How the union dies
July 23, 2023 10:57 PM Subscribe
Maybe this quiet fading, engineered by a company with time and money to burn, is how the union dies. A billionaire who doesn’t want to be called a billionaire, who blusters when his company’s service workers get likened to the blue-collar worker who raised him — this is the chasm between our putative national values and our daily reality. We want to believe in a middle-class America where hard work weaves its own safety net. But millions of workers don’t earn enough money to cover basic expenses.
The problem is that service labor, especially in the food industry, is not a job one typically keeps for an extended period. Which makes unionization hard,, because the company can outwait the employees.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:15 PM on July 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:15 PM on July 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
We want to believe in a middle-class America where hard work weaves its own safety net.
Speak for yourself.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:23 PM on July 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
Speak for yourself.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:23 PM on July 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe this turn-around, engineered by a political party interested in using its available power, is how the union is resurrected:
the N.L.R.B. is barred from imposing monetary penalties... pass a law changing this
the agency operates on a tight budget and a skeleton crew. The number of staff available to carry out labor investigations today is half of what it was 20 years ago... pass a spending bill changing this
Hillary Clinton, by many accounts, planned to nominate Mr. Schultz for labor secretary if she’d won the presidential election in 2016... remove people like this from party leadership
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 11:44 PM on July 23, 2023 [41 favorites]
the N.L.R.B. is barred from imposing monetary penalties... pass a law changing this
the agency operates on a tight budget and a skeleton crew. The number of staff available to carry out labor investigations today is half of what it was 20 years ago... pass a spending bill changing this
Hillary Clinton, by many accounts, planned to nominate Mr. Schultz for labor secretary if she’d won the presidential election in 2016... remove people like this from party leadership
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 11:44 PM on July 23, 2023 [41 favorites]
Starbucks - spit
My teenager has nagged me into buying Starbucks here in Australia.
I used it as a teaching moment - "here is an organisation that advertises community, fairness, etc. Judge them by their fruits - anti-union, anti-worker. This is the last money that I will ever give them and, in solidarity with every service worker in precarious employment, please make it that you do not ever buy anything from them."
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 12:02 AM on July 24, 2023 [28 favorites]
My teenager has nagged me into buying Starbucks here in Australia.
I used it as a teaching moment - "here is an organisation that advertises community, fairness, etc. Judge them by their fruits - anti-union, anti-worker. This is the last money that I will ever give them and, in solidarity with every service worker in precarious employment, please make it that you do not ever buy anything from them."
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 12:02 AM on July 24, 2023 [28 favorites]
Globalization destroyed whatever leverage unions used to have.
The manufacturing union had to compete with wages 90% lower in Asia due to all the Free Trade Agreements we signed, now after Work From Home was so "successful" even white collar unions are competing with wages 80% lower in Asia.
Eventually, it might be that the only secure employment would be the kind of work that can't be outsourced: retail work, ironically, like Starbucks.
posted by xdvesper at 12:45 AM on July 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
The manufacturing union had to compete with wages 90% lower in Asia due to all the Free Trade Agreements we signed, now after Work From Home was so "successful" even white collar unions are competing with wages 80% lower in Asia.
Eventually, it might be that the only secure employment would be the kind of work that can't be outsourced: retail work, ironically, like Starbucks.
posted by xdvesper at 12:45 AM on July 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
We want to believe in a middle-class America where hard work weaves its own safety net. But millions of workers don’t earn enough money to cover basic expenses.
I'm in a nation which has, for now (crosses fingers, touch wood) a social safety net -- and our 'hard work that weaves it's own safety net' is in solidarity and political organising. When we're together as a collective, our political mandate creates marketplaces that are regulated and safe for anyone to use, plus baseline services when you need help, and runs policies which use economies of scale in national insurance policies to spread the risk of lifetime events so that the randomness of life events isn't a burden to people in our society that can't afford to protect themselves as individuals.
