employees. "Set up your station before clocking in" (as though setting up. your station was something you do as a hobby). It's a bit fuzzier for exempt employees. Ostensibly, working outside your job description might be wage theft. But if there are fuzzy terms ("manage servers, to include but not limited to...") or even straight up "other duties as assigned" language in the job description, it becomes tricky.
posted by MrGuilt at 1:22 PM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
Everyone works that way. It's baked into the assumption of exempt employees: you are given a chunk of work based on a job description, and you're expected to do it. There is some expectation it will average to a reasonable amount, some weeks taking more, offset by weeks that take less. I had IT jobs where there was on-call responsibility and maintenance windows, but no one sweat if those days you were in a bit late or left a bit early (at least that was the idea).
The problem is you have folks my my aforementioned "10% should be standard" (who was a mild example compared to others at that company) or the commenter who said SpaceX normal week was 60-80 hours. Job descriptions that include the phrase "other duties as assigned." They set the bar high, so "getting the job done" is challenging. Work/Life balance means taking an hour break to see your kid's soccer game, then going to your "night job" (more work at home (for no additional pay).
When I hear folks "quiet quitting," it's not "doing the bare minimum" (as the media tends to describe it, suggesting they are slackers) or "work to rule" (which sounds more like malicious compliance to achieve and ends). It's all about setting boundaries. People don't want to do a bad job or cause problems. They just don't want to be taken advantage of.
It's weird not seeing the words "wage theft" anywhere in any of those articles, or in this thread.
My rough understanding this is more of an obvious issue for hourly employees. "Set up your station before clocking in" (as though setting up. your station was something you do as a hobby). It's a bit fuzzier for exempt employees. Ostensibly, working outside your job description might be wage theft. But if there are fuzzy terms ("manage servers, to include but not limited to...") or even straight up "other duties as assigned" language in the job description, it becomes tricky.
posted by MrGuilt at 1:22 PM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
"around 90% of industry average" because "you make up for it stock options." Yup, no thanks.
Yes! I can't tell you how many recruiters I've talked to where they said something to the effect of "You have a bonus!" and I'm like that thing you take away the first thing and isn't even like two months rent? Yeah just give it to me in pay.
posted by geoff. at 1:23 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yes! I can't tell you how many recruiters I've talked to where they said something to the effect of "You have a bonus!" and I'm like that thing you take away the first thing and isn't even like two months rent? Yeah just give it to me in pay.
posted by geoff. at 1:23 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is extending the "nobody wants to work anymore" canard about companies having trouble finding people to work for low wages, into "people with jobs don't want to work either." I saw someone on Twitter the other day call working 40hrs/wk "coasting."
Corporate America (and perhaps beyond?) is on a revolt against any change in working conditions and loss of complete dominance whatsoever. I mean look at the pandemic and the people switching jobs to better ones; workers get even the slightest bit of leverage and capitalists immediately start shitting purple Twinkies and calling every reporter on whitepages.com. They're working the refs, and I hope we as workers can dig in for this one, because I think this opportunity for demanding better quality jobs arises less than once per generation. Remember to ask for double what you want, so you can compromise to a reasonable deal.
posted by rhizome at 1:27 PM on August 23, 2022 [27 favorites]
Corporate America (and perhaps beyond?) is on a revolt against any change in working conditions and loss of complete dominance whatsoever. I mean look at the pandemic and the people switching jobs to better ones; workers get even the slightest bit of leverage and capitalists immediately start shitting purple Twinkies and calling every reporter on whitepages.com. They're working the refs, and I hope we as workers can dig in for this one, because I think this opportunity for demanding better quality jobs arises less than once per generation. Remember to ask for double what you want, so you can compromise to a reasonable deal.
posted by rhizome at 1:27 PM on August 23, 2022 [27 favorites]
I've asked recruiters for lottery tickets instead of stock options, because those have the odds printed on them. They get really mad at that.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:27 PM on August 23, 2022 [37 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:27 PM on August 23, 2022 [37 favorites]
I can't tell you how many recruiters I've talked to where they said something to the effect of "You have a bonus!"
I like to say bonus, stock options, inheritances, and lottery tickets are all the same thing. It's nice if it works out, but don't plan your budget (or life) counting on them.
In particular, I hate bonuses. Since "hours worked" is often a proxy for contribution (and, by extension, the size of the slice of the bonus pie), you're allowing the company to decide what overtime is. So, instead of getting time-and-half, you get a bonus...that works out to $0.75/hour for your OT.
posted by MrGuilt at 1:29 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
I like to say bonus, stock options, inheritances, and lottery tickets are all the same thing. It's nice if it works out, but don't plan your budget (or life) counting on them.
In particular, I hate bonuses. Since "hours worked" is often a proxy for contribution (and, by extension, the size of the slice of the bonus pie), you're allowing the company to decide what overtime is. So, instead of getting time-and-half, you get a bonus...that works out to $0.75/hour for your OT.
posted by MrGuilt at 1:29 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is extending the "nobody wants to work anymore" canard about companies having trouble finding people to work for low wages, into "people with jobs don't want to work either."
You have articulated much better than I did why I feel like this is astroturfing. Thank you!
posted by MrGuilt at 1:31 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
You have articulated much better than I did why I feel like this is astroturfing. Thank you!
posted by MrGuilt at 1:31 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
A lot of talk about “quiet quitting” but very little talk about “quiet firing” which is when you don’t give someone a raise in 5 years even though they keep doing everything you ask them to.
