To be more specific, he’s a surgeon.
May 10, 2023 8:54 AM Subscribe
“I AM A SURGEON!!” [Twitter] If you’ve been on social media over the past few days, you’ve probably seen an incandescent doctor (played by Freddie Highmore) yelling that he is a surgeon while an impassive Dr. Jackson Han (played by Daniel Dae Hyun Kim) watches from his desk. It’s a fascinating few seconds of television, especially when it’s been divorced of all context, then remixed, amplified, and snipped into smaller memes. Where did this even come from? The Good Doctor is a show originally adapted from the South Korean drama Good Doctor, and it aired in the United States on ABC for six seasons. [...] The clip of this scene, which has now circulated across numerous social media platforms, seems to have first been interpreted ironically on TikTok. Users initially posted it in full in late April; then it proliferated in a series of increasingly absurd edits, before making its way onto Twitter. People aren’t sharing this clip because they’re amazed by Highmore’s intense performance or the quality of the script.” [via: Polygon]
it aired in the United States on ABC for six seasons
That's a weird way to phrase it. The finale of season 6 of the show aired just last week, and it has been renewed for a seventh season.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:11 AM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
That's a weird way to phrase it. The finale of season 6 of the show aired just last week, and it has been renewed for a seventh season.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:11 AM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Language is a virus. - L. Anderson
posted by Fupped Duck at 9:18 AM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Fupped Duck at 9:18 AM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's a weird way to phrase it. The finale of season 6 of the show aired just last week, and it has been renewed for a seventh season.
Phew, I was thinking, that show is already in the past? How old can I be???
posted by praemunire at 9:40 AM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Phew, I was thinking, that show is already in the past? How old can I be???
posted by praemunire at 9:40 AM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Man, I've seen a couple tiny snippets of that show go by without having any context at all for it and I found myself thinking "this isn't really really a show about a Dramatically Tropishly Autistic Savant Doctor played for network television audiences is it?" and I, uh, welp. Welp.
posted by cortex at 9:44 AM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex at 9:44 AM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've seen so many ads for The Good Doctor and not a single one of them made me go "hey, you know, I want to watch that show!" It seemed like Extremely Offensive Trash from right out of the gate.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:49 AM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:49 AM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean, the only good thing I can say about this show is that this meme was born out of it and what a ridiculous and absurd chain of events that led us here.
Also, Bates Motel is worth checking out. Freddie Highmore shined in that series, but this is definitely not that.
posted by Fizz at 9:53 AM on May 10, 2023
Also, Bates Motel is worth checking out. Freddie Highmore shined in that series, but this is definitely not that.
posted by Fizz at 9:53 AM on May 10, 2023
I've seen one clip of this show, where the weasel faced incel doctor, who I think is the title character, is going on and on about this patient whose gender identity they obstinately refuse to acknowledge and then acts smug when the patient has testicular cancer. Fuck that character, fuck the writers, fuck the show, and I'm not too pleased with the people who watched this show, on purpose, more than once, to such a degree they made more than a season of it.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
Sarah Kurchak on Twitter: Kind of feels like we had one shining moment where non-autistic people were starting to get why The Good Doctor was not universally beloved by autistic people and then it veered into non-autistics finding a way to make fun of autistic traits while pretending they're on our side.
posted by Lexica at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Lexica at 10:25 AM on May 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
A couple of my favourite responses seen so far:
Glamorous | @againstvapes
* Really wonder sometimes if I'm not living up to my full ND potential, like yesterday I used google to multiply 10 * 40. I do have a whole ass degree in maths, but...
posted by Buntix at 10:42 AM on May 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Glamorous | @againstvapes
The actor for the Good Doctor is actually British! You may recognise him from Charlie and The Chocolate factory. While Dr Sean Murphy is an American character, the show hints at his British roots by having him harass a trans childI did watch a few episodes when it first came out, and even aside from the obnoxious-robot-savant* caricature it just wasn't particularly interesting.
---
Elon Musk's 37th bastard child | @opentoLAN
if I had a nickel for every medical drama produced by David Shore starring an autistic-coded American doctor played by a British actor, I'd have two nickels
which isn't a lot but weird it happened twice
* Really wonder sometimes if I'm not living up to my full ND potential, like yesterday I used google to multiply 10 * 40. I do have a whole ass degree in maths, but...
posted by Buntix at 10:42 AM on May 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
medical drama produced by David Shore starring an autistic-coded American doctor played by a British actor, I'd have two nickels
Wait, was House supposed to be coded as autistic? I thought he was a depressed, self-destructive drug-addict who actually excelled at reading and deciphering non-verbal and sub-textual clues.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:50 AM on May 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
Wait, was House supposed to be coded as autistic? I thought he was a depressed, self-destructive drug-addict who actually excelled at reading and deciphering non-verbal and sub-textual clues.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:50 AM on May 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yeah I don't think House was ever meant to be coded as autistic, he is a thinly-veiled Sherlock Holmes pastiche. (Which, if we go by recent interpretations, means "high-functioning sociopath, do your research.")
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:26 PM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:26 PM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wait, was House supposed to be coded as autistic? I thought he was a depressed, self-destructive drug-addict who actually excelled at reading and deciphering non-verbal and sub-textual clues.
The way this usually works--at least, let's say, in the hands of the less thoughtful twitterati--is that a character has approximately two traits that are sometimes associated with autism, which means that he is "autistic-coded," which means that everything about him is a commentary on autism, which means that those two original traits are meant to be inherently autistic and bad, which means the writer is ableist. It's a discourse loop I wish we could bust out of, especially when you have characters actually described as autistic like this one to worry about.
posted by praemunire at 12:40 PM on May 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
The way this usually works--at least, let's say, in the hands of the less thoughtful twitterati--is that a character has approximately two traits that are sometimes associated with autism, which means that he is "autistic-coded," which means that everything about him is a commentary on autism, which means that those two original traits are meant to be inherently autistic and bad, which means the writer is ableist. It's a discourse loop I wish we could bust out of, especially when you have characters actually described as autistic like this one to worry about.
posted by praemunire at 12:40 PM on May 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is the original Kdrama any good?
posted by atomicstone at 12:46 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by atomicstone at 12:46 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've seen this show quite a bit, as my mom likes it and I'm with her most evenings these days, and as much as I may suspect my own spectrum-ness, I have to take the show's word on the reasonableness of Dr. Sean's rendition. It's a different "style" of autism than Ben Affleck's in The Accountant, but that's neither here nor there (nor Rain Man).
I imagine the show's viewership skews older, so his obstinacy and naivete may be the writers giving the viewer a passage into Dr. Sean's inevitable transformation. I mean, overall it's not Big Bang Theory autsploitation, for what that's worth.
I think the trans issues are more complicated than is discussed above, since one of the main characters (Dr. Shorty Beard) is a transman (played by a gay man).
posted by rhizome at 1:01 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I imagine the show's viewership skews older, so his obstinacy and naivete may be the writers giving the viewer a passage into Dr. Sean's inevitable transformation. I mean, overall it's not Big Bang Theory autsploitation, for what that's worth.
