‘Resist! Defy! Don’t comply!’
May 27, 2023 5:16 PM Subscribe
Some 200 years after textile workers smashed newfangled looms here during the first stirrings of the industrial revolution, other rebels are worried about a newer technology: tap-and-go bank cards and smartphone payment apps ... An unlikely coalition warns that by giving up cash, people could be losing more than they bargained for. from Paper Money Diehards Refuse to Fold [WSJ; ungated]
No, you really don't need to reevaluate your efforts. This piece is explicitly attempting to portray cash advocates as fringe paranoids. If we lived in a society that offered low- or no-fee banking services to everyone, including the indigent and unhoused, you could make an argument that cash is obsolete. We don't. The WSJ laughing down its sleeve at the needy is nothing new.
posted by phooky at 5:32 PM on May 27, 2023 [55 favorites]
posted by phooky at 5:32 PM on May 27, 2023 [55 favorites]
Credit card fees disproportionately impact small businesses and independent contractors running on tight margins. It’s a kindness to pay and tip in cash when you can.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:41 PM on May 27, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:41 PM on May 27, 2023 [23 favorites]
Cash discounts are the new hotness - I carry much more cash than I used to because you never know when there’s going to be a 4% discount on some $600 or $800 item - that’s real money.
posted by MattD at 5:44 PM on May 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by MattD at 5:44 PM on May 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Cash is universally accepted. (Or, at least it's accepted everywhere that isn't irritatingly futuristic.) The machine might be down, or they might not have one, or they might just only take cash, and you don't have to go far outside of a city to find places without universal cell coverage so you can't venmo or whatever. That said, post-covid I do sometimes feel like people are giving me the stinkeye when I pay in cash and I don't have to. I always make sure to feel bad about it.
posted by surlyben at 6:07 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 6:07 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Cash diehards are funny because the very dark forces they fear are who make paper money valid.
It's like they think the cash was printed by God himself and holds inherent value independent of the system they think they're fighting.
posted by Reyturner at 6:21 PM on May 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
It's like they think the cash was printed by God himself and holds inherent value independent of the system they think they're fighting.
posted by Reyturner at 6:21 PM on May 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
Cash is universally accepted. (Or, at least it's accepted everywhere that isn't irritatingly futuristic.)
Only places I've been that refused cash are Petco Park (San Diego's baseball stadium) and a few National Parks (Mesa Verde and Grand Canyon).
posted by LionIndex at 6:28 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Only places I've been that refused cash are Petco Park (San Diego's baseball stadium) and a few National Parks (Mesa Verde and Grand Canyon).
posted by LionIndex at 6:28 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
We have some places around here, a few burger joints and my barber to name a few, who ONLY take cash. I'm sure this is jointly to avoid service fees and maybe to hide transactions.
I should carry and do more transactions in cash than I do currently. I'm the right level of "yeah, let's stop this tracking here" sort of personality that cash is perfect. But I'm also lazy.
I've never been anywhere that isn't a concert or sports arena or amusement park that refused cash.
posted by hippybear at 6:52 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
I should carry and do more transactions in cash than I do currently. I'm the right level of "yeah, let's stop this tracking here" sort of personality that cash is perfect. But I'm also lazy.
I've never been anywhere that isn't a concert or sports arena or amusement park that refused cash.
posted by hippybear at 6:52 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
The second you find QAnon-type drones on your side, you need to reevaluate your efforts. Kinda like how I'm reevaluating my use of paper money now, because if I find I'm aligned with Q-idiots I may have made some mistakes in my thinking.
Might want to rethink pants and shoes as well... I'm pretty sure a lot of QAnon types wear those as well.
posted by Crane Shot at 7:01 PM on May 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
Might want to rethink pants and shoes as well... I'm pretty sure a lot of QAnon types wear those as well.
posted by Crane Shot at 7:01 PM on May 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
"Credit card fees disproportionately impact small businesses and independent contractors running on tight margins. It’s a kindness to pay and tip in cash when you can."
Huh, I'd always heard that there are costs to cash management that are also pretty significant (but probably harder to quantify).
posted by bfields at 7:11 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Huh, I'd always heard that there are costs to cash management that are also pretty significant (but probably harder to quantify).
posted by bfields at 7:11 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
The last holdouts in my Chicago neighborhood only taking cash gave up during Covid. I increasingly see no cash accepted signs at small businesses which always surprises me because of the credit card fees. Interesting how cash has changed around the world. In Europe I often even forget my wallet and only use my phone to pay. In Chicago there’s still a number of large retailers that don’t take ApplePay or even contactless payment with a physical card. However in Kenya I had trouble getting anyone to accept shillings, or even a card because they all wanted me to use apps I had never heard of. The US, as always, thinks it’s ahead in this sort of tech but is decade(s)? behind the rest of the world in adopting new finance tech.
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:19 PM on May 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:19 PM on May 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Huh, I'd always heard that there are costs to cash management that are also pretty significant (but probably harder to quantify).
I think they are going to disproportionately affect people that handle cash at scale (rather unlike the card costs). Me bringing my till take to the bank at the end of each day is not quite the same scale of problem as needing to move a day's worth of takings out of your ten tills at a busy supermarket. That's when you start needing to think about bringing in externals with an armoured van (and worrying about shrinkage).
posted by Dysk at 7:27 PM on May 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think they are going to disproportionately affect people that handle cash at scale (rather unlike the card costs). Me bringing my till take to the bank at the end of each day is not quite the same scale of problem as needing to move a day's worth of takings out of your ten tills at a busy supermarket. That's when you start needing to think about bringing in externals with an armoured van (and worrying about shrinkage).
posted by Dysk at 7:27 PM on May 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Or think about the legal marijuana businesses in many states which don't have access to banking or cc processing because their business is considered illegal under Federal law. They are cash only, and in some areas they are targets for robbery or their couriers are on the way to deal with the cash.
posted by hippybear at 7:30 PM on May 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 7:30 PM on May 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
Quite a few places here are card-only and don't accept cash, and of course if you have tap cards you can use them as a transit pass for public transport. Other countries that got electronic transit passes earlier actually go the other way, where transit passes can be used to buy goods and services as well.
I think part of the problem here is that America is uniquely dysfunctional, so as time marches on it's not able to, say, offer a national electronic banking system available to all citizens, and so is dependent on Visa, Mastercard, and bank transfer apps to do what other countries just build.
posted by Merus at 7:45 PM on May 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think part of the problem here is that America is uniquely dysfunctional, so as time marches on it's not able to, say, offer a national electronic banking system available to all citizens, and so is dependent on Visa, Mastercard, and bank transfer apps to do what other countries just build.
posted by Merus at 7:45 PM on May 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
The Japanese government/banking/business establishment is all in on cashless payments. Lots of new places popping up, restaurant wise, as “food halls” (glorified food courts) with large real estate firms owning the buildings and renting out spaces, where none of the spaces accept cash. The push during early covid was non-stop, with commercials for companies putting out their own cashless systems (seriously, the list of accepted cashless payments at many establishments looks like a catalogue at this point).
With such a massive push, a concerted effort from so many companies invested heavily in pushing their services, it’s not tin-foil hat to stop and ask why, or better, who benefits? If it’s a charge card, where you add money to it (Pay Pay in Japan), it’s just a way for a large corporation to hold onto your money, interest free, which, when amassed with all the other people using it, creates a giant pool of largely free capital to draw on. Starbucks hasn’t been a coffee company in years, its primary income has been through Starbucks cards holding ridiculous balances. Most motor companies make more money off their financing than they ever make off of producing anything.
Of course, the thing is (especially in Japan) holding onto that money on your own, the pittance you can scrape together, is never going to give you the same level of financial leverage or passive income that these corporations get from it all massed together. No bank is ever going to give you enough interest on your savings to make that account worthwhile, so why not put your money in this app, you’ll get points!
The government angle is a lot worse, in my mind, though I know this isn’t a great position to argue for. Simply put, any cashless payment is a paper trail. In a better, more open, more caring society, that would be less of a problem. Instead, we live in this world, and the people who run it are trying to make sure that every transaction is logged, that nothing takes place under the table. In Japan, where there’s a stupidly low ceiling to what dependent spouses can earn before triggering national insurance and pension payments (at the moment, with the exchange rate, it’s less than $10,000/year) and starting salaries are absurdly low, a lot of people rely on cash under the table jobs to get by. Hell, look at the entire sex and sex adjacent, hostess clubs and the like, industry in Japan or sex work anywhere for that matter. Even in states in the US where pot is legal, it’s still mostly a cash only business because most credit card businesses refuse to work with dispensaries. In what version of the world we live in would it ever become okay to pay for an escort with ApplePay?
I fully realize I’m arguing for tax evasion, which is a shitty position to be in, but when access to a cashless society requires your work to be legal in the eyes of society, and society is getting pretty fucking regressive, what are you supposed to do? Just a couple months back there was a lot of (very good) advice about using only cash when doing anything at all related to abortion in America. Florida is making it okay to remove children from their parents’ custody for practicing any form of affirming gender care, would you feel safe buying anything to do with that using a credit card? And now you’ve got MTG shifting the Overton window by even announcing (doomed) legislation to ban porn, which will open that whole industry to attack and pushback.
And I know this is ranty as hell, but we’ve been living in a world that’s jumping into and through “oh, that would never happen” kind of hand waving like it’s an Olympic event. What insurance company wouldn’t love to see a record of the food you’ve bought as a way to gain leverage to deny claims? “Oh, this guy buys a bag of potato chips every week, we don’t need to cover his heart issues, he brought it on himself.” Sure, it sounds crazy, but so did losing Roe, or gender affirming care being criminalized.
But hey, I’m just a guy with fifteen years experience making sausage and bacon, yet unable to get licensed in my country of residence (I. Have. Tried.) to open a legitimate business, reduced to carrying meat in cooler bags (pulled pork, bacon, bbq sauce, smoked cheese, and coarse ground burger patties, for those curious) for word of mouth customers in order to make ends meet. I have a job that pays better than most, Mrs. Ghidorah works the hours she can as a dependent, but without this, we wouldn’t be able to pay the bills each month, yet from time to time, new members ask if they can use cashless, or if I can just ship the meat to them, and I get to explain all this all over again.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:12 PM on May 27, 2023 [62 favorites]
With such a massive push, a concerted effort from so many companies invested heavily in pushing their services, it’s not tin-foil hat to stop and ask why, or better, who benefits? If it’s a charge card, where you add money to it (Pay Pay in Japan), it’s just a way for a large corporation to hold onto your money, interest free, which, when amassed with all the other people using it, creates a giant pool of largely free capital to draw on. Starbucks hasn’t been a coffee company in years, its primary income has been through Starbucks cards holding ridiculous balances. Most motor companies make more money off their financing than they ever make off of producing anything.
