Everyone’s Hot As Hell In Hades II, As They Should Be
December 10, 2022 5:55 AM Subscribe
Hades II [Reveal Trailer][YouTube] [ Hades II FAQ] “The Game Awards happened [earlier this week] but we’re not here to talk about that. What we’re here to discuss, true believers, is Supergiant Games surprising everyone by breaking its “no-sequel” tradition in announcing Hades II and swiftly stepping on the gaming world’s collective necks with how attractive its characters are, again. And they’re not just hot, they’ve got some interesting historical lore behind them to boot. Whereas the 2020 action-roguelike Hades saw Zagreus battling his way up from Hades (the place) to meet his estranged bio-mom, Persephone, Hades II sees Zag’s sister, Melionë, descending into the underworld to beat up their dear old grandpappy, Chronos, the Titan of Time. Somewhere along the way, she’ll likely be charged with freeing Hades (the dude) from bondage.” [via: Kotaku]
• Everything we know about Hades 2 [Polygon]
• Everything we know about Hades 2 [Polygon]
“Hades 2 has a new protagonist — Melinoë. In the game’s lore, she Hades’ daughter and the sister of Zagreus, star of the first game. According to Supergiant, she’s “an immortal witch and sorceress with powerful magical abilities.” Like Zagreus, Melinoë isn’t a pure creation of Supergiant’s, but an existing figure from Greek mythology that the developer has adapted to fit its story. She’s a nymph or moon goddess, and a bringer of nightmares, associated with the queen of the underworld, Persephone, as well as with Hecate. Oh, and this is how to pronounce her name. [...] Hades 2 is a sequel, set after the events of the first game, both in and beyond the Underworld of Greek myth. The villain of the piece is Chronos, the Titan of Time, and Hades’ father. Chronos has escaped imprisonment in the Underworld to wage war on Olympus; Melinoë will take on his forces, assisted by “the full might of Olympus.” Supergiant promises “a bigger, deeper mythic world” than the first game, with “a sweeping story that continually unfolds through your every setback and accomplishment.” From the trailer and cast list, we can see that the game will also feature Moros, the spirit of impending doom; Apollo, god of light; and Nemesis, goddess of revenge, plus a cute “listless shade” called Dora, who might actually be Pandora.”• Hades 2 is here to remind you that Hades is still the worst dad ever [Rock Paper Shotgun]
“The first game didn't exactly show Hades' parenting skills in the best of lights, but the very fact that there's a Hades 2 with a different protagonist who's also one of his kids brings all sorts of new dimensions to the issue. Zagreus's story already confirmed that Hades is pretty hands-off as a father. I mean, Zag merrily alternated between fighting his own step-siblings to the death and snogging them, and if papa won't step in to stop that, what will trigger a parental intervention? [...] But throw in a second child who is also possessed of a burning rage that can only be worked out through a strenuous regimen of roguelike dungeon crawls, and now suddenly the picture is of a dude whose grown-up children all have active vendettas. That's not healthy, Hades! Talk to your kids about their problems before they develop into blood feuds! Make sure they understand that not every negative emotion needs to be resolved by hacking and/or slashing! Frankly, at this point, I'm kind of hoping that Hades 3 lets us step into the shoes of the big man himself to take an underworld parenting class. It could still be a roguelike! We could work on fighting our inner demons, eh, Hades?”• Everyone should play Hades at least once [The Sixth Axis] [Original Trailer for Hades][YouTube]
“The latest game from Supergiant, the creators of the almighty Bastion, Transistor, and the incredibly underrated but equally exceptional Pyre, brings all of the incredible flair and masterful gameplay that the devs are known for and wrangles it into a roguelike. Now, roguelike is an off-putting word for a lot of people, because it calls to mind the idea of endless repetition, struggle, and a general feeling of smashing your head into a wall. It’s not a genre that’s for everyone, and that’s completely understandable, but it’s also something that I implore you to push past or ignore to make sure you give Hades a try. Hades is a roguelike, sure, but it’s also probably the most revolutionary one in the genre’s history. While it does still have you blitzing through enemies and dying a lot, the suffering isn’t the point. Instead, the point is to live through and experience the story of Zagreus, the son of the god of the underworld and titular character, Hades. Poor old Zag’s had a bit of a rough hand dealt to him, and alongside not being able to find a job he likes, his dad’s also kind of a douche. You can try and escape, of course, but it’s no easy feat getting out of the underworld, especially given that everything there seems intent on trying to stop you. I’m not going to spoil anything here, but the more you play the game the more the story reveals itself, and it’s not just the overarching plotline either, but the individual characters you meet all have lives to live, and you can try and help all of them as you fight your way through the world.”
My daughters and I finished a run of Hades not twenty minutes ago. We are beyond excited for this sequel.
posted by saladin at 6:13 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by saladin at 6:13 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
My usual tastes in video games run to Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing, and I still love Hades. This game is basically for everyone. I can't wait for the sequel to officially drop!
That being said, does anyone have opinions on Supergiant's other games? Wondering if they're worth picking up.
posted by invokeuse at 8:05 AM on December 10, 2022
That being said, does anyone have opinions on Supergiant's other games? Wondering if they're worth picking up.
posted by invokeuse at 8:05 AM on December 10, 2022
That being said, does anyone have opinions on Supergiant's other games.
Transistor, in hindsight, is a dry run of a lot of the mechanics in Hades (isometric view, similar variety of baddies, big-ass sword you slam into the ground and slowly power up). The aesthetics are more Art Nouveau. The main difference is the writing, which is just a lot weaker than Hades's imposing network of relationships. It got good reviews, but I found it dissatisfying even before Hades came out.
posted by HeroZero at 8:10 AM on December 10, 2022
Transistor, in hindsight, is a dry run of a lot of the mechanics in Hades (isometric view, similar variety of baddies, big-ass sword you slam into the ground and slowly power up). The aesthetics are more Art Nouveau. The main difference is the writing, which is just a lot weaker than Hades's imposing network of relationships. It got good reviews, but I found it dissatisfying even before Hades came out.
