Have we forgotten that work is about getting paid?
April 17, 2023 8:11 PM Subscribe
Great article, thanks for sharing. The mansplaining in the newsletter comments is a highly-entertaining side-bonus.
posted by rpfields at 9:43 PM on April 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rpfields at 9:43 PM on April 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
This future was short lived
posted by tshiunghan at 10:22 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tshiunghan at 10:22 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
What I’m more concerned about, however, is that he really didn't seem to see the problem with a man trying to underpay a woman to run an organisation tasked with fixing the problems with work.My keyboard is grateful that I wasn't drinking something when I read that line.
posted by krisjohn at 1:43 AM on April 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
That’s the part where people complaining about union staff being well paid baffles me; yes, and that is why you want a union so you too can be well paid.
And now I remember that I can officially join my union, toothless as it may be.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:26 AM on April 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
And now I remember that I can officially join my union, toothless as it may be.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:26 AM on April 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
I want my union to fight for me at arbitration when admin makes bullshit decisions about my evaluations as much as I want them to fight for my pay grade, tbh. But yeah pay is important.
posted by subdee at 6:59 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 6:59 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just a few months ago, at a rather grim all-hands after a huge round of layoffs, the CEO of my company responded to a question about salaries with "not everyone responds to financial incentives, we're looking at a variety of options to encourage employees". I genuinely couldn't tell if it was bullshit or a sincere belief.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:26 AM on April 18, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:26 AM on April 18, 2023 [19 favorites]
My union literally refused to fight for me, personally. They are good at getting mass cost of living raises and that is what they do.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:27 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:27 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Star gentle uterus, that anecdote nicely echoes the linked article, illustrating the fact that a sincere belief in one's own bullshit is a huge part of the issue. "Paying" people in "exposure" or underpaying them because it's a "passion" or "calling" is cynically disingenuous at worst and hopelessly deluded at best.
posted by scratch at 7:40 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by scratch at 7:40 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think Tik Tok showed me this woman talking about this over the weekend. If not, then there are more women who have been through this exact situation. I am hoping it was the same one.
posted by asok at 7:48 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by asok at 7:48 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just a few months ago, at a rather grim all-hands after a huge round of layoffs, the CEO of my company responded to a question about salaries with "not everyone responds to financial incentives, we're looking at a variety of options to encourage employees". I genuinely couldn't tell if it was bullshit or a sincere belief.
He's talking about the employees on the upper end that are already paid pretty well - research puts it around $100k or just a bit higher. These people will take more money, but they don't necessarily want to work extra hard to earn more money, and other perks (like work from home or extra vacation, or more autonomy) are stronger motivators than just giving higher salaries.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:17 AM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
He's talking about the employees on the upper end that are already paid pretty well - research puts it around $100k or just a bit higher. These people will take more money, but they don't necessarily want to work extra hard to earn more money, and other perks (like work from home or extra vacation, or more autonomy) are stronger motivators than just giving higher salaries.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:17 AM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm really glad that salary ranges are slowly becoming a requirement for job postings.
posted by meowzilla at 9:06 AM on April 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 9:06 AM on April 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
Sure, except that companies are apparently permitted to use a range, meaning you see stuff like “pays $30K-$150K,” which is meaningless.
posted by scratch at 9:33 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by scratch at 9:33 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
except that companies are apparently permitted to use a range
Well, first of all the perfect is the enemy of the good. These laws are a good start. But even beyond that, a company using a disingenuous range is a good "AVOID!" signal.
posted by riotnrrd at 10:19 AM on April 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, first of all the perfect is the enemy of the good. These laws are a good start. But even beyond that, a company using a disingenuous range is a good "AVOID!" signal.
posted by riotnrrd at 10:19 AM on April 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm just surprised that this post didn't include the word "rockstar" even once.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:51 AM on April 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 10:51 AM on April 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
He's talking about the employees on the upper end that are already paid pretty well - research puts it around $100k or just a bit higher.
This was more or less debunked, or at least given a lot more nuance recently. TL;DR: a 2010 study indicated that happiness didn't increase with income after $75,000, then a 2020 study indicated that nuh-uh yes it does. The authors of both papers all got together and re-examined their data and re-interpreted it all to mean that there are a minority of people (about 15%) who start off particularly unhappy, get somewhat less unhappy up to a threshold of around $100k and then stop, and that skews the averages. But the remaining 85% majority of folks do get happier with more income and there's no obvious cut-off where they stop, up to the limit of income studied ($500,000).
(also I don't think the gender of that CEO was indicated by star gentle uterus's comment, fwiw)
posted by solotoro at 11:48 AM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
This was more or less debunked, or at least given a lot more nuance recently. TL;DR: a 2010 study indicated that happiness didn't increase with income after $75,000, then a 2020 study indicated that nuh-uh yes it does. The authors of both papers all got together and re-examined their data and re-interpreted it all to mean that there are a minority of people (about 15%) who start off particularly unhappy, get somewhat less unhappy up to a threshold of around $100k and then stop, and that skews the averages. But the remaining 85% majority of folks do get happier with more income and there's no obvious cut-off where they stop, up to the limit of income studied ($500,000).
