[don't share with candidates]
April 5, 2023 12:53 PM Subscribe
Company asking for only white candidates in job application sparks outrage. "A note in bold in the job offer said: "Only Born US Citizens [White] who are local within 60 miles from Dallas, TX [Don't share with candidates]. The company has apologized and said the ad was posted by a new hire at the company."
Arthur Grand Technologies, a company founded in 2012 and focused on developing or modifying computer software and packaging, advertised a job on Tuesday for a business analyst in its Salesforce and insurance claims team in Dallas, Texas, on the hiring platform Indeed.
....
The business clients of the role were listed as HTC Global and Berkshire Hathaway. Newsweek has reached out to both companies via email.
Links to now-deleted archived job posting, and the largest of several Reddit threads on the topic.
Arthur Grand Technologies, a company founded in 2012 and focused on developing or modifying computer software and packaging, advertised a job on Tuesday for a business analyst in its Salesforce and insurance claims team in Dallas, Texas, on the hiring platform Indeed.
....
The business clients of the role were listed as HTC Global and Berkshire Hathaway. Newsweek has reached out to both companies via email.
Links to now-deleted archived job posting, and the largest of several Reddit threads on the topic.
The Newsweek article now has a new excuse listed
posted by advicepig at 1:24 PM on April 5, 2023 [21 favorites]
In a later statement on LinkedIn, Arthur Grand Technologies said: "This job posting was neither authorized nor posted by Arthur Grand or its employees. A former employee took an existing posting and added discriminatory language, then reposted it through his own account. The moment this was brought to our attention, we worked with the job portal to remove this offensive job posting. Necessary legal action has been initiated against the job poster."That's not fishy at all...
posted by advicepig at 1:24 PM on April 5, 2023 [21 favorites]
saddest bojack horseman sign gag ever.
posted by condour75 at 1:27 PM on April 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by condour75 at 1:27 PM on April 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
Wowwwwwwwwww. But also, Texas, so not really shocking, unfortunately.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:41 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:41 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hang on....
The company has apologized and said the ad was posted by a new hire at the company.
vs.
A former employee took an existing posting and added discriminatory language, then reposted it through his own account.
So....which was it? A new hire or a former employee?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:43 PM on April 5, 2023 [34 favorites]
The company has apologized and said the ad was posted by a new hire at the company.
vs.
A former employee took an existing posting and added discriminatory language, then reposted it through his own account.
So....which was it? A new hire or a former employee?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:43 PM on April 5, 2023 [34 favorites]
Outrage over white-only job ad drives tech firm to delete website
posted by 1970s Antihero at 1:44 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 1:44 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
A new hire or a former employee?
I'm guessing it was both. A new hire that didn't last too long. Although it's possible that they are lying about either of those things.
posted by grouse at 1:46 PM on April 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm guessing it was both. A new hire that didn't last too long. Although it's possible that they are lying about either of those things.
posted by grouse at 1:46 PM on April 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
So....which was it? A new hire or a former employee?
A new hire who is now a former employee, and a likely future guest on the right wing grift circuit.
posted by xigxag at 1:46 PM on April 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
A new hire who is now a former employee, and a likely future guest on the right wing grift circuit.
posted by xigxag at 1:46 PM on April 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
On the off chance that the company is innocent - which seems questionable at this point - this seems like the perfect modern update to the angry ex-employee's classic "rm -rf /".
posted by clawsoon at 1:48 PM on April 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:48 PM on April 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would like to imagine them out of business already, but I suppose there’s actually a chance that this notoriety will bring them new racist clients.
posted by snofoam at 1:49 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snofoam at 1:49 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not just whites-only, but conflating white people with "Born US Citizens."
posted by kirkaracha at 1:49 PM on April 5, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:49 PM on April 5, 2023 [24 favorites]
It's a weird state of affairs that hiring discrimination among tech companies is well documented and expected by nonwhite workers, but as soon as one is actually caught in the act doing so explicitly, it's treated as an exception beyond that pale. Pinning the blame on a single junior recruiter is blatant bull. Their job is to find the kinds of people they're told to find.
