Towards a critical analysis of this summer's latest blockbuster
July 24, 2023 3:59 PM Subscribe
The Plastic Feminism of Barbie [yt]
Barbie is the classic material girl. Scholars say she represents much more — for better or worse.
We Sold Feminism to the Masses, and Now It Means Nothing
Barbie is the classic material girl. Scholars say she represents much more — for better or worse.
The initial backlash against Barbie came from a kind of scholarly media criticism that was taking place in the ’90s that focused on the gap between what we would see in the media and what we knew about reality,” Kidd said. “And that led to lots of critiques of different types of popular culture — from sitcoms like ‘Friends,’ where the apartment was way bigger than what anyone like that could afford in New York City to critiques of Barbie’s measurements.”How Mattel Harnesses the Brand Narrative to Create a Barbie World
[...] Materialism and consumerism figure heavily into the promotion of the “Barbie” film. Ahead of its premiere, Mattel collaborated with a wide range of companies on merchandise to promote the movie, including Hot Topic, Forever 21, Xbox, Ulta Beauty, Bloomingdale’s and Hot Wheels. Fans can also use Airbnb to stay at a real-life version of Barbie’s Malibu DreamHouse or experience the doll’s lifestyle and careers through the interactive activities offered through the World of Barbie in Los Angeles.
“In some sense Barbie invites more of a critique because she is a role model of mass consumption, but she isn’t given that critique,” Wright said. “She is like other female archetypes, really criticized for what she represents and how she’s presenting herself in the world. It really comes back to women’s embodiment and what that symbolizes.”
The fascination with all things Brand Barbie is understandable, and in fact, consumer perception is key to trademark law. In any event, the history of Mattel’s fierce protection of the intellectual property in its world of Barbie collaborations, including working with former adversaries, provides for an interesting discussion.In Our Real World, Barbie’s Plastic Is Not So Fantastic
The Wall Street Journal reports that there are currently more than 100 Barbie-themed brand collaborations under way. The WSJ goes on to report that “Mattel has been approaching partners over the last 18 months, eager to fill the market with Barbie products” – from Barbie-themed pool floats and roller blades to a Barbie-centric tie-up between Mattel and Burger King. “In some agreements, a brand pays Mattel a flat licensing fee, while others give Mattel a 5 percent to 15 percent cut of sales.”
[...]Mattel has created such a marketing influx that nearly any good or service, no matter how unrelated to its most immediate offerings, may be seen as a collaboration expanding the reach of protection for – and enforceability of – Brand Barbie and literally creating a “Barbie World.”
As the Barbie movie rolls out worldwide, it has already sparked a surge in sales of Barbie dolls and accessories (the day a Margot Robbie Barbie went on sale, it became the number-one selling doll on Amazon), in addition to causing a surge in sales of synthetic early 2000s style fast-fashion clothing.Background and Additional Details
Consider the explosion and pollution plume caused by the toxic trail derailment in Ohio earlier this year: Some of the train cars that derailed were carrying highly toxic ingredients used to make polyvinyl chloride (PVC)—a plastic used to make water pipes, flooring, and childhood toys…including Barbies.
We Sold Feminism to the Masses, and Now It Means Nothing
“Feminism’s recently skyrocketing profile is a reminder that the best way to constrain the power of a social movement is to commodify it,” Zeisler wrote in an essay about her book for Time. “Just ask Dove, or Verizon or Always, brands that in the past few years have seemed to suddenly realize that flattering women with overtures to and images of female empowerment could offer a better return than classic ad tactics of appealing to feminine shame and insecurity.” Marketplace feminism, Zeisler contends, is “a way to promise potential detractors that feminism can exist in fundamentally unequal spaces without posing any foundational changes to them.”Capitalist Realism: What if you held a protest and everyone came? (ch 2)
Time after time, the villain in Hollywood films will turn out to be the ‘evil corporation’. Far from undermining capitalist realism, this gestural anti-capitalism actually reinforces it. The film performs our anti-capitalism for us, allowing us to continue to consume with impunity. The role of capitalist ideology is not to make an explicit case for something in the way that propaganda does, but to conceal the fact that the operations of capital do not depend on any sort of subjectively assumed belief.Deterioration of Mattel’s Labor Conditions: An Investigation of Four Factories
Capitalist ideology in general, Žižek maintains, consists precisely in the overvaluing of belief – in the sense of inner subjective attitude – at the expense of the beliefs we exhibit and externalize in our behavior. [...] The fantasy (is) that western consumerism, far from being intrinsically implicated in systemic global inequalities, could itself solve them. All we have to do is buy the right products.
Despite each of the four factories receiving a “seal of compliance” from Mattel’s auditor, all of the factories were riddled with legal and ethical violations. Altogether, CLW uncovered at least 15 violations including forced labor, unpaid work, abuse of dispatch workers, poor living conditions
I remember when I was in a Trotskyist Study Group and we were studying Marx's Labor Theory of Value. I used Barbie as an example of something that violated the Labor Theory: Barbies cost a lot more than other similar plastic dolls because the brand itself had value. Now I need a new theory for all these tie-ins and the synergistic profit that will ensue. I'm pretty sure that this movie, turning its own values on its head, is explained by Hegel. And yeah, they expelled me from the Study Group.
posted by acrasis at 4:22 PM on July 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by acrasis at 4:22 PM on July 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
I do think this film is going to be seen in 50 years as the apotheosis of a particular capitalist strategy of capturing a criticism and marketing it right back to the affected.
Nonetheless...when I was a kid I despised Barbie. Partially it was that I had no interest in domesticity or compulsory traditional femininity, but part of it was that my very second-wave feminism was infected with the belief that femininity altogether somehow genuinely was inferior, and that was...frankly, it sucked. You'll still never catch me wearing pink, but pink isn't inherently bad/wrong/inferior, and living near a theater I've really enjoyed watching all the young people--girls, boys, question marks--having fun with it.
And, yes, I would happily take a twelve-year-old niece to a film that starts off with a paradise where men are neither specifically oppressed nor struggled against, they're just an afterthought. I think that, more than anything else, is what is driving people like Ben Shapiro insane, and it's an important move!
posted by praemunire at 4:55 PM on July 24, 2023 [45 favorites]
Nonetheless...when I was a kid I despised Barbie. Partially it was that I had no interest in domesticity or compulsory traditional femininity, but part of it was that my very second-wave feminism was infected with the belief that femininity altogether somehow genuinely was inferior, and that was...frankly, it sucked. You'll still never catch me wearing pink, but pink isn't inherently bad/wrong/inferior, and living near a theater I've really enjoyed watching all the young people--girls, boys, question marks--having fun with it.
And, yes, I would happily take a twelve-year-old niece to a film that starts off with a paradise where men are neither specifically oppressed nor struggled against, they're just an afterthought. I think that, more than anything else, is what is driving people like Ben Shapiro insane, and it's an important move!
posted by praemunire at 4:55 PM on July 24, 2023 [45 favorites]
Capitalist ideology in general, Žižek maintains, consists precisely in the overvaluing of belief – in the sense of inner subjective attitude – at the expense of the beliefs we exhibit and externalize in our behavior.
I'd say the same thing about the sort of Evangelical Christianity I grew up with. I've been gradually realizing that the obsessive focus on correct belief has made me, as far as my actions go, a morally worse person than I could've been. It's not that I go out of my way to be a bad person; it's just that having correct beliefs comes first for me, ahead of doing good.
As for Barbie... I'm not sure if it's possible for a thoughtful person to not have complicated feelings about it. So here's some factory footage for a similar doll. I swear I've seen some 1960s footage of a Barbie factory in Malaysia or Indonesia, but I'm not finding it at the moment...
posted by clawsoon at 5:25 PM on July 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'd say the same thing about the sort of Evangelical Christianity I grew up with. I've been gradually realizing that the obsessive focus on correct belief has made me, as far as my actions go, a morally worse person than I could've been. It's not that I go out of my way to be a bad person; it's just that having correct beliefs comes first for me, ahead of doing good.
As for Barbie... I'm not sure if it's possible for a thoughtful person to not have complicated feelings about it. So here's some factory footage for a similar doll. I swear I've seen some 1960s footage of a Barbie factory in Malaysia or Indonesia, but I'm not finding it at the moment...
posted by clawsoon at 5:25 PM on July 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
I fully admit I have not had time to R all these F As, but does it not seem as if some of these critics had their essays locked and loaded regardless of the quality of the movie?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:12 PM on July 24, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:12 PM on July 24, 2023 [21 favorites]
The video points out something fascinating about the rhetoric by which the film tries to have its cake and eat it too. It sounds like the film spends an inordinate amount of effort and screen time anticipating criticisms of Barbie (or just collating the many criticisms that have already come) and tries to preempt (post-empt?), blunt, circumvent, or lampoon those criticisms. It's an apologia. The cards are on the table and we all know the score, the movie says... now let's move on and just have some fun with our problematic fave, okay?
In light of that, maybe it's not a coincidence that when I think about telling friends who want to see Barbie that I am not very interested in seeing Barbie, I get a little twinge of anxiety about being seen as no fun.
posted by cubeb at 7:35 PM on July 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
In light of that, maybe it's not a coincidence that when I think about telling friends who want to see Barbie that I am not very interested in seeing Barbie, I get a little twinge of anxiety about being seen as no fun.
posted by cubeb at 7:35 PM on July 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
I've been thinking about this movie for days now. It's really fun and very very pink and kind of stupid but it's also subversive in this way, I think: if girls are being taken to this movie, they get to witness America Ferrera's monologue. They will be confronted with all these contradictions within culture about what being a woman "means", and they will get to start deconstructing those ideas early in life, before they end up living through those contradictions and ending up pissed off and confused in real life. They will have the language to put to these cultural stupidities. And if you have the name for a thing, it's easier to defeat the thing.
I think it's a lovely little time bomb, not of explosion but of diffusion, giving women the language they need to begin to address our culture.
I know none of those are new thoughts or ideas, but they've rarely been expressed so succinctly before in a blockbuster movie, and I see value in that.
posted by hippybear at 7:39 PM on July 24, 2023 [43 favorites]
I think it's a lovely little time bomb, not of explosion but of diffusion, giving women the language they need to begin to address our culture.
