It is not okay for men to "help" women they don't know without asking

August 5, 2023 12:23 AM

It is not okay for men to "help" women who they don't know without asking consent/permission first. "A man tried to help me fix my bike despite me asking him not to. Time for men to learn that this shit is not helpful, it's control."
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries (119 comments total)

was playing Gyruss for the first time at an arcade convention when a random dude who had memorized the patterns materialized next to me & started pointing at the locations where the enemy ships were going to appear

this did the opposite of enhancing my Gyruss experience but I didn't want to be rude to this guy any more than the article's author wanted to be rude to bike guy, deep sigh
posted by taquito sunrise at 12:41 AM on August 5, 2023 [16 favorites]

Amen.
posted by parmanparman at 3:18 AM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

1) Amen

2) the other links on the poster's blog are.....quite different.
posted by lalochezia at 3:56 AM on August 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

Two recent experiences of this in urban stream ecology field work:

I have been sampling groundwater wells in a city park with a pump powered by a marine deep cycle battery, as I have done many many times. I am putting the battery back in my car. A man pulls over to tell me that I am putting the battery in my car wrong and I shouldn't even be transporting such a battery in a car, only in a pickup. I tell him I've done this many times and I am doing it safely. I do not tell him about carrying a frame backpack with three of these batteries stacked on top of each other for several miles through forests.

I am sampling an urban pond in my chest waders, as I have done literally thousands of times at this point in my life. A man pulls over to tell me that chest waders can be dangerous if they are overtopped and filled with water, and that I shouldn't be doing field work alone. I tell him that this is my job and I know what I'm doing and also the damn pond only comes up to my damn knees.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:59 AM on August 5, 2023 [94 favorites]

> 2) the other links on the poster's blog are.....quite different.

i was like "oh god is she a nazi" but then i went to her blog and found out that she's definitely not a nazi but instead it's mostly about fuckin' and i'm like 1: whew, 2: hey, a new blog about fuckin' to read! awesome!
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:10 AM on August 5, 2023 [68 favorites]

I do not tell him about carrying a frame backpack with three of these batteries stacked on top of each other for several miles through forests.

Damn!
posted by TedW at 4:40 AM on August 5, 2023 [10 favorites]

Are men taught this? Or is it a natural inclination, given how our society is structured?

Either way, stop it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:09 AM on August 5, 2023 [19 favorites]

(This article is fucking awesome and really latches onto the accurate rage of this situation)
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:15 AM on August 5, 2023 [5 favorites]

This article just made me think about working on small engines with my dad, or working on a construction site, or loading a truck with 16 other dudes.

Men are socialized to do this for/to each other, too. Usually in male gendered occupations.

Million stories like this on a job site. Most of the time it will happen without words or minimal words, so if you are into communication, the communication is primarily physical/ non verbal.

Which is why when you try to talk to the person with words, it doesn't work, and seems like the person isn't listening. The communication style that would work is likely to be, to visibly take physical space, show leverage, show where your momentum is going. grab the bike and pull it back. body language. This can be violent and seem violent when people have different ideas of personal space, and people always do.

it s about a whole system of control, as well as personal control. When it works, it can be fast and educational. This style is really for situations where you have 7 to 20 people who don't know each others names but have to decide what to do quickly, all working together on the same physical task, like loading a truck with heavy but delicate equipment. Many of these jobs are very gendered. The re-education of men in the value of this communication style is happening daily.

It doesn't work a lot of the time, and then throw gender into it and cue disaster.

If anyone ever recorded job sites, it would be funny. someone usually says out loud "ok, but don't break Y by doing X", and then someone breaks whatever it is by doing X. The communication is not happening verbally.

Men need to be taught that what works mechanically on a job site with 10 people watching and thinking and ready to move, so you need to move first, is not what works in a one on one personal situation.
posted by eustatic at 6:15 AM on August 5, 2023 [19 favorites]

Men are socialized to do this for/to each other, too. Usually in male gendered occupations.

It's completely different when men do it to women. The power differential is different. Man to man, it could be insulting.

Man to woman, it's patronizing at best, and threatening at worse. It's erasing. It aims to diminish the woman, negate her.

Damn. She said it all so much better than me. Worth a dozen readings, if I can stomach the rage.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:21 AM on August 5, 2023 [39 favorites]

Another thing I learned from my dad, is that the one who moves first also needs a second, an assist, who is waiting to move to help without being asked. You can always at least be holding a flashlight and a rag and the extra wrench.

On the job site this is a must. If you are not the one who is called to move, you watch the first and then be ready to assist if in position.

So, in a one on one, there can also be a kind of resentment developed from the first if the other person isn't moving to assist, but just sits there watching.

Now that I'm older, I'm often the first, and I get salty when my dad doesn't move to assist me, like I was always taught to move for him. Lol.
posted by eustatic at 6:28 AM on August 5, 2023 [12 favorites]

I'm okay with ignoring people who look like they need help. It's on them to ask for assistance.
posted by SPrintF at 6:37 AM on August 5, 2023 [6 favorites]

I liked the essay (and yes, the rest of the blog is much more NSFW, I would not want to click on this on my work computer).

It's always good to offer help (when you can, it feels safe, you have something to offer, etc.) but it's also important to accept a "no thanks, I'm good" and move on with no drama. Don't argue with the person about it, and definitely don't do what she describes, of just grabbing and shoving yourself into the middle of things.

It is possible to imagine some kind of edge case where the person says 'no thanks" but you can see there is something very unsafe happening, so further discussion/intervention might be appropriate, but those are genuinely edge cases that aren't what the essay is describing.

In terms of the job site comparison, what she is describing is the equivalent of how when there is a woman working on a job site, a certain number of guys are inevitably going to to do the same insulting "hey sweetie, let me show you how to hammer a nail" despite that not being wanted or needed.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:47 AM on August 5, 2023 [13 favorites]

I am male. In certain fields, I am, um, handy. I'm sorry. If someone looks to be having difficulties, and I have the time and inclination, I will usually offer to help. But - message received - I offer first.

This usually works out. Just two weeks ago, I helped a woman - after asking - to unjam her bike chain. I resisted the deep primal urge to re-align the rear derailleur on the spot, instead suggesting that she should get it serviced. Her bike looked new and was probably under warranty. Anyway, it took like 2 minutes, it was all pleasant and she seemed grateful for the help.

I'm also very aware that sometimes, no good deed goes unpunished, so I'm OK with not always offering to help, or having my offer refused.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:00 AM on August 5, 2023 [17 favorites]

> Fuck you. Get away from me. Fuck you. Get your hands off me.

> Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you.

VS

> I kept going because I genuinely couldn’t bring myself to be rude. I didn’t want to upset him!

> he seems to really care and it feels rude to push him away when he really wants to help me!
posted by betaray at 7:03 AM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

My boyfriend is a wonderful guy but I had to tell him to stop fucking telling me when to change lanes. If I miss the turn or the exit, that's on me, but in the meantime you are ruining my focus. I'm more likely to fuck up when you do that.

(And he stopped)
posted by emjaybee at 7:08 AM on August 5, 2023 [32 favorites]

Another top tip: if you ask whether I need help, and I say no, please don't hover around behind me and stare over my shoulder while I finish the job, presumably because you're waiting for me to realise that I do indeed need help. That's creepy. Go away.
posted by quacks like a duck at 7:10 AM on August 5, 2023 [41 favorites]

I was on a road trip with my girlfriend in 2001 which took me across I-10 between LA and Phoenix, which is a slight incline for many miles in punishingly high heat, and my car overheated, which it had done on the same route previously. So I pulled under an overpass to let the engine cool down in the shade. We're standing outside of the car with the hood up in order to let the heat dissipate. And, of course, some dude pulls over and offers to help.

"That's kind of you, but we're good, this is just something that happens."

He did not get the memo and began to grow insistent and agitated that we didn't want his help. Eventually he left in a huff. It was extremely off-putting.