posted by jy4m at 1:56 PM on April 5, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 1:56 PM on April 5, 2023 [21 favorites]
Because there's always gotta be a scapegoat. Fifty bucks says the parenthetical notes were from at least middle management, if not the tip top.
posted by zardoz at 1:57 PM on April 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 1:57 PM on April 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
On the off chance that the company is innocent - which seems questionable at this point
If they're innocent, they've done an utterly abysmal job in clearly distancing themselves from the supposed sabotage. I don't know who they got to write their statements, but something this egregious calls for immediate, loud, and absolute transparency, and that statement is typical lazy-ass corporate-speak, blame-shifting with moving goalposts even though they said they conducted an investigation (great detective work, folks), and mealy mouth "will never happen again" platitudes.
If they are innocent, the executive leadership was tested today, and their leadership has failed to act effectively to contain the damage.
posted by tclark at 2:00 PM on April 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
If they're innocent, they've done an utterly abysmal job in clearly distancing themselves from the supposed sabotage. I don't know who they got to write their statements, but something this egregious calls for immediate, loud, and absolute transparency, and that statement is typical lazy-ass corporate-speak, blame-shifting with moving goalposts even though they said they conducted an investigation (great detective work, folks), and mealy mouth "will never happen again" platitudes.
If they are innocent, the executive leadership was tested today, and their leadership has failed to act effectively to contain the damage.
posted by tclark at 2:00 PM on April 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
Pinning the blame on a single junior recruiter is blatant bull. Their job is to find the kinds of people they're told to find.
Exactly. Those are the criteria, the criteria come from the client. Unfortunately, the client being the 800-lb gorilla it is, the client is unlikely to ever be asked to answer for this.
posted by coffeeand at 2:18 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Exactly. Those are the criteria, the criteria come from the client. Unfortunately, the client being the 800-lb gorilla it is, the client is unlikely to ever be asked to answer for this.
posted by coffeeand at 2:18 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe they trained an LLM on a bunch of their internal job descriptions and this is what it came up with...
posted by mistersix at 2:31 PM on April 5, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by mistersix at 2:31 PM on April 5, 2023 [25 favorites]
The reason I tend to think that the "recently fired person" story might be true is that, while I'm sure Berkshire Hathaway (who appears to be the client here) is far from pure in heart and mind, it has no need to discriminate in such crude fashion.
posted by praemunire at 2:35 PM on April 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 2:35 PM on April 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Hot take: the outrage on this particular case would be best directed into fighting for big increases in funding and enforcement power for the EEOC & NLRB. It's perfectly possible that one asshole did this on purpose to torpedo the company, we'll know soon I imagine, but even if the company decision makers did this on purpose, racial discriminations on the job is extremely widespread, and does not usually take the form of job postings that say "whites only". I don't care about this particular company - fuck 'em, they likely deserve their fate, but a real win is a bigger solutions than cancelling one company website.
posted by latkes at 2:39 PM on April 5, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by latkes at 2:39 PM on April 5, 2023 [25 favorites]
Dallas resident here and while I know nothing about the company, that there are the sort of people here who would discriminate that way doesn't even surprise me. You can be in the bluest place in the USA these days and find those assholes, and there are plenty more than you'd find in a blue state here.
Also when I read that the company is a "minority-owned business" I remember that that could mean it's owned by a white woman. Apparently that's where most of the money in minority-owned business contracting has traditionally gone: to companies owned by white women.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 2:50 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also when I read that the company is a "minority-owned business" I remember that that could mean it's owned by a white woman. Apparently that's where most of the money in minority-owned business contracting has traditionally gone: to companies owned by white women.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 2:50 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
companies owned by white women
I spent 5 years working for a small company which was owned by a married couple - your standard "Mom 'n Pop" kind of company - but all the paperwork showed the business as being owned by the woman in the couple, so they could get local city contracts which were required to prefer "woman or minority owned businesses". (late '90s, central Illinois.)
posted by Daily Alice at 3:09 PM on April 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
I spent 5 years working for a small company which was owned by a married couple - your standard "Mom 'n Pop" kind of company - but all the paperwork showed the business as being owned by the woman in the couple, so they could get local city contracts which were required to prefer "woman or minority owned businesses". (late '90s, central Illinois.)
posted by Daily Alice at 3:09 PM on April 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
Their slogan is "simplifying IT," and they walk the walk by having their domain name point to an apparently unprotected WordPress installation page.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:30 PM on April 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 3:30 PM on April 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
> Their slogan is "simplifying IT," and they walk the walk by having their domain name point to an apparently unprotected WordPress installation page.
