Microplastics, nanoplastics, and leachates, oh my
July 31, 2023 6:10 PM Subscribe
“The human health effects of plastic exposure are unclear.”
I’m no fan of petroleum or plastics, but I’ve yet to hear about anything actually detrimental in terms of health effects. Is there anything real here or is it scaremongering turtles all the way down?
posted by heyitsgogi at 6:18 PM on July 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
I’m no fan of petroleum or plastics, but I’ve yet to hear about anything actually detrimental in terms of health effects. Is there anything real here or is it scaremongering turtles all the way down?
posted by heyitsgogi at 6:18 PM on July 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
As a start...
Once they’ve snuck past the body’s defense systems, “the chemicals used in plastics hack hormones,” says Leonardo Trasand, a professor at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine and the director of the Center for the Investigation of Environmental Hazards. Hormones are signaling molecules underlying basically everything the body does, so these chemicals, called endocrine disruptors, have the potential to mess with everything from metabolism to sexual development and fertility.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:19 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Once they’ve snuck past the body’s defense systems, “the chemicals used in plastics hack hormones,” says Leonardo Trasand, a professor at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine and the director of the Center for the Investigation of Environmental Hazards. Hormones are signaling molecules underlying basically everything the body does, so these chemicals, called endocrine disruptors, have the potential to mess with everything from metabolism to sexual development and fertility.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:19 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
“Whilst definitive evidence linking microplastic consumption to human health is currently lacking, results from correlative studies in people exposed to high concentrations of microplastics, model animal and cell culture experiments, suggest that effects of microplastics could include provoking immune and stress responses and inducing reproductive and developmental toxicity.” — from the NIH metastudy linked in the article.
Again, lots of couching and words like “could” and “lacking” and “suggest” — I’d like to see what evidence actually shows.
posted by heyitsgogi at 6:21 PM on July 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
Again, lots of couching and words like “could” and “lacking” and “suggest” — I’d like to see what evidence actually shows.
posted by heyitsgogi at 6:21 PM on July 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
Meh - I'm nearly 63. any damage has already been done and it's too late for me to care. Still, it might be worthwhile for younger folks to be cautious, at least...
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:26 PM on July 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:26 PM on July 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
20+ years ago, before this was on anyone's mind, one of my professors told us to stop microwaving plastics or heating them in any way (including putting hot food in them). Apparently he had a student whose experiments to do with diabetes had suddenly gone haywire - and it turned out that it was because of a switch from glass test tubes to plastic test tubes. The plastic test tubes messed up the samples when heated. The student found a source for glass test tubes, switched back, and the samples no longer went haywire. (This is probably a bit garbled because it was 20+ years ago.) Some people thought he was off base but he had been right about so many other things that I trusted him and have avoided microwaving plastic ever since.
He also said that in 25 years the world would be fighting wars over clean water sources. Set your watches for 2026 or thereabouts.
posted by rednikki at 6:28 PM on July 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
He also said that in 25 years the world would be fighting wars over clean water sources. Set your watches for 2026 or thereabouts.
posted by rednikki at 6:28 PM on July 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
Oh this part freaked me, but the whole thing, really.
To test what these plastics do to our bodies once they’re consumed, the team bathed human embryonic kidney cells in the plastic roughage shed by the baby-food containers. (The team chose this kind of cell because kidneys have so much contact with ingested plastic.) After two days of exposure to concentrated microplastics and nanoplastics, about 75 percent of the kidney cells died—over three times as many as cells that spent two days in a much more diluted solution.
Seems like plenty of cause for concern, for me. And further study, like all things. I know I'm never microwaving plastic again if I can avoid it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:28 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
To test what these plastics do to our bodies once they’re consumed, the team bathed human embryonic kidney cells in the plastic roughage shed by the baby-food containers. (The team chose this kind of cell because kidneys have so much contact with ingested plastic.) After two days of exposure to concentrated microplastics and nanoplastics, about 75 percent of the kidney cells died—over three times as many as cells that spent two days in a much more diluted solution.
Seems like plenty of cause for concern, for me. And further study, like all things. I know I'm never microwaving plastic again if I can avoid it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:28 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
We've entirely polluted our ecosystem and bodies to the point that it is truly shocking if you sit down and look at each individual piece and then put them all together into a giant Polluted Body Status.
I admit I don't think much about what I'm microwaving in, although growing up in an area were red chile was a popular food ingredient and ending up with some permanently red plastic containers many decades ago, I think I likely don't microwave in plastic too often anymore. I'm sitting here thinking about it and really, I cannot say.
But really, don't look too closely into the "you have things in your body you probably don't want to have there" stream because it is vast and unpleasant and sometimes surprising.
posted by hippybear at 6:28 PM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
I admit I don't think much about what I'm microwaving in, although growing up in an area were red chile was a popular food ingredient and ending up with some permanently red plastic containers many decades ago, I think I likely don't microwave in plastic too often anymore. I'm sitting here thinking about it and really, I cannot say.
But really, don't look too closely into the "you have things in your body you probably don't want to have there" stream because it is vast and unpleasant and sometimes surprising.
posted by hippybear at 6:28 PM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
He also said that in 25 years the world would be fighting wars over clean water sources. Set your watches for 2026 or thereabouts.
You should look at the Colorado River water rights struggles going on right now.
posted by hippybear at 6:30 PM on July 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
You should look at the Colorado River water rights struggles going on right now.
posted by hippybear at 6:30 PM on July 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
Numerous animal studies have shown that exposure to nano- and microplastics leads to impairments in oxidative and inflammatory intestinal balance, and disruption of the gut's epithelial permeability. Other notable effects of nano- and microplastic exposure include dysbiosis (changes in the gut microbiota) and immune cell toxicity.I don't have time right now to dig more deeply into the research than that, but this is an area where it's going to be really hard to find hard evidence when it comes to human beings. Can you find one group of people who've been exposed to microwaved plastics, and another group of people who haven't been exposed to microwaved plastics, and compare health effects 20 or 30 years down the line? Well, maybe, but chances are, those groups are going to differ so much on other factors that they're hard to compare. (My guess is that if your exposure to microwaved plastics is very low, either you're from a relatively underdeveloped part of the world, or you're a hippie-crunchy-all-natural type.)
- Hirt, N., & Body-Malapel, M. (2020). Immunotoxicity and intestinal effects of nano- and microplastics: a review of the literature. Particle and fibre toxicology, 17(1), 57.
Will try to dig into the research more deeply tomorrow, but for now, I'm kind of leaning towards replacing my plastic food containers with glass (even though glass is so heavy!)
posted by Jeanne at 6:36 PM on July 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
It does bug me a little that suddenly the whole subject of toxic additives and endocrine disrupters in synthetic materials - inclusive of a whole range of concerns that have been studied for years - seems to have been subsumed in the popular press to “microplastics,” which are actually one of most recently discovered and least understood facets, because, I assume, it sounds particularly new and freaky?
I also wonder how many of the possible malign effects of microplastic particulates are actually specific to synthetic plastics? Haven’t we also been learning ever more about how bad, say, soot particulates are? Have we checked how many other household things might be generating harmful particulates?
I don’t microwave things in plastic, though, because I think there have been reasons to believe that might not be a great idea for a long time now.
posted by atoxyl at 6:42 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I also wonder how many of the possible malign effects of microplastic particulates are actually specific to synthetic plastics? Haven’t we also been learning ever more about how bad, say, soot particulates are? Have we checked how many other household things might be generating harmful particulates?
I don’t microwave things in plastic, though, because I think there have been reasons to believe that might not be a great idea for a long time now.
posted by atoxyl at 6:42 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Microwaving delivers a triple whammy: heat, UV irradiation, and hydrolysis"
In the super-modified microwave at Wired headquarters?
posted by She Vaped An Entire Sock! at 6:50 PM on July 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
In the super-modified microwave at Wired headquarters?
posted by She Vaped An Entire Sock! at 6:50 PM on July 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
A link within the main one is pretty interesting:
Ecology of the plastisphere
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:50 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ecology of the plastisphere
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:50 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is the issue plastic food containers in general, or is it microwaving in plastic?
I bought this amazing set of collapsable plastic bowls and lids from Tupperware nearly 20 years ago. They fold flat to go in the dishwasher, but they keep all their surfaces exposed so they get washed. If you don't have that much leftover, you don't have to unfold the bowl all the way...
I digress.
I think you can keep food in plastic for storage. But don't heat up the plastic.
I'm probably wrong about this.
Remember when there were facial scrubs a while back that advertised they had microplastic beads to help scrub away your dead skin?
We've never been very good at any of this "here's a new thing maybe be careful with it before you use it everywhere" thing.
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on July 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I bought this amazing set of collapsable plastic bowls and lids from Tupperware nearly 20 years ago. They fold flat to go in the dishwasher, but they keep all their surfaces exposed so they get washed. If you don't have that much leftover, you don't have to unfold the bowl all the way...
I digress.
I think you can keep food in plastic for storage. But don't heat up the plastic.
I'm probably wrong about this.
Remember when there were facial scrubs a while back that advertised they had microplastic beads to help scrub away your dead skin?
We've never been very good at any of this "here's a new thing maybe be careful with it before you use it everywhere" thing.
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on July 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think you can keep food in plastic for storage. But don't heat up the plastic.
Some particles will likely be released (and some chemicals leached) into food stored at any temperature, but it’s much worse at high temperatures.
posted by atoxyl at 6:53 PM on July 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some particles will likely be released (and some chemicals leached) into food stored at any temperature, but it’s much worse at high temperatures.
posted by atoxyl at 6:53 PM on July 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
OMG are microplastic facial scrub beads a product of the glitter factories? Inquiring minds want to know.
posted by hippybear at 6:56 PM on July 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:56 PM on July 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
People actually microwave plastic containers? Strong no for me there.
OK, I have been having a nostalgia craze for TV dinners, and they have plastic wrap on the top of them, but otherwise? Nope. My kidney's have enough problems!
posted by Windopaene at 7:21 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
OK, I have been having a nostalgia craze for TV dinners, and they have plastic wrap on the top of them, but otherwise? Nope. My kidney's have enough problems!
posted by Windopaene at 7:21 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm nearly 63. any damage has already been done and it's too late for me to care.
