An exceedingly bizarre choice if one wishes to obfuscate the IP address
August 6, 2023 1:13 PM Subscribe
A study into toxicity on Economics Job Market Rumors says it uncovered IP addresses for posts, linking many back to universities. The paper, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, was presented at the NBER summer meeting and starts with a content warning on racism, sexism, and threats of violence. Study authors note, "Using only publicly available data we show that the statistical properties of the scheme by which [algorithmically-assigned] usernames were generated allows the IP addresses from which most posts were made to be determined with high probability." Approximately 10% of posts originated from university IP addresses; about 10% of all posts were categorized as toxic. A small proportion of IP addresses generated more than 60% of toxic posts. EJMR, previously on MeFi.
Asked for comment Wednesday afternoon, EJMR sent an email saying, “you may wish to consider what a neutral actor (ChatGPT) thinks about the study.”LOL
EJMR’s email then includes a question to that artificial intelligence program: “Would reverse engineering partial hash codes of thousands of website users to get their IPs with brute force be considered hacking?” ChatGPT, according to the email, replied “Yes, that activity would certainly be considered hacking, and more specifically, it would be illegal and unethical.”LOLOLOLOLOLOL
posted by Flunkie at 1:32 PM on August 6, 2023 [44 favorites]
Well that tells me pretty much anything I’d need to know about E JMR without having to look anything up.
posted by Artw at 1:39 PM on August 6, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:39 PM on August 6, 2023 [25 favorites]
A fairly common test for "getting in trouble" is a) was this on your own time and b) are you identified as belonging to an institution (also, c) are your opinions defensible, but that is a much more fraught sort of defense)?
In this case, for an academic, anything you do directly in your field may be considered "on work time." Even if you are pseudonymously posting, I'm not sure you'd be protected if that pseudonym was pierced. Most universities have a "bringing shame on the institution" clause that can overrule job protections (including tenure). These people have reason to be concerned, if they are at an institution that is willing to go a certain distance to be seen reacting to racism, sexism, etc.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:17 PM on August 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
In this case, for an academic, anything you do directly in your field may be considered "on work time." Even if you are pseudonymously posting, I'm not sure you'd be protected if that pseudonym was pierced. Most universities have a "bringing shame on the institution" clause that can overrule job protections (including tenure). These people have reason to be concerned, if they are at an institution that is willing to go a certain distance to be seen reacting to racism, sexism, etc.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:17 PM on August 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
I underestimated how quickly ChatGPT would become an all-purpose oracle. That's amazing.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:22 PM on August 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:22 PM on August 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
Later in the day, the website sent this email: "It is essential to maintain an anonymous forum in the economics profession.
Yeah, maybe you should have done a better job making your forum anonymous, bozo!
posted by BungaDunga at 2:26 PM on August 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
Yeah, maybe you should have done a better job making your forum anonymous, bozo!
posted by BungaDunga at 2:26 PM on August 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
"It is essential to maintain an anonymous forum in the economics profession."
Um, why?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:30 PM on August 6, 2023 [33 favorites]
Um, why?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:30 PM on August 6, 2023 [33 favorites]
Um, why?
Classism. No wait, misogyny. No wait, racism. Racism, final answer.
posted by sevenless at 2:39 PM on August 6, 2023 [57 favorites]
Classism. No wait, misogyny. No wait, racism. Racism, final answer.
posted by sevenless at 2:39 PM on August 6, 2023 [57 favorites]
Surely, the solution is to put the information out there in the free market of ideas and let each homo rationalus ssp. economicus decide for themselves whether it is reputational damage or the corrective adjustment of inaccurate reputation assessments.
posted by srboisvert at 2:42 PM on August 6, 2023 [43 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 2:42 PM on August 6, 2023 [43 favorites]
Um, why?
In an alternate universe, perhaps to safely discuss discrimination or professional bullying or sexual harassment or academic misconduct. In reality of course EJMR is just 4chan for academics.
posted by atoxyl at 3:07 PM on August 6, 2023 [31 favorites]
In an alternate universe, perhaps to safely discuss discrimination or professional bullying or sexual harassment or academic misconduct. In reality of course EJMR is just 4chan for academics.
posted by atoxyl at 3:07 PM on August 6, 2023 [31 favorites]
In an alternate universe, perhaps to safely discuss discrimination or professional bullying or sexual harassment or academic misconduct. In reality of course EJMR is just 4chan for academics.
Not just 4chan for academics, but for economics academics. Which is sort of like the difference between "x for artists" and "x for people who enjoy eating crayons."
posted by Mayor West at 3:36 PM on August 6, 2023 [40 favorites]
Not just 4chan for academics, but for economics academics. Which is sort of like the difference between "x for artists" and "x for people who enjoy eating crayons."
posted by Mayor West at 3:36 PM on August 6, 2023 [40 favorites]
Not just 4chan for academics, but for economics academics. Which is sort of like the difference between "x for artists" and "x for people who enjoy eating crayons."Wait, did I miss something about economic academicians in general? I don't really follow economists as a whole, but there are plenty of economists who seem like smart people, decent people, and some even smart and decent people to me.