Wait what? Oh my. That... I'd expect that to change, quickly.
posted by Pronoiac at 3:33 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wait what? Oh my. That... I'd expect that to change, quickly.
posted by Pronoiac at 3:33 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
[Don't share with candidates] is the dead giveaway here.
The company sent a description to the recruiter, including a note that they weren't supposed to post, and the recruiter just cut-and-pasted it without thinking.
Whether that original language came from Arthur Grand or Berkshire is anyone's guess.
But a bitter "ex-employee" wouldn't have added [Don't share with candidates].
My guess is the "new hire" or "ex employee" just made the mistake of not deleting the existing racism when they posted.
posted by mmoncur at 3:34 PM on April 5, 2023 [29 favorites]
The company sent a description to the recruiter, including a note that they weren't supposed to post, and the recruiter just cut-and-pasted it without thinking.
Whether that original language came from Arthur Grand or Berkshire is anyone's guess.
But a bitter "ex-employee" wouldn't have added [Don't share with candidates].
My guess is the "new hire" or "ex employee" just made the mistake of not deleting the existing racism when they posted.
posted by mmoncur at 3:34 PM on April 5, 2023 [29 favorites]
Their web site is back up. Note the racist professional whites only background.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:37 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 3:37 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you keep reading the Reddit thread, it said most of the employees are from India, which gives another HMMMMMMMMMMM to the whole thing, right there.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:37 PM on April 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:37 PM on April 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
Why take down their website other than to scrub any racist content? Oh, maybe to disable their contact pages. And the sitemap.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:43 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 3:43 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
The reason I tend to think that the "recently fired person" story might be true is that, while I'm sure Berkshire Hathaway (who appears to be the client here) is far from pure in heart and mind, it has no need to discriminate in such crude fashion.
I'm inclined to agree. Even the most ham-fisted leadership would know not to publish crap like this. But, even if the claim that this was posted by a 'recently fired person' after they were fired is true, a tech company that doesn't even know enough to cut off access to all systems before firing someone doesn't seem like a good place to trust your company data to. I'm also dubious about the security awareness of a company that posts links to login pages for its accounting and HR systems on its public Web site.
Their LinkedIn page doesn't look like a company that discriminates against non-whites, but that may be because most of their employees are in India. It could be that they only want white people in their US offices, though. A suspicious person may conclude they are happy to have non-whites working for them as long as they can pay them a fraction of what they pay those in their US offices ...
posted by dg at 3:47 PM on April 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm inclined to agree. Even the most ham-fisted leadership would know not to publish crap like this. But, even if the claim that this was posted by a 'recently fired person' after they were fired is true, a tech company that doesn't even know enough to cut off access to all systems before firing someone doesn't seem like a good place to trust your company data to. I'm also dubious about the security awareness of a company that posts links to login pages for its accounting and HR systems on its public Web site.
Their LinkedIn page doesn't look like a company that discriminates against non-whites, but that may be because most of their employees are in India. It could be that they only want white people in their US offices, though. A suspicious person may conclude they are happy to have non-whites working for them as long as they can pay them a fraction of what they pay those in their US offices ...
posted by dg at 3:47 PM on April 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
what person other than a white person would want/consider working for this company??
posted by robbyrobs at 3:59 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by robbyrobs at 3:59 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Looking at their website (including the pre-scrub version on archive.org), I'd have probably advised them to keep it down.
posted by signal at 4:12 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:12 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
A+ choice of stock photo by Newsweek
posted by staggernation at 4:28 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by staggernation at 4:28 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you keep reading the Reddit thread, it said most of the employees are from India, which gives another HMMMMMMMMMMM to the whole thing, right there.