posted by HeroZero at 8:10 AM on December 10, 2022
Pyre is their most underrated game. It's basically wizard basketball and I cannot recommend it enough. Supergiant said it's unlikely to ever arrive on the Switch due to development priorities being focused on Hades. And that feels like SUCH a loss. Because Pyre didn't have the impact it should have had it been on a more accessible device like the Switch and had they really pushed for a competitive scene. Check this gameplay trailer. Ugh, it hurts to even type about Pyre. But it is still available on Steam/PC and its definitely worth your time.
posted by Fizz at 8:15 AM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 8:15 AM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
All of them are fantastic in their own ways, though they really took things to the next level with Hades - they're all tightly-tuned action games with unique visual and narrative flair. Expect some of the same mechanical design sensibilities (the charged bow crit timing thing in Hades appears in some form in every single one of their games, I believe), but from a studio that's still finding its feet and voice in the earlier installments. And of course, excellent soundtracks by Darren Korb in all of them. (Who also voiced Zagreus and Skelly. It's a small studio!)
posted by NMcCoy at 8:16 AM on December 10, 2022
posted by NMcCoy at 8:16 AM on December 10, 2022
invokeuse, I remember BASTION (their first) getting a lot of love. It was quite novel when it came out. TRANSISTOR is apparently quite good too, but sounds complicated. PYRE also got some good buzz but never seemed to catch on. Nothing has quite hit like HADES though. Try BASTION!
I wish I could love HADES as much as everyone else but I’m just no good at it. With a good roll, I can get to Elysium but that’s the best I got. And I don’t get good rolls very often, so it just feels like gambling. *shrug*
posted by TangoCharlie at 8:19 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wish I could love HADES as much as everyone else but I’m just no good at it. With a good roll, I can get to Elysium but that’s the best I got. And I don’t get good rolls very often, so it just feels like gambling. *shrug*
posted by TangoCharlie at 8:19 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wish I could love HADES as much as everyone else but I’m just no good at it. With a good roll, I can get to Elysium but that’s the best I got. And I don’t get good rolls very often, so it just feels like gambling. *shrug*
Apologies if this is already a known thing, but have you messed around with their "God-Mode" b/c it is essentially their difficulty slider option and while it won't prevent you from dying outright, it does allow your HP to be increased (up until a certain fixed limit) after dying after a run, thereby making it a bit easier on your next go. Polygon has a whole ass guide/article. Check it out.
If you're still having trouble though with this enabled, then afraid its just a matter of trying to improve or setting it aside. Hope that helps.
posted by Fizz at 8:24 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Apologies if this is already a known thing, but have you messed around with their "God-Mode" b/c it is essentially their difficulty slider option and while it won't prevent you from dying outright, it does allow your HP to be increased (up until a certain fixed limit) after dying after a run, thereby making it a bit easier on your next go. Polygon has a whole ass guide/article. Check it out.
If you're still having trouble though with this enabled, then afraid its just a matter of trying to improve or setting it aside. Hope that helps.
posted by Fizz at 8:24 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Fizz, I think I had every conceivable purple aid turned on, but I’ll have to go back and check. I might have avoided god mode just on principle. Caveat: I’m playing handheld on a Switch, so while I don’t want to blame the tools, I do understand it to be the least preferable experience. It could also be my middle age.
I’ll pick it up again and take another look. It’s been at least six months. Maybe I’ll be amazing at it, after all that time.
posted by TangoCharlie at 8:42 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’ll pick it up again and take another look. It’s been at least six months. Maybe I’ll be amazing at it, after all that time.
posted by TangoCharlie at 8:42 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, I just looked at that Polygon article. I did NOT know that was how God Mode worked.
Maybe this is why people like HADES so much. So thoughtful.
posted by TangoCharlie at 8:50 AM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Maybe this is why people like HADES so much. So thoughtful.
posted by TangoCharlie at 8:50 AM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh great! If you're going to tease me with trailers for sequels to games I haven't played, I guess I'll just have to go and buy the original and play it already!
*dramatic sigh*
No but seriously, thanks for posting, this looks great and I've heard good things about Hades from...basically everywhere. This is the kick in the butt that'll get me to actually give it a go.
posted by Mister_Sleight_of_Hand at 9:02 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
*dramatic sigh*
No but seriously, thanks for posting, this looks great and I've heard good things about Hades from...basically everywhere. This is the kick in the butt that'll get me to actually give it a go.
posted by Mister_Sleight_of_Hand at 9:02 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Maybe this will get me off my butt to try Hades. Bastion was wonderful, but Transistor and Pyre were both so deeply dull I've been hesitant.
posted by one for the books at 9:04 AM on December 10, 2022
posted by one for the books at 9:04 AM on December 10, 2022
I guess I'm in the minority in loving Transistor more than any other Supergiant game. It's similar to Hades but hardly requires any twitch skills (there are some bits where you're running around and dodging, but there's no timed reactions). My twitch timing skills are lacking, so Transistor works better for me than Hades. That said, Hades is more coherent, Transistor feels like I'm reading sketches of a scene intended to evoke emotion, not two a story. Hades tells a story and evokes emotion, if not as much, at least for me. I never got around to beating Hades, so I can't say whether the ending is better, but I imagine it has to be. Transistor's ending was a real letdown.
posted by Hactar at 9:23 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 9:23 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
I enjoyed Transistor but I can see why one might find it dull; Hades is absolutely not dull. Definitely give it a chance, even if you think fighting games or roguelikes aren't your thing. It's an astonishingly well-designed game that's just a ton of fun to play. And yeah, turn on god mode with no shame if you're struggling! The point of the game is to have fun and get through the narrative, no reason to make that a punishing experience.
I'm so excited for Hades II, and I'm very curious about the ways it'll be different from Hades. TBH, if it's mostly just the same mechanics with a new character in some new locations, I'd probably be perfectly happy, but I'm interested to see if there'll be some new twists on the actual gameplay and what those could be.
posted by yasaman at 9:24 AM on December 10, 2022
I'm so excited for Hades II, and I'm very curious about the ways it'll be different from Hades. TBH, if it's mostly just the same mechanics with a new character in some new locations, I'd probably be perfectly happy, but I'm interested to see if there'll be some new twists on the actual gameplay and what those could be.
posted by yasaman at 9:24 AM on December 10, 2022
oh my GOD i am so excited for Hades 2.
i spent at least 150 glorious hours with the first one, my spouse probably double that. such a wonderful game, so stoked for a sequel!
posted by lazaruslong at 9:32 AM on December 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
i spent at least 150 glorious hours with the first one, my spouse probably double that. such a wonderful game, so stoked for a sequel!
posted by lazaruslong at 9:32 AM on December 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
I thought Bastion was pretty neat at the time, and had some excellent songs, and fantastic voiceover narration. I still hum Build That Wall on a pretty regular basis.