Of course, the thing is (especially in Japan) holding onto that money on your own, the pittance you can scrape together, is never going to give you the same level of financial leverage or passive income that these corporations get from it all massed together. No bank is ever going to give you enough interest on your savings to make that account worthwhile, so why not put your money in this app, you’ll get points!
The government angle is a lot worse, in my mind, though I know this isn’t a great position to argue for. Simply put, any cashless payment is a paper trail. In a better, more open, more caring society, that would be less of a problem. Instead, we live in this world, and the people who run it are trying to make sure that every transaction is logged, that nothing takes place under the table. In Japan, where there’s a stupidly low ceiling to what dependent spouses can earn before triggering national insurance and pension payments (at the moment, with the exchange rate, it’s less than $10,000/year) and starting salaries are absurdly low, a lot of people rely on cash under the table jobs to get by. Hell, look at the entire sex and sex adjacent, hostess clubs and the like, industry in Japan or sex work anywhere for that matter. Even in states in the US where pot is legal, it’s still mostly a cash only business because most credit card businesses refuse to work with dispensaries. In what version of the world we live in would it ever become okay to pay for an escort with ApplePay?
I fully realize I’m arguing for tax evasion, which is a shitty position to be in, but when access to a cashless society requires your work to be legal in the eyes of society, and society is getting pretty fucking regressive, what are you supposed to do? Just a couple months back there was a lot of (very good) advice about using only cash when doing anything at all related to abortion in America. Florida is making it okay to remove children from their parents’ custody for practicing any form of affirming gender care, would you feel safe buying anything to do with that using a credit card? And now you’ve got MTG shifting the Overton window by even announcing (doomed) legislation to ban porn, which will open that whole industry to attack and pushback.
And I know this is ranty as hell, but we’ve been living in a world that’s jumping into and through “oh, that would never happen” kind of hand waving like it’s an Olympic event. What insurance company wouldn’t love to see a record of the food you’ve bought as a way to gain leverage to deny claims? “Oh, this guy buys a bag of potato chips every week, we don’t need to cover his heart issues, he brought it on himself.” Sure, it sounds crazy, but so did losing Roe, or gender affirming care being criminalized.
But hey, I’m just a guy with fifteen years experience making sausage and bacon, yet unable to get licensed in my country of residence (I. Have. Tried.) to open a legitimate business, reduced to carrying meat in cooler bags (pulled pork, bacon, bbq sauce, smoked cheese, and coarse ground burger patties, for those curious) for word of mouth customers in order to make ends meet. I have a job that pays better than most, Mrs. Ghidorah works the hours she can as a dependent, but without this, we wouldn’t be able to pay the bills each month, yet from time to time, new members ask if they can use cashless, or if I can just ship the meat to them, and I get to explain all this all over again.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:12 PM on May 27, 2023 [62 favorites]
Funny coincidence. We were checking out at a supermarket a couple of days ago when the system went down. I try to keep $100 on me at all times and even though the card reader was down, we had already been rung up so I was able to hand the clerk a $50, get change and get the hell out.
Thoughts and prayers for the poor bastards behind us.
posted by mmrtnt at 8:26 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Thoughts and prayers for the poor bastards behind us.
posted by mmrtnt at 8:26 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
My objection to cash is that it may soon mean King Charles is in my pants. I just don't like that.
I gave my change to a child to keep her busy. I told her to give it to mom, she'll buy her a motorbike, or an ice cream. I am chaotic good. She asked me why the 2$ coin was smaller than the 1$ coin. I told her the size doesn't matter, it's how much money is in it. Then she asked me how they knew how much money to put in the coin.
I still can't think of an answer for that.
Anyway, the WSJ is a single-ply rag that comes pre-smeared ready for flushing.
posted by adept256 at 8:32 PM on May 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
I gave my change to a child to keep her busy. I told her to give it to mom, she'll buy her a motorbike, or an ice cream. I am chaotic good. She asked me why the 2$ coin was smaller than the 1$ coin. I told her the size doesn't matter, it's how much money is in it. Then she asked me how they knew how much money to put in the coin.
I still can't think of an answer for that.
Anyway, the WSJ is a single-ply rag that comes pre-smeared ready for flushing.
posted by adept256 at 8:32 PM on May 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
My objection to cash is that it may soon mean King Charles is in my pants. I just don't like that.
Don't ever move to the US. We have a whole raft of objectionable white men in our pants.
posted by hippybear at 8:36 PM on May 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
Don't ever move to the US. We have a whole raft of objectionable white men in our pants.
posted by hippybear at 8:36 PM on May 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
Might want to rethink pants
Believe me, I am way ahead of you on the Dreaded Tyranny of Pants.
posted by aramaic at 8:39 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Believe me, I am way ahead of you on the Dreaded Tyranny of Pants.
posted by aramaic at 8:39 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
I thought the tyranny was clothes without pockets, but proceed.
posted by hippybear at 8:43 PM on May 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:43 PM on May 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Only places I've been that refused cash . . .
Admittedly I live near Silicon Valley, but I've been in lots of places that don't accept cash at this point, and the only place not set up for a card I've been to in ages is a donut shop near me. (Upon consideration, farmers' market stands too, I suspect.)
I was a long time holdout w/r/t cash, but the combination of inflation over my adult life and the fact that many people no longer seem to remember how to make change efficiently have steered me away from it.
(Technically inflation shouldn't make a difference, but the cap for how much I will carry in wallet hasn't changed so if I try to use cash these days I'm going to the ATM way too often.)
posted by mark k at 8:47 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Admittedly I live near Silicon Valley, but I've been in lots of places that don't accept cash at this point, and the only place not set up for a card I've been to in ages is a donut shop near me. (Upon consideration, farmers' market stands too, I suspect.)
I was a long time holdout w/r/t cash, but the combination of inflation over my adult life and the fact that many people no longer seem to remember how to make change efficiently have steered me away from it.
(Technically inflation shouldn't make a difference, but the cap for how much I will carry in wallet hasn't changed so if I try to use cash these days I'm going to the ATM way too often.)
posted by mark k at 8:47 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
OTOH, cashless is great when traveling overseas. No running out of currency, no conversion scams, and some bank cards waive conversion fees.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:49 PM on May 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:49 PM on May 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
And: IME the business that push hard for cash are not doing it primarily to avoid credit card fees, they are doing it so they can lie about stuff on their taxes.
posted by mark k at 8:51 PM on May 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by mark k at 8:51 PM on May 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
JULES: Okay, so tell me about the banks.posted by logicpunk at 9:05 PM on May 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
VINCENT: Breaks down like this, okay: they charge you to take your cash, they charge you to hold on to your cash, and unless you use their designated automated services, they charge you to get your cash back. You can use cash if you carry it, but that doesn't really matter 'cause, get a load of this all right; if you stop at a cashless business, they don't have to take your cash. I mean, that's a right the consumers here don't have.
JULES: Oh, man, I'm leaving. I'm leaving, that's all there is to it. I'm fucking leaving.
VINCENT: Yeah, baby, you'd dig it the most. But you know what the funniest thing about banking is?
JULES: What?
VINCENT: It's the little differences. I mean, you can buy the same shit with your money in a bank that you can with cash, but it's just... it's just it's a little different.
JULES: Example?
VINCENT: All right. Well, you can walk into a store and buy a 58" TV on credit. And I don't mean like a Hitachi, I'm talking about a Samsung. And if you buy it at a business that has a financial relationship with your lending institution, you get some of that back. You know what they call that?
JULES: A discount?
VINCENT: Nah, man, they got a marketing division. They wouldn't call anything a discount.
JULES: What do they call it?
VINCENT: Bonus points.
JULES: "Bonus points."
VINCENT: That's right.
"Cash is universally accepted"
Oh boy you should see the comments on the National Parks social media accounts whenthey remind folks that some parts are cash-less.
"All debts, public and private! You have to take my cash!"
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:38 PM on May 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh boy you should see the comments on the National Parks social media accounts whenthey remind folks that some parts are cash-less.
"All debts, public and private! You have to take my cash!"
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 9:38 PM on May 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Heh. I believe it. Don't even get me started on the National Parks (I've wanted to do an angry post on recreation.gov for a long time.) But the thing about US National Parks is that while they may be cash only in some respects, or online reservations only (omg, I am probably a huge crank about that), they also tend to be extremely not online when you actually get there, and they are often surrounded by countryside where you also need cash. And you might need it in the park (for the bus, say, or the boat to some backcountry horse camp, or the concessionaire.)
Anyway, I'm not a cash-only crank, and you won't find me trying to pay for things with thousands of pennies, but even so, and even though I know there are exceptions such as some National Parks, and certain futuristic coffee shops in the ever-irritating Bay Area, I'd still say cash is universally accepted, certainly more than any other single payment method, though credit cards have made huge inroads (and cards are much easier to carry than cash).
posted by surlyben at 10:13 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I'm not a cash-only crank, and you won't find me trying to pay for things with thousands of pennies, but even so, and even though I know there are exceptions such as some National Parks, and certain futuristic coffee shops in the ever-irritating Bay Area, I'd still say cash is universally accepted, certainly more than any other single payment method, though credit cards have made huge inroads (and cards are much easier to carry than cash).
posted by surlyben at 10:13 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, also not considering online, which undermines my entire comment, now that I think of it.
posted by surlyben at 10:15 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by surlyben at 10:15 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
cashless society -- isn't that one of Satan's initiatives?
posted by philip-random at 10:18 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 10:18 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've never been anywhere that isn't a concert or sports arena or amusement park that refused cash.
It may be very region dependent. In downtown Toronto, I have seen more and more places that refuse to accept cash - and it does seem to be the kind of places that are looking to keep out poorer people. I don't even know if it's legal for them to refuse the cash, but they have signs to that effect.
posted by jb at 10:29 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
It may be very region dependent. In downtown Toronto, I have seen more and more places that refuse to accept cash - and it does seem to be the kind of places that are looking to keep out poorer people. I don't even know if it's legal for them to refuse the cash, but they have signs to that effect.
posted by jb at 10:29 PM on May 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
isn't that one of Satan's initiatives?
And what does it say?
No one shall be able to buy or sell without that mark
And now what they're planning to do
In order to eradicate all credit card fraud
And in order to precipitate a totally cashless society?
posted by aubilenon at 10:29 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
And what does it say?
No one shall be able to buy or sell without that mark
And now what they're planning to do
In order to eradicate all credit card fraud
And in order to precipitate a totally cashless society?
posted by aubilenon at 10:29 PM on May 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
However in Kenya I had trouble getting anyone to accept shillings, or even a card because they all wanted me to use apps I had never heard of.
Yeah, payment apps are popular in a lot of places. And one question is how those apps make money. Some of them actually charge recipients, and occasionally even payers, a few percentages - if the apps are bank affiliated, that often has to do with whether you have an account at the right bank or not - but that's usually described far in the fine print, and people seem largely unaware of it. The big ones I've had to use also completely eliminate privacy, such that whatever random person I'm paying now has my phone number and name by necessity (and of course the apps all want access to my phone book).