(also I don't think the gender of that CEO was indicated by star gentle uterus's comment, fwiw)
posted by solotoro at 11:48 AM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
The authors of both papers all got together and re-examined their data and re-interpreted it all to mean that there are a minority of people (about 15%) who start off particularly unhappy, get somewhat less unhappy up to a threshold of around $100k and then stop, and that skews the averages. But the remaining 85% majority of folks do get happier with more income and there's no obvious cut-off where they stop, up to the limit of income studied ($500,000).
No, not the same thing. I'm talking "will you work harder/take a 2nd job/work more hours for more money?", and the answer at various rates is very often "no", as other factors kick in. Same idea as lots of people who could become millionaires or members of the 1 or 2 top percent choose against it, because they'd rather have a bass boat and a fancy car than save money.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:18 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
No, not the same thing. I'm talking "will you work harder/take a 2nd job/work more hours for more money?", and the answer at various rates is very often "no", as other factors kick in. Same idea as lots of people who could become millionaires or members of the 1 or 2 top percent choose against it, because they'd rather have a bass boat and a fancy car than save money.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:18 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Obviously those factors only kick in once people earn a certain amount of money, but somewhere pretty close to $100k people will take normal raises as they get them, but most will not actively seek higher paying employment (job hopping) work towards advancement, or take a 2nd job to earn more money. They will often take a 2nd, unpaid job (like on a volunteer board) for prestige, but wouldn't spend the same amount of time (for example) delivering pizza for more money.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:22 PM on April 18, 2023
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:22 PM on April 18, 2023
Just a few months ago, at a rather grim all-hands after a huge round of layoffs, the CEO of my company responded to a question about salaries with "not everyone responds to financial incentives, we're looking at a variety of options to encourage employees". I genuinely couldn't tell if it was bullshit or a sincere belief.
I am one of the weirdos - I think I would take more time off instead of a raise. It's not that I make that much, but I make enough for my current lifestyle and I don't have enough time -- and anything like owning a house in my current city is so far beyond our means that it's just laughable.
I keep suggesting to my boss that the organization should use additional paid vacation days as rewards. Most of us would like them - and we would just work a bit harder to get the same amount done in the shorter time.
posted by jb at 12:57 PM on April 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am one of the weirdos - I think I would take more time off instead of a raise. It's not that I make that much, but I make enough for my current lifestyle and I don't have enough time -- and anything like owning a house in my current city is so far beyond our means that it's just laughable.
I keep suggesting to my boss that the organization should use additional paid vacation days as rewards. Most of us would like them - and we would just work a bit harder to get the same amount done in the shorter time.
posted by jb at 12:57 PM on April 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
I enjoy my job, for the most part, and I like most of my coworkers, but I am only hanging out and doing that stuff because I get paid for it. Sometimes I point this out in basically those words.
Definitely agree with NoxAeternum above about any job described as a "calling." Similarly, any time people start to describe people in a given job as "heroes", it generally means they're going to try to get more work out of them for less money. Particularly jobs that tend to skew female like nursing and primary/secondary school teaching.
posted by rmd1023 at 2:21 PM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Definitely agree with NoxAeternum above about any job described as a "calling." Similarly, any time people start to describe people in a given job as "heroes", it generally means they're going to try to get more work out of them for less money. Particularly jobs that tend to skew female like nursing and primary/secondary school teaching.
posted by rmd1023 at 2:21 PM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I keep suggesting to my boss that the organization should use additional paid vacation days as rewards. Most of us would like them - and we would just work a bit harder to get the same amount done in the shorter time.
I think federal agencies that give any sort of incentive awards sometimes let you choose between time off and the cash equivalent. Makes sense.
posted by praemunire at 3:22 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think federal agencies that give any sort of incentive awards sometimes let you choose between time off and the cash equivalent. Makes sense.
posted by praemunire at 3:22 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
The idea that people stop looking for career progression once they hit $100k does not track at all with my experience or what I see around me. I won’t go deliver pizzas because my time is valued at more than I could make doing that. If I do additional work at my regular job or perform self care or relational tasks that make me happier and healthier and therefore more productive at my regular job, that has the potential to grow my career and result in more money than Uber eats. Joining a volunteer board provides valuable connections and experience. I will 100% pursue career opportunities for continued growth in responsibilities and pay.
The idea that happiness doesn’t increase after $75k was also not my lived experience, so I’m glad to see that getting a reappraisal.
One of the benefits of being a woman in a male dominated technical profession is that it pays. There’s definitely a vein of people being “passionate” about their work, but no one is expected to take less pay because SQL is their calling.
The problem is that we need people to do these “calling” jobs, and they deserve to be paid appropriately.
posted by jeoc at 8:03 PM on April 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
The idea that happiness doesn’t increase after $75k was also not my lived experience, so I’m glad to see that getting a reappraisal.
One of the benefits of being a woman in a male dominated technical profession is that it pays. There’s definitely a vein of people being “passionate” about their work, but no one is expected to take less pay because SQL is their calling.
The problem is that we need people to do these “calling” jobs, and they deserve to be paid appropriately.
posted by jeoc at 8:03 PM on April 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
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posted by NoxAeternum at 9:03 PM on April 17, 2023 [33 favorites]