"In the context of this wider lie."
March 25, 2023 1:14 PM Subscribe
How Pro Wrestling Explains Today's GOP
Abraham Josephine Riesman talks with Politico about her upcoming book, Ringmaster: Vince McMahon and the Unmaking of America (WaPo review, Rolling Stone excerpt, interview, interview).
Abraham Josephine Riesman talks with Politico about her upcoming book, Ringmaster: Vince McMahon and the Unmaking of America (WaPo review, Rolling Stone excerpt, interview, interview).
I am constantly flabbergasted by the popularity of wrestling here on the Blue, given the overarching message that violence is the solution to all issues that it preaches.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:47 PM on March 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 3:47 PM on March 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
Interesting article. Makes sense to me.
I think he greatly admires and looks up to Vince. And that you can just find from his tweets — that’s something that’s very much on the record — it is a consistent picture of, you know, this is a great man, Trump referring to Vince, this is somebody who has a good philosophy, this is somebody who knows how to thrill an audience. ...
We learned that the most important thing is entertaining people — basically the most important thing is pushing people’s buttons. And also learning that you can be a heel and be successful — you can be somebody who is hated and you can profit off that hatred.
posted by clawsoon at 4:19 PM on March 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think he greatly admires and looks up to Vince. And that you can just find from his tweets — that’s something that’s very much on the record — it is a consistent picture of, you know, this is a great man, Trump referring to Vince, this is somebody who has a good philosophy, this is somebody who knows how to thrill an audience. ...
We learned that the most important thing is entertaining people — basically the most important thing is pushing people’s buttons. And also learning that you can be a heel and be successful — you can be somebody who is hated and you can profit off that hatred.
posted by clawsoon at 4:19 PM on March 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mike Rogers lunges at Matt Gaetz during House speaker vote.
Holy shit CSPAN was absolute fire that day. One of the mysteries we discussed was what do they actually want? What concessions are they seeking for their vote? Well, they wanted a spectacle. They wanted to put on a show. They got it. Kevin was humiliated, repeatedly, deliciously, pointlessly. We now know one of their demands was handing over Jan 6 security footage to Tucker Carlson so he could put on a show too.
Martin Luther King Jr learnt his oratory skills from the pulpit. Obama had elements of that, combined with the measure of a Harvard law professor. The lecture hall and the church, intellectual and spiritual. Trump learnt from the circus, the wrestling ring, and reality TV. Pure spectacle, all show, available to all - this is key. People resent being preached to, they resent being lectured. Everyone loves a show though - when I remarked that day that this was the most fucking awesome CSPAN ever was, many people here agreed with me.
posted by adept256 at 4:19 PM on March 25, 2023 [25 favorites]
Holy shit CSPAN was absolute fire that day. One of the mysteries we discussed was what do they actually want? What concessions are they seeking for their vote? Well, they wanted a spectacle. They wanted to put on a show. They got it. Kevin was humiliated, repeatedly, deliciously, pointlessly. We now know one of their demands was handing over Jan 6 security footage to Tucker Carlson so he could put on a show too.
Martin Luther King Jr learnt his oratory skills from the pulpit. Obama had elements of that, combined with the measure of a Harvard law professor. The lecture hall and the church, intellectual and spiritual. Trump learnt from the circus, the wrestling ring, and reality TV. Pure spectacle, all show, available to all - this is key. People resent being preached to, they resent being lectured. Everyone loves a show though - when I remarked that day that this was the most fucking awesome CSPAN ever was, many people here agreed with me.
posted by adept256 at 4:19 PM on March 25, 2023 [25 favorites]
You know, some people don't want to deal with reality. Maybe this is what fascism was all along. When we look at history, it is always through the lens of our current reality. Maybe now, with rampant inflation, extreme inequality and huge differences in perception between urban and rural areas, we are revisiting the conflicts of a hundred years ago with new perspectives.
Maybe the republicans don't want anything at all, except to be able to pretend something. Pretend that America is like a 1950s sitcom. Pretend that they are the good guys. Pretend that global warming is a communist plot. They know it isn't true, but they prefer the kayfabe. Maybe that is what fascism has always been.
posted by mumimor at 4:45 PM on March 25, 2023 [82 favorites]
Maybe the republicans don't want anything at all, except to be able to pretend something. Pretend that America is like a 1950s sitcom. Pretend that they are the good guys. Pretend that global warming is a communist plot. They know it isn't true, but they prefer the kayfabe. Maybe that is what fascism has always been.
posted by mumimor at 4:45 PM on March 25, 2023 [82 favorites]
You know, some people don't want to deal with reality. Maybe this is what fascism was all along. When we look at history, it is always through the lens of our current reality. Maybe now, with rampant inflation, extreme inequality and huge differences in perception between urban and rural areas, we are revisiting the conflicts of a hundred years ago with new perspectives.
