Aspect Ratios!
June 18, 2023 12:39 AM Subscribe
how TV screens made watching movies worse (or alternate VR version) is a 20-minute discussion rant from Youtuber noodle about the issues with home movie formats, TVs, and especially aspect ratios.
If that wasn't enough, there is the follow-up, ratios are a nightmare, consisting mostly of examples and discussion of cool aspect ratio use in cinema and gaming.
If that wasn't enough, there is the follow-up, ratios are a nightmare, consisting mostly of examples and discussion of cool aspect ratio use in cinema and gaming.
You do you, IDIC and live long and prosper, but I never understood that. I paid for the movie, so I want... the movie. Like it really is.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:07 AM on June 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:07 AM on June 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Thanks for posting this. Never heard of that guy's channel but I loved his style and opinions.
posted by chartreuse at 4:55 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by chartreuse at 4:55 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
He had me right up until he said that VR was the best way to watch movies.
posted by octothorpe at 6:13 AM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:13 AM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
The best (and by best I mean worst) pan and scan release had to be Seville's Canadian DVD release of Lynch's 'Lost Highway'. One for the ages.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:28 AM on June 18, 2023
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:28 AM on June 18, 2023
I remember as a kid watching the movie MASH (I was probably too young, and it was probably edited for TV, this would have been the early '80s) on TV. As kids we thought the movie had a "1970s" style of panning around shots in an odd, mechanical way, like a crappy electronic motor was moving the camera. We thought it was some bad '70s movie-making technique. Even as kids we noticed it! That's how bad and obvious it was!
This was us noticing "pan and scan" in its early days and hoo-boy was it terrible.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:31 AM on June 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
This was us noticing "pan and scan" in its early days and hoo-boy was it terrible.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:31 AM on June 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
on the one hand, I understand why one would be frustrated that this is still an issue, I kind of assumed with a widespread adoption of large wide screen,TVs and digital media but it was now truly easy to get the format of the movie that you wanted and don't understand why you mess with the format.
On the other hand, as someone who is old, all of this is so much better than watching the edited version of Aliens on the USA network, it truly is hard for me to get really jazzed about this. Truth is, even for the most visually stunning films, I probably do half of my watching on my phone. (though, the only movies that I *insist* on watching on a large TV with my full attention are MadMax Fury Road and the most recent Dune, so the fact you're limited in your format options, for the latter is a bummer).
Also, truth is, if you don't have a wall sized projector for the immersive experience, the way human vision works is your visual focus and attention really limited to a small spot of the screen. In that Shreck example, I imagine 98% of people watching wouldnt see that bush even on wide screen format until it entered the center or the screen, because that's where your visual focus is.
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:34 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, as someone who is old, all of this is so much better than watching the edited version of Aliens on the USA network, it truly is hard for me to get really jazzed about this. Truth is, even for the most visually stunning films, I probably do half of my watching on my phone. (though, the only movies that I *insist* on watching on a large TV with my full attention are MadMax Fury Road and the most recent Dune, so the fact you're limited in your format options, for the latter is a bummer).
Also, truth is, if you don't have a wall sized projector for the immersive experience, the way human vision works is your visual focus and attention really limited to a small spot of the screen. In that Shreck example, I imagine 98% of people watching wouldnt see that bush even on wide screen format until it entered the center or the screen, because that's where your visual focus is.
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:34 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Octothorpe: He had me right up until he said that VR was the best way to watch movies.
I listen to enough Tech Podcasts that i'm becoming gradually aware that there is a growing consensus among geeks that VR will become the gold standard for home movie watching as headsets improve. Whether VR is the next 3D or the next BluRay remains to be seen.
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:38 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I listen to enough Tech Podcasts that i'm becoming gradually aware that there is a growing consensus among geeks that VR will become the gold standard for home movie watching as headsets improve. Whether VR is the next 3D or the next BluRay remains to be seen.
posted by midmarch snowman at 6:38 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm no "cinephile" though I do, um... love movies. Thing is with these chopped up home versions, I never bother to research which parts are getting chopped. And 99% of the time it's either the first time I'm seeing a movie when I watch at home, or else I do not completely remember what the theatrical "correct" look was supposed to be. So it's hard to judge a lot of movies because of this chopped up presentation. Sometimes movies aren't really given a fair shake. And as a former art director of 20 years, yes, the look and cinematography of movies is a big part of my enjoyment.
Tl, dr: I hate cropped movies and TV shows.
(never watched a full movie on a phone and never will, BTW. Hard for me to believe people even bother to do that unless they have no other choices)
posted by SoberHighland at 6:40 AM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tl, dr: I hate cropped movies and TV shows.
(never watched a full movie on a phone and never will, BTW. Hard for me to believe people even bother to do that unless they have no other choices)
posted by SoberHighland at 6:40 AM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think there are two equally important, equally valid ways to think about movies: one, as a source of entertainment, and the second, as a form of art.
