( ▄ ▄ ▄ ▄▄▄ ▄▄▄ ▄▄▄ ▄ ▄ ▄ )
May 29, 2023 11:43 AM Subscribe
'Fortress of the Sky' (slyt) A short documentary on the B-17 Bomber. 'The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner'. 'The life of a ball turret gunner.'
Same. For such an short-lived series, a number of episodes occupy an unreasonable amount of space in my head.
posted by LionIndex at 11:56 AM on May 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by LionIndex at 11:56 AM on May 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
My father flew in B-17's. He photographed bombing runs over Europe. He, like so many other men, never spoke about it to me. I do know that he feared flying after the war and never set foot on a plane again.
posted by DJZouke at 12:47 PM on May 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 12:47 PM on May 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
That Jarrell poem has haunted me ever since I read it in high school 30 years ago. Still the most horrifying piece of English-language prose I know of.
posted by mykescipark at 1:04 PM on May 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by mykescipark at 1:04 PM on May 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
The Turret Gunner's Farewell, LN's MeFi music ballad of her great-uncle, who went down in a Halifax III in WWII.
posted by bonehead at 1:10 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 1:10 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
The episode of Amazing Stories that @hippybear mentions is available on Vimeo
posted by OrangeDisk at 1:46 PM on May 29, 2023
posted by OrangeDisk at 1:46 PM on May 29, 2023
For some reason the episode of Amazing Stories where a B-17 loses its landing gear and the turret gunner wishes some into existence through art to save his life and land the plane safely has stuck vividly in my mind ever since I saw it first run on television.
That's my B-17 story.
Mine too, although after that I spotted a B-17 model in my local toy store, bought it, and built it. I wasn't the best at model making but I remember that being a fun one.
posted by chaz at 2:03 PM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's my B-17 story.
Mine too, although after that I spotted a B-17 model in my local toy store, bought it, and built it. I wasn't the best at model making but I remember that being a fun one.
posted by chaz at 2:03 PM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
That Jarrell poem has haunted me ever since I read it in high school 30 years ago. Still the most horrifying piece of English-language prose I know of.
It started haunting me today.
posted by bendy at 2:12 PM on May 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
It started haunting me today.
posted by bendy at 2:12 PM on May 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
(If you're under the age of 45 and wondering why everyone seems to remember a fairly meh episode of a middling television show, it's because it was written, produced, and directed by a post-E.T. post-Raiders Steven Spielberg and heavily promoted as such. In 1985 Steven Spielberg could have exhibited a moist baguette in a jar and it would have been hailed as a consummate new wave pastiche.)
posted by phooky at 2:13 PM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by phooky at 2:13 PM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Stationed at an airbase about 90 miles northwest of London
It’s quite possible Buczak was stationed at the RAF base where I graduated from high school.
What an amazing story - he was really lucky.
posted by bendy at 2:24 PM on May 29, 2023
It’s quite possible Buczak was stationed at the RAF base where I graduated from high school.
What an amazing story - he was really lucky.
posted by bendy at 2:24 PM on May 29, 2023
What I can't figure is why the cheese takes part in this. It's so cruel to the cheese!
Edit: Yeah ok so I meant to post this to the cheese thread.
posted by flamewise at 2:26 PM on May 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
Edit: Yeah ok so I meant to post this to the cheese thread.
posted by flamewise at 2:26 PM on May 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
Imho, 2020's Shadow in the Cloud is the best grrrl-power sci-fi b-movie ever made about the B-17.
posted by fairmettle at 2:30 PM on May 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 2:30 PM on May 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I went to an air show at Boeing Field in Seattle, sometime in the ‘80s, and I saw 3 (5?) of them flying in formation, including taking off and landing in sequence. I was young, and some details are fuzzy, but I remember my father pointing and saying “look—you’ll never see that again.” Thus far, he has been correct.
I also remember clambering around inside one of them, including the ball turret.
posted by cupcakeninja at 2:36 PM on May 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I also remember clambering around inside one of them, including the ball turret.
posted by cupcakeninja at 2:36 PM on May 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Imho, 2020's Shadow in the Cloud is the best grrrl-power sci-fi b-movie ever made about the B-17.