Well, I personally intend to make sure my health for the remaining years of my life don't get MORE damaged. Wouldn't you say that you owe it to yourself to at least try?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:23 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, I personally intend to make sure my health for the remaining years of my life don't get MORE damaged. Wouldn't you say that you owe it to yourself to at least try?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:23 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ooh, nice, those microwaveable cardboard trays that your frozen dinners come in? They're not recyclable, as paper or compost, because they are lined with a thin plastic film...
Just the same as the Tim Horton's, Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks paper coffee cups that you pop into the microwave at work to warm up... Also lined with a thin plastic film.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:38 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just the same as the Tim Horton's, Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks paper coffee cups that you pop into the microwave at work to warm up... Also lined with a thin plastic film.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:38 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
People actually microwave plastic containers? Strong no for me there.
Lots and lots of people only have plastic containers.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:39 PM on July 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
Lots and lots of people only have plastic containers.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:39 PM on July 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
Indeed. A large part of the link talks about baby bottles.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:48 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:48 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't you say that you owe it to yourself to at least try?
I was going to give an honest answer but decided that it would be a derail.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:49 PM on July 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
I was going to give an honest answer but decided that it would be a derail.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:49 PM on July 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
Ok well I didn't want a fight about how positive we need to be about plastic
Why can't we be concerned about something any more without being accused of fear mongering or being hysterical? It hits extra when it's men saying it to women.
I literally do not understand this dynamic but it makes me want to post fuck all
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:05 PM on July 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Why can't we be concerned about something any more without being accused of fear mongering or being hysterical? It hits extra when it's men saying it to women.
I literally do not understand this dynamic but it makes me want to post fuck all
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:05 PM on July 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Folks, sets of glass storage containers from both Pyrex and Anchor Hocking are widely available and are fairly inexpensive.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:13 PM on July 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:13 PM on July 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Call it panic if you will but my own household has been (mostly) off plastic for the past 15 years or so now. Food is stored in glass containers (yes its heavy, yes it takes up most of a lower cabinet stacked, yes I'm forever missing the odd lid, which is made of some kind of composite material which is why I said (mostly) above). No plastic in the microwave just because I could see it was ruining/changing the plastic containers forever in some cases which made me wonder about interactions with foods during this process.
It kind of seems like we're going to be inundated with MORE plastic in our environment in the future, not less, so avoiding unnecessary exposure to ADDITIONAL plastic in your lifestyle seems like a good idea to me.
posted by some loser at 8:13 PM on July 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
It kind of seems like we're going to be inundated with MORE plastic in our environment in the future, not less, so avoiding unnecessary exposure to ADDITIONAL plastic in your lifestyle seems like a good idea to me.
posted by some loser at 8:13 PM on July 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wired was never a particularly scientifically inclined website, it started out as a libertarian techbro site in the 90s, and rode that wave until the dot-com crash, then turned into something with a much less distinguishable voice, for good or bad.
And yeah, microplastics are not leaching is not endocrine disruptors, etc. Probably don't microwave plastic? And probably don't panic about a lot of "might be linked to", "could potentially cause", etc. We have a shitload of real problems, this isn't at least proven to be one of them. If it was really, really serious, we'd probably see the effects of it by now, although it might be something more subtle, of course.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:13 PM on July 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
And yeah, microplastics are not leaching is not endocrine disruptors, etc. Probably don't microwave plastic? And probably don't panic about a lot of "might be linked to", "could potentially cause", etc. We have a shitload of real problems, this isn't at least proven to be one of them. If it was really, really serious, we'd probably see the effects of it by now, although it might be something more subtle, of course.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:13 PM on July 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
I have an Episode 1, I mean first issue of WIRED someplace in this house. It might be worth something someday.
posted by hippybear at 8:18 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 8:18 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s definitely not a derail to discuss the harms (or lack thereof) of microwaving plastic. It’s the literal topic of the thread.
posted by crazy with stars at 8:36 PM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by crazy with stars at 8:36 PM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
If it was really, really serious, we'd probably see the effects of it by now, although it might be something more subtle, of course
We probably have and it probably is.
"might be linked to", "could potentially cause", etc.
that’s the only responsible way to write about early scientific findings, though, and tends to remain the style even when things are starting to become more clear
posted by atoxyl at 8:44 PM on July 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
We probably have and it probably is.
"might be linked to", "could potentially cause", etc.
that’s the only responsible way to write about early scientific findings, though, and tends to remain the style even when things are starting to become more clear
posted by atoxyl at 8:44 PM on July 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
tiny frying pan, thank you for posting. Microwaved plastic is concerning, but I wish the experiment hadn't led with (emptied) baby-food containers? Baby food isn't supposed to be microwaved in its store packaging in the first place; doing so can cause hot spots in the contents and risks burning the baby's mouth. The American Academy of Pediatrics' report in 2018 warned against microwaving food in plastic containers in general; it also found running re-usable plastic containers through the dishwasher risky. The American Chemistry Council was not pleased. (The American Plastics Council merged with ACC in 2002).
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:52 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:52 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
It only seems like yesterday we were being warned about using aluminium cookware. I wasn't at all surprised to read about plastics leaching into food having (like others) observed the change to plastics when microwaved and, in some cases, if you put plastic containers in a dishwasher. I do avoid doing either in general, although maybe I should be more rigorous about it.
It makes me wonder what else we are using to store and/or cook our food that may be leaching harmful elements into the food? I've always though of materials such as glass and stainless steel to be entirely safe, but not so sure about stainless steel any more.
posted by dg at 8:59 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
It makes me wonder what else we are using to store and/or cook our food that may be leaching harmful elements into the food? I've always though of materials such as glass and stainless steel to be entirely safe, but not so sure about stainless steel any more.
posted by dg at 8:59 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: There are a lot of users contributing to the derails in this thread by arguing. Please flag and move on. Lets take a break from commenting any further if you’ve taken up plenty of space so far.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:03 PM on July 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:03 PM on July 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
We store food in plastic, but we don't microwave in plastic or takeout containers. Mainly because any fats or oils in the food can get hot enough to melt or at least stain or scar the plastic. So we're accidentally doing the healthier thing there too, I guess.
There is (or was) cookware of melamine or similar which were expressly made for microwaving. I wonder if those have been similarly examined. We do use those a fair bit.
I can't say that WIRED is my go-to for important health science stories, but the popular press can be a starting point in raising awareness, if the reporting is diligent.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:07 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is (or was) cookware of melamine or similar which were expressly made for microwaving. I wonder if those have been similarly examined. We do use those a fair bit.
I can't say that WIRED is my go-to for important health science stories, but the popular press can be a starting point in raising awareness, if the reporting is diligent.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:07 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I love those frozen bags of brown rice you can steam in the microwave is that allowed. Because I eat those at least once a week and haven't grown a third ear or anything
posted by windbox at 9:08 PM on July 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by windbox at 9:08 PM on July 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
If it was really, really serious, we'd probably see the effects of it by now...
Now that you mention it...in recent years, fully a quarter of Americans have apparently gone insane.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 9:34 PM on July 31, 2023 [27 favorites]
Now that you mention it...in recent years, fully a quarter of Americans have apparently gone insane.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 9:34 PM on July 31, 2023 [27 favorites]
Hard disagree that glass containers are easily affordable or convenient compared to plastic. We needed to replace our set of standby IKEA food storage this past year, and even the IKEA glass containers available were several times the price of their plastic set. Plus most glass containers from any manufacturer don’t stack, so if you need a lot of them to get through the week and don’t have a lot of kitchen space, that makes a big difference too. We ended up going with Rubbermaid because I just couldn’t find a glass set that would work for what we use most often / fit in our space / didn’t cost a crazy amount. We don’t put them in the microwave, and don’t put food into them until it’s cooled, but I think storage shaming is taking this a little far - especially without more evidence.
It’s still sounding like enough research to give pause about all the official “microwaveable” containers that food comes in, especially for babies. And it’s making me wonder if we need to replace our plastic splatter guard with a glass one, even though it never touches the food.
I’m glad you posted it, even if these subjects always seem to get fighty. No matter where you stand in this, the only way to know that it’s no big deal is to test if it is a big deal. Breathless headlines don’t help, but paying attention can’t hurt.
posted by Mchelly at 9:39 PM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
It’s still sounding like enough research to give pause about all the official “microwaveable” containers that food comes in, especially for babies. And it’s making me wonder if we need to replace our plastic splatter guard with a glass one, even though it never touches the food.
I’m glad you posted it, even if these subjects always seem to get fighty. No matter where you stand in this, the only way to know that it’s no big deal is to test if it is a big deal. Breathless headlines don’t help, but paying attention can’t hurt.
posted by Mchelly at 9:39 PM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Apparently he had a student whose experiments to do with diabetes had suddenly gone haywire - and it turned out that it was because of a switch from glass test tubes to plastic test tubes. The plastic test tubes messed up the samples when heated.
I can't speak to that particular case, but essentially zero molecular bio work gets done in reusable glassware now, and that's been the case for many years. It's all done in disposable plastic, the reason being that even trace biological contaminates can wreak havok in sensitive assays/spectrometry. It's just not worth the trouble of trying to clean and sterilize everything perfectly every time. Also, a lot of samples get stored at super low temperatures (e.g., -80°C), and plastic is much more forgiving than glass when it comes to freeze/thaw cycles.
posted by dephlogisticated at 9:54 PM on July 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
I can't speak to that particular case, but essentially zero molecular bio work gets done in reusable glassware now, and that's been the case for many years. It's all done in disposable plastic, the reason being that even trace biological contaminates can wreak havok in sensitive assays/spectrometry. It's just not worth the trouble of trying to clean and sterilize everything perfectly every time. Also, a lot of samples get stored at super low temperatures (e.g., -80°C), and plastic is much more forgiving than glass when it comes to freeze/thaw cycles.
posted by dephlogisticated at 9:54 PM on July 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
Whatever you think people should obviously do, the fact is that takeout/delivery food and pre-prepared meals from the grocery store are usually in plastic containers, and they're commonly reheated as-is and often per their instructions. Not to mention that you might be at risk of plastic heating from earlier in the chain of custody.