We don’t (normally) have this conversation about screen representations of 2D art: no one argues that Guernica should only be cropped to fit the aspect ratio of my iPad. I am one of a group of film enthusiasts who go back again and again to see how shots are framed; to track timing of cuts; to drink in the art of visual storytelling — the framing, what gets included in the frame, what gets left out, ya da ya da.
We can technologically have both options available now, and I hope that becomes the default — original aspect ratio, and aspect ratio optimized for filling the screen. (I also wish noodle had found some word other than”accessibility” for discussing “access to first-run in-theater movies on screens of a particular size.” There’s an important distinction between any access and preferred format.)
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:51 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
We don’t (normally) have this conversation about screen representations of 2D art: no one argues that Guernica should only be cropped to fit the aspect ratio of my iPad. I am one of a group of film enthusiasts who go back again and again to see how shots are framed; to track timing of cuts; to drink in the art of visual storytelling — the framing, what gets included in the frame, what gets left out, ya da ya da.
We can technologically have both options available now, and I hope that becomes the default — original aspect ratio, and aspect ratio optimized for filling the screen. (I also wish noodle had found some word other than”accessibility” for discussing “access to first-run in-theater movies on screens of a particular size.” There’s an important distinction between any access and preferred format.)
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:51 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
As kids we thought the movie had a "1970s" style of panning around shots in an odd, mechanical way
My understanding is that P&S for broadcast TV was manual process with a guy actually watching the film as it was projected into the telecine and moving the image as necessary. I'd guess they followed a script of some sort giving them directions. (If someone with more knowledge of this cares to chime in/correct me, that would be great).
For DVD there's a way to add P&S instructions ('moves') to the encoding itself but I'm not aware of a disc that was ever authored to take advantage of this feature.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 6:52 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
My understanding is that P&S for broadcast TV was manual process with a guy actually watching the film as it was projected into the telecine and moving the image as necessary. I'd guess they followed a script of some sort giving them directions. (If someone with more knowledge of this cares to chime in/correct me, that would be great).
For DVD there's a way to add P&S instructions ('moves') to the encoding itself but I'm not aware of a disc that was ever authored to take advantage of this feature.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 6:52 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I listen to enough Tech Podcasts that i'm becoming gradually aware that there is a growing consensus among geeks that VR will become the gold standard for home movie watching as headsets improve.
Only if you don’t have a sweetie to snuggle up against and share the experience with. This seems like the hot take of the profoundly single.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:53 AM on June 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
Only if you don’t have a sweetie to snuggle up against and share the experience with. This seems like the hot take of the profoundly single.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:53 AM on June 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
Have they invented a VR headset that fits over glasses yet? If the answer is no, then I was right to write off VR when I tried it in the early '90s.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:00 AM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:00 AM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Only if you don’t have a sweetie to snuggle up against and share the experience with. This seems like the hot take of the profoundly single.
Um, ew? The “profoundly” single? Single people do not have a disease and we do not require your weird condescension.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:05 AM on June 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
Um, ew? The “profoundly” single? Single people do not have a disease and we do not require your weird condescension.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:05 AM on June 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
My understanding is the apple VR headset will have inserts to match your prescription, though not sure how that works or if it includes lenses that correct for astigmatism, etc etc. They also cost 4 Grand USD so....
Lol, I highly recommend watching on your phone. You can start off in the couch with the dog, then take a bath, then brush your teeth during the more talky scenes, then finish the last act in bed! It's great!
posted by midmarch snowman at 7:07 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Lol, I highly recommend watching on your phone. You can start off in the couch with the dog, then take a bath, then brush your teeth during the more talky scenes, then finish the last act in bed! It's great!
posted by midmarch snowman at 7:07 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have tried VR on my brother's Oculus. I played Beat Saber and had fun. But there's no way I would strap on a set of goggles and headphones that so entirely cut me off from the real-world environment for multiple hours at a time. I play a lot of video games. Even the thought of being that cut off from the room I'm in for more than maybe 20 minutes at a time gives me the heebie-jeebies. It's a cool, fun technology, but the full immersive experience makes me feel claustrophobic and even paranoid after a short while.
Will we ever get VR equipment that works really well for people like me? (I'm not generally paranoid or claustrophobic, either). Maybe. But I haven't experienced it.
posted by SoberHighland at 7:07 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Will we ever get VR equipment that works really well for people like me? (I'm not generally paranoid or claustrophobic, either). Maybe. But I haven't experienced it.
posted by SoberHighland at 7:07 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some movies play with aspect ratio a lot. I think Everything Everywhere All At Once has different aspect ratios depending on the nature of the scene. The Dark Knight in IMAX had much of the movie letterboxed but the IMAX-fiilmed scenes used the entire screen. Of course, if you're in a mall IMAX theater, you don't really have the 5-story-tall screen so that isn't actually IMAX format.
posted by hippybear at 7:29 AM on June 18, 2023
posted by hippybear at 7:29 AM on June 18, 2023
I’d like an easy fix for the “soap opera effect.” And one that I could secretly fix for my cinephile friend with the massive screen who loves to watch movies with us but insists his TV doesn’t have soap opera effect. It does! Bah!
posted by amanda at 7:37 AM on June 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by amanda at 7:37 AM on June 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
Also, I have an endless rant about how my local city, Spokane, had a legacy IMAX screen that was built for the 74 World's Fair, that had a really good box office with first run movies (I saw three of the Harry Potter movies there first run), but then when IMAX wanted to build mall FauxMAX theaters, they removed the ability for the ACTUAL IMAX movie to have first run, or even later run, theatrical release movies. That put the actual IMAX screen into showing only nature documentaries, which led to it being declared not financially viable so THEY FUCKING TORE DOWN ONE OF THE FEW REAL IMAX SCREENS IN THE COUNTRY. And now there's just a lawn where it used to be.