I know none of those are new thoughts or ideas, but they've rarely been expressed so succinctly before in a blockbuster movie, and I see value in that.
posted by hippybear at 7:39 PM on July 24, 2023 [43 favorites]
From "We Sold Feminism to the Masses, and Now It Means Nothing":
“Just ask Dove, or Verizon or Always, brands that in the past few years have seemed to suddenly realize that flattering women with overtures to and images of female empowerment could offer a better return than classic ad tactics of appealing to feminine shame and insecurity.”
That's not nothing, though, is it? The kind of abuses that can be done to people who've been taught shame and insecurity are very different from what can be done to people who've been taught self-love and empowerment.
It's, like, we're all still worshipping in the church of capitalism, but a church where the preacher screams that we're all going to Hell if we have the merest dirty thought (or dare to allow a woman to teach!) has some important differences from a church that teaches love and acceptance and equality.
posted by clawsoon at 8:04 PM on July 24, 2023 [19 favorites]
“Just ask Dove, or Verizon or Always, brands that in the past few years have seemed to suddenly realize that flattering women with overtures to and images of female empowerment could offer a better return than classic ad tactics of appealing to feminine shame and insecurity.”
That's not nothing, though, is it? The kind of abuses that can be done to people who've been taught shame and insecurity are very different from what can be done to people who've been taught self-love and empowerment.
It's, like, we're all still worshipping in the church of capitalism, but a church where the preacher screams that we're all going to Hell if we have the merest dirty thought (or dare to allow a woman to teach!) has some important differences from a church that teaches love and acceptance and equality.
posted by clawsoon at 8:04 PM on July 24, 2023 [19 favorites]
“In some sense Barbie invites more of a critique because she is a role model of mass consumption, but she isn’t given that critique,” Wright said.
...Not now, maybe, but at one point, she kind of was.
Back in April, during an earlier discussion about Barbie, I shared a sudden memory I'd had - that of another doll family, The Sunshine Family. The whole vibe around The Sunshine Family were that they were a sort of simpler, hippie Barbie - instead of a Corvette, the Sunshine Family had a surrey bike. Their "dream house" was a modest bungalow, and you got a little booklet that showed you how you could DIY your own furniture for it - using old tissue boxes to make a bed, and like potato-print stamps to decorate a scrap of fabric for a quilt. Barbie had a gabillion careers, but the Sunshine Family had a little craft store with a spinning wheel and some pottery. The "Family" members included mother, father, and a baby, and later the addition of a toddler-age big sister; plus an unmarried aunt who had her own baby, and a pair of grandparents. There was also an African-American "Happy Family" with the same familial makeup and the same 70s DIY vibe.
I had a set of the nuclear Sunshine Family when I was small and I definitely remember playing with them; I forgot all about them for years until April, and spent a fascinated few weeks reading about them. And that's when I found that The Sunshine Family were expressly created to be a less-consumerist answer to Barbie. Here's an essay from another woman who grew up in the 70s which ABSOLUTELY captures what that vibe was - and also suggests why The Sunshine Family was ultimately unable to withstand against The Forces Of Barbie Consumerism.
But yeah, that critique of consumerism definitely was there for a while.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 PM on July 24, 2023 [19 favorites]
...Not now, maybe, but at one point, she kind of was.
Back in April, during an earlier discussion about Barbie, I shared a sudden memory I'd had - that of another doll family, The Sunshine Family. The whole vibe around The Sunshine Family were that they were a sort of simpler, hippie Barbie - instead of a Corvette, the Sunshine Family had a surrey bike. Their "dream house" was a modest bungalow, and you got a little booklet that showed you how you could DIY your own furniture for it - using old tissue boxes to make a bed, and like potato-print stamps to decorate a scrap of fabric for a quilt. Barbie had a gabillion careers, but the Sunshine Family had a little craft store with a spinning wheel and some pottery. The "Family" members included mother, father, and a baby, and later the addition of a toddler-age big sister; plus an unmarried aunt who had her own baby, and a pair of grandparents. There was also an African-American "Happy Family" with the same familial makeup and the same 70s DIY vibe.
I had a set of the nuclear Sunshine Family when I was small and I definitely remember playing with them; I forgot all about them for years until April, and spent a fascinated few weeks reading about them. And that's when I found that The Sunshine Family were expressly created to be a less-consumerist answer to Barbie. Here's an essay from another woman who grew up in the 70s which ABSOLUTELY captures what that vibe was - and also suggests why The Sunshine Family was ultimately unable to withstand against The Forces Of Barbie Consumerism.
But yeah, that critique of consumerism definitely was there for a while.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 PM on July 24, 2023 [19 favorites]
Thanks for posting all of this. One thing I was glad she covered in the video was that she and her co-writer left the movie feeling worse about their own bodies! I haven't seen the movie - I probably will eventually and it sounds like something I would enjoy - but the marketing has really reminded me of my teenage years, seeing photos of celebrities with those low jeans and flat bellies and knowing I would never, ever look like that. We were always told that Barbie is so unrealistic that if she were a human she wouldn't be able to stand! or walk! or something. Yet I have seen photo after photo of Margot Robbie on this red carpet or that proving that you CAN look like Barbie, it's just that I never will.
And I'm an adult woman who is pretty happy in my body and actually has a lot of thin privilege and all that. I get that Hollywood is in a bind there because movies about average looking women aren't big hits, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect me.
That's also the ongoing problem with taking a major character from the 60s or really anytime in history - they're usually white (if you are choosing a character everyone will know), so either you have to race-blind cast them and piss a bunch of people off or you have to make a movie about white people. I know president Barbie is Issa Rae and the second Ken is Simu Liu, it's a diverse cast etc. But I have seen only the marketing, and it is all Margot Robbie, with some backup from Ken. Nothing against Margot Robbie in particular, I know she is a very impressive woman, she just happens to be Barbie.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:35 PM on July 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
And I'm an adult woman who is pretty happy in my body and actually has a lot of thin privilege and all that. I get that Hollywood is in a bind there because movies about average looking women aren't big hits, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect me.
That's also the ongoing problem with taking a major character from the 60s or really anytime in history - they're usually white (if you are choosing a character everyone will know), so either you have to race-blind cast them and piss a bunch of people off or you have to make a movie about white people. I know president Barbie is Issa Rae and the second Ken is Simu Liu, it's a diverse cast etc. But I have seen only the marketing, and it is all Margot Robbie, with some backup from Ken. Nothing against Margot Robbie in particular, I know she is a very impressive woman, she just happens to be Barbie.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:35 PM on July 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
I haven’t seen the film or read all the discussion (hat tip to paimapi) - my possibly simplistic feeling has been that there was definitely room for a film about Barrie, but maybe not one made by Mattel.
posted by Phanx at 10:36 PM on July 24, 2023
posted by Phanx at 10:36 PM on July 24, 2023
Back in April, during an earlier discussion about Barbie, I shared a sudden memory I'd had - that of another doll family, The Sunshine Family. The whole vibe around The Sunshine Family were that they were a sort of simpler, hippie Barbie - instead of a Corvette, the Sunshine Family had a surrey bike. Their "dream house" was a modest bungalow, and you got a little booklet that showed you how you could DIY your own furniture for it - using old tissue boxes to make a bed, and like potato-print stamps to decorate a scrap of fabric for a quilt.
As a child in eighties Britain, this was mostly how my schoolfriends and I played with any fashion doll. The DIY component was never included in the marketing, but most of the families I knew had no money to burn on branded accessories. We defaulted to making furniture and clothes. Vaguely educational BBC programming like Blue Peter had regular features on how to make a box room for your Sindy doll (the local equivalent of Barbie); I can't find any examples online, but this is similar, from a later decade: Blue Peter Doll's Kitchen
posted by Ballad of Peckham Rye at 3:23 AM on July 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
As a child in eighties Britain, this was mostly how my schoolfriends and I played with any fashion doll. The DIY component was never included in the marketing, but most of the families I knew had no money to burn on branded accessories. We defaulted to making furniture and clothes. Vaguely educational BBC programming like Blue Peter had regular features on how to make a box room for your Sindy doll (the local equivalent of Barbie); I can't find any examples online, but this is similar, from a later decade: Blue Peter Doll's Kitchen
posted by Ballad of Peckham Rye at 3:23 AM on July 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
As a child in eighties Britain, this was mostly how my schoolfriends and I played with any fashion doll. The DIY component was never included in the marketing, but most of the families I knew had no money to burn on branded accessories. We defaulted to making furniture and clothes. Vaguely educational BBC programming like Blue Peter had regular features on how to make a box room for your Sindy doll (the local equivalent of Barbie)....
A lot of US Barbie fans were in the same economic boat. When I was into Barbies my playmates and I mostly just hung with the one of us who had the biggest collection of Barbie-anea and used all her shit.
But with the Sunshine Family this kind of non-consumerism was intentional; yeah, they still made accessories you could buy for Steve, Stephie and Baby Sweets, but it was stuff like, a small three-room cabin instead of a dream house, a rocking chair instead of a hot tub. A milk cow instead of a show horse. I think they only had four or five outfits instead of hundreds, and they were things like Stephie-sized Gunne Sax sundresses and aprons or Steve-sized flannel shirts and turtlenecks. These were toys that were expressly made for the early 70s anti-consumerism back-to-the-land aesthetic, for families where Mom and Dad met in a commune and they still baked their own bread and ate granola and there was macrame all over the place.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:12 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
A lot of US Barbie fans were in the same economic boat. When I was into Barbies my playmates and I mostly just hung with the one of us who had the biggest collection of Barbie-anea and used all her shit.