If this is a problem to be solved, it can't be relegated to folks' "personal responsibility" to know that microwaving plastics is unsafe. That's not how humans work when our incentives are aligned differently and we're trying to hang in there and survive day-to-day.
posted by Riki tiki at 10:03 PM on July 31, 2023 [31 favorites]
If this is a problem to be solved, it can't be relegated to folks' "personal responsibility" to know that microwaving plastics is unsafe. That's not how humans work when our incentives are aligned differently and we're trying to hang in there and survive day-to-day.
posted by Riki tiki at 10:03 PM on July 31, 2023 [31 favorites]
We've been storing and microwaving foods in plastic for over 30 years. If the effect was that dramatic, there should already be population-level effects. Maybe there already are, but they're so widespread and diffuse that no one can come up with a study to identify those specific issues.
posted by meowzilla at 10:37 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 10:37 PM on July 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
I guess I thought everyone knew not to do this.
Today I learned that's not the case!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:47 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Today I learned that's not the case!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:47 PM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
"There is (or was) cookware of melamine or similar which were expressly made for microwaving."
Unless there's some very special and explicitly microwave-safe melamine, I doubt it was melamine, which is not safe in the microwave usually.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:48 PM on July 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unless there's some very special and explicitly microwave-safe melamine, I doubt it was melamine, which is not safe in the microwave usually.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:48 PM on July 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
The regulatory vacuum we grew up with has enabled a so-called "chemical body burden", in which all manner of persistent chemicals accumulate in the environment and in our bodies via food, air, and water.
Petrochemical and related industries rely on this to argue for legal immunity — any sickness or death you or others may suffer is often very difficult if not impossible to tie back to initial contamination events.
I try to avoid microwaving plastics, but it is often impossible insofar that so much of our food packaging uses plastics. If not for containers, then often for lining. Glass food storage is no longer typical, with very specific exceptions.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:52 PM on July 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
Petrochemical and related industries rely on this to argue for legal immunity — any sickness or death you or others may suffer is often very difficult if not impossible to tie back to initial contamination events.
I try to avoid microwaving plastics, but it is often impossible insofar that so much of our food packaging uses plastics. If not for containers, then often for lining. Glass food storage is no longer typical, with very specific exceptions.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:52 PM on July 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
I would guess this applies to all types of plastics to some degree, but are some plastics better than others?
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 12:09 AM on August 1, 2023
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 12:09 AM on August 1, 2023
If you're looking for cheap, durable food storage containers: canning jars with aftermarket plastic lids. The lids don't touch the food unless it's upside down but they make the jar not leak. Jars run $2ish and under per each and a pint is a fine lunch portion. They're microwaveable, durable, not hideous, and can stack when lidded.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:17 AM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:17 AM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
>"Microwaving delivers a triple whammy: heat, UV irradiation, and hydrolysis"
In the super-modified microwave at Wired headquarters?
Yup. UV light is measured in nanometers, microwave light (at this point more commonly categorized as radio waves) in centimetes.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:50 AM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
In the super-modified microwave at Wired headquarters?
Yup. UV light is measured in nanometers, microwave light (at this point more commonly categorized as radio waves) in centimetes.
"The UV region covers the wavelength range 100-400 nm and is divided into three bands: UVA (315-400 nm) UVB (280-315 nm) UVC (100-280 nm)." - https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/radiation-ultraviolet-(uv)Unless there's arcing, or parts of your frozen lasagna are heating up over 2000C? - 3000C and the blackbody EM radiation is edging out to the uv range, there shouldn't be any uv.
Typically, consumer ovens work around a nominal 2.45 gigahertz (GHz) – a wavelength of 12.2 centimetres (4.80 in) in the 2.4 GHz to 2.5 GHz ISM band – while large industrial / commercial ovens often use 915 megahertz (MHz) – 32.8 centimetres (12.9 in).[38 ] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:50 AM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
We've been storing and microwaving foods in plastic for over 30 years. If the effect was that dramatic, there should already be population-level effects. Maybe there already are, but they're so widespread and diffuse that no one can come up with a study to identify those specific issues.
Well, this is the problem. We can see population level effects. The constantly rising obesity rates; male sperm counts dropping by more than half; rates of asthma and other breathing ailments; mental health diagnosis rates; just for starters for direct human impact (vs say, the bee & pollinators decline which is having substantial knock on effects on our food supply), but teasing out the exact causes of those - and assigning them to specific, named chemical pollution in our environment, food and water vs e.g. climate change or societal effects is really, really hard because there's a lot of different pollutants and finding a control population is nearly impossible as they're so endemic and we're changing our environment so fast.
Take something as simple as lead; we *know* lead is highly toxic, yet it's hard to quantity precisely what impacts at the population level removing tetra-ethyl lead from petrol actually had, but it was clearly a good thing as it lowered mean blood levels of lead by 90%.
Compare it to BPA, the most common bisphenol, in use since the 50's in all sorts of plastics; we now know that it can have substantial endocrine-disrupting effects in wildlife and animal testing, it's pretty much everywhere, and that pretty much everyone in the world has some in their bloodstream. But how much is too much, how much of an impact does it cause to humans, and over what term? It's being studied, but short of injecting a test population of people with high doses (slightly ethically problematic!) it's going to continue to take more time, if we can ever know for sure. The impacts are almost certainly there - we just don't know which impacts apply to which pollutants and what levels of risk apply to each; or even how much improved our health might be if we'd never used it, because we're all exposed (it's suspected diabetes rates would be lower, for one)
BPA has been banned in the UK from plasticware intended for babies and children, e.g. plastic beakers and bottles to prevent food transfer, and in recognition that they are likely to be microwaved plastics; but that's mainly out of the precautionary principle because of the suspected risk while studies continue.
(FWIW I get a paywall on the article, so don't know how much of this all is in there)
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 2:46 AM on August 1, 2023 [34 favorites]
Well, this is the problem. We can see population level effects. The constantly rising obesity rates; male sperm counts dropping by more than half; rates of asthma and other breathing ailments; mental health diagnosis rates; just for starters for direct human impact (vs say, the bee & pollinators decline which is having substantial knock on effects on our food supply), but teasing out the exact causes of those - and assigning them to specific, named chemical pollution in our environment, food and water vs e.g. climate change or societal effects is really, really hard because there's a lot of different pollutants and finding a control population is nearly impossible as they're so endemic and we're changing our environment so fast.
Take something as simple as lead; we *know* lead is highly toxic, yet it's hard to quantity precisely what impacts at the population level removing tetra-ethyl lead from petrol actually had, but it was clearly a good thing as it lowered mean blood levels of lead by 90%.
Compare it to BPA, the most common bisphenol, in use since the 50's in all sorts of plastics; we now know that it can have substantial endocrine-disrupting effects in wildlife and animal testing, it's pretty much everywhere, and that pretty much everyone in the world has some in their bloodstream. But how much is too much, how much of an impact does it cause to humans, and over what term? It's being studied, but short of injecting a test population of people with high doses (slightly ethically problematic!) it's going to continue to take more time, if we can ever know for sure. The impacts are almost certainly there - we just don't know which impacts apply to which pollutants and what levels of risk apply to each; or even how much improved our health might be if we'd never used it, because we're all exposed (it's suspected diabetes rates would be lower, for one)
BPA has been banned in the UK from plasticware intended for babies and children, e.g. plastic beakers and bottles to prevent food transfer, and in recognition that they are likely to be microwaved plastics; but that's mainly out of the precautionary principle because of the suspected risk while studies continue.
(FWIW I get a paywall on the article, so don't know how much of this all is in there)
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 2:46 AM on August 1, 2023 [34 favorites]
Whatever you think people should obviously do, the fact is that takeout/delivery food and pre-prepared meals from the grocery store are usually in plastic containers, and they're commonly reheated as-is and often per their instructions. Not to mention that you might be at risk of plastic heating from earlier in the chain of custody.
Not to mention every restaurant kitchen out there relies very heavily on plastic for it's prepped food storage.
posted by newpotato at 2:58 AM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I like sous vide cooking, unfortunately it also involves immersing food in plastic polyethylene bags into water, sometimes as hot as 85 °C, and other times for as long as 72 hours.
posted by polymodus at 3:08 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by polymodus at 3:08 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
(FWIW I get a paywall on the article, so don't know how much of this all is in there)
Paywall-free link: https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fstory%2Ffor-the-love-of-god-stop-microwaving-plastic
posted by Magnakai at 4:12 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Paywall-free link: https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fstory%2Ffor-the-love-of-god-stop-microwaving-plastic
posted by Magnakai at 4:12 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
There is a tradeoff here, plastic is a strong barrier to bacterial contamination, a lot of food storage would be much harder and less safe without it.
posted by sammyo at 4:23 AM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 4:23 AM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
The article is interesting, not that long, and people here have already offered most critiques and responses I would also offer. To them, I will add that, absent truly novel findings, I think this is not the sort of thing I am able to ponder endlessly... because we live in a plastic world. The specifics of how fucked we are due to this are not (again, absent truly novel findings) likely to be useful information.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:59 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:59 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
It had not occurred to me that polypropylene would shed micro- and nano-particles into food when heated.
On the other hand, both polypropylene and polyethylene are chemically very similar to paraffin, consisting as they both do of long chains of carbon atoms with a pair of hydrogens hanging off the side of each one; chemically I wouldn't expect to see much difference between micro- and nano-particles of either of those plastics and micro- or nano-droplets of paraffin. That entire family of chemicals is pretty non-reactive in environments dominated by polar solvents such as water, and paraffin is physically more likely to come to molecular bits inside the body than the plastics. So I would expect that anywhere nano-particles of polypropylene have ever got to in my body, the paraffin in every coated candy I've ever ingested and most of the skincare products I've ever used has already visited in rather higher concentrations.
Polypropylene and polyethylene are the only plastics I've ever microwaved food in, to the best of my recollection, because I was aware of plasticizer leaching and neither polypropylene nor polyethylene need plasticizers to render them flexible.