I will probably be fuming angry about this for the rest of my life.
posted by hippybear at 7:43 AM on June 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
I will probably be fuming angry about this for the rest of my life.
posted by hippybear at 7:43 AM on June 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
The VR version of this noodle rant is itself an interesting application of 360 video in VR. Because you really can better compare these aspect ratios when it's not also constrained by the aspect ratio of whatever screen you're watching on.
posted by RobotHero at 7:47 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotHero at 7:47 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Noodle's take on this ignores a significant part of the problem: the audience.
I know LOTS of people who will uncritically watch ANYTHING on TV, regardless of format.
It can be crushed, it can be stretched - by the set's own "WIDE/NORMAL" setting - and they refuse to be offended.
I mean, you walk in the room and flinch, and quite reasonably ask "MY GOD HOW CAN YOU BE WATCHING THIS??!!??"
..and they respond "Huh? What's the matter?"
And you shout at them "THE ASPECT RATIO IS ALL WRONG!! HOW CAN YOU WATCH THIS?"
and they reply mildly "The WHAT is wrong?"
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 7:48 AM on June 18, 2023 [17 favorites]
I know LOTS of people who will uncritically watch ANYTHING on TV, regardless of format.
It can be crushed, it can be stretched - by the set's own "WIDE/NORMAL" setting - and they refuse to be offended.
I mean, you walk in the room and flinch, and quite reasonably ask "MY GOD HOW CAN YOU BE WATCHING THIS??!!??"
..and they respond "Huh? What's the matter?"
And you shout at them "THE ASPECT RATIO IS ALL WRONG!! HOW CAN YOU WATCH THIS?"
and they reply mildly "The WHAT is wrong?"
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 7:48 AM on June 18, 2023 [17 favorites]
Also if you enjoy noodle ranting about why something looks wrong, he did a video about people running animation through a frame interpolation process to make it 60fps.
posted by RobotHero at 7:54 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by RobotHero at 7:54 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
He didn't even get to the crux of the old gaming problem with aspect ratios in that pixels weren't anywhere near square for anybody. Nobody had square pixels. VGA didn't. Nintendo didn't. Sega did in PAL territories but only in H40 mode so not every game.
But then we did widescreen displays that had line numbers that weren't integer multiples of 224, 240, or 256. The factors of 1080 are 216, 270, 360, 540. NOBODY EVER USED THOSE FUCKING RESOLUTIONS IN SD. So now we're stuck in purgatory content scaling hell where everything is bad and nobody is happy. The closest thing you get to satisfaction is 320x200 VGA scaled up to 1600x1200 and those screens are so old and none support the 70Hz refresh rate properly and nobody is making VRR 1200p and everything is worse.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:54 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
But then we did widescreen displays that had line numbers that weren't integer multiples of 224, 240, or 256. The factors of 1080 are 216, 270, 360, 540. NOBODY EVER USED THOSE FUCKING RESOLUTIONS IN SD. So now we're stuck in purgatory content scaling hell where everything is bad and nobody is happy. The closest thing you get to satisfaction is 320x200 VGA scaled up to 1600x1200 and those screens are so old and none support the 70Hz refresh rate properly and nobody is making VRR 1200p and everything is worse.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:54 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
my favorite tv mode to hate is that one that does the sinusoidal stretching like the content is being projected on a cylinder, but you dont see that much anymore in the wild
posted by glonous keming at 7:58 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by glonous keming at 7:58 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
> a video about people running animation through a frame interpolation process to make it 60fps
i'll deff check that one out. as an avid fansub anime watcher that shit does my head in. seems like it's mostly the newer generation of encoders (as in people, not software) that do that shit but fuck, man, i know toxicity sucks but at least in the old days absolutely busting the balls of a shitty encode kept the bar raised high enough that people knew not to fuck around like that. now NOTHING MATTERS! upscale! interpolate! crop! fuck it.
posted by glonous keming at 8:04 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
i'll deff check that one out. as an avid fansub anime watcher that shit does my head in. seems like it's mostly the newer generation of encoders (as in people, not software) that do that shit but fuck, man, i know toxicity sucks but at least in the old days absolutely busting the balls of a shitty encode kept the bar raised high enough that people knew not to fuck around like that. now NOTHING MATTERS! upscale! interpolate! crop! fuck it.
posted by glonous keming at 8:04 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
> Some movies play with aspect ratio a lot. I think Everything Everywhere All At Once has different aspect ratios depending on the nature of the scene.
came here to talk about eeaao because it's not so much that it's playing with the aspect ratio and more like the aspect ratio itself is a character, a really funny playful character
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:10 AM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
came here to talk about eeaao because it's not so much that it's playing with the aspect ratio and more like the aspect ratio itself is a character, a really funny playful character
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:10 AM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’d like an easy fix for the “soap opera effect.” And one that I could secretly fix for my cinephile friend with the massive screen who loves to watch movies with us but insists his TV doesn’t have soap opera effect. It does!