Well, it's a services group. They hire contractors as cheaply as possible for jobs where they mostly need a warm body with some skill (but not a lot) but also English speaking, to interface with the other company (the client). India produces a lot of these employees.
Arthur Grand itself is not a tech company like Google or Apple. Their role here is to provide labor to clients at low prices. They don't actually produce anything significant themselves.
posted by meowzilla at 4:31 PM on April 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well, it's a services group. They hire contractors as cheaply as possible for jobs where they mostly need a warm body with some skill (but not a lot) but also English speaking, to interface with the other company (the client). India produces a lot of these employees.
Arthur Grand itself is not a tech company like Google or Apple. Their role here is to provide labor to clients at low prices. They don't actually produce anything significant themselves.
posted by meowzilla at 4:31 PM on April 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
But a bitter "ex-employee" wouldn't have added [Don't share with candidates].
If they knew what they were doing to fuck with the company, they would.
I would not be shocked beyond measure either way, but big companies are so much more sophisticated in their forms of discrimination these days.
posted by praemunire at 4:53 PM on April 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
If they knew what they were doing to fuck with the company, they would.
I would not be shocked beyond measure either way, but big companies are so much more sophisticated in their forms of discrimination these days.
posted by praemunire at 4:53 PM on April 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Dallas Morning News article (ungated) which takes care to emphasize that the company posting the job is in VIRGINIA. NOT DALLAS.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:05 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:05 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
what person other than a white person would want/consider working for this company??
LinkedIn may have an answer. Many folks working in the US on visa don't have enough employer mobility. Depressing as it is, the better question might be why a US born citizen with the desired skills would want to work for a company Wikipedia describes as:
75 dollars an hour sounds pretty good but as a 1099 contract, you need to use that to buy health insurance and pay self-employment tax, etc. And then when the contract is over you get to spend more unemployed time looking for new work.
Arthur Grand itself is not a tech company like Google or Apple.
It's even looser than that: Arthur Grande is a recruiter firm, HTC Global is the body shop, and it seems like Berkshire Hathaway was the actual client. It's pretty easy to concoct a story here based on the incentives, especially the part about "be a liaison between the business partners and the internal and external implementation Partners."
posted by pwnguin at 5:52 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
LinkedIn may have an answer. Many folks working in the US on visa don't have enough employer mobility. Depressing as it is, the better question might be why a US born citizen with the desired skills would want to work for a company Wikipedia describes as:
privately owned information technology and business process outsourcing services company and currently has centers in Chennai, Hyderabad and Bengaluru in India.
75 dollars an hour sounds pretty good but as a 1099 contract, you need to use that to buy health insurance and pay self-employment tax, etc. And then when the contract is over you get to spend more unemployed time looking for new work.
Arthur Grand itself is not a tech company like Google or Apple.
It's even looser than that: Arthur Grande is a recruiter firm, HTC Global is the body shop, and it seems like Berkshire Hathaway was the actual client. It's pretty easy to concoct a story here based on the incentives, especially the part about "be a liaison between the business partners and the internal and external implementation Partners."
posted by pwnguin at 5:52 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do not see much 'diversity' where there are zero over 40's and no darker skin tones and no disabilities.... perhaps we can get a true breakdown of their 'diverse' nature by listing the age/ethnicity/veteran/disabled etc profiles....
That would clear things up instead of the vague corporate platitudes and blames shifting. Email logs and (it is an IT company) version control and audit trails...
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 6:26 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
That would clear things up instead of the vague corporate platitudes and blames shifting. Email logs and (it is an IT company) version control and audit trails...
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 6:26 PM on April 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
most of the employees are from India, which gives another HMMMMMMMMMMM to the whole thing, right there.
Different countries have very different norms around discrimination in hiring. I have no idea how this shakes out with people from India, however I have seen a lot of job ads in Mexico and many of them would fuel discrimination lawsuits in the U.S. It is totally normal in Mexico and in many other countries to specify the age, gender and race of the ideal candidate in a job ad.