Things have only improved since. As great as the gameplay in the games are (and I agree with Fizz that Pyre is criminally underrated), it's the interpersonal narratives that I think really drive it. Both Bastion and Transistor have failing/doomed worlds in common (and Transistor is sad enough that I've never wanted to replay it, despite those sweet gameplay hooks, music, and art direction) and focus on a couple of very specific relationships. Pyre, Hades, and now Hades II all get more into family dynamics. I'd love to read a gameplay-informed academic analysis of Supergiant's motifs.
Also interested to hear from folks who play with the sound off or down. For me, the audio is at LEAST half the reason I enjoy the games so much.
posted by curious nu at 9:42 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Things have only improved since. As great as the gameplay in the games are (and I agree with Fizz that Pyre is criminally underrated), it's the interpersonal narratives that I think really drive it. Both Bastion and Transistor have failing/doomed worlds in common (and Transistor is sad enough that I've never wanted to replay it, despite those sweet gameplay hooks, music, and art direction) and focus on a couple of very specific relationships. Pyre, Hades, and now Hades II all get more into family dynamics. I'd love to read a gameplay-informed academic analysis of Supergiant's motifs.
Also interested to hear from folks who play with the sound off or down. For me, the audio is at LEAST half the reason I enjoy the games so much.
posted by curious nu at 9:42 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
That being said, does anyone have opinions on Supergiant's other games? Wondering if they're worth picking up.
I really enjoyed Bastion. Art, music, naration and story are amazing and the gameplay is solid. There is a free demo on Steam you should definitly check out.
The gameplay of transistor did not work for me at all, the mix of real time and paused ruined the flow for me. The story tries to appear deep, but in the couple hours I played nothing interesting actually happened.
I have not played Pyre, but reading the comments here that might be a mistake.
Quite pumped for Hades II, the first one was great. From this trailer it looks like they are not changing a ton and that's fine by me.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 10:03 AM on December 10, 2022
I really enjoyed Bastion. Art, music, naration and story are amazing and the gameplay is solid. There is a free demo on Steam you should definitly check out.
The gameplay of transistor did not work for me at all, the mix of real time and paused ruined the flow for me. The story tries to appear deep, but in the couple hours I played nothing interesting actually happened.
I have not played Pyre, but reading the comments here that might be a mistake.
Quite pumped for Hades II, the first one was great. From this trailer it looks like they are not changing a ton and that's fine by me.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 10:03 AM on December 10, 2022
I did NOT know that was how God Mode worked.
Yeah, I was really, really not having fun with Hades, absolutely hated it, until I gave myself permission to use god mode. I mean, I'm a big fan of my Switch as a platform, I love its portability, but it makes me feel like I have giant lobster claws instead of hands, for how uncoordinated I am with it. But having god mode let me sink into the story and the artwork and finally fall in love with the game!
posted by mittens at 10:15 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I was really, really not having fun with Hades, absolutely hated it, until I gave myself permission to use god mode. I mean, I'm a big fan of my Switch as a platform, I love its portability, but it makes me feel like I have giant lobster claws instead of hands, for how uncoordinated I am with it. But having god mode let me sink into the story and the artwork and finally fall in love with the game!
posted by mittens at 10:15 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
That being said, does anyone have opinions on Supergiant's other games? Wondering if they're worth picking up.
If you go in expecting them to be as good as Hades, you're going to be disappointed. Hades definitely takes the best parts from each of them and blends them perfectly, leaving their previous games feeling a bit like pale imitations. But they are still good games each in their own way, if you can get over the fact that Hades did a lot of the same stuff better.
Bastion already has the outlines of the Hades action game play, and it has great music and story. The whole conceit of how they use the narrator is still pretty cool, and the twist toward the end still packs an emotional punch. It was a groundbreaking indie title for it's time in a whole bunch of ways. But after playing Hades, the action can feel sort of loose and sloppy.
Transistor is starting to move towards the sort of tight, deliberate action style that they perfected in Hades, but the pausable tactical element is sort of Marmite-y. Some people love it, others hate it. The story is very operatic. It drops you into a world and situation with very little context but lots of big emotion, and characters that don't do very much but look and sound very cool doing it. It's extremely vibes-based.
Pyre is a triumph of world-building, and the branching, responsive narrative stuff they're doing is really astonishing. Most games that feature narrative choice use a certain amount of smoke and mirrors to make it appear that your decisions have a much bigger effect than they actually do. Pyre really does let you completely change the story line and the fates of your characters. Too bad that it requires multiple play throughs to really appreciate what they're actually doing. The story and character design are great, but unfortunately the actual game you're asked to play between the narrative scenes is sort of disappointing. It feels like some very smart designers trying to paper over the fact that the fundamental design of the game just isn't as interesting in play as it is on paper.
posted by firechicago at 10:49 AM on December 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
If you go in expecting them to be as good as Hades, you're going to be disappointed. Hades definitely takes the best parts from each of them and blends them perfectly, leaving their previous games feeling a bit like pale imitations. But they are still good games each in their own way, if you can get over the fact that Hades did a lot of the same stuff better.
Bastion already has the outlines of the Hades action game play, and it has great music and story. The whole conceit of how they use the narrator is still pretty cool, and the twist toward the end still packs an emotional punch. It was a groundbreaking indie title for it's time in a whole bunch of ways. But after playing Hades, the action can feel sort of loose and sloppy.
Transistor is starting to move towards the sort of tight, deliberate action style that they perfected in Hades, but the pausable tactical element is sort of Marmite-y. Some people love it, others hate it. The story is very operatic. It drops you into a world and situation with very little context but lots of big emotion, and characters that don't do very much but look and sound very cool doing it. It's extremely vibes-based.
