Do Not Cross
June 12, 2023 4:57 AM Subscribe
with the proliferation of effective ai text generation, i expect many other API lockdowns/price increases to come.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:11 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:11 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I bet the biggest subreddits will find they're easier to replace than they think. The only way this is effective is it the bulk of users actually stop browsing the site (difficult!), and that probably requires quick and functional alternatives.
But I agree with what AlbertCalavicci says.
posted by timdiggerm at 5:17 AM on June 12, 2023
But I agree with what AlbertCalavicci says.
posted by timdiggerm at 5:17 AM on June 12, 2023
It's hard to pick out what's more dumb about this situation--the idea that people wouldn't balk at outrageously high API charges, or that people on a platform designed to disseminate news wouldn't network to create a huge response. To do everything possible to lower your company's value before its IPO just feels like malpractice. But then, we seem to be living in the grand age of social media platforms shooting themselves in the foot, so maybe this is just part of the natural lifecycle?
posted by mittens at 5:18 AM on June 12, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by mittens at 5:18 AM on June 12, 2023 [15 favorites]
I am of two minds on this. On the one hand, Reddit's own interfaces are weird and terrible in a variety of ways and I feel that way as someone who isn't huge user so I can only imagine how terrible they are for pride who are. On the other hand, the APIs have their own revenue streams but prevent people from seeing ads that would make Reddit money, so what exactly is Reddit supposed to do besides charge them?
I mean, there are alternatives - they could require that individual users be Reddit subscribers in order to use the AI-based apps, for example, but all that does is change how it costs users money. Fixing the worst elements of the interface would help, but it will never be practical to maintain a codebase with so many interfaces that it shows everyone to see the site the way they want to (a lesson MetaFilter has yet to learn) Ultimately, there has to be a way that Reddit makes money from all or more of its users, if it can't afford its current high percentage of free riders.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:21 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
I mean, there are alternatives - they could require that individual users be Reddit subscribers in order to use the AI-based apps, for example, but all that does is change how it costs users money. Fixing the worst elements of the interface would help, but it will never be practical to maintain a codebase with so many interfaces that it shows everyone to see the site the way they want to (a lesson MetaFilter has yet to learn) Ultimately, there has to be a way that Reddit makes money from all or more of its users, if it can't afford its current high percentage of free riders.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:21 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
Enshittification
On the Media’s excellent Enshittification series:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
posted by glaucon at 5:23 AM on June 12, 2023 [34 favorites]
On the Media’s excellent Enshittification series:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
posted by glaucon at 5:23 AM on June 12, 2023 [34 favorites]
so what exactly is Reddit supposed to do besides charge them?
Charge them less than $20 million a year?
posted by Splunge at 5:24 AM on June 12, 2023 [65 favorites]
Charge them less than $20 million a year?
posted by Splunge at 5:24 AM on June 12, 2023 [65 favorites]
jacquilynne: so what exactly is Reddit supposed to do besides charge them?
Based on what I've seen on Reddit, the response from a lot of users isn't "don't charge them", it's "they're charging them too much".
posted by capricorn at 5:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
Based on what I've seen on Reddit, the response from a lot of users isn't "don't charge them", it's "they're charging them too much".
posted by capricorn at 5:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
> On the other hand, the APIs have their own revenue streams but prevent people from seeing ads that would make Reddit money,
websites shouldn't make money.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 5:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
websites shouldn't make money.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 5:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Aaron Swartz would approve.
posted by hypnogogue at 5:27 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by hypnogogue at 5:27 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
It was interesting last night as my suggested feed changed from fairly accurate subreddits based on stuff I'd read before to kind of generic "uh we gotta fill this out somehow, how about r/FunnyandSad? or r/TipOfMyFork? uh uh c'mon interact with _something_!" subs as my normal subs went private.
posted by Kyol at 5:35 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Kyol at 5:35 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Can we please not pretend that the web has to be enshitified because no other alternative is feasible?
Can we stop saying that obnoxious, intrusive sidebar ads and constantly clicking unsubscribe to emails we never signed up for in the first place is normal?
Can we not just hand over everything to surveillance capitalism while smugly insisting that you'd have to be naive to have an expectation of privacy?
Because those are the baby steps, and the first, bar-so-low-you'd-trip-over-it next step we need to take is to acknowledge that all these websites from Reddit to Yelp to Amazon to Twitter to YouTube are far more the product of their users' labor than the companies', and that ownership of these sites should reflect that.
posted by AlSweigart at 5:37 AM on June 12, 2023 [90 favorites]
Can we stop saying that obnoxious, intrusive sidebar ads and constantly clicking unsubscribe to emails we never signed up for in the first place is normal?
Can we not just hand over everything to surveillance capitalism while smugly insisting that you'd have to be naive to have an expectation of privacy?
Because those are the baby steps, and the first, bar-so-low-you'd-trip-over-it next step we need to take is to acknowledge that all these websites from Reddit to Yelp to Amazon to Twitter to YouTube are far more the product of their users' labor than the companies', and that ownership of these sites should reflect that.
posted by AlSweigart at 5:37 AM on June 12, 2023 [90 favorites]
They slammed right into the trust thermocline and kept diving. Even if they fully back off and things stumble on, a lot of the more active users who actually provide the content that gives Reddit value will be highly motivated to find more trustworthy alternatives.
posted by Freaky at 5:37 AM on June 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by Freaky at 5:37 AM on June 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
What amazed me was the factor of third-party tools being necessary to do moderation, and mods being unpaid. People already volunteer to create the content, and have to see ads; when you make the most dedicated of that group pay for extra tools to do free work to build your company's value, well... You deserve what you get.
And yet I would be sad to see some of the communities I am on -- r/raspberry pi and r/raspberry_pi_projects, for example, plus r/homeassistant and r/frankturner -- go dark. Where else am I going to find these people? The "official" web sites & fora for many communities aren't actually as good as the related subreddits!
posted by wenestvedt at 5:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [22 favorites]
And yet I would be sad to see some of the communities I am on -- r/raspberry pi and r/raspberry_pi_projects, for example, plus r/homeassistant and r/frankturner -- go dark. Where else am I going to find these people? The "official" web sites & fora for many communities aren't actually as good as the related subreddits!
posted by wenestvedt at 5:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [22 favorites]
(And yeah, no Reddit for me today or tomorrow. I already launched the app and immediately quit it twice so far today.)
posted by wenestvedt at 5:44 AM on June 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 5:44 AM on June 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
The thing I find most baffling is the way in which Reddits’s CEO is communicating about Apollo’s developer. Publicly accusing him of threatening Reddit is a bad start, but when the taped conversation is released showing that it was a misinterpretation which was cleared up immediately, he then doubles down by accusing the developer of being two faced.
It’s just an astonishing bit of miscommunication.
posted by Stark at 5:45 AM on June 12, 2023 [37 favorites]
It’s just an astonishing bit of miscommunication.
posted by Stark at 5:45 AM on June 12, 2023 [37 favorites]
The thing I find most baffling is the way in which Reddits’s CEO is communicating about Apollo’s developer.
I think one of the things that we are learning and/or seeing demonstrated repeatedly is that many many rich and powerful people (including plenty of politicians) are not very smart or competent. Elon Musk is not an exception, he's the rule, and the more we see of how these people think and act the clearer it is that many of them are simply not very bright.
posted by an octopus IRL at 5:51 AM on June 12, 2023 [64 favorites]
I think one of the things that we are learning and/or seeing demonstrated repeatedly is that many many rich and powerful people (including plenty of politicians) are not very smart or competent. Elon Musk is not an exception, he's the rule, and the more we see of how these people think and act the clearer it is that many of them are simply not very bright.
posted by an octopus IRL at 5:51 AM on June 12, 2023 [64 favorites]
wenestvedt - I also instinctively launched the app twice and ended up deleting it from my home screen.
posted by kimberussell at 5:54 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by kimberussell at 5:54 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I know it's antithetical to their entire worldview, but every "tech entrepreneur" needs to have a cross-stitch hung up in their office on day one:
THERE IS NO IRREPLACEABLE WEB SITE
(YOU ARE JUST MAKING A WEB SITE)
posted by Etrigan at 5:54 AM on June 12, 2023 [45 favorites]
(YOU ARE JUST MAKING A WEB SITE)
posted by Etrigan at 5:54 AM on June 12, 2023 [45 favorites]
Rich people aren't smart, they're just protected from their stupidity. Which then rolls downhill to everyone else. That's why there should be no rich people.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:57 AM on June 12, 2023 [57 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:57 AM on June 12, 2023 [57 favorites]
Stark: It’s just an astonishing bit of miscommunication.
Miscommunications get cleared up in good faith and all parties involved move on. This is a blatant bully tactic for someone looking to pick a fight and discredit their opponent. Good on that dev for being willing to hang it up on 1 July instead of playing their games.
posted by dr_dank at 5:58 AM on June 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
Miscommunications get cleared up in good faith and all parties involved move on. This is a blatant bully tactic for someone looking to pick a fight and discredit their opponent. Good on that dev for being willing to hang it up on 1 July instead of playing their games.
posted by dr_dank at 5:58 AM on June 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
I'm hoping Christian (dev of Apollo) goes on to make a successful Lemmy app.
posted by terrapin at 6:00 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by terrapin at 6:00 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Third party mod tools have been exempted from the api license requirements. Reddit has also exempted tow popular accessibility focused apps. They have also created a process for non-commercial projects that need to go over the free usage quota to get exemptions.
Apollo and a couple of other alternative mobile apps provide the Reddit gold features for free especially the ad free browsing. This competes directly with Reddit’s business. Reddit charges $6/month for these features. They wanted to charge Apollo $2.50/month.