That said, we have rules and norms in the U.S. and Arthur Grande deserves no mercy.
posted by chrchr at 6:31 PM on April 5, 2023
Different countries have very different norms around discrimination in hiring. I have no idea how this shakes out with people from India, however I have seen a lot of job ads in Mexico and many of them would fuel discrimination lawsuits in the U.S. It is totally normal in Mexico and in many other countries to specify the age, gender and race of the ideal candidate in a job ad.
That said, we have rules and norms in the U.S. and Arthur Grande deserves no mercy.
posted by chrchr at 6:31 PM on April 5, 2023
I have no idea how this shakes out with people from India...
I'm out of the hiring game these days, but back when I worked somewhere that hired a lot of H1-B roles and I was part of the hiring process, we had to make an effort ensuring candidates from India didn't stick a self portrait right at the top of their resume. HR hated it because whatever system we used that hid names/locations from the initial screeners wouldn't catch the pictures.
It is totally normal in Mexico and in many other countries to specify the age, gender and race of the ideal candidate in a job ad.
It didn't happen too often, but I'd occasionally come across resumes (usually from women) with height/weight, another thing that would give our HR department brain aneurisms.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 6:49 PM on April 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm out of the hiring game these days, but back when I worked somewhere that hired a lot of H1-B roles and I was part of the hiring process, we had to make an effort ensuring candidates from India didn't stick a self portrait right at the top of their resume. HR hated it because whatever system we used that hid names/locations from the initial screeners wouldn't catch the pictures.
It is totally normal in Mexico and in many other countries to specify the age, gender and race of the ideal candidate in a job ad.
It didn't happen too often, but I'd occasionally come across resumes (usually from women) with height/weight, another thing that would give our HR department brain aneurisms.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 6:49 PM on April 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's a weird state of affairs that hiring discrimination among tech companies is well documented and expected by nonwhite workers, but as soon as one is actually caught in the act doing so explicitly, it's treated as an exception beyond that pale. Pinning the blame on a single junior recruiter is blatant bull. Their job is to find the kinds of people they're told to find.
The next time I hear an accusation of "performative wokeness", I'm gonna ask the jerkstore doing the accusing what he thinks of this story. Because this is exactly that: a company turtling up and trying to use the language of the left to keep their customers from fleeing, or the feds from pressing charges.
Really the only way this posting differed from every other job listing in tech is that someone accidentally said the quiet part out loud. Tech is lousy with this crap. Staff your engineering teams with a handful of US-based senior devs, and a whole bunch of junior-level folks in Guadalajara/Singapore/Mumbai/Belarus where salaries are 80% lower? Sure, that's just leveraging the power of globalization®. Openly discuss the salary disparity during internal hiring discussions, including openly referring to offshore workers as counting less toward team capacity because they're not American? Of course, how else will we come up with our estimates? Flatly refuse to sponsor H1B applicants (and say so in your job ads), even when the market is so tight that open reqs are going unfilled for 18+ months? 'Murica, fuck yeah! But actually put any of it in writing on an indeed.com ad? Sir. You go too far.
posted by Mayor West at 6:57 PM on April 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
The next time I hear an accusation of "performative wokeness", I'm gonna ask the jerkstore doing the accusing what he thinks of this story. Because this is exactly that: a company turtling up and trying to use the language of the left to keep their customers from fleeing, or the feds from pressing charges.
Really the only way this posting differed from every other job listing in tech is that someone accidentally said the quiet part out loud. Tech is lousy with this crap. Staff your engineering teams with a handful of US-based senior devs, and a whole bunch of junior-level folks in Guadalajara/Singapore/Mumbai/Belarus where salaries are 80% lower? Sure, that's just leveraging the power of globalization®. Openly discuss the salary disparity during internal hiring discussions, including openly referring to offshore workers as counting less toward team capacity because they're not American? Of course, how else will we come up with our estimates? Flatly refuse to sponsor H1B applicants (and say so in your job ads), even when the market is so tight that open reqs are going unfilled for 18+ months? 'Murica, fuck yeah! But actually put any of it in writing on an indeed.com ad? Sir. You go too far.
posted by Mayor West at 6:57 PM on April 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
Dallas Morning News article (ungated) which takes care to emphasize that the company posting the job is in VIRGINIA. NOT DALLAS.