More recently, I was on a run with a bunch of guys from my running group and we ran past a woman with a bike problem, not dissimilar to the story from TFA. All of the other dudes stopped to "help" her. I got extremely annoyed, because 1) she probably didn't need their help and 2) I got up at the ass crack of dawn to run, not mansplain. I ended up just leaving them all and running by myself.

Dudes, man. Just stop.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:17 AM on August 5, 2023 [30 favorites]

Really interesting, eustatic. Surely at least a bit dependent on area, family, and work culture, and for at least some people it's more sexism than anything else....but I love this explanation. It makes sense (i want people to make sense and not be sexist! Even if they're still being really really irritating!)

My manual-laboring husband agrees, that's what it's like. He adds that a certain degree of emotional intelligence is helpful in knowing how much and what kind of help a person might appreciate, especially when it's outside his specific job & expertise. He gave an example of the mechanic doing a quick fix on his equipment: he said the mechanic didn't expect him to actively help, because he's not a mechanic and he's not THE mechanic. But the mechanic is older and my husband knows how your eyes get, so he used his phone flashlight to help out, which was appreciated. He said for another, younger mechanic he didn't know well, he'd be less likely to shine a light without asking because it could be unwanted.

I thought it was interesting that he was already, immediately in the role of assistant even if he didn't need to do anything. He also didn't ask if light would be appreciated, he just saw it could help and did it. Which is illuminating (harhar)... occasionally I'm like, why the heck are you standing here watching me, go do something else for the love of all that is holy. It is far less irritating to know that he's likely subconsciously in ready-to-assist mode while respecting that I'm capably doing my thing.
posted by Baethan at 7:18 AM on August 5, 2023 [23 favorites]

Perfectly reasonable and well-meaning people can make perfect sense, given socialization and work culture and such... and be hella sexist.
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:24 AM on August 5, 2023 [22 favorites]

If anthropologists aren't studying non-verbal communication on worksites, they should be.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:28 AM on August 5, 2023 [13 favorites]

My daughter told me that very often when she’s out using her electric wheelchair and stopped at an intersection waiting for the signal, some guy will try to help her cross. No thank you, she’ll say. Still they want to “help” (it’s fucking ELECTRIC how are you going to help?) and some of them start asking her personal questions. One guy wanted to touch her feet.
What the fuck is wrong with dudes.
posted by chococat at 7:29 AM on August 5, 2023 [20 favorites]

I locked my keys in my car once and, as I was in no hurry and it was a nice day, decided to see if I could break into my own car with a coat hanger.

Every few minutes a guy would walk over and ask if I needed help. At first I said no, I was having fun trying and had AAA if it didn’t work. But after awhile I started asking “Do you know how to do this?”.

None of them did! Not a single one! They just assumed they could and wanted to try. I let one guy try and stood and watched him fail for a minute before he gave up and said it wasn’t going to work. Since he had come out of an office building where he’d been watching me through his window I really hope he was still watching a few minutes after he left when I got it open.
posted by lepus at 7:30 AM on August 5, 2023 [76 favorites]

Manual-laboring-husband's job sounds a lot like nursing. Standing there ready to lend a hand is half a nurse's job. Since we've got an audience, the non-verbals are incredibly important. I've had entire conversations with my coworkers with only my eyes trying to clean up a patient.
posted by betaray at 7:35 AM on August 5, 2023 [23 favorites]

I fail to see what bearing men’s interactions between each other in a context where they are being paid and expected to work together on a task for which their being hired to perform the task gives everyone some indication that they have relevant expertise has on women’s experiences of men butting in completely without any sort of request or mandate, as complete strangers, with not even the minimal guarantee of having been hired to perform a given task, and against the multiply-stated wishes of the woman to whom they are offering their “help”.
posted by eviemath at 7:37 AM on August 5, 2023 [75 favorites]

"Everything OK?"

That's it. Two words. If you're wondering if a woman needs help, you can ask this, loudly because you haven't walked up close enough to her that she'd have to wonder if you're a threat.
Any response in the affirmative means you get on with your day. Your conversation has concluded. You are a good person.
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:38 AM on August 5, 2023 [63 favorites]

Also like how many men are employed in blue collar labor jobs, 10%? Exclude alll of them from the conversation and this phenomenon exists who who gives a shit about what happens on a job site.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:39 AM on August 5, 2023 [18 favorites]

As an introverted asshole I'm perfectly fine helping nobody until they ask me.
posted by Pendragon at 7:39 AM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

Worksites with specialized workers is a distinct case. Every worker, male or female, should be in tune with what's going on, and have a good understanding of what's required and when. It's not a social tea or a debating society; the competent worker should know their role and the demands of most tasks, and how to accomplish them with the minimum of direction. So yeah, workplace culture doesn't really pertain to the discussed situation.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:43 AM on August 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

"Everything OK?"

Exactly the phrase I use, usually from a distance of two metres or more. The phrase "do you need help?" I only use when it looks like there is imminent danger or blood.

Anyway, if people don't want help, they don't want help.
posted by antiwiggle at 7:47 AM on August 5, 2023 [9 favorites]

Asking if someone needs help is great. Helping them when they ask is great.

As a woman, the amount of times a man has offered help and been WRONG: oh, so many.

The number of times I’ve asked for help and been treated like shit, or, my absolute favorite because it was at work and an on-going pattern, as if I was trying to get them to do my work for me instead of actually just asking for advice in an area they were more experienced in, or an extra hand for a task that was impossible for one person to handle: incalculable.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 7:51 AM on August 5, 2023 [16 favorites]

(dear mods, thank you for taking the mansplaining about men out of this thread)
posted by Dashy at 7:58 AM on August 5, 2023 [11 favorites]

Many a time have I given a man a stoney stare and said "Did I ask for your help?"

Maybe I'll get a reputation for being difficult but I'm not here to make them feel good about themselves. It's up there with telling mansplainers "Let's assume I know what I'm doing."
posted by fiercekitten at 8:09 AM on August 5, 2023 [9 favorites]

I like it when anyone offers to help, even if I don’t need help. Community, social interaction, maybe I’ll learn something I didn’t know. I’m old, very secure in my abilities and all too aware of those things I’m not very good at doing.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:10 AM on August 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

So enragingly familiar I could only skim it. Thank you.
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:14 AM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

I have had people lash out because I didn't offer help. Example - a husband and wife were attempting to approach and dock their motorboat with a breakwall, while my partner and I were picnicking about 50 ft away. We're boaters ourselves; we often do try to offer to help one another dock/undock. But this guy looked testy already when making his approach, barking orders at his wife. (Unfortunately just too common a situation in boating; my wife retrained me pretty quickly). Pass. Others did eventually help. Guy wanders over to me and hisses "Thanks for your help".

Of note - this guy never asked for help, yet went out of his way to confront me for not providing it. Hmmm.

(the etiquette required in helping catch a stranger's docking boat is a fraught subject, maybe worthy of a PhD thesis)
posted by Artful Codger at 8:22 AM on August 5, 2023 [22 favorites]

The whole "socialized to be ready to wordlessly assist on a jobsite" thing really doesn't explain the scads of men who feel utterly compelled to offer useless, unsolicited advice on the internet.
posted by kyrademon at 8:30 AM on August 5, 2023 [32 favorites]

For anyone who hasn't experienced this friendly "help" before: it's not men offering to assist, or hold the torch, or do something actually useful. It's men who want to take over and do the whole job, and have the woman stand and watch. Sometimes while clearly having less knowledge of the task than the person they are trying to help.

I'll wager you don't see men on job sites doing this to each other.
posted by quacks like a duck at 8:38 AM on August 5, 2023 [48 favorites]

This piece of writing is not about people generally asking for help. It is a sexist situation.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:38 AM on August 5, 2023 [14 favorites]

I’ve been thinking about this and talking with my wife recently about our different experiences with this. We got into talking about how men in our mainstream culture are socialized to display competence, which seems an important part of this need to “help” a stranger - something sometimes threatening in her experience and merely highly irritating in mine. We got into how at least a portion of this show of competence comes from the other side too - that we can know and solve our own problems is a piece of the reaction - no, I CAN fix my bike situation, thanks.