Pyre is a triumph of world-building, and the branching, responsive narrative stuff they're doing is really astonishing. Most games that feature narrative choice use a certain amount of smoke and mirrors to make it appear that your decisions have a much bigger effect than they actually do. Pyre really does let you completely change the story line and the fates of your characters. Too bad that it requires multiple play throughs to really appreciate what they're actually doing. The story and character design are great, but unfortunately the actual game you're asked to play between the narrative scenes is sort of disappointing. It feels like some very smart designers trying to paper over the fact that the fundamental design of the game just isn't as interesting in play as it is on paper.
posted by firechicago at 10:49 AM on December 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
I wish there was a stronger version of god mode. I love the thoughtfulness behind its design - and it really is enough for a lot of players who are struggling. But I do wish there was a way to help players who need more, without making it too easy for players who don't. It's such a beautiful and fun game.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:50 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:50 AM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’m still not sure if I actually finished Hades! I have no time for this!
posted by Going To Maine at 10:51 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 10:51 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah god mode wasn't enough for me...I got very close to ruining my vocal chords last year playing it hands free using noise controls. At least at the time god mode did not add checkpoints, did that change? These games (roguelikes) are inherently very repetitive, which is absolutely a barrier to play for some people. Not trying to call anyone out here but just because it is a more approachable and accessible roguelike than others in the past does not mean it's for everyone.
Pyre on the other hand is an all time great, definitely very underrated. Despite simpler controls / easier to play, it has more imaginative writing and world building, and narrative mechanisms that are much more innovative than a roguelike.
posted by okonomichiyaki at 11:10 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Pyre on the other hand is an all time great, definitely very underrated. Despite simpler controls / easier to play, it has more imaginative writing and world building, and narrative mechanisms that are much more innovative than a roguelike.
posted by okonomichiyaki at 11:10 AM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
At least at the time god mode did not add checkpoints, did that change? These games (roguelikes) are inherently very repetitive, which is absolutely a barrier to play for some people.
No, there are no checkpoints, and I appreciate that the repetitiveness is going to be a barrier for some people, but the repetitiveness is also deeply ingrained in the design of the game and the way it tells its story. The way the game is written is bound up in the way you repeatedly encounter the same characters in run after run and hear them comment on your situation and past actions such that allowing a player to skip ahead to a checkpoint would actually mean that they're missing big chunks of content and entire character arcs. And the experience of repeating and slowly getting better and advancing further is deeply tied to the way the game conveys its themes. (To give one example, getting an attaboy from the eternally cheery Sisyphus and his best friend Bouldy hits different when you've just gotten crushed three runs in a row; and does so in a way that is a very intentional part of the designed experience of playing the game).
Unfortunately I think adding checkpoints to Hades would be like colorizing The Third Man or removing the archaic language from Shakespeare - a seemingly simple accessibility change that actually ends up radically altering the fabric of the work in a way that actually ends up requiring a complete rethinking of how it functions and what makes it worth experiencing.
posted by firechicago at 12:47 PM on December 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
No, there are no checkpoints, and I appreciate that the repetitiveness is going to be a barrier for some people, but the repetitiveness is also deeply ingrained in the design of the game and the way it tells its story. The way the game is written is bound up in the way you repeatedly encounter the same characters in run after run and hear them comment on your situation and past actions such that allowing a player to skip ahead to a checkpoint would actually mean that they're missing big chunks of content and entire character arcs. And the experience of repeating and slowly getting better and advancing further is deeply tied to the way the game conveys its themes. (To give one example, getting an attaboy from the eternally cheery Sisyphus and his best friend Bouldy hits different when you've just gotten crushed three runs in a row; and does so in a way that is a very intentional part of the designed experience of playing the game).
Unfortunately I think adding checkpoints to Hades would be like colorizing The Third Man or removing the archaic language from Shakespeare - a seemingly simple accessibility change that actually ends up radically altering the fabric of the work in a way that actually ends up requiring a complete rethinking of how it functions and what makes it worth experiencing.
posted by firechicago at 12:47 PM on December 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm skeptical of the claim that adding checkpoints somehow ruins roguelikes. Dead Cells added lives to their accessibility mode, I would have loved to see something like that in Hades.
radically altering the fabric of the work...what makes it worth experiencing
This may be true but, I never experienced much of the game past Meg, so kind of a moot point? I really don't want to yuck anyone's yum here, I believe everyone that the game is very good. I even enjoyed playing it myself! I had to jump through some ridiculous hoops (train a custom noise recognition machine learning model) to get there but it was extremely gratifying. I'm just resentful how much glorious praise was showered on it for being an "accessible roguelike" during the release of the game.
posted by okonomichiyaki at 1:31 PM on December 10, 2022
radically altering the fabric of the work...what makes it worth experiencing
This may be true but, I never experienced much of the game past Meg, so kind of a moot point? I really don't want to yuck anyone's yum here, I believe everyone that the game is very good. I even enjoyed playing it myself! I had to jump through some ridiculous hoops (train a custom noise recognition machine learning model) to get there but it was extremely gratifying. I'm just resentful how much glorious praise was showered on it for being an "accessible roguelike" during the release of the game.
posted by okonomichiyaki at 1:31 PM on December 10, 2022
I'm with okonomichiyaki on this. There's certainly an argument to be made that a checkpoint-vs-checkpointless experience is fundamentally different, but that's not a reason to NOT have it. This is something that comes up repeatedly with accessibility conversations in gaming, with some folks claiming that to offer options for people with different limits (physical ability, time, whatever) is a kind of "watered down" experience. Someone(s) making a game, or any other piece of media, can make a choice about how much they want to accommodate people with different needs, but if your storytelling relies on excluding some people, you should take a step back and deeply investigate what, exactly, you're trying to say, and what you may be saying without realizing it.
This gets to accessible-to-general-audience vs accessible-to-people-with-accessibility-needs and how we use the word "accessible." I think we should probably find a different word for the former unless the disability communities have some other words they'd like others to use. Hades is certainly more accessible to a wider gaming audience in terms of difficulty, but that's still mostly limited to people who can use a standard gaming controller or keyboard-mouse setup.