I think the trans issues are more complicated than is discussed above, since one of the main characters (Dr. Shorty Beard) is a transman (played by a gay man).
posted by rhizome at 1:01 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I didn't read House as autistic-coded at all - he's a drug addict, he's an unpleasant and brilliant person and he gets a kick out of being mean to people, but he reads very much as a chemically-enhanced neurotypical to me.
BBC Sherlock reads a little autistic-coded, largely because he's playing (or trying to play) Sherlock Holmes from the books. My opinion, which you are free to not share, is that Cumberbatch does a wonderful job of playing a brilliant and idiosyncratic detective in the 21st century, and a very poor job of playing Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes if Sherlock Holmes was dragged to the 21st century. The person who absolutely nails that character, drug dependency, autistic tendencies, special interests, short-term hyperfocus, sensory quirks, deep human compassion and empathy expressed in ways people around him don't necessarily parse as such (oh, so, autistic tendencies..), and all, is Jonny Lee Miller.
posted by ngaiotonga at 2:42 PM on May 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
BBC Sherlock reads a little autistic-coded, largely because he's playing (or trying to play) Sherlock Holmes from the books. My opinion, which you are free to not share, is that Cumberbatch does a wonderful job of playing a brilliant and idiosyncratic detective in the 21st century, and a very poor job of playing Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes if Sherlock Holmes was dragged to the 21st century. The person who absolutely nails that character, drug dependency, autistic tendencies, special interests, short-term hyperfocus, sensory quirks, deep human compassion and empathy expressed in ways people around him don't necessarily parse as such (oh, so, autistic tendencies..), and all, is Jonny Lee Miller.
posted by ngaiotonga at 2:42 PM on May 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
The actor for the Good Doctor is actually British! You may recognise him from Charlie and The Chocolate factory. While Dr Sean Murphy is an American character, the show hints at his British roots by having him harass a trans child.
Ooof. That one landed hard.
(It's weird that before this week I had only ever seen clips from The Good Doctor, a TV show that nobody under 50 watches, on TikTok, an app that nobody over 50 uses. It turns out that possibly what I was seeing was right-wing tiktokers sharing the part where TGD is an asshole to a trans girl, or possibly progressive tiktokers memeing on right-wing tiktokers sharing that part in a way that I was unable to understand.)
posted by running order squabble fest at 2:45 PM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ooof. That one landed hard.
(It's weird that before this week I had only ever seen clips from The Good Doctor, a TV show that nobody under 50 watches, on TikTok, an app that nobody over 50 uses. It turns out that possibly what I was seeing was right-wing tiktokers sharing the part where TGD is an asshole to a trans girl, or possibly progressive tiktokers memeing on right-wing tiktokers sharing that part in a way that I was unable to understand.)
posted by running order squabble fest at 2:45 PM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure I've ever seen a Sherlock Holmes on-screen that felt like Doyle's Holmes to me, for all I'm quite a fan of Elementary. Sherlock Holmes, to me, always felt like a crime superfan: the guy who monitors every page on the Crimes wiki to revert disinformation, responds to a casual conversation at a party with like 30 minutes of enthusiastic "well ACTUALLY" because he doesn't quite have the social graces to realize that's not fun for everyone else, and mostly gets accused of being a jerk by sour-faced jerks who he's just handily out-dick-competition'd without entirely recognizing it was a dick-measuring competition to begin with.
I always thought he was quite charming. The whole "smart people are dicks about it" in popular media, especially in modern times, felt like a side effect of whatever foul cultural trend produced Aaron Sorkin—you know, that whole idea that smart people must constantly be annoyed with how un-smart everybody else is. My favorite bits in A Study in Scarlet are the ones where the other detectives are tripping over themselves to try and find something, anything that Holmes hasn't, and Holmes is encouraging them, like he's hopeful for both their sakes that they will... only to patiently, sympathetically be like "hey actually that's a word in German so maybe don't go rounding up every woman named Rachel." I'm aware that this is a minority take these days, but the dickweed Sherlocks always felt mean-spirited to me.
ANYWAY all of these The Good Doctor clips are so fucking funny. The whole set of autism-signifier tropes are extremely funny to me, an autistic person, because none of my many spectrum'd friends have a single one of them. I'd genuinely love a show to model a character around the actual idiosyncrasies that actual autistic people have: please give me just one character who compulsively says "mhm" after every sentence that anybody else speaks, interjecting one time per person to explain that they say "mhm" in order to let that person know that they're still listening and attentive.
But in the meantime, we have Doctor Transphobia over here, as if autism makes nonbinary gender hard to understand. Which is so funny to me: what, the mental condition that makes people struggle to understand various systems of thought and order that other people take for granted makes you more transphobic? Instead of, I dunno, the idea that these labels and classifications are founded on a lot more complexity and ambiguity than other people let on or even recognize, and that it's okay not to feel entirely comfortable within those poorly-articulated binaries? I'm probably dealing with some bias, because a lot of my friends are some kind of autistic and a lot more of them are some kind of not-cis, but those always felt like pretty natural overlaps to me.
But what do I know? I'm not a SURGEON I'm not a SURGEON I'm not a SURGEON I'm not a SURGEON I'm nOT a surGEON
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:00 PM on May 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
I always thought he was quite charming. The whole "smart people are dicks about it" in popular media, especially in modern times, felt like a side effect of whatever foul cultural trend produced Aaron Sorkin—you know, that whole idea that smart people must constantly be annoyed with how un-smart everybody else is. My favorite bits in A Study in Scarlet are the ones where the other detectives are tripping over themselves to try and find something, anything that Holmes hasn't, and Holmes is encouraging them, like he's hopeful for both their sakes that they will... only to patiently, sympathetically be like "hey actually that's a word in German so maybe don't go rounding up every woman named Rachel." I'm aware that this is a minority take these days, but the dickweed Sherlocks always felt mean-spirited to me.
ANYWAY all of these The Good Doctor clips are so fucking funny. The whole set of autism-signifier tropes are extremely funny to me, an autistic person, because none of my many spectrum'd friends have a single one of them. I'd genuinely love a show to model a character around the actual idiosyncrasies that actual autistic people have: please give me just one character who compulsively says "mhm" after every sentence that anybody else speaks, interjecting one time per person to explain that they say "mhm" in order to let that person know that they're still listening and attentive.
But in the meantime, we have Doctor Transphobia over here, as if autism makes nonbinary gender hard to understand. Which is so funny to me: what, the mental condition that makes people struggle to understand various systems of thought and order that other people take for granted makes you more transphobic? Instead of, I dunno, the idea that these labels and classifications are founded on a lot more complexity and ambiguity than other people let on or even recognize, and that it's okay not to feel entirely comfortable within those poorly-articulated binaries? I'm probably dealing with some bias, because a lot of my friends are some kind of autistic and a lot more of them are some kind of not-cis, but those always felt like pretty natural overlaps to me.