More strength to your arms in finding that solidarity and working to form protective collectives.
posted by k3ninho at 2:43 AM on July 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm in a nation which has, for now (crosses fingers, touch wood) a social safety net -- and our 'hard work that weaves it's own safety net' is in solidarity and political organising. When we're together as a collective, our political mandate creates marketplaces that are regulated and safe for anyone to use, plus baseline services when you need help, and runs policies which use economies of scale in national insurance policies to spread the risk of lifetime events so that the randomness of life events isn't a burden to people in our society that can't afford to protect themselves as individuals.
More strength to your arms in finding that solidarity and working to form protective collectives.
posted by k3ninho at 2:43 AM on July 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
Also, their coffee is not very good.
posted by Panjandrum at 2:46 AM on July 24, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Panjandrum at 2:46 AM on July 24, 2023 [18 favorites]
Starbucks and/or USA? :-P
posted by k3ninho at 3:15 AM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by k3ninho at 3:15 AM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd like to think that there's dignity in labor but every single time I've seen a union formed, the owner simply closes up shop entirely. At this point it's like the WORKERS are being kept on as a little hobby by the owner.
posted by kingdead at 4:18 AM on July 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 4:18 AM on July 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Paywall bypass link
The link in the post is already a gift link, fwiw. It says "unlocked" with the extensive gibberish that follows in NYT gift links.
ETA: oops, looks like the gift link expired, my bad.
posted by mediareport at 4:44 AM on July 24, 2023
The link in the post is already a gift link, fwiw. It says "unlocked" with the extensive gibberish that follows in NYT gift links.
ETA: oops, looks like the gift link expired, my bad.
posted by mediareport at 4:44 AM on July 24, 2023
We want to believe in a middle-class America where hard work weaves its own safety net.
The stupid NY Times wants bootstraps...most of us want the safety net to already be in place before we ever get on the tightrope.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:45 AM on July 24, 2023 [24 favorites]
The stupid NY Times wants bootstraps...most of us want the safety net to already be in place before we ever get on the tightrope.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:45 AM on July 24, 2023 [24 favorites]
At the end of the day, the government is the only organization ostensibly under democratic control. Your employer is not. It kind of astonishes me that people put up with it, to be honest--we all live under little authoritarian fiefdoms every single day we go to work.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:46 AM on July 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 6:46 AM on July 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
If unionizing was completely hopeless they wouldn’t close so many stores because of it.
posted by Artw at 6:53 AM on July 24, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:53 AM on July 24, 2023 [23 favorites]
People who have been jumping up and down with excitement about the union votes at *$ and Amazon have been overreacting. Unions have made progress when the US Federal Executive Branch is on their side, and lose ground otherwise. The President hasn't been on their side since 1952. Though Biden is showing signs of life in this department. There need to be some changes to labor laws, which Democrats stopped trying to make union-friendly 70 years ago. There need to be changes to the federal bureaucracy that enforces labor law, to address some of the power differentials that exist by the time a complaint makes it to the NLRB.
> Also, their coffee is not very good.
I get so disgusted with this attitude. Go get a 3-pound can of Maxwell House, and don't drink anything else until it's gone, preferably brewing it in a percolator. Then tell me that *$ is "not very good." FFS you are spoiled rotten. The coffee that you think is *good*, there isn't enough of that grown in the whole world in a year to supply *$ operations (or the operations of anybody working on a scale like *$) for even a month. Recognize your privilege, that you can make such distinctions.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:21 AM on July 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
> Also, their coffee is not very good.
I get so disgusted with this attitude. Go get a 3-pound can of Maxwell House, and don't drink anything else until it's gone, preferably brewing it in a percolator. Then tell me that *$ is "not very good." FFS you are spoiled rotten. The coffee that you think is *good*, there isn't enough of that grown in the whole world in a year to supply *$ operations (or the operations of anybody working on a scale like *$) for even a month. Recognize your privilege, that you can make such distinctions.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:21 AM on July 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
Schultz is disgusting (was Clinton really going to nominate him???) and union busting is terribly immoral. And in countries where they haven't been ground down to a nub, like France, unions are a valuable economic resource. And I do support the unionizing efforts among Starbucks workers. But...
I really don't think unions are the future of economic security *at all* and that we really need to focus on actual, non-negotiable protections for worker conditions and income. Even if somehow union drives like the one at Starbucks managed to succeed, what about the millions and millions of people shackled to similarly lousy jobs who remain unrepresented?