Here's hoping Hades II has more options for folks that need different control systems. Hades was an incredible experience for me (it made me want to try and get some kind of reconciliation with my own dad, which I did not think was possible) and I hope more people can get that kind of thing from Supergiant's next game.
posted by curious nu at 2:12 PM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
This gets to accessible-to-general-audience vs accessible-to-people-with-accessibility-needs and how we use the word "accessible." I think we should probably find a different word for the former unless the disability communities have some other words they'd like others to use. Hades is certainly more accessible to a wider gaming audience in terms of difficulty, but that's still mostly limited to people who can use a standard gaming controller or keyboard-mouse setup.
Here's hoping Hades II has more options for folks that need different control systems. Hades was an incredible experience for me (it made me want to try and get some kind of reconciliation with my own dad, which I did not think was possible) and I hope more people can get that kind of thing from Supergiant's next game.
posted by curious nu at 2:12 PM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm skeptical of the claim that adding checkpoints somehow ruins roguelikes. Dead Cells added lives to their accessibility mode, I would have loved to see something like that in Hades.
I agree. I'm not even saying that adding checkpoints would ruin Hades. I'm struggling to articulate what I am saying without diving deep into late game spoilers for the game, but here goes:
Let's say you add a checkpointing system, so once you defeat Megaera, you can jump straight to the second part of the underworld. This opens a whole host of mechanical questions: do you always start the second part of the underworld with the same loadout you beat Meg with? do you get a randomized loadout? Do you get to choose whatever loadout you want?
There are also a whole bunch of narrative questions. There's a whole plotline about Zagreus and Megaera's relationship that only unlocks after you beat her and only makes sense in the context of Zagreus beating Megaera and then continuing to come back to fight her. Is that relationship now completely skippable? Do you rewrite it to make sense in this different context? Do you find some way to just give the player those conversations quickfire without making them play through the whole first section repeatedly? (And this only gets thornier when you get to the end of the game and there are entire sections of the main plot that depend on repeated confrontations over multiple runs. Beating the boss at the end of the underworld is not the end of the story, in a way that makes it hard to figure out what checkpointing would even mean for that interaction).
My point is not that there aren't potentially good answers to these questions, or that trying to answer them would ruin Hades. My point is that answering them involves doing the design and editorial work of making the game in a way that makes this hypothetical version of Hades with checkpoints a meaningfully different designed experience than the version of Hades that Supergiant actually made. Just like there's no version of The Third Man that answers the question "What color is the light through the fog in the sewer scene?" that's the same movie as the one Orson Welles made, because that movie was built from the ground up to take advantage of the affordances of black and white as a movie-making medium.
Maybe your colorized version of The Third Man is better than the one Orson Welles made. Maybe it's not, or it's just different. Maybe it's existence would be justified purely on accessibility grounds, whether or not it was better. But asking Orson Welles to make it means asking Orson Welles to make a seriously different movie than the one he made from the ground up, and asking Supergiant to make a Hades with checkpoints is asking them to redesign their game.
I'm all for more accessibility. I think it would be great if there were more hands-free options for playing games! But sometimes media objects are designed around specific affordances of their medium in ways that make specific types of accessibility cut against the designed experience, and I don't think it makes them bad creators to do so, or that they have a moral responsibility to re-design their creations for every possible combination of abilities.
posted by firechicago at 2:30 PM on December 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
I agree. I'm not even saying that adding checkpoints would ruin Hades. I'm struggling to articulate what I am saying without diving deep into late game spoilers for the game, but here goes:
Let's say you add a checkpointing system, so once you defeat Megaera, you can jump straight to the second part of the underworld. This opens a whole host of mechanical questions: do you always start the second part of the underworld with the same loadout you beat Meg with? do you get a randomized loadout? Do you get to choose whatever loadout you want?
There are also a whole bunch of narrative questions. There's a whole plotline about Zagreus and Megaera's relationship that only unlocks after you beat her and only makes sense in the context of Zagreus beating Megaera and then continuing to come back to fight her. Is that relationship now completely skippable? Do you rewrite it to make sense in this different context? Do you find some way to just give the player those conversations quickfire without making them play through the whole first section repeatedly? (And this only gets thornier when you get to the end of the game and there are entire sections of the main plot that depend on repeated confrontations over multiple runs. Beating the boss at the end of the underworld is not the end of the story, in a way that makes it hard to figure out what checkpointing would even mean for that interaction).
My point is not that there aren't potentially good answers to these questions, or that trying to answer them would ruin Hades. My point is that answering them involves doing the design and editorial work of making the game in a way that makes this hypothetical version of Hades with checkpoints a meaningfully different designed experience than the version of Hades that Supergiant actually made. Just like there's no version of The Third Man that answers the question "What color is the light through the fog in the sewer scene?" that's the same movie as the one Orson Welles made, because that movie was built from the ground up to take advantage of the affordances of black and white as a movie-making medium.
Maybe your colorized version of The Third Man is better than the one Orson Welles made. Maybe it's not, or it's just different. Maybe it's existence would be justified purely on accessibility grounds, whether or not it was better. But asking Orson Welles to make it means asking Orson Welles to make a seriously different movie than the one he made from the ground up, and asking Supergiant to make a Hades with checkpoints is asking them to redesign their game.
I'm all for more accessibility. I think it would be great if there were more hands-free options for playing games! But sometimes media objects are designed around specific affordances of their medium in ways that make specific types of accessibility cut against the designed experience, and I don't think it makes them bad creators to do so, or that they have a moral responsibility to re-design their creations for every possible combination of abilities.
posted by firechicago at 2:30 PM on December 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
A good compromise might be giving you the choice when you die to either 'die' back to the beginning or just rewind back to the last checkpoint. This keeps the game almost-linear and avoids lots of the narrative and loadout problems.
posted by kaibutsu at 2:35 PM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kaibutsu at 2:35 PM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't think it makes them bad creators to do so, or that they have a moral responsibility to re-design their creations for every possible combination of abilities
I also don't think that they are bad creators, or that they have a moral responsibility to do anything. I do think people (games critics / reviewers mostly) should maybe think twice before saying / writing "everyone should play X game"
and 1000% agree with curious nu about the use of the word "accessible" as its used in headlines like this
posted by okonomichiyaki at 2:37 PM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I also don't think that they are bad creators, or that they have a moral responsibility to do anything. I do think people (games critics / reviewers mostly) should maybe think twice before saying / writing "everyone should play X game"
and 1000% agree with curious nu about the use of the word "accessible" as its used in headlines like this
posted by okonomichiyaki at 2:37 PM on December 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I loved the game for the beauty of it. The design, the time taken to make it so visually appealing, yet clearly unified. That, when I opened the box for the PS4 disc, it came with an art book of the characters instead of an instruction booklet. Hades took time to build in my low key favorite part of games: the moment of quiet beauty that has almost nothing to do with gameplay, but serves the story, like, say, the song that comes out of nowhere in Red Dead as Marston heads across the border, or damn near every sunrise in Horizon Forbidden West.