We did agree that the “helper” in most cases was using the power differential to to boost their own feedback response of “I helped someone today! I am a good person!” (the power dynamic In my wife’s case gender, in mine it’s often that I physically show as book-nerd while I actually am quite handy. Interestingly, she’s also quicker to ask for help, which is it’s own intelligence in knowing when to do). It had a weird crystallization for me when I was hospitalized earlier this year. During my recovery, everyone wanted to help with every little thing, and I needed to show that I was doing just fine, thank you, and everyone who does not live here may kindly find the door (but of course I can’t say this because they’re only “trying to help.”)

The other day, I was getting a large box out of the car when a stranger walking by asked to help. I said, “No thanks, I got it!” “It seems pretty big.” “Yeah, but it’s more manageable with one person.” “Here, let me get this side.” “No, really.” “Here” (grabs the box and starts lifting). “OK, let’s just set in on the ground.” NO - insisted on grabbing the other side and taking it up the walk and and stairs and insist on taking it INSIDE MY HOUSE. Incredibly insulting and violating. Does it make it different that it was a woman older than me instead of a big sweaty Trumper? No. Should it? My wife says she would have called a neighbor before letting them in the house; maybe I didn’t feel as threatened per se because of my gender? But I absolutely hated that. Our friend in Norway says in can very commonly be seen as an insult to anyone to offer help; I would imagine this could also be related to everyone’s need to show competence as both an outward display to others and a confidence/ego boost in one’s own abilities.
posted by transient at 8:39 AM on August 5, 2023 [18 favorites]

Sorry, all. I'm really fascinated that "jumping in to help or take over without asking or being asked" is expected and wanted behavior in certain arenas. I learned a neat thing about how my manual labor guy's mind works which is super exciting!

But in my interest and excitement, I unintentionally glossed over what this thread is really about: women experiencing men "jumping in to help or take over because I believe I know better than you". Which is an unbelievably enraging thing without a convenient fix and there needs to be space to vent.

I love--maybe NEED--to fix problems and so badly want reasons and practical solutions. But reading everyone's experiences and recalling my own... yeah no, it's completely enraging and there are no legal fixes for some things.

I'm particularly remembering "the shushening". He shushed me. He should not have done that. (I did not do anything illegal but that's probably 'cause I was too shocked.)
posted by Baethan at 9:08 AM on August 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

I think it's true that men also mansplain (or aggressively offer help) to each other, not just women. I also think it's a different dynamic when they do it to women...somewhere on a spectrum between "well-intentioned but overbearing" and "actively trying to patronize".

Anecdote: I'm loading a small desk into my van.
two men walking by: ....need some help with that?
me: nope I got it
two men: [scoff incredulously]
me: [shoves desk into van]
SCENE
posted by daisystomper at 9:08 AM on August 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

I had a related experience recently. I happened to be wearing a dress when I went to Whole Foods - big parking lot, lots of people. Sadly, I'm pretty sure that, at nearly six feet tall, my attire contributed to what happened later. When I came out, I saw that my tire was flat. It's been a long time since I've installed a donut, but I got out the manual and tried to do it all right.
Over half a dozen people asked if I was okay. The men in particular were rather insistent that perhaps I needed help. Some of them more than they should be.
As a trans woman, I of course found this mildly affirming; I've rarely had the situation arise for me so far in my life. At the same time, I was analyzing it from a feminist perspective and was rather distressed at the social dynamic.
Then things turned rather more embarassing; I realized I made a mistake on the jack positioning (darned diagram in the Toyota manual was rather misleading!). Just at that moment, a guy came by and offered his assistance. This time, I took him up on it.
Even more ironic is that, while he got the jack fixed, I realized he was going to tighten the nuts while the tire was in the air, and I had to - oh so carefully to avoid insulting his abilities - suggest he lower it first.
He did! In the end, he changed my tire, and that was that.
Nice positive example of how to handle it, I think: He *asked*, from a distance, waited for my consent, and then, when he made a mistake, took my advice to get it right. Bonus, admittedly low bar for just being a decent human being: he simply accepted my thanks and headed on his way after.
There's hope. Our society can learn to do it right.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:16 AM on August 5, 2023 [49 favorites]

I was on my way from my wedding rehearsal to the rehearsal dinner (women! In dresses!) when the jeep my parents rented got a flat. A dude pulled over on his moped to take care of that for us (while I was checking the manual on how to change the flat, since it was an unfamiliar car and I didn't want to damage it).

when he finally gave up, after going and getting a fucking rock to put the jack on ("I don't think that's how that's supposed to work") because the suspension on a jeep is not like other fucking vehicles (which was pretty clear pretty fast when the body kept going up, but not the wheel), he drove off. And we successfully managed by... Following the instruction in the manual.

Dude probably cost us half an hour because he had this white knight narrative in his head that he persisted with despite increasingly obvious cues that that was not how this story was going down.
posted by DebetEsse at 9:18 AM on August 5, 2023 [15 favorites]

I also think it's a different dynamic when they do it to women...somewhere on a spectrum between "well-intentioned but overbearing" and "actively trying to patronize".

I agree, it varies. All across the sexist spectrum.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:19 AM on August 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

You guys do get that by coming in an offering explanations about why men do it you're basically doing the thing the article was complaining about right? It's a pretty bad look.

Anyway, we have a saying in my house "it's not helping if the other person doesn't want it".
posted by Gygesringtone at 9:38 AM on August 5, 2023 [49 favorites]

I'm a woman, or at least perceived as one, and I work in construction now.

Trust me, "men do this to other men too" is a bad take. It's true that men will explain things to each other, but the here is the thing that makes it different: They assume a higher baseline of competence of other men than they do me. Their explanations are more frequent and more patronizing.

They also prefer assistance from other men. If I try to explain something to them in return, they don't really know how to handle it, because that's not how they perceive me. It doesn't matter if I'm better at a specific task than they are. They have slotted me into a subordinate, learner role in their minds.

My experience working with women was very different, where knowledge sharing was more collaborative and peer-to-peer than hierarchical. No, it's not like 100% of men or 100% of women are this way, but it's a very DIFFERENT experience working with mostly women versus mostly men. I'm frustrated to see people try to minimize this phenomenon because they can't see it themselves.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:42 AM on August 5, 2023 [54 favorites]

Mod note: Comment removed. Gentlemen, please hang back and listen to the women, it’s an issue that is particularly important.

This doesn’t mean men can’t speak in this thread, but please make it thoughtful and supportive of the issue brought up in the post, thanks!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:16 AM on August 5, 2023 [32 favorites]

There's a post going around Tumblr (I know) talking about this kind of thing for disability, which has its own problematic dynamics around who's able to do things and who isn't. The post describes this non-helping "helping" as hleping, because it looks like helping but it's not. As a woman with disabilities who needs help and gets hlep sometimes, I see the parallels clearly.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:03 AM on August 5, 2023 [39 favorites]

Anyway, we have a saying in my house "it's not helping if the other person doesn't want it".
We call that 'halping.' Or, since the age of Jorts, 'buttering the cat.' Like gentlyepigrams says, I've seen 'hleping' too. It's obviously a fairly pervasive problem!

As a small, wheelchair-using, woman-looking person I have had to get so good at managing cat-butterers. It's frustrating, because the truth is sometimes I do need help, and when people step up in the right way it can be a day changer. People who offer respectfully and let me direct them as to how to actually be helpful are remembered fondly, each and every one. But there are way too many halpers out there.
posted by BlueNorther at 11:08 AM on August 5, 2023 [27 favorites]

It's frustrating, because the truth is sometimes I do need help, and when people step up in the right way it can be a day changer.

I think the fundamental difference for me is the respect and agency that the potential helper grants you. To be blunt, men often don't perceive women as peers; able-bodied people often don't perceive disabled people as peers. The man or the able-bodied person presumes that they know best--that the other person is less competent than them. Not just in terms of skill or ability, but in knowing when they need help, and what kind of help they need. A "thank you, but I've got it" isn't heeded because they know better than you.