In the alternate reality we call Silicon Valley, this is what the zero RSU award is. Your pay comes in three components:
- base salary
- annual bonus
- annual restricted stock unit (RSU) refresher grant
Every RSU grant is an award of stock, spread over time. At first, they're all meaningful comp increases, and by year 4 you have 4 overlapping grants showing up in E-Trade every year. But after that point every new grant replaces an existing one, and an award of zero shares is a pay cut for the next four years at least. It's commonly believed that such a move says your manager wants you to quit so they dont have to fire you.
posted by pwnguin at 1:33 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
In the alternate reality we call Silicon Valley, this is what the zero RSU award is. Your pay comes in three components:
- base salary
- annual bonus
- annual restricted stock unit (RSU) refresher grant
Every RSU grant is an award of stock, spread over time. At first, they're all meaningful comp increases, and by year 4 you have 4 overlapping grants showing up in E-Trade every year. But after that point every new grant replaces an existing one, and an award of zero shares is a pay cut for the next four years at least. It's commonly believed that such a move says your manager wants you to quit so they dont have to fire you.
posted by pwnguin at 1:33 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’ve heard it stated (though it’s hard to find exact law) that some states require employers to guarantee x % of employees onsite x days/week. It’s an easy way of ensuring a certain number of people are driving and spending $$$ in the place of their employer.
The other thing that comes to mind is the commercial real estate market. If a lot of commercial real estate isn’t needed, that market will crash hard.
posted by glaucon at 1:36 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
The other thing that comes to mind is the commercial real estate market. If a lot of commercial real estate isn’t needed, that market will crash hard.
posted by glaucon at 1:36 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Quiet Quitting"? Hah. Here is a classic story of a master-level job of "quiet quitting"..
You know exactly how far your boss and your company would go for you. Don't go further than that.
posted by egypturnash at 1:40 PM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
You know exactly how far your boss and your company would go for you. Don't go further than that.
posted by egypturnash at 1:40 PM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
When I start getting tired of a job I start by deciding to climb out of my beautiful haze (or at least start playing that clip over and over)
posted by mbo at 1:41 PM on August 23, 2022
posted by mbo at 1:41 PM on August 23, 2022
There's a throwaway line on the Wikipedia page for "malicious compliance" that seems apt:
Managers can avoid this by not making excessive or incomprehensible demands from employees.
posted by ook at 1:41 PM on August 23, 2022 [10 favorites]
Managers can avoid this by not making excessive or incomprehensible demands from employees.
posted by ook at 1:41 PM on August 23, 2022 [10 favorites]
I had once seen a similar sentiment phrased as 'the weapons of the weak'.
You're a feudal era peasant and your boss or lord is making everyone work on a holiday? Wow, damn shame everyone's doing a really shit job, and all the tools keep getting broken, and skilled professionals are all sick or missing and also your dinner keeps arriving fucked up.
Clean up your act and treat everybody right? How interesting, everything suddenly works properly again.
(Disclaimer, I have no idea of historical basis, but it's a great way to explain things to people sometimes.)
posted by kkar at 1:46 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
You're a feudal era peasant and your boss or lord is making everyone work on a holiday? Wow, damn shame everyone's doing a really shit job, and all the tools keep getting broken, and skilled professionals are all sick or missing and also your dinner keeps arriving fucked up.
Clean up your act and treat everybody right? How interesting, everything suddenly works properly again.
(Disclaimer, I have no idea of historical basis, but it's a great way to explain things to people sometimes.)
posted by kkar at 1:46 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
I despise the super inaccurate name of "quiet quitting," which is incredibly stupid and inaccurate and really should be reserved for people who just don't show up at work. (Though the "no longer scheduled for hours at your retail job" absolutely should be called "quiet firing.") But the actual idea behind it is great and I've been kinda doing it for awhile now. Perhaps call it "the bare minimum?"
They don't like me at work with regards to my actual work or work personality. I am going to get bad reviews no matter what I do now. Like I voluntarily answered questions on Slack all day long this year, without it being assigned as a shift to me, and the only thing said about this on my review was "yeah, you answer questions there but you don't volunteer to answer the phones." (They hate my voice, is why. My odds of another writeup go up hugely if anyone hears me speak.) "You're not terrible" was the only good thing there was to say about me. I get one star on everything and "not meeting our needs" for doing my job but not having the right personality to be a service worker and nothing but a service worker. Should I put in extra for this place? Why bother? I can't rehab my reputation here even if I handed out winning lottery tickets.
So I get work done, specifically the stuff I know how to do. But when it's a question of "here are some extremely weird and incomprehensible emails from tech asking us to fix a long list of something ASAP they really need it now now now," and I know from experience that asking them to explain what they want fixed only gets me, "I have no idea how you do that, just please fix it!" as a response, and that I am likely to get written up/in trouble if I screw it up, should I take the lead on those? Or shall I just work on some easier stuff that we have avalanches of but has no due date? I have no incentive to tackle anything hard and it doesn't seem to really get noticed if those tech requests get ignored for a few days/weeks/whatever or someone else figures it out in the meantime so...eh....if I'm going to get just as shitty of a review if I knock myself out as if I try hard (we won't even discuss pay raises since obviously that doesn't happen), why try hard?
Really, this is putting as much effort into the job as they're going to put into you. If the employer won't give extra, why should the employee? They rent your time and your effort, so you give them the minimum, no more freebies in hopes of them giving you some freebies.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:30 PM on August 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
They don't like me at work with regards to my actual work or work personality. I am going to get bad reviews no matter what I do now. Like I voluntarily answered questions on Slack all day long this year, without it being assigned as a shift to me, and the only thing said about this on my review was "yeah, you answer questions there but you don't volunteer to answer the phones." (They hate my voice, is why. My odds of another writeup go up hugely if anyone hears me speak.) "You're not terrible" was the only good thing there was to say about me. I get one star on everything and "not meeting our needs" for doing my job but not having the right personality to be a service worker and nothing but a service worker. Should I put in extra for this place? Why bother? I can't rehab my reputation here even if I handed out winning lottery tickets.
So I get work done, specifically the stuff I know how to do. But when it's a question of "here are some extremely weird and incomprehensible emails from tech asking us to fix a long list of something ASAP they really need it now now now," and I know from experience that asking them to explain what they want fixed only gets me, "I have no idea how you do that, just please fix it!" as a response, and that I am likely to get written up/in trouble if I screw it up, should I take the lead on those? Or shall I just work on some easier stuff that we have avalanches of but has no due date? I have no incentive to tackle anything hard and it doesn't seem to really get noticed if those tech requests get ignored for a few days/weeks/whatever or someone else figures it out in the meantime so...eh....if I'm going to get just as shitty of a review if I knock myself out as if I try hard (we won't even discuss pay raises since obviously that doesn't happen), why try hard?
