Who’s Telling the Truth about Disco Elysium?
May 29, 2023 4:33 PM Subscribe
People Make Games (previously) have just concluded a three-month investigation into the circumstances surrounding the departure of key personnel from Disco Elysium (previously) developer ZA/UM. The result is a two and a half hour long report.
I thought this was some kind of profile of in-game characters and whether they were lying or not. The subject matter as you've stated it here makes it more like something I would watch. I will do that later!
posted by hippybear at 4:37 PM on May 29, 2023
posted by hippybear at 4:37 PM on May 29, 2023
A little bit of supplementary commentary from Obsidian Director Josh Sawyer.
posted by juv3nal at 4:50 PM on May 29, 2023
posted by juv3nal at 4:50 PM on May 29, 2023
Estonia looks beautiful.
When I first played it, I thought Disco Elysium was the best game I'd ever played. And while I still think that this might be true, the game and its setting also have some flaws that were initially easy to overlook. Regardless, I remember watching a lot of interviews with Kurvitz after the game came out -- many of them in the context of the awards that the game was starting to collect. He was charming and well-spoken and had a magnetic personality, and I was completely sold. One thing, however really nagged me for a long time afterwards. There was some discussion about the game's development history in which I believe he mentioned that they were initially working with some Polish software developers early on, but it wasn't working out and they effectively fired the dev team. At that moment I suspected that he was the kind of creative who treated engineering as disposable, and it was a bit disappointing. Still, before watching this video, that was just a suspicion.
I believe it's possible to be a "genius" and to have a vision which inspires a larger group of people to accomplish something great without being insensitive or a tyrant to those who don't live up to your expectations. But maybe that's because I'm not such a person myself. In any event, I don't think we need to excessively celebrate or look up to people like that cough cough Steve Jobs cough cough.
...and of course we seem to have another case here of "four legs good two legs better."
posted by Slothrup at 4:53 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
When I first played it, I thought Disco Elysium was the best game I'd ever played. And while I still think that this might be true, the game and its setting also have some flaws that were initially easy to overlook. Regardless, I remember watching a lot of interviews with Kurvitz after the game came out -- many of them in the context of the awards that the game was starting to collect. He was charming and well-spoken and had a magnetic personality, and I was completely sold. One thing, however really nagged me for a long time afterwards. There was some discussion about the game's development history in which I believe he mentioned that they were initially working with some Polish software developers early on, but it wasn't working out and they effectively fired the dev team. At that moment I suspected that he was the kind of creative who treated engineering as disposable, and it was a bit disappointing. Still, before watching this video, that was just a suspicion.
I believe it's possible to be a "genius" and to have a vision which inspires a larger group of people to accomplish something great without being insensitive or a tyrant to those who don't live up to your expectations. But maybe that's because I'm not such a person myself. In any event, I don't think we need to excessively celebrate or look up to people like that cough cough Steve Jobs cough cough.
...and of course we seem to have another case here of "four legs good two legs better."
posted by Slothrup at 4:53 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately that's about 2¼ hours more than I'm willing to invest. If anyone finds a summary article I'd be most grateful. The announcement tweet thread at least tells you a bit about what you'll find in the video. The part that got my attention
And then it's time to confront ZA/UM's CEO, Ilmar Kompus, head-on. This is the man who stands accused of having stolen the company out from underneath the other shareholders, including those who first dreamed of Disco Elysium all those years ago. But there's much, much more to this story than just the shareholder dispute, it turns out.posted by Nelson at 5:51 PM on May 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Been waiting to watch this all day at work. 45 minutes in, this has got compelling/maddening conspiracy vibes. All that’s missing is a body.
posted by rodlymight at 5:52 PM on May 29, 2023
posted by rodlymight at 5:52 PM on May 29, 2023
Warning: AI content: Summarize.tech provides AI summaries of videos, and here's their summary for this one: Summary of Investigation: Who’s Telling the Truth about Disco Elysium?. It summarizes each of the three hours, and then you can click See More to see summaries of each five-minute segment.
posted by kristi at 6:18 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by kristi at 6:18 PM on May 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am enjoying this, but very distracted by the cigarette constantly smouldering in the not-an-ashtray next to a guy who is obviously not a smoker.
posted by Dysk at 7:47 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 7:47 PM on May 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Always two sides. Turns out it is possible to have a cool idea for a video game and also be an asshole.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:25 PM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Meatbomb at 10:25 PM on May 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
So they were Ultraliberals all along?
posted by Spacelegoman at 1:13 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Spacelegoman at 1:13 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
My thoughts on having watched it:
Argo Tuulik stuck out to me, coming across like he's trying so hard to be as charitable as the facts allow to everyone involved, especially his old friends. His testimony nevertheless utterly damns Robert Kurvitz. That's telling.