But what do I know? I'm not a SURGEON I'm not a SURGEON I'm not a SURGEON I'm not a SURGEON I'm nOT a surGEON
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:00 PM on May 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
I don't recall hearing anything about this show until earlier today when I saw this article about transphobia in the show on The Mary Sue. And then I came over here and found a article about it on the blue. It looks like I saw a meme earlier riffing on this with a bunch of phrases differently accented. I had assumed it was a reference to the "I didn't ask for the anal probe" bit in "Passionfish" (which I am convinced was inspired by somebody's experience making the film adaptation of "Communion" which was only a few years before that.)
posted by rmd1023 at 6:59 PM on May 10, 2023
posted by rmd1023 at 6:59 PM on May 10, 2023
I'm aware that this is a minority take these days, but the dickweed Sherlocks always felt mean-spirited to me.
I was fond of the early BBC Sherlock, but he also felt very young and in-progress to me. ACD Holmes, on the other hand, is a gentleman. He worries about the well-being of the vulnerable people in Victorian society who wash up on his doorstep. He doesn't have any enthusiasm for sending criminals who are weak rather than wantonly cruel to prison or the gallows. He can occasionally be rather dry to Lestrade after Lestrade has run him down and then left the crime-solving to him, but it's always very proportionate. Oh, and he was the Sahara itself to the king at the end of Scandal in Bohemia, but that dude had it coming. I wouldn't mind seeing ACD Holmes on TV again (Granada did it well), but you'd need to come up with some new character dynamics and conflicts.
posted by praemunire at 7:52 PM on May 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was fond of the early BBC Sherlock, but he also felt very young and in-progress to me. ACD Holmes, on the other hand, is a gentleman. He worries about the well-being of the vulnerable people in Victorian society who wash up on his doorstep. He doesn't have any enthusiasm for sending criminals who are weak rather than wantonly cruel to prison or the gallows. He can occasionally be rather dry to Lestrade after Lestrade has run him down and then left the crime-solving to him, but it's always very proportionate. Oh, and he was the Sahara itself to the king at the end of Scandal in Bohemia, but that dude had it coming. I wouldn't mind seeing ACD Holmes on TV again (Granada did it well), but you'd need to come up with some new character dynamics and conflicts.
posted by praemunire at 7:52 PM on May 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
just one character who compulsively says "mhm" after every sentence
I had a partner who was really rather freaked out about the state of our relationship until she realised that when I 'mhm' it's not cold or dismissive, and that I actually have an entire vocabulary of slight variations of 'mhm'. TBF I hadn't realised it was something I did either till she mentioned it.
There's a fair amount of evidence to suggest that gender diversity is significantly higher among autistic people (caveat: the study referenced in the linked article was done by Baron-Cohen who has had some dodgy theories and also doesn't seem to factor in the double-empathy problem).
posted by Buntix at 9:11 PM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I had a partner who was really rather freaked out about the state of our relationship until she realised that when I 'mhm' it's not cold or dismissive, and that I actually have an entire vocabulary of slight variations of 'mhm'. TBF I hadn't realised it was something I did either till she mentioned it.
There's a fair amount of evidence to suggest that gender diversity is significantly higher among autistic people (caveat: the study referenced in the linked article was done by Baron-Cohen who has had some dodgy theories and also doesn't seem to factor in the double-empathy problem).
posted by Buntix at 9:11 PM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Honestly, I vastly preferred The Good Doctor to the Big Bang Theory, which was the previously hegemonic autistic caricature as neurotypical entertainment show in my life. I watched most of the first two seasons when they came out, as much as anything because it's always interesting to try and recognize yourself in a fun house mirror. It is, yes, exactly as, um, self congratulatory as it sounds.
This sounds like one hell of an entertaining meme, honestly. These things are always way better to watch (and mock) in company.
posted by sciatrix at 5:32 AM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
This sounds like one hell of an entertaining meme, honestly. These things are always way better to watch (and mock) in company.
posted by sciatrix at 5:32 AM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
....rewatching the specific scene in question, though, hooooo boy the depiction of someone in total meltdown being remixed and decontextualized for the Twitter lulz has some real uncomfortable potential, if you get my meaning.
Like, mannerisms aside, I have in fact had meltdowns that are just about as "cringey" as that, right down to the hyperventilating repetition of one phrase. Not nearly as many now that I'm in adulthood, but then again in adulthood I have more scope to get myself out of situations and away from people who can maneuver me into a meltdown like that and then sit, stone faced and embarrassed, when all attempts to figure out how to communicate and be heard have failed.
Come to think of it, I've even had a meltdown exactly that mortifying in a professional context, although at least I managed to get off the phone before I had to drop the mask of calm, worried-about-my-superior's-distress, soothing confidence. That meltdown was, of course, sparked by that superior's reaction to my apparently unacceptable social demeanor. Which I was trying to modify as best as I could while still getting my needs met.
Is it less embarrassing because the other person was in their own poorly controlled meltdown about me, or because I had done my level best to respond to previous communication requests as I understood them, or because of the fact that I managed to crawl away in private before the sobbing hit? Or is it just that people on the throes of meltdown are really funny if you don't care about why they're in that much distress?
I mean, I've had my own mannerisms in meltdown mocked pretty frequently. Maybe it is that funny from the outside. I wouldn't know; I'm usually not in a position to observe.
posted by sciatrix at 6:01 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Like, mannerisms aside, I have in fact had meltdowns that are just about as "cringey" as that, right down to the hyperventilating repetition of one phrase. Not nearly as many now that I'm in adulthood, but then again in adulthood I have more scope to get myself out of situations and away from people who can maneuver me into a meltdown like that and then sit, stone faced and embarrassed, when all attempts to figure out how to communicate and be heard have failed.
Come to think of it, I've even had a meltdown exactly that mortifying in a professional context, although at least I managed to get off the phone before I had to drop the mask of calm, worried-about-my-superior's-distress, soothing confidence. That meltdown was, of course, sparked by that superior's reaction to my apparently unacceptable social demeanor. Which I was trying to modify as best as I could while still getting my needs met.
Is it less embarrassing because the other person was in their own poorly controlled meltdown about me, or because I had done my level best to respond to previous communication requests as I understood them, or because of the fact that I managed to crawl away in private before the sobbing hit? Or is it just that people on the throes of meltdown are really funny if you don't care about why they're in that much distress?
I mean, I've had my own mannerisms in meltdown mocked pretty frequently. Maybe it is that funny from the outside. I wouldn't know; I'm usually not in a position to observe.
posted by sciatrix at 6:01 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
....rewatching the specific scene in question, though, hooooo boy the depiction of someone in total meltdown being remixed and decontextualized for the Twitter lulz has some real uncomfortable potential, if you get my meaning.
The meme has definitely branched between ND/NT Twitter. Also discovered today that TGD has been interacting with and doing a whole bunch of PSA's for AutismSpeaks (and while apparently, they're under new ownership now, and downplaying their whole eugenics plan to eliminate autism, I think at least some of those PSAs predate that).