This is what kind of infuriates me about the "men do this to each other on job sites" comments above. If offer help to my coworker and he says "no", it can actually be dangerous for me to attempt to help anyway. I might throw off his grip on that heavy thing he's carrying, jostle the board he's sawing, etc. Men on jobsites generally know better than to do this, and if they haven't learned it yet, they get yelled at.

But when it comes to someone that is presumed to be less competent because of their gender, their national origin, their disability status--a "rescue" mentality takes over. The person believes they're being helpful, but what they're doing is acting out a social hierachy that lives in their heads.

Even when you do need help sometimes (as we all do), this kind of constant presumption of incompetence can be incredibly demoralizing and frustrating.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:33 AM on August 5, 2023 [32 favorites]

Some kind of help is the kind of help that helping's all about,
And some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without
posted by Daily Alice at 11:37 AM on August 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

Regardless of the masculine nuances on (some) work sites, from what I read in the article I really doubt much fancier bike guy came from that background. Seems more likely he considers himself above the blue collars crowd as well.

Anyway, her “No thank you” should have been the end of it. Though maybe a sincere, “Okay, good luck” might have led to a different blog post.
posted by house-goblin at 12:29 PM on August 5, 2023

Another top tip: if you ask whether I need help, and I say no, please don't hover around behind me and stare over my shoulder while I finish the job, presumably because you're waiting for me to realise that I do indeed need help. That's creepy. Go away.
posted by quacks like a duck at 9:10 AM on August 5 [14 favorites +] [!]

That's right, Clippy! (that's how we know Clippy's a guy)
posted by symbioid at 12:39 PM on August 5, 2023 [13 favorites]

The reason it triggered her is that it's the predator playbook of violating boundaries to try to manipulate you into a position where they can hurt you. There is no polite, socially acceptable way to fend off a predator. That's what they are counting on.

If they don't go as soon as you give them a hard stare and tell them to leave it alone, they can be presumed evil.

Honestly, often the best way to handle it is to pull out your phone and call someone and tell them there is a guy harassing you. Sometimes it works to tell them they are being creepy though.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:43 PM on August 5, 2023 [32 favorites]

Some years back, I was walking up a busy university-adjacent street toward a Starbucks, wondering whether I should buy a quarter pound of their dismally dark lightest roast whole beans in case the the coffee I had ordered was not waiting for me on the porch as I hoped, and when I got to the Starbucks, which had a bus stop right in front of it, a car screeched to a stop in the loading zone.

The driver jumped out of the car and grabbed a woman waiting for the bus, dragging her toward the car as she screamed 'No!, No!, I’m not coming back there no matter what you do!'.

I grabbed her shoulder a few inches above where he was holding her arm, and with my other hand I grabbed his wrist, squeezed hard, and was able to wrest her away from him, and he stumbled and fell back against his car.

She disappeared behind me, he came forward again and I thought he was going to punch me, but a couple of other men who had also been waiting for the bus stepped up on either side of me, his face changed, and he ran back to the driver's side of the car and got back in.

But he didn’t immediately pull out, and my stomach dropped down somewhere below my knees as I pictured him rummaging around for a gun, but one of the men who had stepped forward, a very young and naive-looking freshman or sophomore I thought, stepped into the street kind of goofing and standing on one leg, turned around and said 'we helped that woman! That was awesome!'.

But he was only a few feet behind the car, so I felt compelled to grab him, and practically had to lift him back onto the sidewalk. A second or so after I did, the car backed through where he had been standing and took off.

I looked at the woman, who had backed into a corner of the Starbucks facade, very aware that she had not screamed for help as many people might have done, but she did not meet my eyes and had a look of fierce and smoldering anger on her face that made me reconsider apologizing for grabbing her the way I did.

Then all I wanted was to get out of there before the cops showed up, if anybody had bothered to call them, and that's exactly what I did.

I have always felt very ambivalent about this incident, and that night I didn’t mention it to my partner. Apart from all the other doubtful aspects of what I did, if he had had a gun, which was really the only reasonable presumption, I might have precipitated a true catastrophe.
posted by jamjam at 1:52 PM on August 5, 2023 [13 favorites]

Another related thing that I’ve been warned about as a guy is that if a woman asks “does anyone know a good mechanic/bike shop/electrician/tax expert/etc.” that is absolutely not your cue to volunteer your services, unless you are actually a trained professional.
posted by smelendez at 2:17 PM on August 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

jamjam, what an awful decision to make and an amazing thing to do. How does one know? There's not time to stop and ask politely. If he had a gun, you might have stopped a true catastrophe if he got her alone and shot her. At any rate, at least the woman wasn't abducted in front of a group of people that did nothing. That to me is significant.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:26 PM on August 5, 2023 [5 favorites]

That piece was really astonishing. The guy's persistence, his physical intimidation--can you imagine any man grabbing another man's bike without permission?

The few times men have helped me they've fucked it up anyway. They don't listen to your description of the problem or your dilemma, they just 'grab the bike' and off they go.

Being polite can get you killed if you're female. I taught my daughter to always trust her gut and it's more than fine to be a bitch about it. Better to offend than die.
posted by mygraycatbongo at 2:30 PM on August 5, 2023 [9 favorites]

jamjam: One of the first things they teach in a first-aid or first-responder course is that helping is a voluntary act. Most sensible countries indemnify individuals if they offer help and things go sideways, but still, it is a personal decision whether to help or not because it's always a risk, and it often takes courage to act. (so, bravo). Did you find yourself questioning your initial impulse, or ruminating how you could/should have followed up? eg check on the victim, record details of the car, call the police, provide witness, etc. And of course, just wtf was that all about: lovers' spat, or thwarted abduction?

I'm fortunate to live in a country where someone having a gun in their vehicle is statistically less likely.

Your experience is certainly a few shades darker than having some guy try to fix your bike without permission... as annoying as that clearly was. All relative, I guess.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:31 PM on August 5, 2023

I have a good friend who immediately demands a $20 Venmo payment if anyone gives unsolicited advice. For some reason people she knows keep doing it.
posted by brundlefly at 2:49 PM on August 5, 2023 [9 favorites]

Jamjam, your story, while compelling, is a White Knight kind of story and I'm struggling to see how it applies to the topic.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:50 PM on August 5, 2023 [8 favorites]

Absolutely fantastic, infuriatingly relatable. Thanks for sharing this.
posted by eirias at 2:54 PM on August 5, 2023

Something interesting in that piece I don't think we've brought up yet: the way she explains why she doesn't fix her own bike.

There's no need to justify it: it's fine to not be an all-around expert, it's fine to not be completely self-sufficient in every way. But in primarily or traditionally male spaces, I find myself explaining any lack of knowledge, skill, or experience just the same.

It's like a preemptive defense against a more general version of "well then you aren't a real fan, you don't really belong here", for me anyways. I was going to say traditionally female spaces are different... but for a lot of people this is no longer, or never was true.

It sounds like a lot of hlep comes from a basic belief that women can't truly belong in certain occupations. Sheesh, all ways of saying "you don't belong" are unpleasant (understatement), but taking something out of a person's hands while ignoring their "no"? Ayayay.
posted by Baethan at 3:39 PM on August 5, 2023 [9 favorites]

I've considered making a t-shirt that says "I'M NOT LOOKING FOR ADVICE TODAY" to wear to the archery range.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:53 PM on August 5, 2023 [33 favorites]

I once had a friend offer to fix my car's flat tire -- I had not asked at all for his help -- decline all of my offers to help, do it, and then accuse me of using him. Why are men this way?
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:55 PM on August 5, 2023 [6 favorites]

Anecdotally from my experience: when a complex incident suddenly happens in a group of strangers, those take-charge-guys are often the most incompetent, all loudly offering conflicting ill-informed advice in a dismal scrum.
posted by ovvl at 4:06 PM on August 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

I am very familiar with non-verbal communication and etiquette on jobsites but I think the mention of it is mostly wrong in this context, for three reasons.