Maybe the republicans don't want anything at all, except to be able to pretend something. Pretend that America is like a 1950s sitcom. Pretend that they are the good guys. Pretend that global warming is a communist plot. They know it isn't true, but they prefer the kayfabe. Maybe that is what fascism has always been.
There's something about the cadence of what you wrote, mumimor, that I can only hear Linus Van Pelt saying that.
"That's what fascism is all about, Charlie Brown."
posted by Ickster at 4:56 PM on March 25, 2023 [36 favorites]
Maybe the republicans don't want anything at all, except to be able to pretend something. Pretend that America is like a 1950s sitcom. Pretend that they are the good guys. Pretend that global warming is a communist plot. They know it isn't true, but they prefer the kayfabe. Maybe that is what fascism has always been.
There's something about the cadence of what you wrote, mumimor, that I can only hear Linus Van Pelt saying that.
"That's what fascism is all about, Charlie Brown."
posted by Ickster at 4:56 PM on March 25, 2023 [36 favorites]
and I hope that this is a moment where we can sort of wake up to the fact that the strategy of just fact-checking the other side doesn’t work. Because that’s not what fascism believes. It doesn’t believe in consistency. It doesn’t believe in all the truth or all the lie. It believes in total chaos. And that’s what we have under neokayfabe.
A very important lesson that the left, especially moderate liberals, need to understand is that WWE wrestling is absolutely fake in a sinister way that makes you want to buy in to it on some level even as you acknowledge that it is fiction, but this also applies to Aaron Sorkin's The West Wing.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:57 PM on March 25, 2023 [27 favorites]
A very important lesson that the left, especially moderate liberals, need to understand is that WWE wrestling is absolutely fake in a sinister way that makes you want to buy in to it on some level even as you acknowledge that it is fiction, but this also applies to Aaron Sorkin's The West Wing.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:57 PM on March 25, 2023 [27 favorites]
Ghostride the whip called it in 2011
posted by lalochezia at 5:00 PM on March 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 5:00 PM on March 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
Martin Luther King Jr learnt his oratory skills from the pulpit. Obama had elements of that, combined with the measure of a Harvard law professor. The lecture hall and the church, intellectual and spiritual. Trump learnt from the circus, the wrestling ring, and reality TV. Pure spectacle, all show, available to all - this is key. People resent being preached to, they resent being lectured.
Lots of people loved listening to MLK and Obama, so you're probably using "people" too broadly here.
posted by clawsoon at 5:16 PM on March 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
Lots of people loved listening to MLK and Obama, so you're probably using "people" too broadly here.
posted by clawsoon at 5:16 PM on March 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
People who do evil don't want to listen to people telling them there is a better way? That they could be better people and find pride in not being inside the womb of more evil?
posted by Jacen at 5:39 PM on March 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 5:39 PM on March 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know if Politico is going to be a reliable source when it comes to charting how American politics has become all show and no substance, as an organisation that is notorious for dutifully covering the show and never even suggesting that there might be anything substantial to discuss.
posted by Merus at 5:44 PM on March 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Merus at 5:44 PM on March 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
White people don't like to feel like they're being lectured by black people?
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:54 PM on March 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:54 PM on March 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am constantly flabbergasted by the popularity of wrestling here on the Blue
Not surprising, because your words indicate you’re missing the point. Violence is not the solution, it’s the friction of the drama that leads to the catharsis of the bell ringing. It’s a soap opera, a drama of cartoonish personalities clashing over made-up titles.
You might as well say you’re flabbergasted by the popularity of Spider-Man, or the popularity of a martial arts exhibition, or the popularity of a Wild West show.
Not surprising, because your words indicate you’re missing the point. Violence is not the solution, it’s the friction of the drama that leads to the catharsis of the bell ringing. It’s a soap opera, a drama of cartoonish personalities clashing over made-up titles.
You might as well say you’re flabbergasted by the popularity of Spider-Man, or the popularity of a martial arts exhibition, or the popularity of a Wild West show.
When the hero or the villain of the drama, the man who was seen a few minutes earlier possessed by moral rage, magnified into a sort of metaphysical sign, leaves the wrestling hall, impassive, anonymous, carrying a small suitcase and arm-in-arm with his wife, no one can doubt that wrestling holds the power of transmutation which is common to the Spectacle and to Religious Worship. In the ring, and even in the depths of their voluntary ignominy, wrestlers remain gods because they are, for a few moments, the key which opens Nature, the pure gesture which separates Good from Evil, and unveils the form of a Justice which is at last intelligible.posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:34 PM on March 25, 2023 [24 favorites]
—Roland Barthes, "Mythologies" (1957)
Pro wrestling is reality tv for adolescent boys and adolescent middle-aged men.