Spoiler for an old game:
The sunrise is Hades gorgeous, but requires you to step off the path and choose to stand at the edge of the cliff to trigger the scene. The first time, it’s the first time Zagreus has ever seen the sun. I stopped to watch it every time I got the chance, and it never got any less beautiful for me.
posted by Ghidorah at 4:15 PM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Spoiler for an old game:
The sunrise is Hades gorgeous, but requires you to step off the path and choose to stand at the edge of the cliff to trigger the scene. The first time, it’s the first time Zagreus has ever seen the sun. I stopped to watch it every time I got the chance, and it never got any less beautiful for me.
posted by Ghidorah at 4:15 PM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
I got pretty into the first Hades, but had an end-game run that cleared multiple goals and... didn't quite beat hades. but went back to the starting point. got my rewards, rechecked my gear , felt fairly satisfied. made sure I saved.
next time i start? it's before my final run. Everything is gone, and unrecoverable and its -lootbox- "roguelite" items don't happen again.
Ragequit.
Uninstalled.
Fuck Hades and its money grubbing sequel.
posted by lkc at 5:53 PM on December 10, 2022
next time i start? it's before my final run. Everything is gone, and unrecoverable and its -lootbox- "roguelite" items don't happen again.
Ragequit.
Uninstalled.
Fuck Hades and its money grubbing sequel.
posted by lkc at 5:53 PM on December 10, 2022
It would have been funnier if instead of “Hades II” it was “Hadeez nuts,” amirite?
posted by kerf at 5:57 PM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by kerf at 5:57 PM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hm. I was a very early access player of Hades, and I'm pretty sure there were checkpoints (or at least, checkpoints as I understood them for Hades, which is what made it rogue'like'. No? I mean, when you die you don't completely lose evvvvvverything, and I thought that you could save the game at in-between spots. I thought if it was truly 'rogue-y, you always had to go back to the beginning, you couldn't save in the middle of any attempt, and retained nothing. (Although now looking at the wiki entry, says the definition of what exactly a roguelike is, is debatable. : )
posted by bitterkitten at 7:10 PM on December 10, 2022
posted by bitterkitten at 7:10 PM on December 10, 2022
My first DND character is Melinoe. I started developing her story about 4 years ago. So excited to not have to explain who she is in Greek Mythology anymore lmao
posted by The Adventure Begins at 8:37 PM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by The Adventure Begins at 8:37 PM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Gods, I loved this game.
The difficulty stuff is interesting. Inexplicably I ignored the purple mirror stuff when i first started playing it and nearly gave up cos i just couldn't get past Meg; a lot of people I knew needed to upgrade far less than i eventually did to beat her. By the time i was beating runs i felt like i was pretty much brilliant at the game on switch; then I changed to xbox and started a new save. Without any upgrades i was swiftly reminded of how much more I'd struggled early on. I still loved it though.
If i understand the checkpoint thing right, the ask is to get to do-over parts of a specific run rather than just to be able to save the game, put it down and come back later? Which is interesting cos you'd lose not just the "feel" of the game (which, sure, who cares) but you'd miss a ton of the story and dialogue, if you chose to always use the checkpoint saves and essentially do a deathless run through the game.
Maybe the best solution is to allow this as an option with a warning to that effect? Or maybe from the dev side there's like, an obvious minimum number of deaths to recommend so you see enough? But the ideal still feels like adding more tunability to the overall difficulty to get players in the sweet spot where dyinging in the game is annoying enough to get the emotional resonance with the story mechanics, but not so frustrating as to stop it being a good experience.
posted by ominous_paws at 10:59 PM on December 10, 2022
The difficulty stuff is interesting. Inexplicably I ignored the purple mirror stuff when i first started playing it and nearly gave up cos i just couldn't get past Meg; a lot of people I knew needed to upgrade far less than i eventually did to beat her. By the time i was beating runs i felt like i was pretty much brilliant at the game on switch; then I changed to xbox and started a new save. Without any upgrades i was swiftly reminded of how much more I'd struggled early on. I still loved it though.
If i understand the checkpoint thing right, the ask is to get to do-over parts of a specific run rather than just to be able to save the game, put it down and come back later? Which is interesting cos you'd lose not just the "feel" of the game (which, sure, who cares) but you'd miss a ton of the story and dialogue, if you chose to always use the checkpoint saves and essentially do a deathless run through the game.
Maybe the best solution is to allow this as an option with a warning to that effect? Or maybe from the dev side there's like, an obvious minimum number of deaths to recommend so you see enough? But the ideal still feels like adding more tunability to the overall difficulty to get players in the sweet spot where dyinging in the game is annoying enough to get the emotional resonance with the story mechanics, but not so frustrating as to stop it being a good experience.
posted by ominous_paws at 10:59 PM on December 10, 2022
Dead Cells added lives to their accessibility mod
Exactly what i missed that nearly made my delete the game was that one of the mirror upgrades IS extra lives - you can get this up to maybe three? So yeah, letting this be tweakable as high as you like would be an obvious move. I think to really have players get everything out of the game they'd need to pair it with a thoughtful guidance to the effect of "hey tune all this so you die sometimes but not enough that it feels bad".
posted by ominous_paws at 11:09 PM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Exactly what i missed that nearly made my delete the game was that one of the mirror upgrades IS extra lives - you can get this up to maybe three? So yeah, letting this be tweakable as high as you like would be an obvious move. I think to really have players get everything out of the game they'd need to pair it with a thoughtful guidance to the effect of "hey tune all this so you die sometimes but not enough that it feels bad".
posted by ominous_paws at 11:09 PM on December 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
I did not understand what I was doing in Pyre at all. It just felt like I was walking in a circle and getting dunked on. I got two matches in, didn't understand why I was winning or losing.