The last half hour is kind of ridiculous, but, overall, it’s better than it should be.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:15 PM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
The last half hour is kind of ridiculous, but, overall, it’s better than it should be.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:15 PM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter: Yeah ok so I meant to post this to the cheese thread.
posted by chavenet at 3:18 PM on May 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 3:18 PM on May 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
I had the amazing opportunity to listen to Col. Richard Bushong, a B17 copilot, speak about his experiences at the 390th museum located in the Pima Air & Space Museum. He is there every Thursday. If you are in Arizona I suggest you try and stop in. The museum is amazing in its own right. https://youtu.be/Nc2dGDknizw
posted by nestor_makhno at 4:24 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by nestor_makhno at 4:24 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Every summer, our family would go to the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. The "Memphis Belle" resides there.
When the "Aluminum Overcast" visited a nearby airport, I drove over and took pictures. (bought a hat and a t-shirt, but didn't spring for the 30 minute ride).
Took pictures of the "Liberty Belle" when it visited too, sometime early in 2011. Weeks later, I saw on the news that it had burned in a field after an emergency landing.
I admire the engineering and the look of WWII aircraft, but I hate what motivated their creation.
posted by coppertop at 4:31 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
When the "Aluminum Overcast" visited a nearby airport, I drove over and took pictures. (bought a hat and a t-shirt, but didn't spring for the 30 minute ride).
Took pictures of the "Liberty Belle" when it visited too, sometime early in 2011. Weeks later, I saw on the news that it had burned in a field after an emergency landing.
I admire the engineering and the look of WWII aircraft, but I hate what motivated their creation.
posted by coppertop at 4:31 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, that's one heavy poem, we didn't get it in high school, but I was a teen flippin through a Norton Anthology...
Len Deighton's interesting novel Bomber is something not pro-war (previously different context).
(a bunch of B-17 photos is a random thing that came up on my FB feed a while ago.)
posted by ovvl at 4:31 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Len Deighton's interesting novel Bomber is something not pro-war (previously different context).
(a bunch of B-17 photos is a random thing that came up on my FB feed a while ago.)
posted by ovvl at 4:31 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
In 1945 a B-17 came down on Meltham Moor, in the English Peak District, near Huddersfield.
This isn't a super accessible place so some of the wreckage is still there.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:42 PM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
This isn't a super accessible place so some of the wreckage is still there.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:42 PM on May 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
What I can't figure is why the cheese takes part in this. It's so cruel to the cheese!
Like any other group, cheeses have all kinds of motivations for enlisting ranging from admirable to monstrous, and of course many cheeses were simply taken when the draft was extended to food products.
But cheese being preferred for aviation is just a myth. It's understandable -- cheeses have a partly-deserved reputation for sharpness and their generally compact nature would let them fit easily into the tight spaces of WW2 aircraft. But cheese is dense and heavy, which are real detriments for aircrew. In reality, it was aerated products like breads that were steered towards aviation, since 10 kg of weight saved on aircrew is another 10kg of fuel that can be carried.
In reality, cheeses were generally steered towards the submarine corps, where their compact nature is also helpful and where their dense nature is actually a bonus if trying to trim the boat in an emergency.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:46 PM on May 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Like any other group, cheeses have all kinds of motivations for enlisting ranging from admirable to monstrous, and of course many cheeses were simply taken when the draft was extended to food products.
But cheese being preferred for aviation is just a myth. It's understandable -- cheeses have a partly-deserved reputation for sharpness and their generally compact nature would let them fit easily into the tight spaces of WW2 aircraft. But cheese is dense and heavy, which are real detriments for aircrew. In reality, it was aerated products like breads that were steered towards aviation, since 10 kg of weight saved on aircrew is another 10kg of fuel that can be carried.
In reality, cheeses were generally steered towards the submarine corps, where their compact nature is also helpful and where their dense nature is actually a bonus if trying to trim the boat in an emergency.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:46 PM on May 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
If you live in the western US or Canada, you can fly as a passenger in a B17 (or B25) this summer at the Flying Legends of Victory Tour.