Yes, it's scary that these researchers were able to kill kidney cells in vitro with
I have a few polyethylene storage containers, most of which have been through the dishwasher on many occasions, and the interior surfaces on the old ones are not noticeably duller than those on newer ones, which I would expect them to be if they'd been significantly eroded by use and cleaning. I think they've probably shed more plastic due to being scratched by utensils than from being heated.
Most of the polyethylene I ingest is going to have come from milk, almost all of which is sold in LDPE bottles or LDPE-film-lined cardboard cartons in this country.
All that said: I've only ever rarely microwaved foods in plastic. Most of my reheating is done in or on glass or ceramic. The cost of avoiding it completely is negligible for me, and on the precautionary principle I probably will from now on.
posted by flabdablet at 5:28 AM on August 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
On the other hand, both polypropylene and polyethylene are chemically very similar to paraffin, consisting as they both do of long chains of carbon atoms with a pair of hydrogens hanging off the side of each one; chemically I wouldn't expect to see much difference between micro- and nano-particles of either of those plastics and micro- or nano-droplets of paraffin. That entire family of chemicals is pretty non-reactive in environments dominated by polar solvents such as water, and paraffin is physically more likely to come to molecular bits inside the body than the plastics. So I would expect that anywhere nano-particles of polypropylene have ever got to in my body, the paraffin in every coated candy I've ever ingested and most of the skincare products I've ever used has already visited in rather higher concentrations.
Polypropylene and polyethylene are the only plastics I've ever microwaved food in, to the best of my recollection, because I was aware of plasticizer leaching and neither polypropylene nor polyethylene need plasticizers to render them flexible.
4.2 million and 1.2 billion particles per square centimeter of plasticMillions and billions are large numbers to be sure, but they pale into insignificance compared to the numbers typically encountered in chemistry. The molecular weight of a typical paraffin molecule, say C30H62, is 30 * 12 + 62 = ~400; one gram of paraffin therefore consists of 6 * 1023 / 400 = 1.5 billion trillion molecules. And sure, in many cases we're not talking individual molecules here but the main concern seems to be particles small enough to do sneaky stuff like slip through cell membranes, and it seems to me that those would be closer to paraffin-molecule scale than paraffin-droplet scale.
Yes, it's scary that these researchers were able to kill kidney cells in vitro with
two days of exposure to concentrated microplastics and nanoplasticsbut you can kill kidney cells in vitro by exposing them to concentrated solutions of all kinds of things, many of which take much less than two days to do the job. I'd want to know what kind of concentrations of nanoplastics my kidneys were routinely dealing with, and how those compared to the concentrations tested in that study, before being genuinely alarmed.
I have a few polyethylene storage containers, most of which have been through the dishwasher on many occasions, and the interior surfaces on the old ones are not noticeably duller than those on newer ones, which I would expect them to be if they'd been significantly eroded by use and cleaning. I think they've probably shed more plastic due to being scratched by utensils than from being heated.
Most of the polyethylene I ingest is going to have come from milk, almost all of which is sold in LDPE bottles or LDPE-film-lined cardboard cartons in this country.
All that said: I've only ever rarely microwaved foods in plastic. Most of my reheating is done in or on glass or ceramic. The cost of avoiding it completely is negligible for me, and on the precautionary principle I probably will from now on.
posted by flabdablet at 5:28 AM on August 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
No one wants to talk about the plastics biome? That's what really fascinated me, that microplastics have their own bacterial environment. I never considered such a thing and I've been looking for more info on that.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:38 AM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:38 AM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I have also never seen research that suggests that either polyethylene or polypropylene works as an endocrine disruptor. Plasticizers are certainly known to, but as far as I'm aware the manufacturers of food-grade polypropylene and polyethylene get the rigidity and resilience characteristics they need in their resins by manipulating the length and degree of cross-linking of the polymer molecules themselves rather than by adding extra chemicals.
That's what really fascinated me, that microplastics have their own bacterial environment
I would not expect the microplastics shed from a clean container into clean food to carry a bacterial load that would not be overwhelmed by stomach acids and then thoroughly outcompeted by whatever the encountered in the gut.
I would also not expect the quantity of microplastics shed from food containers and resident in the gut at any given moment to have anything like the surface area of the gut wall itself, so I would expect the effect of a bit of microplastic in the gut contents to make very little difference to the gut biome.
For me, the only concerning part of these findings is about nanoparticles small enough to cross the gut wall and get into the bloodstream. Which, of course, includes plasticizer molecules. I'm not too fussed about the microparticle biome in this context; I think it would be much more of an issue for microplastics ingested at random from the environment, especially given the sharp rise in the microplastic content of everyday dusts.
posted by flabdablet at 5:46 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's what really fascinated me, that microplastics have their own bacterial environment
I would not expect the microplastics shed from a clean container into clean food to carry a bacterial load that would not be overwhelmed by stomach acids and then thoroughly outcompeted by whatever the encountered in the gut.
I would also not expect the quantity of microplastics shed from food containers and resident in the gut at any given moment to have anything like the surface area of the gut wall itself, so I would expect the effect of a bit of microplastic in the gut contents to make very little difference to the gut biome.
For me, the only concerning part of these findings is about nanoparticles small enough to cross the gut wall and get into the bloodstream. Which, of course, includes plasticizer molecules. I'm not too fussed about the microparticle biome in this context; I think it would be much more of an issue for microplastics ingested at random from the environment, especially given the sharp rise in the microplastic content of everyday dusts.
posted by flabdablet at 5:46 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
If our testing lab incubates cells with the wrong growth media (but still a growth media that other mammalian cells can grow in!) those cells will die. If you inoculate a sample with too much salt or change the pH balance, those cells will die. There's a reproducibility crisis and also a crisis in scale and applicability and and and.
Like, on the other end of things, there's chemicals that are purported to be good for you (resveratrol in red wine for this example). A scientist running a moderately sized cell toxicity testing group kept on about it not having an impact in cells, it's not detectable in serum, etc etc. The molecule that is only very slightly water soluble and requires alcohol to be really soluble isn't getting into cells when you don't have a mild percentage of alcohol acting as a carrier (which would kill the cells)? Wow. You don't see it in serum when you spin out the largest volume of hydrophobic material (cell membranes)? Gee wiz, who woulda guessed. Man, so strange that you don't see an effect in cells within weeks when the studies identifying it as a possibility are looking at lifespans and populations.
My point here is that you can find people who will investigate anything and probably not in a way that's useful. But hey, publish or perish!
It's probably not super healthy, not actively toxic, and what are most of us going to do about it?
posted by Slackermagee at 5:55 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Like, on the other end of things, there's chemicals that are purported to be good for you (resveratrol in red wine for this example). A scientist running a moderately sized cell toxicity testing group kept on about it not having an impact in cells, it's not detectable in serum, etc etc. The molecule that is only very slightly water soluble and requires alcohol to be really soluble isn't getting into cells when you don't have a mild percentage of alcohol acting as a carrier (which would kill the cells)? Wow. You don't see it in serum when you spin out the largest volume of hydrophobic material (cell membranes)? Gee wiz, who woulda guessed. Man, so strange that you don't see an effect in cells within weeks when the studies identifying it as a possibility are looking at lifespans and populations.
My point here is that you can find people who will investigate anything and probably not in a way that's useful. But hey, publish or perish!
It's probably not super healthy, not actively toxic, and what are most of us going to do about it?
posted by Slackermagee at 5:55 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m dismayed at how many people decide to not heat their own food in plastic, because they think it might be unhealthy, but still run their plastic through a dishwasher — hot, abrasive, sends the results out for everyone to deal with.
posted by clew at 6:37 AM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by clew at 6:37 AM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
microplastics embedded in our tissues, like the liver
Those of us without cirrhosis probably don't need to worry.
Whether or not microplastics can cause cirrhosis is an interesting question.
posted by flabdablet at 7:01 AM on August 1, 2023
Those of us without cirrhosis probably don't need to worry.
Whether or not microplastics can cause cirrhosis is an interesting question.
posted by flabdablet at 7:01 AM on August 1, 2023
A review of potential human health impacts of micro- and nanoplastics exposure (should be open access):
tl;dr: This research is still in its very early stages and most of the research that's out there is in vitro rather than on live animals or people. But a lot of the studies did find adverse health effects, especially in terms of gut health and reproductive health. One of the few studies on humans found
tl;dr: This research is still in its very early stages and most of the research that's out there is in vitro rather than on live animals or people. But a lot of the studies did find adverse health effects, especially in terms of gut health and reproductive health. One of the few studies on humans found
A higher fecal MNP concentration was found in IBD patients compared to healthy participants. More importantly, a positive correlation was evidenced between the concentration of fecal MNPs and the severity of IBD, implying that MNP exposure may be linked to the disease process or that IBD exacerbated the retention of MPs.posted by Jeanne at 7:29 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
microplastic facial scrub beads
posted by The Half Language Plant at 7:34 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Half Language Plant at 7:34 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Containers? Whenever we microwave, this dish-like plastic shield is placed over the food, to prevent splatters. Guess that's got to go as well, except we just bought a new one at Daiso yesterday.
We've never been very good at any of this "here's a new thing maybe be careful with it before you use it everywhere" thing.
Some of us are extremely wary of the New Thing, but there's always others who can't get enough of it. And there's always some who see it as a money-maker, and disregard its flaws in their advertising.
posted by Rash at 7:38 AM on August 1, 2023
We've never been very good at any of this "here's a new thing maybe be careful with it before you use it everywhere" thing.
Some of us are extremely wary of the New Thing, but there's always others who can't get enough of it. And there's always some who see it as a money-maker, and disregard its flaws in their advertising.
posted by Rash at 7:38 AM on August 1, 2023
I had a coworker at a previous job who microwaved a can of soup in the same plastic tupperware every day for YEARS. It was no longer smooth, the interior surface pock-marked and rough, and it was stained bright red. He called it "Gladys" which I found clever but horrifying. Between the sodium in that canned soup and whatever leeched out of that ancient degrading plastic I just hope he's ok and healthy.
posted by misskaz at 7:44 AM on August 1, 2023
posted by misskaz at 7:44 AM on August 1, 2023
Mod note: Several comments from the OP removed. Please do not try to direct or control the direction of the conversation, thank you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:47 AM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:47 AM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Flabdalblet, I agree that in theory, the polyolefin family of compounds (polypropylene, polyethylene) should be fairly safe. The idea that polyethylene is depolymerizing into dangerous compounds seems kind of silly on its face— ethylene is released by ripe fruit. However. because of the compromises inherent in polyolefin material properties, it’s rare to ever get pure polymers in consumer products.
polypropylene doesn’t need plasticizers to be flexible, but it does need them to prevent cold embrittlement in the fridge and freezer. So it’s almost never a pure polymer in food containers. After cold exposure, pure polypropylene is about as durable as a potato chip.