I dunno, I really don't like the idea of not even having the option to not be tracked, and of having to rely on lots of layers of tech infrastructure to work right at all times. Options are good, and edge cases matter, and no one ever foresees the once-in-a-whatever events where you actually need cash or a working lighthouse or whatever.
Being a luddite of any sort can often put you in crank-y company, which is frustrating, but then again being all "tech is nothing but a glorious future, no downsides here" puts you in some dubious company as well.
posted by trig at 10:50 PM on May 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yeah, payment apps are popular in a lot of places. And one question is how those apps make money. Some of them actually charge recipients, and occasionally even payers, a few percentages - if the apps are bank affiliated, that often has to do with whether you have an account at the right bank or not - but that's usually described far in the fine print, and people seem largely unaware of it. The big ones I've had to use also completely eliminate privacy, such that whatever random person I'm paying now has my phone number and name by necessity (and of course the apps all want access to my phone book).
I dunno, I really don't like the idea of not even having the option to not be tracked, and of having to rely on lots of layers of tech infrastructure to work right at all times. Options are good, and edge cases matter, and no one ever foresees the once-in-a-whatever events where you actually need cash or a working lighthouse or whatever.
Being a luddite of any sort can often put you in crank-y company, which is frustrating, but then again being all "tech is nothing but a glorious future, no downsides here" puts you in some dubious company as well.
posted by trig at 10:50 PM on May 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
the system they think they're fighting
"What's to be afraid of, if you've got nothing to hide?"
We all know how that one works out.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:11 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
"What's to be afraid of, if you've got nothing to hide?"
We all know how that one works out.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:11 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
I used to exclusively pay small local businesses in cash (except the cc only places) but then covid hit.
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:23 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:23 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can't argue against the convenience of going cashless, but in addition to the dearth of banking options for the poor down here, cash was essential in the days post-Hurricane Ian. Even as places slowly had their power restored, oftentimes their credit card & debit processing systems were glitchy, massively laggy, or most often completely inoperable. If you needed food, water, ice, gas for a generator, or any other essential, you needed to have cash on hand. If you needed to pay workers to apply emergency temp repairs to your home, tarp your roof, or chainsaw up & clear fallen trees, you needed cash. If you needed to rent a hotel room (assuming you could find one available) or fill the tank in your car (assuming you could find some), you needed cash on hand before they sold out of both. Even in the weeks afterward, cash still came in very handy for exchanging for goods with neighbors, picking up goods for neighbors when you were out shopping, and tipping FEMA and emergency personnel (tipping ice cold beer or water also helped).
At least we were lucky enough to have cash in the bank we could pull out days before Ian hit. The people just treading water paycheck-to-paycheck with available credit on cards were screwed when suddenly neither worked for up to a week in spots.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 12:13 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
At least we were lucky enough to have cash in the bank we could pull out days before Ian hit. The people just treading water paycheck-to-paycheck with available credit on cards were screwed when suddenly neither worked for up to a week in spots.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 12:13 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Credit card fees disproportionately impact small businesses and independent contractors running on tight margins.
This small business hates cash, and we refuse it in almost all circumstances. I’d gladly pay more than the ~2.6% plus $.30 my payments processor charges us if it meant no cash, since after time and hassle that’s cheaper anyway.
In fact, because of our hatred of cash, we had to reintroduce tipping. We tried no tipping, but when clients noticed they couldn’t add a tip via the payments terminal, they started bringing cash. No amount of “we raised of prices to reflect typical tipping amounts! No need to give us even more money in cash!” made a difference, so now tips are back, but at least they are via our payments terminal.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 12:38 AM on May 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
This small business hates cash, and we refuse it in almost all circumstances. I’d gladly pay more than the ~2.6% plus $.30 my payments processor charges us if it meant no cash, since after time and hassle that’s cheaper anyway.
In fact, because of our hatred of cash, we had to reintroduce tipping. We tried no tipping, but when clients noticed they couldn’t add a tip via the payments terminal, they started bringing cash. No amount of “we raised of prices to reflect typical tipping amounts! No need to give us even more money in cash!” made a difference, so now tips are back, but at least they are via our payments terminal.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 12:38 AM on May 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Since moving to Scotland I've embraced cashlessness, as Scottish pounds have a bad history of being accepted in England and I don't feel like changing currency when traveling domestically.
On the plus side, very little chance of having Charles in my wallet.
posted by Hactar at 1:15 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
On the plus side, very little chance of having Charles in my wallet.
posted by Hactar at 1:15 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is a fascinating thread for seeing other people's perspectives.
I have a, possibly mistaken, belief, that Australia has been somewhat ahead of other countries in tap & go payments, but obviously "cash is king" is still a saying you'll hear fairly regularly. Digital stuff is often suspect, and out of your control. Counterfeiting is pretty rare, in my experience. Cash in hand is real, whereas a transaction, even one that clears instantly, is theoretical.
More importantly though, cash is tax-free. Like, obviously not legally, but that's the perception I think a *lot* of people have. If someone says a shop is cash-only, it's practically code for, "obviously they're not really paying taxes", and often comes with an expectation of good value. This ranges from the belief that all tradespeople are con-men and criminals defrauding the government and us alike, to a general understanding that no-one diligently paying taxes can sell cigarettes for $20 a pack or vodka for $25 a bottle and make a profit. It's also totally connected in with a whole toxic sludge of ideas about immigrant businesses and lawfulness and expected pricing and who is allowed to charge a fair price for their goods.
The moral judgement associated varies by demographic, but like, cash-only is shorthand for tax evasion, in my head. The RBA says 27% of transactions are cash. I wonder how homeless people get by as more and more people just don't carry cash at all. In some spaces, having even moderate amounts of cash is a sign of drug use or dealing. It gives context to the dogpile I saw when a woman on twitter sided with the IRS. I think that most people I meet here, whether they think it's bad or not, assume that most small businesses that primarily take cash are doing it at least in part because it makes it far simpler to avoid paying taxes.
Perhaps this is related to how much simpler taxes are here for most? - for people working for any decently sized business, institution or government department, your employer reports your pay to the Australian Tax Organisation and your rough tax bill is calculated. Only people paid in cash have the *opportunity* to lie about their income, everyone else just has to mess around with deductions and tax breaks and investments.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:25 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have a, possibly mistaken, belief, that Australia has been somewhat ahead of other countries in tap & go payments, but obviously "cash is king" is still a saying you'll hear fairly regularly. Digital stuff is often suspect, and out of your control. Counterfeiting is pretty rare, in my experience. Cash in hand is real, whereas a transaction, even one that clears instantly, is theoretical.
More importantly though, cash is tax-free. Like, obviously not legally, but that's the perception I think a *lot* of people have. If someone says a shop is cash-only, it's practically code for, "obviously they're not really paying taxes", and often comes with an expectation of good value. This ranges from the belief that all tradespeople are con-men and criminals defrauding the government and us alike, to a general understanding that no-one diligently paying taxes can sell cigarettes for $20 a pack or vodka for $25 a bottle and make a profit. It's also totally connected in with a whole toxic sludge of ideas about immigrant businesses and lawfulness and expected pricing and who is allowed to charge a fair price for their goods.
The moral judgement associated varies by demographic, but like, cash-only is shorthand for tax evasion, in my head. The RBA says 27% of transactions are cash. I wonder how homeless people get by as more and more people just don't carry cash at all. In some spaces, having even moderate amounts of cash is a sign of drug use or dealing. It gives context to the dogpile I saw when a woman on twitter sided with the IRS. I think that most people I meet here, whether they think it's bad or not, assume that most small businesses that primarily take cash are doing it at least in part because it makes it far simpler to avoid paying taxes.
Perhaps this is related to how much simpler taxes are here for most? - for people working for any decently sized business, institution or government department, your employer reports your pay to the Australian Tax Organisation and your rough tax bill is calculated. Only people paid in cash have the *opportunity* to lie about their income, everyone else just has to mess around with deductions and tax breaks and investments.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:25 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the 90s (stateside) I tried to spread a rumor that the new fancy sublimated (not laminated) drivers' licenses had chips in them that read the security strips then showing up in higher denomination banknotes. So I would try to pay with handsful of Susan B Anthony dollar coins. These could be procured at the stamp vending machine at the post office by giving the machine a couple 20s before choosing the cheapest book of stamps. "See, the Susan Bs were produced in the 70s, before the technology now embedded in our money was developed," I'd explain to the sceptical manager the hapless cashier had to go round up.
Here in Sweden I haven't carried cash for years, and many places refuse to take it because deposit fees are extortionate. The problem being that they've swapped out all the banknotes like six or seven years ago and I have no idea what they look like, so would be an easy mark for someone trying to slip me counterfeit.
posted by St. Oops at 1:45 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here in Sweden I haven't carried cash for years, and many places refuse to take it because deposit fees are extortionate. The problem being that they've swapped out all the banknotes like six or seven years ago and I have no idea what they look like, so would be an easy mark for someone trying to slip me counterfeit.
posted by St. Oops at 1:45 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
When I lived in Canberra, Australia in 2009/2010, my real estate agent refused to accept rent in cash. The reason given was staff safety - they didn't want to become a target for armed robbery.
This meant that you could only pay rent
a) by using their third-party online payment service, which charged a $5 fee for each payment; or
b) by giving them a cheque each month (cheques are pretty much dead in Australia)
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:57 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
This meant that you could only pay rent
a) by using their third-party online payment service, which charged a $5 fee for each payment; or
b) by giving them a cheque each month (cheques are pretty much dead in Australia)
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:57 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here in the UK, "cash in hand" is very much used to mean that the taxman isn't getting involved. (In Denmark, "no receipt" does the same job, but also implies cash.)
More and more places in the UK don't accept cash. It bothers me that this is legal, given how far from universal banking access is here.
posted by Dysk at 2:00 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
More and more places in the UK don't accept cash. It bothers me that this is legal, given how far from universal banking access is here.
posted by Dysk at 2:00 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of the downsides of paying in cash is that you have to check if the cashier has given you the right change (mentally taxing, especially if you're tired or have a headache) while the cashier and the people behind you get grumpy that you're taking a few moments to count your change.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 2:00 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 2:00 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Let me add my 2 cents to this discussion. I was at Fotografiska in Stockholm, which wants to be a huge tourist attraction, but ... they don't accept cash.
I was buying my ticket (with my card) when the cashier pointed to a woman in the queue and asked if i could buy a ticket for her as well. She could not get in, because she only had cash. So I paid for two tickets with my card, gave one to her, and got cash in excange.
This made me wonder: as long as the national bank prints cash, is it legal to refuse it, if you run a business?
posted by Termite at 2:50 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was buying my ticket (with my card) when the cashier pointed to a woman in the queue and asked if i could buy a ticket for her as well. She could not get in, because she only had cash. So I paid for two tickets with my card, gave one to her, and got cash in excange.