But with the Sunshine Family this kind of non-consumerism was intentional; yeah, they still made accessories you could buy for Steve, Stephie and Baby Sweets, but it was stuff like, a small three-room cabin instead of a dream house, a rocking chair instead of a hot tub. A milk cow instead of a show horse. I think they only had four or five outfits instead of hundreds, and they were things like Stephie-sized Gunne Sax sundresses and aprons or Steve-sized flannel shirts and turtlenecks. These were toys that were expressly made for the early 70s anti-consumerism back-to-the-land aesthetic, for families where Mom and Dad met in a commune and they still baked their own bread and ate granola and there was macrame all over the place.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:12 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
"It is literally impossible to be a woman. You are so beautiful, and so smart, and it kills me that you don’t think you’re good enough," Gloria tells Barbie. "Like, we have to always be extraordinary, but somehow we’re always doing it wrong."
Not to get too meta in the Barbie discourse, but there is certainly one way in which this movie reflects being a woman in the patriarchy: somehow, we're always doing it wrong.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 5:30 AM on July 25, 2023 [25 favorites]
Not to get too meta in the Barbie discourse, but there is certainly one way in which this movie reflects being a woman in the patriarchy: somehow, we're always doing it wrong.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 5:30 AM on July 25, 2023 [25 favorites]
A lot of US Barbie fans were in the same economic boat. When I was into Barbies my playmates and I mostly just hung with the one of us who had the biggest collection of Barbie-anea and used all her shit.
Yep, I think this was the norm (I know nothing about whether it still is).
These were toys that were expressly made for the early 70s anti-consumerism back-to-the-land aesthetic, for families where Mom and Dad met in a commune and they still baked their own bread and ate granola and there was macrame all over the place.
Right, although the Sunshine Family were also Mattel toys, so this strategy was about positioning.
posted by Ballad of Peckham Rye at 5:40 AM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yep, I think this was the norm (I know nothing about whether it still is).
These were toys that were expressly made for the early 70s anti-consumerism back-to-the-land aesthetic, for families where Mom and Dad met in a commune and they still baked their own bread and ate granola and there was macrame all over the place.
Right, although the Sunshine Family were also Mattel toys, so this strategy was about positioning.
posted by Ballad of Peckham Rye at 5:40 AM on July 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
As a child in eighties Britain, this was mostly how my schoolfriends and I played with any fashion doll. The DIY component was never included in the marketing, but most of the families I knew had no money to burn on branded accessories
As a kid who was really into Greco-Roman mythology, let me tell you how much fun you can have with you and your sister’s Barbies as “The Women of Troy” and a roll of toilet paper.
And if you happen to have a She-ra in the toy chest (and you maybe did at that time) voila! Penthesilea and/or Achilles in drag
posted by thivaia at 6:54 AM on July 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
As a kid who was really into Greco-Roman mythology, let me tell you how much fun you can have with you and your sister’s Barbies as “The Women of Troy” and a roll of toilet paper.
And if you happen to have a She-ra in the toy chest (and you maybe did at that time) voila! Penthesilea and/or Achilles in drag
posted by thivaia at 6:54 AM on July 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
The DIY component was never included in the marketing, but most of the families I knew had no money to burn on branded accessories
I think this is just a normal component of kids with imaginations (not all kids like to play with toys, even if their parents buy them a bunch of them) playing with toys, not necessarily a function of economics. Nearly every kid cuts some Barbie hair, does her make up with a sharpie, rips off a leg and bandages it up with toilet paper, builds her a house out of books or couch cushions, etc.
I'm not sure if anyone is watching the "Build a Barbie Dreamhouse" show on HGTV, but they are featuring a lot of classic actual Barbie commercials, and one references making Ken into a 'villain' with a add on mustache.
. It sounds like the film spends an inordinate amount of effort and screen time anticipating criticisms of Barbie (or just collating the many criticisms that have already come) and tries to preempt (post-empt?), blunt, circumvent, or lampoon those criticisms.
IMO it doesn't really. There are some it completely sidesteps (how much her lifestyle would cost/her actual job/consumerism). But the movie is a comedy, so yes it lampoons some aspects of Barbie. I would again compare it in tone to the Lego movies. Love, but also criticize.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:34 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think this is just a normal component of kids with imaginations (not all kids like to play with toys, even if their parents buy them a bunch of them) playing with toys, not necessarily a function of economics. Nearly every kid cuts some Barbie hair, does her make up with a sharpie, rips off a leg and bandages it up with toilet paper, builds her a house out of books or couch cushions, etc.
I'm not sure if anyone is watching the "Build a Barbie Dreamhouse" show on HGTV, but they are featuring a lot of classic actual Barbie commercials, and one references making Ken into a 'villain' with a add on mustache.
. It sounds like the film spends an inordinate amount of effort and screen time anticipating criticisms of Barbie (or just collating the many criticisms that have already come) and tries to preempt (post-empt?), blunt, circumvent, or lampoon those criticisms.
IMO it doesn't really. There are some it completely sidesteps (how much her lifestyle would cost/her actual job/consumerism). But the movie is a comedy, so yes it lampoons some aspects of Barbie. I would again compare it in tone to the Lego movies. Love, but also criticize.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:34 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
but does it not seem as if some of these critics had their essays locked and loaded regardless of the quality of the movie?
it's almost as if they're talking about Barbie as IP for a multinational toy company and its impact on culture and not just close reading Barbie the Movie's text? like they exist in a world where close reading as the only 'real' way to contribute to the discourse has fallen off something like 50 years ago?
what a totally imaginary and ridiculous world that would be, huh
It's, like, we're all still worshipping in the church of capitalism, but a church where the preacher screams that we're all going to Hell if we have the merest dirty thought (or dare to allow a woman to teach!) has some important differences from a church that teaches love and acceptance and equality.
I think in your metaphor, the church would not be one that preaches acceptance or equality but rather the prosperity gospel which is, imo, universally evil and bad
posted by paimapi at 7:47 AM on July 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
it's almost as if they're talking about Barbie as IP for a multinational toy company and its impact on culture and not just close reading Barbie the Movie's text? like they exist in a world where close reading as the only 'real' way to contribute to the discourse has fallen off something like 50 years ago?
what a totally imaginary and ridiculous world that would be, huh
It's, like, we're all still worshipping in the church of capitalism, but a church where the preacher screams that we're all going to Hell if we have the merest dirty thought (or dare to allow a woman to teach!) has some important differences from a church that teaches love and acceptance and equality.
I think in your metaphor, the church would not be one that preaches acceptance or equality but rather the prosperity gospel which is, imo, universally evil and bad
posted by paimapi at 7:47 AM on July 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not to get too meta in the Barbie discourse, but there is certainly one way in which this movie reflects being a woman in the patriarchy: somehow, we're always doing it wrong.
much of this criticism is coming from feminist academics and the YouTube link is a trans woman. if your comment is read uncharitably it could be interpreted as incredibly TERFy but charitably seems very defensive and not engaging with any of the actual criticism presented. much of the criticisms that I found saw Barbie, the toy pre-IP, as something that can be remixed and had been historically like with BLO, but also as being intrinsically norm setting in the way that the central character is always white, blonde, thin, conventionally attractive, and so on, and even with its cast of 'diverse' character there's never been a question of who is the star and main focus, who deserves the attention, who is central to the gaze
my partner made a comment about the inherent white feminism of Barbie the Movie and the marketing strategy behind Barbie the IP, how there's an element of tokenism that made her feel unseen, and I think that's something interesting that people will explore in later responses to this movie
posted by paimapi at 7:51 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
much of this criticism is coming from feminist academics and the YouTube link is a trans woman. if your comment is read uncharitably it could be interpreted as incredibly TERFy but charitably seems very defensive and not engaging with any of the actual criticism presented. much of the criticisms that I found saw Barbie, the toy pre-IP, as something that can be remixed and had been historically like with BLO, but also as being intrinsically norm setting in the way that the central character is always white, blonde, thin, conventionally attractive, and so on, and even with its cast of 'diverse' character there's never been a question of who is the star and main focus, who deserves the attention, who is central to the gaze
my partner made a comment about the inherent white feminism of Barbie the Movie and the marketing strategy behind Barbie the IP, how there's an element of tokenism that made her feel unseen, and I think that's something interesting that people will explore in later responses to this movie
posted by paimapi at 7:51 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think this is just a normal component of kids with imaginations
Yes, I was giving it as an example of something normal. The fact Barbies weren't marketed as DIY toys doesn't mean they weren't being used that way in play.
posted by Ballad of Peckham Rye at 7:54 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, I was giving it as an example of something normal. The fact Barbies weren't marketed as DIY toys doesn't mean they weren't being used that way in play.
posted by Ballad of Peckham Rye at 7:54 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think there's also something to be said about casting Simu Liu as their Asian representation given that most left leaning APISA folks aren't a big fan of him given his reddit comment history and after he facilitated the doxing of an APISA woman who criticized him for, well, being a tool
in terms of APISA representation, casting him felt very much like a high level corporate decision that was made without really any actual care for APISA folks - his is a stardom that is very white, at least for me, filled with people who think getting over their internalized racism about Asian men automatically equates to good politics without any kind of critical engagement with what it means to be a supposed 'ally'
I'm not sure what that says about representation on the whole in terms of their casting and their crew but, ultimately, it's still white men in charge and white men seeing material returns on their investment in this film. the criticism of commodified feminism is just that - that these actual levers of power never change, only the surface image does, and being fed this diet of media that allows for very marginal changes that need extrapolation to be seen as 'good' is a very real problem since it feels like an accomplishment simply consuming it and encouraging others to consume it too
posted by paimapi at 8:06 AM on July 25, 2023
in terms of APISA representation, casting him felt very much like a high level corporate decision that was made without really any actual care for APISA folks - his is a stardom that is very white, at least for me, filled with people who think getting over their internalized racism about Asian men automatically equates to good politics without any kind of critical engagement with what it means to be a supposed 'ally'
I'm not sure what that says about representation on the whole in terms of their casting and their crew but, ultimately, it's still white men in charge and white men seeing material returns on their investment in this film. the criticism of commodified feminism is just that - that these actual levers of power never change, only the surface image does, and being fed this diet of media that allows for very marginal changes that need extrapolation to be seen as 'good' is a very real problem since it feels like an accomplishment simply consuming it and encouraging others to consume it too
posted by paimapi at 8:06 AM on July 25, 2023
I really, really, really wish people would just go see this brilliant, hilarious, aesthetically fabulous, and powerful movie without gorging on all the queued-up hot takes and pre-gaming their outrage at [younameit]. But alas, the competitive out-clevering and circular firing squadding begins! Sisters, I love you. Guys, you're Kenough. *sigh* Go ahead and skewer me if you like, but honestly I think this movie will do a million times more good than evil in the world and I support people's right to critique it and speak out against all the imperfections in it but goddamn y'all must we constantly make the world a sour and joyless place of endless complaint about everything.