Think about insurance companies - the reason single payer can keep costs lower is because the pool is as large as possible. How about a union of EVERYBODY who works for a living, clawing back what's been taken from us and sharing it among every American? I think THAT'S how we get workers the best deal.
Don't negotiate - legislate. Healthcare and secure income for every worker.
posted by mellow seas at 7:44 AM on July 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
I really don't think unions are the future of economic security *at all* and that we really need to focus on actual, non-negotiable protections for worker conditions and income. Even if somehow union drives like the one at Starbucks managed to succeed, what about the millions and millions of people shackled to similarly lousy jobs who remain unrepresented?
Think about insurance companies - the reason single payer can keep costs lower is because the pool is as large as possible. How about a union of EVERYBODY who works for a living, clawing back what's been taken from us and sharing it among every American? I think THAT'S how we get workers the best deal.
Don't negotiate - legislate. Healthcare and secure income for every worker.
posted by mellow seas at 7:44 AM on July 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
The way to get federal administrations on the side of workers and to get worker-friendly legislation is by building organized worker power, which means unions. Respectfully, I think the last two comments have the causality backwards.
One of the reasons why recent unionization efforts among service industry workers have been successful, btw, is because they have focused on sectoral organizing: building organizational structures that will support workers even as they move jobs between different fast food restaurants, or are temporarily out of work. That’s how fast food workers in California have one the right to negotiate as a sector rather than shop-by-shop, for example.
Declaiming the purported lack of effectiveness of unions while displaying a lack of knowledge of same is maybe not the most useful contribution to the conversation. Though not having heard about recent union successes is understandable - one tends to have to follow more specifically union-focused news (or Jorts the Cat) to hear about such things.
posted by eviemath at 7:58 AM on July 24, 2023 [20 favorites]
One of the reasons why recent unionization efforts among service industry workers have been successful, btw, is because they have focused on sectoral organizing: building organizational structures that will support workers even as they move jobs between different fast food restaurants, or are temporarily out of work. That’s how fast food workers in California have one the right to negotiate as a sector rather than shop-by-shop, for example.
Declaiming the purported lack of effectiveness of unions while displaying a lack of knowledge of same is maybe not the most useful contribution to the conversation. Though not having heard about recent union successes is understandable - one tends to have to follow more specifically union-focused news (or Jorts the Cat) to hear about such things.
posted by eviemath at 7:58 AM on July 24, 2023 [20 favorites]
If unionizing was completely hopeless they wouldn’t close so many stores because of it.
The point of being in a union is to have job protections and benefits. No job, no point.
I respect people who try for it more than I respect voters, though. Both of them are going to fail but unionization shows more self-respect. I keep saying it but you really think your Congressman or Senator is going to give up their campaign money, house, boat, and social connections because you're upset? What exactly are they going to get out of helping your poor ass?
posted by kingdead at 8:00 AM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The point of being in a union is to have job protections and benefits. No job, no point.
I respect people who try for it more than I respect voters, though. Both of them are going to fail but unionization shows more self-respect. I keep saying it but you really think your Congressman or Senator is going to give up their campaign money, house, boat, and social connections because you're upset? What exactly are they going to get out of helping your poor ass?
posted by kingdead at 8:00 AM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Possibly related misconception: a union is any organization of workers, not just a local bargaining unit as authorized by the NLRB (or equivalent in other countries), or affiliation of multiple such units. And unions do more in terms of organizing workers than just officially sanctioned contract negotiations.
The IWW has a pandhandlers union, for example. Many unions include workers who are not presently employed, but who generally work in a given industry, as well.
posted by eviemath at 8:02 AM on July 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
The IWW has a pandhandlers union, for example. Many unions include workers who are not presently employed, but who generally work in a given industry, as well.
posted by eviemath at 8:02 AM on July 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
It really is horrible coffee. Not privileged here...I always buy Gevalia, or Maxwell House if I'm out of food stamps.
posted by Czjewel at 8:06 AM on July 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 8:06 AM on July 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, their coffee is not very good.
The beans might be fine, but the roasting is questionable. Many sites discuss the issue, for example, this one.