Really, this is putting as much effort into the job as they're going to put into you. If the employer won't give extra, why should the employee? They rent your time and your effort, so you give them the minimum, no more freebies in hopes of them giving you some freebies.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:30 PM on August 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
“10% overtime should be the norm—if you want to work 40 hours, you should work retail”
The biggest stupidity of all of this is that it equates time with value for the employer. That makes no sense.
I work in software consulting. For all of us in any kind of knowledge worker position, this whole thing is just stupid. What is the output of 40 hours of knowledge work? Is the output 20 hours of knowledge work half as much? If you work in these kinds of jobs, you know the answer is often 'no,' because we're not making widgets. We're not on an assembly line. 30 hours of work does not equate a 75% production rate. There are weeks where I will do so much work, add so much value. And then there are weeks where I literally could have taken a vacation for all the good I did.
Employers should measure your value by the outcomes that you produce, not your output. Because otherwise they get people sitting at desks for 40+ hours a week, but those people not working. They're killing time. And these employers are paying them to do that, to just kill time. And they think that the proper response to not meeting outcomes is to make their employees kill more time. So dumb.
posted by nushustu at 2:35 PM on August 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
The biggest stupidity of all of this is that it equates time with value for the employer. That makes no sense.
I work in software consulting. For all of us in any kind of knowledge worker position, this whole thing is just stupid. What is the output of 40 hours of knowledge work? Is the output 20 hours of knowledge work half as much? If you work in these kinds of jobs, you know the answer is often 'no,' because we're not making widgets. We're not on an assembly line. 30 hours of work does not equate a 75% production rate. There are weeks where I will do so much work, add so much value. And then there are weeks where I literally could have taken a vacation for all the good I did.
Employers should measure your value by the outcomes that you produce, not your output. Because otherwise they get people sitting at desks for 40+ hours a week, but those people not working. They're killing time. And these employers are paying them to do that, to just kill time. And they think that the proper response to not meeting outcomes is to make their employees kill more time. So dumb.
posted by nushustu at 2:35 PM on August 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
Employers should measure your value by the outcomes that you produce, not your output.
Repeated for fantasticness. My work gets done. If every minute was not filled with unnecesaary widget-fussing...good!
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:47 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Repeated for fantasticness. My work gets done. If every minute was not filled with unnecesaary widget-fussing...good!
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:47 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Like, to continue my multi-comment rant here on an obvious point: the problem with the phrase is that it cedes the idea that “hustle culture” is the equivalent of work, while “quitting” just means “working enough hours.” If anything that seems to exacerbate the idea that overwork is/should be the accepted norm.
Yes; these managers are literally complaining because their workers won't do extra work for no pay.
The NPR article and linked TikTok seem rather unclear about the origin - Ed Zitron alleges that bosses made it up, but the TikTok seems to think of it positively. My assumption is that it was made up by some Gen Zer as a kind of affirmative that I hate. Anyone have a definitive origin?
posted by Going To Maine at 2:48 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes; these managers are literally complaining because their workers won't do extra work for no pay.
The NPR article and linked TikTok seem rather unclear about the origin - Ed Zitron alleges that bosses made it up, but the TikTok seems to think of it positively. My assumption is that it was made up by some Gen Zer as a kind of affirmative that I hate. Anyone have a definitive origin?
posted by Going To Maine at 2:48 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
My assumption is that it was made up by some think tank or productivity shill as a way of negging the idea that doing your job is sufficient. It's too suddenly ubiquitous to have originated naturally.
posted by ook at 3:00 PM on August 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by ook at 3:00 PM on August 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
It seems to have become ubiquitous because it went viral on TikTok, though, which is a perfectly good way to get a bunch of splash-in-the-pan-coverage.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:06 PM on August 23, 2022
posted by Going To Maine at 3:06 PM on August 23, 2022
Google trends has it starting to show up in July, and then starting to really blow up August 14.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:07 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 3:07 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
The New York Post (so, uh…) thinks it came from the concept of “lying flat” in China and then moved outwards. Honestly, “lying flat” also sounds pretty dang bad to my ears. Get better at slogans, Gen Z!
posted by Going To Maine at 3:11 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 3:11 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
The implication of "quiet quitting" is that by doing your job as per description, you have functionally ceased to do it... that all the "extras" are the substance of your emploment and the notional strict definition doesn't even count. So yes, definitely a phrase which embeds the demanding employer perspective, not the worker point of view.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:17 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:17 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
What, the time-tested phrase "work/life balance" suddenly isn't good enough for The Kids?
Maybe I'm just autistic but I never liked this one because I know lots of people whose work and home lives are perfectly balanced... there's just way too much in each. Usually tenure-track faculty with kids...
"Quiet quitting" is worse though. Personally I prefer to just call it "doing my job." If my job were to go above and beyond, then... it would be my job, and no longer be above and beyond.
posted by brook horse at 4:26 PM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
Maybe I'm just autistic but I never liked this one because I know lots of people whose work and home lives are perfectly balanced... there's just way too much in each. Usually tenure-track faculty with kids...
"Quiet quitting" is worse though. Personally I prefer to just call it "doing my job." If my job were to go above and beyond, then... it would be my job, and no longer be above and beyond.
posted by brook horse at 4:26 PM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
The whole "putting in the extra hours" stuff smacks of TSA security theater: it's not necessarily that you're more productive, it's that you are more present. You are putting on a show of how much more you do than is required of you, how many more hours, how much you'll talk to the boss about the game last night, how you're the guy who brings in bagels every Wednesday. It's all just theater.