Polyethylene doesn’t need plasticizers to stay flexible, but high density polyethylene has issues with embrittlement under the high heat of molding, and so plasticizers are often added to make it flow in molds.
Low density polyethylene is a terrible vapor/gas barrier, so it is frequently either impregnated or laminated with other materials that are truly terrible, often chlorinated or fluorinated compounds.
And all the polyolefins are permeable and absorb gluten, lactose, and other food allergens during use. They will never be reusable or recyclable for food use.
posted by Headfullofair at 8:03 AM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
polypropylene doesn’t need plasticizers to be flexible, but it does need them to prevent cold embrittlement in the fridge and freezer. So it’s almost never a pure polymer in food containers. After cold exposure, pure polypropylene is about as durable as a potato chip.
Polyethylene doesn’t need plasticizers to stay flexible, but high density polyethylene has issues with embrittlement under the high heat of molding, and so plasticizers are often added to make it flow in molds.
Low density polyethylene is a terrible vapor/gas barrier, so it is frequently either impregnated or laminated with other materials that are truly terrible, often chlorinated or fluorinated compounds.
And all the polyolefins are permeable and absorb gluten, lactose, and other food allergens during use. They will never be reusable or recyclable for food use.
posted by Headfullofair at 8:03 AM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sure. Also please don't direct emotions at other posters, such as saying a poster is in a panic because they posted a link. We post links here. Focus on the link, not the poster.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:21 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:21 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
While I don't find myself entire convinced by the article, it was a lot more thorough and nuanced than I expect from any science writing these days. I don't even own a microwave, but if the message is to avoid consuming anything that was heated and contained in plastic, that's a really tall order to fill — even in my circumstance. It certainly presented some interesting material to think about. I had never heard of nanoplastics before.
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:22 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:22 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Polyethylene doesn’t need plasticizers to stay flexible, but high density polyethylene has issues with embrittlement under the high heat of molding, and so plasticizers are often added to make it flow in molds.
Interesting. Do you have some links I could follow to find out what plasticizers are likely to be present in our HDPE milk bottles?
posted by flabdablet at 8:33 AM on August 1, 2023
Interesting. Do you have some links I could follow to find out what plasticizers are likely to be present in our HDPE milk bottles?
posted by flabdablet at 8:33 AM on August 1, 2023
I guess I thought everyone knew not to do this.
I mean, previously this message only came to me from people who were kind of shilling/endorsing a whole lifestyle in which I was not interested. You know, Goop-adjacent types of folks who were also maintaining highly restrictive fad diets and drinking crystal-infused water and such. Or my back-to-the-land friends who spun all their own wool to make all their own clothes.
It's not that I thought it was a lie, necessarily, but it was definitely adjacent to a lot of unproven woo and seemed to be on a level with some very hardcore, time-intensive entirely optional life practices.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
I mean, previously this message only came to me from people who were kind of shilling/endorsing a whole lifestyle in which I was not interested. You know, Goop-adjacent types of folks who were also maintaining highly restrictive fad diets and drinking crystal-infused water and such. Or my back-to-the-land friends who spun all their own wool to make all their own clothes.
It's not that I thought it was a lie, necessarily, but it was definitely adjacent to a lot of unproven woo and seemed to be on a level with some very hardcore, time-intensive entirely optional life practices.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:34 AM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
As mentioned upthread, canning jars make great food storage. I use mine with regular canning lids and rings, and I use a hand pump or my vacuum sealer to remove the air from the jar. Leftovers stay fresh for a very long time.
I've never been one to microwave food in its container anyway, whether it was plastic or glass or whatever. I always transfer it to a plate or bowl, for more even heating. Why microwave a brick of food?
posted by xedrik at 8:58 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've never been one to microwave food in its container anyway, whether it was plastic or glass or whatever. I always transfer it to a plate or bowl, for more even heating. Why microwave a brick of food?
posted by xedrik at 8:58 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Glass containers are great for many reasons. They are also heavy and tend to break when dropped. Canning jars usually don't have handles and require wide gripping strength. Glass and ceramic storage and cookware is also vulnerable to shattering and chipping when it contacts hard surfaces. For those who can access conventional stoves, metal cookware A+ for not turning into floor daggers concealed in what was meant to be your lunch but carries burning hot consequences and often also difficult to maneuverable. So! Microwaved leachates it is!
No shade on the topic but for your consideration, additional reasons why some people might even at this late date continue to eat out of plastic.
posted by to wound the autumnal city at 8:59 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
No shade on the topic but for your consideration, additional reasons why some people might even at this late date continue to eat out of plastic.
posted by to wound the autumnal city at 8:59 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
We've been storing and microwaving foods in plastic for over 30 years. If the effect was that dramatic, there should already be population-level effects. Maybe there already are, but they're so widespread and diffuse that no one can come up with a study to identify those specific issues.
There's some things that don't get studied because they're too expensive to study and because most people affected don't have good enough healthcare.
For example: I am personally having fertility problems. I know a lot of other women my age (pre-menopause, have definitely had a lot of time with microwaved plastics) have the same. But that's not an area that really tries to get figured out so much as expensively solved. We don't really understand how fertility works well enough to check these kinds of environmental concerns, but we know that IVF exists, and it's really profitable, so a lot of effort goes there. And like - I can't afford IVF, so they're kind of 'meh' about solving my problems, because the go-to answer is 'just do IVF'. And that's leaving out the people who can't even afford diagnostic healthcare in the first place.
posted by corb at 9:21 AM on August 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
There's some things that don't get studied because they're too expensive to study and because most people affected don't have good enough healthcare.
For example: I am personally having fertility problems. I know a lot of other women my age (pre-menopause, have definitely had a lot of time with microwaved plastics) have the same. But that's not an area that really tries to get figured out so much as expensively solved. We don't really understand how fertility works well enough to check these kinds of environmental concerns, but we know that IVF exists, and it's really profitable, so a lot of effort goes there. And like - I can't afford IVF, so they're kind of 'meh' about solving my problems, because the go-to answer is 'just do IVF'. And that's leaving out the people who can't even afford diagnostic healthcare in the first place.
posted by corb at 9:21 AM on August 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Adding my anecdatum: my family mostly stopped microwaving things in plastic containers back some time in the ‘90s, when my mother was still in grad school studying for her PhD in chemistry, and the issues around BPA being an endocrine disrupter that had negative environmental impacts first came out (in the scientific, non-woo literature). The obvious melting and pitting of plastic containers with especially tomato-based or similar foods could tributes to our hesitancy. My parents still use plastic containers for fridge storage. (An upside-down plate over the top of a bowl or container is a useful alternative to keeping plastic lids on to prevent splashing, btw. Paper towel also sometimes works, as does heating longer at a lower power level and/or pausing to stir more, though the latter method is never foolproof, I find.)
posted by eviemath at 9:32 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 9:32 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Formosa is claiming (PDF link) their HDPE milk bottle blow molding resin is a “homopolymer,” which is an unregulated term that should mean no additives/contaminants. Every other HDPE bottle resin they list as having additives.
posted by Headfullofair at 9:38 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Headfullofair at 9:38 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
As an example of health consequences, BPA is chemically active in a way similar to estrogen and is thought to be a factor in triggering early-onset puberty.
Phthalates are another class of such chemicals, often found in plumbing piping and which leach out into drinking water, especially in newly-constructed homes.
BPA, phthalates, and other plasticizers have been found in measurable amounts in disposable coffee cups from Starbucks and McDonalds as recently as 2017.
An upside-down plate over the top of a bowl or container is a useful alternative to keeping plastic lids on to prevent splashing, btw.
I like this trick for reheating food as a plate 1) provides just enough weight to hold in and gently vent steam to reheat the contents well; and, 2) I can flip the plate over and use it to hold a very hot bowl.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:49 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Phthalates are another class of such chemicals, often found in plumbing piping and which leach out into drinking water, especially in newly-constructed homes.
BPA, phthalates, and other plasticizers have been found in measurable amounts in disposable coffee cups from Starbucks and McDonalds as recently as 2017.
An upside-down plate over the top of a bowl or container is a useful alternative to keeping plastic lids on to prevent splashing, btw.
I like this trick for reheating food as a plate 1) provides just enough weight to hold in and gently vent steam to reheat the contents well; and, 2) I can flip the plate over and use it to hold a very hot bowl.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:49 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A few more comments deleted. As mentioned in the guidelines, it is OK to disagree, but please allow others to speak about their perspective and keep the conversation on topic.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:57 AM on August 1, 2023
posted by loup (staff) at 9:57 AM on August 1, 2023
when my mother was still in grad school studying for her PhD in chemistry, and the issues around BPA being an endocrine disrupter that had negative environmental impacts first came out (in the scientific, non-woo literature)
I dunno if that parenthetical is directed at my comment, but just to be clear: I didn't say that non-woo literature on this never existed, just that as a not-scientist, with parents who are also not-scientists, the only stuff I ever saw about plastics in microwaves came from distinctly non-scientific sources.
(In general there really isn't much in this world that "everyone" knows. In our little tech savvy internet enabled perpetually online smarty pants Mefi world this is extra true.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:03 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I dunno if that parenthetical is directed at my comment, but just to be clear: I didn't say that non-woo literature on this never existed, just that as a not-scientist, with parents who are also not-scientists, the only stuff I ever saw about plastics in microwaves came from distinctly non-scientific sources.