The fix is inviting them over to your place to watch movies. ;->
Srsly, I have just such a 'cinephile' friend, in love with his huge OLED screen, whose explanation is to tell me that's just what 4K/HDR content is supposed to look like. I don't know how he got so derailed. There's nothing to say.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:50 AM on June 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
The fix is inviting them over to your place to watch movies. ;->
Srsly, I have just such a 'cinephile' friend, in love with his huge OLED screen, whose explanation is to tell me that's just what 4K/HDR content is supposed to look like. I don't know how he got so derailed. There's nothing to say.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:50 AM on June 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
There's an annoying category of YouTube videos that are "this old show, now in widescreen" which are just top-and-bottom cropped, like run through a processor, no thought at all about even the most basic concepts of good cropping like "quality" pan-and-scan would attempt... and I guess maybe there's a generation or two younger than me who don't have a clue, but man, I look even at the frame used to promote the video and think "wow, that's really artless and awful and degrading".
posted by hippybear at 9:02 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:02 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Um, ew? The “profoundly” single? Single people do not have a disease and we do not require your weird condescension.
I am a single person myself, and did not intend condensation. I apologize if it came across that way. I also do not really ‘get’ the VR love, either. It’s possible I overlayed the two — the love of the hyper-isolationist experience that is VR, and (to me) the joy of experiencing something WITH someone - even if it’s sitting next to them on the couch and being peripherally aware of their reactions. Watching movies is for me at its best when it’s a shared experience. I jumped to the conclusion that someone who advocates for VR watching has never deeply *shared* the experience with someone else. ymmv.
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:33 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am a single person myself, and did not intend condensation. I apologize if it came across that way. I also do not really ‘get’ the VR love, either. It’s possible I overlayed the two — the love of the hyper-isolationist experience that is VR, and (to me) the joy of experiencing something WITH someone - even if it’s sitting next to them on the couch and being peripherally aware of their reactions. Watching movies is for me at its best when it’s a shared experience. I jumped to the conclusion that someone who advocates for VR watching has never deeply *shared* the experience with someone else. ymmv.
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:33 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
In video games, the default is 1.78:1 (16:9) but there's one game that bucks the trend, Lost Ark was designed for ultrawide 2.37:1 and if you wanted to play it on a regular monitor you either had black bars on the top and bottom, or you chopped off the bits on the left and right edges.
I see your Lost Ark and raise you a Dariusburst: Chronicle Saviours, which runs at 32:9 (3.55:1) in its arcade mode. It's traditional for Darius games to run on dual monitor setups in the arcade, and this one is no exception.
posted by May Kasahara at 9:44 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I see your Lost Ark and raise you a Dariusburst: Chronicle Saviours, which runs at 32:9 (3.55:1) in its arcade mode. It's traditional for Darius games to run on dual monitor setups in the arcade, and this one is no exception.
posted by May Kasahara at 9:44 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
“profoundly” single
Derail, but sometimes people make little jokes and not every comment should be interpreted as a personal attack, especially on this site. Yes, let's be sensitive to single people (and others) but please don't immediately assume evil on the part of those making little comedic asides once in a while!
posted by SoberHighland at 10:13 AM on June 18, 2023 [17 favorites]
Derail, but sometimes people make little jokes and not every comment should be interpreted as a personal attack, especially on this site. Yes, let's be sensitive to single people (and others) but please don't immediately assume evil on the part of those making little comedic asides once in a while!
posted by SoberHighland at 10:13 AM on June 18, 2023 [17 favorites]
He had me right up until he said that VR was the best way to watch movies.
have you tried it?
I haven't but can immediately imagine it being the movie watching equivalent of laying back and putting on headphones to listen to a piece of music, giving its every detail your full attention. Or similarly, turning off your phone and finding a quiet spot to curl up with a good book.
Which gets me imagining a widening of a current cultural divide. Between those who will give their all toward engaging with an artist's work distraction free. And those who just want to have something "on" (ie: how I "watch" a lot of sports events).
posted by philip-random at 10:28 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
have you tried it?
I haven't but can immediately imagine it being the movie watching equivalent of laying back and putting on headphones to listen to a piece of music, giving its every detail your full attention. Or similarly, turning off your phone and finding a quiet spot to curl up with a good book.
Which gets me imagining a widening of a current cultural divide. Between those who will give their all toward engaging with an artist's work distraction free. And those who just want to have something "on" (ie: how I "watch" a lot of sports events).
posted by philip-random at 10:28 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
have you tried it?