The main developer behind Apollo released part of his call with Reddit management. It sure sounds like not only did he not want to pay anything at all; but he felt like Reddit should pay him to go away quietly, though he then backed off when press if that was a threat.
posted by interogative mood at 6:02 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Apollo and a couple of other alternative mobile apps provide the Reddit gold features for free especially the ad free browsing. This competes directly with Reddit’s business. Reddit charges $6/month for these features. They wanted to charge Apollo $2.50/month.
The main developer behind Apollo released part of his call with Reddit management. It sure sounds like not only did he not want to pay anything at all; but he felt like Reddit should pay him to go away quietly, though he then backed off when press if that was a threat.
posted by interogative mood at 6:02 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I had never heard of Lemmy until Terrapin's post above. Does anyone here use it and can they recommend a good instance?
posted by hearthpig at 6:06 AM on June 12, 2023
posted by hearthpig at 6:06 AM on June 12, 2023
I bet the biggest subreddits will find they're easier to replace than they think.
I bet Reddit is easier to replace than it thinks.
posted by azpenguin at 6:23 AM on June 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
I bet Reddit is easier to replace than it thinks.
posted by azpenguin at 6:23 AM on June 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
https://mstdn.social/@feditips/110530397267066781
There's a Fediverse alternative to #Reddit called #Kbin. More info at https://kbin.pub
Still VERY new, not many servers yet, two so far in English:
https://fedia.io
https://kbin.social
No app yet, use it through these sites. Subreddits are called "Magazines". You can interact with magazines from other servers.
Coders help Kbin at https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core, non-coders donate at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kbin
(Sorry to people bored of this, had many requests to put info in one place)
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:27 AM on June 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Reddit has been getting worse and worse as they push their app. I don't know if this happens for everyone but on my phone it'll randomly decide to refresh the page and ask me again if I want to use their app. So I lose where I am in the thread. I'm never going to use your stupid fucking app. Quit asking me
posted by downtohisturtles at 6:27 AM on June 12, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 6:27 AM on June 12, 2023 [38 favorites]
>Third party mod tools have been exempted from the api license requirements.
This only came after the backlash. Also, listening to the recording, it seems clear that the Apollo dev's comment about getting paid off for $10M was a semi-sarcastic response to reddit drastically overstating the opportunity cost of third-party apps -- hardly a threat.
posted by alspacka at 6:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [30 favorites]
This only came after the backlash. Also, listening to the recording, it seems clear that the Apollo dev's comment about getting paid off for $10M was a semi-sarcastic response to reddit drastically overstating the opportunity cost of third-party apps -- hardly a threat.
posted by alspacka at 6:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [30 favorites]
https://mastodon.online/@mastodonmigration/110528237515654583
From Mike Masnick / TechCrunch:
So, this is great news!
Jerry Bell @jerry who runs the large Mastodon instance infosec.exchange, has posted that they are running both #Lemmy and #kbin instances:
"I have good news!
https://infosec.pub is running lemmy, and https://fedia.io is running kbin and we control them both"
https://infosec.exchange/@jerry/110527602646036871
This should give people confidence that these instances can handle the coming surge in new users:
Lemmy: https://infosec.pub/signup
kbin: https://fedia.io/register
#RedditMigration
Jerry Bell post announcing infosec.pub is running lemmy, and https://fedia.io is running kbin and we control them both
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:32 AM on June 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
From Mike Masnick / TechCrunch:
So, this is great news!
Jerry Bell @jerry who runs the large Mastodon instance infosec.exchange, has posted that they are running both #Lemmy and #kbin instances:
"I have good news!
https://infosec.pub is running lemmy, and https://fedia.io is running kbin and we control them both"
https://infosec.exchange/@jerry/110527602646036871
This should give people confidence that these instances can handle the coming surge in new users:
Lemmy: https://infosec.pub/signup
kbin: https://fedia.io/register
#RedditMigration
Jerry Bell post announcing infosec.pub is running lemmy, and https://fedia.io is running kbin and we control them both
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:32 AM on June 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
"It sure sounds like not only did he not want to pay anything at all; but he felt like Reddit should pay him to go away quietly, though he then backed off when press if that was a threat."
That's a very Reddit CEO-friendly interpretation of the conversation. My read is that the developer is pushing on the idea that Apollo is "costing" Reddit $20m in revenue. "Really? I'm costing you $20m a year? OK, then buy the app at half that and it's a bargain, right? Oh, suddenly that figure is not realistic, huh?" (I have only read and not listened to the conversation - it's possible that the tone of the people's words would change my feelings here.)
I said in a previous thread that an easy solution to this, allowing 3rd parties to operate on the API and make non-shitty client apps for Reddit, is to restrict usage to paid-up Reddit Premium users. If you log into Apollo or whatever with a Premium account, then all's good and you're just paying Apollo for the app itself and not for hiding ads or whatever.
My read is that Reddit's CEO is seeing a payday only ~6 months away with the IPO and is willing to wholly and completely fuck over the users of the site -- that is, the only thing that gives Reddit any actual value -- in the hopes they can maintain valuation long enough to ride off into the sunset with his bucket of cash.
It will be very very satisfying to me if his actions, instead, end up completely devaluing the site ahead of the IPO.
posted by jzb at 6:35 AM on June 12, 2023 [61 favorites]
That's a very Reddit CEO-friendly interpretation of the conversation. My read is that the developer is pushing on the idea that Apollo is "costing" Reddit $20m in revenue. "Really? I'm costing you $20m a year? OK, then buy the app at half that and it's a bargain, right? Oh, suddenly that figure is not realistic, huh?" (I have only read and not listened to the conversation - it's possible that the tone of the people's words would change my feelings here.)
I said in a previous thread that an easy solution to this, allowing 3rd parties to operate on the API and make non-shitty client apps for Reddit, is to restrict usage to paid-up Reddit Premium users. If you log into Apollo or whatever with a Premium account, then all's good and you're just paying Apollo for the app itself and not for hiding ads or whatever.
My read is that Reddit's CEO is seeing a payday only ~6 months away with the IPO and is willing to wholly and completely fuck over the users of the site -- that is, the only thing that gives Reddit any actual value -- in the hopes they can maintain valuation long enough to ride off into the sunset with his bucket of cash.
It will be very very satisfying to me if his actions, instead, end up completely devaluing the site ahead of the IPO.
posted by jzb at 6:35 AM on June 12, 2023 [61 favorites]
I'm not really a redditor but I do find it useful for finding answers to tech questions in a way the broader web no longer is because it has been polluted with SEO content farm garbage and low quality forums. For entire categories of questions I have I now default to adding "site:reddit.com" to any search.
So of course they are going to have to ruin it.
posted by srboisvert at 6:48 AM on June 12, 2023 [41 favorites]
So of course they are going to have to ruin it.
posted by srboisvert at 6:48 AM on June 12, 2023 [41 favorites]
> has been polluted with SEO content farm garbage and low quality forums
And AI content generation is going 1) continue this and saturate the entire web with spam and 2) it's going to happen sooner than you think.
I think I put 2017 as the year the telephone system became unusable because of robocalls. I don't even answer voice calls anymore. I'm wondering how much longer SMS texting has.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:52 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
And AI content generation is going 1) continue this and saturate the entire web with spam and 2) it's going to happen sooner than you think.
I think I put 2017 as the year the telephone system became unusable because of robocalls. I don't even answer voice calls anymore. I'm wondering how much longer SMS texting has.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:52 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
>if it can't afford its current high percentage of free riders.
The folks leading the charge against the third party app elimination are moderators, and it is wrong IMHO consider them free riders. They are generating value for Reddit.
Reddit's main attraction for me is that many subs are heavily moderated by people who care about a topic, and thus offer much better odds of finding good answers to a question.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:02 AM on June 12, 2023 [43 favorites]
The folks leading the charge against the third party app elimination are moderators, and it is wrong IMHO consider them free riders. They are generating value for Reddit.
Reddit's main attraction for me is that many subs are heavily moderated by people who care about a topic, and thus offer much better odds of finding good answers to a question.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:02 AM on June 12, 2023 [43 favorites]
It's killing me and it's only 10 am ET. There are a lot of subreddits that are sweet and funny and I already miss them. I know that some are going down in part because of the lack of resources for vision-impaired people in the official app--they need a third part app to get anything out of the site--and Reddit's official response is, "who cares?" The amount of money Reddit is asking for is ridiculous. The people moderating the subreddits are doing it for free. Ugh, the whole thing sucks. I had to leave Twitter when Elon took over, my FB feed is mostly my friends and pages about pretty houses, and I've been avoiding Mastodon because I don't understand it. I may have to pull up all of MeFi's documentation on Mastodon soon.
posted by ceejaytee at 7:04 AM on June 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by ceejaytee at 7:04 AM on June 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
Defector (a site born directly out of the enshittification of a once-good website) has an interesting article about the Reddit meltdown. "Gradually over the last decade, Reddit went from merely embarrassing but occasionally amusing, to actively harmful, to—mainly by accident—essential. As the platform that swallowed niche message boards, it became home to numerous small communities of surprisingly helpful enthusiasts, and grew into a repository of arcane knowledge about, and instantly available first-hand expertise on, a staggering number of topics, from the demographically predictable to the somewhat more surprising. And now that is all set to come to an ignominious, self-inflicted end. ... We are living through the end of the useful internet."
posted by Kat Allison at 7:10 AM on June 12, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by Kat Allison at 7:10 AM on June 12, 2023 [35 favorites]
I know that some are going down in part because of the lack of resources for vision-impaired people in the official app--they need a third part app to get anything out of the site--and Reddit's official response is, "who cares?"
Reddits official response was to work with those apps and make sure they would have continued free access to the API. The same has gone for the mod tools. It is frustrating to hear the same made up bullshit used to justify turning off all these communities.
posted by interogative mood at 7:11 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Reddits official response was to work with those apps and make sure they would have continued free access to the API. The same has gone for the mod tools. It is frustrating to hear the same made up bullshit used to justify turning off all these communities.
posted by interogative mood at 7:11 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I bet the biggest subreddits will find they're easier to replace than they think.