In a country whose most popular game show was "can you spell common words and phrases" and whose hardest trivia show was "are you smarter than a 5th grader",
well good thing they have nukes. /s
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 7:09 PM on March 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
In a country whose most popular game show was "can you spell common words and phrases" and whose hardest trivia show was "are you smarter than a 5th grader",
well good thing they have nukes. /s
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 7:09 PM on March 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
Please let's not shit on show-wrestling in this thread in a snide manner. If you don't want to learn what there is to learn from it as an institution, go to another thread!
posted by panhopticon at 7:19 PM on March 25, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by panhopticon at 7:19 PM on March 25, 2023 [19 favorites]
In a country whose most popular game show was "can you spell common words and phrases" and whose hardest trivia show was "are you smarter than a 5th grader",
What is Jeopardy?
posted by dragstroke at 7:52 PM on March 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
What is Jeopardy?
posted by dragstroke at 7:52 PM on March 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
We don't like it for the violence, we like it for the drama and the athleticism. Some, not all, of these performers do amazing things.
I recommend this post to anyone who wonders what the appeal is. Will RTFA tomorrow. Wondering if neokayfabe is what was dubbed hyper-reality, something I read about here on the blue in 2016 or so?
posted by vrakatar at 8:16 PM on March 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I recommend this post to anyone who wonders what the appeal is. Will RTFA tomorrow. Wondering if neokayfabe is what was dubbed hyper-reality, something I read about here on the blue in 2016 or so?
posted by vrakatar at 8:16 PM on March 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Omfg, what is this snide holier-than-thou commentary about fictional violence? Like I don’t like Game of Thrones but I can see there’s an appeal beyond “yessss violence!” Bizarre takes here.
posted by brook horse at 8:18 PM on March 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 8:18 PM on March 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
Omfg, what is this snide holier-than-thou commentary about fictional violence?
Because there is a strain of thought that argues that violence is inherently wrong. As I've said in prior threads, I find this belief to be morally suspect as it too often punishes victims for resorting to violence to protect and defend themselves.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:50 PM on March 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
Because there is a strain of thought that argues that violence is inherently wrong. As I've said in prior threads, I find this belief to be morally suspect as it too often punishes victims for resorting to violence to protect and defend themselves.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:50 PM on March 25, 2023 [13 favorites]
... "That's what fascism is all about, Charlie Brown."
Que Bruebeck's "Brandenburg Gate"
posted by JoeXIII007 at 9:02 PM on March 25, 2023
Que Bruebeck's "Brandenburg Gate"
posted by JoeXIII007 at 9:02 PM on March 25, 2023
>> I am constantly flabbergasted by the popularity of wrestling here on the Blue
> Not surprising, because your words indicate you’re missing the point. Violence is not the solution, it’s the friction of the drama that leads to the catharsis of the bell ringing. It’s a soap opera, a drama of cartoonish personalities clashing over made-up titles.
it's about big men! in tights! both physically and mentally!
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:07 PM on March 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
> Not surprising, because your words indicate you’re missing the point. Violence is not the solution, it’s the friction of the drama that leads to the catharsis of the bell ringing. It’s a soap opera, a drama of cartoonish personalities clashing over made-up titles.
it's about big men! in tights! both physically and mentally!
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:07 PM on March 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Remember when Trump was trying to physically dominate and inflict pain on other world leaders by overpowering them during handshakes?
And Macron's response was to strengthen his grip through exercise ahead of their meeting?
This stuff is there all the time in most situations where human beings are in each other's physical presence, and you can always see the ripples if you look for them even though it doesn’t actually break the surface all that often.
Pro wrestling pulls it up into the light, exaggerates it, fetishizes it, and then monetizes it.
Trump made it the center of his Presidential campaign, but it’s been an important element of many campaigns — including Lincoln's!
posted by jamjam at 10:08 PM on March 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
And Macron's response was to strengthen his grip through exercise ahead of their meeting?
This stuff is there all the time in most situations where human beings are in each other's physical presence, and you can always see the ripples if you look for them even though it doesn’t actually break the surface all that often.
Pro wrestling pulls it up into the light, exaggerates it, fetishizes it, and then monetizes it.
Trump made it the center of his Presidential campaign, but it’s been an important element of many campaigns — including Lincoln's!
posted by jamjam at 10:08 PM on March 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
it's about big men! in tights! both physically and mentally!