posted by SinAesthetic at 8:28 AM on July 25, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by SinAesthetic at 8:28 AM on July 25, 2023 [25 favorites]
There is something to be said about the erasure of their history with minority characters. There has been the emergence of different races of Barbies but before that there was an implicit understanding that blonde white Barbie was Barbie. Minority girls could see themselves as one of Barbie’s girlfriends that were notably absent from the movie - Christie, Kira, Theresa. They had different face molds - which was a problem when black Barbie first emerged, the casting of dark skin with euro features and long shiny dark beach-waved hair as a desirable alternative - but the same body types. This was sort of an echo of the “minority friend” trope that was happening in the media at the same time.
posted by Selena777 at 8:36 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 8:36 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Then there were Shani and her friends, an offfshoot group where the dolls were black Americans who looked that way in the different ways that you’d see more often in black focused media. I was told growing up that the designer left Mattel to create them, but a recent documentary stated that this was an in-house effort. Those face molds undoubtedly influenced what we now see when looking at black Barbies.
posted by Selena777 at 8:47 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 8:47 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I enjoyed the Barbie movie, it was fun. But it was not a radical critique of basically anything, not even patriarchy. It certainly wasn't a critique of capitalism! It had nothing to say about capitalism at all, really. Hell, it featured a fairly extended commercial in the movie for the Chevy Blazer electric vehicle (MSRP: $45k, not in the reach of an executive assistant at most firms). It was basically contemporary centrist liberalism bottled up in a movie. Kate MacKinnon was great it in though.
posted by dis_integration at 8:49 AM on July 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 8:49 AM on July 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
goddamn y'all must we constantly make the world a sour and joyless place of endless complaint about everything
"it is precisely the advantage of the new trend that we do not dogmatically anticipate the world, but only want to find the new world through criticism of the old one.... if constructing the future and settling everything for all times are not our affair, it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to ruthless criticism of all that exists...." (Karl Marx, 1843)
posted by Gerald Bostock at 9:13 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
"it is precisely the advantage of the new trend that we do not dogmatically anticipate the world, but only want to find the new world through criticism of the old one.... if constructing the future and settling everything for all times are not our affair, it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to ruthless criticism of all that exists...." (Karl Marx, 1843)
posted by Gerald Bostock at 9:13 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I really, really, really wish people would just go see this brilliant, hilarious, aesthetically fabulous, and powerful movie without gorging on all the queued-up hot takes and pre-gaming their outrage at [younameit].
Oh, going by the lively discussion in FanFare, I think half the people in here already have seen it, and are indulging in the hot-takes as part of their own post-viewing processing.
I wasn't going to - I was only on the fence interested and I picked the Oppenheimer side of that coin, plus I'm now on an unexpected budget after getting laid off a week ago. But my job search has taken a lot of unexpected left turns in the past 36 hours and brought me to a promising (and fiscally good) place, so I'm a little more stable, but MASSIVELY punch drunk right now; and I just got an unexpected "yay have a free popcorn and soda on us" coupon for today at a local movie house, so I've decided fuck it, I am going to run screaming away from my phone and go take myself to lunch and a movie today.
I think this is a film that lends itself both to deep analysis, but also to "aaaaaaaugh i just wanna escape a bit".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:39 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh, going by the lively discussion in FanFare, I think half the people in here already have seen it, and are indulging in the hot-takes as part of their own post-viewing processing.
I wasn't going to - I was only on the fence interested and I picked the Oppenheimer side of that coin, plus I'm now on an unexpected budget after getting laid off a week ago. But my job search has taken a lot of unexpected left turns in the past 36 hours and brought me to a promising (and fiscally good) place, so I'm a little more stable, but MASSIVELY punch drunk right now; and I just got an unexpected "yay have a free popcorn and soda on us" coupon for today at a local movie house, so I've decided fuck it, I am going to run screaming away from my phone and go take myself to lunch and a movie today.
I think this is a film that lends itself both to deep analysis, but also to "aaaaaaaugh i just wanna escape a bit".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:39 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh, but have you gotten the new Barbie Plate o' Beans™? It's pink!
posted by the sobsister at 10:10 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by the sobsister at 10:10 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
It had nothing to say about capitalism at all, really.
this film had and has tons to say about and for capitalism
I have not seen this much coverage on the news, about a movie and what it means for future movies/marketing, since the Keaton/Nicholson Batman
a person can enjoy a movie for "just what it is" I suppose, but it's certainly a choice
posted by elkevelvet at 10:50 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
this film had and has tons to say about and for capitalism
I have not seen this much coverage on the news, about a movie and what it means for future movies/marketing, since the Keaton/Nicholson Batman
a person can enjoy a movie for "just what it is" I suppose, but it's certainly a choice
posted by elkevelvet at 10:50 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
goddamn y'all must we constantly make the world a sour and joyless place of endless complaint about everything.
critical analysis is only sour and joyless if you tie your inherent self worth or identity to the products you consume
as an immigrant raised in a very secular househould, I've always found it odd how closely tied to peoples identities that branding and marketing was. I really enjoy and find plenty of dopamine rushes from things that I also intensely criticize. I like doing this, it's a hobby. I also think me, as a person, can enjoy problematic material while also insulating my own view of the world from certain tropes that don't accord with my values. I don't identify with these products, accordingly, but I don't think I ever did - a toy was just a toy, a cartoon a cartoon, it was never a culture or identity for me
I titled this post 'a critical analysis' so people who also enjoy doing this can jump in and talk about it. this is how I enjoy the things I consume. so it's somewhat ironic that a comment exhorting 'just let people like things' is in here not letting me enjoy the way I engage with the texts I consume
posted by paimapi at 10:51 AM on July 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
critical analysis is only sour and joyless if you tie your inherent self worth or identity to the products you consume
as an immigrant raised in a very secular househould, I've always found it odd how closely tied to peoples identities that branding and marketing was. I really enjoy and find plenty of dopamine rushes from things that I also intensely criticize. I like doing this, it's a hobby. I also think me, as a person, can enjoy problematic material while also insulating my own view of the world from certain tropes that don't accord with my values. I don't identify with these products, accordingly, but I don't think I ever did - a toy was just a toy, a cartoon a cartoon, it was never a culture or identity for me
I titled this post 'a critical analysis' so people who also enjoy doing this can jump in and talk about it. this is how I enjoy the things I consume. so it's somewhat ironic that a comment exhorting 'just let people like things' is in here not letting me enjoy the way I engage with the texts I consume
posted by paimapi at 10:51 AM on July 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I will also say, I was really hoping my linking and extensive quoting of different arguments in the post would ensure that people would know what they were getting into in a thread like this one. additionally, I was also hoping that people would at least read the citations that I spent a couple hours curating before taking a shit all over this discussion. but alas
posted by paimapi at 10:56 AM on July 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by paimapi at 10:56 AM on July 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Paimapi, you did fine, some people just like to take dumps on everything.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:05 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:05 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
ultimately, it's still white men in charge and white men seeing material returns on their investment in this film
White people. LuckyChap is Robbie and her husband; GG/NB Productions is who you might think it is. I expect the success of Barbie represents generational wealth, in the real sense, for Robbie and probably Gerwig, too.
While it should be obvious I don't agree with every critique of this movie (and some of the anti-Simu Liu stuff seems to be from the "discard forever a person of a marginalized identity who's having some success, on the basis of semi-substantiated rumors and/or errors in judgment that are routinely forgiven white men" school), if a person can't assemble links to a set of critiques from different, thoughtful angles in a Blue post, not even on Fanfare (which is supposed to allow criticism!), without being accused of being opposed to fun...well, I don't know.
posted by praemunire at 11:11 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
White people. LuckyChap is Robbie and her husband; GG/NB Productions is who you might think it is. I expect the success of Barbie represents generational wealth, in the real sense, for Robbie and probably Gerwig, too.
While it should be obvious I don't agree with every critique of this movie (and some of the anti-Simu Liu stuff seems to be from the "discard forever a person of a marginalized identity who's having some success, on the basis of semi-substantiated rumors and/or errors in judgment that are routinely forgiven white men" school), if a person can't assemble links to a set of critiques from different, thoughtful angles in a Blue post, not even on Fanfare (which is supposed to allow criticism!), without being accused of being opposed to fun...well, I don't know.
posted by praemunire at 11:11 AM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
oh I could make a whole post about how apathetic to poorly regarded Simu Liu appears to be in APISA communities (at least the ones engaged in politics and analysis) and why just allowing the 'A' in APISA to be represented in film is both shitty and a historical practice but I'll take a seat and stop soapboxing now lol
posted by paimapi at 11:17 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by paimapi at 11:17 AM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is totally not my type of movie, but I have to admit I was surprised. First, by the degree to which it is definitely just a commercial, in particular for GM. At the restaurant after the show, we saw a GM commercial that consisted entirely of a scene lifted directly from the movie. Pretty fuckin' gross. (But I hate commercial blockbusters in general so it just reinforced my cynicism...)
But also because there's a message in there that addresses the mostly-but-not-entirely manufactured "masculinity crisis": if patriarchy really is going to be destroyed, and women can do everything traditionally done by men -- but better -- men are going to have to figure out what they're good for, either by learning to fit in to the new regime (as Gloria's husband and Allan manage to do), or taking it back for themselves. Ken takes the same road as the modern right -- that is, he embraces toxic, performative masculinity and invites his fellow Kens to dismantle a previously peaceful, functional state. He's inspired to do this by the real world patriarchy, and he does it because he doesn't see a place for himself in status quo Barbie land. Whether we think it's correct or not (and whether they recognize it or not), a lot of men actually feel this way about the real-world present. For whatever reason, they are failing to adapt with destructive, violent consequences around the world as we speak. I suppose the reactions of people like Ben Shapiro was entirely anticipated (and perhaps calculated) by the writers and followed in an entirely predictable fashion.