I recall thinking that opening one in Milan was the height of hubris, but the joint seems to still be in business. Is the product there better, worse, different? How about other out of country sites?
posted by BWA at 8:18 AM on July 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
The beans might be fine, but the roasting is questionable. Many sites discuss the issue, for example, this one.
I recall thinking that opening one in Milan was the height of hubris, but the joint seems to still be in business. Is the product there better, worse, different? How about other out of country sites?
posted by BWA at 8:18 AM on July 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
The problem is that service labor, especially in the food industry, is not a job one typically keeps for an extended period. Which makes unionization hard,, because the company can outwait the employees.
The broader issue seems to be the war waged on unions for decades. Starbucks and Amazon can simply ignore the law and face no consequence, so of course they will simply wait out their workers who ultimately need to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. The entire system is essentially rigged against unionization.
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:23 AM on July 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
The broader issue seems to be the war waged on unions for decades. Starbucks and Amazon can simply ignore the law and face no consequence, so of course they will simply wait out their workers who ultimately need to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. The entire system is essentially rigged against unionization.
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:23 AM on July 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also, their coffee is not very good.
For what it's worth, a previous comment on this issue ...
Certainly in my town, the arrival of Starbucks actually raised the game of "good coffee" and good atmosphere. Suddenly, there was a franchise in the neighbourhood that was offering at least consistently okay coffee in an environment where the music wasn't awful, the washrooms got cleaned every now and then etc ...
I know the official narrative here on the (so-called) left is that Starbucks stomped in and undermined all manner of wonderful mom and pop outfits in the name of shareholder greed (which is not all untrue). But in my actual experience, I noticed some fairly dodgy outfits go down and others, like I said, getting serious about offering a better overall situation.
I do remain bemused by all the anti-Starbucks actions of the past few decades (the late 90s, early 00s in particular). A lot of it just felt like satire at the time.
posted by philip-random at 8:32 AM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, a previous comment on this issue ...
Certainly in my town, the arrival of Starbucks actually raised the game of "good coffee" and good atmosphere. Suddenly, there was a franchise in the neighbourhood that was offering at least consistently okay coffee in an environment where the music wasn't awful, the washrooms got cleaned every now and then etc ...
I know the official narrative here on the (so-called) left is that Starbucks stomped in and undermined all manner of wonderful mom and pop outfits in the name of shareholder greed (which is not all untrue). But in my actual experience, I noticed some fairly dodgy outfits go down and others, like I said, getting serious about offering a better overall situation.
I do remain bemused by all the anti-Starbucks actions of the past few decades (the late 90s, early 00s in particular). A lot of it just felt like satire at the time.
posted by philip-random at 8:32 AM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
We want to believe in a middle-class America where hard work being born weaves its own safety net.
Honestly I think the causality is "both" and the solutions will include both and other stuff we're not considering. Building unions and building good organizational structures that support workers across a sector while also working from the other side to provide similar protections for ALL workers union or otherwise works to close the gap until worker protections are so good and unions so prevalent that treating all workers as one big union isn't really much different than what exists in this theoretical future. It's just a tiny change that won't change much so why not?
Right now that would be such an epically large shift that the political will required to drive that change probably involves armies and revolution.
posted by VTX at 8:36 AM on July 24, 2023
Honestly I think the causality is "both" and the solutions will include both and other stuff we're not considering. Building unions and building good organizational structures that support workers across a sector while also working from the other side to provide similar protections for ALL workers union or otherwise works to close the gap until worker protections are so good and unions so prevalent that treating all workers as one big union isn't really much different than what exists in this theoretical future. It's just a tiny change that won't change much so why not?