And you know, if you're a manager at a company and you don't really have a life outside of work, then probably you like those people. You have something in common with them. You look forward to seeing them every day. But a lot of people work because they need money to live. And that's it. And maybe they like their work, but they'd stop doing it in a heartbeat if their employer stopped paying them. Why is that a bad thing?
posted by nushustu at 5:31 PM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
And you know, if you're a manager at a company and you don't really have a life outside of work, then probably you like those people. You have something in common with them. You look forward to seeing them every day. But a lot of people work because they need money to live. And that's it. And maybe they like their work, but they'd stop doing it in a heartbeat if their employer stopped paying them. Why is that a bad thing?
posted by nushustu at 5:31 PM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'm really good at my job, and have been especially kicking butt in the last couple of years. I kind of enjoy my job for the most part, and while I'm on the clock I much rather get stuff done, make myself useful, take the initiative, etc. rather than slack off, because merely killing time while trying to look busy is both boring and stressful. And I take pride in my work.
But I would not describe myself as a hard worker necessarily. When my 8 hours is up I clock out and my mind goes immediately to other things. They pay me for 40 hours a week, they get 40 hours a week. I like my job, but I don't love it. I would very gladly stop doing it if my living expenses were covered some other way (and a bit extra for fun stuff). I could happily fill my time reading, making music, playing video games, maybe doing a little bit of travel, some other stuff.
I had a (glowing) performance review a few weeks ago and the boss started to say something about how I seem super dedicated, like I really identify with my job and it's the most important thing in my life. And I was trying to find a diplomatic way of saying that's not it at all, I see myself as a musician who has no real choice but to have a day job doing something else. But thankfully he changed tack before things got any more awkward.
posted by Foosnark at 5:55 PM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
But I would not describe myself as a hard worker necessarily. When my 8 hours is up I clock out and my mind goes immediately to other things. They pay me for 40 hours a week, they get 40 hours a week. I like my job, but I don't love it. I would very gladly stop doing it if my living expenses were covered some other way (and a bit extra for fun stuff). I could happily fill my time reading, making music, playing video games, maybe doing a little bit of travel, some other stuff.
I had a (glowing) performance review a few weeks ago and the boss started to say something about how I seem super dedicated, like I really identify with my job and it's the most important thing in my life. And I was trying to find a diplomatic way of saying that's not it at all, I see myself as a musician who has no real choice but to have a day job doing something else. But thankfully he changed tack before things got any more awkward.
posted by Foosnark at 5:55 PM on August 23, 2022 [13 favorites]
I don't know if I ever saw the first TikTok about it, but I did first hear about it on TikTok, and perhaps I'm stating the obvious but I think the reason the name contains "quitting" is just because it's an alternative to actually quitting as a way of addressing burnout, not because bosses see chilling out a little about productivity as equivalent to quitting, though their outrage about it certainly shows that they do.
posted by lampoil at 5:56 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by lampoil at 5:56 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Quiet quitting 🤔? Isn't that just doing your job 🤨? | The Daily Show
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:13 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:13 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Working hard, or hardly working? har har har
posted by The otter lady at 6:56 PM on August 23, 2022
posted by The otter lady at 6:56 PM on August 23, 2022
"Some people want to wear more...and we encourage that."
posted by rhizome at 6:56 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 6:56 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
perhaps I'm stating the obvious but I think the reason the name contains "quitting" is just because it's an alternative to actually quitting as a way of addressing burnout, not because bosses see chilling out a little about productivity as equivalent to quitting, though their outrage about it certainly shows that they do.
I agree. If you are a person who is burnt out but you aren't in a financial position to actually quit (i.e., like most of us), this is probably about as close as you can come to a satisfying "fuck you, I quit!" moment.
The whole "putting in the extra hours" stuff smacks of TSA security theater: it's not necessarily that you're more productive, it's that you are more present. You are putting on a show of how much more you do than is required of you, how many more hours, how much you'll talk to the boss about the game last night, how you're the guy who brings in bagels every Wednesday. It's all just theater.
Pre-covid, there were a couple of people where I work who did this. They were extra-performative about coming in crazy early and staying late. But, even then, they didn't actually get more done than other people did, and once they started working from home the performance completely stopped because there was no one to watch.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:42 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
I agree. If you are a person who is burnt out but you aren't in a financial position to actually quit (i.e., like most of us), this is probably about as close as you can come to a satisfying "fuck you, I quit!" moment.
The whole "putting in the extra hours" stuff smacks of TSA security theater: it's not necessarily that you're more productive, it's that you are more present. You are putting on a show of how much more you do than is required of you, how many more hours, how much you'll talk to the boss about the game last night, how you're the guy who brings in bagels every Wednesday. It's all just theater.
Pre-covid, there were a couple of people where I work who did this. They were extra-performative about coming in crazy early and staying late. But, even then, they didn't actually get more done than other people did, and once they started working from home the performance completely stopped because there was no one to watch.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:42 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Employers should measure your value by the outcomes that you produce, not your output.
This idea kind of works in manufacturing, maybe, but we don't have a path for this sentence to make sense in an information economy, particularly in Open Source where code is both infinitely reproducible labor and distilled power. We have no model for paying people like that what they're worth based on "the outcomes they produce". It may not be possible.
posted by mhoye at 9:35 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
This idea kind of works in manufacturing, maybe, but we don't have a path for this sentence to make sense in an information economy, particularly in Open Source where code is both infinitely reproducible labor and distilled power. We have no model for paying people like that what they're worth based on "the outcomes they produce". It may not be possible.
posted by mhoye at 9:35 PM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am so confused by this phrase. I assumed it meant going to work but not actually working. As in, showing up/logging in and maybe attending meetings to nod your head but just not actually doing the thing.
Like, I had a temp job once to clean up backlogged records. An employee was supposed to be receiving a certain type of paperwork and verifying expense-category codes, but she processed less than 10% of what came in and otherwise just hid the mail in file cabinets until they were full and then made stacks beyond the door of her office and beneath her desk.
posted by desuetude at 10:25 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Like, I had a temp job once to clean up backlogged records. An employee was supposed to be receiving a certain type of paperwork and verifying expense-category codes, but she processed less than 10% of what came in and otherwise just hid the mail in file cabinets until they were full and then made stacks beyond the door of her office and beneath her desk.
posted by desuetude at 10:25 PM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Perhaps call it "the bare minimum?"