I admit that I'm not excited about Hades 2. I beat the first one multiple times in early access (before there was even an ending), then reinstalled it and beat it a few more times just to see the proper ending. But I'm pretty done with roguelikes, and Hades wasn't even one of my favorites (those two being Dead Cells and Enter the Gungeon).
posted by meowzilla at 1:03 AM on December 11, 2022
I admit that I'm not excited about Hades 2. I beat the first one multiple times in early access (before there was even an ending), then reinstalled it and beat it a few more times just to see the proper ending. But I'm pretty done with roguelikes, and Hades wasn't even one of my favorites (those two being Dead Cells and Enter the Gungeon).
posted by meowzilla at 1:03 AM on December 11, 2022
I got pretty into the first Hades, but had an end-game run that cleared multiple goals and... didn't quite beat hades. but went back to the starting point. got my rewards, rechecked my gear , felt fairly satisfied. made sure I saved.
next time i start? it's before my final run. Everything is gone, and unrecoverable and its -lootbox- "roguelite" items don't happen again.
Ragequit.
Uninstalled.
Fuck Hades and its money grubbing sequel.
posted by lkc
maybe my ND is showing but I cannot tell if this is satire or not...it sounds like you are describing the game loop?
posted by lazaruslong at 2:35 AM on December 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
next time i start? it's before my final run. Everything is gone, and unrecoverable and its -lootbox- "roguelite" items don't happen again.
Ragequit.
Uninstalled.
Fuck Hades and its money grubbing sequel.
posted by lkc
maybe my ND is showing but I cannot tell if this is satire or not...it sounds like you are describing the game loop?
posted by lazaruslong at 2:35 AM on December 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
That being said, does anyone have opinions on Supergiant's other games? Wondering if they're worth picking up.
Bastion is a satisfying play but probably the most generic. I found it just ok. (Bastion also regularly gets discounted to very cheap so worth picking up then)
Transistor is my favourite Supergiant game (though I agree it's pretty much mostly 'vibes-based'). More a rainy night, turn off all lights, settle into a moody and not too difficult experience kind of game.
Pyre is innovative narratively and gave me the most emotional experience of these three. For me it was one of those pieces of media that make you feel like 'I've just had a life-changing experience!' where you feel a bit lost and untethered from the world afterwards.
Bastion and Transistor are easy to play and Pyre is harder like Hades (and is the most like Hades).
posted by womb of things to be and tomb of things that were at 2:36 AM on December 11, 2022
Bastion is a satisfying play but probably the most generic. I found it just ok. (Bastion also regularly gets discounted to very cheap so worth picking up then)
Transistor is my favourite Supergiant game (though I agree it's pretty much mostly 'vibes-based'). More a rainy night, turn off all lights, settle into a moody and not too difficult experience kind of game.
Pyre is innovative narratively and gave me the most emotional experience of these three. For me it was one of those pieces of media that make you feel like 'I've just had a life-changing experience!' where you feel a bit lost and untethered from the world afterwards.
Bastion and Transistor are easy to play and Pyre is harder like Hades (and is the most like Hades).
posted by womb of things to be and tomb of things that were at 2:36 AM on December 11, 2022
Pyre really does let you completely change the story line and the fates of your characters. Too bad that it requires multiple play throughs to really appreciate what they're actually doing.
I've only played it once but as the ending played through I immediately realised and was awed by how much work would've gone into that section!! So I don't think it necessarily needs replaying if you're not a repeat player/viewer/reader type of person, once through is enough to appreciate the kind of experience it intends.
posted by womb of things to be and tomb of things that were at 2:52 AM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've only played it once but as the ending played through I immediately realised and was awed by how much work would've gone into that section!! So I don't think it necessarily needs replaying if you're not a repeat player/viewer/reader type of person, once through is enough to appreciate the kind of experience it intends.
posted by womb of things to be and tomb of things that were at 2:52 AM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Or maybe from the dev side there's like, an obvious minimum number of deaths to recommend so you see enough?
I wonder about an extended version of the god mode that they already have. They decided to cap it where they did: Why? I think the answer is that if the assistance kept increasing, it would become too easy. You don't want players to reach the point where there's no challenge and they never die.
So what about tiered god modes? You struggle some, ... turn on the first one. If you hit the cap but are still not making it out of an area, then a second tier of god mode becomes available after a certain amount of tries. And so on.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:30 AM on December 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wonder about an extended version of the god mode that they already have. They decided to cap it where they did: Why? I think the answer is that if the assistance kept increasing, it would become too easy. You don't want players to reach the point where there's no challenge and they never die.
So what about tiered god modes? You struggle some, ... turn on the first one. If you hit the cap but are still not making it out of an area, then a second tier of god mode becomes available after a certain amount of tries. And so on.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:30 AM on December 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I played Pyre when it came out as it had fairly low system requirements for my old laptop, and it was so... charming? is that the right word? It just did all of it's things so well, and was so polished. I loved it. The narrative is really engaging, even if the gameplay is a bit eccentric at times, and I would highly recommend it.
Hades was on GamePass for a period. By that point all the hype had made it pretty well known, so I downloaded it and played it. It is HARD. I bounced off it the first time I played, but a couple of weeks later I gave it another go, and it started to click.
Eventually, playing it a couple of time a week I think I got to the third biome? Elysium maybe? It fell off GamePass shortly after, and I made the judgement that I had gotten 80% of the value out of it that I was going to get, so I didn't purchase it.
That makes it sound like it's perhaps not the greatest game, but I can remember a version of me a decade or so ago that would have taken the challenge and absolutely sunk myself into it; I'm just not that man anymore. It is a VERY GOOD GAME, that doesn't shy away from it's difficulty, and I think it manages to walk the line between rewarding and punishing pretty well. It's another really well crafted game, and the roguelike elements are actually quite good at making each run feel different.
As others have mentioned, Dead Cells has similar vibes, but I think is maybe just a tad more rewarding; The difficulty increases as you improve, so you are able to complete the game sooner in the learning curve than Hades, but you can choose higher difficulty on subsequent playthroughs for better rewards.
posted by trif at 5:47 AM on December 12, 2022
Hades was on GamePass for a period. By that point all the hype had made it pretty well known, so I downloaded it and played it. It is HARD. I bounced off it the first time I played, but a couple of weeks later I gave it another go, and it started to click.