Right now that would be such an epically large shift that the political will required to drive that change probably involves armies and revolution.
posted by VTX at 8:36 AM on July 24, 2023
There are also philistines like myself who are caffeine junkies who don't appreciate as much as tolerate the taste of most coffees and prefer a heavily adulterated thing. Ever since Schultz ran for president, I've been more intent on doing my own combination of syrups and milks together at the house, because WTF was that?
posted by Selena777 at 9:16 AM on July 24, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 9:16 AM on July 24, 2023
Go get a 3-pound can of Maxwell House
Maxwell House knows what it is. Starbucks wants us to think it's more than it is. Preferring my swill to be honest about its naked corporate greed is indeed my privileged choice to make. Feel free to froth more in your defense of Starbucks though.
posted by Panjandrum at 10:54 AM on July 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maxwell House knows what it is. Starbucks wants us to think it's more than it is. Preferring my swill to be honest about its naked corporate greed is indeed my privileged choice to make. Feel free to froth more in your defense of Starbucks though.
posted by Panjandrum at 10:54 AM on July 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I haven't trotted out this hobby horse in a while, but Repeal Taft-Hartley.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:37 PM on July 24, 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 1:37 PM on July 24, 2023
FFS you are spoiled rotten. The coffee that you think is *good*, there isn't enough of that grown in the whole world in a year to supply *$ operations (or the operations of anybody working on a scale like *$) for even a month. Recognize your privilege, that you can make such distinctions.
There are so many assumptions in this response about the poster you're responding to. They said nothing about what "good coffee" means to them, but you accuse them of being spoiled and basically write the judgiest post in the thread based on a fairly benign opinion.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:03 PM on July 24, 2023 [16 favorites]
There are so many assumptions in this response about the poster you're responding to. They said nothing about what "good coffee" means to them, but you accuse them of being spoiled and basically write the judgiest post in the thread based on a fairly benign opinion.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:03 PM on July 24, 2023 [16 favorites]
I resemble them, oneirodynia, I'm okay with my privilege and the money I spend on coffee I like. I know that the coffee and chocolate I consume are at prices out of reach of the communities that produce these treats.
I don't think being down on other people is okay; I expect to be strongly criticized by people who would be allies -- we have overlapping intersections of interest -- if we could get past the infighting.
posted by k3ninho at 3:39 PM on July 24, 2023
I don't think being down on other people is okay; I expect to be strongly criticized by people who would be allies -- we have overlapping intersections of interest -- if we could get past the infighting.
posted by k3ninho at 3:39 PM on July 24, 2023
oneirodynia, I see that you do not know a lot about the coffee industry and about the people who can complain about $* coffee not being good.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 6:26 PM on July 24, 2023
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 6:26 PM on July 24, 2023
The stupid NY Times wants bootstraps...most of us want the safety net to already be in place before we ever get on the tightrope.
In the context of this piece, that's like saying stupid Mark Antony wanted you to know Brutus was an honorable man.
posted by mark k at 6:27 PM on July 24, 2023
In the context of this piece, that's like saying stupid Mark Antony wanted you to know Brutus was an honorable man.
posted by mark k at 6:27 PM on July 24, 2023
I thought this was a great piece; I know it's an opinion piece but it's rare to see a longform piece in mainstream print media like the NYT that so directly admits that companies are flagrantly breaking unionizing laws.
And it really makes Schultz look like an ass, so it's accurate on that point, too.
posted by mark k at 6:36 PM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
And it really makes Schultz look like an ass, so it's accurate on that point, too.
posted by mark k at 6:36 PM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The NLRB is, itself, a means of keeping order and channeling the radical energy of a labor action into a drawn-out, rationalized, legalistic "negotiation process" between labor and capital. It removes agency from the rank and file and strengthens hierarchical structures in the union itself by requiring the services of a few professionals to manage the process for the rest. Labor sure had a lot more energy before the New Deal and seemed to lose it in the years after.
You can try to give the NLRB some enforcement powers, but its power will at best simply ebb and flow over each administration -- and if you can get even half of congress to let it flow just once, I'd be amazed. Even then, the effect would still be marginal. Labor has one lever of power: preventing the operation of the business. It's not in any company's interest or any government's interest to let that happen.
That said, wildcat strikes are difficult and gov'ts and corporations have historically responded to them with violence. Pre-New Deal labor history was bloody and disorderly. Would the starbucks workers get solidarity and support from anyone else if they went that route?
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 7:59 PM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can try to give the NLRB some enforcement powers, but its power will at best simply ebb and flow over each administration -- and if you can get even half of congress to let it flow just once, I'd be amazed. Even then, the effect would still be marginal. Labor has one lever of power: preventing the operation of the business. It's not in any company's interest or any government's interest to let that happen.