They flew the B25 out of Albuquerque this past weekend. It was neat to see, though I didn’t have the opportunity to take flight.
posted by SteveInMaine at 5:05 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
They flew the B25 out of Albuquerque this past weekend. It was neat to see, though I didn’t have the opportunity to take flight.
posted by SteveInMaine at 5:05 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Huh. After descriptions of it I didn't recall that episode of Amazing Stories, but after watching the episode (thanks OrangeDisk!) I absolutely recall the cheesy CGI flying books from the intro and the episode's finale. And my brain is pulling up that it was totally marketed as "Steven Spielberg's Amazing Stories"
posted by indexy at 5:12 PM on May 29, 2023
posted by indexy at 5:12 PM on May 29, 2023
my dad is in artifact acquisition and display at the national museum of ww2 aviation. they had this b-17 here for an airshow and i got to see it flying a few days in a row. sadly, craft and crew were subsequently lost in a midair collision at a later show.
the museum is terrific and has a flying vintage aircraft collection and great docent-led tours.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:31 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
the museum is terrific and has a flying vintage aircraft collection and great docent-led tours.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:31 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Sadly, it's quite possible no B-17 will fly again. Very serious wing airworthiness directive is expected very soon. Cost of compliance may be impractical.
New wing AD
Nothing is certain, but I am glad I had a ride on Colling's "909". (It crashed a couple years ago reasons unrelated to the AD.)
posted by sea at 6:47 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
New wing AD
Nothing is certain, but I am glad I had a ride on Colling's "909". (It crashed a couple years ago reasons unrelated to the AD.)
posted by sea at 6:47 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
The crashed B17 that JC mentioned was from my 'home base' aviation area... I've bled on her, sweated on her, bonded with my estranged dad on her, washed her down, helped with tours... And now cried over her loss. Nothing quite like walking an air show flight line at dawn, with nobody else around, seeing a bunch of warbirds looming out of the mist. It really made me think about my grandfather, who was a security officer of some sort for the Norden sight. Heartbreaking, beautiful, tragic, horrible.
posted by Jacen at 7:53 PM on May 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 7:53 PM on May 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
My step dad was flight engineer (dorsal turret gunner) on a B-17 in Europe. I knew he loved the plane itself, but he never talked about the experience itself. He was called up again for Korea, and had a much less traumatic time as flight engineer in a heavy cargo plane.
A lot of this footage was taken in Seattle, of course. It's kind of odd to look at the plane taking off against the hillside east of Boeing Field without there being a freeway there.
posted by lhauser at 10:18 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
A lot of this footage was taken in Seattle, of course. It's kind of odd to look at the plane taking off against the hillside east of Boeing Field without there being a freeway there.
posted by lhauser at 10:18 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
On one of the best work days I've ever had I got to ride on the B-17 mentioned above by sea, owned by the Collings Foundation. We flew from Frederick, Maryland to somewhere in New Jersey, with the Foundation's B-24 beside us. I went all over the plane during the flight, and spent a good amount of time in the bombardier's position in the nose, watching bridges and factories roll by below, trying and failing to imagine. Utterly fascinating. Awful to hear about the tragic crash several years later.
posted by zoinks at 12:33 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by zoinks at 12:33 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Interesting parts of the video: the research needed to fly in the "stratosphere", recalling / pre-calling the B 52 "stratofortress"
And documenting / propagandandizing significant changes to the production line so that "all races and creeds" , even women, could work the line producing fortresses
posted by eustatic at 2:42 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
And documenting / propagandandizing significant changes to the production line so that "all races and creeds" , even women, could work the line producing fortresses
posted by eustatic at 2:42 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have walked through the Collings Foundation's B-17. They opened the bomb bay doors, and to get between them you walk on a catwalk that's very narrow. I looked down and imagined a smoky Germany past three miles of empty air, with not-quite-a-foot-wide strip of steel holding me up. Knowing how the planes shook, it must have been terrifying up there.
And yes, I silently recited "they hosed me out" as I squeezed past the ball turret.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:05 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
And yes, I silently recited "they hosed me out" as I squeezed past the ball turret.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:05 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are some times when I feel a bit uneasy about Star Wars indulging in the WW2 aesthetic.
This is one of them.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:19 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is one of them.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:19 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Turret Gunner's Farewell, LN's MeFi music ballad of her great-uncle, who went down in a Halifax III in WWII.