(In general there really isn't much in this world that "everyone" knows. In our little tech savvy internet enabled perpetually online smarty pants Mefi world this is extra true.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:03 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've been wondering if the epidemic of insulin resistance charts at all with the adoption of plastic bottles containing pop. There was a big issue in 1979 when they realised that when 1.5 litre pop bottles tipped over, or were dropped, they sometimes exploded and people were getting nasty wounds. There were cases where small children were blinded and even adults in danger of bleeding out.
The result was a more or less panic transition to plastic, which seemed rather satisfactory at the time - They were much lighter, when discarded instead of being returned did not result in broken glass everywhere, and were actually more likely to be returned than that glass deposit bottles. Back then kids that went barefoot at the beach or in the park, often ended up with lacerated feet. Broken glass was everywhere, including sandboxes in playgrounds. A lot of children were not allowed to play in the sandbox at the park because of the cigarette butts and broken glass that were not a surprising find if you started digging.
But pop is a super saturated sugar solution, and the way they manage to dissolve more sugar in pop than can be dissolved in water is by making them highly acidic. Coca Cola, famously, makes an excellent drain cleaner and finish remover. So starting in the very late seventies, people who drink pop they bought at the grocery store have been getting it from plastic bottles exposed to pressurized highly acidic liquids. I know that pop damages plastic. I once bought a set of large plastic tumblers for making smoothies for my family, and asked my housemate not to use them for pop. He did anyway and they went from being transparent to being cloudy from the acid eating away at the plastic.
Some of the research into insulin resistance showed that drinking diet pop is just as bad as pop with sugar, even though it doesn't lead to weight gain the same way. If the culprit is plastic leachate rather than the sugar, that would track nicely.
In 1997 WHO reported that the incident of obesity had tripled since 1975. That looks like it does chart. I'm really curious about this now. I wonder.
I also wonder if our descendants will look back at the Roman era and say, "They used lead pipes for their drinking water. Jesus!" "You think that's bad, and in the twentieth century they used plastic for food. Jesus! How could they not have known it would destroy them? They would have seen people getting sick around them. How could they not know??"
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:05 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
The result was a more or less panic transition to plastic, which seemed rather satisfactory at the time - They were much lighter, when discarded instead of being returned did not result in broken glass everywhere, and were actually more likely to be returned than that glass deposit bottles. Back then kids that went barefoot at the beach or in the park, often ended up with lacerated feet. Broken glass was everywhere, including sandboxes in playgrounds. A lot of children were not allowed to play in the sandbox at the park because of the cigarette butts and broken glass that were not a surprising find if you started digging.
But pop is a super saturated sugar solution, and the way they manage to dissolve more sugar in pop than can be dissolved in water is by making them highly acidic. Coca Cola, famously, makes an excellent drain cleaner and finish remover. So starting in the very late seventies, people who drink pop they bought at the grocery store have been getting it from plastic bottles exposed to pressurized highly acidic liquids. I know that pop damages plastic. I once bought a set of large plastic tumblers for making smoothies for my family, and asked my housemate not to use them for pop. He did anyway and they went from being transparent to being cloudy from the acid eating away at the plastic.
Some of the research into insulin resistance showed that drinking diet pop is just as bad as pop with sugar, even though it doesn't lead to weight gain the same way. If the culprit is plastic leachate rather than the sugar, that would track nicely.
In 1997 WHO reported that the incident of obesity had tripled since 1975. That looks like it does chart. I'm really curious about this now. I wonder.
I also wonder if our descendants will look back at the Roman era and say, "They used lead pipes for their drinking water. Jesus!" "You think that's bad, and in the twentieth century they used plastic for food. Jesus! How could they not have known it would destroy them? They would have seen people getting sick around them. How could they not know??"
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:05 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
No more paneer masala for me, because I will *definitely* not feel up for breaking up the frozen part into chunks and transferring it into a porcelain bowl, spilling some of it, as opposed to microwaving it to the point where it's scoopable and doing it then.
Bagels and frozen pizza still OK?
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:28 AM on August 1, 2023
Bagels and frozen pizza still OK?
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:28 AM on August 1, 2023
Here's my own hot take: "steam in bag" veggies should be illegal.
I hate them. You used to be able to easily find larger bags of frozen or fresh veggies, but now everything seems to be steam in bag. Bags are thus ending up smaller (because who steams 1 lb at a time?) and the plastic is thicker and harder to recycle (yes let's make more plastic waste). The smaller bags cost more (no savings for bulk buy and the plastic with steam vent pores costs more to manufacture than a thin film bag) and of course you end up heating plastic in the microwave!
And that's before we even get into the whole issue of so many of them having some sort of sauce added, when what I want is some damned veggies.
Steamer basket for life, yo. It's not that difficult and it doesn't really take any more time, plus you can spot-check the veggies and take them off heat before the broccoli becomes unappetizing mush.
For the rest? Think about it. How many people have a beloved set of plastic bowls or containers passed down for generations? I don't, but I do have my grandparent's cast iron and Pyrex... I mean it's all heavy and can be fragile, but it isn't full of microplastics
posted by caution live frogs at 10:45 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hate them. You used to be able to easily find larger bags of frozen or fresh veggies, but now everything seems to be steam in bag. Bags are thus ending up smaller (because who steams 1 lb at a time?) and the plastic is thicker and harder to recycle (yes let's make more plastic waste). The smaller bags cost more (no savings for bulk buy and the plastic with steam vent pores costs more to manufacture than a thin film bag) and of course you end up heating plastic in the microwave!
And that's before we even get into the whole issue of so many of them having some sort of sauce added, when what I want is some damned veggies.
Steamer basket for life, yo. It's not that difficult and it doesn't really take any more time, plus you can spot-check the veggies and take them off heat before the broccoli becomes unappetizing mush.
For the rest? Think about it. How many people have a beloved set of plastic bowls or containers passed down for generations? I don't, but I do have my grandparent's cast iron and Pyrex... I mean it's all heavy and can be fragile, but it isn't full of microplastics
posted by caution live frogs at 10:45 AM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I haven't lived anywhere with a microwave in over 10 years. My current housemate forbids and loathes microwaves, and not because of any weird "it's radiation!" woo because we definitely all understand microwaves aren't ionizing radiation, our wifi uses microwaves, etc.
I'm honestly kind of glad because it severely limits what kind of ready to eat, heavily packaged junk food I will bring home and eat and we have a very nice toaster oven for quick snacks, meals, and reheating things.
Which means I can still have some amount of junk food like frozen pizza or various nugget-shaped things and these are all better in a toaster oven anyway.
I've lived in legitimate urban food deserts before where all I had was a microwave and whatever totally garbage food I could get cold/frozen on food stamps and the "healthiest" option for a hot meal might be a microwavable cheeseburger or frozen burrito or something and I really, really don't miss that.
We do use plastic for food storage but also have a whole lot of glass, including way too many canning jars, which we also use as cups and mugs and all that as rural hipsters tend to do.
Anyway, that's something I'm really thankful for right now because my life is hard enough as it is. I don't live in a food desert. There's almost always something fresh to eat whether it's fresh produce from the shared gardens or locally grown produce from our amazing food bank or a pot of soup happening that the whole house and just snack on.
We have a dedicated counter space and shelf for shared things that basically means "please eat me before I become chicken feed or compost for the gardens" so I eat way more fresh food than I have for most of my life.
posted by loquacious at 11:09 AM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm honestly kind of glad because it severely limits what kind of ready to eat, heavily packaged junk food I will bring home and eat and we have a very nice toaster oven for quick snacks, meals, and reheating things.
Which means I can still have some amount of junk food like frozen pizza or various nugget-shaped things and these are all better in a toaster oven anyway.
I've lived in legitimate urban food deserts before where all I had was a microwave and whatever totally garbage food I could get cold/frozen on food stamps and the "healthiest" option for a hot meal might be a microwavable cheeseburger or frozen burrito or something and I really, really don't miss that.
We do use plastic for food storage but also have a whole lot of glass, including way too many canning jars, which we also use as cups and mugs and all that as rural hipsters tend to do.
Anyway, that's something I'm really thankful for right now because my life is hard enough as it is. I don't live in a food desert. There's almost always something fresh to eat whether it's fresh produce from the shared gardens or locally grown produce from our amazing food bank or a pot of soup happening that the whole house and just snack on.
We have a dedicated counter space and shelf for shared things that basically means "please eat me before I become chicken feed or compost for the gardens" so I eat way more fresh food than I have for most of my life.
posted by loquacious at 11:09 AM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Two years ago, I decided that I could afford to upgrade my food storage containers from old plastic takeout containers to Snapware. I am now a convert and recently bought more. Snapware is the same as Pyrex but with lids that fold over and snap onto the bottom portion. My food takes longer to expire now, which is what I was hoping for, but, unexpectedly, we've also been eating more. Because they are truly clear, I see what leftovers we have at a glance and eat them instead of discovering them on trash day. They also stack.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:15 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:15 AM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not to mention every restaurant kitchen out there relies very heavily on plastic for it's prepped food storage.
Outside of fast food or casual chains this is way less common in commercial kitchens than you'd think, mainly because any indie restaurant hates consumable single use plastic waste because it's expensive and a waste of money, and metal hotel pans and inserts are cheap, durable and last forever.
I have never once put hot food into plastic, mainly because it's against food handling rules. Not because of the plastic, but because they don't really make wide, shallow hotel pans and sheets out of plastic.
Things like hot soups or proteins being pre-cooked and stored for later has to go into flat hotel pans less than 2-3" deep and put in the fridge without a cover until it reaches a safe holding temp and the rules specifically state no covers or cling wraps so condensation can't happen and promote bacterial growth, and letting it evaporate a little speeds cooling.
After it's at a safe cold holding temp it can go into a plastic lexan storage or cubes or whatever.
There are some instances when hot food and plastic meet I can think of (that aren't sous vide), like ice paddles, which is a big plastic wand you fill with ice and cold water to rapidly cool a large batch of soup but you typically only see these in very large kitchens where 10-20 gallons of soup on a tilt table or skillet is a common thing and it will take too long for it to cool to safe storage and holding temps.