BIG MEATY MEN SLAPPIN' MEAT!
posted by MrBadExample at 10:29 PM on March 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
BIG MEATY MEN SLAPPIN' MEAT!
posted by MrBadExample at 10:29 PM on March 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. If you haven't read the link, please don't start off the thread with just [quick reaction to keyword] (and then derail into some other thing you think is stupid).
posted by taz (staff) at 11:16 PM on March 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:16 PM on March 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Justin Trudeau probably wouldn’t have become Prime Minister of Canada if he hadn’t beaten up a Conservative Senator in a charity boxing match.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:49 AM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:49 AM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Who would have thunk that a column by Jay Rayner in the Guardian got me googling naked fireside wrestling scene from the 1969 movie Women in Love, and landing on a gay porn site. The world is so weird.
posted by mumimor at 5:40 AM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 5:40 AM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
This kind of nails somthing I've been thinking about for about a decade.
Before Trump's run for president, maybe 2012 or 2013, I was invited to a school friend's house to watch wrestling with some of the other guys I knew in middle school and junior high, mostly. Wrestling wasn't my jam, but I figured it'd be fun and a good chance to catch up and have snacks.
My key memory of wrestling in the 80s was the over-the-top silliness.
What struck me, though, was summed up in a quote from this article: "cruelty was very popular."
One of the wrestlers drove his car out onto the set or whatever, made a big deal out of the importance of the car. After he was defeated in the match, the winner made a show of defacing the car.
Car culture was a huge thing in my town when I was growing up. Like, enormous. People were identified by the cars they drove. "Hey, do you know so-and-so?" "Don't think so?" "Sure you do, he drives the 76 Corvette."
So it kind of floored me that the culmination of the match wasn't the win, it was defacing the car. It wasn't enough to win, there had to be humiliation and gloating.
That turned me off, a lot. But everybody else was into it. I ended up disconnecting from that group of friends not long after when it really became clear where they stood on politics after Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson. I found myself constantly on the other side of discussions and arguments about police brutality and everything. Pretty sure that group is, to a person, reliable Trump/GOP voters.
As they say, "the cruelty is the point." Too many people are attracted to this kind of performative cruelty, and not enough are adequately revolted by it. I often wonder whether this streak is inherent in human behavior or if we can ever get past it.
posted by jzb at 7:12 AM on March 26, 2023 [22 favorites]
Before Trump's run for president, maybe 2012 or 2013, I was invited to a school friend's house to watch wrestling with some of the other guys I knew in middle school and junior high, mostly. Wrestling wasn't my jam, but I figured it'd be fun and a good chance to catch up and have snacks.
My key memory of wrestling in the 80s was the over-the-top silliness.
What struck me, though, was summed up in a quote from this article: "cruelty was very popular."
One of the wrestlers drove his car out onto the set or whatever, made a big deal out of the importance of the car. After he was defeated in the match, the winner made a show of defacing the car.
Car culture was a huge thing in my town when I was growing up. Like, enormous. People were identified by the cars they drove. "Hey, do you know so-and-so?" "Don't think so?" "Sure you do, he drives the 76 Corvette."
So it kind of floored me that the culmination of the match wasn't the win, it was defacing the car. It wasn't enough to win, there had to be humiliation and gloating.
That turned me off, a lot. But everybody else was into it. I ended up disconnecting from that group of friends not long after when it really became clear where they stood on politics after Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson. I found myself constantly on the other side of discussions and arguments about police brutality and everything. Pretty sure that group is, to a person, reliable Trump/GOP voters.
As they say, "the cruelty is the point." Too many people are attracted to this kind of performative cruelty, and not enough are adequately revolted by it. I often wonder whether this streak is inherent in human behavior or if we can ever get past it.
posted by jzb at 7:12 AM on March 26, 2023 [22 favorites]
I don't know if Politico is going to be a reliable source when it comes to charting how American politics has become all show and no substance
Equating Republican and particularly Trumpian politics as kayfabe isn't something particularly linked to this article (Riesman wrote an op-ed in the NYT in February for instance). A quick search shows it has been a theme, at least since 2015 and Trump:
Equating Republican and particularly Trumpian politics as kayfabe isn't something particularly linked to this article (Riesman wrote an op-ed in the NYT in February for instance). A quick search shows it has been a theme, at least since 2015 and Trump:
2015: CNN - For Trump, it’s a wrestling matchposted by Ashwagandha at 7:23 AM on March 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
2016: Wrestling with the Real: Politics, Journalism, History in "Frost/Nixon", and the Complex Realism of Kayfabe
2017: Trump Breaks Kayfabe
2019: Political Kayfabe
2020: Politics By Kayfabe: Professional Wrestling And The Creation Of Public Opinion
2020: Professional Wrestling Politics and Populism
2020: The Populist Style and Public Diplomacy: Kayfabe as Performative Agonism in Trump’s Twitter Posts
2020: Kayfabe, Smartdom and Marking Out: Can Pro-Wrestling Help Us Understand Donald Trump?