(also, don't knock eating crayons if you haven't tried it)
posted by Flunkie at 3:52 PM on August 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
For this identified "toxic speech" was it language to describe the person(s) who are being called a plagiarist?
Because while calling someone a [insert a word that would get banned here] or pointing out the fate of Mr. Morden is what should be done to a plagiarist is gonna get called toxic. Because, sure, both are "toxic". And given the 12 year set of data the moderation is gonna let 'toxic abuse' stand VS actions the community finds distasteful.
How many words here are tolerated on targets like, say, Trump and the 1st days of the Russian invasion of Ukraine but would not be allowed on a thread about, say, bunnies?
A bunch of pearls being clutched by some people who got their feelings hurt and couldn't get the moderation team to remove the content which hurt their feelings is a take away of this proposed paper. Conduct COULD have chosen to not acting in a way that gets people to make such comments about their conduct which would not be tolerated in other discussion threads.
I hope these paper writers release their data in full so others can see if the "toxic language" is a crude response to crude toxic behavior. Or even "humor" like this language:
Not just 4chan for academics, but for economics academics. Which is sort of like the difference between "x for artists" and "x for people who enjoy eating crayons."
posted by rough ashlar at 4:09 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Because while calling someone a [insert a word that would get banned here] or pointing out the fate of Mr. Morden is what should be done to a plagiarist is gonna get called toxic. Because, sure, both are "toxic". And given the 12 year set of data the moderation is gonna let 'toxic abuse' stand VS actions the community finds distasteful.
How many words here are tolerated on targets like, say, Trump and the 1st days of the Russian invasion of Ukraine but would not be allowed on a thread about, say, bunnies?
A bunch of pearls being clutched by some people who got their feelings hurt and couldn't get the moderation team to remove the content which hurt their feelings is a take away of this proposed paper. Conduct COULD have chosen to not acting in a way that gets people to make such comments about their conduct which would not be tolerated in other discussion threads.
I hope these paper writers release their data in full so others can see if the "toxic language" is a crude response to crude toxic behavior. Or even "humor" like this language:
Not just 4chan for academics, but for economics academics. Which is sort of like the difference between "x for artists" and "x for people who enjoy eating crayons."
posted by rough ashlar at 4:09 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wait, did I miss something about economic academicians in general? I don't really follow economists as a whole, but there are plenty of economists who seem like smart people, decent people, and some even smart and decent people to me.
It's like the line from Men in Black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals and you know it."
Are there good economists out there? Sure. But the field of economics has had a history of defending bigotry, hate, discrimination, and inequity to this very day, in large part because the field refuses to boot those who defend those things.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:09 PM on August 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
It's like the line from Men in Black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals and you know it."
Are there good economists out there? Sure. But the field of economics has had a history of defending bigotry, hate, discrimination, and inequity to this very day, in large part because the field refuses to boot those who defend those things.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:09 PM on August 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to legitimately want anonymous or pseudonymous communication; you can likely dig up plenty of them in pretty much any critique of Facebook's "Real Name" policy. Having anonymity is not inherently the problem. Failure to moderate toxicity and establish a respectful culture is, but that takes work and buy-in from the people involved in maintaining the space, so a lot of places don't bother or have a culture actively hostile to such moderation, and it sounds like EMJR (like 4chan) is likely the latter sort of place.
The fact that a site previously thought to be anonymous actually isn't is a separate problem; if (for example) MetaFilter had this sort of weakness I doubt we'd be cheering on the people who would be publishing those results, as there are plenty of people here who have talked about sensitive things under the cover of pseudonymity or anonymity that could be targeted for harassment or abuse if that was removed.
I don't mind indulging in a bit of schadenfreude when it hits a target that deserves it, but I really don't like the erosion of rights that comes along with attacks on anonymity and privacy itself.
posted by Aleyn at 4:09 PM on August 6, 2023 [23 favorites]
The fact that a site previously thought to be anonymous actually isn't is a separate problem; if (for example) MetaFilter had this sort of weakness I doubt we'd be cheering on the people who would be publishing those results, as there are plenty of people here who have talked about sensitive things under the cover of pseudonymity or anonymity that could be targeted for harassment or abuse if that was removed.
I don't mind indulging in a bit of schadenfreude when it hits a target that deserves it, but I really don't like the erosion of rights that comes along with attacks on anonymity and privacy itself.
posted by Aleyn at 4:09 PM on August 6, 2023 [23 favorites]
Um, why?
Look, I've knocked around... a number of disciplines in my career, and I've never in my life heard about an anonymousburn book forum in any of em. What in the fresh hell is this?!