It's like meltdowns and shutdowns happen, but the portrayal of how, when, why, how often, and how stressed; matters (it's rarely due to a hand dryer in isolation). And how much they are a defining quality of a person. The AutismSpeaks/AutismParentInfluencer view that it defines us, and is something that needs to be cured is not so good. And tacking on the magical savant thing like a car chase through the streets of Paris, wot?
posted by Buntix at 6:37 AM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
These concerns are all valid, but I would bet that 85% of people seeing the meme don't even know who the guy is supposed to be--the audience for dank memes and for earnest ABC dramas doesn't overlap much--and are laughing at what appears to be ludicrous overacting made all the more absurd-looking by the stoicism of DDK opposite. There are conventions for how extreme emotion is expressed in Anglophone acting, and this scene violates them in a big way.
posted by praemunire at 7:14 AM on May 11, 2023
posted by praemunire at 7:14 AM on May 11, 2023
The show apparently does link itself to Autism Speaks, which, as I understand it, isn't favorably viewed by those who are neurodiverse, given how they see it as a problem to be "fixed".
On a different note, I'd really love it if in medical procedurals, when they have a transfemme patient, they don't make it so she has a "WHAT AN IRONIC" disease.
Good Doctor and House both did it, which was "hur hur, (s)he has testicular cancer, isn't that so wild???"
Chicago Med went for the same thing with the "hur hur, (s)he has prostate cancer, WHAT A TWIST?!", ignoring the fact that HRT tends to dramatically reduce the risk and the Skene's gland is basically a 1:1 correspondence
Gray's Anatomy did it with the "hur hur, she has breast cancer because of her HRT, HOW IRONIC innit guvna?"
at least with those four they hired a woman actor for each (in some cases, actually a trans person), unlike, say, ER or Private Practice where they hired a man instead to do a "i'm too old to pass :( i'm gonna unalive myself" or "i'm depressed so i'll just do a hack job at home"
(i used the (s)he for those first three shows because in each episode one of the major characters, sometimes the main character, decides to just be a dick and does some misgendering 'cause it's "just smart doctor" things i guess)
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:13 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
On a different note, I'd really love it if in medical procedurals, when they have a transfemme patient, they don't make it so she has a "WHAT AN IRONIC" disease.
Good Doctor and House both did it, which was "hur hur, (s)he has testicular cancer, isn't that so wild???"
Chicago Med went for the same thing with the "hur hur, (s)he has prostate cancer, WHAT A TWIST?!", ignoring the fact that HRT tends to dramatically reduce the risk and the Skene's gland is basically a 1:1 correspondence
Gray's Anatomy did it with the "hur hur, she has breast cancer because of her HRT, HOW IRONIC innit guvna?"
at least with those four they hired a woman actor for each (in some cases, actually a trans person), unlike, say, ER or Private Practice where they hired a man instead to do a "i'm too old to pass :( i'm gonna unalive myself" or "i'm depressed so i'll just do a hack job at home"
(i used the (s)he for those first three shows because in each episode one of the major characters, sometimes the main character, decides to just be a dick and does some misgendering 'cause it's "just smart doctor" things i guess)
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:13 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
These concerns are all valid, but I would bet that 85% of people seeing the meme don't even know who the guy is supposed to be--the audience for dank memes and for earnest ABC dramas doesn't overlap much--and are laughing at what appears to be ludicrous overacting made all the more absurd-looking by the stoicism of DDK opposite. There are conventions for how extreme emotion is expressed in Anglophone acting, and this scene violates them in a big way.
Sure! But I mean, 85% of the people who laugh and go "oh, herp derp" as a "haha, silly/dumb movement" don't realize that the sounds are, uh. explicitly mimicking some of the vocalizations associated with disabled people... even as they start mimicking the gestures associated with same. You know? Stripped of context, it's a guy having an extremely emotional reaction while another guy looks on in pained embarrassment. It's not like taunting autistic or "weird" people into meltdowns for the entertainment value of watching the [presumed-inappropriate-to-observer] emotional reaction isn't still depressingly common, either. It's one of the big patterns of casual abuse of disabled people as a form of humor. Just because that's not the conscious intent of the listeners doesn't mean that they won't lean farther into traits associated with disabled people absent a label.
With autism in particular, it's like many people have two mental categories: one for autism with that label, which is bad to mock openly, and another one for people who have traits generally associated with autistic people, like... intense interests in awkward, 'cringey' topics, weird grooming habits, internal rigidity about specific things, and weird repetitive mannerisms. As long as you don't use the word 'autistic', people can get downright vicious about groups of people fitting that description. In the circles I'm in, they usually lob the word "cringe" at those people, yeah? And until you invoke the 'autism' label, those people are fair game for all kinds of unpleasant things.
That's not to say that everyone needs to befriend Cat Piss Man from the comic store immediately, right; Cat Piss Man probably has a bunch of unpleasant behaviors that he might or might not be interested in changing for you, and he might or might not have the skills to be a decent friend or lash out at you back. Like, Cat Piss Man is an unpleasant touchstone for a reason, and the effects of social isolation and marginalization for long periods of time create particular personality profiles that often don't reward increased interaction (to put it mildly). But I do think it's worth thinking about what things we're laughing at and why, and this is the Overthinking a Plate of Beans website. 🤷 Autistic people violate conventions for how emotion of all levels 'should' be expressed all the time, you know? Some of those violations are unacceptable in a workspace--we do expect a higher level of emotional control than that, for good reason, because that kind of meltdown is flooding for everyone around you too--but some of them are neutral.
It's like meltdowns and shutdowns happen, but the portrayal of how, when, why, how often, and how stressed; matters (it's rarely due to a hand dryer in isolation). And how much they are a defining quality of a person. The AutismSpeaks/AutismParentInfluencer view that it defines us, and is something that needs to be cured is not so good. And tacking on the magical savant thing like a car chase through the streets of Paris, wot?
Oh hell yeah. The reason I have way fewer meltdowns in adulthood is that as an adult, I get to surround myself with people who take my distress seriously well before I hit the level of total meltdown: no one is dragging me to highly crowded public areas without letting me tap out if I get overloaded; no one is forcing me to take part in activities I know will overwhelm me, and I can make my own choices about what is worth it and what ain't. My actual emotional control has not really changed that much, but the level of situational stress I find myself exposed to sure has.
posted by sciatrix at 11:58 AM on May 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Sure! But I mean, 85% of the people who laugh and go "oh, herp derp" as a "haha, silly/dumb movement" don't realize that the sounds are, uh. explicitly mimicking some of the vocalizations associated with disabled people... even as they start mimicking the gestures associated with same. You know? Stripped of context, it's a guy having an extremely emotional reaction while another guy looks on in pained embarrassment. It's not like taunting autistic or "weird" people into meltdowns for the entertainment value of watching the [presumed-inappropriate-to-observer] emotional reaction isn't still depressingly common, either. It's one of the big patterns of casual abuse of disabled people as a form of humor. Just because that's not the conscious intent of the listeners doesn't mean that they won't lean farther into traits associated with disabled people absent a label.