One of the things I was struck by when I logged on earlier today was how much I was seeing that I wasn't seeing before. So many of the large subreddits drown out other, smaller ones. It's making me rethink what I subscribe to.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:13 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of the things I was struck by when I logged on earlier today was how much I was seeing that I wasn't seeing before. So many of the large subreddits drown out other, smaller ones. It's making me rethink what I subscribe to.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:13 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Economists are going to be so confused later by the sudden unexplained spike in productivity this month.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:14 AM on June 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 7:14 AM on June 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
websites, and i cannot stress this enough, should not make money.
take donations? sure. make money? all the ways to do that involve making thing shitty.
websites should not make money.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:15 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
take donations? sure. make money? all the ways to do that involve making thing shitty.
websites should not make money.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:15 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
It is frustrating to hear the same made up bullshit
(a) I don't think you actually read the comment you are responding to (hint: it's about the official app), (b) they only caved this far after the outcry began, and it seems extremely likely they never would have without it, and (c) who knows how long this support will last if attention dies down, they were pretty explicit that there were no guarantees. A bit more actual info:
posted by advil at 7:22 AM on June 12, 2023 [43 favorites]
(a) I don't think you actually read the comment you are responding to (hint: it's about the official app), (b) they only caved this far after the outcry began, and it seems extremely likely they never would have without it, and (c) who knows how long this support will last if attention dies down, they were pretty explicit that there were no guarantees. A bit more actual info:
After The Verge published the article noting the new exception would be made for accessible apps, a /Blind moderator, MostlyBlindGamer, shared that they’ve received no clarification from Reddit about how they’re defining “accessibility-focused apps” or any process around having apps qualify under the new guidelines. However, they did tell us they had a call with Reddit where they were asked about apps that provide accessibility features, but were not told why they were asking about this.(source)
“We have strong concerns that Reddit lacks expertise to consider the varying access needs of the blind and visually impaired community,” MostlyBlindGamer wrote, adding they had also reached out to Reddit for further comment. They also noted that, over the past three years, r/blind and another moderator, u/rumster, had reached out to Reddit repeatedly over accessibility concerns and had “received no substantive response.”
posted by advil at 7:22 AM on June 12, 2023 [43 favorites]
"websites should not make money."
Why do you feel entitled to free labor from website creators and contributors?
And why are you singling out websites out of all forms of publication/broadcasting?
Should newspapers make money?
Should book publishers make money?
Should radio stations make money?
Should TV stations make money?
If it's okay for them to make money and not websites, what's the difference?
posted by Jacqueline at 7:33 AM on June 12, 2023 [24 favorites]
Why do you feel entitled to free labor from website creators and contributors?
And why are you singling out websites out of all forms of publication/broadcasting?
Should newspapers make money?
Should book publishers make money?
Should radio stations make money?
Should TV stations make money?
If it's okay for them to make money and not websites, what's the difference?
posted by Jacqueline at 7:33 AM on June 12, 2023 [24 favorites]
websites should not make money.
I’m not going to go digging to double-check it because that would involve using Reddit, but I saw a very thorough costs breakdown in one of the “official” third party app goodbye threads.
Basically: Reddit’s proposed pricing structure works out to about 25x costs. At a mere 200~400% markup (3~5x) this issue goes away, and the third party clients would be fine. So, no, websites absolutely can make money this is just a ploy to a) drive up engagement and ad revenue via the official app before the IPO and b) fish for AI companies willing to cough up a lot more than they were previously, to update their training corpus (nevermind this is a terrible idea because of the massive recent influx of AI generated content = training feedback loop, and every LLM developer knows it).
Apologies if you weren’t being sarcastic.
Economists are going to be so confused later by the sudden unexplained spike in productivity this month.
Honestly Reddit is my #2 site for finding a quick bit of subject matter expert rundown, after Stack Overflow. It’s way, way below SO but probably the only other one I’m hitting daily or near-daily at work (there’s a ton of amazing breakdown of core game mechanics, for one). Given how many people append “reddit” to search queries to get non-garbage results these days, I suspect productivity actually takes a hit?
posted by Ryvar at 7:36 AM on June 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
I’m not going to go digging to double-check it because that would involve using Reddit, but I saw a very thorough costs breakdown in one of the “official” third party app goodbye threads.
Basically: Reddit’s proposed pricing structure works out to about 25x costs. At a mere 200~400% markup (3~5x) this issue goes away, and the third party clients would be fine. So, no, websites absolutely can make money this is just a ploy to a) drive up engagement and ad revenue via the official app before the IPO and b) fish for AI companies willing to cough up a lot more than they were previously, to update their training corpus (nevermind this is a terrible idea because of the massive recent influx of AI generated content = training feedback loop, and every LLM developer knows it).
Apologies if you weren’t being sarcastic.
Economists are going to be so confused later by the sudden unexplained spike in productivity this month.
Honestly Reddit is my #2 site for finding a quick bit of subject matter expert rundown, after Stack Overflow. It’s way, way below SO but probably the only other one I’m hitting daily or near-daily at work (there’s a ton of amazing breakdown of core game mechanics, for one). Given how many people append “reddit” to search queries to get non-garbage results these days, I suspect productivity actually takes a hit?
posted by Ryvar at 7:36 AM on June 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
"websites should not make money."
Also, did you forget that you paid $5 to be able to post that here?
posted by Jacqueline at 7:36 AM on June 12, 2023 [15 favorites]
Also, did you forget that you paid $5 to be able to post that here?
posted by Jacqueline at 7:36 AM on June 12, 2023 [15 favorites]
I've stayed off today. I browse using the mobile website with a browser that blocks all reddit ads. (Thank you kiwi for being a chromium browser that allows plugins on mobile). So killing the apps won't effect me directly.
At the same time, does anyone remember how Reddit became Reddit? Digg made some major changes and people migrated to Reddit. Digg went from 200 Million to being sold for $500k. That was a genuine mistake by the owner and he has my sympathy. Spez does not.
I just don't know where the migration will move to. The pull of Reddit was that it was so centralized. Running multiple instances of lemmy is cool and all, but like mastadon and twitter, this is not a practical replacement. But they've burned so much trust. They're having their Skinner moment (the kids must be wrong) and it's painful to see a site that has slowly become incredibly useful (it's how I found things to do in Edinburgh when I moved) self-destruct.
posted by Hactar at 7:39 AM on June 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
At the same time, does anyone remember how Reddit became Reddit? Digg made some major changes and people migrated to Reddit. Digg went from 200 Million to being sold for $500k. That was a genuine mistake by the owner and he has my sympathy. Spez does not.
I just don't know where the migration will move to. The pull of Reddit was that it was so centralized. Running multiple instances of lemmy is cool and all, but like mastadon and twitter, this is not a practical replacement. But they've burned so much trust. They're having their Skinner moment (the kids must be wrong) and it's painful to see a site that has slowly become incredibly useful (it's how I found things to do in Edinburgh when I moved) self-destruct.
posted by Hactar at 7:39 AM on June 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
Reddit is apparently down.
posted by loquacious at 7:41 AM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 7:41 AM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ugh. Google should just acquire Reddit and put an end to all of this. If you can't append "reddit" to search terms, Google loses an embarrassingly big chunk of its utility overnight. And if the decision makers in the search org don't think Reddit is coming for their money next they aren't thinking very hard about how this went down.
posted by potrzebie at 7:41 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 7:41 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is also bad news for Google searches because you can't put "reddit" into your search to get a useful result.
posted by RobotHero at 7:42 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by RobotHero at 7:42 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
> Why do you feel entitled to free labor from website creators and contributors?
i don't. if people want to put stuff up on the web, that's cool. if people don't, that's also cool.
i am broadly speaking against the web, for the cancellation of eternal september, and in favor of the arrival of long-awaited october. this position is completely unreasonable and i absolutely will not back down from it.
> Also, did you forget that you paid $5 to be able to post that here?
are you claiming that metafilter makes money.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [21 favorites]
i don't. if people want to put stuff up on the web, that's cool. if people don't, that's also cool.
i am broadly speaking against the web, for the cancellation of eternal september, and in favor of the arrival of long-awaited october. this position is completely unreasonable and i absolutely will not back down from it.
> Also, did you forget that you paid $5 to be able to post that here?
are you claiming that metafilter makes money.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [21 favorites]
The CEO (u/spez on Reddit) has admitted to EDITING other people's Reddit comments before this whole mess even started. So I already distrust him, even before this cash grab.
Mobile browsers were being blocked this weekend (interesting experiment timing), and I tested Firefox mobile with uBlock Origin and a plethora of filters, and it only loaded a white screen on a Pixel 7 Pro. So yeah they're trying to make people use the official app which has unblockable ads every few posts, and they've taken money from the group that did that He Gets Us Super Bowl ad.
Ads are expensive for the users as they use up bandwidth, and I'm lucky that I have unlimited data, and mostly am at home on Wi-Fi anyway, but not everyone has unlimited data or need to pay as they go. I would have data usage stats, but I deleted Boost & the official app (only bc they make looking at Reddit links so unbearable on mobile with half the screen taken up with the nag to use the app) over the weekend and just deleted my bookmark on my start page. But I imagine it was a chunk as I had a custom feed of interesting subs that were heavy on the text like HobbyDrama, AskHistorians, etc. that I liked to read before bed. I use(d) Boost and it made Reddit bearable. Automatic upvote if I saved a comment/post, I could long press and collapse a thread, and it had no ads. Because the API they were using didn't even have a setup to push the ads to mobile. The official app did do ads of course, but they used a different system. Also, AskHistorians, the sub known for their moderation, used the dickens out of the mod tools and Pushshift powered tools to search comments made previously and to make a weekly digest of all questions and answers that week. Not many of those tools were provided by Reddit.