Or maybe "what we agreed to"?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:31 PM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
Or maybe "what we agreed to"?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:31 PM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
I've been referring to this as "No working for free" for a couple decades now. Including trying to convince minimum wage, no benefit workers to stop doing it. JHC the company is officially exploiting you to the maximum the law will allow and you are willingly giving them work that would otherwise be illegal to ask for. I've internalized it so much that it actually makes me angry when I see wage theft by expecting work outside of paid hours.
My current gig has union employees (my trade) working along side non union workers and those poor bastards are not only getting paid less with minimal benefits they've also bought into working for free for 20 minutes a day filling out required [Safety no less!] paperwork before their shift starts. It's so expected they can't even see how they are being exploited the couple of times I've brought it up (though when the union crafts negotiated a 12% raise across the board a few months ago and they got bupkis it got at least some of them thinking).
I really hope this quiet quitting catches on big time.
That CNN clip embedded in the Daily Show clip would be jaw dropping if I wasn't so cynical on this issue. The talking head is trying to work up outrage that people stop replying to work inquires after five and I'm like "DaFuq? Ya, that is how it works." I get a work enquiry out of scheduled hours it means something is on fire and my employer figures it is worth paying me at least 4 hours (2@1.5X and 2@2X, plus paid missed meal) to come in and address it.
posted by Mitheral at 10:45 PM on August 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
My current gig has union employees (my trade) working along side non union workers and those poor bastards are not only getting paid less with minimal benefits they've also bought into working for free for 20 minutes a day filling out required [Safety no less!] paperwork before their shift starts. It's so expected they can't even see how they are being exploited the couple of times I've brought it up (though when the union crafts negotiated a 12% raise across the board a few months ago and they got bupkis it got at least some of them thinking).
I really hope this quiet quitting catches on big time.
That CNN clip embedded in the Daily Show clip would be jaw dropping if I wasn't so cynical on this issue. The talking head is trying to work up outrage that people stop replying to work inquires after five and I'm like "DaFuq? Ya, that is how it works." I get a work enquiry out of scheduled hours it means something is on fire and my employer figures it is worth paying me at least 4 hours (2@1.5X and 2@2X, plus paid missed meal) to come in and address it.
posted by Mitheral at 10:45 PM on August 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
the implication of calling it "quiet quitting" is that simply doing your job and not more is justification for them to fire you.
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:52 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:52 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
My brother-in-law is a mechanical engineer. He is also very much a "work to live" kind of person. So when his company kept giving him extra work and expected him to put in 50 hours a week he found a way to work more efficiently so that he could get that 50 hours of work done in 40. The net result? They gave him even MORE work and expected him to stay 50 hours. Of course he was a salaried employee so he wasn't being paid extra for the time but he also wouldn't have cared either way-- he wanted his time, not more money.
Of course I'm sure this same company has mandatory yearly training and I bet they have a module on burnout. My company certainly does. I have left comments in the (mandatory) review for the course that forcing us to sit through these long computer modules about burnout is only contributing to burnout.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:12 AM on August 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
Of course I'm sure this same company has mandatory yearly training and I bet they have a module on burnout. My company certainly does. I have left comments in the (mandatory) review for the course that forcing us to sit through these long computer modules about burnout is only contributing to burnout.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:12 AM on August 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
The conversation has really led my brain down a tangential path, where I'm realizing I'm witnessing in real-time the same dynamics that led the British colonial administration (or just about any occupying force) to label the local populace as lazy because unlike migrant labour, they literally have other options and would just not show up to work (and unlike the Dutch in Indonesia, they could access other holdings for manpower eg India and not have to pressgang the locals to the point of fomenting rebellions). Bosses gonna boss huh.
posted by cendawanita at 5:09 AM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:09 AM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
There is nothing in the rule about, "Getting the job done." That's assumed.
Everyone works that way. It's baked into the assumption of exempt employees: you are given a chunk of work based on a job description, and you're expected to do it. There is some expectation it will average to a reasonable amount, some weeks taking more, offset by weeks that take less. I had IT jobs where there was on-call responsibility and maintenance windows, but no one sweat if those days you were in a bit late or left a bit early (at least that was the idea).
IT sounds lovely. As a civil engineer, that is very much NOT the idea here or anywhere I have heard of. I'm welcome to take more than 40 hours to do my work but if I take less than 40 hours I'm expected to make it 40 by spending accumulated vacation time. I've often wondered what would happen if I just didn't. I'd probably get fired and lose all the rest of my vacation time, so I haven't run the experiment.
Is this really a common thing? Slow weeks that don't carry the assumption that at least 40 hours will be spent on the clock?
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 9:45 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Everyone works that way. It's baked into the assumption of exempt employees: you are given a chunk of work based on a job description, and you're expected to do it. There is some expectation it will average to a reasonable amount, some weeks taking more, offset by weeks that take less. I had IT jobs where there was on-call responsibility and maintenance windows, but no one sweat if those days you were in a bit late or left a bit early (at least that was the idea).
IT sounds lovely. As a civil engineer, that is very much NOT the idea here or anywhere I have heard of. I'm welcome to take more than 40 hours to do my work but if I take less than 40 hours I'm expected to make it 40 by spending accumulated vacation time. I've often wondered what would happen if I just didn't. I'd probably get fired and lose all the rest of my vacation time, so I haven't run the experiment.
Is this really a common thing? Slow weeks that don't carry the assumption that at least 40 hours will be spent on the clock?
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 9:45 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
GenX invented "quiet quitting".