First is that everyone who works that scene gets it when the context changes and changes their behaviour accordingly. Brought your own work into the factory on a Saturday? You're on your own unless you ask. Outside of work? It all switches off.

Second is that while non-verbal working is a huge part of working manually together, there's a lot of verbal communication around it. Seriously, heaps. These aren't people without language, tell them 'no' or 'stop' at work and they absolutely will. If they won't they won't be on site long.

Third is that mansplaining and mandoing can happen in these workplaces too, if there's patronising treatment of women on site it's probably not just a matter of mismatched communication off. I remember working with a woman of about 6' and a build clearly superior to mine yet she was the one getting asked if she was right with the lifts we were doing.
posted by deadwax at 4:09 PM on August 5, 2023 [10 favorites]

Something interesting in that piece I don't think we've brought up yet: the way she explains why she doesn't fix her own bike.

This stood out to me, too. Based on the first half I did not expect this, but I relate to the instinct to do it.
posted by arachnidette at 5:03 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

Adding to other wheelchair users comments: as a woman who uses a power wheelchair, I have had far too many experiences of people "helping" without asking, sometimes in ways that could have seriously injured me or broken my power wheelchair and left me stranded.

NEVER GRAB SOMEONE'S BODY OR THEIR WHEELCHAIR UNLESS ITS A TRUE EMERGENCY - for example, a true emergency is if they are toppling forwards down a bus wheelchair ramp or backwards down a bus wheelchair ramp.

A true emergency is NOT "they are moving a bit more slowly than I would like them to"

or "I feel like being 'helpful' "
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:09 PM on August 5, 2023 [20 favorites]

One of my least-proud moments was pulling into a gas station parking lot with a tire that was rapidly going flat. I got out my tire changin' tools and the full-size spare that I purposefully bought for my Chevy Cavalier (because it came with a stupid donut wheel and I was, at the time, driving on crappy rubber and figured I should spring for a rim and a full-size spare tire because if I had to jack the car up and change a tire, I wasn't gonna put no darn donut on.) and was all set when these nice men stepped up and were all "Do you need some help, ma'am?" And I was "Nah, I got this." and they were "Come on, you're in a dress. Let us help you." (I was in a machine-washable corduroy jumper. With sensible shoes.) So I handed over the tools and let them get on with it. They ROLLED MY CAR OFF THE JACK. (Oops, looks like someone forgot the parking brake.) It would have been faster to do it myself.

I should have stood up for myself more. I should have insisted that I didn't need help.
posted by which_chick at 5:31 PM on August 5, 2023 [5 favorites]

Jamjam, your story, while compelling, is a White Knight kind of story and I'm struggling to see how it applies to the topic.

You fail utterly to understand the implications of my story, tiny frying pan, which are that my well-intentioned and seemingly justified intervention probably would have resulted in a severe injury to an innocent young man except for a lucky, chancy escape, and could have resulted in something much worse than that if certain fairly likely circumstances which a reasonable person could have anticipated had in fact been in place.

Moreover, the victim showed no signs of appreciating what I did, and I have no indisputable reason to believe it actually did her any good in the long run.
posted by jamjam at 5:35 PM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

Oh ok, it was meant to illustrate that you shouldn't have helped? I guess the extreme nature of the story threw me off since I was thinking about the article where the stakes were low (broken bike, no fear or fear of injury). All kinds of things happen when emotions are flying that high and fast, and I wouldn't blame you at all for reacting quickly and stepping in! To me, it's when the stakes are low and men still insist on helping, that's the actual phenomenon here.

Sorry for misreading!
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:56 PM on August 5, 2023

(I also didn't grok immediately that the man in your story was innocent - the situation sounded genuinely scary as if the woman was being abducted (wtf was happening there for real) so I probably did not imagine the scene correctly). I wouldn't blame you at all for jumping in.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:59 PM on August 5, 2023

In my opinion, you actually succumbed to the romantic allure of the White Knight narrative yourself, tin frying pan.
posted by jamjam at 6:02 PM on August 5, 2023

Well that's more than a little uncharitable, after I tried to clarify my thinking after your reply, and apologized, but ok.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:05 PM on August 5, 2023 [12 favorites]

(The innocent man in jimjam’s story was the helper who was so delighted with himself that jimjam needed to pull him out of the road so he wouldn’t be backed over.)
posted by clauclauclaudia at 6:35 PM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

The driver jumped out of the car and grabbed a woman waiting for the bus, dragging her toward the car as she screamed 'No!, No!, I’m not coming back there no matter what you do!'.

This was the situation that seems worth stepping in on, high stakes, and what I meant about stepping in because of how scary it was.

Anyway, sorry to derail further.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:39 PM on August 5, 2023

Yes, what about the men? And how the men feel about the men? Maybe a man can come explain.
posted by Dashy at 6:59 PM on August 5, 2023 [23 favorites]

Sorry if I offended. Nothing I wrote was meant as a "take," just a personal commitment toward establishing a norm that

"It is not okay for men to "help" women who they don't know without asking consent/permission first"

In spaces where that is not a norm. Good luck to all.
posted by eustatic at 7:12 PM on August 5, 2023

Jamjam, your story, while compelling, is a White Knight kind of story and I'm struggling to see how it applies to the topic.

For what it’s worth, tiny frying pan, that’s how I read it too.
posted by kat518 at 7:17 PM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

I should have stood up for myself more
which_chick, I think it's important not to blame yourself in these situations. I could second-guess myself so much about interactions when I've given in - and yes, often to men (work interactions can be terrible that way, even with men who knew me pre-transition).

I also wanted to say that while my experience with the flat tire was pretty okay, it was during the day, in a crowded parking lot, in broad daylight.

I would not have felt okay if the same man had gotten that close to help me on a remote roadside, or at night.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 7:27 PM on August 5, 2023

This was so well put and horrifying. I can’t even fathom someone taking the wheel off your bike without permission- let alone when you say no - that’s just shocking to me. I’m not sure whether I’m just really lucky or really good at saying no, because all of my experiences around this have been me being the one offering to help someone. And I do generally ask twice, because people are socially conditioned to say no, especially when the help needed would be difficult or time-consuming. I always take the second no for an answer and leave it at that, but I can definitely relate to the feeling of wanting to press the help when it’s an easy thing to fix (she’s barely juggling 12 things in her hands in the store and I have one thing in my basket- I can give her my basket and grab another why won’t she let me give her my basket?). So I’m sure some of that is what’s going through these guys’ heads. But sheesh, no means no no matter how easy the fix would be, and the other person’s feelings outweigh your own - and that’s without bringing in all the sexual power dynamics where you’re stuck being either a damsel in distress or a bitch once you’re targeted as needing help. Helping isn’t helpful if it’s weaponized. It’s definitely making me rethink whether I should be asking a second time, and I’m a small woman-person.

Though I have to admit that if I saw the poster upthread trying to get her car door unlocked with a hanger I’d probably ask a second time to confirm, because I’ve always wanted to try that and being the one to do it would be awesome… I’d still take no for an answer (of course), but that one might have a tiny bit of edge case to it…
posted by Mchelly at 7:32 PM on August 5, 2023

Anyone with access to a car could try it. Open your driver's door, lock the passenger door and then go nuts trying to get the passenger door open.

Warning though that many cars can't be opened this way. And it is usually easier to insert an air bag to pry the door open and then use a skinny poker of some sort to either bump the power lock button or pull on a door handle.
posted by Mitheral at 7:56 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

I spent some time traveling and joined some online groups of women who camp in various ways. It's really common for women to be unable to reverse a vehicle with a trailer, a counter-intuitive skill that requires a fair bit of practice. I visited a friend driivng a truck and camper. My friend's partner(male) insisted, hard, on reversing for me to the point that it felt awkward to say no. I kept reiterating, I'm sure you can do it better, but I want the practice. If I hadn't been sitting in the driver's seat, he'd have just done it. There are important skills women don't get because men won't let them.