Reddit's content is made by the users, with links, text, photos and videos posted by the users with comments by the users. I dislike the fact that they're doing the API changes that affected how people use it just so they could charge the people using Reddit as part of the LLMs currently slurping up anything on the internet regardless of if they have permission or not. That was the original aim of the API changes, to charge the LLMs to access the data. It just so happened to also affect mod tools and 3rd party clients.
I've used Reddit since 2012, and follow 1k subs (mostly cats, feminist subs, a couple for mobile games, and places for migraines and ADD). It's been a bit of a habit change to not even look at the site.
posted by tlwright at 7:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Mobile browsers were being blocked this weekend (interesting experiment timing), and I tested Firefox mobile with uBlock Origin and a plethora of filters, and it only loaded a white screen on a Pixel 7 Pro. So yeah they're trying to make people use the official app which has unblockable ads every few posts, and they've taken money from the group that did that He Gets Us Super Bowl ad.
Ads are expensive for the users as they use up bandwidth, and I'm lucky that I have unlimited data, and mostly am at home on Wi-Fi anyway, but not everyone has unlimited data or need to pay as they go. I would have data usage stats, but I deleted Boost & the official app (only bc they make looking at Reddit links so unbearable on mobile with half the screen taken up with the nag to use the app) over the weekend and just deleted my bookmark on my start page. But I imagine it was a chunk as I had a custom feed of interesting subs that were heavy on the text like HobbyDrama, AskHistorians, etc. that I liked to read before bed. I use(d) Boost and it made Reddit bearable. Automatic upvote if I saved a comment/post, I could long press and collapse a thread, and it had no ads. Because the API they were using didn't even have a setup to push the ads to mobile. The official app did do ads of course, but they used a different system. Also, AskHistorians, the sub known for their moderation, used the dickens out of the mod tools and Pushshift powered tools to search comments made previously and to make a weekly digest of all questions and answers that week. Not many of those tools were provided by Reddit.
Reddit's content is made by the users, with links, text, photos and videos posted by the users with comments by the users. I dislike the fact that they're doing the API changes that affected how people use it just so they could charge the people using Reddit as part of the LLMs currently slurping up anything on the internet regardless of if they have permission or not. That was the original aim of the API changes, to charge the LLMs to access the data. It just so happened to also affect mod tools and 3rd party clients.
I've used Reddit since 2012, and follow 1k subs (mostly cats, feminist subs, a couple for mobile games, and places for migraines and ADD). It's been a bit of a habit change to not even look at the site.
posted by tlwright at 7:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Since then Reddit identified the specific apps they are working with and the CEO provided more details during his AMA. They have fleshed out the details as requested. The complaint seems to be Reddit isn’t listening to us. Then when examples of how they are listening and responding are provided the goal posts get moved again.
posted by interogative mood at 7:45 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 7:45 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
> I just don't know where the migration will move to.
This is why I predict there will be none. Some non-trivial amount of users will leave at least for a while, but the vast majority will remain. With no credible alternatives in sight, many of the leavers will eventually come back.
Reddit was in the right state at the right time during Digg’s demise. I’m skeptical of any current Reddit alternatives being good enough to be a viable migration target with growth potential or staying power.
posted by jklaiho at 7:47 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is why I predict there will be none. Some non-trivial amount of users will leave at least for a while, but the vast majority will remain. With no credible alternatives in sight, many of the leavers will eventually come back.
Reddit was in the right state at the right time during Digg’s demise. I’m skeptical of any current Reddit alternatives being good enough to be a viable migration target with growth potential or staying power.
posted by jklaiho at 7:47 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
The folks leading the charge against the third party app elimination are moderators, and it is wrong IMHO consider them free riders. They are generating value for Reddit.
This. I, uh, find it really funny here on Metafilter, where our big old site 'brand' is that we value our moderation enough to make it one of the largest core expenses for our site, that anyone would discount or minimize either the value or the labor that good moderation requires. Personally, several of the subs I am on focus on topics where the moderation is absolutely necessary to enforce rules that can foster discussion worth having. If those moderation teams vanished, or even had different opinions about certain rules the sub has put together, I would be gone.
For example, I am working on training some service tasks into my youngest dog that I hope will be a useful support for me, but service dog training communities are, uh, shall we say fraught for a wide variety of reasons. The r/service_dogs community enforces a number of rules that make the space usable at all, such as banning "fake-spotting" (wherein people try to identify "fake" disabled people using disability aids in public--bad enough for other aids, absolutely legion in service dogs, and totally beside the point of a poorly handled or managed dog in public: you can legally eject any dog that is not under handler control or is being disruptive from a public space, "legitimate" or not). There's also a lot of misinformation in the topic space, and the mods spend a lot of time aggressively weeding out misconceptions and removing outright false commentary. Without them and their work, the space would be completely useless. Reddit itself brings value only in that it 'syndicates' the forum and makes it easier for people to comment without a forum-specific login, and that can be easily replaced; the vast majority of value comes from the moderators.
For what it's worth, the first subs I saw joining the walkout were subs focused on disability in solidarity with r/blind, and the general concerns about moderation tools proliferated later. There is a huge breakdown in trust with moderation, and several subs I spend time in had discussions on the site on why moderators don't trust Reddit's promises anymore: because there has been a persistent lack of support on the site for moderators asking for the tools that would let them effectively handle various ongoing problems. I can't really blame longtime moderating users for not being willing to kick a football again.
If the subs I am following leave, I will follow them. I really hope they don't go to facebook, but at the end of the day I am here for the content, not the site structure.
posted by sciatrix at 7:49 AM on June 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
This. I, uh, find it really funny here on Metafilter, where our big old site 'brand' is that we value our moderation enough to make it one of the largest core expenses for our site, that anyone would discount or minimize either the value or the labor that good moderation requires. Personally, several of the subs I am on focus on topics where the moderation is absolutely necessary to enforce rules that can foster discussion worth having. If those moderation teams vanished, or even had different opinions about certain rules the sub has put together, I would be gone.
For example, I am working on training some service tasks into my youngest dog that I hope will be a useful support for me, but service dog training communities are, uh, shall we say fraught for a wide variety of reasons. The r/service_dogs community enforces a number of rules that make the space usable at all, such as banning "fake-spotting" (wherein people try to identify "fake" disabled people using disability aids in public--bad enough for other aids, absolutely legion in service dogs, and totally beside the point of a poorly handled or managed dog in public: you can legally eject any dog that is not under handler control or is being disruptive from a public space, "legitimate" or not). There's also a lot of misinformation in the topic space, and the mods spend a lot of time aggressively weeding out misconceptions and removing outright false commentary. Without them and their work, the space would be completely useless. Reddit itself brings value only in that it 'syndicates' the forum and makes it easier for people to comment without a forum-specific login, and that can be easily replaced; the vast majority of value comes from the moderators.
For what it's worth, the first subs I saw joining the walkout were subs focused on disability in solidarity with r/blind, and the general concerns about moderation tools proliferated later. There is a huge breakdown in trust with moderation, and several subs I spend time in had discussions on the site on why moderators don't trust Reddit's promises anymore: because there has been a persistent lack of support on the site for moderators asking for the tools that would let them effectively handle various ongoing problems. I can't really blame longtime moderating users for not being willing to kick a football again.
If the subs I am following leave, I will follow them. I really hope they don't go to facebook, but at the end of the day I am here for the content, not the site structure.
posted by sciatrix at 7:49 AM on June 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
Google should just acquire Reddit and put an end to all of this. If you can't append "reddit" to search terms, Google loses an embarrassingly big chunk of its utility overnight.
Yup. I realized that Google had utterly failed when I started to append site:reddit.com on almost every search query because searches by themselves had such shitty results. And it’s not even that Reddit is exactly great answers, but it’s not a dizzying array of content farms.
It’s similar to how I used to search forums on google- I forget how they had that feature, only that they removed that too, and it had the downstream effect of kneecapping a lot of those sites. I mean it had prior.
Google broke the web, they keep breaking it more. Reddit felt more like the old web, niche topics and people centered, but that’s been changing for a while. But I couldn’t see it’s usefulness surviving IPO anyway. It’s still incredibly disappointing.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:49 AM on June 12, 2023 [22 favorites]
Yup. I realized that Google had utterly failed when I started to append site:reddit.com on almost every search query because searches by themselves had such shitty results. And it’s not even that Reddit is exactly great answers, but it’s not a dizzying array of content farms.
It’s similar to how I used to search forums on google- I forget how they had that feature, only that they removed that too, and it had the downstream effect of kneecapping a lot of those sites. I mean it had prior.
Google broke the web, they keep breaking it more. Reddit felt more like the old web, niche topics and people centered, but that’s been changing for a while. But I couldn’t see it’s usefulness surviving IPO anyway. It’s still incredibly disappointing.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 7:49 AM on June 12, 2023 [22 favorites]
In retrospect it's remarkable that Reddit remained a relatively useful part of the internet for as long as it did. But once my feed started being flooded with "suggested" posts from shitty subreddits a few months back it was apparent that the party was finally ending. I guess that was probably part of the IPO buildup too. "Here's some random shitty content we scraped off the bottom of the internet, please interact with it while also using our shitty app and preferably paying us money for the privilege."
As a person who enjoys learning things and sharing what I've learned with others I find myself gravitating back to Wikipedia. It's not that any of the problems that drove me and thousands of other editors away have gotten better (maybe some of them have a little), but it hasn't been getting worse at nearly the speed of the rest of the internet.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:54 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
As a person who enjoys learning things and sharing what I've learned with others I find myself gravitating back to Wikipedia. It's not that any of the problems that drove me and thousands of other editors away have gotten better (maybe some of them have a little), but it hasn't been getting worse at nearly the speed of the rest of the internet.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:54 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
I feel there's extra traffic on some associated Discords right now, but that's not exactly a step up along an axis of free access/ empowering users.
posted by RobotHero at 7:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by RobotHero at 7:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
usersMODS are on strike.