That said, wildcat strikes are difficult and gov'ts and corporations have historically responded to them with violence. Pre-New Deal labor history was bloody and disorderly. Would the starbucks workers get solidarity and support from anyone else if they went that route?
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 7:59 PM on July 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Certainly in my town, the arrival of Starbucks actually raised the game of "good coffee" and good atmosphere.
When they tried to set up shop here in Australia in the oughties it went badly, mainly because we already had a very well established and good quality, local café based, coffee culture with its roots in the mid 20th century. We know what good coffee tastes like, and the settings in which to enjoy it, and made it very clear that we did not want to trade that for bland corporate sludge.
To this day there are still only 59 Starbucks stores here (1 store per 475 000 people). Compare to the USA (1 store per 21 000), or Canada (1 store per 17 000).
Don't get between an Aussie and a decent cup of coffee.
posted by Pouteria at 11:48 PM on July 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
When they tried to set up shop here in Australia in the oughties it went badly, mainly because we already had a very well established and good quality, local café based, coffee culture with its roots in the mid 20th century. We know what good coffee tastes like, and the settings in which to enjoy it, and made it very clear that we did not want to trade that for bland corporate sludge.
To this day there are still only 59 Starbucks stores here (1 store per 475 000 people). Compare to the USA (1 store per 21 000), or Canada (1 store per 17 000).
Don't get between an Aussie and a decent cup of coffee.
posted by Pouteria at 11:48 PM on July 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Imagine having to bring out guns to break a Starbucks strike, in two seconds everyone decided the coffee wasn't shit anyway. There's always another brand where that came from (and presumably the workers should move on to that brand).
posted by kingdead at 12:20 AM on July 25, 2023
posted by kingdead at 12:20 AM on July 25, 2023
Even if somehow union drives like the one at Starbucks managed to succeed, what about the millions and millions of people shackled to similarly lousy jobs who remain unrepresented?
Essentially every worker protection and benefit right down to the nominal 40 hour week and actually getting paid in money and not script is the result of union action.
posted by Mitheral at 1:33 AM on July 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
Essentially every worker protection and benefit right down to the nominal 40 hour week and actually getting paid in money and not script is the result of union action.
posted by Mitheral at 1:33 AM on July 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
A newly-recognized union can only take some portion of the operating margin of the employer, and it only takes that if it has an effective strike power.
When you can strike effectively, but you're asking for what the margin can't give, the business closes. (At its US margins, Starbucks can probably afford about a third of the ~$15/hour total labor cost increase the union is demanding.)
When you can't strike effectively, you can't get much out of the employer in the new contract. Starbucks strikers will be easily replaced, so it's a question of whether workers can effectively picket and customers will honor the picket lines. Hard to tell at this point.
I don't what to make of the union refusing to bargain in person. Seems profoundly unserious.
posted by MattD at 7:28 AM on July 25, 2023
When you can strike effectively, but you're asking for what the margin can't give, the business closes. (At its US margins, Starbucks can probably afford about a third of the ~$15/hour total labor cost increase the union is demanding.)
When you can't strike effectively, you can't get much out of the employer in the new contract. Starbucks strikers will be easily replaced, so it's a question of whether workers can effectively picket and customers will honor the picket lines. Hard to tell at this point.
I don't what to make of the union refusing to bargain in person. Seems profoundly unserious.
posted by MattD at 7:28 AM on July 25, 2023
but you're asking for what the margin can't give, the business closes.
Or, more frequently, what the margin WON'T give. In particular, the shareholders who demand that margin be maximized every single quarter, and take the view of losing a few shops as absorbable attrition if it keeps the margin of the rest as high as possible.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:40 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Or, more frequently, what the margin WON'T give. In particular, the shareholders who demand that margin be maximized every single quarter, and take the view of losing a few shops as absorbable attrition if it keeps the margin of the rest as high as possible.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:40 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
When you can't strike effectively, you can't get much out of the employer in the new contract. Starbucks strikers will be easily replaced, so it's a question of whether workers can effectively picket and customers will honor the picket lines. Hard to tell at this point.