When Barbie goes into the real world and discovers that it is patriarchal, Ken becomes excited. When she discovers that Ken feels in Barbie Land (an entirely legitimate complaint -- nobody should have to feel like a disposable accessory) the way she felt under patriarchy, she has a crisis of conscience, something that never occurs to any man in the story, including Ken. Ken experiences this change through personal experience, Barbie experiences it (partially) through empathy.
I also appreciated Rhea Perlman as Ruth, but also as an alternative to the patriarchal God of Abraham. Whereas the latter tells his creations, "I made you and gave you free will so that you could love me, but you failed so I have to torture you for eternity," Ruth essentially says the opposite: "I made you and gave you free will so that I could love you. You cannot disappoint me."
I haven't really figured out how Allan and Gloria's husband fit into this though. My (female) partner felt that they had been emasculated, which would be a strange thing to do in a narrative that is supposed (according to my interpretation) to have a subtext asking for men's participation in the destruction of patriarchy. My personal reaction was that both of them were trying to meet women where they were at (e.g., by learning Spanish) and be helpful without making the story about themselves.
I don't know, there's a lot to consider in there. Maybe I'm reading (projecting?) too much into it. It was a trip.
(I haven't read the links yet. Apologies if this is covered.)
posted by klanawa at 11:24 AM on July 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
But also because there's a message in there that addresses the mostly-but-not-entirely manufactured "masculinity crisis": if patriarchy really is going to be destroyed, and women can do everything traditionally done by men -- but better -- men are going to have to figure out what they're good for, either by learning to fit in to the new regime (as Gloria's husband and Allan manage to do), or taking it back for themselves. Ken takes the same road as the modern right -- that is, he embraces toxic, performative masculinity and invites his fellow Kens to dismantle a previously peaceful, functional state. He's inspired to do this by the real world patriarchy, and he does it because he doesn't see a place for himself in status quo Barbie land. Whether we think it's correct or not (and whether they recognize it or not), a lot of men actually feel this way about the real-world present. For whatever reason, they are failing to adapt with destructive, violent consequences around the world as we speak. I suppose the reactions of people like Ben Shapiro was entirely anticipated (and perhaps calculated) by the writers and followed in an entirely predictable fashion.
When Barbie goes into the real world and discovers that it is patriarchal, Ken becomes excited. When she discovers that Ken feels in Barbie Land (an entirely legitimate complaint -- nobody should have to feel like a disposable accessory) the way she felt under patriarchy, she has a crisis of conscience, something that never occurs to any man in the story, including Ken. Ken experiences this change through personal experience, Barbie experiences it (partially) through empathy.
I also appreciated Rhea Perlman as Ruth, but also as an alternative to the patriarchal God of Abraham. Whereas the latter tells his creations, "I made you and gave you free will so that you could love me, but you failed so I have to torture you for eternity," Ruth essentially says the opposite: "I made you and gave you free will so that I could love you. You cannot disappoint me."
I haven't really figured out how Allan and Gloria's husband fit into this though. My (female) partner felt that they had been emasculated, which would be a strange thing to do in a narrative that is supposed (according to my interpretation) to have a subtext asking for men's participation in the destruction of patriarchy. My personal reaction was that both of them were trying to meet women where they were at (e.g., by learning Spanish) and be helpful without making the story about themselves.
I don't know, there's a lot to consider in there. Maybe I'm reading (projecting?) too much into it. It was a trip.
(I haven't read the links yet. Apologies if this is covered.)
posted by klanawa at 11:24 AM on July 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
I haven't really figured out how Allan and Gloria's husband fit into this though.
I think they fit in perfectly, as sidelined characters - the wife of the action star or sports star.. But then I always thought the National Lampoons Vacation movies would be better if there was another relative in the car that was really into their dog or whatever and every time the family got in some crazy adventure, that person was out walking the dog and oblivious to it all.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:57 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think they fit in perfectly, as sidelined characters - the wife of the action star or sports star.. But then I always thought the National Lampoons Vacation movies would be better if there was another relative in the car that was really into their dog or whatever and every time the family got in some crazy adventure, that person was out walking the dog and oblivious to it all.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:57 AM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
> this film had and has tons to say about and for capitalism
I guess what I meant was: this film was not critical of capitalism in a meaningful way, and was, if anything, pro-capitalism. "Feminist" barbie will earn a profit for Mattel. All is consumed by the limitless appetite of the market. And the production of Barbie, as a commodity, just doesn't exist. Cube dwelling knowledge workers exist but are not explored. Executive Assistants exist but capitalism didn't fail them, just them getting older and having to make it in the real world, vaguely, instead of pursuing their dreams or whatever, is hinted at.
I was sort of expecting an exploitation narrative, really until the point where Barbie returns and finds Barbieland turned into Kendom, where the people of barbieworld realized they were laboring to produce the Barbieness of Barbie for the benefit of Mattel shareholders or something, but that didn't really happen. I guess you can't do that when Mattel is signing off on the script or whatever.
It sort of ended up by saying, well: it's bad if only men have power, for both men and women. And then, in what felt like a non-sequitur, it wrapped up with a narrative about self-actualization (a fundamentally neoliberal idea). Stereotypical Barbie became a mortal woman, but Barbieland goes on basically the same as before (except not every night is girls night now?). I dunno, I don't think it had a very coherent message. But I'd have to see it again to really figure that out.
posted by dis_integration at 11:57 AM on July 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I guess what I meant was: this film was not critical of capitalism in a meaningful way, and was, if anything, pro-capitalism. "Feminist" barbie will earn a profit for Mattel. All is consumed by the limitless appetite of the market. And the production of Barbie, as a commodity, just doesn't exist. Cube dwelling knowledge workers exist but are not explored. Executive Assistants exist but capitalism didn't fail them, just them getting older and having to make it in the real world, vaguely, instead of pursuing their dreams or whatever, is hinted at.
I was sort of expecting an exploitation narrative, really until the point where Barbie returns and finds Barbieland turned into Kendom, where the people of barbieworld realized they were laboring to produce the Barbieness of Barbie for the benefit of Mattel shareholders or something, but that didn't really happen. I guess you can't do that when Mattel is signing off on the script or whatever.
It sort of ended up by saying, well: it's bad if only men have power, for both men and women. And then, in what felt like a non-sequitur, it wrapped up with a narrative about self-actualization (a fundamentally neoliberal idea). Stereotypical Barbie became a mortal woman, but Barbieland goes on basically the same as before (except not every night is girls night now?). I dunno, I don't think it had a very coherent message. But I'd have to see it again to really figure that out.
posted by dis_integration at 11:57 AM on July 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I guess what I meant was: this film was not critical of capitalism in a meaningful way, and was, if anything, pro-capitalism. "Feminist" barbie will earn a profit for Mattel.
To me, contradictions and juxtapositions like this, and the centering of whiteness in Barbie, the binary nature of the movie's portrayal of gender, the centering of heterosexuality, etc., are features, not bugs or failures, of the film. Barbie as a movie is an inherently compromised artistic project. There is simply no way any Barbie movie gets made that is not compromised in some way by the interests that pay for it and that control the IP. Greta Gerwig and Margot Robbie are smart enough to know that, and they took the project on anyway. On a meta level, many of us know all that, and we watched and probably enjoyed the movie anyway.
So, if we simply accept that, the movie acts as a very interesting springboard for discussion and analysis. I would argue that yes, the movie works in a more or less straightforward way, you can watch it and enjoy it and think Barbie and Ken had coherent character arcs, etc. But to me the real value of the movie is that it does in fact encourage you to think about many of the inherent contradictions it presents, even if only with easy-to-miss gags and jokes (i.e., Sasha's line about "You go, White Savior Barbie!", the suits only approving of Gloria's designs once someone says "oh yeah, that'll sell", the way Barbie straightforwardly says that she does not have a vagina but is still indisputably a woman). The movie is, I think, smart enough to know its limitations.
Maybe I'm giving it, and the audience, too much credit! But I do think it's worth remembering that the movie is not terrible or an artistic failure or an ideological crime if it doesn't address or resolve all of its contradictions and compromises. I think portraying those contradictions and compromises was part of the whole point of the movie, that it in fact knows that, just as Gloria's monologue about womanhood says, there's no way to meet all the standards and expectations placed on it.
posted by yasaman at 12:24 PM on July 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
To me, contradictions and juxtapositions like this, and the centering of whiteness in Barbie, the binary nature of the movie's portrayal of gender, the centering of heterosexuality, etc., are features, not bugs or failures, of the film. Barbie as a movie is an inherently compromised artistic project. There is simply no way any Barbie movie gets made that is not compromised in some way by the interests that pay for it and that control the IP. Greta Gerwig and Margot Robbie are smart enough to know that, and they took the project on anyway. On a meta level, many of us know all that, and we watched and probably enjoyed the movie anyway.
So, if we simply accept that, the movie acts as a very interesting springboard for discussion and analysis. I would argue that yes, the movie works in a more or less straightforward way, you can watch it and enjoy it and think Barbie and Ken had coherent character arcs, etc. But to me the real value of the movie is that it does in fact encourage you to think about many of the inherent contradictions it presents, even if only with easy-to-miss gags and jokes (i.e., Sasha's line about "You go, White Savior Barbie!", the suits only approving of Gloria's designs once someone says "oh yeah, that'll sell", the way Barbie straightforwardly says that she does not have a vagina but is still indisputably a woman). The movie is, I think, smart enough to know its limitations.
Maybe I'm giving it, and the audience, too much credit! But I do think it's worth remembering that the movie is not terrible or an artistic failure or an ideological crime if it doesn't address or resolve all of its contradictions and compromises. I think portraying those contradictions and compromises was part of the whole point of the movie, that it in fact knows that, just as Gloria's monologue about womanhood says, there's no way to meet all the standards and expectations placed on it.
posted by yasaman at 12:24 PM on July 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
From the corner of conservative reactions that I didn't expect - I know a number of very politically conservative toy/consumer good execs, who had the usual "woke" objections to the story from the beginning.