When I was younger, I had a flat tire, wanted to go somewhere, asked my brother for help. He showed me how to change a tire by helping me do it. I am grateful for that every time I've had to change a tire. Now I'm in my 60s and call roadside assistance, but if you want to change the tire or jumpstart the battery, okay.
posted by theora55 at 8:50 PM on August 5, 2023 [27 favorites]

Offering help twice is pretty typical in my area, though you can usually tell if the first refusal is genuine through their word choice, tone, and body language. You don't ask again if they clearly refused. If the refusal was more of a polite sort of "I don't want to put you out" reluctance, a second offer with reassurance that it's no problem will be accepted, generally speaking. Local social rules may vary.

Of course, a successfully polite offer of help requires you to be capable of actually helping, to listen to what the person says (and how they say it), and to do nothing unless they accept. The hlepers are pretty much doing the opposite!

Though, in a context where the person is likely to have had their capability doubted because of who they are, I kind of instinctively am more conservative with offering help and quicker to err on the side of accepting the first refusal. I'm a woman but the last thing I want to do is be another person who seems to think they aren't capable. I think peripheral help ("can I get the doors for you?") is often best, as opposed to direct help ("can I carry that heavy thing for you?").
posted by Baethan at 10:16 PM on August 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

I once had a friend offer to fix my car's flat tire -- I had not asked at all for his help -- decline all of my offers to help, do it, and then accuse me of using him.

Oh, so you know Mitch too?

Why are men this way?

You know why. Those friendship coins didn’t result in sexing or boyfriending!
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:48 AM on August 6, 2023 [14 favorites]

This happens to me so often. More and more, I manage to refuse unwanted help; then I'm seen as unfriendly. I can live with that, it beats the alternative. But there are no good options here, there is no winning move when you're dealing with one of these dudes.

Men have tried to help me by 'steadying' my motorcycle 'for me', as I was either riding it slowly or peddling it with my feet, or walking next to it and pushing. Always from the back, always unasked, sometimes even unannounced. It's extremely unsettling if someone unexpectedly changes the angle of a motorcycle that you are balancing. It may very well throw me off balance and make me drop the bike. It's not an easy bike to lift.
In short, I have at times been rude to such men and have never regretted it.

Women should not beat themselves up over not managing to refuse help in a clear and possibly rude/unfriendly way; that's just years and years of socialization at work. At the same time, it's a good skill to acquire.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:10 AM on August 6, 2023 [15 favorites]

Woman blogging: I repeatedly told him that I did not need help.

Woman blogging: He literally began manhandling my bike despite my repeatedly telling him not to help me. He flat-out started touching and modifying my property without permission.

Woman blogging: Although I was furious, I did not say any of the furious things I'm writing here; I was overly polite, and even attempted to minimize the possible interpretation that I was being assertive or aggressive in any way.

Man reading woman's blog: Wow, it's pretty toxic of you to have such a negative perception of someone just because they're trying to help you. Have you considered these more positive and affirmative internal framings? Please consider that some men are raised to be innately helpful, it's a blessing not a curse! Many of us were raised in packs of wild nurses so fixing bicycles is just our primal instinct. But do you really think you're helping out by being so mean? Think of the young boy reading this who gets so traumatized that he never fixes a bike again. I mean, I'm not upset, but okay, hypothetically, what if this fake man who I invented who won the Nobel Prize for roadside assistance read your blog post and got upset because he felt like you weren't being grateful? By the way, I've fixed hundreds of women's bikes, have you checked the back spokes, I bet it's the back spokes, see when you ride a bicycle under certain conditions the back spokes have a tendency to
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:11 AM on August 6, 2023 [44 favorites]

The thing about why to decide to use bike shops: it’s a very easy choice to make when, like me and the author, you have reliable quick good access to at least one bike mechanic. I’ve also done the learning, but a guy whose job it is can help faster, and being helped when you have asked for it is also kind of a balm to this whole thing. The boundaries are great.
posted by lokta at 11:15 AM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]

I kayak a lot, and I do it alone. (Am middle aged cis woman.) Twice, men have watched me pick up my little green kayak with one arm, carry it a long way from the water on one shoulder--I like the practice, so I don't move my car closer--and then wait until I've got it positioned to push on top of my car to ask me if I need help.

One of them was parked directly next to me in a completely empty park, and he was wearing a suit. He jumped out of his car and tried to insist he could help. I had to tell him THREE TIMES that I was fine, and was mostly concerned that he was getting too close to me and there was no one else around. That one rattled me a little bit.

The other one, the parking lot was full of young fishermen, and THIS GUY, who was the oldest, most out of shape guy there, who had a fancy wheeled cart to carry his expensive kayak to the water, and had some device to get it on top of his car, he thought he had to offer to help me. I mean, was it his age? Because he obviously wouldn't be able to do it, and I obviously could. I was wearing all the gear! I was in the middle of doing it! How do they think I got it off the car in the first place? Do they think if they weren't there, I'd be waiting for someone to come by to help me? WTF

I just spent five hours kayaking around this lake by myself, but you think I need your help. But please don't watch me getting out of the kayak, because THAT is often embarrassingly awkward, and I sometimes end up on my knees in the water. Seriously, that's the hardest part.
posted by RedEmma at 11:52 AM on August 6, 2023 [21 favorites]

Whenever these kinds of topics come up, it seems there's always a small but vocal group who doesn't seem to grasp reasons vs excuses.

Socialized to help, masculine inclinations, nursey non-verbal communication, sure sure of course absolutely. All reasons why a certain kind of man is inclined to insert himself into a situation. But none of them are valid excuses for ignoring the repeated requests of a woman to back the fuck off, and bringing those reason topics up in this context feels like an attempt to excuse the behavior.

No. Recognize the reasons why you want to do what you want to do, but stop mistaking them for excuses to override anyone else's will or intention. Your gender or culture or socialization is never a valid excuse for behaving like an ass.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 12:22 PM on August 6, 2023 [39 favorites]

Conversely, somebody may be giving reasons and be mistaken as giving excuses.
posted by mellow seas at 1:56 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]

Naw, I think Two unicycles and some duct tape couldn't be more right on.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:49 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]

Should be using gorilla tape instead of duct tape, though. Way less likely to rip apart in a pothole bounce scenario. Here, I have some in my backpack. Lemme just grab one of those unicycles real quick and show you where to stick it. Honestly, it's no trouble.
posted by flabdablet at 3:13 PM on August 6, 2023 [7 favorites]

(I don't mean to be specifically accusatory toward anyone in the thread, though as ever you know, shoes, fits, &c. Mostly I was thinking of the people in my life over the years who have told me why they do or don't do a thing and seem to really believe in their heart of hearts that telling me why makes everything okay, like, I've told you why I do this thing right? I'm an x, or I was raised y, or I've always believed z, so... that's why, and the steady deadpan look that follows is your signal that you have to be okay with it, naturally, now that you understand how absolutely inevitable that course of action was given this new revelation, you must re-evaluate your own discomfort in the soothing light of this new exculpatory context and everything will of course be capital-O Okay, all is well and as it should be, this is just What We Do, and your part of What We Do, on the receiving end of What We Do, is just fucking accepting it. Or do you not respect my x? Or understand my y? Because if you did you would just accept it.)

(my part of What We Do, these days, is not fucking accepting it any more)
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 3:28 PM on August 6, 2023 [22 favorites]

The article made me think of a line from Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt that made me gasp the first time I saw it. It's Matt Lauer* interviewing the women after they escape, and he says, "I’m always amazed by what women will do because they’re afraid of being rude…" My child was about 10 when I heard that, and my safety talks thereafter included lines about not worrying about being impolite in these kinds of situations.