Kurvitz sounds like a couple of bosses I've had - a despicable person to work with or under, unless you're one of the golden ones. Utterly buying into his own bullshit, and a strident asshole. Speaks with authority, and has some degree of charisma. Thinks the fact that he worked hard (ignoring that others did as well) should buy him extraordinary privileges above those around him. Thinks he should be free to stick his oar in anywhere, at any time. Classic, classic Boss type. Awful.
The executives also sound shady as fuck - the arrangement to hide Haavel's shareholding stinks of rat. There is some dodgy corporate financial wrangling going on, and it may well be true that Rostov and Kurvitz were shafted there. The execs are clearly also assholes on at least some level.
The only 'side' here that doesn't look awful are the regular ZA/UM employees. Whatever the legal wrangling and bullshit, they seem to be pretty glad to not be working with Kurvitz and Rostov any more, even if they aren't necessarily cool with how it happened. It is notable how much the tone and body language or Kurvitz and especially Rostov changed when the accusations of toxicity and their old friend Argo were brought up. They don't even try and deny anything, just deflect. Also super weird how little Rostov speaks, and how much Kurvitz speaks for and about him like he isn't even in the room. That creeps me out.
Really, two things have happened here as far as I can tell, one good, one bad: Kurvitz and his inner circle were fired for being toxic assholes to work with, which is good, but Kurvitz and some of his inner circle were also defrauded of their shareholding (or of the value of the entity in which they were shareholders) which is bad. It's hard to have much sympathy for arseholes though, even as I don't think fraudster executives is a better place for the money to go.
(Apologies for any name misspellings or fuckups! I am really bad at picking out and remembering names at the best of times, and there were a lot of them in this two plus hours!)
posted by Dysk at 6:49 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Argo Tuulik stuck out to me, coming across like he's trying so hard to be as charitable as the facts allow to everyone involved, especially his old friends. His testimony nevertheless utterly damns Robert Kurvitz. That's telling.
Kurvitz sounds like a couple of bosses I've had - a despicable person to work with or under, unless you're one of the golden ones. Utterly buying into his own bullshit, and a strident asshole. Speaks with authority, and has some degree of charisma. Thinks the fact that he worked hard (ignoring that others did as well) should buy him extraordinary privileges above those around him. Thinks he should be free to stick his oar in anywhere, at any time. Classic, classic Boss type. Awful.
The executives also sound shady as fuck - the arrangement to hide Haavel's shareholding stinks of rat. There is some dodgy corporate financial wrangling going on, and it may well be true that Rostov and Kurvitz were shafted there. The execs are clearly also assholes on at least some level.
The only 'side' here that doesn't look awful are the regular ZA/UM employees. Whatever the legal wrangling and bullshit, they seem to be pretty glad to not be working with Kurvitz and Rostov any more, even if they aren't necessarily cool with how it happened. It is notable how much the tone and body language or Kurvitz and especially Rostov changed when the accusations of toxicity and their old friend Argo were brought up. They don't even try and deny anything, just deflect. Also super weird how little Rostov speaks, and how much Kurvitz speaks for and about him like he isn't even in the room. That creeps me out.
Really, two things have happened here as far as I can tell, one good, one bad: Kurvitz and his inner circle were fired for being toxic assholes to work with, which is good, but Kurvitz and some of his inner circle were also defrauded of their shareholding (or of the value of the entity in which they were shareholders) which is bad. It's hard to have much sympathy for arseholes though, even as I don't think fraudster executives is a better place for the money to go.
(Apologies for any name misspellings or fuckups! I am really bad at picking out and remembering names at the best of times, and there were a lot of them in this two plus hours!)
posted by Dysk at 6:49 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
If anyone finds a summary article I'd be most grateful.
Rock Paper Shotgun has been keeping up to date with this whole mess; that's where I've been reading about it for the past several months. Here's the relevant posts, in chronological order:
- Disco Elysium founder has "bad news" for those waiting for a Disco sequel
- Disco Elysium developer alleges creative leads were "fired on false premises"
- Disco Elysium dev files lawsuit against the studio that allegedly kicked him out
- Fired Disco Elysium devs allege fraud at Studio ZA/UM, say "civil and criminal charges are on the table"
- Disco Elysium studio says former employees were fired for "egregious misconduct"
- Disco Elysium lawsuit woes continue as fired devs double down on claims of fraud at Studio ZA/UM
posted by May Kasahara at 8:47 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Rock Paper Shotgun has been keeping up to date with this whole mess; that's where I've been reading about it for the past several months. Here's the relevant posts, in chronological order:
- Disco Elysium founder has "bad news" for those waiting for a Disco sequel
- Disco Elysium developer alleges creative leads were "fired on false premises"
- Disco Elysium dev files lawsuit against the studio that allegedly kicked him out
- Fired Disco Elysium devs allege fraud at Studio ZA/UM, say "civil and criminal charges are on the table"
- Disco Elysium studio says former employees were fired for "egregious misconduct"
- Disco Elysium lawsuit woes continue as fired devs double down on claims of fraud at Studio ZA/UM
posted by May Kasahara at 8:47 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Kurvitz sounds like a couple of bosses I've had - a despicable person to work with or under, unless you're one of the golden ones. Utterly buying into his own bullshit, and a strident asshole. Speaks with authority, and has some degree of charisma. Thinks the fact that he worked hard (ignoring that others did as well) should buy him extraordinary privileges above those around him. Thinks he should be free to stick his oar in anywhere, at any time. Classic, classic Boss type. Awful.