This made me wonder: as long as the national bank prints cash, is it legal to refuse it, if you run a business?
posted by Termite at 2:50 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
A good question, Termite. Sweden is for all intents and purposes post-cash. A series of high profile armored car robberies (and one involving a counter center, a helicopter, and a gas-powered circular saw) led banks to introduce debilitating fees on cash use (and probably some government concern about tax evasion too, but I'm not aware of the particulars). The success of an online ID scheme coupled to mobile devises, and a popular peer-to-peer payment app have eliminated the need for cash in most day-to-day transactions, leaving cash mainly the domain of an increasingly small cohort of pensioners and, I guess, the criminal underworld.
posted by St. Oops at 3:14 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Oops at 3:14 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree with people upthread that it's good to have cash onhand for emergencies, though - during the massive 2019/2020 bushfires in Australia, electronic payment systems (credit cards, EFTPOS) went down in areas close to the firefronts (that's not a typo, there were many different firefronts)
which meant that people who needed to buy petrol so that they could drive their car to safety (away from the firefronts) either needed cash, or to rely on the petrol station trusting them to pay later.
More recently, when cyclones have hit the north west of Australia, credit card/EFTPOS payments have gone down for days to weeks, again making life difficult for people whose homes/possessions had been damaged/destroyed if they didn't have cash on hand.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 3:48 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
which meant that people who needed to buy petrol so that they could drive their car to safety (away from the firefronts) either needed cash, or to rely on the petrol station trusting them to pay later.
More recently, when cyclones have hit the north west of Australia, credit card/EFTPOS payments have gone down for days to weeks, again making life difficult for people whose homes/possessions had been damaged/destroyed if they didn't have cash on hand.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 3:48 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
One thing I am hoping will happen from people no longer routinely carrying cash, is an end to people aggressively/threateningly asking strangers for cash as you walk down the street. If no one is carrying cash, aggressive/threatening panhandling becomes much less profitable.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 3:50 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 3:50 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Here in the US, we maintain a system where gratuities (tips) are built-in to many employee’s pay structure. And, for the most part, cash is universal. Until the US boosts the minimum wage to a livable level for all, or establish a realistic UBI, eliminating cash will severely affect many low-wage workers here. Your hotel room housekeeper isn’t going to leave a Square on your pillow.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:34 AM on May 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 4:34 AM on May 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Cash is vitally important, and taking away the ability to use cash must absolutely be resisted.
If you disagree, I would like to hear the argument for forcing people to use their bank account when paying for an abortion.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:35 AM on May 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
If you disagree, I would like to hear the argument for forcing people to use their bank account when paying for an abortion.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:35 AM on May 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
The UK is increasingly cashless overall. With the notable exception of barbers, which I think are universally cash only.
However the conspiracy theory newspaper that I pick up in the chip shop (I promise that's a real thing) is very much opposed to the decline of cash.
In the UK this is often met with a cry of "But it's legal tender". However legal tender simply means that if you owe a debt it can be discharged by offering payment in that form (it also extends to stuff like Gold Sovereigns). Legal tender doesn't mean "must be accepted as payment for services".
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:56 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
However the conspiracy theory newspaper that I pick up in the chip shop (I promise that's a real thing) is very much opposed to the decline of cash.
In the UK this is often met with a cry of "But it's legal tender". However legal tender simply means that if you owe a debt it can be discharged by offering payment in that form (it also extends to stuff like Gold Sovereigns). Legal tender doesn't mean "must be accepted as payment for services".
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:56 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
. Even in states in the US where pot is legal, it’s still mostly a cash only business because most credit card businesses refuse to work with dispensaries.
This is not why...it's because cannabis is still illegal at the federal level.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:08 AM on May 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is not why...it's because cannabis is still illegal at the federal level.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:08 AM on May 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
In New England, I have been seeing more small businesses tack on a fee of 3% if I use a credit card. They don't mention it, either, until after it's rung up, which feels dishonest.
And the giant Gillette Stadium, where the Patriots play football, is no-cash. My daughter went to see a concert there last week and we had to ask her friend's mom to cover her purchases because my 15-year-old doesn't have a credit card. *eyeroll*
posted by wenestvedt at 6:26 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
And the giant Gillette Stadium, where the Patriots play football, is no-cash. My daughter went to see a concert there last week and we had to ask her friend's mom to cover her purchases because my 15-year-old doesn't have a credit card. *eyeroll*
posted by wenestvedt at 6:26 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
As someone who has spent the last month trying to explain how the Ministry of Defense of Spain can pay the Department of Defense of the US via international wire, I would be much happier if they had just paid me to fly to Madrid and pick up the check. What the end-user doesn't realize is how complicated the systems to that allow cashless systems to work really are.
posted by gwydapllew at 6:28 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by gwydapllew at 6:28 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Since moving to Scotland I've embraced cashlessness, as Scottish pounds have a bad history of being accepted in England and I don't feel like changing currency when traveling domestically.
When I did a semester abroad in London about 20 years ago, I traveled to Glasgow and came back to England with a Scottish £1 note. Went to Tesco for milk, paid with my Scottish £1 note, and got like £4.30 back in change.
They had mistaken the £1 note for a £5 note, because the Bank of England didn’t (and doesn’t) print £1 notes.
I was a poor college student, so of course I didn’t say anything and took my Ill-gotten gains home.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:28 AM on May 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
When I did a semester abroad in London about 20 years ago, I traveled to Glasgow and came back to England with a Scottish £1 note. Went to Tesco for milk, paid with my Scottish £1 note, and got like £4.30 back in change.
They had mistaken the £1 note for a £5 note, because the Bank of England didn’t (and doesn’t) print £1 notes.
I was a poor college student, so of course I didn’t say anything and took my Ill-gotten gains home.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:28 AM on May 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Doesn't the cashless system completely screw people with no access to a bank account?
posted by M. at 6:35 AM on May 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by M. at 6:35 AM on May 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yes.
posted by trig at 6:47 AM on May 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by trig at 6:47 AM on May 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
What I want to know is how all the people in cashless/card only countries avoid getting hacked? Are systems more secure in Scandinavia? Also as someone who travels a lot in less secure places, getting a replacement card means they send it to your home address. Not so useful.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:47 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 6:47 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
We have some places around here, a few burger joints and my barber to name a few, who ONLY take cash. I'm sure this is jointly to avoid service fees and maybe to hide transactions.
Here, there are an increasing number of places that refuse cash because of armed robberies during business hours and break-ins at night. They typically put up prominent "no cash" signs on the doors as a signal.
In contrast, where I was living previously a large portion of the bars were cash-only. Personally I hated it, having to dig out cash for each round is one of those small but annoying things, but it is just considered a normal thing there and if you are going out, you carry cash. I'm certain it is basically a business calculation of whether the tax fraud can exceed the additional theft risk.
Or think about the legal marijuana businesses in many states which don't have access to banking or cc processing because their business is considered illegal under Federal law. They are cash only, and in some areas they are targets for robbery or their couriers are on the way to deal with the cash.
Where I used to live, weed stores were universally cash-only. Here, at least some of them accept cards, interestingly. I'm not sure how they are doing it since my understanding previously was that banks were refusing to deal with them, but there must be work-arounds.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here, there are an increasing number of places that refuse cash because of armed robberies during business hours and break-ins at night. They typically put up prominent "no cash" signs on the doors as a signal.
In contrast, where I was living previously a large portion of the bars were cash-only. Personally I hated it, having to dig out cash for each round is one of those small but annoying things, but it is just considered a normal thing there and if you are going out, you carry cash. I'm certain it is basically a business calculation of whether the tax fraud can exceed the additional theft risk.
Or think about the legal marijuana businesses in many states which don't have access to banking or cc processing because their business is considered illegal under Federal law. They are cash only, and in some areas they are targets for robbery or their couriers are on the way to deal with the cash.
Where I used to live, weed stores were universally cash-only. Here, at least some of them accept cards, interestingly. I'm not sure how they are doing it since my understanding previously was that banks were refusing to deal with them, but there must be work-arounds.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
You - yes YOU - know someone who has, or will have, to survive on the margins of society, perhaps doing sex work or selling drugs, and who needs cash. You know someone who is othered as the enemy of the state and needs cash. I keep deleting bits of this because I’m so angry that I’m worried someone will flag my comment, but where is your joined up thinking? They are criminalising being queer and trans in Florida, and you want to point and laugh at people who say cash is important for liberty? What happens when the bank accounts get closed for the company that makes the protest stickers you put on lampposts? What happens when social credit comes into full force under a DeSantis clone? Good grief, don’t get rid of cash.
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 6:58 AM on May 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 6:58 AM on May 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
Doesn't the cashless system completely screw people with no access to a bank account?
Yes.
A little while back I sold some stuff on craigslist to cover my electric bill. So I had the cash to cover the bill but no way to pay it. My local branch office was closed during covid and the nearest one would have been a 70+ mile bike trip. Instead I took a 20 mile bike trip to Wal-Mart, paid them a fee to add the cash to my PayPal account and use that to pay my utility.
The joys of being unemployed and broke.
posted by Tenuki at 7:04 AM on May 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yes.
A little while back I sold some stuff on craigslist to cover my electric bill. So I had the cash to cover the bill but no way to pay it. My local branch office was closed during covid and the nearest one would have been a 70+ mile bike trip. Instead I took a 20 mile bike trip to Wal-Mart, paid them a fee to add the cash to my PayPal account and use that to pay my utility.
The joys of being unemployed and broke.
posted by Tenuki at 7:04 AM on May 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
I can’t think off-hand of anyplace that I frequent that doesn’t accept cash, but the only cash-only place left I go to is my barber. So I only need cash for my barber, the church collection basket, and my kids’ allowance.
I rarely carry cash, and don’t miss the stuff. The Interac payment system in Canada makes cashless payments easy. But I wouldn’t want to see the complete disappearance of cash.
I often wonder about the panhandlers. We live in a city, and my wife always carries change to hand out. She is also still firmly in the camp of not being comfortable paying with a card for small purchases.
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:17 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I rarely carry cash, and don’t miss the stuff. The Interac payment system in Canada makes cashless payments easy. But I wouldn’t want to see the complete disappearance of cash.
I often wonder about the panhandlers. We live in a city, and my wife always carries change to hand out. She is also still firmly in the camp of not being comfortable paying with a card for small purchases.
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:17 AM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
One of the downsides of paying in cash is that you have to check if the cashier has given you the right change (mentally taxing, especially if you're tired or have a headache) while the cashier and the people behind you get grumpy that you're taking a few moments to count your change.