Not sure I agree with this. The unemployment rate is like 3.6% and there is no way Starbucks is going to contain their labor costs (and their upscale image) by hiring the same way McDonalds and other fast food places do - by hiring lots of new immigrants at low wages that can barely speak English. Now is literally the 2nd best time for Starbucks employees to strike. The best time would have been ~20 years ago, when chain coffee market was much smaller.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:43 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not sure I agree with this. The unemployment rate is like 3.6% and there is no way Starbucks is going to contain their labor costs (and their upscale image) by hiring the same way McDonalds and other fast food places do - by hiring lots of new immigrants at low wages that can barely speak English. Now is literally the 2nd best time for Starbucks employees to strike. The best time would have been ~20 years ago, when chain coffee market was much smaller.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:43 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, these companies aren't broke -- they are just not interested in compensating the rank and file.
posted by Dark Messiah at 7:59 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dark Messiah at 7:59 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
UPS, Teamsters reach labor deal to avoid strike
posted by Artw at 10:39 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:39 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
>"When you can strike effectively, but you're asking for what the margin can't give, the business closes. (At its US margins, Starbucks can probably afford about a third of the ~$15/hour total labor cost increase the union is demanding.)"
Not if the workers take over the location and run it themselves.
Another thing to ask is why are the workers' wages the only thing that doesn't fit into the "margin" ? What about Starbucks Corporate's licensing fees (it's not a franchise), the costs of buying from starbucks corporate's coffee and "retail support" services? The Licensee's profit?
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 11:43 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not if the workers take over the location and run it themselves.
Another thing to ask is why are the workers' wages the only thing that doesn't fit into the "margin" ? What about Starbucks Corporate's licensing fees (it's not a franchise), the costs of buying from starbucks corporate's coffee and "retail support" services? The Licensee's profit?
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 11:43 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
In particular, the shareholders who demand that margin be maximized every single quarter, and take the view of losing a few shops as absorbable attrition if it keeps the margin of the rest as high as possible.
Yeah, how come those "few shops" closing isn't described as taking what the margin can't give? Seems apparent that "margin" is only defined one way, and to one faction's advantage.
posted by rhizome at 11:56 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, how come those "few shops" closing isn't described as taking what the margin can't give? Seems apparent that "margin" is only defined one way, and to one faction's advantage.
posted by rhizome at 11:56 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
If your business can't afford to pay a living wage it's not a business it's a hobby your workers are subsidizing.
posted by Mitheral at 4:43 PM on July 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 4:43 PM on July 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I wager unionized workforces generally result in better, more productive employees with much less turnover. So it's as simple as "Workers cost money the business can't afford."
But also, this is fucking capitalism* and it's competitive and brutal. You're a big fancy corporation with tons of resources at its disposal. Adapt, innovate and overcome your new business challenges or fucking die! Come on Starbucks, grab your fucking bootstraps and pull yourself up just like our corporate overlords tell us we're supposed to be doing.
*Not really though, actual capitalism gets the shit regulated out of it until it works for the public good. But that's a conversation for a different thread.
posted by VTX at 7:42 AM on July 27, 2023
But also, this is fucking capitalism* and it's competitive and brutal. You're a big fancy corporation with tons of resources at its disposal. Adapt, innovate and overcome your new business challenges or fucking die! Come on Starbucks, grab your fucking bootstraps and pull yourself up just like our corporate overlords tell us we're supposed to be doing.
*Not really though, actual capitalism gets the shit regulated out of it until it works for the public good. But that's a conversation for a different thread.
posted by VTX at 7:42 AM on July 27, 2023
oneirodynia, I see that you do not know a lot about the coffee industry and about the people who can complain about $* coffee not being good.
Ooh, another assumption from you! I'll take percolator coffee over Starbucks any day. It doesn't require 20 ounces of milk to make it palatable.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:16 PM on July 27, 2023
Ooh, another assumption from you! I'll take percolator coffee over Starbucks any day. It doesn't require 20 ounces of milk to make it palatable.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:16 PM on July 27, 2023
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posted by constraint at 11:02 PM on July 23, 2023 [4 favorites]