Another major failure about plastics in commercial kitchens is how plastic NSF rated cutting board are mandatory and you can't use wood for whatever outdated and misguided reasons, since we now know that wood cutting boards tend to self-sanitize due to wood fibers killing bacteria.
As for single use plastics like wrap, yeah, it's sometimes used for portioning or storage but it's a lot more common to see things portioned into a metal or lexan sixpans with a hard lid, or maybe cling wrap as a lid where it's not in direct contact with the food.
And wherever possible kitchen cooks and staff prefer hard lid. Even commercial cling wrap is a pain in the ass to handle and use and it's even worse if you have gloves on and you're trying to work at speed.
posted by loquacious at 11:55 AM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Outside of fast food or casual chains this is way less common in commercial kitchens than you'd think, mainly because any indie restaurant hates consumable single use plastic waste because it's expensive and a waste of money, and metal hotel pans and inserts are cheap, durable and last forever.
I have never once put hot food into plastic, mainly because it's against food handling rules. Not because of the plastic, but because they don't really make wide, shallow hotel pans and sheets out of plastic.
Things like hot soups or proteins being pre-cooked and stored for later has to go into flat hotel pans less than 2-3" deep and put in the fridge without a cover until it reaches a safe holding temp and the rules specifically state no covers or cling wraps so condensation can't happen and promote bacterial growth, and letting it evaporate a little speeds cooling.
After it's at a safe cold holding temp it can go into a plastic lexan storage or cubes or whatever.
There are some instances when hot food and plastic meet I can think of (that aren't sous vide), like ice paddles, which is a big plastic wand you fill with ice and cold water to rapidly cool a large batch of soup but you typically only see these in very large kitchens where 10-20 gallons of soup on a tilt table or skillet is a common thing and it will take too long for it to cool to safe storage and holding temps.
Another major failure about plastics in commercial kitchens is how plastic NSF rated cutting board are mandatory and you can't use wood for whatever outdated and misguided reasons, since we now know that wood cutting boards tend to self-sanitize due to wood fibers killing bacteria.
As for single use plastics like wrap, yeah, it's sometimes used for portioning or storage but it's a lot more common to see things portioned into a metal or lexan sixpans with a hard lid, or maybe cling wrap as a lid where it's not in direct contact with the food.
And wherever possible kitchen cooks and staff prefer hard lid. Even commercial cling wrap is a pain in the ass to handle and use and it's even worse if you have gloves on and you're trying to work at speed.
posted by loquacious at 11:55 AM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
The study has been covered elsewhere... Wired meets it's expected very low bar of credibility (UV radiation?!?). However, from the supplementary materials that is visible through the paywall, one detail jumped out: their 'microwave' test case was putting a commercial baby food container in a 1000 watt oven for 3 minutes! Maybe their microwave sucks, but if I did that in our oven, I'd be more worried about a steam explosion than microplastics. I'd certainly never feed food that hot to anyone, much less a baby.
So it certainly makes me suspect a case of dailing up the test conditions until they got a result they could publish, and assume no one would bother looking at the details.
posted by cfraenkel at 11:58 AM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
So it certainly makes me suspect a case of dailing up the test conditions until they got a result they could publish, and assume no one would bother looking at the details.
posted by cfraenkel at 11:58 AM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Steamer basket for life, yo. It's not that difficult and it doesn't really take any more time,
Uhhh doesn't it? It takes as long for the water to start simmering as the entire microwave process takes, and then one has a large and bulky pot/steamer to both clean and store. I gave away my steamer years ago because that stupid fucker never once fit in my stupid apartment sinks, which weren't even like a nonstandard depth or width, just extremely builder grade with no hand-held sprayers or anything.
Like I'm not arguing that steam-in-bag veggies are the bestest ever and if the extra space is available, and the extra time/effort is no particular hurdle, fantastic! But it's just patently untrue that the stovetop steamer basket process is as fast and simple as "throw into microwave, press buttons, remove, 0 dirty dishes created."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Uhhh doesn't it? It takes as long for the water to start simmering as the entire microwave process takes, and then one has a large and bulky pot/steamer to both clean and store. I gave away my steamer years ago because that stupid fucker never once fit in my stupid apartment sinks, which weren't even like a nonstandard depth or width, just extremely builder grade with no hand-held sprayers or anything.
Like I'm not arguing that steam-in-bag veggies are the bestest ever and if the extra space is available, and the extra time/effort is no particular hurdle, fantastic! But it's just patently untrue that the stovetop steamer basket process is as fast and simple as "throw into microwave, press buttons, remove, 0 dirty dishes created."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Throw into bowl, cover bowl with plate, blast in microwave is very nearly that simple and microwave-steaming vegetables doesn't "dirty" the containing dishes beyond what a very short sluice with hot water will completely remove.
Bonus: no steam burns from opening the bag.
posted by flabdablet at 12:32 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Bonus: no steam burns from opening the bag.
posted by flabdablet at 12:32 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
it's a lot more common to see things portioned into a metal or lexan sixpans with a hard lid
Lexan is polycarbonate, and polycarbonate is polymerized BPA, and the chance of polycarbonate leaching a bit of leftover monomer is exactly why I've never microwaved anything in polycarbonate; BPA is known to be an endocrine disruptor.
posted by flabdablet at 12:38 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lexan is polycarbonate, and polycarbonate is polymerized BPA, and the chance of polycarbonate leaching a bit of leftover monomer is exactly why I've never microwaved anything in polycarbonate; BPA is known to be an endocrine disruptor.
posted by flabdablet at 12:38 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I use a microwave reasonably often, but I can't remember the last time I microwaved plastic in it. Am I the only one here who just transfers the leftovers to a plate before microwaving? Try it! It also makes it easier to spread the food out and get it evenly heated.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:52 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:52 PM on August 1, 2023
It's worth mentioning that while BPA is theoretically an endocrine disruptor, its estrogen-like activity is 37 thousand times weaker than actual estrogen, and the amount of BPA left over (it's not in the plastic as such, it's left over from processes to produce the plastic) in typical plastic is in the tens of parts per million. That means that to get the amount of BPA equivalent to, say, 2mg of estrogen, the starting dose per day taken by trans women, for instance, you'd need the BPA in something like 740 kilograms of plastic. It might have a long-term effect, of course, but these numbers seem extremely low.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:04 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:04 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Purely as a personal decision, I'm probably gonna keep microwaving in plastic for at least a while.
- I already have enough executive function struggles that 'ffs please eat some food so you don't die' is something I can reliably both remember and manage to do about once a day.
- I absolutely cannot add 'cook everyday' to that, because I will just stop eating. Two moderate-effort meals on the weekend when I have more time, and one 'make pot of rice and fry some tofu, I already have kimchi in the fridge, that'll do' to portion, chill, and reheat, is about my limit.
- glass containers are expensive and breakable and I am not coordinated enough to reliably manage that anywhere outside the lab. I have a six-pack of plastic containers with little dividers, advertised as microwaveable, and flat enough to cool and store food in, and they've lasted years. One single glass container with no dividers costs more than two six-packs of my plastic containers.
- my hormones are already fucked, the extra estrogen-like activity is more likely helping than harming tbh.
Is it optimal, probably not, is it good for me, I don't have the spoons to care because malnutrition is worse, am I going to stop, probably not.
posted by ngaiotonga at 1:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
- I already have enough executive function struggles that 'ffs please eat some food so you don't die' is something I can reliably both remember and manage to do about once a day.
- I absolutely cannot add 'cook everyday' to that, because I will just stop eating. Two moderate-effort meals on the weekend when I have more time, and one 'make pot of rice and fry some tofu, I already have kimchi in the fridge, that'll do' to portion, chill, and reheat, is about my limit.
- glass containers are expensive and breakable and I am not coordinated enough to reliably manage that anywhere outside the lab. I have a six-pack of plastic containers with little dividers, advertised as microwaveable, and flat enough to cool and store food in, and they've lasted years. One single glass container with no dividers costs more than two six-packs of my plastic containers.
- my hormones are already fucked, the extra estrogen-like activity is more likely helping than harming tbh.
Is it optimal, probably not, is it good for me, I don't have the spoons to care because malnutrition is worse, am I going to stop, probably not.
posted by ngaiotonga at 1:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Am I the only one here who just transfers the leftovers to a plate before microwaving?
I'll do that when I'm eating at home, but when I'm eating at work I don't generally have plates/bowls around besides the container I brought the food from home in. (I could bring plates and bowls in, but the mess of transferring a soup or stew from container to bowl to microwave to desk is not worth it).
FWIW, many people have valid reasons to stick with plastic and I don't intend to undermine those or be argumentative, but I am clumsy af and I have never had a glass food storage container break. I think they make them to be pretty shatterproof these days. (I've had good luck with Rubbermaid Brilliance and Snapware glass food storage containers. And, yeah - they're really expensive compared with plastic.)
posted by Jeanne at 1:17 PM on August 1, 2023
I'll do that when I'm eating at home, but when I'm eating at work I don't generally have plates/bowls around besides the container I brought the food from home in. (I could bring plates and bowls in, but the mess of transferring a soup or stew from container to bowl to microwave to desk is not worth it).