I find that paying with cash is immensely faster. Sometimes I need to fumble with my wallet a bit, but that’s nothing compared to the person who has to load up their card to finish a purchase. Some sort of universal app would solve this for a lot of people, but in the US, every vendor wants access to your sweet data, so *shrug*.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:23 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I find that paying with cash is immensely faster. Sometimes I need to fumble with my wallet a bit, but that’s nothing compared to the person who has to load up their card to finish a purchase. Some sort of universal app would solve this for a lot of people, but in the US, every vendor wants access to your sweet data, so *shrug*.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:23 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, I have weird balances on a bunch of cards, because I specifically don't want to link them up to my real bank account or credit card.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:58 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 7:58 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
There seem to be three separate geographical locations under discussion:
North America, which has a lot of small banks that don’t work together very well, where cashless systems are poorly accepted
Europe, which has strongly unified its banking system and regulations, where cashless systems are very well accepted
China (and Kenya) where a third (non-state) party has taken control of cashless payment using an app
I think there’s a huge amount of legislative will around how much cashlessness a society would accept. The concepts of WeChat seem alien to how things are done in Europe, but they might be similar to any number of ways that American money apps work. If anybody has any links about official policies I would be interested to read them
posted by The River Ivel at 8:05 AM on May 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
North America, which has a lot of small banks that don’t work together very well, where cashless systems are poorly accepted
Europe, which has strongly unified its banking system and regulations, where cashless systems are very well accepted
China (and Kenya) where a third (non-state) party has taken control of cashless payment using an app
I think there’s a huge amount of legislative will around how much cashlessness a society would accept. The concepts of WeChat seem alien to how things are done in Europe, but they might be similar to any number of ways that American money apps work. If anybody has any links about official policies I would be interested to read them
posted by The River Ivel at 8:05 AM on May 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Whenever I think about a cashless society, I think about this travel blogger whose accounts were frozen due to suspicious activity, and thus had to leave his wife on a sailboat in Ecuador and fly home to Dallas to verify his identity with a Chase bank branch. For a person with fewer resources (or with just a few more bad die rolls) this would be more than a minor inconvenience.
posted by credulous at 8:07 AM on May 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by credulous at 8:07 AM on May 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
There seem to be three separate geographical locations under discussion:
North America, which has a lot of small banks that don’t work together very well, where cashless systems are poorly accepted
Don’t lump Canada and the US together. Canada has a highly integrated banking system dominated by major players and a universal Interac cashless payment system. It is getting rare to see people use cash here anymore.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:17 AM on May 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
North America, which has a lot of small banks that don’t work together very well, where cashless systems are poorly accepted
Don’t lump Canada and the US together. Canada has a highly integrated banking system dominated by major players and a universal Interac cashless payment system. It is getting rare to see people use cash here anymore.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:17 AM on May 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
(North America)
Earlier this year, I won $100 on a scratch off and cashed it in at a grocery store where they gave me a $100 bill. I carried it around for months because I had no place to spend it. Most of my purchases of that size are joint with my husband and we put all those through a rewards card. I thought about depositing it and taking out $20s but just never got around to it. Years ago I was trying to buy lunch at Subway and had to go back to my desk because all I had was a $50 and they don't take those.
The only restaurant in my new office building doesn't take any cash. I went there on my first day to buy a soda and again I had to go back to my desk to get my wallet because I had only brought a $5 or $10. I carry cash for a few reasons and saving small business card fees - for them or for me - is one of them. There used to be a small store there but it closed before we moved in, so that is the only source of beverages in the building. Until the rest of the company moves in, we're in a weird limbo space.
posted by soelo at 8:29 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Earlier this year, I won $100 on a scratch off and cashed it in at a grocery store where they gave me a $100 bill. I carried it around for months because I had no place to spend it. Most of my purchases of that size are joint with my husband and we put all those through a rewards card. I thought about depositing it and taking out $20s but just never got around to it. Years ago I was trying to buy lunch at Subway and had to go back to my desk because all I had was a $50 and they don't take those.
The only restaurant in my new office building doesn't take any cash. I went there on my first day to buy a soda and again I had to go back to my desk to get my wallet because I had only brought a $5 or $10. I carry cash for a few reasons and saving small business card fees - for them or for me - is one of them. There used to be a small store there but it closed before we moved in, so that is the only source of beverages in the building. Until the rest of the company moves in, we're in a weird limbo space.
posted by soelo at 8:29 AM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Netherlands is pretty cashless at this point. One issue when visiting is that most US chip credit cards still don’t work so going to some smaller shops is basically impossible. Maybe they’ve changed things but last time I was there you couldn’t use a US credit card to buy a train/bus ticket (though some machines took coins) so you’d have to stand in line to buy a ticket from one of the few ticket windows where they sold international tickets etc. Isn’t surprising as the Dutch are really quick at adapting to monetary things. I lived in Amsterdam when the Euro went into effect it the transition was pretty much instantaneous whereas in countries like Italy they went slowly and reluctantly.
Mainly I miss having a Dutch bank account where I could just “chippen” for everything.
posted by misterpatrick at 8:40 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mainly I miss having a Dutch bank account where I could just “chippen” for everything.
posted by misterpatrick at 8:40 AM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Doesn't the cashless system completely screw people with no access to a bank account?
And in countries where apps predominate you're also screwed if you don't have a phone, with internet access, that is charged (and sufficiently not-old to run the apps). And you'd better be able to read the screen, and understand the interfaces and the languages they're in, and not be too disabled to use the phone in the first place.
China (and Kenya) where a third (non-state) party has taken control of cashless payment using an app
Not sure about Kenya but "non-state" doesn't mean the same thing in China as in other countries. Also the payment apps I've personally encountered (for clarity, in neither China nor Kenya - payment apps are a big thing in many countries) are tied to or outright developed by one bank or another.
posted by trig at 9:20 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
And in countries where apps predominate you're also screwed if you don't have a phone, with internet access, that is charged (and sufficiently not-old to run the apps). And you'd better be able to read the screen, and understand the interfaces and the languages they're in, and not be too disabled to use the phone in the first place.
China (and Kenya) where a third (non-state) party has taken control of cashless payment using an app
Not sure about Kenya but "non-state" doesn't mean the same thing in China as in other countries. Also the payment apps I've personally encountered (for clarity, in neither China nor Kenya - payment apps are a big thing in many countries) are tied to or outright developed by one bank or another.
posted by trig at 9:20 AM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
does anyone seriously trust their govt and/or bankers and/or tech masters that much? Apparently, yes. If the alternative is inconvenience.
This issue does indeed make for some strange bedfellows.
MARK OF THE BEAST? How China's Cashless Society Points to End Times Prophecy
cued to 1:11 point. That's gotta mean something ...
posted by philip-random at 9:31 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
This issue does indeed make for some strange bedfellows.
MARK OF THE BEAST? How China's Cashless Society Points to End Times Prophecy
cued to 1:11 point. That's gotta mean something ...
posted by philip-random at 9:31 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here's the thing.
You can make all the arguments for cash you want, people might even agree with you. But that means exactly nothing in terms of how people will behave.
People go for convenience. Every time. Always. Cash is inconvenient, electronic payment (of whatever variety) is convenient, therefore people will go for electronic payment.
People as a whole are really terrible about actually following through with their ideological beliefs when there's the tiniest inconvenience or unsatisfied desire. Look at the cycle of gamers decrying [insert any major game company here] for [being evil, lying about content, whatever] and declaring that they totally won't buy game X. And then game X sells better than anyone expected.
Look at all the people who, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, were swearing they hated all that big brother surveillance stuff and who now allow their phones to track their location in realtime, have PAID to have a megacorp spy microphone (and increasingly often camera) in their homes.
I'm not 100% sure I agree that there even is a problem with going cashless, but if I did I'd say that the single least effective way of addressing that problem is urging people to use cash more. Because they won't. Ever. Just abandon that fantasy, it isn't going to happen.
Any actual solution to the problems you think exist with electronic payments is going to have to involve fixing those problems while continuing to have electronic payments and the convenience that comes with them.
I work in IT. Security and convenience aren't exactly mutually exclusive, but they're pretty close to it. More security generally equals less convenience. And even with full management buy in and backing it is an absolute fucking nightmare getting people to accept that yes, they are required to use MFA because that tiny little inconvenience has most users in open rebellion.
I have had more users arguing with me about that than I have had users argue with me about anything else ever in my entire history of being in IT. Because it's a step backwards from a convenience standpoint. Now they not only have to memorize (ha, yeah right, they write it down like they aren't supposed to) a password they ALSO have to go through a few seconds of bullshit with their phones and they fucking hate it.
If I can't get users to cheerfully accept MFA without argument, you aren't getting citizens to give up electronic payments.
As with MFA, the actual solution to the problems seen with current electronic payments, is to fix that problem and make the end result more convenient.
posted by sotonohito at 10:17 AM on May 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
You can make all the arguments for cash you want, people might even agree with you. But that means exactly nothing in terms of how people will behave.
People go for convenience. Every time. Always. Cash is inconvenient, electronic payment (of whatever variety) is convenient, therefore people will go for electronic payment.
People as a whole are really terrible about actually following through with their ideological beliefs when there's the tiniest inconvenience or unsatisfied desire. Look at the cycle of gamers decrying [insert any major game company here] for [being evil, lying about content, whatever] and declaring that they totally won't buy game X. And then game X sells better than anyone expected.
Look at all the people who, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, were swearing they hated all that big brother surveillance stuff and who now allow their phones to track their location in realtime, have PAID to have a megacorp spy microphone (and increasingly often camera) in their homes.
I'm not 100% sure I agree that there even is a problem with going cashless, but if I did I'd say that the single least effective way of addressing that problem is urging people to use cash more. Because they won't. Ever. Just abandon that fantasy, it isn't going to happen.
Any actual solution to the problems you think exist with electronic payments is going to have to involve fixing those problems while continuing to have electronic payments and the convenience that comes with them.
I work in IT. Security and convenience aren't exactly mutually exclusive, but they're pretty close to it. More security generally equals less convenience. And even with full management buy in and backing it is an absolute fucking nightmare getting people to accept that yes, they are required to use MFA because that tiny little inconvenience has most users in open rebellion.
I have had more users arguing with me about that than I have had users argue with me about anything else ever in my entire history of being in IT. Because it's a step backwards from a convenience standpoint. Now they not only have to memorize (ha, yeah right, they write it down like they aren't supposed to) a password they ALSO have to go through a few seconds of bullshit with their phones and they fucking hate it.
If I can't get users to cheerfully accept MFA without argument, you aren't getting citizens to give up electronic payments.
As with MFA, the actual solution to the problems seen with current electronic payments, is to fix that problem and make the end result more convenient.
posted by sotonohito at 10:17 AM on May 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
One thing I am hoping will happen from people no longer routinely carrying cash, is an end to people aggressively/threateningly asking strangers for cash as you walk down the street.
The ability to provide some small help to people going through desperate circumstances. I understand that the system which provides me with a steady paycheck is the same system that keeps them miserable and/or addicted to whatever their attempting to use for self-medication.
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:33 AM on May 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
The ability to provide some small help to people going through desperate circumstances. I understand that the system which provides me with a steady paycheck is the same system that keeps them miserable and/or addicted to whatever their attempting to use for self-medication.