On the other hand, it does cost money to run a service as large as Reddit, and it's fair to ask commercial third-party app developers to pay. From the numbers I have seen, Apollo charges $1.50/month for premium access, and with the changes they would have to pay Reddit $1.50/month for API access. Thus requiring them to raise their subscription fees from the price of a bad cup of coffee to the price of a decent cup of coffee. This doesn't strike me as exorbitant.
Of course, these are two sides of the same coin: It is risky for your business model to rely on someone else giving away something (moderation labor / API access) for free, in perpetuity.
posted by 3j0hn at 7:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hopped on reddit this morning and left a few scabby subreddits. This strike seems too short to be effective though.
posted by joeyh at 7:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by joeyh at 7:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Other things to know about Spez/Huffman and the rising water temp and background noise:
He's on record saying he thinks he's going to be part of the ruling class after major social upheaval.
He's pro crypto currency and has tried to foist both crypto and NFTs on reddit, which were both massive failures and widely rejected as the dumbest thing the internet has seen in a long time.
Apparently he used to be one of the mods of /r/jailbait, and also made some kind of custom "pimp" award for a mod friend that took on the torch.
And, yeah, he's been caught editing other people's content and directly manipulating the database and otherwise being dishonest.
He basically has blood on his hands regarding Aaron Schwartz by refusing or stonewalling evidence that would have helped clear him.
There's even more "fuck /u/spez" stuff but this is off the top of my head.
This user revolt is not happening in a vacuum and isn't a new sentiment.
posted by loquacious at 7:56 AM on June 12, 2023 [56 favorites]
He's on record saying he thinks he's going to be part of the ruling class after major social upheaval.
He's pro crypto currency and has tried to foist both crypto and NFTs on reddit, which were both massive failures and widely rejected as the dumbest thing the internet has seen in a long time.
Apparently he used to be one of the mods of /r/jailbait, and also made some kind of custom "pimp" award for a mod friend that took on the torch.
And, yeah, he's been caught editing other people's content and directly manipulating the database and otherwise being dishonest.
He basically has blood on his hands regarding Aaron Schwartz by refusing or stonewalling evidence that would have helped clear him.
There's even more "fuck /u/spez" stuff but this is off the top of my head.
This user revolt is not happening in a vacuum and isn't a new sentiment.
posted by loquacious at 7:56 AM on June 12, 2023 [56 favorites]
I feel there's extra traffic on some associated Discords right now, but that's not exactly a step up along an axis of free access/ empowering users.
oh man, don't get me started on discord--on the one hand, it allows you to bypass some of the costs of moderation by keeping groups small and unable for bad actors to locate, which the Old Internet largely did by virtue of simply having too many groups to filter through; on the other hand, it is also a walled garden, which means that it's harder to discover for new potential users and impossible to index conversations for learning. Essentially discord makes it so, so much harder to lurk... or find interesting things you might otherwise not find.
posted by sciatrix at 8:00 AM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
oh man, don't get me started on discord--on the one hand, it allows you to bypass some of the costs of moderation by keeping groups small and unable for bad actors to locate, which the Old Internet largely did by virtue of simply having too many groups to filter through; on the other hand, it is also a walled garden, which means that it's harder to discover for new potential users and impossible to index conversations for learning. Essentially discord makes it so, so much harder to lurk... or find interesting things you might otherwise not find.
posted by sciatrix at 8:00 AM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
>Apparently he used to be one of the mods of /r/jailbait
I saw several users point out that back in the day you could just add random people as mods to arbitrary subs long enough to take screenshots. Apparently one of them modded a sub with Obama and Snoop Dogg at one point, thanks to this little ”feature”.
Haven’t used the site for long enough myself to verify this, but while Spez is a dick, this bit at least might not be accurate. (Not that I’d be shocked if he actually modded it.)
posted by jklaiho at 8:02 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I saw several users point out that back in the day you could just add random people as mods to arbitrary subs long enough to take screenshots. Apparently one of them modded a sub with Obama and Snoop Dogg at one point, thanks to this little ”feature”.
Haven’t used the site for long enough myself to verify this, but while Spez is a dick, this bit at least might not be accurate. (Not that I’d be shocked if he actually modded it.)
posted by jklaiho at 8:02 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
This part seems key:
over the past three years, r/blind and another moderator, u/rumster, had reached out to Reddit repeatedly over accessibility concerns and had “received no substantive response.”
Why on earth would anyone believe Reddit corporate's quickly announced promises about accessibility now? They've never given much of a fuck about it before.
posted by mediareport at 8:04 AM on June 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
over the past three years, r/blind and another moderator, u/rumster, had reached out to Reddit repeatedly over accessibility concerns and had “received no substantive response.”
Why on earth would anyone believe Reddit corporate's quickly announced promises about accessibility now? They've never given much of a fuck about it before.
posted by mediareport at 8:04 AM on June 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
"are you claiming that metafilter makes money."
It makes enough money to employ several people.
If you're going to claim that it doesn't make money based on what the financial statements say then you have to extend that same grace to every big corporation that doesn't pay taxes because it's technically not making a net profit.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
It makes enough money to employ several people.
If you're going to claim that it doesn't make money based on what the financial statements say then you have to extend that same grace to every big corporation that doesn't pay taxes because it's technically not making a net profit.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's nice to see this community come around on the potential for Reddit to host small, niche, kind groups of people. I've been commenting on /r/CFB since... ugh, 2012? And become a lot more unapologetically active on reddit on the last five years. And I have taken at least small comfort in the fact faceless corporations tasked with overseeing a large telecommunication institution are less likely to embrace dangerous antisocial ideals than egomaniacal individual billionaires are....
I have no solution to this. I understand Reddit is a business, but also it's consistently gross attitude towards taking care of the smaller communities that use it makes the status quo untenable.
I'm just going to leave a small comment wishing for horses. I really wish we lived in a time where there was political capacity to make a public investment in this kind of of technology. It doesn't even have to be on the level of the public investment in the whole-ly government run organization (a la the successful tradition of public libraries). But I wish there existed a corporation akin to the BBC, PBS, or AFP or the Post Office that received 10 million dollar grant each year to run servers in exchange for hosting the tools that made it easier for public forums to exist, and easier for trusted people within those communities to run those forums. It could advertise or whatever. It could sell extras. But it would at least no longer be guided by the ethos of maximizing value for shareholders at the expense of removing utility for the public. Sure it would be different from Reddit in 10,000 small ways, but I wish that option existed.
posted by midmarch snowman at 8:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [26 favorites]
I have no solution to this. I understand Reddit is a business, but also it's consistently gross attitude towards taking care of the smaller communities that use it makes the status quo untenable.
I'm just going to leave a small comment wishing for horses. I really wish we lived in a time where there was political capacity to make a public investment in this kind of of technology. It doesn't even have to be on the level of the public investment in the whole-ly government run organization (a la the successful tradition of public libraries). But I wish there existed a corporation akin to the BBC, PBS, or AFP or the Post Office that received 10 million dollar grant each year to run servers in exchange for hosting the tools that made it easier for public forums to exist, and easier for trusted people within those communities to run those forums. It could advertise or whatever. It could sell extras. But it would at least no longer be guided by the ethos of maximizing value for shareholders at the expense of removing utility for the public. Sure it would be different from Reddit in 10,000 small ways, but I wish that option existed.
posted by midmarch snowman at 8:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [26 favorites]
Jacqueline, are you ignoring that moderators are paid here and not on Reddit? I don't know how it's an equivalency, otherwise.
Hell, people aren't even against "reddit making a profit". People are against "reddit making a profit by charging exorbitant prices for API access", when they could have a) priced it lower b) bundled it with Reddit Premium c) worked with the people providing value for their site, rather than springing it on them with little notice.
posted by sagc at 8:12 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
Hell, people aren't even against "reddit making a profit". People are against "reddit making a profit by charging exorbitant prices for API access", when they could have a) priced it lower b) bundled it with Reddit Premium c) worked with the people providing value for their site, rather than springing it on them with little notice.
posted by sagc at 8:12 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yup. I realized that Google had utterly failed when I started to append site:reddit.com on almost every search query because searches by themselves had such shitty results. And it’s not even that Reddit is exactly great answers, but it’s not a dizzying array of content farms.
If some of those subs stay down it's going to be the burning of Google's Library of Alexandria. Don't know if the other search engines are any better.
posted by kingdead at 8:16 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
If some of those subs stay down it's going to be the burning of Google's Library of Alexandria. Don't know if the other search engines are any better.
posted by kingdead at 8:16 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
kingdead- I think this is from the archive.org team, there is an effort to archive Reddit. At this point in time if everything went and stayed dark, it'd be like what was managed to be saved from geocities. But there has been a little more acknowledgement of this given the blackouts. To stick with your analogy, there are people running into the burning library and carrying out scrolls. Let's hope they manage to get most of it.
posted by Hactar at 8:22 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 8:22 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Why on earth would anyone believe Reddit corporate's quickly announced promises about accessibility now? They've never given much of a fuck about it before.
Exactly.
The fact that Reddit is not natively accessible is an absolute joke. Reddit has literally manufactured this problem in a universe of solved problems; mods and bolt-on third-party apps shouldn't be necessary to make what is basically a web forum accessible. It's staggering.
The only way to explain this is through some permutation of incompetence, malice, and greed.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
Exactly.