With autism in particular, it's like many people have two mental categories: one for autism with that label, which is bad to mock openly, and another one for people who have traits generally associated with autistic people, like... intense interests in awkward, 'cringey' topics, weird grooming habits, internal rigidity about specific things, and weird repetitive mannerisms. As long as you don't use the word 'autistic', people can get downright vicious about groups of people fitting that description. In the circles I'm in, they usually lob the word "cringe" at those people, yeah? And until you invoke the 'autism' label, those people are fair game for all kinds of unpleasant things.
That's not to say that everyone needs to befriend Cat Piss Man from the comic store immediately, right; Cat Piss Man probably has a bunch of unpleasant behaviors that he might or might not be interested in changing for you, and he might or might not have the skills to be a decent friend or lash out at you back. Like, Cat Piss Man is an unpleasant touchstone for a reason, and the effects of social isolation and marginalization for long periods of time create particular personality profiles that often don't reward increased interaction (to put it mildly). But I do think it's worth thinking about what things we're laughing at and why, and this is the Overthinking a Plate of Beans website. 🤷 Autistic people violate conventions for how emotion of all levels 'should' be expressed all the time, you know? Some of those violations are unacceptable in a workspace--we do expect a higher level of emotional control than that, for good reason, because that kind of meltdown is flooding for everyone around you too--but some of them are neutral.
It's like meltdowns and shutdowns happen, but the portrayal of how, when, why, how often, and how stressed; matters (it's rarely due to a hand dryer in isolation). And how much they are a defining quality of a person. The AutismSpeaks/AutismParentInfluencer view that it defines us, and is something that needs to be cured is not so good. And tacking on the magical savant thing like a car chase through the streets of Paris, wot?
Oh hell yeah. The reason I have way fewer meltdowns in adulthood is that as an adult, I get to surround myself with people who take my distress seriously well before I hit the level of total meltdown: no one is dragging me to highly crowded public areas without letting me tap out if I get overloaded; no one is forcing me to take part in activities I know will overwhelm me, and I can make my own choices about what is worth it and what ain't. My actual emotional control has not really changed that much, but the level of situational stress I find myself exposed to sure has.
posted by sciatrix at 11:58 AM on May 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
ANYWAY all of these The Good Doctor clips are so fucking funny. The whole set of autism-signifier tropes are extremely funny to me, an autistic person, because none of my many spectrum'd friends have a single one of them. I'd genuinely love a show to model a character around the actual idiosyncrasies that actual autistic people have: please give me just one character who compulsively says "mhm" after every sentence that anybody else speaks, interjecting one time per person to explain that they say "mhm" in order to let that person know that they're still listening and attentive.
Same here. The "I am a surgeon!" scene is so far off from what a meltdown for an autistic person might look like that it's practically in the uncanny valley for me. Meltdowns involve repeating the same phrase over and over again in quasi-robot voice. It's so so far into "not even wrong" territory. As in not even close to be in the ballpark or neighborhood of being right...
But in the meantime, we have Doctor Transphobia over here, as if autism makes nonbinary gender hard to understand. Which is so funny to me: what, the mental condition that makes people struggle to understand various systems of thought and order that other people take for granted makes you more transphobic?
This is so wack, because autistic people are more likely than the general population to identify as LGBTQ, especially to identify as trans. And this is happening at a time when autism is frequently used as an excuse to block gender-affirming care!
posted by jonp72 at 2:33 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Same here. The "I am a surgeon!" scene is so far off from what a meltdown for an autistic person might look like that it's practically in the uncanny valley for me. Meltdowns involve repeating the same phrase over and over again in quasi-robot voice. It's so so far into "not even wrong" territory. As in not even close to be in the ballpark or neighborhood of being right...
But in the meantime, we have Doctor Transphobia over here, as if autism makes nonbinary gender hard to understand. Which is so funny to me: what, the mental condition that makes people struggle to understand various systems of thought and order that other people take for granted makes you more transphobic?
This is so wack, because autistic people are more likely than the general population to identify as LGBTQ, especially to identify as trans. And this is happening at a time when autism is frequently used as an excuse to block gender-affirming care!
posted by jonp72 at 2:33 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
My brain hurts!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:31 PM on May 11, 2023
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:31 PM on May 11, 2023
This is so wack, because autistic people are more likely than the general population to identify as LGBTQ, especially to identify as trans.
I'm 30 or 40 years old & until maybe a decade ago I just assumed nobody actually had an internal sense of gender & we were all simply performing the one that went with our assigned genitals because that was yet another allistic rule like "the trousers you wear in public must be uncomfortable for some reason"
posted by taquito sunrise at 6:12 AM on May 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm 30 or 40 years old & until maybe a decade ago I just assumed nobody actually had an internal sense of gender & we were all simply performing the one that went with our assigned genitals because that was yet another allistic rule like "the trousers you wear in public must be uncomfortable for some reason"
posted by taquito sunrise at 6:12 AM on May 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
So TikTok has recently given me a ton of clips from House, which I never watched while it was on, and I've gotten completely hooked. (And the algorithm keeps giving it to me, now that I've essentially watched several episodes over the course of multiple three-minute TikToks.)
There's an episode where House is treating an autistic kid, and seems to be considering for a moment that he might be on the spectrum. One of the other doctors says to him, "You're not autistic; you don't even have Asperger's. You're just a jerk." And House heartily agrees and that's that.
What is a little more concerning to me is the number of people (specifically on TikTok but over other social media) who proclaim themselves to be neurodivergent (primarily autistic or ADHD) based on a couple minor qualities (I don't like talking on the phone, I have trouble focusing on stuff I don't want to do, I dislike small talk, etc.) that apply to basically everyone. I don't get it - why the need to self-diagnose? Is it just that people are obsessed with being different or special?
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:43 AM on May 12, 2023
There's an episode where House is treating an autistic kid, and seems to be considering for a moment that he might be on the spectrum. One of the other doctors says to him, "You're not autistic; you don't even have Asperger's. You're just a jerk." And House heartily agrees and that's that.
What is a little more concerning to me is the number of people (specifically on TikTok but over other social media) who proclaim themselves to be neurodivergent (primarily autistic or ADHD) based on a couple minor qualities (I don't like talking on the phone, I have trouble focusing on stuff I don't want to do, I dislike small talk, etc.) that apply to basically everyone. I don't get it - why the need to self-diagnose? Is it just that people are obsessed with being different or special?
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 7:43 AM on May 12, 2023
I don't get it - why the need to self-diagnose? Is it just that people are obsessed with being different or special?
I think there's probably always a little bit of the latter in the mix—or not even a need to be different per se but a desire to relate to others who also share those qualities, even, to feel included in a sense of "this is a thing about us"—but I think it's also just in a lot of cases folks wanting to find explanations for things they find confusing or frustrating about their lives.
Like, to be able to say "oh maybe I'm disorganized because ADHD, not because I'm just fundamentally a lazy/bad/whatever person" is pretty understandably tempting! And it's a thing where the self-diagnosis per se might be wrong but the recognition that brains are glitchy and varied and don't behave to some optimal standard is itself definitely a healthy thing.