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:33 AM on May 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
DC has a ton of businesses that don’t except cash. It’s definitely worse for the unbanked.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:41 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by aspersioncast at 11:41 AM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
People go for convenience. Every time. Always. Cash is inconvenient, electronic payment (of whatever variety) is convenient, therefore people will go for electronic payment.
It often isn't though. Not for everyone, not everywhere, not all the time. Also, sometimes the inconvenience of cash is manufactured.
The real convenience is having options.
posted by trig at 12:50 PM on May 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
It often isn't though. Not for everyone, not everywhere, not all the time. Also, sometimes the inconvenience of cash is manufactured.
The real convenience is having options.
posted by trig at 12:50 PM on May 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
However in Kenya I had trouble getting anyone to accept shillings, or even a card because they all wanted me to use apps I had never heard of.
I currently live in Sweden, which is very much at the forefront of cashless societies, and I can't help but wonder about that. How are foreigners and visitors supposed to navigate this? Someone visiting for a few weeks isn't going to have access to Swish (or whatever your preferred payment app is). Heck, someone immigrating is going to have the same issue - getting a Swedish bank account as a foreigner is a HUGE PITA, often taking upwards of a year. Yes, credit cards and Apple/Google Pay are widely accepted in Europe, but that isn't the case in many parts of the world.
The ironic thing is when I point this out to my Swedish colleagues I just get a puzzled look, as though it's inconceivable anyone could NOT have Swish. I strongly suspect other countries at the forefront of cashlessness have the same mindset.
Don't get me wrong, I love the convenience of only carrying a phone but at least cash didn't have these sort of problems.
posted by photo guy at 12:54 PM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I currently live in Sweden, which is very much at the forefront of cashless societies, and I can't help but wonder about that. How are foreigners and visitors supposed to navigate this? Someone visiting for a few weeks isn't going to have access to Swish (or whatever your preferred payment app is). Heck, someone immigrating is going to have the same issue - getting a Swedish bank account as a foreigner is a HUGE PITA, often taking upwards of a year. Yes, credit cards and Apple/Google Pay are widely accepted in Europe, but that isn't the case in many parts of the world.
The ironic thing is when I point this out to my Swedish colleagues I just get a puzzled look, as though it's inconceivable anyone could NOT have Swish. I strongly suspect other countries at the forefront of cashlessness have the same mindset.
Don't get me wrong, I love the convenience of only carrying a phone but at least cash didn't have these sort of problems.
posted by photo guy at 12:54 PM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Where I used to live, weed stores were universally cash-only. Here, at least some of them accept cards, interestingly. I'm not sure how they are doing it since my understanding previously was that banks were refusing to deal with them, but there must be work-arounds.
For a while the workaround was that the store operated a "cashless ATM" behind the counter, but the payment processors have been cracking down on those for a while. There are some alternatives, mostly using ACH transfers.
posted by jedicus at 2:48 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
For a while the workaround was that the store operated a "cashless ATM" behind the counter, but the payment processors have been cracking down on those for a while. There are some alternatives, mostly using ACH transfers.
posted by jedicus at 2:48 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dunno about the States but in Canada a significant portion of home renos and small contracting is done with cash; partly I'm sure to allow tradespeople to make some money under the table, and partly because of the ad hoc nature of small construction jobs.
Sometimes having cash means your work gets done sooner, when contractors suddenly have a free couple of days. You want it with receipts, fine, we'll schedule you for two months from now. You got the cash now? Hey, we can fit you in next week.
posted by Hardcore Poser at 2:56 PM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sometimes having cash means your work gets done sooner, when contractors suddenly have a free couple of days. You want it with receipts, fine, we'll schedule you for two months from now. You got the cash now? Hey, we can fit you in next week.
posted by Hardcore Poser at 2:56 PM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of the downsides of paying in cash is that you have to check if the cashier has given you the right change (mentally taxing, especially if you're tired or have a headache) while the cashier and the people behind you get grumpy that you're taking a few moments to count your change.
One of the downsides of people being pushed towards apps for cashless payments is when you’re in line behind someone who waited until their whole purchase has been rung up to begin digging their phone out of their pocket or bag, and start fumbling through opening their app and getting it work.
The whole, it’s not a problem for me, I know how to do it argument misses out on the fact that VCRs ended up becoming obsolete before most people ever figured out how to set the clock on the damn things.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:06 PM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of the downsides of people being pushed towards apps for cashless payments is when you’re in line behind someone who waited until their whole purchase has been rung up to begin digging their phone out of their pocket or bag, and start fumbling through opening their app and getting it work.
The whole, it’s not a problem for me, I know how to do it argument misses out on the fact that VCRs ended up becoming obsolete before most people ever figured out how to set the clock on the damn things.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:06 PM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm sure once we implant an RFID tag in everyone's right hand so they can pay just by putting their hand against a reader it'll be so successful that no one will accept any other form of payment and then no one will be able to buy or sell without it. Probably you'd want a backup, maybe in the form of a QR code on your forehead in ink only visible in ultraviolet. A sort of... mark you might say.
posted by sotonohito at 4:16 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sotonohito at 4:16 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Alternatively, facial recognition systems will be truly ubiquitous, and RFID tags will be obsolete.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:37 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:37 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Remind me again how that MFA works when you’ve swapped out SIM cards when you’re traveling? Because my local bank doesn’t know.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 5:59 PM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 5:59 PM on May 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Credit card fees disproportionately impact small businesses and independent contractors running on tight margins. It’s a kindness to pay and tip in cash when you can.
The fees add up to over $3000 a year for my music store.
posted by boilermonster at 6:36 PM on May 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
The fees add up to over $3000 a year for my music store.
posted by boilermonster at 6:36 PM on May 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
OTOH, cashless is great when traveling overseas. No running out of currency, no conversion scams, and some bank cards waive conversion fees.
There’s an interesting newish scam where when you go to an ATM or use a credit card at a store and a screen asks you if you want to pay in your home country’s currency or local currency. If you choose to pay in your home currency the processor on that end exchanges at a really horrible rate (and maybe also your own card tacks on, I don’t know). Anyway, always pay in the currency you are in and let your (presumably better) card make the exchange.
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:03 PM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
There’s an interesting newish scam where when you go to an ATM or use a credit card at a store and a screen asks you if you want to pay in your home country’s currency or local currency. If you choose to pay in your home currency the processor on that end exchanges at a really horrible rate (and maybe also your own card tacks on, I don’t know). Anyway, always pay in the currency you are in and let your (presumably better) card make the exchange.
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:03 PM on May 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
The fees add up to over $3000 a year for my music store
For my escape room, nearly all of our transactions are by CC (booked in advance online) so fees are pretty much straight up 3% of our gross revenue. I don't know if it even matters how well a business is doing, that's significant at any scale. Square says when we do enough business they might lower our fees, but when we reached that threshold they said "no, due to reasons". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by aubilenon at 8:25 PM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
For my escape room, nearly all of our transactions are by CC (booked in advance online) so fees are pretty much straight up 3% of our gross revenue. I don't know if it even matters how well a business is doing, that's significant at any scale. Square says when we do enough business they might lower our fees, but when we reached that threshold they said "no, due to reasons". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by aubilenon at 8:25 PM on May 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
That said, cash is a hassle, even though we've never been robbed, and have never had an employee stealing it, and while I wish the fee was lower for CC, I would rather customers pay with CC than cash.
posted by aubilenon at 8:29 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by aubilenon at 8:29 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dunno about the States but in Canada a significant portion of home renos and small contracting is done with cash
I'm in California and such are always paid cash. I suppose those guys would accept a check if they knew you well enough; but I prefer cash. In fact, I love cash, especially coins, and will be very sad if it's taken away. There's an old adage, "Cash Makes No Enemies" (which is actually about tips and baksheesh).
posted by Rash at 8:48 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm in California and such are always paid cash. I suppose those guys would accept a check if they knew you well enough; but I prefer cash. In fact, I love cash, especially coins, and will be very sad if it's taken away. There's an old adage, "Cash Makes No Enemies" (which is actually about tips and baksheesh).
posted by Rash at 8:48 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
How are foreigners and visitors supposed to navigate this?
They’re not supposed to navigate it, they’re supposed to stay safely away lest everywhere end up like Malmö (shudder).
[abolish borders!]
posted by aramaic at 9:02 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
They’re not supposed to navigate it, they’re supposed to stay safely away lest everywhere end up like Malmö (shudder).
[abolish borders!]
posted by aramaic at 9:02 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dunno about the States but in Canada a significant portion of home renos and small contracting is done with cash; partly I'm sure to allow tradespeople to make some money under the table, and partly because of the ad hoc nature of small construction jobs.
Our landlord was telling us to be careful near the local bank because he had gotten robbed there.
The contractor wanted a cash payment for his new laneway house construction and needed the money that day, and when he came out of the bank he got robbed at his car for $60,000.
Landlord would not believe me when I said I am pretty sure those contractors are connected to the robbers. That guy was so stupid, made me want to rob him too.
posted by Iax at 9:30 PM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Our landlord was telling us to be careful near the local bank because he had gotten robbed there.
The contractor wanted a cash payment for his new laneway house construction and needed the money that day, and when he came out of the bank he got robbed at his car for $60,000.
Landlord would not believe me when I said I am pretty sure those contractors are connected to the robbers. That guy was so stupid, made me want to rob him too.
posted by Iax at 9:30 PM on May 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Count me as one of those totally opposed to a fully cashless society.
For a variety of reasons, including the very real practical issue of how to continue functioning in an economy when the cashless electronic system goes down one way or another, which it inevitably will some times, as happened here a while back after widespread devastating bushfires left many without access to funds for an extended period.
But mostly because tyrants would love nothing more than knowing where you spend every penny.
Cash is one of the very few genuine safeguards of freedom we have left in this age of increasing techno-surveillance. Lose it at your peril.
posted by Pouteria at 9:43 PM on May 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
For a variety of reasons, including the very real practical issue of how to continue functioning in an economy when the cashless electronic system goes down one way or another, which it inevitably will some times, as happened here a while back after widespread devastating bushfires left many without access to funds for an extended period.
But mostly because tyrants would love nothing more than knowing where you spend every penny.
Cash is one of the very few genuine safeguards of freedom we have left in this age of increasing techno-surveillance. Lose it at your peril.
posted by Pouteria at 9:43 PM on May 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
They’re not supposed to navigate it, they’re supposed to stay safely away lest everywhere end up like Malmö (shudder).
Oh I know it, not to get on a derail but that seems to be the case with many things (just ask any foreigner about getting a personnummer). Doesn't help that the banks seem paranoid of doing business with any non-Swede no matter the nationality, even from other EU countries.
Unfortunately this is not limited to Scandinavia. China supposedly has a similar issue with Alipay and Wechat and I'm sure other countries are not far behind.
posted by photo guy at 12:00 AM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh I know it, not to get on a derail but that seems to be the case with many things (just ask any foreigner about getting a personnummer). Doesn't help that the banks seem paranoid of doing business with any non-Swede no matter the nationality, even from other EU countries.