Eventually, playing it a couple of time a week I think I got to the third biome? Elysium maybe? It fell off GamePass shortly after, and I made the judgement that I had gotten 80% of the value out of it that I was going to get, so I didn't purchase it.
That makes it sound like it's perhaps not the greatest game, but I can remember a version of me a decade or so ago that would have taken the challenge and absolutely sunk myself into it; I'm just not that man anymore. It is a VERY GOOD GAME, that doesn't shy away from it's difficulty, and I think it manages to walk the line between rewarding and punishing pretty well. It's another really well crafted game, and the roguelike elements are actually quite good at making each run feel different.
As others have mentioned, Dead Cells has similar vibes, but I think is maybe just a tad more rewarding; The difficulty increases as you improve, so you are able to complete the game sooner in the learning curve than Hades, but you can choose higher difficulty on subsequent playthroughs for better rewards.
posted by trif at 5:47 AM on December 12, 2022
Hades almost ended my marriage. I haven't dumped so many hours into a video game since... maybe starcraft in college?
I'm going to have to pace myself with this. I'm absolutely elated that we're getting a sequel - because I distinctly remember researching this topic and just about every website said "don't expect a sequel."
This feels like a manifested a very cool and specific timeline.
Like when I found out they were gonna cast Keanu as Spike Spiegel.
..but that ended in tears... so I'm gonna try to manifest some reasonable expectations.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:25 AM on December 12, 2022
I'm going to have to pace myself with this. I'm absolutely elated that we're getting a sequel - because I distinctly remember researching this topic and just about every website said "don't expect a sequel."
This feels like a manifested a very cool and specific timeline.
Like when I found out they were gonna cast Keanu as Spike Spiegel.
..but that ended in tears... so I'm gonna try to manifest some reasonable expectations.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:25 AM on December 12, 2022
As someone who's rolled credits on Hades but never got the feast - I don't know how you do checkpoints in Hades.
So much of getting good at Hades is bound up in your build choices in Tartarus, and taking combinations that will give you appealing options no matter what gods you roll in Asphodel and especially Elysium, where it's basically too late to fix a bad build. With a checkpoint, presumably you'd keep the same build, but if you want a checkpoint, odds are you don't have a build good enough to make decent progress. And that's not even talking about how the narrative is structured around frequent deaths advancing the storyline; I actually advanced pretty quickly and it broke some narrative threads, because they were expecting a couple more deaths to let events play out than I had so a few story beats were in a somewhat weird sequence for me.
I can see one of the big design goals in Hades 2 being to work out how to square that circle, because people clearly want checkpoints for accessibility reasons, and I can see the utility in being able to quickly skip to the one boss that's reliably ending your run, but also a large part of why it works is because a run is such a complete, intricate experience.
posted by Merus at 5:01 PM on December 12, 2022
So much of getting good at Hades is bound up in your build choices in Tartarus, and taking combinations that will give you appealing options no matter what gods you roll in Asphodel and especially Elysium, where it's basically too late to fix a bad build. With a checkpoint, presumably you'd keep the same build, but if you want a checkpoint, odds are you don't have a build good enough to make decent progress. And that's not even talking about how the narrative is structured around frequent deaths advancing the storyline; I actually advanced pretty quickly and it broke some narrative threads, because they were expecting a couple more deaths to let events play out than I had so a few story beats were in a somewhat weird sequence for me.
I can see one of the big design goals in Hades 2 being to work out how to square that circle, because people clearly want checkpoints for accessibility reasons, and I can see the utility in being able to quickly skip to the one boss that's reliably ending your run, but also a large part of why it works is because a run is such a complete, intricate experience.
posted by Merus at 5:01 PM on December 12, 2022
(If people think Hades is challenge, and would like more of a challenge, lemme suggest that they try to reach the Nuclear Throne)
posted by Going To Maine at 5:26 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 5:26 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
But I'm pretty done with roguelikes, and Hades wasn't even one of my favorites (those two being Dead Cells and Enter the Gungeon).
The proliferation of roguelikes in the indie game scene sometimes makes me feel like level design is a dying art.
posted by HeroZero at 7:54 PM on December 12, 2022
The proliferation of roguelikes in the indie game scene sometimes makes me feel like level design is a dying art.
posted by HeroZero at 7:54 PM on December 12, 2022
I think it's a product of the limitations indies work under. Building levels is expensive, especially when you're also doing programming, design, art, and writing, and possibly also music and marketing; random generation lets you theoretically extend the life of the game in exchange for making individual areas feel a little more samey. There can also be creative reasons for it; random generation allows you to theoretically generate a world that's unique for every user, so they have to engage with your world and your systems instead of going online and getting someone else to tell them what to do. (Doing this well has proved to be very difficult indeed, probably more so than just building one good level. Indie sensation Hollow Knight was going to be procedurally generated, but the results were so unsatisfying they scaled back to just making a static world and just made a lot of it.)
posted by Merus at 9:47 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Merus at 9:47 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Seconding Nuclear Throne. It is fantastic, and I probably have played more hours total of Throne than Hades...
posted by kaibutsu at 8:53 AM on December 13, 2022
posted by kaibutsu at 8:53 AM on December 13, 2022
(I picked HADES up for the first time in eight months, turned on God Mode, and after three runs got to Hades! Which I had never done.
Admittedly my build was one of the best I’ve had - rapid-fire bow, Athena dodge shield, superpowered special attack. The kind of build that feels unbalanced, it was such a cakewalk. When I actually had to do some smart playing during the Hades fight I was woefully underprepared.)
posted by TangoCharlie at 6:59 PM on December 13, 2022
Admittedly my build was one of the best I’ve had - rapid-fire bow, Athena dodge shield, superpowered special attack. The kind of build that feels unbalanced, it was such a cakewalk. When I actually had to do some smart playing during the Hades fight I was woefully underprepared.)
posted by TangoCharlie at 6:59 PM on December 13, 2022
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posted by Fizz at 5:56 AM on December 10, 2022 [8 favorites]