2020: Shannon Bow O'Brien's book, Donald Trump and the Kayfabe Presidency
2023: Smith, Trudeau and political 'kayfabe' in a choreographed feud over ‘just transition’
In a country whose most popular game show was "can you spell common words and phrases" and whose hardest trivia show was "are you smarter than a 5th grader",
well good thing they have nukes. /s
Did you really comment in this thread just to say "hurf durf Americans are dumb"? This may be the lowest-value comment I've seen in almost 20 years of reading here. So I guess that's something. Thanks for letting us know your opinion while insulting a lot of people and adding nothing to the conversation? Or something?
posted by LooseFilter at 7:41 AM on March 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
well good thing they have nukes. /s
Did you really comment in this thread just to say "hurf durf Americans are dumb"? This may be the lowest-value comment I've seen in almost 20 years of reading here. So I guess that's something. Thanks for letting us know your opinion while insulting a lot of people and adding nothing to the conversation? Or something?
posted by LooseFilter at 7:41 AM on March 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
Wondering if neokayfabe is what was dubbed hyper-reality, something I read about here on the blue in 2016 or so?
Hyperreality is a much more broad concept that articulates what occurs when a person's conscious attention is placed toward mediated reality far more often day-to-day, than toward empirical reality; in other words, when a person's mind is experiencing the world through media (screens) more than through their own bodies, their awareness of what is actually real becomes very distorted and manipulable. At large scale (society), this becomes quite dangerous.
It describes a state of conscious awareness that is beyond the empirical, with one's awareness and knowledge of the world extended by mediation of all kinds (TVs, newspapers, internet, etc.) but to the degree that what one's mind receives through media is taken as more real than the empirical, objective, actual reality around them. Thus, FOX News easily convinces viewers to ignore their lying eyes and believe what they are told/shown rather than what they see with their own eyes and reason with their own minds.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:53 AM on March 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Hyperreality is a much more broad concept that articulates what occurs when a person's conscious attention is placed toward mediated reality far more often day-to-day, than toward empirical reality; in other words, when a person's mind is experiencing the world through media (screens) more than through their own bodies, their awareness of what is actually real becomes very distorted and manipulable. At large scale (society), this becomes quite dangerous.
It describes a state of conscious awareness that is beyond the empirical, with one's awareness and knowledge of the world extended by mediation of all kinds (TVs, newspapers, internet, etc.) but to the degree that what one's mind receives through media is taken as more real than the empirical, objective, actual reality around them. Thus, FOX News easily convinces viewers to ignore their lying eyes and believe what they are told/shown rather than what they see with their own eyes and reason with their own minds.
Hyperreality is a concept in post-structuralism that refers to the process of the evolution of notions of reality, leading to a cultural state of confusion between signs and symbols invented to stand in for reality, and direct perceptions of consensus reality. Hyperreality is seen as a condition in which, because of the compression of perceptions of reality in culture and media, what is generally regarded as real and what is understood as fiction are seamlessly blended together in experiences so that there is no longer any clear distinction between where one ends and the other begins.In one sense, it's an extreme state of propaganda; but the term describes something more fundamental, as the medium is the message, so hyperreality transcends mere propaganda, it is more essential in how it makes a human mind generally vulnerable to manipulation and persuasion. The media theorists who first articulated this nascent, new state of human consciousness were quite concerned about it.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:53 AM on March 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
I joked that if we're gonna kayfabe this shit, someone needs to go full Trump style fash, then when gets elected implements FULL COMMUNISM, and locksup all the fash. ULTIMATE HEEL TURN!
posted by symbioid at 8:20 AM on March 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by symbioid at 8:20 AM on March 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't get how it's just the GOP. I mean, pro wrestling is trashy and if you're reading the article you think that Republicans are trashy too, but if you're just considering wrestling as "lots of drama around events that are predetermined in nature" then how is it not the whole system?
posted by kingdead at 10:31 AM on March 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 10:31 AM on March 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is a key difference between gladiators and pro-wrestlers, which sidesteps any resemblance to athleticism or combat and goes straight for the emotional fantasy of the defeated. It's the feigned injury, so someone can bounce back from certain defeat and claim hero status for doing so. Pure drama in an evolutionary way, but I can envision most male chimps becoming perplexed at pro-wrestling, because of the fake injury theater, where the human players are connecting to an audience that is marginalized and feels sorry for itself. The difference between Trump and Desantis is that one will play victim in order to ding his opponent with a penalty, winning the game by fake losing, while one won't, as a former real athlete. The question for political risk strategists is who is to fear most as an authoritarian, and who do you wish for with the best chance of defeating?
posted by Brian B. at 10:48 AM on March 26, 2023
posted by Brian B. at 10:48 AM on March 26, 2023
The predetermined nature of professional wrestling is not an important part of the comparison—it’s the hyper-exaggerated emotional response on display that’s at once so fantastical as to be recognizably fake even to a child, but simultaneously so satisfying to its audience that any analysis of its authenticity is not just pointless, but counter-productive.