Those things give me vertigo and panic attacks.
posted by octothorpe at 10:33 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Those things give me vertigo and panic attacks.
posted by octothorpe at 10:33 AM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Soap opera effect? I usually ask them to let me turn off motion smoothing. It's usually in the picture menu. If it's a close friend, I'll just turn it off without asking, perhaps while they are in the other room (some people dislike having thier TV settings messed with, and they don't care about being philistines, so it's important that the friendship is strong enough to withstand the inevitable damage caused by ignoring their wishes. Be prepared to be told you "broke thier television" for months after. Honestly it's probably best to just ask, even if it's more fun not to.)
posted by surlyben at 10:43 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 10:43 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Somebody in our house did something to the TV that made it have a "zoomed-in" view of everything, like it cuts off the top and bottom of everything, so I can't see, for instance, when a storm warning runs across the top of the screen, and I can't see the category on "Wheel of Fortune". No amount of poking at settings or searching Google for the answer has led to me being able to fix it, and it drives me bonkers.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:47 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Daily Alice at 10:47 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
@DailyAlice: I assume you are searching for "overscan" settings? Or "overscan problems"?
posted by aleph at 11:18 AM on June 18, 2023
posted by aleph at 11:18 AM on June 18, 2023
@surlyben I've tried this at one point, asking first, and the response after making the change was "I don't see the difference." And therein lies the problem.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 11:29 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 11:29 AM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I remember when wide format TV's were introduced and we were told that our old crt tv's were in the wrong format (4:3) to enjoy movies properly, and that widescreen monitors solved this problem by being in the correct aspect ratio (16:9). Now I'm being told that 16:9 is wrong, and I'm waiting for the magic wonder corporations to bless us with a new tv in the "correct" aspect ratios, or has all the money changed hands enough that we now have to buy VR? The actual problem isn't the format of the movie screen vs the tv screen, it's the various hands in the multiple tills. Until we can get hot dogs and buns to even out, we won't get the aspect ratio problem solved. BTW, this is why people do drugs.
posted by evilDoug at 12:12 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 12:12 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I would like to watch s movie in 240 frames per second before I pass on from this earth, please
Human eyes and brains can't even process that many images in a second. A movie at 240 FPS isn't going to be distinguishable from a movie at, say, 120 FPS. Most people wouldn't be able to distinguish it from 60 FPS, or even 30 FPS.
More importantly, the art of filmmaking is not about achieving maximum possible resolution or "realism". It's about using images to evoke emotions and ideas. Images at 24 FPS can be incredibly evocative. Adding more frames per second doesn't make a film more movjng or meaningful.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:25 PM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Human eyes and brains can't even process that many images in a second. A movie at 240 FPS isn't going to be distinguishable from a movie at, say, 120 FPS. Most people wouldn't be able to distinguish it from 60 FPS, or even 30 FPS.
More importantly, the art of filmmaking is not about achieving maximum possible resolution or "realism". It's about using images to evoke emotions and ideas. Images at 24 FPS can be incredibly evocative. Adding more frames per second doesn't make a film more movjng or meaningful.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:25 PM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Clearly what we need are 100 inch diagonal monitors with a 1:1 aspect ratio (i.e. square) that will display any aspect ratio needed, and all will have bars in the appropriate locations. (See also digital picture frames.)
posted by TedW at 12:35 PM on June 18, 2023
posted by TedW at 12:35 PM on June 18, 2023
There have always been and will be a variety of aspect ratios in which filmic media (for lack of a better term) will be presented. This was one of my issues with noodle's presentation (the other was the kvetchy tone). This isn't a problem to be solved any more than than it's a "problem" that paintings and photos come in different sizes. It's just a part of the medium. There's no question that wide/large screens in the home have gone a long way to improving the situation (which is how I prefer to think about). They give us much more flexibility in the home setting. And many directors today are savvy enough to understand and plan for this by acquiring content and editing it, knowing it needs to be presented in variety of settings, both in the home and in the theater.
I can see why displaying in VR sounds like a potential solution (as it removes the fixed frame from around the image) but I think that's a ways off. In the meantime, we'll just have to live with the fact of there's not yet a single "device" we can use to watch films and videos...as we always have.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 12:36 PM on June 18, 2023
I can see why displaying in VR sounds like a potential solution (as it removes the fixed frame from around the image) but I think that's a ways off. In the meantime, we'll just have to live with the fact of there's not yet a single "device" we can use to watch films and videos...as we always have.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 12:36 PM on June 18, 2023
my favorite tv mode to hate is that one that does the sinusoidal stretching like the content is being projected on a cylinder, but you dont see that much anymore in the wild
The TV in the break room at work does this; I have no idea why no one has attempted to fix it and I am only in there for a few minutes at a time and mostly on my iPad, so I could care less about what is on or how it is displayed. But every once in a while I will look overnight at the TV and it feels like i am under water.
posted by TedW at 12:44 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
The TV in the break room at work does this; I have no idea why no one has attempted to fix it and I am only in there for a few minutes at a time and mostly on my iPad, so I could care less about what is on or how it is displayed. But every once in a while I will look overnight at the TV and it feels like i am under water.
posted by TedW at 12:44 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is fascinating to me that people care so much about this. Count me as one of those who don’t give a crap and will watch anything. The only time I mess with the settings is when I’m watching an old dvd of a tv show and the tv wants to stretch it instead of displaying it at 4:3. Other than that, meh. I grew up with a 10” black and white tube set with rabbit ear antennas. Everything since then is an improvement. I’ll just watch it.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:06 PM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:06 PM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
He had me right up until he said that VR was the best way to watch movies.