*With 10 years hindsight this quote takes on triple the ickiness.
posted by frecklefaerie at 3:35 PM on August 6, 2023 [9 favorites]

Flabdablet, don't you make me come over there...
posted by Mom at 4:56 PM on August 6, 2023 [6 favorites]

Oh here's another motorcycle story. I was on my way to visit my mom, a one hour and a half ride away, and noticed my gear pedal was a bit loose. So I went into a garage, which was for cars, but I figured they would have tools, and asked if they'd let me hold a #13 wrench for a moment.
There it was: Oh no, I'll do it for you, honestly it's no bother. I did not have the words to refuse. Nowadays I would go with Thanks, but I really prefer to do this myself, I've done this so often and these Russian motorcycles are a bit weird *. But I didn't. So the friendly mechanic tightened the bolt for me.
Of course, he did not tighten it enough and so, some time later, I lost the whole gear pedal AND the kickstarter (they were on the same axle). I found out when I rode into the city, wanted to shift back and could not. That was "fun".

I had a lot of trouble getting into the city without the bike stalling, then the next day visiting a motorcross store with my mom getting a pedal that sort of fit, then when it was time to leave we had to push start the bike (try push starting a 500 cc single cylinder twostroke, it's interesting) and then I rode home knowing that I would be unable to start the bike on my own. So I could not even stop for fuel. Somehow I made it home.
And then, of course, I had to shop for vintage Russian motorcycle parts. No bother, my ass.

* Even now I would blame the weird bike instead of implicating that the Helpful Man didn't know what he was doing. I mean, I needed that wrench. Gotta be polite!
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:01 AM on August 7, 2023 [9 favorites]

One time I was having trouble parallel parking in a tight-spot, and a middle-aged gentleman walking by politely asked "Do you want some help? I could teach you a trick I use when I'm parking, if you're interested" and this interaction has always stood out to me for how polite and non-invasive it was. He taught me the mirrors-to-gas-caps trick for parallel parking and it was great! I still use it. But he didn't get all up in my business, and I definitely felt like if I had declined, he wouldn't have insisted. As it should be.

Relatedly: My tire guy told me that he actively prefers to fix spare tires put on by amateur women. I was worrying I didn't tighten the nuts enough, and he was like "Eh, your tire won't fall off if you lose one nut, that's why there's five. Replacing those is nothing. It's WAY more of a problem when these guys who don't know what they're doing get all macho and overtighten the nuts and strip the bolts. A woman comes in and says she changed it herself, I know my job's gonna run a lot smoother."
posted by Nibbly Fang at 6:12 AM on August 7, 2023 [6 favorites]

Ha. The flip side of this: I (female) was once at work, and one of my male colleagues was selling a bike and had brought it into the office for the new owner to collect from there. He walked past me, asked the two men in the office if they knew how to put a back wheel on a bike, because he'd taken it off to fit it in the car, and couldn't get it back on. Neither of them did. He walked back past me towards his bike.

I said very loudly: "Rod, would you like me to help you?"

He stopped and, at least had the sense to say straight away: "Oh, shit, how sexist am I? Yes, please."

I took such pleasure at putting his wheel back on his bike for him, only interrupted by him repeatedly saying "Oh be careful, it's oily," because he hadn't apparently learned that you can wash oil off your hands after fixing a bike.
posted by penguin pie at 8:33 AM on August 7, 2023 [16 favorites]

Some other things:

Stay put when you ask the question....do NOT walk towards them as you do so.

Don't whine that you're "just trying to be friendly" or throw a manbaby tantrum when you're told no.
posted by brujita at 9:56 AM on August 7, 2023 [8 favorites]

There’s a tumblr quote / screen grab going around my social feed (I tried searching for the source to link but can’t find it, and I’m finding a few different people claiming credit) that basically says that the traditional skills that men are supposed to have are mostly all things that only come up for specific situations, like changing a tire and fixing home and car problems, while the traditional skills expected of women are things that have to be done every day and always, like cooking, cleaning, and childcare. So “men’s” assumed areas of expertise are things that are generally fairly rare and one-and-done, while “women’s” are constant. And when a woman doesn’t know how to change a tire or fix a plumbing issue, she’s belittled for it even though it might not come up more than once or twice in a decade - while some men who “can’t” do traditionally female tasks well will actually brag about it, even though they’ve seen and benefited from those skills (and at least occasionally suffered for the lack of them) their whole lives.

And it’s gotten me thinking of all the times that men I’ve known have flailed helplessly at the stove or the washing machine or the office coffee maker and expected for a woman to come and rescue them by stepping in and outright doing the thing for them. That on some level they’re hoping for a mommy figure to come say “do you need help?” and then taking over the task because they ‘couldn’t possibly’ do it as well. So I’m wondering if this is the flip side of that. Stay in your lane, little lady, I’ll handle this… because I need to live in the world where you handle my needs.
posted by Mchelly at 9:57 AM on August 7, 2023 [13 favorites]

It's WAY more of a problem when these guys who don't know what they're doing get all macho and overtighten the nuts and strip the bolts.

This tells me they were never taught, or bothered to learn, how to properly change a tire. Not over tightening is practically the first thing you should learn.

Also, these overconfident, don’t really know what they’re doing, dudes are a scourge upon damn near everybody.

See, your bolt and nuts story just dislodged an old memory of me (not female) on the side of the road with a flat. The lug nuts were stuck so I was waiting for the penetrating oil to do its job when my boss pulled up and offered to help.

He did provide a better tire iron, but it didn’t help. And that’s when the boss did something stupid despite my (obviously not strong enough) protests. Basically, a “NO, THAT’S A BAD IDEA, YOU CAN TWIST THE BOLT OFF EVEN IF YOU DON’T DO WHAT YOU’RE ABOUT TO DO,” is not what I said moment.

The bad idea was standing on the tire iron and, yes, he broke the bolt off. Then he did it again (AND I LET HIM!). Then he admitted defeat, drove off, and shortly thereafter, as I said at the start, penetrating oil and some patience were proven the solution. Note: not going macho on a frozen lug nut is another tire changing basic.

But wait, the ordeal continues as the mechanic I went to, to replace the bolts, didn’t really know what he was doing either. Guy couldn’t get the brake drum off, charged me almost $200, and midway through his failed effort called me over to point out a hairline crack on the face of the drum. And what I didn’t say was, “GEE, THINK THAT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH USING THE OXY/ACETYLENE TORCH AND BASHING IT REPEATEDLY WITH A HEAVY BALL PEEN HAMMER?”

The happy ending is that a few days later, in a different town, I went to a different mechanic who got the drum off within five minutes and didn’t even charge me.

So, yeah, I can empathize with the stories here. Also, they should remain the focus (apologies in advance if this prompts a round of dudely derails). Even if these hlep-men force will force themselves on anybody they can, it seems obvious they do it way way more to women.
posted by house-goblin at 4:29 PM on August 7, 2023

Oh no, I'll do it for you, honestly it's no bother.

It may be another way men are overly "helpful" to women but this is not the same as the linked article.

The mechanics in a shop generally own their own tools, they aren't provided by the shop.

An artisans tools are literally their life. They depend on them to pay their bills and buy food. Nikola Tesla himself could come ask me for the loan of a professional electrical tool and I'd say no because random people off the street can not be trusted to take proper care. They are likely to use a wrench as a hammer or prybar or something. Drop it in a storm sewer, return it dirty or just not return it at all. Whatever the abuse you are out the use of the tool before you replace it, the time to make the money to buy a replacement if needed¹ (if you even can, I have tools in my bag for which exact replacements are no longer made), and the time needed to procure a replacement.