(Shared with me from one of my team members when we were discussing this so-called phenomena.)
posted by DiscourseMarker at 9:50 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
(Shared with me from one of my team members when we were discussing this so-called phenomena.)
posted by DiscourseMarker at 9:50 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Truly, if there are no opportunities for institutional advancement (because Boomers won't retire) and wages never significantly increase, what do you have to prove?
posted by honeybee413 at 10:24 AM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by honeybee413 at 10:24 AM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd probably get fired and lose all the rest of my vacation time, so I haven't run the experiment.
This varies by location I am told but every jurisdiction has ruled that vacation time paid out as money, even if you're fired.
posted by pwnguin at 10:24 AM on August 24, 2022
This varies by location I am told but every jurisdiction has ruled that vacation time paid out as money, even if you're fired.
posted by pwnguin at 10:24 AM on August 24, 2022
> pwnguin: "This varies by location I am told but every jurisdiction has ruled that vacation time paid out as money, even if you're fired."
I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly. Are you saying that this doesn't actually vary by location (i.e.: "every jurisdiction has ruled")? Because I'm 99.9% sure that this isn't true in either Oregon or Washington state (though is the case in California). In OR and WA, the governing principle appears to be that it is up to the company itself to decide whether or not unused PTO is paid out upon separation. And, I bet you can guess what most companies have decided.
posted by mhum at 10:48 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly. Are you saying that this doesn't actually vary by location (i.e.: "every jurisdiction has ruled")? Because I'm 99.9% sure that this isn't true in either Oregon or Washington state (though is the case in California). In OR and WA, the governing principle appears to be that it is up to the company itself to decide whether or not unused PTO is paid out upon separation. And, I bet you can guess what most companies have decided.
posted by mhum at 10:48 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
This varies by location I am told but every jurisdiction has ruled that vacation time paid out as money, even if you're fired.
I believe this is only the case in 8 states in the US, currently. I've never seen a company pay out PTO, I've chalked it up to being one of those semi-mythical labor protections that other places manage to have but we've foregone because otherwise the communists win.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:58 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
I believe this is only the case in 8 states in the US, currently. I've never seen a company pay out PTO, I've chalked it up to being one of those semi-mythical labor protections that other places manage to have but we've foregone because otherwise the communists win.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:58 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
To not-abuse the edit window:
I've had that come back to bite me even, when I lost ~30 days of PTO in a layoff, unpaid. In theory I would've learned from this, but here I am at a new role, where policy is clear that PTO doesn't get paid out, and my accrued time is building up.
Turns out enough years of planning around "take a day or two on one side of a holiday" and the like means I'm bad at taking appreciable amounts of PTO without having an expense-filled plan in mind. (and we're still in a pandemic, so big travel seems like a bad idea)
posted by CrystalDave at 11:02 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've had that come back to bite me even, when I lost ~30 days of PTO in a layoff, unpaid. In theory I would've learned from this, but here I am at a new role, where policy is clear that PTO doesn't get paid out, and my accrued time is building up.
Turns out enough years of planning around "take a day or two on one side of a holiday" and the like means I'm bad at taking appreciable amounts of PTO without having an expense-filled plan in mind. (and we're still in a pandemic, so big travel seems like a bad idea)
posted by CrystalDave at 11:02 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
The really fun one is when you elect a large medical FSA withholding for the upcoming calendar year. Let's hypothetically say it's the max allowed. You spend it all on January 2nd and then quit later that week.
One time when the stars aligned I had the fortune to do this and it was sweet.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:16 PM on August 24, 2022
One time when the stars aligned I had the fortune to do this and it was sweet.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:16 PM on August 24, 2022
Can you explain for someone who lives someplace where FSAs aren't a thing?
posted by Mitheral at 1:23 PM on August 24, 2022
posted by Mitheral at 1:23 PM on August 24, 2022
FSAs are funded in a lump sum at the year start, but the funding is paid for through paycheck withholdings. So Joe there managed to line it up that he got and used his disbursement, then quit before he had any withholdings - basically getting money out of his ex-employer.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:28 PM on August 24, 2022
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:28 PM on August 24, 2022
Actual 'quiet quitting' is more like stories that get passed around about someone realizing they have a bullshit job they can automate in Excel (or similar) and then actually manage to go to work but not really do work for months or years.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:50 PM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:50 PM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Thanks, NoxAeternum.
The reason you can do this is because employers are allowed to keep any unspent funds in your account at the end of the year (plus a small grace period). It's money taken out of your check before payroll taxes so you can only spend it on medical-related things and can't take it out as cash.
To balance things out the USA Internal Revenue Service created rules that say "okay, employers, you can keep the unspent funds but you also can't claw back overspent funds". And there you go.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:08 PM on August 24, 2022
The reason you can do this is because employers are allowed to keep any unspent funds in your account at the end of the year (plus a small grace period). It's money taken out of your check before payroll taxes so you can only spend it on medical-related things and can't take it out as cash.
To balance things out the USA Internal Revenue Service created rules that say "okay, employers, you can keep the unspent funds but you also can't claw back overspent funds". And there you go.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:08 PM on August 24, 2022
I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly. Are you saying that this doesn't actually vary by location
You are interpreting what I wrote correctly, but I accidentally left out a key part of that sentence. I meant to say:
posted by pwnguin at 2:59 PM on August 24, 2022
You are interpreting what I wrote correctly, but I accidentally left out a key part of that sentence. I meant to say:
every jurisdiction I've worked in has ruled that vacation time paid out as moneyI've done no such exhaustive analysis and regret the error implying I had.
posted by pwnguin at 2:59 PM on August 24, 2022
Is this really a common thing? Slow weeks that don't carry the assumption that at least 40 hours will be spent on the clock?
In my experience of the software industry, it's not common at all. My most common experience over the last 30 years is being overloaded with mandated tasks that can only be completed with 60+ hours of work. I consider this to be management's failure to plan and staff appropriately which gets externalized onto the shoulders of salaried employees. That's intentional and, yes, it's wage theft. No way I'm ever working like that again, and I'm certainly not going to put anyone else through that, either.