But then the other reaction that they had that made me cock my head to the side was their complaints about the Barbie execs being a room full of white men, since - as confirmed by some of the women in the group who worked at Mattel - all of the "Barbie Co" senior leadership is women.
Wanted to kinda stress to them that the movie isn't purporting to be a documentary of the running of Mattel, but that seemed to be a bit besides the point.
It was just a funny "gotcha" thing from the other side. Just can't win!
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:42 PM on July 25, 2023
But then the other reaction that they had that made me cock my head to the side was their complaints about the Barbie execs being a room full of white men, since - as confirmed by some of the women in the group who worked at Mattel - all of the "Barbie Co" senior leadership is women.
Wanted to kinda stress to them that the movie isn't purporting to be a documentary of the running of Mattel, but that seemed to be a bit besides the point.
It was just a funny "gotcha" thing from the other side. Just can't win!
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:42 PM on July 25, 2023
> the way Barbie straightforwardly says that she does not have a vagina but is still indisputably a woman
The movie is definitely full of contradictions! I thought that moment of Gender Discourse was really interesting, and from the way the right was losing their minds about the movie I expected more than the kind of patriarchy 101 we got that doesn't really go beyond, say, Mike Nichol's 1988 Working Girl. But then in the final scene, Barbie shows up to her gynecologist appointment, which I dunno how to interpret in the end (but it definitely wasn't a movie taking a stand on trans rights or saying something about gender fluidity).
posted by dis_integration at 12:46 PM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
The movie is definitely full of contradictions! I thought that moment of Gender Discourse was really interesting, and from the way the right was losing their minds about the movie I expected more than the kind of patriarchy 101 we got that doesn't really go beyond, say, Mike Nichol's 1988 Working Girl. But then in the final scene, Barbie shows up to her gynecologist appointment, which I dunno how to interpret in the end (but it definitely wasn't a movie taking a stand on trans rights or saying something about gender fluidity).
posted by dis_integration at 12:46 PM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the way to interpret that line is that she's a human woman now, no longer the toy she was earlier. It's kind of a throwaway joke, but it works in the context of the magic realism of the movie.
posted by hippybear at 12:55 PM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 12:55 PM on July 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
But then in the final scene, Barbie shows up to her gynecologist appointment, which I dunno how to interpret in the end (but it definitely wasn't a movie taking a stand on trans rights or saying something about gender fluidity).
Gerwig has said that's drawn from her own experiences, that as a teenager she remembers feeling ashamed and embarrassed of her body, so ending on a joyful and funny note of Barbie being so excited about a gynecologist was meant to be an encouragement to kids and teenagers who are approaching that milestone with fear and embarrassment. Barbie's character arc works on many levels, but at its most straightforward, it's about moving from innocence/childhood to knowledge/adulthood, and for young people with vaginas in our society, that includes prosaic things like gynecologist appointments!
I totally get feeling excluded by that scene, or feeling like it's an unnecessary reinforcement of a binary, but it made sense to me as both a joke and a depiction of an actual experience for a lot of women.
posted by yasaman at 1:04 PM on July 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
Gerwig has said that's drawn from her own experiences, that as a teenager she remembers feeling ashamed and embarrassed of her body, so ending on a joyful and funny note of Barbie being so excited about a gynecologist was meant to be an encouragement to kids and teenagers who are approaching that milestone with fear and embarrassment. Barbie's character arc works on many levels, but at its most straightforward, it's about moving from innocence/childhood to knowledge/adulthood, and for young people with vaginas in our society, that includes prosaic things like gynecologist appointments!
I totally get feeling excluded by that scene, or feeling like it's an unnecessary reinforcement of a binary, but it made sense to me as both a joke and a depiction of an actual experience for a lot of women.
posted by yasaman at 1:04 PM on July 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's kind of a throwaway joke, but it works in the context of the magic realism of the movie.
I will expand on this and say it is an echo, I don't know how intentional, of one of my WORST "favorite" end of movie jokes, which is Mr. Green at the end of the third ending of Clue. After having been accused of being homosexual for the entire run of the movie, this one version of the ending has him being an undercover agent for the FBI or something, and his final line, and of the movie is, "And now I'm going to go home and sleep with my wife."
Same kind of attitude. Barbie did it better.
posted by hippybear at 2:14 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I will expand on this and say it is an echo, I don't know how intentional, of one of my WORST "favorite" end of movie jokes, which is Mr. Green at the end of the third ending of Clue. After having been accused of being homosexual for the entire run of the movie, this one version of the ending has him being an undercover agent for the FBI or something, and his final line, and of the movie is, "And now I'm going to go home and sleep with my wife."
Same kind of attitude. Barbie did it better.
posted by hippybear at 2:14 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I saw it this weekend as part of Barbenheimer and absolutely loved it. Yes, it cannot be all things to all people, and yes, it cannot be a ruthless critique of capitalism (that would make it a different movie, and that movie already exists), but this is a very accessible, very obvious movie that appeals to many, that gives language about dualities to many people: man and woman, creation and creator, ideal and real, fantastic and human.
I also appreciated Rhea Perlman as Ruth, but also as an alternative to the patriarchal God of Abraham. Whereas the latter tells his creations, "I made you and gave you free will so that you could love me, but you failed so I have to torture you for eternity," Ruth essentially says the opposite: "I made you and gave you free will so that I could love you. You cannot disappoint me."
Ruth Handler was Jewish (as is Rhea Perlman), so it's strange to conflate "the God of Abraham" with a Christian God that assigns some creations to Hellfire. Greta Gerwig talked about how she wanted the film to feel like her experiences of Shabbat, and I do think there's a very Jewish reading of both Barbie mythos and this particular movie. Creator and creation meet and go back and forth. The world must be broken in some way so that people can grow. We're all tasked with being collaborators in creation, not just being subject to our creators. (Fascinating that both this and Oppenheimer deal with Jewish creators). The God of Avraham and the God of Barbie are much the same here.
I haven't really figured out how Allan and Gloria's husband fit into this though.
A lot of non-binary folks on the internet (and in my life) have talked about Allan being an enby representation. Not quite a Ken, not quite a Barbie, feels the oppression of Kendom (they do not want to touch another foot, thank you so much), singular, both part of and defying the gender expectations of Barbieland. Allan is determined and desperate not to be trapped by the world made by Men™.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 2:41 PM on July 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
I also appreciated Rhea Perlman as Ruth, but also as an alternative to the patriarchal God of Abraham. Whereas the latter tells his creations, "I made you and gave you free will so that you could love me, but you failed so I have to torture you for eternity," Ruth essentially says the opposite: "I made you and gave you free will so that I could love you. You cannot disappoint me."
Ruth Handler was Jewish (as is Rhea Perlman), so it's strange to conflate "the God of Abraham" with a Christian God that assigns some creations to Hellfire. Greta Gerwig talked about how she wanted the film to feel like her experiences of Shabbat, and I do think there's a very Jewish reading of both Barbie mythos and this particular movie. Creator and creation meet and go back and forth. The world must be broken in some way so that people can grow. We're all tasked with being collaborators in creation, not just being subject to our creators. (Fascinating that both this and Oppenheimer deal with Jewish creators). The God of Avraham and the God of Barbie are much the same here.
I haven't really figured out how Allan and Gloria's husband fit into this though.
A lot of non-binary folks on the internet (and in my life) have talked about Allan being an enby representation. Not quite a Ken, not quite a Barbie, feels the oppression of Kendom (they do not want to touch another foot, thank you so much), singular, both part of and defying the gender expectations of Barbieland. Allan is determined and desperate not to be trapped by the world made by Men™.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 2:41 PM on July 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
are features, not bugs or failures, of the film. Barbie as a movie is an inherently compromised artistic project
my first reaction to your comment is that bar is too low for Mattel and Gerwig in that we must accept artistic compromise and a corporate, capitalistic model of production as being intrinsic to our reality. this is much of the reason why I included a quote from Capitalist Realism. perhaps it's the fact that I'm embedded in actual organizing communities who do on the ground work that I am naively thinking that we can and must expect better but ethically, I think it's also abhorrent to internalize that assumption as just a fact of life, that the status quo must exist, is reality, and always will be and all criticism that doesn't assume this is inherently flawed
my second reaction is that to accept your argument, it would also paradoxically require us to hold general audiences to an extremely high bar in terms of their ability to analyze text. just in this thread, there's been reactions to the simple idea that you can critically analyze a movie a movie that someone liked - as if there would never exist academic theses on Barbie the Movie, that people would never look at it from a Marxist or feminist or post-colonial or whatever lens, that nobody reads theory and the public must not be exposed to analysis or else it will collapse into itself in a fit of grief and despair
sidenote - nobody does read theory but you get my point
to circle back, I very distinctly remember a moment when my ex and I watched some comedy movie about a woman trying to reconnect with her biological father - the movie was, to our English major/post-critical-theory-301 eyes, an explicitly feminist text that was almost literal in the way it analyzed the effect of patriarchy over women's identity and self-expression. one of the scenes in the movie has the main character finding her biological father, eating dinner with him, blatantly desiring of love and acceptance and in desperate search for meaning only to have him act so coldly towards her that it was uncomfortable, as part of the audience, to watch. the message here being quite obviously that patriarchal approval will never provide you with the sense of fulfillment and love, that you need to find that in yourself and which the protagonist does
we were watching this with her mother, a woman with two masters, an avowed feminist of the third wave, and her father, a ob/gyn, educated, both of them politically quite left and progressive. my ex and I talked about how feminist the text was and both her parents were adamant that they did not think there was any feminist subtext at all, that it was simply a comedy movie. we cited scenes that realized specific criticisms from feminist theory and they were both like, no, that's a coincidence, don't read into it too much
they were not, afaik, the type to troll the hell out of us - in fact, they were always earnest to an extent that I, in my social anxiety, found incredibly uncomfortable. so the question is - why is the bar so low for corporations? and why so high for audiences? can we not expect better? is there no point in envisioning a better reality as a first principle and to then proceed?
