Point of Personal Privilege

April 29, 2023 4:39 PM

More than an aspirational and abstract index of a Whitmanian democracy-to-come, Robert’s Rules was an especially formal response to the very real complications and specifically American violence of white supremacy, segregated democracy, and civil war. from Reading, Race, and “Robert's Rules of Order” by Kent Puckett
posted by chavenet (16 comments total)

I've probably posted this here before but back in the early 80s I was involved in a wonderful abusal of Robert's Rules - we were protesting the importing of wine into NZ from apartheid South Africa in contravention of the international boycott - under NZ law 100 share holders of a company could call a company's SGM (every 6 weeks), we bought 100 packets of shares and started calling meetings - we didn't have enough shares to pass anything but we could cause mayhem, especially at the AGM, the scripted meeting would go something like this:

1) meeting opens
2) at some point someone moves a motion, could be anything ("I move a motion of no confidence in the chairman under the 1905 aged and senility act" - there is n such thing but the chair turns purple at this point and has to step aside)
3) The deputy chair starts to hold a vote
4) someone on the floor demands a written vote
5) the chair proposes scrutineers
6) someone on the floor proposes alternate scrutineers
7) someone on the floor demands a vote
8) someone on the floor demands a written vote
9) the chair proposes scrutineers
10) someone on the floor proposes alternate scrutineers
11) someone on the floor demands a vote
...) wash rinse repeat recurse forever

eventually the chair loses their place and/or just overrules the whole thing and restores the real chair (still purple), at the AGM it essentially means they've illegally accepted the subsequent accounts and can be sued in court ...
posted by mbo at 5:51 PM on April 29, 2023 [32 favorites]

As a Parliamentarian, I use The Standard Code of Parliamentary Procedure , formerly Sturgis, for my work. Knowledge of the system is something everyone engaged in that system should work to understand. I used it for a couple of years to keep a well-intentioned but fractious body on track to complete their work, but it’s easy to use that power for evil.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:00 PM on April 29, 2023 [6 favorites]

I don't think I wrapped my head around everything in the article, but what I took away from it was that the original Robert - who served on the Union side in the Civil War despite his mother trying to convince him to fight for the Confederacy - thought that maybe if everyone had talked politely and had a chance to have their views heard the Civil War could've been avoided.

Then his Daughters-of-the-American-Revolution daughter-in-law took the thing over and showed how to use it for racism.

Was that the gist of it?
posted by clawsoon at 7:16 PM on April 29, 2023 [8 favorites]

SJMUN represent! I went to high school with the author, Kent Puckett. he was part of our little gaming/punk/MUN friend group. I should drop him a line mayhap.
posted by vrakatar at 8:01 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

Then his Daughters-of-the-American-Revolution daughter-in-law took the thing over and showed how to use it for racism.

Echoes of what Nietzsche's relatives did with his work after his death.
posted by tclark at 9:11 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

Yeah the article was quite baroque in style but I sort of took that as a metacommentary on the absurdity of the rules themselves.
posted by latkes at 9:20 PM on April 29, 2023 [4 favorites]

I knew about the weird “anglo-saxon” thing, took it to be something the original Robert had written and therefore had a poor opinion of him, but turns out it was a racist relative who wrote it, while he was the son of the first president of Morehouse and a combatant who fought for the Union army despite his mom’s insistence otherwise. Racists taint everything they touch.
posted by Kattullus at 11:49 PM on April 29, 2023 [10 favorites]

I wish some professor had introduced the author to The Preacher's Maxim. I've tried to read it several times and still am not sure what his thesis is.

Robert “convened the [DAR] Board of Management, persuaded them … that no exception could be made for Anderson as far as the ‘white artists only’ clause was concerned, and won a victory of 39 to 1.”

I'm not sure why 39 racists (out of 40 people) voting to be racist is the fault of Robert's Rules. Majority voters being jerks to minorities goes back for millennia. Maybe Sarah Robert did invoke something specific to Robert's rules in the voting process but the article doesn't make that point.