Thanks to tools that tells code contribution levels, task completion rates, story point burndowns, velocity, availability, code churn, test visibility, and mean time to release, there's a complete picture of who is working on what, when, and how that all fits together from a work stream perspective - all without having to ask. Combined with daily standups, regular direct questioning, and anonymous polling, it's possible to tie in how people are feeling about their workload with what is seen in productivity.
People get to choose what tasks they are doing and often write the definition of those tasks themselves. We have business goals and priorities to meet, but how we get there is up to us. If someone completes everything they were supposed to do in two weeks by Monday of the second week, they will happily look for other things to do. We then track why those initial estimates were 10 days instead of 6, and adjust what needs adjusting.
New employees often have to be taught all of this, because it's outside of their experience in the industry. Their teammates check timestamps on code commits and emails and remind them that nights and weekends aren't for work. We have Outlook sending engagement reports reminding people of time spent outside of their designated work hours. If someone logs in while on vacation they get told, in friendly ways, to log the fuck off.
When people like their jobs, feel supported by their management, receive the appropriate recognition, and are compensated well, there's a distinct absence of slacking or just marking time. This is not the industry norm, and I recognize the privilege of working for a corporation that allows me to lead an organization this way.
posted by Revvy at 3:48 PM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
In my experience of the software industry, it's not common at all. My most common experience over the last 30 years is being overloaded with mandated tasks that can only be completed with 60+ hours of work. I consider this to be management's failure to plan and staff appropriately which gets externalized onto the shoulders of salaried employees. That's intentional and, yes, it's wage theft. No way I'm ever working like that again, and I'm certainly not going to put anyone else through that, either.
Thanks to tools that tells code contribution levels, task completion rates, story point burndowns, velocity, availability, code churn, test visibility, and mean time to release, there's a complete picture of who is working on what, when, and how that all fits together from a work stream perspective - all without having to ask. Combined with daily standups, regular direct questioning, and anonymous polling, it's possible to tie in how people are feeling about their workload with what is seen in productivity.
People get to choose what tasks they are doing and often write the definition of those tasks themselves. We have business goals and priorities to meet, but how we get there is up to us. If someone completes everything they were supposed to do in two weeks by Monday of the second week, they will happily look for other things to do. We then track why those initial estimates were 10 days instead of 6, and adjust what needs adjusting.
New employees often have to be taught all of this, because it's outside of their experience in the industry. Their teammates check timestamps on code commits and emails and remind them that nights and weekends aren't for work. We have Outlook sending engagement reports reminding people of time spent outside of their designated work hours. If someone logs in while on vacation they get told, in friendly ways, to log the fuck off.
When people like their jobs, feel supported by their management, receive the appropriate recognition, and are compensated well, there's a distinct absence of slacking or just marking time. This is not the industry norm, and I recognize the privilege of working for a corporation that allows me to lead an organization this way.
posted by Revvy at 3:48 PM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
I feel like what's being missed in this conversation is the advent of ever-more invasive employer surveillance...
posted by suelac at 4:12 PM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by suelac at 4:12 PM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
> pwnguin: "You are interpreting what I wrote correctly, but I accidentally left out a key part of that sentence."
Ah! That makes much more sense. Thanks for the clarification.
posted by mhum at 10:09 PM on August 24, 2022
Ah! That makes much more sense. Thanks for the clarification.
posted by mhum at 10:09 PM on August 24, 2022
"Quiet Quitting"? I threw up in my mouth a little bit when I read that.
Being more clear and firm with work/life boundaries right now makes a ton of sense. I imagine most people who are working at home have experienced a blurring of those boundaries. My home has become my workplace, so (my job thinks) answering an email at 7:30 isn't a burden. Bullshit. I'm 8-4. I'll glance at an email between 4-5 and consider responding, if it's easy, or if it's from a mistake I made. Aside from that? See you at 8. Which is really more like 7:30.
posted by papercake at 5:11 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Being more clear and firm with work/life boundaries right now makes a ton of sense. I imagine most people who are working at home have experienced a blurring of those boundaries. My home has become my workplace, so (my job thinks) answering an email at 7:30 isn't a burden. Bullshit. I'm 8-4. I'll glance at an email between 4-5 and consider responding, if it's easy, or if it's from a mistake I made. Aside from that? See you at 8. Which is really more like 7:30.
posted by papercake at 5:11 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I can't remember, do we like the concept of MacLeod hierarchy / Gervais principle here? (Obviously not the latter namesake.) It's dated, certainly in the time of COVID, but every time I hear about "quiet quitting" (absolutely cringeworthy), it always just strikes me as a rejection of MacLeod cluelessness and reveling in loserdom.
I really like that hierarchy. Still think it works really well even post-covid and applies well to this.
Fundamentally, many parts of our economy, including the public sector, work by underpaying and under-rewarding work and then extracting extra labour through the promotion process. If you want to have a career where you get promoted, you have to go above and beyond (what you are getting paid for). This works just as long as there are substantial numbers of people who want those promotions and realistically can get them. Certainly I've seen in the public sector in the UK (where being fired is almost impossible) that people work extremely hard for their moderate pay up until the point where they've reached a certain level that they're unlikely to- / not interested in- exceeding and then just do their contracted hours and deliver average performance.
I think it's worth exploring that because we've built a system that at-best barely creaks along without people doing that extra work and putting in that effort so what happens when we run out of road to plausibly promise promotions?
I actually *don't* think this is work to rule. That is more about a recognition that if everyone did exactly what their job description said, most businesses simply couldn't run at all. It's a tactic short of a strike but is deliberately degrading the performance of the employer in order to demonstrate labour power and extract concessions. If the required work is getting done then it isn't a very effective Work to Rule.
This is more about doing the contracted number of hours but not doing the extra activities that are "expected" for bonuses, promotion, career growth etc.
Huh... here in the Netherlands we just call that .... work.