It would be better probably for folks to have the language of "oh, this specific kind of attention/focus thing is a common issue for folks, especially people with significant ADHD, and in any case it's a thing that I deal with too" without having to treat that as a binary of either having/being ADHD or not. But that sort of binary diagnostic framing is what's most immediately approachable for people who are new to thinking about that stuff in regards to themselves.
I have over the years come to recognize some spectrum-y things about myself, but have never really pursued that in a formal way because it hasn't to me been having a big impact on my life; it's been good for me to recognize and understand aspects of neurodivergence, and sufficient to think about how different aspects of that apply to my understanding of myself and how my brain works and how that affects my interactions with other people. On the other hand, I haven't been formally diagnosed with ADHD either but the way the cluster of symptoms and like cognitive modalities associated with it map really really well on to my brainspace has been pretty stark to look at once I started looking, and I've made some decisions and changes about how I think about my own cognition and behavior and my life habits and difficulties based on that. So neither of those are clear, "I am or I'm not, and here's the diagnosis to prove it" situations, they're both just sort of practical self-analysis (and some professional guidance) within a penumbral gamut of brain stuff I'm increasingly self-reflective about.
If I was trying to sort out the same stuff when I was fifteen or twenty or twenty-five with a lot less in the way of concept and vocab context of this stuff, I'd probably be inclined to lean a lot harder toward the label/diagnostic way of describing it, though! Because I just wouldn't have a more fine-grained framework for it.
posted by cortex at 9:17 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think there's probably always a little bit of the latter in the mix—or not even a need to be different per se but a desire to relate to others who also share those qualities, even, to feel included in a sense of "this is a thing about us"—but I think it's also just in a lot of cases folks wanting to find explanations for things they find confusing or frustrating about their lives.
Like, to be able to say "oh maybe I'm disorganized because ADHD, not because I'm just fundamentally a lazy/bad/whatever person" is pretty understandably tempting! And it's a thing where the self-diagnosis per se might be wrong but the recognition that brains are glitchy and varied and don't behave to some optimal standard is itself definitely a healthy thing.
It would be better probably for folks to have the language of "oh, this specific kind of attention/focus thing is a common issue for folks, especially people with significant ADHD, and in any case it's a thing that I deal with too" without having to treat that as a binary of either having/being ADHD or not. But that sort of binary diagnostic framing is what's most immediately approachable for people who are new to thinking about that stuff in regards to themselves.
I have over the years come to recognize some spectrum-y things about myself, but have never really pursued that in a formal way because it hasn't to me been having a big impact on my life; it's been good for me to recognize and understand aspects of neurodivergence, and sufficient to think about how different aspects of that apply to my understanding of myself and how my brain works and how that affects my interactions with other people. On the other hand, I haven't been formally diagnosed with ADHD either but the way the cluster of symptoms and like cognitive modalities associated with it map really really well on to my brainspace has been pretty stark to look at once I started looking, and I've made some decisions and changes about how I think about my own cognition and behavior and my life habits and difficulties based on that. So neither of those are clear, "I am or I'm not, and here's the diagnosis to prove it" situations, they're both just sort of practical self-analysis (and some professional guidance) within a penumbral gamut of brain stuff I'm increasingly self-reflective about.
If I was trying to sort out the same stuff when I was fifteen or twenty or twenty-five with a lot less in the way of concept and vocab context of this stuff, I'd probably be inclined to lean a lot harder toward the label/diagnostic way of describing it, though! Because I just wouldn't have a more fine-grained framework for it.
posted by cortex at 9:17 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Is it just that people are obsessed with being different or special?"
There is so much discussion online about this that I went to the doctor and took the test because everyone else sort of like me is calling themselves neurodivergent now, and I wanted to know if I had something and am not just a weird girl who happens to also have a weird father. In certain contexts, just being socially awkward with no diagnosis self or otherwise makes you different. The test can be costly depending on insurance coverage, so there's a financial barrier. I'm also getting unexpected pushback from people close to me.
posted by Selena777 at 10:03 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
There is so much discussion online about this that I went to the doctor and took the test because everyone else sort of like me is calling themselves neurodivergent now, and I wanted to know if I had something and am not just a weird girl who happens to also have a weird father. In certain contexts, just being socially awkward with no diagnosis self or otherwise makes you different. The test can be costly depending on insurance coverage, so there's a financial barrier. I'm also getting unexpected pushback from people close to me.
posted by Selena777 at 10:03 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Apparently, the powers-that-be wanted to put me on Ritalin in the second or third grade (early 80s) and my mother (a school psychologist) said no. But ultimately, I've had to find workarounds for my own peculiarities in order to do well at my job, pay my bills, etc. So I agree that a label never seemed important (for me) because I had to figure out how to get by regardless in order to be a productive member of society.
The current discussion around neurodivergence reminds me of how being an introvert became fashionable on the internet about 10 or so years ago (likely following the publication of Susan Cain's "Quiet" in 2013). The idea was: there are "normies" out there (extroverts, neurotypicals, etc.), and the world is designed to benefit those normies, and I am not one of those normies, which means that I struggle but nevertheless have other fine underappreciated qualities. There is of course a lot of truth to that (my wife is an introvert and it certainly applies to her), but the reality is that life is hard for a lot of people, for a lot of different reasons.
Sorry for the tangent. :)
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:38 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
The current discussion around neurodivergence reminds me of how being an introvert became fashionable on the internet about 10 or so years ago (likely following the publication of Susan Cain's "Quiet" in 2013). The idea was: there are "normies" out there (extroverts, neurotypicals, etc.), and the world is designed to benefit those normies, and I am not one of those normies, which means that I struggle but nevertheless have other fine underappreciated qualities. There is of course a lot of truth to that (my wife is an introvert and it certainly applies to her), but the reality is that life is hard for a lot of people, for a lot of different reasons.
Sorry for the tangent. :)
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:38 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
i don't see a huge problem with self-diagnosis, given that in a lot of cases, suspicion of having a condition often comes from the person realizing they have a lot of similarities with others with that same condition; sometimes it even helps with recognizing a diagnosis that might have been missed.
in my case, it turns out i do have adhd; i came to have this suspicion upon hearing more and more women, diagnosed later in life, discuss their experiences, and i eventually did get screened. more interestingly, as part of the screening it asked for some behaviors from early in life, as adhd is classified as a developmental disorder--and my symptoms lined up quite well and could have been diagnosable, had they been looking for it. it's just that my traits lined up with inattentive, rather than hyperactive, and they generally don't look for inattentive with children who look like boys as much, so...
the one thing to note though is that with a lot of developmental disorders, sometimes it's easier to view them almost as drag (as in fluid dynamics, not Queer): if you've got a rocket motor, adhd might not slow you down as much because you're able to compensate for it; if you have a four-horsepower lawn mower engine, that same level of adhd might be much more of a weight. conversely, if you've got that rocket motor, you might be able to compensate for adhd... but maybe not adhd and asd and dysgraphia.
relatedly, it's likely that this is in some ways how autism gets underdiagnosed with those seen as women and femmes, especially early in life, precisely because societal expectations forces those same femme children to find ways of compensating while not expecting the same from men and masc children.