The fact that Reddit is not natively accessible is an absolute joke. Reddit has literally manufactured this problem in a universe of solved problems; mods and bolt-on third-party apps shouldn't be necessary to make what is basically a web forum accessible. It's staggering.
The only way to explain this is through some permutation of incompetence, malice, and greed.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [18 favorites]
I bet the biggest subreddits will find they're easier to replace than they think.
/r/IAmA never really recovered. As linked above, this whole process brought me to mind of the Trust Thermocline, as well as Cory Doctorow's extremely trenchant post and coining of the term Enshittification.
posted by tclark at 8:30 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
/r/IAmA never really recovered. As linked above, this whole process brought me to mind of the Trust Thermocline, as well as Cory Doctorow's extremely trenchant post and coining of the term Enshittification.
posted by tclark at 8:30 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
My god there has been a lot of enshittification this year.
posted by alspacka at 8:31 AM on June 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by alspacka at 8:31 AM on June 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
The subs won’t stay down. Reddit can boot the mods at any time and either use their existing mod request process to let new mods take charge or they can appoint temporary mods for key subreddits. The exploitative model of attracting mods based on some desire for social standing and then expecting burnout and turnover hasn’t changed.
posted by interogative mood at 8:32 AM on June 12, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 8:32 AM on June 12, 2023
The value of Reddit for me is local news, events, politics, etc. Archiving it does nothing to help, unless I want to know what Philadelphians were mad about in July of 2022. For the most part it is a complement to Philly Twitter.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:40 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:40 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
> My god there has been a lot of enshittification this year.
”Enshittification” really should be the Oxford Word of the Year for 2023.
posted by jklaiho at 8:41 AM on June 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
”Enshittification” really should be the Oxford Word of the Year for 2023.
posted by jklaiho at 8:41 AM on June 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
Should X make money?
lmao this line of questioning. Of course not, making money is where the problems start for just about everything.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
lmao this line of questioning. Of course not, making money is where the problems start for just about everything.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Per Reddark, 7228/7806 subs have gone dark at Reddit, aka private. That is 28,464 moderators + 2,768,278,164 combined users.
posted by tlwright at 8:48 AM on June 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by tlwright at 8:48 AM on June 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm never going to use your stupid fucking app. Quit asking me.
Hear, hear. Still refuse to ever read ONE WEBSITE on a separate app.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:50 AM on June 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
Hear, hear. Still refuse to ever read ONE WEBSITE on a separate app.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:50 AM on June 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
Per Reddark, 7228/7806 subs have gone dark at Reddit, aka private.
It's 2023 and certainly there must be some (probably more than a few) scabby subreddits which are glorifying their defiance of the call to strike.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's 2023 and certainly there must be some (probably more than a few) scabby subreddits which are glorifying their defiance of the call to strike.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cory Doctorow's extremely trenchant post and coining of the term Enshittification
I just want to put a plug in for "crapification" which I believe was coined by Yves Smith way back, maybe even before the Great Financial Crisis.
posted by Pembquist at 8:58 AM on June 12, 2023
I just want to put a plug in for "crapification" which I believe was coined by Yves Smith way back, maybe even before the Great Financial Crisis.
posted by Pembquist at 8:58 AM on June 12, 2023
I wanted to check a Tolkien quote, and got good results from [reddit tolkien], but that was for finding groups more than posts.
Maybe it's just the site:reddit.com commend that doesn't work?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:03 AM on June 12, 2023
Maybe it's just the site:reddit.com commend that doesn't work?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:03 AM on June 12, 2023
Hactar, most of it is kind of useless, the problem is lack of alternative.
posted by kingdead at 9:17 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kingdead at 9:17 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mods, Rhaomi's is the better reddit post, feel free to merge the quite good comments from here into that thread.
(what no auto-mod-merge-tool? galloping gallywag pony request soon)
posted by sammyo at 9:21 AM on June 12, 2023
(what no auto-mod-merge-tool? galloping gallywag pony request soon)
posted by sammyo at 9:21 AM on June 12, 2023
That posts and comments per minute graph is confusing me--it looks almost completely normal, but how can that be with so many huge subreddits blacked out?
posted by rhymedirective at 9:23 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rhymedirective at 9:23 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the plus side, I'm back on metafilter and actually reading books.
Even without all this API stuff, reddit has been sliding for years. Other than niche subs, I'll just migrate my interactions on existing message boards.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 9:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Even without all this API stuff, reddit has been sliding for years. Other than niche subs, I'll just migrate my interactions on existing message boards.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 9:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
how can that be with so many huge subreddits blacked out?
Because almost all of Reddit's user base doesn't care about this, and they are commenting in the subs that still exist. And if they are using 1st party apps or the website, the protesting subreddits have just disappeared, and different subreddits are getting recommended in their place. Millions of users probably haven't even noticed the protest is happening.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 9:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Because almost all of Reddit's user base doesn't care about this, and they are commenting in the subs that still exist. And if they are using 1st party apps or the website, the protesting subreddits have just disappeared, and different subreddits are getting recommended in their place. Millions of users probably haven't even noticed the protest is happening.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 9:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Because almost all of Reddit's user base doesn't care about this, and they are commenting in the subs that still exist. And if they are using 1st party apps or the website, the protesting subreddits have just disappeared, and different subreddits are getting recommended in their place. Millions of users probably haven't even noticed the protest is happening.
This explanation doesn't make sense. People are just randomly posting at the same amount in totally random subreddits they've never visited before?
posted by rhymedirective at 9:32 AM on June 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
This explanation doesn't make sense. People are just randomly posting at the same amount in totally random subreddits they've never visited before?
posted by rhymedirective at 9:32 AM on June 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
People are just randomly posting at the same amount in totally random subreddits they've never visited before?
Yeah, it's almost as if all these Reddit users are there for the content, and not for the mods.
When the "moat" of your subreddit consists of your subscribers just firing up a new subreddit and moving there, then it's not really a moat at all.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 9:38 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it's almost as if all these Reddit users are there for the content, and not for the mods.
When the "moat" of your subreddit consists of your subscribers just firing up a new subreddit and moving there, then it's not really a moat at all.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 9:38 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m thinking Bots are the reason for a lot of the comments that are still flowing. There has been a massive increase in the same kinds of posts and comments across all subreddits in the last year, accelerating in the last six months. It’s a lot of content I agree with, at a surface political level, but so consistent I just can’t help but wonder how much astroturfing is going on with the large subreddits.
Niche communities have great content. I wish there was an alternative Reddit-like space for a migration. Has it been proposed that one be built? I saw a few threads recommending alternatives. I almost listed Metafilter but I don’t want this space desecrated in case some idiotic or bad intentioned community decides en mass to head this way for LULZ.
posted by glaucon at 9:42 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
Niche communities have great content. I wish there was an alternative Reddit-like space for a migration. Has it been proposed that one be built? I saw a few threads recommending alternatives. I almost listed Metafilter but I don’t want this space desecrated in case some idiotic or bad intentioned community decides en mass to head this way for LULZ.
posted by glaucon at 9:42 AM on June 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
how can that be with so many huge subreddits blacked out?
I wondered the same thing. I suspect bots / auto-reposts after that massive, massive dip. I hope someone does an assessment of User names, subreds, and times of postings during the 48-hour blackout after it is over.
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:44 AM on June 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
I wondered the same thing. I suspect bots / auto-reposts after that massive, massive dip. I hope someone does an assessment of User names, subreds, and times of postings during the 48-hour blackout after it is over.
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:44 AM on June 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
I almost listed Metafilter but I don’t want this space desecrated in case some idiotic or bad intentioned community decides en mass to head this way for LULZ.
Metafilter is a bad fit for Reddit anyway. The strength of Reddit as a site is the ability to curate topic-specific subcommunities; Metafilter structurally is designed to, as much as possible, expose users to all possible content types within each page's subtype. This is its own strength, but Metafilter makes a bad Reddit replacement just as Reddit would be a bad replacement for Metafilter.
Different use cases for different types of community structure.
posted by sciatrix at 9:46 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Metafilter is a bad fit for Reddit anyway. The strength of Reddit as a site is the ability to curate topic-specific subcommunities; Metafilter structurally is designed to, as much as possible, expose users to all possible content types within each page's subtype. This is its own strength, but Metafilter makes a bad Reddit replacement just as Reddit would be a bad replacement for Metafilter.
Different use cases for different types of community structure.
posted by sciatrix at 9:46 AM on June 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I have nothing to add other than to say the Reddit reboot somewhere should be called Redidit.
posted by emelenjr at 9:50 AM on June 12, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 9:50 AM on June 12, 2023 [31 favorites]
I wondered the same thing. I suspect bots / auto-reposts after that massive, massive dip. I hope someone does an assessment of User names, subreds, and times of postings during the 48-hour blackout after it is over.
I'd be interested in seeing this, too, but I doubt your hypothesis. Based on what I see, I'd hypothesize that it's normal users posting/commenting a similar amount but in a smaller number of subreddits.
The vast, vast majority of users do not care about, and are not directly impacted by, the API issue.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 10:16 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd be interested in seeing this, too, but I doubt your hypothesis. Based on what I see, I'd hypothesize that it's normal users posting/commenting a similar amount but in a smaller number of subreddits.
The vast, vast majority of users do not care about, and are not directly impacted by, the API issue.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 10:16 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
That graph doesn’t look like it it shows “people posting the same amount” to me, though it really hasn’t been nearly long enough to tell.
I do think there’s some gap between how much moderators are invested in this protest and how much the average user is. r/NBA is out during the finals - bold move on behalf of the people running it, but I’m sure plenty of users are not happy about it. Given a long enough timeline you might see big subreddits being recreated but that’s not going to happen within a couple of days for the same reasons everybody can’t just move to another site overnight, either.
People are just randomly posting at the same amount in totally random subreddits they've never visited before?