posted by paimapi at 3:00 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
my first reaction to your comment is that bar is too low for Mattel and Gerwig in that we must accept artistic compromise and a corporate, capitalistic model of production as being intrinsic to our reality. this is much of the reason why I included a quote from Capitalist Realism. perhaps it's the fact that I'm embedded in actual organizing communities who do on the ground work that I am naively thinking that we can and must expect better but ethically, I think it's also abhorrent to internalize that assumption as just a fact of life, that the status quo must exist, is reality, and always will be and all criticism that doesn't assume this is inherently flawed
my second reaction is that to accept your argument, it would also paradoxically require us to hold general audiences to an extremely high bar in terms of their ability to analyze text. just in this thread, there's been reactions to the simple idea that you can critically analyze a movie a movie that someone liked - as if there would never exist academic theses on Barbie the Movie, that people would never look at it from a Marxist or feminist or post-colonial or whatever lens, that nobody reads theory and the public must not be exposed to analysis or else it will collapse into itself in a fit of grief and despair
sidenote - nobody does read theory but you get my point
to circle back, I very distinctly remember a moment when my ex and I watched some comedy movie about a woman trying to reconnect with her biological father - the movie was, to our English major/post-critical-theory-301 eyes, an explicitly feminist text that was almost literal in the way it analyzed the effect of patriarchy over women's identity and self-expression. one of the scenes in the movie has the main character finding her biological father, eating dinner with him, blatantly desiring of love and acceptance and in desperate search for meaning only to have him act so coldly towards her that it was uncomfortable, as part of the audience, to watch. the message here being quite obviously that patriarchal approval will never provide you with the sense of fulfillment and love, that you need to find that in yourself and which the protagonist does
we were watching this with her mother, a woman with two masters, an avowed feminist of the third wave, and her father, a ob/gyn, educated, both of them politically quite left and progressive. my ex and I talked about how feminist the text was and both her parents were adamant that they did not think there was any feminist subtext at all, that it was simply a comedy movie. we cited scenes that realized specific criticisms from feminist theory and they were both like, no, that's a coincidence, don't read into it too much
they were not, afaik, the type to troll the hell out of us - in fact, they were always earnest to an extent that I, in my social anxiety, found incredibly uncomfortable. so the question is - why is the bar so low for corporations? and why so high for audiences? can we not expect better? is there no point in envisioning a better reality as a first principle and to then proceed?
posted by paimapi at 3:00 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I remember years ago listening to a guy who worked at an Amazon warehouse talk about how the worst thing about it was, no matter how well you did, they'd (mainly management, I think, but from the way he talked also some co-workers) would still stop by to tell you how you weren't doing good enough. It was emotionally exhausting enough that he said it was the fundamental reason he quit.
I'm sure that whoever set up that particular feature thought it was a great way to motivate people to continually improve. I think they were wrong, and I think that attempts to use the same strategy in other areas probably also results in a certain amount of emotional exhaustion and opting out. Where the balance of healthy criticism tips over into pathology, where the gain outways the wastage, I don't know, but when I see the sheer ammunition expended on something like this I do feel like "pick your battles" is a phrase that could be used more often in these discussions.
posted by AdamCSnider at 4:23 PM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm sure that whoever set up that particular feature thought it was a great way to motivate people to continually improve. I think they were wrong, and I think that attempts to use the same strategy in other areas probably also results in a certain amount of emotional exhaustion and opting out. Where the balance of healthy criticism tips over into pathology, where the gain outways the wastage, I don't know, but when I see the sheer ammunition expended on something like this I do feel like "pick your battles" is a phrase that could be used more often in these discussions.
posted by AdamCSnider at 4:23 PM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've always thought that the question, "is he a good president?" was incoherent because to be good and to be president of a colonial, capitalist empire is a contradiction.
I feel the same way about artists who make art for commercial theatrical distribution. As brilliant and as good as they may be, they are compromised by the medium. I assume that, unlike some presidents, all of them know it but they do their own moral calculus.
posted by klanawa at 4:25 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel the same way about artists who make art for commercial theatrical distribution. As brilliant and as good as they may be, they are compromised by the medium. I assume that, unlike some presidents, all of them know it but they do their own moral calculus.
posted by klanawa at 4:25 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which creators do we see that don't use "commercial theatrical distribution"? How many movies does one see outside that system? It's strange to critique Barbie about that and not, say, Beau is Afraid (a great movie that came out this year).
posted by Lord Chancellor at 4:32 PM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Lord Chancellor at 4:32 PM on July 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
If you never seek art outside of commercial venues then you wouldn't see any. That's your prerogative.
But I wasn't critiquing this movie on that basis. The medium is part of the message, remember? The critique is implicit.
posted by klanawa at 4:36 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
But I wasn't critiquing this movie on that basis. The medium is part of the message, remember? The critique is implicit.
posted by klanawa at 4:36 PM on July 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you never seek art outside of commercial venues then you wouldn't see any.
Mural artists and public art works commissioners and even graffiti painters all suddenly disappear from the world after you speak these words.
Just even most basically, Statue Of Liberty and The Bean.
There is so much more beyond this.
I'm not sure what world you live in, but there is SO MUCH ART that is encountered daily by millions on a non-commercial basis... It's great when you think about it.
posted by hippybear at 4:51 PM on July 25, 2023
Mural artists and public art works commissioners and even graffiti painters all suddenly disappear from the world after you speak these words.
Just even most basically, Statue Of Liberty and The Bean.
There is so much more beyond this.
I'm not sure what world you live in, but there is SO MUCH ART that is encountered daily by millions on a non-commercial basis... It's great when you think about it.
posted by hippybear at 4:51 PM on July 25, 2023
I do feel like "pick your battles" is a phrase that could be used more often in these discussions
Unless something very strange happens, this movie is going to be seen by more people than any other this year. It draws on IP familiar to generations of people. It was made by a noted feminist director. If there's any pop culture movie that deserves close scrutiny, it's a phenomenon like Barbie.
The standard being proposed here to measure it against essentially requires a rejection of all commercially-distributed art. For some, that is the only acceptable choice. For me, and frankly for the vast majority of people, it is not. It doesn't make sense to me to refer to a state of affairs that has literally never existed as "a better reality," rather than a dream, an ideal to strive towards in a fallen world. But you can't say it's wrong to want a film like Barbie to be better and to think that it does matter that it isn't.
In fact, I find it dispiriting to discover that it's still even necessary in this forum to defend having the conversation about why it's not, and why it does. I don't even mean that in a political way, I just find it hard to believe that we are still grappling with such a primitive pleasure/critique dichotomy.
posted by praemunire at 5:41 PM on July 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unless something very strange happens, this movie is going to be seen by more people than any other this year. It draws on IP familiar to generations of people. It was made by a noted feminist director. If there's any pop culture movie that deserves close scrutiny, it's a phenomenon like Barbie.
The standard being proposed here to measure it against essentially requires a rejection of all commercially-distributed art. For some, that is the only acceptable choice. For me, and frankly for the vast majority of people, it is not. It doesn't make sense to me to refer to a state of affairs that has literally never existed as "a better reality," rather than a dream, an ideal to strive towards in a fallen world. But you can't say it's wrong to want a film like Barbie to be better and to think that it does matter that it isn't.
In fact, I find it dispiriting to discover that it's still even necessary in this forum to defend having the conversation about why it's not, and why it does. I don't even mean that in a political way, I just find it hard to believe that we are still grappling with such a primitive pleasure/critique dichotomy.
posted by praemunire at 5:41 PM on July 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
As it happens, I’ve been reading The World Without Us, and specifically it’s chapter on polymers in the week Gerwig’s Barbie came out. I think the notion that every plastic toy we enjoyed as kids: those which were cherished and somehow mislaid, the ones we lost interest in, the ones that came free with breakfast cereal, the ones we destroyed: all of them (save a few which were incinerated) are essentially still here with us: in landfill or drifting round an ocean gyre. They might not be whole any more- have maybe broken down into smaller pieces and been snacked on by fish. What’s more, they will continue to be around for several thousand more years, really until geologic action finally renders them into something else.
posted by rongorongo at 5:06 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 5:06 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Alan seemed unhappy from the get-go. Barbieland expressly sidelined men, and Kendom expressly sidelined everyone that wasn't a Macho Macho Man. He didn't appear to be looking for love - he just wanted to be someplace where he fit in. If you're not a Barbie or Ken in that world, you are pretty much nothing. It's kind of bleak.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:39 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:39 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
This account of attending the non Mattel affiliated BarbieCon might interest people. Multiple attendees who were christened Barbie or Ken - tales of 1970s Barbie’s made with sludge, lots of love for the brand, a tradition of making gifts for other delegates and an eye out for the special conference edition dolls which can allow the ticket price to be recouped.
posted by rongorongo at 6:47 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rongorongo at 6:47 AM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you're not a Barbie or Ken in that world, you are pretty much nothing. It's kind of bleak.
True but apparently Allan was every member of NSync, so that's something.
posted by hippybear at 8:42 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
True but apparently Allan was every member of NSync, so that's something.
posted by hippybear at 8:42 AM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
The standard being proposed here to measure it against essentially requires a rejection of all commercially-distributed art.
for what it's worth, I think it's possible to 1) not have to reject commercially-distributed art while also 2) critiquing it relentlessly. for me, at least, it's about making sure that all of those little truisms and heuristics that I picked up in my youth that led me to have anti-social, dispiriting, and ultimately unethical beliefs and assumptions aren't somehow worming their way into my brain when I consume the media that I do
when I spend 1000 hours playing a single Civ 6 campaign, am I reminding myself that this is absolutely not-at-all close to resembling how anybody thought about history or people or anything, really? great men, dictating policies from on high, changing history, micro-managing every city - this is not how history ever worked and even if all of those old, curmudgeonly IR and economics men say that this is how it worked, that we should reify types like Kissinger, I'm going to go 'nah fuck that, I'll piss on that grave the first chance I get' (as a probably extreme example lol)
posted by paimapi at 10:24 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
for what it's worth, I think it's possible to 1) not have to reject commercially-distributed art while also 2) critiquing it relentlessly. for me, at least, it's about making sure that all of those little truisms and heuristics that I picked up in my youth that led me to have anti-social, dispiriting, and ultimately unethical beliefs and assumptions aren't somehow worming their way into my brain when I consume the media that I do
when I spend 1000 hours playing a single Civ 6 campaign, am I reminding myself that this is absolutely not-at-all close to resembling how anybody thought about history or people or anything, really? great men, dictating policies from on high, changing history, micro-managing every city - this is not how history ever worked and even if all of those old, curmudgeonly IR and economics men say that this is how it worked, that we should reify types like Kissinger, I'm going to go 'nah fuck that, I'll piss on that grave the first chance I get' (as a probably extreme example lol)
posted by paimapi at 10:24 AM on July 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Alan seemed unhappy from the get-go. Barbieland expressly sidelined men, and Kendom expressly sidelined everyone that wasn't a Macho Macho Man.