That's awesome, but for historical accuracy I feel obligated to point out that the only turret on a Halifax is on top... They didn't have ball turrets on the belly.
posted by Snowflake at 7:39 AM on May 30, 2023
That's awesome, but for historical accuracy I feel obligated to point out that the only turret on a Halifax is on top... They didn't have ball turrets on the belly.
posted by Snowflake at 7:39 AM on May 30, 2023
I do know that he feared flying after the war and never set foot on a plane again.
Only our ability to mass-produce planes and wartime secrecy kept us in the war in Europe. Had the public known about the level of attrition for B-17s there would likely have been a major public outcry. His fear was totally understandable.
posted by tommasz at 7:49 AM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Only our ability to mass-produce planes and wartime secrecy kept us in the war in Europe. Had the public known about the level of attrition for B-17s there would likely have been a major public outcry. His fear was totally understandable.
posted by tommasz at 7:49 AM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also flew on the Collings 909, three times. Was amazed at how nimble it was and how small as we flew out of Burbank and around the LA Basin. Was terrified at how fragile the craft appeared and couldn't imagine trying to fly an actual mission that required you to stay steady in the face of flak and aircraft.
Never been back on the planes because my3rd flight was with my buddy Bill's dad, Big John. John and I secretly scattered part of Bill's ashes over Lake Hollywood.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:45 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Never been back on the planes because my3rd flight was with my buddy Bill's dad, Big John. John and I secretly scattered part of Bill's ashes over Lake Hollywood.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:45 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I read The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner in high school English and the edition we had included Jarrell's footnote about the hose being a high-pressure steam hose. Just to drive the point home.
posted by that's candlepin at 9:50 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by that's candlepin at 9:50 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Those familiar with John Irving’s work may recall that The World According to Garp begins with Jenny Fields (mother of the titular Garp) impregnating herself via a disabled and dying ball-turret gunner known only as Technical Sergeant Garp (CW for sexual abuse of a disabled patient by a caregiver). Jarrell’s poem closes out the chapter.
posted by TedW at 12:50 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TedW at 12:50 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
My oh my how this lady can fly…
Won’t you take a ride
On heavy metal
The B-17 really is an iconic aircraft that shows up in a lot of places. It would be great if we could keep a few of them flying, but making sure we have some on display and recognizing what it was like to be on one during combat (in a war with a clear moral justification and an actual declaration of war in the US) is even more important.
posted by TedW at 1:20 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Won’t you take a ride
On heavy metal
The B-17 really is an iconic aircraft that shows up in a lot of places. It would be great if we could keep a few of them flying, but making sure we have some on display and recognizing what it was like to be on one during combat (in a war with a clear moral justification and an actual declaration of war in the US) is even more important.
posted by TedW at 1:20 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you want to read a harrowing history of the air forces of Europe, I recommend Masters of the Air. The casualties were staggering. Almost no one survived the first year of the air war.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:21 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:21 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Remains of WWII airman identified nearly 80 years after his death.
5-29-23
posted by clavdivs at 8:47 PM on May 31, 2023
5-29-23
posted by clavdivs at 8:47 PM on May 31, 2023
The television series version of 12 O’Clock High (A Quinn Martin Production!), featuring a B-17 bombing group, is available on Amazon Prime. To borrow a joke from Austin Powers, it’s amazing how much the East of England looks like Southern California
posted by Ranucci at 4:33 PM on June 1, 2023
posted by Ranucci at 4:33 PM on June 1, 2023
Woody Guthrie:
Now in Washington and Oregon you can hear the factories hum,
Making chrome and making manganese and light aluminum,
And there roars the flying fortress now to fight for Uncle Sam,
Spawned upon the King Columbia by the big Grand Coulee Dam.
posted by ovvl at 6:51 PM on June 7, 2023
Now in Washington and Oregon you can hear the factories hum,
Making chrome and making manganese and light aluminum,
And there roars the flying fortress now to fight for Uncle Sam,
Spawned upon the King Columbia by the big Grand Coulee Dam.
posted by ovvl at 6:51 PM on June 7, 2023
« Older “CHEESE! CHEESE! CHEESE! CHEESE! CHEESE! CHEESE!... | Who’s Telling the Truth about Disco Elysium? Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
That's my B-17 story.
posted by hippybear at 11:51 AM on May 29, 2023 [31 favorites]