If I load my reddit feed right now I see a lot of niche music subs, and second or tier subs for various niche interests. Which… is kind of what I’m there for (I only subscribe to a handful of 1M+ subs) but even granting that it’s a major exaggeration to say you wouldn’t notice anything different.
posted by atoxyl at 10:20 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do think there’s some gap between how much moderators are invested in this protest and how much the average user is. r/NBA is out during the finals - bold move on behalf of the people running it, but I’m sure plenty of users are not happy about it. Given a long enough timeline you might see big subreddits being recreated but that’s not going to happen within a couple of days for the same reasons everybody can’t just move to another site overnight, either.
People are just randomly posting at the same amount in totally random subreddits they've never visited before?
If I load my reddit feed right now I see a lot of niche music subs, and second or tier subs for various niche interests. Which… is kind of what I’m there for (I only subscribe to a handful of 1M+ subs) but even granting that it’s a major exaggeration to say you wouldn’t notice anything different.
posted by atoxyl at 10:20 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Why do you feel entitled to free labor from website creators and contributors?
There's a big difference between paying the people laboring behind the scenes a reasonable wage and making profit sufficient to justify a several billion dollar valuation. Not making a substantial profit does not imply people doing shit for you for free.
It never ceases to amaze me how VC culture has led so many people to believe that you may as well have been working for free if you don't win the lottery. Life isn't a casino, it's not all or nothing.
posted by wierdo at 10:22 AM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
There's a big difference between paying the people laboring behind the scenes a reasonable wage and making profit sufficient to justify a several billion dollar valuation. Not making a substantial profit does not imply people doing shit for you for free.
It never ceases to amaze me how VC culture has led so many people to believe that you may as well have been working for free if you don't win the lottery. Life isn't a casino, it's not all or nothing.
posted by wierdo at 10:22 AM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
I wondered the same thing. I suspect bots / auto-reposts after that massive, massive dip. I hope someone does an assessment of User names, subreds, and times of postings during the 48-hour blackout after it is over.
At least some of the activity is automated. I've seen an uptick in GPT-powered bots across various subreddits over the last couple of weeks.
And if you're Reddit admins, isn't this exactly what you'd do? Spin up a couple thousand GPT bots, use them to keep activity and engagement numbers as steady as possible, make it seem as if the site can pull off business as usual in the absence of its most engaged (or at least most vocal) users and mods, and maybe Fidelity will decide you're a good investment after all.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 10:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
At least some of the activity is automated. I've seen an uptick in GPT-powered bots across various subreddits over the last couple of weeks.
And if you're Reddit admins, isn't this exactly what you'd do? Spin up a couple thousand GPT bots, use them to keep activity and engagement numbers as steady as possible, make it seem as if the site can pull off business as usual in the absence of its most engaged (or at least most vocal) users and mods, and maybe Fidelity will decide you're a good investment after all.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 10:25 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
That graph doesn’t look like it it shows “people posting the same amount” to me, though it really hasn’t been nearly long enough to tell.
There is also no scale on the vertical axis, so….. who knows what the percentage decline is.
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:27 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is also no scale on the vertical axis, so….. who knows what the percentage decline is.
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:27 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a regular user “they’re selling my data for cheap” and “they’re selling my data at an exorbitant price” are each unattractive options in their own way. That said, if old.reddit is on the chopping block in the future, I’m out, so I’m glad to see somebody trying to flex some power over something.
posted by atoxyl at 10:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 10:28 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
>> Why do you feel entitled to free labor from website creators and contributors?
> There's a big difference between paying the people laboring behind the scenes a reasonable wage and making profit sufficient to justify a several billion dollar valuation. Not making a substantial profit does not imply people doing shit for you for free.
there's also something deeply ironic about how the people who've enabled the reddit owners' delusion that their website should make money are:
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:48 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
> There's a big difference between paying the people laboring behind the scenes a reasonable wage and making profit sufficient to justify a several billion dollar valuation. Not making a substantial profit does not imply people doing shit for you for free.
there's also something deeply ironic about how the people who've enabled the reddit owners' delusion that their website should make money are:
- unpaid
- the ones leading this protest.
- group texts
- ancient, unprofitable community weblogs
- academic publications
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:48 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I went and logged out of reddit from my work computer (IDK if that's a metric they use, but besides not visiting - I figure that's another message). I already got a pop up a while back pleading with me to use "the official reddit app" like fuck you. Get outta here, you cretins.
posted by symbioid at 11:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by symbioid at 11:08 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
We had a sort-of public version of sort-of Reddit before — USENET. It was destroyed by spammers. I doubt it would work as well as it did before (and I don't think it worked that well before, frankly) on today's Internet.
(yes, it's still around. My understanding is that it's mainly used for file-sharing these days 🏴☠️)
posted by Ampersand692 at 11:51 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
(yes, it's still around. My understanding is that it's mainly used for file-sharing these days 🏴☠️)
posted by Ampersand692 at 11:51 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Apparently they've been running an experiment over the past month of blocking mobile browser access entirely.
posted by foxfirefey at 12:12 PM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by foxfirefey at 12:12 PM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's not like someone just stumbled on the only user experiment they're running either, it's in their interests as a company to experiment with things like filtering what information users see, how much artificially generated bot traffic you can pass off as real to fool real users into thinking they're interacting with other humans, etc.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:21 PM on June 12, 2023
posted by jason_steakums at 12:21 PM on June 12, 2023
I think comparing USENET and Reddit is similar to comparing pagers and smart phones. The technology of running a web forum has evolved and the tech and user-skills that has developed are reflective of the time that has passed and the changes to the usage patterns of the internet.
A Reddit style forum has numerous features that allow it function better than Spam-Filled USENET or the phpBB forums that are still fantastic resources on tonymacx86, dpreviews, or... awww xkcd forums are still down.. sad...
I believe the flexible mod system has a little less learning curve and makes it easier to bring in new people to moderate a community on reddit. The upvote system has it's down sides, and it's probably not the best fit for every community, but it does make filtering out garbage on very highly visible forums or posts a lot easier. Cross-posting works better and it helps communities discover adjacent spaces... or even possibly migrate more easily if a certain space becomes too toxic (thinking of /r/nhl versus /r/hockey as potential example here, but honestly I'm not active enough in that community to say if the established narrative is accurate). All of these are forum technologies that reddit doesn't have a monopoly on, so I feel like a modern version of a partially public funded forum site isn't that insane.
I think reddit has also taught some people how to better use forums. In the same way new smart phone updates can teach people how to better use messaging. Having community specific rules have had the effect that people seem a little more easy adapting to the fact that some comments on /r/NatureIsMetal aren't going to fly on/r/aww in the same ways your friends may accept some behavior in their home that they won't accept in public or at their parents homes.
posted by midmarch snowman at 12:23 PM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
A Reddit style forum has numerous features that allow it function better than Spam-Filled USENET or the phpBB forums that are still fantastic resources on tonymacx86, dpreviews, or... awww xkcd forums are still down.. sad...
I believe the flexible mod system has a little less learning curve and makes it easier to bring in new people to moderate a community on reddit. The upvote system has it's down sides, and it's probably not the best fit for every community, but it does make filtering out garbage on very highly visible forums or posts a lot easier. Cross-posting works better and it helps communities discover adjacent spaces... or even possibly migrate more easily if a certain space becomes too toxic (thinking of /r/nhl versus /r/hockey as potential example here, but honestly I'm not active enough in that community to say if the established narrative is accurate). All of these are forum technologies that reddit doesn't have a monopoly on, so I feel like a modern version of a partially public funded forum site isn't that insane.
I think reddit has also taught some people how to better use forums. In the same way new smart phone updates can teach people how to better use messaging. Having community specific rules have had the effect that people seem a little more easy adapting to the fact that some comments on /r/NatureIsMetal aren't going to fly on/r/aww in the same ways your friends may accept some behavior in their home that they won't accept in public or at their parents homes.
posted by midmarch snowman at 12:23 PM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
websites should not make money.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:25 AM on June 12 [2 favorites +] [!]
Eponysterical.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:48 PM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:25 AM on June 12 [2 favorites +] [!]
Eponysterical.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:48 PM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Apparently they've been running an experiment over the past month of blocking mobile browser access entirely.
As almost exclusively a mobile browser user of that site who doesn't use the app, this is unsurprising because I feel the hate and its been pushing me away. The default position is "let's make this a pain to use, see and establish preferred settings with constant exhortations to download this app"
posted by Selena777 at 1:39 PM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
As almost exclusively a mobile browser user of that site who doesn't use the app, this is unsurprising because I feel the hate and its been pushing me away. The default position is "let's make this a pain to use, see and establish preferred settings with constant exhortations to download this app"
posted by Selena777 at 1:39 PM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Apparently they've been running an experiment over the past month of blocking mobile browser access entirely."
I don't think this is the first time. I used to refuse to use social apps like Reddit, Twitter, Imgur, but I finally gave up and installed Reddit's app some time ago because it was difficult to interact with the site using a mobile browser.
I can't recall if it outright blocked mobile or just applied enough friction I went ahead and installed it, but I want to say it was pretty much refusing to let me interact with Reddit at all on my phone sans app.
posted by jzb at 1:40 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think this is the first time. I used to refuse to use social apps like Reddit, Twitter, Imgur, but I finally gave up and installed Reddit's app some time ago because it was difficult to interact with the site using a mobile browser.
I can't recall if it outright blocked mobile or just applied enough friction I went ahead and installed it, but I want to say it was pretty much refusing to let me interact with Reddit at all on my phone sans app.
posted by jzb at 1:40 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Jacqueline, are you ignoring that moderators are paid here and not on Reddit? I don't know how it's an equivalency, otherwise."
I'm responding to the statement "websites should not make money"
I'm not saying that Reddit and MetaFilter are equivalent, just pointing out the irony of someone commenting that websites should not make money on a website that not only makes money but the commenter must have also paid at least $5 to post on.