Whew, glad they cleared that up! I was worried there might be racist fucks in Texas.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:16 PM on April 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
Whew, glad they cleared that up! I was worried there might be racist fucks in Texas.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:16 PM on April 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
Whew, glad they cleared that up! I was worried there might be racist fucks in Texas.
The DMN is very clear that it is the voice of exactly the right kind of business Republican: the one that gives conservative Democrats an occasional look in and thinks it's gauche to be visibly bigoted. This gets them called communists and "woke" by people who think it's honest if not downright virtuous to be visibly bigoted.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:34 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
The DMN is very clear that it is the voice of exactly the right kind of business Republican: the one that gives conservative Democrats an occasional look in and thinks it's gauche to be visibly bigoted. This gets them called communists and "woke" by people who think it's honest if not downright virtuous to be visibly bigoted.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:34 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
I choose to believe this was copy+pasted by an inexperienced new hire, who did it on purpose, heh.
posted by ryanrs at 8:39 PM on April 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 8:39 PM on April 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Openly discuss the salary disparity during internal hiring discussions, including openly referring to offshore workers as counting less toward team capacity because they're not American?
The idea that somebody would specifically be trying to hire a white face into a customer-facing middleman role for an offshore contracting agency is not remotely implausible to me, but everything you are saying here about the implicit class divide also suggests to me that, as praemunire says, nobody really needs to say the quiet part loud in hiring. It doesn’t seem impossible that an employee threw the explicit bit in to make a point and embarrass the company.
posted by atoxyl at 9:50 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
The idea that somebody would specifically be trying to hire a white face into a customer-facing middleman role for an offshore contracting agency is not remotely implausible to me, but everything you are saying here about the implicit class divide also suggests to me that, as praemunire says, nobody really needs to say the quiet part loud in hiring. It doesn’t seem impossible that an employee threw the explicit bit in to make a point and embarrass the company.
posted by atoxyl at 9:50 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's a weird state of affairs that hiring discrimination among tech companies is well documented and expected by nonwhite workers, but as soon as one is actually caught in the act doing so explicitly, it's treated as an exception beyond that pale.
Degree matters. Blatant racism is way, way worse than "everybody is white because we haven't figured out how proactive we have to be to prevent that". Both exist. They should be penalized very, very differently.
Companies - people - that want to be fair, but just don't yet see how they perpetuate unfairness -- most of those can be easily educated to do better, and there are a LOT of them. Probably they are, in fact, most of the problem.
They shouldn't be lumped in with white supremacists, because then no one will be willing to be open or visible enough for those approachable issues to be seen, and then a) nobody gets educated, and b) the really awful people who don't _care_ if you see their prejudice will be the only voices heard.
posted by amtho at 1:12 AM on April 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
Degree matters. Blatant racism is way, way worse than "everybody is white because we haven't figured out how proactive we have to be to prevent that". Both exist. They should be penalized very, very differently.
Companies - people - that want to be fair, but just don't yet see how they perpetuate unfairness -- most of those can be easily educated to do better, and there are a LOT of them. Probably they are, in fact, most of the problem.
They shouldn't be lumped in with white supremacists, because then no one will be willing to be open or visible enough for those approachable issues to be seen, and then a) nobody gets educated, and b) the really awful people who don't _care_ if you see their prejudice will be the only voices heard.
posted by amtho at 1:12 AM on April 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
What I sincerely hope, is that this is a episode of "malicious compliance" - the newly hired/junior recruiter saw and knew that the racist 'notes' about the job posting were horrible - but chose to post anyways, even if there were consequences as they personally wouldn't want to work for an agency that lets their clients discriminate so blatantly. (And then they were fired - but, if they were fired for doing their job... maybe they have a case...)
posted by rozcakj at 4:55 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rozcakj at 4:55 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I did a mental double-take on the company’s self-description as “minority-owned” until someone upthread reminded me about the “women and minorities” thing.
posted by scratch at 6:34 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by scratch at 6:34 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Companies - people - that want to be fair, but just don't yet see how they perpetuate unfairness -- most of those can be easily educated to do better, and there are a LOT of them. Probably they are, in fact, most of the problem.