posted by skewed at 10:52 AM on March 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by skewed at 10:52 AM on March 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I received a petition by email this week about telling Fox News to cancel Tucker's program and thought "there's no way they'd perceive that as anything besides heat."
posted by Selena777 at 12:15 PM on March 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 12:15 PM on March 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Fascinating interview.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 12:25 PM on March 26, 2023
posted by pelvicsorcery at 12:25 PM on March 26, 2023
I'll rephrase. Compared to developed countries, americans are more violent, more religious, and more self-professed proud of being ignorant. Like any generalization, it is inaccruate for many people. Among americans, this pride in ignorance, violence and simple narratives is more frequent and intense among supporters of the hard right party than of the center party.
When commenters express surprise that prowrestling is popular, or that neokayfabe is effective, its relevant context to bring up this american culture of violence, simple narratives etc.
These features exist in every country i know of, they are emphasized in the US.
/Hurf durf
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 1:23 PM on March 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
When commenters express surprise that prowrestling is popular, or that neokayfabe is effective, its relevant context to bring up this american culture of violence, simple narratives etc.
These features exist in every country i know of, they are emphasized in the US.
/Hurf durf
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 1:23 PM on March 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
This seems a good place to put a link to Adam Curtis' HyperNormalisation [SLYT]. The idea that acclimating the populace to this kind of mass BS, intentional or not, has been going on for years. I would argue that McMahon's sports entertainment is just one of many threads. One can look at Marshall McLuhan's work as precursor analyses to these problems. But the argument I find applies the best is derived from Eric A. Havelock's Preface to Plato. Prof. Havelock argued that the Socrates' rant against poets in The Republic due to the idea that the recitation of the archaic epic poetry of Homer was the primary educational framework of the populace. This was not an intentional schooling, but it was the process that perpetuated the old ways and seemed to be the greatest impediment to adopting philosophical systems. In this day and age epic poetry has been wholly supplanted by more immersive, and persistent, entertainments like pro wrestling. The spectacle as part of an encircling education, to which should be added things like the presumption of Good vs. Evil in all opposing contests, crime around every corner, and a BFG can solve most serious problems. Not everyone has this education, but it is an easy one to get.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 6:06 PM on March 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ignorantsavage at 6:06 PM on March 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Prof. Havelock argued that the Socrates' rant against poets in The Republic due to the idea that the recitation of the archaic epic poetry of Homer was the primary educational framework of the populace. This was not an intentional schooling, but it was the process that perpetuated the old ways and seemed to be the greatest impediment to adopting philosophical systems. In this day and age epic poetry has been wholly supplanted by more immersive, and persistent, entertainments like pro wrestling.
Funny thing: When I read the Iliad, it very much reminded me of pro wrestling. All the strutting and bombastic speechifying mixed in with violent physical action carried out by over-the-top characters, plus the occasional direct intervention byVince and Stephanie McMahon the gods. I wouldn't have been surprised by Achilles topping off the action with a pile driver.
posted by clawsoon at 6:23 PM on March 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
Funny thing: When I read the Iliad, it very much reminded me of pro wrestling. All the strutting and bombastic speechifying mixed in with violent physical action carried out by over-the-top characters, plus the occasional direct intervention by
posted by clawsoon at 6:23 PM on March 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
Less bread these days, more circuses.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:29 AM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:29 AM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I commented in one of the Monday free posts about the move to allow betting on WWE matches, where the winner, by definition, is already decided. It's an indication of both the popularity of pro wrestling and the gullibility of its fans. It's not hard to see why politicians have tapped into that, it solves so many problems for them.
posted by tommasz at 7:27 AM on March 27, 2023
posted by tommasz at 7:27 AM on March 27, 2023
the overarching message that violence is the solution to all issue
This is a foolish idea.
posted by Ipsifendus at 8:16 AM on March 27, 2023
This is a foolish idea.
posted by Ipsifendus at 8:16 AM on March 27, 2023
It doesn’t believe in consistency. It doesn’t believe in all the truth or all the lie. It believes in total chaos. And that’s what we have under neokayfabe.
That match was kind of the last gasp of that era. And you can argue it was because it sort of broke the system. Fans had to pick a side. You can’t just cheer for both guys. You have to cheer for one.
I don't honestly feel like either of these statements actually applies to pro wrestling in the year of our lord 2023. Wrestling nowadays is all the lie, especially in the age of social media--someone's social media presence doesn't turn heel or face, it's just them with their dogs or whatever, regardless of what's happening in the ring. And fans do NOT have to pick a side, else I wouldn't have been to dozens upon dozens of live shows with crowds screaming "BOTH THESE GUYS! BOTH THESE GUYS!" or "FIGHT FOREVER".