This.
The moment it becomes necessary to don VR gear to watch a movie is when I quit watching movies.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:03 PM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
This.
The moment it becomes necessary to don VR gear to watch a movie is when I quit watching movies.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:03 PM on June 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
We borrowed VR headset from the local museum when they were doing a VR film festival thing a year or so ago. Oculus. It was really cool! Very interesting short films that really took us to some wild locations. There was animation too! But I couldn't watch more than one short film at a time, maybe because there was so much 360 action? Definitely got motion sick if I hung out too long. And after a few days of taking the headset off and on and watching probably not more than 2 hours altogether? My neck hurt!
posted by amanda at 2:52 PM on June 18, 2023
posted by amanda at 2:52 PM on June 18, 2023
In the early 2000s, when widescreen TVs came out but most TV signals were still 4:3, the "squashed" correction was everywhere. It drove me crazy, but other people just couldn't see it. I remember watching some news on a squashed version of CNN, and they cut to video of their announcer as he was displayed on a squashed widescreen display in the studio. I was bothered that he was double-squashed, but I was kind of horrified to realize that even the TV production community didn't care about aspect ratios, and that I might never again know if some symbol on a television was supposed to be a circle or an oval.
Well, horrified is too strong. But I was definitely whelmed.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 3:06 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Well, horrified is too strong. But I was definitely whelmed.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 3:06 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Human eyes and brains can't even process that many images in a second.
They certainly can, specifically in the areas of motion tracking and motion blur. I'll invite you to have a look at a 360fps monitor or, if you lived nearby, at an 8 year old monitor I have at 120fps with the best blank frame insertion module I think was ever produced (one of the original pricy GSYNC modules they don't produce anymore). Everyone who has seen it swears it's black magic, even completely non-techy persons, without exception, so I disagree with statement that "most people couldn't tell the difference". A 120fps display with good blank frame insertion mimics the performance of a roughly 360fps display. I have a newer monitor with a poorer implementation of blank frame insertion and it's very much worse, and just displaying raw 120fps without blank frame insertion is like going back to the dark ages. VR devices call this technique "low persistence" but they're only doing 90fps.
You know how when you are reading Metafilter on a desktop, you click the middle mouse button and it auto-scrolls the page up or down rapidly? The text kind of greys / fuzzes / blurs during the scroll, and then resolves to full sharpness once you stop scrolling? You can't actually read the text during a moderately rapid scroll (unless you let it scroll really slowly). With 120fps BFI or 360fps raw, the text stays sharp even during a moderately rapid scroll. It doesn't turn grey, it remains full black. Your eyes can track text as it moves rapidly and still read it at full sharpness, the same way your eyes track a moving object in real life and still see it at full sharpness.
In short, it entirely removes the impression that we're looking at flat images on a screen, and it feels like you're looking at the real object through a looking glass.
posted by xdvesper at 4:08 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
They certainly can, specifically in the areas of motion tracking and motion blur. I'll invite you to have a look at a 360fps monitor or, if you lived nearby, at an 8 year old monitor I have at 120fps with the best blank frame insertion module I think was ever produced (one of the original pricy GSYNC modules they don't produce anymore). Everyone who has seen it swears it's black magic, even completely non-techy persons, without exception, so I disagree with statement that "most people couldn't tell the difference". A 120fps display with good blank frame insertion mimics the performance of a roughly 360fps display. I have a newer monitor with a poorer implementation of blank frame insertion and it's very much worse, and just displaying raw 120fps without blank frame insertion is like going back to the dark ages. VR devices call this technique "low persistence" but they're only doing 90fps.
You know how when you are reading Metafilter on a desktop, you click the middle mouse button and it auto-scrolls the page up or down rapidly? The text kind of greys / fuzzes / blurs during the scroll, and then resolves to full sharpness once you stop scrolling? You can't actually read the text during a moderately rapid scroll (unless you let it scroll really slowly). With 120fps BFI or 360fps raw, the text stays sharp even during a moderately rapid scroll. It doesn't turn grey, it remains full black. Your eyes can track text as it moves rapidly and still read it at full sharpness, the same way your eyes track a moving object in real life and still see it at full sharpness.