So they only a few options when someone comes and asks to borrow a tool:

• Loan them the tool hoping the whole time they get it back in the shape it was lent even though past experience would lead them to think there is a good chance they won't.
• Give them a brush off "I don't lend out my tools" or similar. But the asker has already put them on the spot by asking. If they didn't need the tool they wouldn't have asked. One feels obligated to help them even though their ask is unreasonable.
• Offer to address the issue for a fee but that's a bit extreme for a few minutes work and may not be the business they are in.
• Direct the asker to the nearest location they could buy the tool. Which is just a fancied up second option.
• Offer to just use the tool for free to address the askers issue. However incompetently that may be.²

I've taken the latter tact on many occasions when someone has come to me asking for the loan of a tool (the free work part not, I hope, the incompetent part). I'd like to think irregardless of the gender presentation of the asker but probably not if I was critical of every interaction I've had like that. Going forward I should treat this as one of those situations where clear affirmative consent should be sought. Ask if they would like to have my assistance in this specific way stressing no financial obligation attaches and only proceed if an unambiguous yes is given rather than depending on potentially ambiguous statements or body language. Or just go with the second option and fall back on "Sorry that won't be possible". Seems like I learn nuances of how to interact with people from Metafilter everyday.

[1] Professional tools are often several multiples more expensive than homeowner tools. The water pump pliers in my everyday tool bag for example cost $79.99 verses $27.99 for even a good brand of consumer quality pliers. And my pliers aren't even all that expensive; a set of (smaller) PROTOs retails for $183.86. I'd have to work for almost three hours to replace the Knipex set.

[2] It's not really for free. Assuming the mechanic wasn't kicking back with a beer at the end of the day doing this "quick" job means they weren't doing a paying job and most mechanics are working piece work; the more work they do during a work day the more they get paid. Working for free during that time is actively taking money out of their pocket to give to charity. They have also incurred liability that while probably not actionable most places can create the sort of squeaky wheel situation that can consume time and attention wildly disproportionate to the actual service provided. This is enough of a problem that when I worked at a place with a lot of snow, and where our clients often had minimal experience driving in snow, our company required us to get people to sign a damage waiver before we could spend a couple minutes tugging them out of whatever ditch/snowbank/moderately slippery incline they had got themselves stuck in. And even then the company would have preferred we didn't if they had their way but often the people would otherwise be blocking a solitary access road for hours while they waited for a tow from 100 kilometres away.
posted by Mitheral at 7:39 PM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]

Even I, a hobbyist, definitely have tools I wouldn't let someone borrow, even if I were present the whole time they were using it. But those are tools like my dial test indicator, in case it gets damaged, or my angle grinder with a death wheel in it, in case the borrower gets damaged.

It's tough to put a notch in a 13mm wrench, provided you're trying to turn a 13mm nut. Guy just couldn't fathom that someone who looks like Too-Ticky could possibly have known their way around a wrench.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:28 PM on August 7, 2023 [3 favorites]

Mitheral: The mechanics in a shop generally own their own tools, they aren't provided by the shop.
(...)
most mechanics are working piece work; the more work they do during a work day the more they get paid.

Are you absolutely sure that is the same all over the world? Because I'm not.
And yeah, I would not lend you my sable paint brushes but I would lend you my 13mm wrench. All tools are not created equal.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:48 AM on August 8, 2023 [1 favorite]

Indeed they're not.

That's why one of the things I got little ms flabdablet for her birthday a couple years ago was this classy bougie ratchet and a collection of nice Ko-ken sockets to go with.

I have my own shit-grade bitser socket set that serves my purposes adequately so I don't need to borrow hers, which already have many more hours on them than mine but still look essentially new.
posted by flabdablet at 3:55 AM on August 8, 2023

Are you absolutely sure that is the same all over the world?

You're right, that was too authoritative and undoubtedly is different in different places. It's true for the mechanics I know but that is a very limited selection of all the mechanics.
posted by Mitheral at 4:21 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

I generally don't lend any tools, except to trusted friends. One hassle of lending tools is that it often evolves into "fix this for me", especially when it comes to specialized tools.

At one point I found some cheap but decent screwdrivers. I bought them 5 at a time, and that is what i would lend, and not cry if they didn't find their way home. They made great chisels and paint-can openers too [cringe].
posted by Artful Codger at 8:01 AM on August 8, 2023

Honestly, I'm a hair-breadth away from divorcing my husband over this. He cannot not help me, regardless of how many times I've said I can do the thing. This includes driving, parking, and anything involving tools. The number of times he's taken things out of my hands to "help" which often results in me dropping something, I can't count.

My father was a woodworker and I grew up helping him in his shop. I can make dovetail joints, build simple furniture, and I know a lot of little woodworking tricks because I watched my dad for decades. So when it was time to install some invisible raw edge shelves, I assumed I'd be the one to do it. Nope. My husband stripped three screws trying to install the brackets (the screws were cheap, apparently) and ruined two boards trying to drill the hole for the bracket post (there's no real way to actually drill a hole in the edge of a board. He even watched tons of YouTube videos.) After an hour of him struggling, I asked if I could give it a try. When I successfully drilled the hole for the post on the first try, he actually argued with me about my technique. For each subsequent hole, he corrected how I was holding the drill and warned me to be careful repeatedly.

After the shelves were sanded and finished and installed (all by me) he made a point of saying, "well, I guess you had an unfair advantage on that, cause your dad probably showed you how to do all that."

It's hilarious because when we met, he thought it was awesome that I could use tools, change my tire, and was generally competent but now, apparently, I've forgotten everything.

Men do not fully grasp how *done* many women are.
posted by teleri025 at 9:18 AM on August 8, 2023 [21 favorites]

An "unfair" advantage...of knowing how to do it?

It's like he thought you'd stolen a win because you had knowledge he didn't?

Absolutely insane.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:53 AM on August 8, 2023 [9 favorites]

The number of times he's taken things out of my hands to "help" which often results in me dropping something, I can't count.

My dearest husband does something similar. I find it particularly disrespectful, deprecating, dismissive, infantalizing to have my actual hands disregarded from whatever it was I was intentionally already engaged in doing with them. This is most often pushing or holding something out to me to take while my hands are already full, or less frequently, interrupting and elbowing me out to do something for me that I am already doing, or actually taking something out of my hands.

I've explained to him that my hands are important to respect, and I do know he does not intend to devalue me. I don't know whether this is a particularly male thing, whether it's an extension of what this thread is exploring, or not, since he is the only person who gets close enough to me to do this. He's not "that" guy in most respects. For him, it's closer to a chivalry thing. But ... yeah, I really hear you on the hands thing, and it's worthy of a separate conversation on its own, away from the general "helping" conversation.
posted by Dashy at 11:00 AM on August 8, 2023 [4 favorites]

Some men can learn to get over projecting their insecurities about their masculinity onto their spouses, if only for the sake of holding onto their marriage. Some can't. It's like... what's more important???
posted by tigrrrlily at 11:07 AM on August 8, 2023 [1 favorite]

Dashy: For him, it's closer to a chivalry thing.

Sure. But it's only actually chivalrous if m'lady wants the help.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:14 AM on August 8, 2023 [6 favorites]

And the best part about the "taking stuff out my hands thing" is that it's something that my mother was HORRIBLE about. She would straight up take a pencil out of your hand and start correcting your mistakes. Once, not long after we got married, we were at my folks' house, my husband was unpacking the car and was struggling to get the dog bed out of the back of the car while he was carrying his bag as well. My mom fully body checked him out of the way and snatched up the dog bed and said "Here let me help!"

He bitched about it for months. And yet, he did it to me yesterday when I had three grocery bags in my hands. Just snatched them out of my hands like I was a broken doll.

Needless to say, I might be a smidge sensitive about unwanted help.
posted by teleri025 at 11:15 AM on August 8, 2023 [5 favorites]

Make these guys read this thread! A gal can dream of change...
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:30 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'm convinced that a fairly high proportion of people don't have a developed theory of mind-- the understanding that other people have their own point of view.

Instead, testing is done on the easy stuff-- can we understand that other people don't see what we can see (literally) so we can feel smug about small children and most animals.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:18 PM on August 8, 2023 [4 favorites]

I love offers of help and have accepted them from time to time, have made offers of help. I live in Maine, it's relatively safe and friendly, and I like it this way. Women are not saying Don't Offer Help. Women are saying Accept No For An Answer. This applies extremely broadly. No Means No.

Get a tattoo if you have trouble remembering this critical concept.
posted by theora55 at 10:30 AM on August 10, 2023 [14 favorites]