It isn't like I disagree that the right wing has learned to deploy fandom very effectively, and that certain time periods/frameworks of pro wrestling graft onto it very tidily or anything. I just think maybe it's unfair to call pro wrestling fans gullible idiots when you clearly haven't watched the product in an entire generation.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:36 AM on March 27, 2023
That match was kind of the last gasp of that era. And you can argue it was because it sort of broke the system. Fans had to pick a side. You can’t just cheer for both guys. You have to cheer for one.
I don't honestly feel like either of these statements actually applies to pro wrestling in the year of our lord 2023. Wrestling nowadays is all the lie, especially in the age of social media--someone's social media presence doesn't turn heel or face, it's just them with their dogs or whatever, regardless of what's happening in the ring. And fans do NOT have to pick a side, else I wouldn't have been to dozens upon dozens of live shows with crowds screaming "BOTH THESE GUYS! BOTH THESE GUYS!" or "FIGHT FOREVER".
It isn't like I disagree that the right wing has learned to deploy fandom very effectively, and that certain time periods/frameworks of pro wrestling graft onto it very tidily or anything. I just think maybe it's unfair to call pro wrestling fans gullible idiots when you clearly haven't watched the product in an entire generation.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:36 AM on March 27, 2023
I commented in one of the Monday free posts about the move to allow betting on WWE matches, where the winner, by definition, is already decided. It's an indication of both the popularity of pro wrestling and the gullibility of its fans.
People bet on the Oscars, too, are they also super gullible? Or is it cool to bet on predetermined outcomes as long as they're coded as culturally middle-to-upper class?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:39 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
People bet on the Oscars, too, are they also super gullible? Or is it cool to bet on predetermined outcomes as long as they're coded as culturally middle-to-upper class?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:39 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
It doesn’t believe in consistency. It doesn’t believe in all the truth or all the lie. It believes in total chaos. And that’s what we have under neokayfabe.
That match was kind of the last gasp of that era. And you can argue it was because it sort of broke the system. Fans had to pick a side. You can’t just cheer for both guys. You have to cheer for one.
I don't honestly feel like either of these statements actually applies to pro wrestling in the year of our lord 2023.
I think Riesman was saying exactly that -- the old face-heel dynamic has been irreparably damaged, as evidenced by that event of 33 years ago. (I'll come back to the first one in a minute.)
It doesn't mean that there aren't faces and heels anymore, just that there's another element to things. Roman Reigns is still The Heel because he cheats to win. Sami Zayn became The Face because he refused to cheat. Even in this post-face-heel-dynamic world, it still just works to have Good Guy vs. Bad Guy on some very fundamental levels. Sure, you can still have Kenny Omega and El Hijo Del Vikingo going at it for no reason other than "You are a very good wrestler, but I am better, and I wish to prove it.", but the main event of a pay-per-view is almost always going to be "I hate you for this reason, and I wish to defeat you."
It doesn’t believe in consistency. It doesn’t believe in all the truth or all the lie. It believes in total chaos. And that’s what we have under neokayfabe.
This is absolutely the case, because what the modern wrestling audience is desperate for is twofold: First is that the good guys (which isn't quite the same as the old face-heel dynamic) win, but also that we be surprised. We are so addicted to it that the entire Cody Rhodes arc over the last year has been known ahead of time and we're still acting like the WM debut or the Rumble appearance were surprises, to the point that people are already tired of how predictable his WM win is going to be, to the point that a ton of fans are saying that the point of it this far is to fool us into thinking Roman's going to win because that would be a surprise, and therefore Cody's win will actually be a surprise. The wheels-within-wheels "I know that you know that I know that you know, but do you know that I know that you know that I know that you know..." is flying thick and fast, and that's chaos. Pure, total, beautiful chaos.
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
That match was kind of the last gasp of that era. And you can argue it was because it sort of broke the system. Fans had to pick a side. You can’t just cheer for both guys. You have to cheer for one.
I don't honestly feel like either of these statements actually applies to pro wrestling in the year of our lord 2023.
I think Riesman was saying exactly that -- the old face-heel dynamic has been irreparably damaged, as evidenced by that event of 33 years ago. (I'll come back to the first one in a minute.)
It doesn't mean that there aren't faces and heels anymore, just that there's another element to things. Roman Reigns is still The Heel because he cheats to win. Sami Zayn became The Face because he refused to cheat. Even in this post-face-heel-dynamic world, it still just works to have Good Guy vs. Bad Guy on some very fundamental levels. Sure, you can still have Kenny Omega and El Hijo Del Vikingo going at it for no reason other than "You are a very good wrestler, but I am better, and I wish to prove it.", but the main event of a pay-per-view is almost always going to be "I hate you for this reason, and I wish to defeat you."