"Hell, people aren't even against 'reddit making a profit'. People are against 'reddit making a profit by charging exorbitant prices for API access'"
The person I am responding to stated that websites should not make money through any means other than taking donations.
So yes, there actually are people who are against Reddit making a profit, right here on this very post.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:45 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm responding to the statement "websites should not make money"
I'm not saying that Reddit and MetaFilter are equivalent, just pointing out the irony of someone commenting that websites should not make money on a website that not only makes money but the commenter must have also paid at least $5 to post on.
"Hell, people aren't even against 'reddit making a profit'. People are against 'reddit making a profit by charging exorbitant prices for API access'"
The person I am responding to stated that websites should not make money through any means other than taking donations.
So yes, there actually are people who are against Reddit making a profit, right here on this very post.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:45 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Jacqueline, in that case, I also expect you and the poster might disagree about "making money" vs "making a profit", also, not sure that I'd take the lowercase bombastic statements of lowercase bombastic statements as full policy positions.
posted by sagc at 1:49 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 1:49 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
The blackout should continue until the API changes are abandoned entirely. Settle for nothing less.
posted by thoughtful_jester at 1:53 PM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by thoughtful_jester at 1:53 PM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
"People are just randomly posting at the same amount in totally random subreddits they've never visited before?"
I'm suddenly seeing posts from a bunch of subs that I subscribed to a while back but almost never saw because the more popular subs (now dark) drowned them out. I'm guessing I'm not the only one having this experience.
Also the app pushes posts from "related" subs in your feed, so even it every sub someone was subscribed to went dark, they would presumably still see posts from those. (That feature is actually pretty annoying and I have to keep muting subs that the algorithm thinks are related but actually aren't. Being in accounting subs means I get pushed posts from working moms, HR-only, etc. subs.)
posted by Jacqueline at 1:55 PM on June 12, 2023
I'm suddenly seeing posts from a bunch of subs that I subscribed to a while back but almost never saw because the more popular subs (now dark) drowned them out. I'm guessing I'm not the only one having this experience.
Also the app pushes posts from "related" subs in your feed, so even it every sub someone was subscribed to went dark, they would presumably still see posts from those. (That feature is actually pretty annoying and I have to keep muting subs that the algorithm thinks are related but actually aren't. Being in accounting subs means I get pushed posts from working moms, HR-only, etc. subs.)
posted by Jacqueline at 1:55 PM on June 12, 2023
I never really have a problem accessing or using Reddit via mobile browser (Safari). Yes, the prompt to get the app pops up, but I just dismiss it and go about my merry way. Idk.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 2:33 PM on June 12, 2023
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 2:33 PM on June 12, 2023
https://blackout.photon-reddit.com/ now has scales on the vertical axes.
Also noted that the numbers are based on the top 1,500 subreddits, so I think that skews the data substantially, considering it deselects all of the smaller communities that collectively make up a massive part of Reddit engagement.
Not seeing a huge dip in posts per minute, but DO see a big plunge in comments per minute. Kick the tires on my logic here, but I’d take that to indicate that human-user involvement has dropped a lot today. I’m curious to hear other interpretations of the data.
posted by Silvery Fish at 3:19 PM on June 12, 2023
Also noted that the numbers are based on the top 1,500 subreddits, so I think that skews the data substantially, considering it deselects all of the smaller communities that collectively make up a massive part of Reddit engagement.
Not seeing a huge dip in posts per minute, but DO see a big plunge in comments per minute. Kick the tires on my logic here, but I’d take that to indicate that human-user involvement has dropped a lot today. I’m curious to hear other interpretations of the data.
posted by Silvery Fish at 3:19 PM on June 12, 2023
If I can't use old.reddit then I am out of there. The 'new' version of reddit makes it a completely different and vastly inferior experience, and basically unusable for me.
Rich people aren't smart, they're just protected from their stupidity. Which then rolls downhill to everyone else. That's why there should be no rich people.
posted by seanmpuckett
The more I see of the human world, the more I think there should be a hard cap on personal wealth.
It is now crystal clear that allowing unrestricted personal fortunes is a fucking disaster for the human race.
And, yes, I am quite aware of just how difficult that would be to implement, politically and administratively. Hence pessimistic it ever will be.
It is risky for your business model to rely on someone else giving away something (moderation labor / API access) for free, in perpetuity.
posted by 3j0hn
Peer-review journal publishers have dined out lavishly on exactly that model for decades.
posted by Pouteria at 3:43 PM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Rich people aren't smart, they're just protected from their stupidity. Which then rolls downhill to everyone else. That's why there should be no rich people.
posted by seanmpuckett
The more I see of the human world, the more I think there should be a hard cap on personal wealth.
It is now crystal clear that allowing unrestricted personal fortunes is a fucking disaster for the human race.
And, yes, I am quite aware of just how difficult that would be to implement, politically and administratively. Hence pessimistic it ever will be.
It is risky for your business model to rely on someone else giving away something (moderation labor / API access) for free, in perpetuity.
posted by 3j0hn
Peer-review journal publishers have dined out lavishly on exactly that model for decades.
posted by Pouteria at 3:43 PM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are many historical precedents for capping personal wealth, from the Russian Revolution to Eisenhower's 1950's America. Of course, you can do your part to cap reddit owners' personal wealth.
posted by Vegiemon at 3:50 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Vegiemon at 3:50 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gang, I need Reddit back. Out of options, I started reading MetaTalk. Send halp.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 4:03 PM on June 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 4:03 PM on June 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
I am thankful for Metafilter still being here, and relatively unchanged, since the last time I logged in an embarrassing number of years ago....
posted by goml at 4:35 PM on June 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by goml at 4:35 PM on June 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
attempts to monetize any of these things inherently sabotage these things.
Ah, yes, otherwise known as "why I don't try to monetize my hobbies or writing, nobody's gonna pay for that."
I have stayed off looking at Reddit today because I'm not bored/at work, but tomorrow is gonna be rough.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:25 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ah, yes, otherwise known as "why I don't try to monetize my hobbies or writing, nobody's gonna pay for that."
I have stayed off looking at Reddit today because I'm not bored/at work, but tomorrow is gonna be rough.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:25 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
'67. As markets, as workers, we wonder why you're not listening. You seem to be speaking a different language.'
posted by clavdivs at 5:41 PM on June 12, 2023
posted by clavdivs at 5:41 PM on June 12, 2023
That posts and comments per minute graph is confusing me--it looks almost completely normal, but how can that be with so many huge subreddits blacked out?
They're still available to members, aren't they? Isn't that what 'private' means?
posted by dg at 6:08 PM on June 12, 2023
They're still available to members, aren't they? Isn't that what 'private' means?
posted by dg at 6:08 PM on June 12, 2023
I have stayed off looking at Reddit today because I'm not bored/at work, but tomorrow is gonna be rough.
Tomorrow is T**mp indictment day, so maybe we’ll get another all-day thread — tho I expect everything will be getting a little extra spicy round here. I’ve been jumping back and forth between the two Reddit threads and it hit me - I’m in a room full of people who have all quit smoking cigarettes on the same day. Edges are being to fray this evening. Tomorrow will be interesting.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:15 PM on June 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Tomorrow is T**mp indictment day, so maybe we’ll get another all-day thread — tho I expect everything will be getting a little extra spicy round here. I’ve been jumping back and forth between the two Reddit threads and it hit me - I’m in a room full of people who have all quit smoking cigarettes on the same day. Edges are being to fray this evening. Tomorrow will be interesting.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:15 PM on June 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Except peer review was never truly done for free.
Sure, somebody is paying for it, one way or another.
Just not the people making bank from it.
posted by Pouteria at 10:23 PM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sure, somebody is paying for it, one way or another.
Just not the people making bank from it.
posted by Pouteria at 10:23 PM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've been resisting opening Reddit for the last 24 hours or so and am pleased to see that my feed consists mostly of the same posts they were before I stopped looking at it, which means the blackout is doing it's job. Disappointed to see a couple of my most-used Subreddits haven't gone dark, but the traffic to them has clearly fallen.
I don't think it'll do anything, but I love to see people standing together regardless.
posted by daysocks at 2:48 AM on June 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't think it'll do anything, but I love to see people standing together regardless.
posted by daysocks at 2:48 AM on June 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
No matter what your feelings towards capitalism are, I think we can all agree that the largest problems emerge not when a company is "trying to make a profit" but "trying to maximize profits."
posted by AlSweigart at 7:57 AM on June 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 7:57 AM on June 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Can't find the mastodon post that referenced it, but apparently Reddit is blocking mentions of Lemmy -- and Lemmy subs -- and calling it spam. They really do seem to be following the Twitter/Musk handbook.
posted by terrapin at 8:03 AM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by terrapin at 8:03 AM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why does the bigger one not simply eat the smaller one?
(Bigger Reddit; smaller Apollo)
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:41 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Bigger Reddit; smaller Apollo)
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:41 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well the owner of Apollo suggested that and Spez called it a shakedown
posted by bq at 4:06 PM on June 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bq at 4:06 PM on June 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
If they're blocking mentions of Lemmy, it seems like they're actually being affected or think they could be.
posted by yangj08 at 11:54 PM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by yangj08 at 11:54 PM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's a thread on r/ModCoord where mods are listing their subreddits if they plan on 1) staying dark indefinitely until stated demands have been met, or 2) doing a once-a-week post restriction in solidarity on Tuesdays for the foreseeable future. r/steam and r/apple mods have said they plan an indefinite stoppage, e.g.
posted by mediareport at 6:16 AM on June 14, 2023
posted by mediareport at 6:16 AM on June 14, 2023
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We’ll see.
posted by glaucon at 5:11 AM on June 12, 2023 [16 favorites]