Unfortunately this is not limited to Scandinavia. China supposedly has a similar issue with Alipay and Wechat and I'm sure other countries are not far behind.
posted by photo guy at 12:00 AM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
how to continue functioning in an economy when the cashless electronic system goes down one way or another
One of my fond memories of the early push in Japan (fall 2020) for cashless payments was during an evening news broadcast. Break for commercial, two or three ads featuring cashless, back from the break, the weather forecaster talks about how the incoming typhoon has the potential to cause massive power outages, and to make sure to stock up on necessities, and oh yeah, make sure to have cash on hand, as cashless payments won’t work if there’s no electricity. Then, commercial break, spate of commercials extolling the virtues of cashless payments.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:46 AM on May 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
One of my fond memories of the early push in Japan (fall 2020) for cashless payments was during an evening news broadcast. Break for commercial, two or three ads featuring cashless, back from the break, the weather forecaster talks about how the incoming typhoon has the potential to cause massive power outages, and to make sure to stock up on necessities, and oh yeah, make sure to have cash on hand, as cashless payments won’t work if there’s no electricity. Then, commercial break, spate of commercials extolling the virtues of cashless payments.
posted by Ghidorah at 12:46 AM on May 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Dunno about the States but in Canada a significant portion of home renos and small contracting is done with cash; partly I'm sure to allow tradespeople to make some money under the table, and partly because of the ad hoc nature of small construction jobs.
Forget ad hoc, it’s straight up tax evasion, always. This is a huge problem in that industry, from business owners to employees so much tax evasion.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:20 AM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Forget ad hoc, it’s straight up tax evasion, always. This is a huge problem in that industry, from business owners to employees so much tax evasion.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:20 AM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
~Dunno about the States but in Canada a significant portion of home renos and small contracting is done with cash
~I'm in California and such are always paid cash.
Renovation, and home construction in general, relies heavily on subcontractors who, in turn, make heavy use of loosely-organized teams of workers. It’s not uncommon for some of those teams to include undocumented workers, unbanked workers, and others who, for one reason or another, need/want/have to have as small a paper trail as possible. Cash workers.
For instance, those teams that descend on your neighbor’s house and completely re-roof it in a day? I can all but guarantee you they are cash workers. Same with a ton of drywall crews. Largely, any subcontracting job that is highly-portable/mobile and doesn’t require any shop work or milling will consist of these work crews. Even housing subdivisions, where the homes are standardized on three or four layouts, will be relying on these crews for most of the construction. Lots of cash-only workers.
Drive by your local Lowes, Home Depot, etc. early in the morning before they open, and you’ll see individuals milling-about, trying to land their team a job for the day with a subcontractor. I can’t imagine how this industry could go cashless any time in the near future, without putting an enormous number of people out of work.
And, let’s not forget migrant farm labor.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:36 AM on May 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
~I'm in California and such are always paid cash.
Renovation, and home construction in general, relies heavily on subcontractors who, in turn, make heavy use of loosely-organized teams of workers. It’s not uncommon for some of those teams to include undocumented workers, unbanked workers, and others who, for one reason or another, need/want/have to have as small a paper trail as possible. Cash workers.
For instance, those teams that descend on your neighbor’s house and completely re-roof it in a day? I can all but guarantee you they are cash workers. Same with a ton of drywall crews. Largely, any subcontracting job that is highly-portable/mobile and doesn’t require any shop work or milling will consist of these work crews. Even housing subdivisions, where the homes are standardized on three or four layouts, will be relying on these crews for most of the construction. Lots of cash-only workers.
Drive by your local Lowes, Home Depot, etc. early in the morning before they open, and you’ll see individuals milling-about, trying to land their team a job for the day with a subcontractor. I can’t imagine how this industry could go cashless any time in the near future, without putting an enormous number of people out of work.
And, let’s not forget migrant farm labor.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:36 AM on May 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
My contractors have almost all only accepted eTransfer (a Canadian thing — basically Interac online) or cheque. But they also provided itemized estimates and receipts.
posted by fimbulvetr at 5:19 AM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fimbulvetr at 5:19 AM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thorzdad, I believe the American and Canadian contexts are different, and I'm gonna talk about how it works in the Canadian context, and more precisely in the province of Quebec since this is a system I know.
Basically all workers in trades operating in the construction industry are unionized through various trade unions and can and do collective bargaining. Through this they achieve good salaries, a retirement plan with employee/employer contributions, continuous education programs, vacations, and other benefits. Since the majority of the construction industry employers are quite small operations, there's a para-public organization in charge of managing different aspects of this, and ensuring your benefits aren't tied to an employer. A lot this system is codified by a provincial law, you cannot legally do construction work (as an employee or employer) if you operate outside of this system.
This means, various trades have assigned roles/duties/acts and you have to be licensed in a trade (carry a card) to do the work (this is inspected by the parapublic org), every hour declared by your employers counts towards maintaining your license status and you'll have tax/retirement/union/education fee deduced from your pay. There are also overtime pay rules.
Cash is enabler to under the table jobs, and since you have no deductibles (tax or other) it actually beats overtime pay. It's very real problem, there's a big amount of hours that are worked and not declared. This is part workers cheating themselves out of the benefits negotiated by their unions, part employers/employee not fulfilling their duty to contribute to society (that healthcare you'll probably need isn't paying itself....). While I don't have a strong opinion on cash other than I haven't used much in recent years, I do have a strong opinion on tax evasion which only works at scale if there's a lot of cash circulating.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:14 AM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Basically all workers in trades operating in the construction industry are unionized through various trade unions and can and do collective bargaining. Through this they achieve good salaries, a retirement plan with employee/employer contributions, continuous education programs, vacations, and other benefits. Since the majority of the construction industry employers are quite small operations, there's a para-public organization in charge of managing different aspects of this, and ensuring your benefits aren't tied to an employer. A lot this system is codified by a provincial law, you cannot legally do construction work (as an employee or employer) if you operate outside of this system.
This means, various trades have assigned roles/duties/acts and you have to be licensed in a trade (carry a card) to do the work (this is inspected by the parapublic org), every hour declared by your employers counts towards maintaining your license status and you'll have tax/retirement/union/education fee deduced from your pay. There are also overtime pay rules.
Cash is enabler to under the table jobs, and since you have no deductibles (tax or other) it actually beats overtime pay. It's very real problem, there's a big amount of hours that are worked and not declared. This is part workers cheating themselves out of the benefits negotiated by their unions, part employers/employee not fulfilling their duty to contribute to society (that healthcare you'll probably need isn't paying itself....). While I don't have a strong opinion on cash other than I haven't used much in recent years, I do have a strong opinion on tax evasion which only works at scale if there's a lot of cash circulating.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:14 AM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
TWinbrook8 The answer is "MFA" via text message isn't really all that secure and proper MFA uses an app with strong encryption that is phone number agnostic.
If you're using Google authenticator or MS Authenticator or whatever swap your SIM card all you want, it doesn't care.
Halloween Jack Revelation 13:16-17
posted by sotonohito at 11:21 AM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you're using Google authenticator or MS Authenticator or whatever swap your SIM card all you want, it doesn't care.
Halloween Jack Revelation 13:16-17
posted by sotonohito at 11:21 AM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Quebec is a serious outlier in that regard in Canada. Here in BC the vast majority of construction work is done by non union labour. Union workers comprise only 13% of the workforce. Even in regulated trades (where you have to be licenced to do the work legally) like electrical, union work is the minority. Unregulated trades (eg roofing) where the only speed bump to doing the work is printing a business card is much worse. The only sector with less union members is business and financial services.
posted by Mitheral at 1:19 PM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 1:19 PM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mitheral, interesting I thought other provinces also regulated most trades, I’ll poke around see if somebody has studies comparing costs and how that affect the industry. But we’re in a solid detail so I’ll just stop nowz.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:37 PM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:37 PM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I currently live in Sweden, which is very much at the forefront of cashless societies, and I can't help but wonder about that. How are foreigners and visitors supposed to navigate this? Someone visiting for a few weeks isn't going to have access to Swish (or whatever your preferred payment app is).
We visited Sweden last summer. There were definitely a few churches with "honor system" donations for the toilets that we never made, because the only way to do it was Swish. We took pictures of the payment data, planned to do it, and never did because it seemed disproportionately complicated to the value of the services we stole.
The only cash I saw in our whole time there was a 10-öre piece I picked up off the ground because it was a novelty to find.
posted by jackbishop at 6:44 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
We visited Sweden last summer. There were definitely a few churches with "honor system" donations for the toilets that we never made, because the only way to do it was Swish. We took pictures of the payment data, planned to do it, and never did because it seemed disproportionately complicated to the value of the services we stole.
The only cash I saw in our whole time there was a 10-öre piece I picked up off the ground because it was a novelty to find.
posted by jackbishop at 6:44 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
North America, which has a lot of small banks that don’t work together very well, where cashless systems are poorly accepted
Just like everyone is saying in this thread, whether or not a person uses a lot of cash in the US is dependent on income and social class. In the US it is definitely possible and easy to go cashless, and has been for 20+ years.
I can’t imagine how this industry could go cashless any time in the near future, without putting an enormous number of people out of work.
Ever seen those signs in stores about cashing paychecks? That's how. They turn the checks back into cash for a small fee, for those that are unbanked.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:39 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just like everyone is saying in this thread, whether or not a person uses a lot of cash in the US is dependent on income and social class. In the US it is definitely possible and easy to go cashless, and has been for 20+ years.
I can’t imagine how this industry could go cashless any time in the near future, without putting an enormous number of people out of work.
Ever seen those signs in stores about cashing paychecks? That's how. They turn the checks back into cash for a small fee, for those that are unbanked.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:39 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ever seen those signs in stores about cashing paychecks? That's how. They turn the checks back into cash for a small fee, for those that are unbanked.
That comment was about day laborers specifically, who are accepting jobs from random homeowners and contractors who are going to range in trustworthiness. I guess there is a greater-than-zero chance they'd accept a check if you asked, but because of how checks bounce I would expect a lot of reluctance to accepting checks from randoms. In the unlikely event that the US goes cashless, you'd most likely pay day laborers with a Venmo equivalent (which, from googling, appears to have work-arounds for people who don't have a bank account).
posted by Dip Flash at 9:51 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
That comment was about day laborers specifically, who are accepting jobs from random homeowners and contractors who are going to range in trustworthiness. I guess there is a greater-than-zero chance they'd accept a check if you asked, but because of how checks bounce I would expect a lot of reluctance to accepting checks from randoms. In the unlikely event that the US goes cashless, you'd most likely pay day laborers with a Venmo equivalent (which, from googling, appears to have work-arounds for people who don't have a bank account).
posted by Dip Flash at 9:51 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was talking to a subcontractor in another forum about checks and that is exactly what he said. His jobs are 2-3 days long and a specific bank from a few towns over takes longer than that to return a bad check to his own bank. So, he might be done with the job before he knows the check bounced.
posted by soelo at 3:10 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by soelo at 3:10 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
That comment was about day laborers specifically, who are accepting jobs from random homeowners and contractors who are going to range in trustworthiness. I guess there is a greater-than-zero chance they'd accept a check if you asked, but because of how checks bounce I would expect a lot of reluctance to accepting checks from randoms.