In short, it entirely removes the impression that we're looking at flat images on a screen, and it feels like you're looking at the real object through a looking glass.
posted by xdvesper at 4:08 PM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
@AsYouKnowBob, I may have a father-in-law (happy father's day!) who insisted on clicking the "Zoom" button on his old DVD player, because the first time he watched a widescreen DVD, he was frustrated by the letterboxing. So he zoomed in until the whole TV was filled with image, even though it was CLEARLY missing things like "the tops of people's heads" or "everything below the ribs." His success criterion had nothing to do with "seeing the whole picture" or "director's intent" or any of that horsepucky. He paid for every pixel on that TV screen, and his success criterion was that those puppies all lit up!
You may be braver than I am about wading into those conversations with family and friends. My success criterion is mainly not having those conversations at all, unless I'm getting paid an exorbitant hourly rate. This would've been pro bono, and hence a no go.
posted by adekllny at 7:03 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
You may be braver than I am about wading into those conversations with family and friends. My success criterion is mainly not having those conversations at all, unless I'm getting paid an exorbitant hourly rate. This would've been pro bono, and hence a no go.
posted by adekllny at 7:03 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
In my Speech and Communication class in college, circa 1994, I did a presentation on "Why All Movies Should be Letterboxed" or something, and showed clips of movies like Lawrence of Arabia and Pulp Fiction, first in cropped and then in letterbox format. I think I genuinely changed some people's minds. To this day my best speech.
A few thoughts on Avatar: The Way of Water. He didn't get into the framerate so much, but the version I saw in the theater (there seemed to be about 5 different versions) was the 3D IMAX mixed framerate. I LOVED the 3D, totally immersive, but why Cameron chose to randomly switch the frame rate from 24fps to 48fps is still baffling to me. Jim, pick one or the other! Though I definitely prefer 24fps; it just looks like a movie. The high frame rate looked sort of cartoony. With a significant exception of the underwater scenes--those looked amazing in the high frame rate. Because things underwater happen in a quasi-slow motion anyway, so the added frames just made everything all the more clear.
Also, echoing what this guy said but about 3D specifically: there's no way, currently, to watch Way of Water in 3D unless you're one of the dozen people that have a 3D TV, or through VR. My wife still hasn't seen Avatar in 3D and I know she'll be impressed with it, but my explanations only go so far. You just have to experience it in a theater.I've read that VR is actually the best way to watch 3D movies, but I've also heard that the resolution isn't really there yet on even the best headsets, sort of a faux 4K. The new Apple VR rig supposedly can do it well, but that's not even out until next year.
posted by zardoz at 1:35 AM on June 19, 2023
A few thoughts on Avatar: The Way of Water. He didn't get into the framerate so much, but the version I saw in the theater (there seemed to be about 5 different versions) was the 3D IMAX mixed framerate. I LOVED the 3D, totally immersive, but why Cameron chose to randomly switch the frame rate from 24fps to 48fps is still baffling to me. Jim, pick one or the other! Though I definitely prefer 24fps; it just looks like a movie. The high frame rate looked sort of cartoony. With a significant exception of the underwater scenes--those looked amazing in the high frame rate. Because things underwater happen in a quasi-slow motion anyway, so the added frames just made everything all the more clear.
Also, echoing what this guy said but about 3D specifically: there's no way, currently, to watch Way of Water in 3D unless you're one of the dozen people that have a 3D TV, or through VR. My wife still hasn't seen Avatar in 3D and I know she'll be impressed with it, but my explanations only go so far. You just have to experience it in a theater.I've read that VR is actually the best way to watch 3D movies, but I've also heard that the resolution isn't really there yet on even the best headsets, sort of a faux 4K. The new Apple VR rig supposedly can do it well, but that's not even out until next year.
posted by zardoz at 1:35 AM on June 19, 2023
As someone who predominantly watches films on a computer (using a TV as a monitor) I would really like everything to just be distributed in the original intended aspect ratio, and then let the consumer and their device deal with if and how they want to scale it. Obviously this is trivial with any half decent media player on a computer, but even most halfway modern TVs have loads of options for scaling, stretching, cropping, or zooming. I dislike the dirty hack of baking black bars into the video signal, but in this day and age of streaming, we're not tethered to the standards of any physical media, and should be able to stream video at arbitrary resolution and aspect ratio. Then, let people deal with that how they prefer. Everyone's happy!?
posted by Dysk at 3:28 AM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 3:28 AM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
This feels like a very "abortions for some, miniature American flags for others" sort of situation. I'll leave it as an exercise for the readers which is which.
@Daily Alice: are you using an Apple TV (or some other set top box) by any chance? Or is this an issue universal to your TV across multiple inputs?
posted by Cogito at 5:03 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
@Daily Alice: are you using an Apple TV (or some other set top box) by any chance? Or is this an issue universal to your TV across multiple inputs?
posted by Cogito at 5:03 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Xfinity (Comcast) cable. We don't have a DVD player hooked up and I don't know if the issue persists on Netflix/Amazon streaming because I don't recognize any movies well enough to be able to tell if there are bits missing from them.