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:26 PM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
in my case, it turns out i do have adhd; i came to have this suspicion upon hearing more and more women, diagnosed later in life, discuss their experiences, and i eventually did get screened. more interestingly, as part of the screening it asked for some behaviors from early in life, as adhd is classified as a developmental disorder--and my symptoms lined up quite well and could have been diagnosable, had they been looking for it. it's just that my traits lined up with inattentive, rather than hyperactive, and they generally don't look for inattentive with children who look like boys as much, so...
the one thing to note though is that with a lot of developmental disorders, sometimes it's easier to view them almost as drag (as in fluid dynamics, not Queer): if you've got a rocket motor, adhd might not slow you down as much because you're able to compensate for it; if you have a four-horsepower lawn mower engine, that same level of adhd might be much more of a weight. conversely, if you've got that rocket motor, you might be able to compensate for adhd... but maybe not adhd and asd and dysgraphia.
relatedly, it's likely that this is in some ways how autism gets underdiagnosed with those seen as women and femmes, especially early in life, precisely because societal expectations forces those same femme children to find ways of compensating while not expecting the same from men and masc children.
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:26 PM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have over the years come to recognize some spectrum-y things about myself,
Like participating in, and for a while running, a site dedicated to allowing people to be spectacularly enthusiastic about their special interests?
i don't see a huge problem with self-diagnosis, given that in a lot of cases, suspicion of having a condition often comes from the person realizing they have a lot of similarities with others with that same condition; sometimes it even helps with recognizing a diagnosis that might have been missed.
TBH it's increasingly looking like an official diagnosis may be a bad idea.
posted by Buntix at 2:54 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like participating in, and for a while running, a site dedicated to allowing people to be spectacularly enthusiastic about their special interests?
i don't see a huge problem with self-diagnosis, given that in a lot of cases, suspicion of having a condition often comes from the person realizing they have a lot of similarities with others with that same condition; sometimes it even helps with recognizing a diagnosis that might have been missed.
TBH it's increasingly looking like an official diagnosis may be a bad idea.
posted by Buntix at 2:54 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
also worth noting that ADHD and autism diagnosis were subject to strong historical changes in diagnosis rates and diagnostic thresholds that wildly change the experiences of diagnosed vs self-diagnosed people based on generation. more on that in this excellent tumblr oral history post I've been seeing pass by on my dash lately.
fwiw, I was diagnosed with the ADHD at 7, the autism at 12, and was around for my partner's diagnosis a few years ago at I think 27, 28? the diagnosing psychologist in question delivered that diagnosis with an air of "as you already know, bob..." and like... my experiences are generally not all that different from the experiences of folks who are self-diagnosing in adulthood. I have a lot of teacher comments through elementary school and middle school I was looking through the other night, and it's honestly kind of hilarious how textbook they were, even though my mother did not want me to be diagnosed either and was very careful to keep diagnosis out of there.
it is almost impossible to underscore enough how many children who are now adults passed through a diagnostic system that did not look at them very closely to evaluate them for either autism or adhd, or both. especially people older than I am. and it is harder to diagnose adults because we develop coping mechanisms and we make ourselves masks, because we are learning creatures and we learn to compensate. some people get very good at it.
literally I was looking for a recommendation for a relationship counselor for two autistic adults in my networks the other day and there is no clinician infrastructure for that. in an enormous city. for an incredibly common condition... that tends to be discussed purely in the context of early childhood. but it doesn't go away. the absence of support, training, and professional expertise directed towards neurodivergent adults is just astounding. and of course you also do get conflicts between people who cannot compensate or pass enough to avoid notice, and who deal with the consequences of early identification--many of which are not positive, as it turns out--and people who were missed, and poor fuckers like me who were identified and not provided the sorts of supports that the people who were missed often seem to assume are common.
just--why would you shell out the money for formal diagnosis if you don't need to? almost all the useful stuff out there, like modeling how to move through the world and how to structure your life to suit, that shit is online from poor idiots figuring ourselves out on the fly and sharing ideas. for adhd, stimulant meds are great and worth seeking diagnosis to access, but for autistic people in particular, why in the hell would you bother? there's no particularly useful treatment for anything tuned at autistic adults. there's no occupational therapy for adults. there's no formalized research on autistic burnout that is more than about five years old. we are seeing the wave of autistic adults diagnosed around when I was, when Asperger's was the buzzword of the week, hit middle age and start struggling... and the terminology we use to describe and understand why that is, and the patterns we recognize in other adults, those things are things the research community is only very slowly beginning to seriously pay any attention at all to. because so much autism research money is directed towards, pardon my french, absolute hog shit. technically I'm an autism researcher now so I get to say it, right? it's all on causes and etiology and young children; very very little is actually directed at, like, helping us once we actually exist, unless we can't maintain a mask and keep going.
anyway self diagnose if it helps you understand yourself, that's my motto. that's the hegemonic approach to self diagnosis within formally diagnosed autistics for a reason, my dude; the people complaining about it largely seem to be self-identified neurotypicals or people who have never before had to consider the category as applicable. because these are developmental diagnoses, they are part of our baseline experience of the world, and we as humans tend to assume that normal for us is normal for everyone--so it is so, so easy for neurodivergent people who have not been identified to react to descriptions of neurodivergence with baffled confusion, because that shit is normal. for them. for us. but apparently not for other people.
posted by sciatrix at 3:03 PM on May 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
fwiw, I was diagnosed with the ADHD at 7, the autism at 12, and was around for my partner's diagnosis a few years ago at I think 27, 28? the diagnosing psychologist in question delivered that diagnosis with an air of "as you already know, bob..." and like... my experiences are generally not all that different from the experiences of folks who are self-diagnosing in adulthood. I have a lot of teacher comments through elementary school and middle school I was looking through the other night, and it's honestly kind of hilarious how textbook they were, even though my mother did not want me to be diagnosed either and was very careful to keep diagnosis out of there.
it is almost impossible to underscore enough how many children who are now adults passed through a diagnostic system that did not look at them very closely to evaluate them for either autism or adhd, or both. especially people older than I am. and it is harder to diagnose adults because we develop coping mechanisms and we make ourselves masks, because we are learning creatures and we learn to compensate. some people get very good at it.
literally I was looking for a recommendation for a relationship counselor for two autistic adults in my networks the other day and there is no clinician infrastructure for that. in an enormous city. for an incredibly common condition... that tends to be discussed purely in the context of early childhood. but it doesn't go away. the absence of support, training, and professional expertise directed towards neurodivergent adults is just astounding. and of course you also do get conflicts between people who cannot compensate or pass enough to avoid notice, and who deal with the consequences of early identification--many of which are not positive, as it turns out--and people who were missed, and poor fuckers like me who were identified and not provided the sorts of supports that the people who were missed often seem to assume are common.