They shouldn't be lumped in with white supremacists, because then no one will be willing to be open or visible enough for those approachable issues to be seen, and then a) nobody gets educated, and b) the really awful people who don't _care_ if you see their prejudice will be the only voices heard.
posted by amtho Almost 6 hours ago [7 favorites +] [!]
Why would we focus on whether people have prejudice in their hearts instead of on the impact of their actions? Someone who professes egalitarianism yet still only hires and promotes men and white people, (or from a narrow community of upper class immigrants from a high-education regions of South and East Asia), does the same material harm in the world whether they have an overtly racist ideology or they claim meritocracy.
posted by latkes at 7:27 AM on April 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
They shouldn't be lumped in with white supremacists, because then no one will be willing to be open or visible enough for those approachable issues to be seen, and then a) nobody gets educated, and b) the really awful people who don't _care_ if you see their prejudice will be the only voices heard.
posted by amtho Almost 6 hours ago [7 favorites +] [!]
Why would we focus on whether people have prejudice in their hearts instead of on the impact of their actions? Someone who professes egalitarianism yet still only hires and promotes men and white people, (or from a narrow community of upper class immigrants from a high-education regions of South and East Asia), does the same material harm in the world whether they have an overtly racist ideology or they claim meritocracy.
posted by latkes at 7:27 AM on April 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Why would we focus on whether people have prejudice in their hearts instead of on the impact of their actions?
That's actually a very good and important question.
I'm not really able to judge who has prejudice in the
First, while it may already be understood that hate demands harsher treatment than prejudice that's so far unmixed with hate, I do realize that any kind of prejudice can and often does become mixed with hate, even if it starts with a simple conception of someone as "other" (or, in the terms of my parents' faith, not a "neighbor"). So, I am not giving a pass to non-hateful prejudice, although I don't think we should treat anyone who is not behaving hatefully with unalloyed animosity.
Second, it's difficult to disentangle most prejudice from ignorance. I no more believe in fighting ignorance with force and shame than I believe in teaching children with force and shame. What, really, is the difference between a fourth grader who doesn't know better and a forty year old who doesn't know better? How can either of them be blamed for not being taught not just the ideas we care about, but the prerequisite concepts and histories that make them understandable?
There are four reasons I can think of right now to differentiate our treatment of people based on the severity of their sentiment and the degree of harm of their actions. They have to do with people trusting that their world is fair, and that they themselves won't be punished overly harshly if they do something harmful unintentionally. If people are punished overly harshly, then the system of justice breaks down a little every time their friends or family feels compelled to protect them from life-ruining punishment for a small transgression; we end up with many cases of zero punishment just because a large number of people decide they will not help bring others to justice.
This and other reasons are alluded to in Eleanor Ostrom's principles of successful commons, and I imagine in other places too.
A more concise, but less rigorous, defense can be made by pointing out that the USA has hate crime laws, and enforces them, because many people believe that motivation matters. A lot.
For one, acting on hate and behaving as though prejudice is OK makes it seem more OK to other people. By focusing on hate itself, and making it clear that this degree is definitely not OK, we foster a culture where, even if people are really upset, angry, or disgusted, there's a psychological barrier against bringing that sentiment to life. If everyone felt strong negative emotions as often as I do, and then acted on them or spoke about them in public half the time, there would ONLY be time for that in public discourse, and that would lead to more hate and anger, and pretty soon everything would fall apart.
For another, if someone does harm out of ignorance, we can have some assurance that they'll be happy, or at least fine, with changing their behavior in the future. This is very important. The resources needed to prevent the same problem in the future basically amount to education -- that's not nothing, and it's important that it's done thoroughly and well.
However, it's a lot easier, and a lot less destructive of the connection between community members, than punitive measures. Also a lot less expensive, a lot less time consuming, and requires a lot less rigor in deciding who is "guilty". Learn stuff? Happy to, even if I've been exposed to the ideas already. Take my job, publicly shame me, or levy a big fine? I think I deserve a full jury trial and every chance to prove that I didn't actually transgress.
posted by amtho at 9:24 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's actually a very good and important question.