My brother worked on Disco Elysium. This is exactly how he described Kurvitz.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 9:58 AM on May 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
My brother worked on Disco Elysium. This is exactly how he described Kurvitz.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 9:58 AM on May 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think the ZA/UM team made an incredible game as much in spite of Kurvitz as because of him. But of course that doesn't fit with the singular hero visionary narrative that our cultures love.
posted by Dysk at 10:22 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 10:22 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
One odd detail, out of a thousand, which completely derailed me, was that the enormous cup Kompus drinks from during the interview (see 46:48) matches his outfit perfectly.
posted by Kattullus at 11:51 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 11:51 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oops, here's the link to the right place in the video. Also, looking at it again, Chris Bratt's sweater matches the sofa to his right perfectly as well.
That said, having visited Tallinn a few times, I'm more than willing to accept that everything in Estonia is well designed enough for accidental visual harmonies just happening.
posted by Kattullus at 12:08 PM on May 30, 2023
That said, having visited Tallinn a few times, I'm more than willing to accept that everything in Estonia is well designed enough for accidental visual harmonies just happening.
posted by Kattullus at 12:08 PM on May 30, 2023
I just finished watching and I’m still processing all that. I’m a big fan of Disco Elysium, and I had plans to play through it again this year, and if I do I’ll definitely go in with a different mindset.
But I wanted to agree with something Dysk said upthread:
Argo Tuulik stuck out to me, coming across like he's trying so hard to be as charitable as the facts allow to everyone involved, especially his old friends. His testimony nevertheless utterly damns Robert Kurvitz. That's telling.
This phrase by Tuulik in particular has really stuck with me: “I don’t think [Kurvitz] understood that to lead is a burden, not a privilege.”
This is the most damning assessment I’ve ever read of a boss, because it includes so much in such a short sentence.
posted by Kattullus at 1:01 AM on May 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
But I wanted to agree with something Dysk said upthread:
Argo Tuulik stuck out to me, coming across like he's trying so hard to be as charitable as the facts allow to everyone involved, especially his old friends. His testimony nevertheless utterly damns Robert Kurvitz. That's telling.
This phrase by Tuulik in particular has really stuck with me: “I don’t think [Kurvitz] understood that to lead is a burden, not a privilege.”
This is the most damning assessment I’ve ever read of a boss, because it includes so much in such a short sentence.
posted by Kattullus at 1:01 AM on May 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Andrew Plotkin, writing about Disco & ZA/UM incidentally links to some unauthorized translations of Kurvitz' novel (never officially translated) for anyone who's interested.
posted by juv3nal at 1:29 AM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by juv3nal at 1:29 AM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Kurvitz' novel (never officially translated) for anyone who's interested.
Not interested anymore!
posted by Dysk at 1:54 AM on May 31, 2023
Not interested anymore!
posted by Dysk at 1:54 AM on May 31, 2023
I think it's way too credulous to accept at face value that the firings were only or even primarily because Kurvitz is an asshole. I think this fact made the firings acceptable for the rest of the team, but it's clear that the money men were doing what money men do, which is fuck the workers.
posted by jy4m at 2:03 AM on June 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 2:03 AM on June 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
jy4m: I think it's way too credulous to accept at face value that the firings were only or even primarily because Kurvitz is an asshole. I think this fact made the firings acceptable for the rest of the team, but it's clear that the money men were doing what money men do, which is fuck the workers.
My read, a couple of days after watching and thinking about the video, is that I think probably everyone interviewed is telling the truth. However, it’s what they’re not saying that tells even more. Kompus not giving specifics about business matters. Kurvitz deflecting when asked about his management.
It’s entirely possible that Kurvitz had his life’s work stolen away from him, and that he’s a nightmare to work for.
posted by Kattullus at 4:10 AM on June 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
My read, a couple of days after watching and thinking about the video, is that I think probably everyone interviewed is telling the truth. However, it’s what they’re not saying that tells even more. Kompus not giving specifics about business matters. Kurvitz deflecting when asked about his management.
It’s entirely possible that Kurvitz had his life’s work stolen away from him, and that he’s a nightmare to work for.
posted by Kattullus at 4:10 AM on June 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
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posted by Slothrup at 4:36 PM on May 29, 2023