FWIW, many people have valid reasons to stick with plastic and I don't intend to undermine those or be argumentative, but I am clumsy af and I have never had a glass food storage container break. I think they make them to be pretty shatterproof these days. (I've had good luck with Rubbermaid Brilliance and Snapware glass food storage containers. And, yeah - they're really expensive compared with plastic.)
posted by Jeanne at 1:17 PM on August 1, 2023
widespread use of plastics and the fact we are approaching 8 billion humans on this planet appear to be deeply related
and in this world of contrasts, a thing that helps us proliferate is probably contributing to conditions that will soon address and mitigate proliferation
posted by elkevelvet at 1:37 PM on August 1, 2023
and in this world of contrasts, a thing that helps us proliferate is probably contributing to conditions that will soon address and mitigate proliferation
posted by elkevelvet at 1:37 PM on August 1, 2023
I don't really use the microwave much (not because I am worried about public health or anything, but I'd rather just reheat on the stove because it's easier for me to doctor leftovers in a pan) , but if I find out that the reason I'm a depressed fat person with allergies or whatever is because, as it turns out, I have put sauce and soup, while still warm, in a deli containers for storage, it will probably serve me right. But I should point out that if we're going down this road, people have make more of an effort to return the pyrex after you take them food, because listen: it adds up.
posted by thivaia at 1:50 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 1:50 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wear a denture which is mostly made of plastic. It's in my mouth whenever I'm not sleeping, basically. It definitely comes in contact with my food --- literally all of it, all temperatures, acidities, concentrations of oils, and on and on. On the bright side, if I got rid of it, I guess I'd probaby eat less food heated up in the microwave...
posted by Chef Flamboyardee at 1:56 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Chef Flamboyardee at 1:56 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can't imagine that heating your dentures in the microwave would go well. Probably someone out there tried and learned the hard way, though.
posted by blnkfrnk at 2:14 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by blnkfrnk at 2:14 PM on August 1, 2023
We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese: "I gave away my steamer years ago because that stupid fucker never once fit in my stupid apartment sinks"
That's weird. How big was your steamer? We have one of the little fold-up ones that is maybe 5-6" wide closed. Fits in most of our pots. Looks just like the one my parents owned. When fully unfolded it's not any larger in diameter than our dinner plates.
Yes technically it's slower than the microwave because Physics, but when I'm cooking spaghetti or chicken or whatever, if I turn on the burner under the steamer at the same time, it all gets done at once. And it doesn't end up with the veggies tasting like plastic.
posted by caution live frogs at 2:50 PM on August 1, 2023
That's weird. How big was your steamer? We have one of the little fold-up ones that is maybe 5-6" wide closed. Fits in most of our pots. Looks just like the one my parents owned. When fully unfolded it's not any larger in diameter than our dinner plates.
Yes technically it's slower than the microwave because Physics, but when I'm cooking spaghetti or chicken or whatever, if I turn on the burner under the steamer at the same time, it all gets done at once. And it doesn't end up with the veggies tasting like plastic.
posted by caution live frogs at 2:50 PM on August 1, 2023
That's weird. How big was your steamer?
I have no idea, it's been ages. (It's also been ages since I cooked anything at all, so if there have been vast advances in the fields of steamers I concede I would not know.)
But at any rate the specifics of how I, an individual on metafilter, cooks or doesn't cook vegetables are beside the point. I just get frustrated when people claim an obviously more involved and longer process somehow isn't that. Like, just say that it's harder with more dishes to wash but you feel it's worth it, and people can do their own math on it from there! (This is honestly my beef with most conversations around food and cooking anyway, not just this specific issue.) Solutions that simply add complexity or time to preparing a food, without compensating for that elsewhere, will chiefly accomplish fewer people eating that food, and as always the hardest hit will be people who already struggle to eat well.
For most people in the US, at any rate, to get all of the heated plastic out of their lives would require an enormous degree of outreach and involve a huge investment of time and money on both the large-scale regulatory level and the individual household level, and we may as well just admit it!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:23 PM on August 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
I have no idea, it's been ages. (It's also been ages since I cooked anything at all, so if there have been vast advances in the fields of steamers I concede I would not know.)
But at any rate the specifics of how I, an individual on metafilter, cooks or doesn't cook vegetables are beside the point. I just get frustrated when people claim an obviously more involved and longer process somehow isn't that. Like, just say that it's harder with more dishes to wash but you feel it's worth it, and people can do their own math on it from there! (This is honestly my beef with most conversations around food and cooking anyway, not just this specific issue.) Solutions that simply add complexity or time to preparing a food, without compensating for that elsewhere, will chiefly accomplish fewer people eating that food, and as always the hardest hit will be people who already struggle to eat well.
For most people in the US, at any rate, to get all of the heated plastic out of their lives would require an enormous degree of outreach and involve a huge investment of time and money on both the large-scale regulatory level and the individual household level, and we may as well just admit it!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:23 PM on August 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's worth mentioning that while BPA is theoretically an endocrine disruptor, its estrogen-like activity is 37 thousand times weaker than actual estrogen, and the amount of BPA left over
The reality as I understand it is that there are many chemicals with some likely endocrine activity in humans, including naturally occurring ones (if you want to poke at “woo” people, do some reading on essential oils). Any of them individually might not do much, but our increasing net exposure to a proliferation of many novel ones is a legitimate concern, and the point that each one individually probably doesn’t do much can’t be used to dodge the issue indefinitely. I think “microplastics” probably also fit into the large category of “cumulative ecological and human health concerns,” which is why their status as the hot thing in the online “toxin” discourse irritates me sometimes, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t also a legitimate concern (and closely linked with others).
posted by atoxyl at 5:36 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
The reality as I understand it is that there are many chemicals with some likely endocrine activity in humans, including naturally occurring ones (if you want to poke at “woo” people, do some reading on essential oils). Any of them individually might not do much, but our increasing net exposure to a proliferation of many novel ones is a legitimate concern, and the point that each one individually probably doesn’t do much can’t be used to dodge the issue indefinitely. I think “microplastics” probably also fit into the large category of “cumulative ecological and human health concerns,” which is why their status as the hot thing in the online “toxin” discourse irritates me sometimes, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t also a legitimate concern (and closely linked with others).
posted by atoxyl at 5:36 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
it's not in the plastic as such, it's left over from processes to produce the plastic
As flabdablet said, it is the monomer of polycarbonate. I don’t know how much polycarbonate breaks down to the monomer but in that specific case it is the plastic on some level.
It’s also worth knowing that some “BPA-free” plastics with similar properties are polymers of very similar substances like BPS. Although I think now one of the leading replacements is Tritan. That one I’m just not sure we know that much about yet.
posted by atoxyl at 5:42 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
As flabdablet said, it is the monomer of polycarbonate. I don’t know how much polycarbonate breaks down to the monomer but in that specific case it is the plastic on some level.
It’s also worth knowing that some “BPA-free” plastics with similar properties are polymers of very similar substances like BPS. Although I think now one of the leading replacements is Tritan. That one I’m just not sure we know that much about yet.
posted by atoxyl at 5:42 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
(It’s claimed however that the monomers are safer. I mean, that’s the point.)
posted by atoxyl at 5:47 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by atoxyl at 5:47 PM on August 1, 2023
atoxyl: (It’s claimed however that the monomers are safer. I mean, that’s the point.)Hmm, did a toxic arsenic compound write this?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 6:49 PM on August 1, 2023
the fact we are approaching 8 billion humans on this planet
is probably out of date.
posted by flabdablet at 8:32 PM on August 1, 2023
is probably out of date.
posted by flabdablet at 8:32 PM on August 1, 2023
Hmm, did a toxic arsenic compound write this?
Less toxic than the preceding arsenical drugs - it’s right in the name!
posted by atoxyl at 9:09 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Less toxic than the preceding arsenical drugs - it’s right in the name!
posted by atoxyl at 9:09 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Korean marts have these cool steel food storage containers with plastic snap-on lids and a silicon gasket so it doesn't leak. On the rare occasions I have the energy to drag food to work, I heat it at home and put it in one of those things with a towel wrapped around it, and I just eat it at like 10:00 so it's still hot.
I like those things a lot. As a fun bonus, you can use them as cake pans for weentzy cakes, and then if you're not going to finish the cake same day you bake it, you can slap the cooled cake layer back in the steel pan, cram the lid on, and throw it in the freezer, where it will not pick up any godawful whiff because it's all nicely protected.
I also have a bunch of Anchor Hocking glass storage containers, but they're not as versatile or practical. The crappy plastic lids tend to crack and fail, and they're not the nifty snap-on kind with the gasket, so they're not portable, plus of course they're heavy. And if you drop them, they break.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:25 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I like those things a lot. As a fun bonus, you can use them as cake pans for weentzy cakes, and then if you're not going to finish the cake same day you bake it, you can slap the cooled cake layer back in the steel pan, cram the lid on, and throw it in the freezer, where it will not pick up any godawful whiff because it's all nicely protected.
I also have a bunch of Anchor Hocking glass storage containers, but they're not as versatile or practical. The crappy plastic lids tend to crack and fail, and they're not the nifty snap-on kind with the gasket, so they're not portable, plus of course they're heavy. And if you drop them, they break.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:25 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lexan is polycarbonate, and polycarbonate is polymerized BPA,
Sure, but the point of my comment is that (generally speaking) we're not putting hot food directly into lexan storage or microwaving in it. If we're using lexan it's for cold or chilled ingredients specifically because you don't put hot food into cube-shaped containers for cooling or chilling because it takes too long and it's against food handling rules and guidelines.
If you're worried about cold food touching polycarbonate when you dine out there's a ton of other things you should be worried about first, like plastic cutting boards creating microplastics, commercial food service packaging or even the industrial food prep lines and machinery that are often entirely built out of plastics that come in direct contact with hot or cold food.
posted by loquacious at 5:28 PM on August 2, 2023
Sure, but the point of my comment is that (generally speaking) we're not putting hot food directly into lexan storage or microwaving in it. If we're using lexan it's for cold or chilled ingredients specifically because you don't put hot food into cube-shaped containers for cooling or chilling because it takes too long and it's against food handling rules and guidelines.
If you're worried about cold food touching polycarbonate when you dine out there's a ton of other things you should be worried about first, like plastic cutting boards creating microplastics, commercial food service packaging or even the industrial food prep lines and machinery that are often entirely built out of plastics that come in direct contact with hot or cold food.
posted by loquacious at 5:28 PM on August 2, 2023
Thousands Of Microplastics Discovered In Human Heart Tissue For First Time
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:17 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:17 AM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Microplastics infiltrate all systems of body, cause behavioral changes
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:45 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:45 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good lord, we're doomed. At least we'll be very shiny and well-preserved.
posted by mittens at 12:55 PM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mittens at 12:55 PM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
We are doomed. Separately, sixty lab mice guzzling "fluorescently-labeled pristine polystyrene microplastics" laced water for 3 weeks were unlikely to triumph.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:33 PM on August 29, 2023
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:33 PM on August 29, 2023
Sorry, mice! Science has not been kind to you.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:11 AM on August 30, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:11 AM on August 30, 2023
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Also the word plastisphere, wow.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:16 PM on July 31, 2023 [4 favorites]