I'm not really able to judge who has prejudice in the
First, while it may already be understood that hate demands harsher treatment than prejudice that's so far unmixed with hate, I do realize that any kind of prejudice can and often does become mixed with hate, even if it starts with a simple conception of someone as "other" (or, in the terms of my parents' faith, not a "neighbor"). So, I am not giving a pass to non-hateful prejudice, although I don't think we should treat anyone who is not behaving hatefully with unalloyed animosity.
Second, it's difficult to disentangle most prejudice from ignorance. I no more believe in fighting ignorance with force and shame than I believe in teaching children with force and shame. What, really, is the difference between a fourth grader who doesn't know better and a forty year old who doesn't know better? How can either of them be blamed for not being taught not just the ideas we care about, but the prerequisite concepts and histories that make them understandable?
There are four reasons I can think of right now to differentiate our treatment of people based on the severity of their sentiment and the degree of harm of their actions. They have to do with people trusting that their world is fair, and that they themselves won't be punished overly harshly if they do something harmful unintentionally. If people are punished overly harshly, then the system of justice breaks down a little every time their friends or family feels compelled to protect them from life-ruining punishment for a small transgression; we end up with many cases of zero punishment just because a large number of people decide they will not help bring others to justice.
This and other reasons are alluded to in Eleanor Ostrom's principles of successful commons, and I imagine in other places too.
A more concise, but less rigorous, defense can be made by pointing out that the USA has hate crime laws, and enforces them, because many people believe that motivation matters. A lot.
For one, acting on hate and behaving as though prejudice is OK makes it seem more OK to other people. By focusing on hate itself, and making it clear that this degree is definitely not OK, we foster a culture where, even if people are really upset, angry, or disgusted, there's a psychological barrier against bringing that sentiment to life. If everyone felt strong negative emotions as often as I do, and then acted on them or spoke about them in public half the time, there would ONLY be time for that in public discourse, and that would lead to more hate and anger, and pretty soon everything would fall apart.
For another, if someone does harm out of ignorance, we can have some assurance that they'll be happy, or at least fine, with changing their behavior in the future. This is very important. The resources needed to prevent the same problem in the future basically amount to education -- that's not nothing, and it's important that it's done thoroughly and well.
However, it's a lot easier, and a lot less destructive of the connection between community members, than punitive measures. Also a lot less expensive, a lot less time consuming, and requires a lot less rigor in deciding who is "guilty". Learn stuff? Happy to, even if I've been exposed to the ideas already. Take my job, publicly shame me, or levy a big fine? I think I deserve a full jury trial and every chance to prove that I didn't actually transgress.
posted by amtho at 9:24 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
it's funny knowing that the people in my tech job hiring class with equivalent experiences talk about getting recruiters in their inboxes all the time when they barely update their Linkedins and have worse performance reviews and I get maybe like one or two every couple of months and always from a non-white recruiter or one who is based in a location overseas in spite of my updates, posts, long and growing list of certs, and being 'open to work'
it's, of course, certainly not because I chose not to keep my Chinese sur and given name, and their having fully white names and profiles... right?
stuff like this is the expected, covert reality for anyone who isn't white. the outrage this one overt instance is receiving feels almost comical to me lol, like the reality we live in is a poorly written satirical dystopia that's way too hamfistedly horrible that you can't even maintain your suspension of disbelief
posted by paimapi at 10:18 AM on April 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
it's, of course, certainly not because I chose not to keep my Chinese sur and given name, and their having fully white names and profiles... right?
stuff like this is the expected, covert reality for anyone who isn't white. the outrage this one overt instance is receiving feels almost comical to me lol, like the reality we live in is a poorly written satirical dystopia that's way too hamfistedly horrible that you can't even maintain your suspension of disbelief
posted by paimapi at 10:18 AM on April 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
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posted by Nerd of the North at 1:20 PM on April 5, 2023 [111 favorites]