just--why would you shell out the money for formal diagnosis if you don't need to? almost all the useful stuff out there, like modeling how to move through the world and how to structure your life to suit, that shit is online from poor idiots figuring ourselves out on the fly and sharing ideas. for adhd, stimulant meds are great and worth seeking diagnosis to access, but for autistic people in particular, why in the hell would you bother? there's no particularly useful treatment for anything tuned at autistic adults. there's no occupational therapy for adults. there's no formalized research on autistic burnout that is more than about five years old. we are seeing the wave of autistic adults diagnosed around when I was, when Asperger's was the buzzword of the week, hit middle age and start struggling... and the terminology we use to describe and understand why that is, and the patterns we recognize in other adults, those things are things the research community is only very slowly beginning to seriously pay any attention at all to. because so much autism research money is directed towards, pardon my french, absolute hog shit. technically I'm an autism researcher now so I get to say it, right? it's all on causes and etiology and young children; very very little is actually directed at, like, helping us once we actually exist, unless we can't maintain a mask and keep going.
anyway self diagnose if it helps you understand yourself, that's my motto. that's the hegemonic approach to self diagnosis within formally diagnosed autistics for a reason, my dude; the people complaining about it largely seem to be self-identified neurotypicals or people who have never before had to consider the category as applicable. because these are developmental diagnoses, they are part of our baseline experience of the world, and we as humans tend to assume that normal for us is normal for everyone--so it is so, so easy for neurodivergent people who have not been identified to react to descriptions of neurodivergence with baffled confusion, because that shit is normal. for them. for us. but apparently not for other people.
posted by sciatrix at 3:03 PM on May 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
tl, dr: even aside from costs of diagnosis, for autism there's nothing behind the gatekeeper's wall to access anyway if you jump through the hoops. so who gives a shit about the formalities? mostly people who want validation that they definitely are like this, a Professional said so. but like. usually it's not hard to figure out if this is a useful framework or not.
posted by sciatrix at 3:04 PM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 3:04 PM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
TBH it's increasingly looking like an official diagnosis may be a bad idea.
it's why i haven't sought any additional ones past adhd
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:18 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
it's why i haven't sought any additional ones past adhd
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:18 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
just--why would you shell out the money for formal diagnosis if you don't need to
this much is also true--for some of us who progressed without an official diagnosis, social pressure has forced a lot of us to learn how to mask and essentially compensate for that bit of drag (as in fluid dynamics) with a bit of drag (as in Queer/performance). it is functional enough. and if forced to leave, an official diagnosis would only serve as an anchor.
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:20 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
this much is also true--for some of us who progressed without an official diagnosis, social pressure has forced a lot of us to learn how to mask and essentially compensate for that bit of drag (as in fluid dynamics) with a bit of drag (as in Queer/performance). it is functional enough. and if forced to leave, an official diagnosis would only serve as an anchor.
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:20 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
TBH it's increasingly looking like an official diagnosis may be a bad idea.
Wait, why?
posted by Selena777 at 3:39 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wait, why?
posted by Selena777 at 3:39 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Missouri is currently attempting to implement a rule that anyone seeking HRT treatment must be first screened for autism or "social media addiction," which is one of a few different prongs of attempts to undermine access to gender affirming care specifically for autistic people, who apparently cannot meaningfully advocate for ourselves. Autism has also been used to question autistic adults' ability to be fit custodial parents and there's been at least one recent initiative to put autism status on driver's licenses (!), which was pretty upsetting.
I'm actually moving towards disclosing more in my life right now anyway for a variety of reasons--gender issues aside I don't need HRT access, I have no children, and I have the enormous privilege of a fairly prestigious-sounding career--but I do think that folks seeking football diagnosis should consider the potential drawbacks of same. And then I think they should fight like hell to kill any similar proposals they see with every ounce of power they hold, however they can wield it.
I do think that more people being openly autistic adults is a way to squash those proposals, because doing that helps humanize and contextualize autism as a category. But I also think that's a decision that should be made for each individual person with eyes wide open according to the context they're trying to grapple with, and fuck knows that I don't think trans folks who need HRT access need more battles to fight right now.
posted by sciatrix at 6:10 PM on May 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm actually moving towards disclosing more in my life right now anyway for a variety of reasons--gender issues aside I don't need HRT access, I have no children, and I have the enormous privilege of a fairly prestigious-sounding career--but I do think that folks seeking football diagnosis should consider the potential drawbacks of same. And then I think they should fight like hell to kill any similar proposals they see with every ounce of power they hold, however they can wield it.
I do think that more people being openly autistic adults is a way to squash those proposals, because doing that helps humanize and contextualize autism as a category. But I also think that's a decision that should be made for each individual person with eyes wide open according to the context they're trying to grapple with, and fuck knows that I don't think trans folks who need HRT access need more battles to fight right now.
posted by sciatrix at 6:10 PM on May 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
>> TBH it's increasingly looking like an official diagnosis may be a bad idea.
> Wait, why?
while i'm not trying to be a catastrophizer:
- there is a noticeable correlation between people who are not cis and being on the spectrum
- given:
--- republican successes in state houses;
--- a difficult set of upcoming elections for democrats;
--- weak support from some democrats in some state legislatures;
--- an increasingly negative media environment; and
--- a conservatively stacked judiciary
many non-cis individuals are somewhere along the many, many stages of figuring out if, how, and when to emigrate when the federal government's protections are no longer effectively guaranteed
- many countries, including canada, already have a difficult immigration process, and an official autism diagnosis is often seen as a killshot.
an official diagnosis may not be a good idea if you're considering emigration in any form
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:46 AM on May 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
> Wait, why?
while i'm not trying to be a catastrophizer:
- there is a noticeable correlation between people who are not cis and being on the spectrum
- given:
--- republican successes in state houses;
--- a difficult set of upcoming elections for democrats;
--- weak support from some democrats in some state legislatures;
--- an increasingly negative media environment; and
--- a conservatively stacked judiciary
many non-cis individuals are somewhere along the many, many stages of figuring out if, how, and when to emigrate when the federal government's protections are no longer effectively guaranteed
- many countries, including canada, already have a difficult immigration process, and an official autism diagnosis is often seen as a killshot.
an official diagnosis may not be a good idea if you're considering emigration in any form
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:46 AM on May 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
many countries, including canada, already have a difficult immigration process, and an official autism diagnosis is often seen as a killshot.
Aotearoa as well: New Zealand denies entry to autistic daughter of immigrant couple
Essentially a diagnosis may lead to you being infantilised and considered a burden. Which can also result in things like being pressured to sign a DNR as a lot of disabled people were during the pandemic early years.
posted by Buntix at 6:43 AM on May 15, 2023
Aotearoa as well: New Zealand denies entry to autistic daughter of immigrant couple
Essentially a diagnosis may lead to you being infantilised and considered a burden. Which can also result in things like being pressured to sign a DNR as a lot of disabled people were during the pandemic early years.
posted by Buntix at 6:43 AM on May 15, 2023
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posted by Fizz at 9:01 AM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]