It's kind of like positing that Robert's rules led to No Homers.
posted by Candleman at 12:49 AM on April 30, 2023 [7 favorites]

we bought 100 packets of shares and started calling meetings - we didn't have enough shares to pass anything but we could cause mayhem, especially at the AGM

posted by mbo

eponysterical?
posted by chavenet at 11:11 AM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

If you have a group of people that want to experience Robert's Rules of Order, who are not members of the same decision making assembly, but who do like tabletop roleplaying games that are very loosely based on the world's most popular TTRPG this game might be for you. The game description:

A Social Justice Warrior, an Intersectional Paladin, a Rogue Worker... this can be you in Rules & Roberts! Engage in collective decision making while exploring perilous dungeons and fantastical realms.

Rules & Roberts is a lightweight storytelling game that will introduce players to Robert's Rule of Order, a set of parliamentary procedures used by a wide range of democratic organizations.

• For 3 to 3000 players
• Easy to learn: no dice nor complicated stats
• Includes a set of hilarious campaigns
• Educational for both players and Dungeon Masters
• A fantasy game designed by and for leftists
• FREE

posted by ApplAuD at 11:36 AM on April 30, 2023 [23 favorites]

OMG incredible idea
posted by latkes at 4:37 PM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

Great article, thanks for linking.

I’ve served on and chaired municipal commissions and boards, where Robert’s Rules are mandated. It’s a powerful tool if you understand it; it didn’t help our groups make better decisions.

Forty-five years ago, I lived in a 40-person coop named after Martha Quest. We had weekly all-house meetings clogged with bike-shedding. I was part of the cabal which devised “Martha’s Rules of Order”; a modified–consensus governance system. From the intro:

We recognize that consensus decision making, while it takes a lot of time, makes for high quality decisions. But some decisions are not worth the effort. So we developed a way to decide whether or not an issue was important enough to warrant taking the extra time to reach consensus.

It’s survived into the 21st century

• Happily time and use have compressed it and made it clearer
• It’s showing up in software design!
• The wordy original text is more legible than the spirit alcohol copies we distributed

posted by Jesse the K at 4:44 PM on April 30, 2023 [17 favorites]

One of the things that makes meetings efficient is a) a good agenda, b) either set times or a system of timed blocks that can be extended (once) by vote, c) a strict ending time, and d) a Chair who is willing and able to enforce all of the above. Not only does this speed things up and help use the time better, but it helps creat a committee/meeting culture that does not reward time wasting or running on. Submitting reports in advance and limiting discussion to questions is also super-helpful. Presentations are almost always better delivered as reports.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:09 PM on April 30, 2023 [5 favorites]

Also, except for the Chair (and Vice Chair, if any), committee members really only need to understand:

1. Making a motion (and seconding)
2. Amendments (friendly and not)
3. Voting method
4. Tabling
5. Calling the question

There are a few other common-ish moves, but with a committee that is actually trying to get work done, this is usually enough, with a few nudged from the Chair (or Parliamentarian, if the committee is large enough to need one). It’s not quite as arcane as it seems, unless everyone is into weird minutiae.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:52 PM on April 30, 2023 [5 favorites]

We recognize that consensus decision making, while it takes a lot of time, makes for high quality decisions. But some decisions are not worth the effort. So we developed a way to decide whether or not an issue was important enough to warrant taking the extra time to reach consensus.

"I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as sort of supreme executive officer for the week...[Yes]....But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting...[Yes, I see]...by a simple majority. In the case of purely internal affairs...[Be quiet]...require two thirds. In the case of old ladies..."
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:29 AM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]

All I know about Robert's Rules of Order are that while someone ought to take notes, that someone had better not be taking notes on a criminal mf'in conspiracy.
posted by epj at 1:30 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]