posted by Daily Alice at 5:18 AM on June 19, 2023
posted by Daily Alice at 5:18 AM on June 19, 2023
Daily Alice...How old is your tv? We have an older tv, and the remote has a dedicated “Format” button. Pressing it, brings up an onscreen menu with screen options of Normal, 4:3, Movie Expand, Zoom, and Wide. What you describe is exactly what things look like on most channels/services when it’s on Zoom.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:47 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 7:47 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
@zardoz I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter. I'd pay for a subscription if in lieu of Pulp Fiction you'd eponysterically put Zardoz in front of your class. although maybe the concern would be that it would make Lawrence of Arabia pale in comparison. (would've been a nice desert triple feature with Dune, maybe?)
posted by adekllny at 7:54 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by adekllny at 7:54 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
If there is a moment in cinema where the viewer really needs to respect the director's vision it's when everyone is licking Sean Connery's magic sweat.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:32 AM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:32 AM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
@GCU Is it bad I know exactly what you are talking about? I bought a copy of the 5000 limited edition release of Zardoz on BluRay because I imprinted on it as an impressionable teen after seeing it broadcast on PBS. The 2nd movement of Beethoven's 7th Symphony still makes me think of Zardoz.
posted by fings at 11:40 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fings at 11:40 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Zardoz is this weirdly ahead-of-its-time story about the Singularity and posthumans, but it happens to be wrapped up in this thiiiiick layer of early-70s psychedelic hippy-dippy nonsense. If you can get past licking the magic sweat and Seannery in leather manties, there's a good movie lurking under there.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:49 AM on June 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:49 AM on June 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
His success criterion had nothing to do with "seeing the whole picture" or "director's intent" or any of that horsepucky. He paid for every pixel on that TV screen, and his success criterion was that those puppies all lit up!
Ha! My grandfather was unable (and/or unwilling?) to understand letterboxing and why it was allowing him to see more of the movie, rather than less. I remember my father trying to explain it to him, and he just couldn't get him to grasp it.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:36 PM on June 19, 2023
Ha! My grandfather was unable (and/or unwilling?) to understand letterboxing and why it was allowing him to see more of the movie, rather than less. I remember my father trying to explain it to him, and he just couldn't get him to grasp it.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:36 PM on June 19, 2023
One thing I have found interesting is introducing someone who hasn't watched older films to older films. They don't understand that the 4:3 aspect ratio was standard for decades, and widescreen was only brought in to fight against television which also went with a 4:3 ratio.
So they want Casablanca to be in widescreen. When it never was.
posted by hippybear at 11:59 AM on June 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
So they want Casablanca to be in widescreen. When it never was.
posted by hippybear at 11:59 AM on June 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
One thing I have found interesting is introducing someone who hasn't watched older films to older films. They don't understand that the 4:3 aspect ratio was standard for decades, and widescreen was only brought in to fight against television which also went with a 4:3 ratio.
So they want Casablanca to be in widescreen. When it never was.
TLDR: You must remember this
posted by ersatz at 12:58 AM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
So they want Casablanca to be in widescreen. When it never was.
TLDR: You must remember this
posted by ersatz at 12:58 AM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Big noodle fan! (Also a fan of the YouTuber named noodle)
If the rant-y tone annoys you, he did a fine video on his deep and abiding love for the campaigns of the Halo franchise (full disclosure: I am a massive Halo fan as well)
posted by Rhaomi at 9:56 PM on June 26, 2023
If the rant-y tone annoys you, he did a fine video on his deep and abiding love for the campaigns of the Halo franchise (full disclosure: I am a massive Halo fan as well)
posted by Rhaomi at 9:56 PM on June 26, 2023
« Older A place for images of John Oliver looking sexy. | Crochet artist who made clothes for rock stars Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Unfortunately Dune was released in 2.39:1 only, so we miss out on on the IMAX presentation, which I am a bit annoyed about, I never went to see it in IMAX.
Top Gun was really good, they released the BluRay with 2.39:1 for most scenes but 1.79:1 for the IMAX action sequences.
Avatar: The way of Water (releasing in two days) is releasing in 1.85:1 and as I understand it, also the same for the original Avatar 4K re-release. I did watch this in IMAX and not only did we get the tall projection but we also get HFR (48fps) and 3D. The HFR "should" in theory be possible in a home release but it doesn't look like they're ever going to do it, the current UHD standard doesn't even remotely support 48fps, never mind VFR where James decides to speed up and slow down the frame rate at whim depending on whether it's an action shot or close up character shot. Some people don't like deviating from 24fps but again, as a gamer, I paid for the frames, so I want to use all the frames. I would like to watch s movie in 240 frames per second before I pass on from this earth, please, if it's possible for games to render graphics in real time at that rate surely it must be possible for movies to be shot at that rate too, especially with AI assisted interpolation / frame generation.
Alita: Battle Angel was only ever officially released in 2.39:1 but there is an open matte version (IMAX) floating around on the high seas. Allegedly.
In video games, the default is 1.78:1 (16:9) but there's one game that bucks the trend, Lost Ark was designed for ultrawide 2.37:1 and if you wanted to play it on a regular monitor you either had black bars on the top and bottom, or you chopped off the bits on the left and right edges.
posted by xdvesper at 2:10 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]