It doesn’t believe in consistency. It doesn’t believe in all the truth or all the lie. It believes in total chaos. And that’s what we have under neokayfabe.
This is absolutely the case, because what the modern wrestling audience is desperate for is twofold: First is that the good guys (which isn't quite the same as the old face-heel dynamic) win, but also that we be surprised. We are so addicted to it that the entire Cody Rhodes arc over the last year has been known ahead of time and we're still acting like the WM debut or the Rumble appearance were surprises, to the point that people are already tired of how predictable his WM win is going to be, to the point that a ton of fans are saying that the point of it this far is to fool us into thinking Roman's going to win because that would be a surprise, and therefore Cody's win will actually be a surprise. The wheels-within-wheels "I know that you know that I know that you know, but do you know that I know that you know that I know that you know..." is flying thick and fast, and that's chaos. Pure, total, beautiful chaos.
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
(it is possible that I just watch wrestling wrong because I find the Cody thing to be the dullest shit ever committed to media, with no conceivable outcome that would surprise me, and often have to be reminded that many people consider him a face, and his character isn't actually "loathsome dipshit".)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:37 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:37 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Man, I used to despair that something was broken in me that I haven't given a shit about Cody at any step in this process, but I think we're not in as small a minority as we think, and if Roman does win, then it won't be like when Hunter beat Booker and everyone just goes "um...".
posted by Etrigan at 1:17 PM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 1:17 PM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
People bet on the Oscars, too, are they also super gullible?
Betting on the Oscars is like betting on an election. Betting on wrestling is more like betting on how many people John Wick is gonna kill in the next movie.
posted by straight at 1:44 PM on March 27, 2023
Betting on the Oscars is like betting on an election. Betting on wrestling is more like betting on how many people John Wick is gonna kill in the next movie.
posted by straight at 1:44 PM on March 27, 2023
Betting on the Oscars is like betting on an election. Betting on wrestling is more like betting on how many people John Wick is gonna kill in the next movie.
Bovada will take that action.
posted by Etrigan at 2:15 PM on March 27, 2023
Bovada will take that action.
posted by Etrigan at 2:15 PM on March 27, 2023
Finally read the interview. I appreciate the clarity of this (emphases added):
Riesman: We learned [in politics] that the most important thing is entertaining people — basically the most important thing is pushing people’s buttons. And also learning that you can be a heel and be successful — you can be somebody who is hated and you can profit off that hatred.posted by spamandkimchi at 11:52 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Kruse: Attention above all else, button-pushing over policy-making …
Riesman: And success in being hated. That’s such a key part of the Trump phenomenon. People think that by hating him and tweeting about how bad he is they’re somehow stabbing against him. But that’s the same way that people thought they were making a point of taking down Vince McMahon by buying T-shirts that say “Stone Cold” because “Stone Cold” Steve Austin was Vince’s rival in a storyline. But Vince McMahon owns it. He makes all the money off the T-shirt. That’s what happens with Trump. And not just Trump. George Santos. Any number of politicians. It’s how you succeed now.
Kruse: It pays to be the heel just as much or maybe even more than it pays to be “the face.”
Riesman: Oh, I would say much more. Being the face doesn’t pay because you’re always going to have another side that reflexively hates you. You’re not going to win over the other side. Whereas if you’re a heel, you have one side loving you, and the other side you’re profiting off their hatred. It’s the only way to actually make it now.
And this interview quote provides clarity on the fondness for "liberal tears":
And the smartest Republican politicians right now, or at least the most successful ones, are the ones who have figured out how to be loved for being hated. And then you’re their hero. This is part of the confusion and chaos of neokayfabe. You can be a heel to your foe and still get pops — cheers from the crowd. In the dark new world of wrestling of the mid- to late ’90s, irreverence and crassness and cruelty was very popular, as long as it was pointed at people you thought were lame or bad or whatever, you know?posted by spamandkimchi at 11:55 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Abraham Josephine Riesman who wrote Ringmaster, Vince McMahon and the Unmaking of America covers some of the complexities of being a wrestling fan:
A few days before I turned in the completed draft of my book, I told the world via Twitter that I’m not a man. I’m choosing to live as a trans woman. I go by “she” now. This is the conclusion I might have come to all those years ago if my bullies hadn’t terrorized me out of it. Wrestling showed me how to be a man. But it also gave me a second message, one that had finally — finally — reached me. Wrestling taught me to be cis at 13, and then it taught me to be trans at 36.posted by zenon at 8:53 AM on March 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
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holy shit that's a great word
posted by JoeZydeco at 3:15 PM on March 25, 2023 [8 favorites]