Yeah, I know. They take cash, check, and venmo (occasionally). Check is far more common, as lots of jobs a half step up from day laborer pay in checks. Checks are being replaced by visa gift credit type cards more than Venmo.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:21 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I know. They take cash, check, and venmo (occasionally). Check is far more common, as lots of jobs a half step up from day laborer pay in checks. Checks are being replaced by visa gift credit type cards more than Venmo.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:21 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I still use petty cash for some small transactions (Can). I like having the choice of options. I would hate to be forced to use an App as the only option (I run on an older phone).
When I read an article about Sweden going cashless a while back, most people quoted were like: "WE HAVE TO STOP ALL THE DRUG DEALING!", while my thought was that most drugs should just be legal now anyway (with proper treatment options available, of course).
posted by ovvl at 3:51 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
When I read an article about Sweden going cashless a while back, most people quoted were like: "WE HAVE TO STOP ALL THE DRUG DEALING!", while my thought was that most drugs should just be legal now anyway (with proper treatment options available, of course).
posted by ovvl at 3:51 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
My in-laws have "gone weird again" according to my sister in law, being big on cash all of a sudden, so I came back to this thread to figure out why. While they are antivax Q adjacent, their roots are obsessed with the end times Christians. Probably the covid vaccine isn't the mark of the beast (it looked like it for a bit with the vaccine mandates, not that you ever needed a vaccine to go grocery shopping or to receive medical care) - we're back to RFID tags as the mark. Thanks, that's helped explain that.
Since I moved my driver's licence to my phone case, I rarely carry my wallet, using my phone to "tap n go". For a while phone keys mask became the new wallet keys phone. I should probably carry a little cash through.
With the proliferation of scams a lot of people are only accepting cash on Facebook marketplace. (Counterfeit bills aren't a huge issue here in Australia)
posted by freethefeet at 6:23 AM on June 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Since I moved my driver's licence to my phone case, I rarely carry my wallet, using my phone to "tap n go". For a while phone keys mask became the new wallet keys phone. I should probably carry a little cash through.
With the proliferation of scams a lot of people are only accepting cash on Facebook marketplace. (Counterfeit bills aren't a huge issue here in Australia)
posted by freethefeet at 6:23 AM on June 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Checks were bad enough before they started the check cashing fee scam. Now even if you have the time and wherewithal to go to the bank that issued a check you'll still be charged a fee most of the time.
These days trying to pay someone with a check is like a slap in the face.
posted by sotonohito at 5:18 AM on June 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
These days trying to pay someone with a check is like a slap in the face.
posted by sotonohito at 5:18 AM on June 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm 26 and I've literally never had to write a cheque, or been paid by cheque. To me, cheques are like a fossil concept, they only exist in the signage that says "we don't accept cheques". It's always weird to see that in other places they're still accepted and in regular use.
I should clarify on my previous comment, I think a little cash is good for society. Not just for homeless people and undocumented workers, even just socially. I mean, even when my friends and I transfer each other for stuff, actually checking the specific amount would be so rude. You do it like you're giving them cash, rounding to the nearest 5 or 10. The idea of someone sending a Venmo request for $15.34 is like... Horrific. I'd be gossiping behind their back, talking shit, never shouting them a coffee again.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:34 AM on June 3, 2023
I should clarify on my previous comment, I think a little cash is good for society. Not just for homeless people and undocumented workers, even just socially. I mean, even when my friends and I transfer each other for stuff, actually checking the specific amount would be so rude. You do it like you're giving them cash, rounding to the nearest 5 or 10. The idea of someone sending a Venmo request for $15.34 is like... Horrific. I'd be gossiping behind their back, talking shit, never shouting them a coffee again.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:34 AM on June 3, 2023
If you're spelling it "cheque" then you're probably not American, and that's significant.
The USA invested quite a bit of money in check infrastructure, and as a result had a checking system that's about as good as you can get. Which was great right up until EFT started becoming a thing, and American banks decided to ignore it because why should they invest in this weird computer shit when they've got a perfect checking system?
The result is that America clings to checks long, LONG, after they should have been officially abolished.
Here's an example: for reasons that are too boring to get into here, I have accounts at two banks. From time to time I want to move money from one to the other. The simplest, fastest, cheapest, way of doing that is to write a check to myself from bank A and deposit it in bank B. Which is totally bonkers. Trying to arrange for a real EFT would require a great deal of paperwork and then a charge of around $15 or so per EFT.
As a result people who don't want to deal with the bullshit have to use all manner of mutually incompatible, predatory, payment apps that take fees but not as much as the bank would for an EFT.
AND we still have people, not all of them elderly, who want to write checks to pay for stuff at stores and make everyone hate them because it takes for fucking ever for them to write a check, give it to the clerk, get their ID verified, and all the other time consuming crap it takes to write a check.
My last job, when I resigned, mailed me a physical check for my final payment rather than just do direct deposit like they had for the rest of my payroll. I have no idea why.
Checks aren't nearly as common in the US as they used to be, but they're still depressingly common and stores don't have the "fuck off with your fossilized check bullshit" signs as often as you'd hope.
posted by sotonohito at 9:28 AM on June 3, 2023
The USA invested quite a bit of money in check infrastructure, and as a result had a checking system that's about as good as you can get. Which was great right up until EFT started becoming a thing, and American banks decided to ignore it because why should they invest in this weird computer shit when they've got a perfect checking system?
The result is that America clings to checks long, LONG, after they should have been officially abolished.
Here's an example: for reasons that are too boring to get into here, I have accounts at two banks. From time to time I want to move money from one to the other. The simplest, fastest, cheapest, way of doing that is to write a check to myself from bank A and deposit it in bank B. Which is totally bonkers. Trying to arrange for a real EFT would require a great deal of paperwork and then a charge of around $15 or so per EFT.
As a result people who don't want to deal with the bullshit have to use all manner of mutually incompatible, predatory, payment apps that take fees but not as much as the bank would for an EFT.
AND we still have people, not all of them elderly, who want to write checks to pay for stuff at stores and make everyone hate them because it takes for fucking ever for them to write a check, give it to the clerk, get their ID verified, and all the other time consuming crap it takes to write a check.
My last job, when I resigned, mailed me a physical check for my final payment rather than just do direct deposit like they had for the rest of my payroll. I have no idea why.
Checks aren't nearly as common in the US as they used to be, but they're still depressingly common and stores don't have the "fuck off with your fossilized check bullshit" signs as often as you'd hope.
posted by sotonohito at 9:28 AM on June 3, 2023
Oh, and I forgot! I signed up for automatic bill payment with my bank to pay my rent. It worked great right up until my landlord's office moved.
Which is when I discovered that by "automatic bill pay" my bank, and all other American banks, don't just move money electronically.
Nope, they print out a check, seal it in an envelope, and send it through the USPS to the entity you want to pay. In 2023. Yes, really.
posted by sotonohito at 9:30 AM on June 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Which is when I discovered that by "automatic bill pay" my bank, and all other American banks, don't just move money electronically.
Nope, they print out a check, seal it in an envelope, and send it through the USPS to the entity you want to pay. In 2023. Yes, really.
posted by sotonohito at 9:30 AM on June 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Banks don't always send a check for autopay, though. They only do that when the entity they are paying isn't set up to get payments from them with the customer's name and account numbers on them. I pay my credit cards with autopay and there is no paper used at all.
posted by soelo at 11:25 AM on June 3, 2023
posted by soelo at 11:25 AM on June 3, 2023
Also, I have accounts at a large national bank and a local credit union. I can move money between them with no charge. It is not instant, but doesn't take more than a few business days. I generally move it from the large bank's app and it also works with a brokerage account, though that seems to take 1-2 extra days. American banks aren't all stuck in dark ages. Maybe you need a better bank?
posted by soelo at 11:31 AM on June 3, 2023
posted by soelo at 11:31 AM on June 3, 2023
That's still pretty dark ages. Here in Canada I have accounts with three banks plus retirement accounts and move money between them with interac and bill pay. I get annoyed all the time that interac transfers from bank S to bank T take 30 minutes despite them removing the funds from my account immediately and despite transfers from T to S taking place essentially instantly.
posted by Mitheral at 3:13 PM on June 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 3:13 PM on June 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I get annoyed all the time that interac transfers from bank S to bank T take 30 minutes despite them removing the funds from my account immediately and despite transfers from T to S taking place essentially instantly.
My legacy computer programmer sense is tingling. Sounds like there's a leftover batch process that's kicked off on a 15 minute schedule that's been working forever and is "good enough" to never percolate up to the part of the TO-DO list that actually gets looked at.
posted by mikelieman at 4:12 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
My legacy computer programmer sense is tingling. Sounds like there's a leftover batch process that's kicked off on a 15 minute schedule that's been working forever and is "good enough" to never percolate up to the part of the TO-DO list that actually gets looked at.
posted by mikelieman at 4:12 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
As near as I can figure it is exactly 30 minutes give or take less than a minute irregardless of whether I'm doing the transfer at 3 am or 3 pm or any time in between. While I suppose an innocent or at least incompetency explaination could exist it feels to me like they are pushing some legal requirement to the limit to make use of a short term float that must amount to millions of dollars at times.
The little cherry on top of the annoyance sundae is I only opened an account with bank S because bank T, despite being 100% online and electrons being free, limits one to 12 chequing/savings accounts and I needed a couple more savings accounts for budgeting reasons.
At any rate the bar has been raised such that having to wait several business days for a transfer to go through now would be completely unacceptable. It's amazing what we get used to.
posted by Mitheral at 7:06 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The little cherry on top of the annoyance sundae is I only opened an account with bank S because bank T, despite being 100% online and electrons being free, limits one to 12 chequing/savings accounts and I needed a couple more savings accounts for budgeting reasons.
At any rate the bar has been raised such that having to wait several business days for a transfer to go through now would be completely unacceptable. It's amazing what we get used to.
posted by Mitheral at 7:06 PM on June 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
« Older 'Even in the so-called dark things, there's... | Go be a lighthouse keeper, do! Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
...aaaaand they lost me.
That was pretty quick, given that I was predisposed to agree with them (/me points to his wallet, which was just topped off with paper money yesterday morning). The second you find QAnon-type drones on your side, you need to reevaluate your efforts. Kinda like how I'm reevaluating my use of paper money now, because if I find I'm aligned with Q-idiots I may have made some mistakes in my thinking.
posted by aramaic at 5:25 PM on May 27, 2023 [60 favorites]