The Alan character was by far the worst in the movie. He solved issues with at least as much violence as Ken (beating the construction workers), so he was a Macho Macho Man. If he's going to be tagged as a 'Ken's best friend', when Ken is really best friends with the other Kens, what even was his point? A rouge Ken (or just leave him completely out) would have made more sense.
But then in the final scene, Barbie shows up to her gynecologist appointment, which I dunno how to interpret in the end
I have never heard any woman say anything positive about a gynecological exam (though I assume some do), so I thought it was pretty funny. Like Barbie had just touched the tip of the iceberg on woman's issues, and was about to slide down the side.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:05 AM on July 26, 2023
The Alan character was by far the worst in the movie. He solved issues with at least as much violence as Ken (beating the construction workers), so he was a Macho Macho Man. If he's going to be tagged as a 'Ken's best friend', when Ken is really best friends with the other Kens, what even was his point? A rouge Ken (or just leave him completely out) would have made more sense.
But then in the final scene, Barbie shows up to her gynecologist appointment, which I dunno how to interpret in the end
I have never heard any woman say anything positive about a gynecological exam (though I assume some do), so I thought it was pretty funny. Like Barbie had just touched the tip of the iceberg on woman's issues, and was about to slide down the side.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:05 AM on July 26, 2023
he was a Macho Macho Man
This guy?
He solved issues with at least as much violence as Ken
He didn't solve the problem, though! His violence was utterly superfluous! And then Barbie took him right back to Barbieland!
Allan exists, among other reasons such as being funny as hell, to signal that patriarchy doesn't even work for all men. Only Kens.
posted by praemunire at 11:22 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
This guy?
He solved issues with at least as much violence as Ken
He didn't solve the problem, though! His violence was utterly superfluous! And then Barbie took him right back to Barbieland!
Allan exists, among other reasons such as being funny as hell, to signal that patriarchy doesn't even work for all men. Only Kens.
posted by praemunire at 11:22 AM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
He didn't solve the problem, though! His violence was utterly superfluous!
Isn't that even worse?
Allan exists, among other reasons such as being funny as hell, to signal that patriarchy doesn't even work for all men. Only Kens.
Alan's story was far too limited to know that. If he could take on 6 construction Kens by himself, could he beat his way to ruling the patriarchy? It's a fair question, when the other Kens couldn't defeat themselves in the melee battle.
Also Alan was unhappy in the Barbiearchy too. So that didn't work for him either.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:30 AM on July 26, 2023
Isn't that even worse?
Allan exists, among other reasons such as being funny as hell, to signal that patriarchy doesn't even work for all men. Only Kens.
Alan's story was far too limited to know that. If he could take on 6 construction Kens by himself, could he beat his way to ruling the patriarchy? It's a fair question, when the other Kens couldn't defeat themselves in the melee battle.
Also Alan was unhappy in the Barbiearchy too. So that didn't work for him either.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:30 AM on July 26, 2023
Allan's violence was deployed in service of escaping Barbieland, an act of agency and not petty jealousy, like the Kenfight. Could he have tried to talk the construction workers into letting him through? Yes. He is flawed! But it also was a skilled deployment of violence, vs the Kens' ludicrous slap-and-suction-arrow-fest. So in that way he subverted the trope of the Macho Macho Man, because he didn't look Macho at all but had the skills that one equates with Macho Macho Men.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:08 PM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:08 PM on July 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Violence is not just a "macho macho men" trait but something entwinned with being human (or a doll, I suppose). Men, women, and other use violence for both good and bad reasons, and although there's something of specific violence acts that are accultured into identities (macho macho men style), all identities create specific sets of acceptable violence. For Allan, it's the violence to escape being trapped by those that surround you. He's not very good at it and it's more a sign of his desperation, but hey, that's a mode, and it has nothing to do with him being a man (I still stick to the enby reading of Allan though).
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:13 PM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:13 PM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
For Allan, it's the violence to escape being trapped by those that surround you.
Not sure I buy that - he didn't use violence against the executives nor against Barbie, who he presumably needed to find the way out. So he wound up trapped in a world he was unhappy with in both it's forms. But it's not a hill I'm willing to die on, so I'm just going to say I yeah I agree his role was funny, but not well thought out.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:50 PM on July 26, 2023
Not sure I buy that - he didn't use violence against the executives nor against Barbie, who he presumably needed to find the way out. So he wound up trapped in a world he was unhappy with in both it's forms. But it's not a hill I'm willing to die on, so I'm just going to say I yeah I agree his role was funny, but not well thought out.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:50 PM on July 26, 2023
Just like the introduction of Allan into the Mattel doll line itself!
posted by hippybear at 1:02 PM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:02 PM on July 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
The inevitable has occurred: AITA for breaking up with my boyfriend over the Barbie movie
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:18 PM on July 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:18 PM on July 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have never heard any woman say anything positive about a gynecological exam (though I assume some do), so I thought it was pretty funny. Like Barbie had just touched the tip of the iceberg on woman's issues, and was about to slide down the side.
I have been incredibly lucky that I havent had a gynecologist I didnt like (and just picking randomly from my insurance's list) so anyone that wants a recommendation for one in Dallas or Atlanta, send me a PM.
posted by LizBoBiz at 4:41 PM on July 26, 2023
I have been incredibly lucky that I havent had a gynecologist I didnt like (and just picking randomly from my insurance's list) so anyone that wants a recommendation for one in Dallas or Atlanta, send me a PM.
posted by LizBoBiz at 4:41 PM on July 26, 2023
Alan was unhappy in the Barbiearchy too
Not sure about that, except that he gets stressed out when the Kens threaten to beach each other off...
posted by praemunire at 9:25 PM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not sure about that, except that he gets stressed out when the Kens threaten to beach each other off...
posted by praemunire at 9:25 PM on July 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
to be clear i thought the ending showing up at the obgyn was funny but what i mean is what does it mean for a barbie’s gender. are barbies biological females in doll form or are they genital free plastic expressions of gender norms, something not biological but socially constructed. i just mean that giving her genitalia undermines an earlier possible narrative about separation of gender and biology. i was not confused by the scene in general
posted by dis_integration at 5:42 AM on July 27, 2023
posted by dis_integration at 5:42 AM on July 27, 2023
When Barbie is a doll, she has no genitalia (just like a real doll, but not a Real Doll™) and no sex. She has a gender—woman—because she is entirely a social construct.
However, later on, Barbie chooses to become a real flesh-and-blood person, to no longer be a social construct. At that moment, she gains genitalia, I suppose. She now has sex and gender.
Anyway, that was what I thought the most probable read of the movie.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 7:15 AM on July 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
However, later on, Barbie chooses to become a real flesh-and-blood person, to no longer be a social construct. At that moment, she gains genitalia, I suppose. She now has sex and gender.
Anyway, that was what I thought the most probable read of the movie.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 7:15 AM on July 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
When Thomas the Tank Engine visits an obgyn is when people will really freak out.
posted by clawsoon at 10:42 AM on July 27, 2023
posted by clawsoon at 10:42 AM on July 27, 2023
Thomas The Tank Engine could get surprisingly dark at time. I think there's one episode they just don't show anymore.
posted by hippybear at 11:06 AM on July 27, 2023
posted by hippybear at 11:06 AM on July 27, 2023
Thomas The Tank Engine could get surprisingly dark at time. I think there's one episode they just don't show anymore.
There's one episode where they bricked a train into a tunnel for disobeying orders.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:55 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's one episode where they bricked a train into a tunnel for disobeying orders.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:55 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's one episode where they bricked a train into a tunnel for disobeying orders.
That's the second-darkest episode, since Henry got out of that tunnel in the next episode.
The later versions became much more understanding; instead of bricking Henry in for his anxieties, they'd remind Henry that it was okay to be a special engine who required special coal.
I don't think they ever made it as far as exploring gender dynamics, though, beyond the Indian engine who pointed out that it was possible to be a pretty girl and also useful. It would be great to see the engines realize that they're as sexless as Barbie and Ken while being as gendered as Barbie and Ken.
posted by clawsoon at 10:08 AM on July 28, 2023
That's the second-darkest episode, since Henry got out of that tunnel in the next episode.
The later versions became much more understanding; instead of bricking Henry in for his anxieties, they'd remind Henry that it was okay to be a special engine who required special coal.
I don't think they ever made it as far as exploring gender dynamics, though, beyond the Indian engine who pointed out that it was possible to be a pretty girl and also useful. It would be great to see the engines realize that they're as sexless as Barbie and Ken while being as gendered as Barbie and Ken.
posted by clawsoon at 10:08 AM on July 28, 2023
It would be great to see the engines realize that they're as sexless as Barbie and Ken
They couldn't have been fully sexless, because they referenced the pregnant Barbie. How'd that happen? Per this, the answer is Allen.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:37 PM on July 28, 2023
They couldn't have been fully sexless, because they referenced the pregnant Barbie. How'd that happen? Per this, the answer is Allen.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:37 PM on July 28, 2023
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If anything, Mattel's marketing department has their SEO groundgame down pat
posted by paimapi at 4:11 PM on July 24, 2023 [17 favorites]