Depends on the part of the country and the industry but I've definitely noticed that what would be considered full-on, career-mode, hardo-shit in terms of working hours (outside of Zuidas weirdos who are really more plugged into the Global Imperium than they are to the rest of NL) in The Netherlands is just what is expected of like... a purchasing manager at a Midwestern US manufacturing company who wants to keep their job, definitely don't see the guys where my parents live in rural Friesland doing that, for sure.
posted by atrazine at 7:05 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I really like that hierarchy. Still think it works really well even post-covid and applies well to this.
Fundamentally, many parts of our economy, including the public sector, work by underpaying and under-rewarding work and then extracting extra labour through the promotion process. If you want to have a career where you get promoted, you have to go above and beyond (what you are getting paid for). This works just as long as there are substantial numbers of people who want those promotions and realistically can get them. Certainly I've seen in the public sector in the UK (where being fired is almost impossible) that people work extremely hard for their moderate pay up until the point where they've reached a certain level that they're unlikely to- / not interested in- exceeding and then just do their contracted hours and deliver average performance.
I think it's worth exploring that because we've built a system that at-best barely creaks along without people doing that extra work and putting in that effort so what happens when we run out of road to plausibly promise promotions?
I actually *don't* think this is work to rule. That is more about a recognition that if everyone did exactly what their job description said, most businesses simply couldn't run at all. It's a tactic short of a strike but is deliberately degrading the performance of the employer in order to demonstrate labour power and extract concessions. If the required work is getting done then it isn't a very effective Work to Rule.
This is more about doing the contracted number of hours but not doing the extra activities that are "expected" for bonuses, promotion, career growth etc.
Huh... here in the Netherlands we just call that .... work.
Depends on the part of the country and the industry but I've definitely noticed that what would be considered full-on, career-mode, hardo-shit in terms of working hours (outside of Zuidas weirdos who are really more plugged into the Global Imperium than they are to the rest of NL) in The Netherlands is just what is expected of like... a purchasing manager at a Midwestern US manufacturing company who wants to keep their job, definitely don't see the guys where my parents live in rural Friesland doing that, for sure.
posted by atrazine at 7:05 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's not quiet quitting, it's just inflation-adjusted effort.
posted by thoughtful_jester at 11:14 AM on August 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by thoughtful_jester at 11:14 AM on August 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
Simpsons did it first.
Homer Simpson: "Lisa, if you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way."
posted by FJT at 11:17 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Homer Simpson: "Lisa, if you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way."
posted by FJT at 11:17 AM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think maybe this was the story I was thinking of, there are others out there.
Finally fired after 6 years
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:36 PM on August 25, 2022
Finally fired after 6 years
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:36 PM on August 25, 2022
There's a big difference between "doing the job you were hired for, but stopping at 5pm" and "not doing any work at all during office hours" like that "finally fired" thread and the story that egypturnash linked to earlier. And I assume (possibly wrongly?) that the "quiet quitting" topic in the FPP refers to the first one.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:11 PM on August 25, 2022
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:11 PM on August 25, 2022
right, and I'm in the camp that it's a bit of misnomer vs. the latter.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:54 PM on August 25, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:54 PM on August 25, 2022
The really fun one is when you elect a large medical FSA withholding for the upcoming calendar year. Let's hypothetically say it's the max allowed. You spend it all on January 2nd and then quit later that week.
I've absolutely done this one! These middle-class looking teeth have come in quite handy in obtaining additional better paying work where I have also have aimed to extract as much value for as little work as possible.
posted by flamk at 5:52 PM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've absolutely done this one! These middle-class looking teeth have come in quite handy in obtaining additional better paying work where I have also have aimed to extract as much value for as little work as possible.
posted by flamk at 5:52 PM on August 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
> Greg_Ace: "There's a big difference between "doing the job you were hired for, but stopping at 5pm" and "not doing any work at all during office hours" like that "finally fired" thread"
I would argue that the "finally fired" guy was actually doing the job he was hired for. He just figured out a way to do it so efficiently that he didn't actually have to lift a finger to do it. Should he have informed his superiors of his methods? Should his superiors have figured out that they could have replaced this guy with a Python script and a cron job? Hard to say. But as far as the story is told, it seemed like the tasks that were supposed to be done were, in fact, being done.
A better example of "not doing any work at all" might be more like the Italian hospital employee who didn't show up to work for 15 years.
posted by mhum at 1:34 PM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I would argue that the "finally fired" guy was actually doing the job he was hired for. He just figured out a way to do it so efficiently that he didn't actually have to lift a finger to do it. Should he have informed his superiors of his methods? Should his superiors have figured out that they could have replaced this guy with a Python script and a cron job? Hard to say. But as far as the story is told, it seemed like the tasks that were supposed to be done were, in fact, being done.
A better example of "not doing any work at all" might be more like the Italian hospital employee who didn't show up to work for 15 years.
posted by mhum at 1:34 PM on August 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Gaining a bit in the news:
Feel the urge to 'quiet quit'? Time to check in with your mental health, experts say
OPINION: Quiet quitting is a call for workplace change
What happened when I sprinkled a bit of ‘quiet quitting’ in my workday
Is 'quiet quitting' a good idea? Here’s what workplace experts say
It’s not quiet quitting if you don’t shut up about it
TikToker explains what he thinks older generations miss when they criticize young people for ‘quiet quitting’: 'Incredibly discouraging'
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:16 AM on September 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Feel the urge to 'quiet quit'? Time to check in with your mental health, experts say
OPINION: Quiet quitting is a call for workplace change
What happened when I sprinkled a bit of ‘quiet quitting’ in my workday
Is 'quiet quitting' a good idea? Here’s what workplace experts say
It’s not quiet quitting if you don’t shut up about it
TikToker explains what he thinks older generations miss when they criticize young people for ‘quiet quitting’: 'Incredibly discouraging'
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:16 AM on September 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
(Sorry I got overzealous - a few articles are paywalled/login-walled)
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:21 AM on September 1, 2022
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:21 AM on September 1, 2022
LOL, now the QUEEN is "quiet quitting."
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:37 PM on September 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:37 PM on September 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
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