I mean, fuck, the rest of us make do with glorified mailing lists!
posted by sciatrix at 4:11 PM on August 6, 2023 [19 favorites]
Look, I've knocked around... a number of disciplines in my career, and I've never in my life heard about an anonymous
I mean, fuck, the rest of us make do with glorified mailing lists!
posted by sciatrix at 4:11 PM on August 6, 2023 [19 favorites]
Having anonymity is not inherently the problem.
While it is not inherently the problem, it a) makes the problem more intractable as it becomes harder to hold abusers accountable and b) serves to undermine the legitimacy of anonymity/pseudonymity as people hurt by it are less willing to see it as legitimate.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:16 PM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
While it is not inherently the problem, it a) makes the problem more intractable as it becomes harder to hold abusers accountable and b) serves to undermine the legitimacy of anonymity/pseudonymity as people hurt by it are less willing to see it as legitimate.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:16 PM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm not calling anonymity a panacea. It obviously has problems and challenges, some of which are solved by MetaFilter-style pseudonymity (and some that aren't). Allowing it is something that should be carefully considered by any community, and certainly no community has an obligation to support it. I just get uncomfortable when the discussion leaps to it as the problem with a community with the obvious implied follow-up solution being "well, if they just used their real names, this wouldn't have been a problem."
posted by Aleyn at 4:21 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 4:21 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
A bunch of pearls being clutched by some people who got their feelings hurt and couldn't get the moderation team to remove the content which hurt their feelings is a take away of this proposed paper.
Oh, fuck this noise, especially coming from someone who defended KiwiFarms - a forum that actively drove transgender people to suicide. Bigotry and hate harms, and trying to dismiss that by calling it "hurt feelings" is a bad faith argument that deserves only mockery and scorn.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:23 PM on August 6, 2023 [63 favorites]
Oh, fuck this noise, especially coming from someone who defended KiwiFarms - a forum that actively drove transgender people to suicide. Bigotry and hate harms, and trying to dismiss that by calling it "hurt feelings" is a bad faith argument that deserves only mockery and scorn.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:23 PM on August 6, 2023 [63 favorites]
(In other words, anonymity combined with toxic culture will certainly amplify the problem--KiwiFarms is perhaps the ur-example of this--but anonymity itself is value-neutral. It is not a bad thing to want it for a forum/community/whatever. Sorry if this comes off as concern-trollish, I truly do think that EJMR likely deserves its reckoning, but I worry that we'll learn the wrong lessons from it.)
posted by Aleyn at 4:33 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Aleyn at 4:33 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Had to look up what "KiwiFarms" is. Wikipedia tells me that its parent organization is "1776 Solutions LLC", which... 🙄
It then goes on to tell me that 1776 Solutions LLC was originally known as "Final Solutions LLC", which... 😧
posted by Flunkie at 4:38 PM on August 6, 2023 [24 favorites]
It then goes on to tell me that 1776 Solutions LLC was originally known as "Final Solutions LLC", which... 😧
posted by Flunkie at 4:38 PM on August 6, 2023 [24 favorites]
A bunch of pearls being clutched by some people who got their feelings hurt and couldn't get the moderation team to remove the content which hurt their feelings is a take away of this proposed paper. Conduct COULD have chosen to not acting in a way that gets people to make such comments about their conduct which would not be tolerated in other discussion threads.
In the paper itself, section 2.5 on page 21 deals with their methodology and identifying and classifying the disposition of things that they classify as toxic. Rough Ashlar seems to have failed to read through the paper that far, if at all, before jumping in to make false equivalencies and defend the posters because what if their threats, racism, misogyny, and homophobia was just a prank, bro?
posted by Jon_Evil at 4:46 PM on August 6, 2023 [24 favorites]
In the paper itself, section 2.5 on page 21 deals with their methodology and identifying and classifying the disposition of things that they classify as toxic. Rough Ashlar seems to have failed to read through the paper that far, if at all, before jumping in to make false equivalencies and defend the posters because what if their threats, racism, misogyny, and homophobia was just a prank, bro?
posted by Jon_Evil at 4:46 PM on August 6, 2023 [24 favorites]
I'm not an economist, so the issue of what happens when a previously-thought-to-be-anonymous forum turns out not to be, after ten years of poorly considered posts, was part of what was interesting to me.
Sorry if my linking text was a bit obscure. Here is the full manuscript, for those who missed the link above and are interested.
posted by eirias at 5:00 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sorry if my linking text was a bit obscure. Here is the full manuscript, for those who missed the link above and are interested.
posted by eirias at 5:00 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m pretty sure if your economics deviates from “burn the planet to make line go up” you’re too much of a heretic for this place.
posted by Artw at 5:15 PM on August 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:15 PM on August 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
OK, this is not all that hard to understand. EJMR at least pretends to be a professional site, where professionals talk as professionals. As such, they are doing this "on the clock" and representing their employer whether they like it or not. If their toxic posting comes to light, they are, indeed, in trouble. I have somewhat more concern for someone who is being a jerk on, say, a hobby site, like an academic economist who moonlights as a knitting troll, but it can be a very fine line, depending on exact behavior other details.
And, yes, this can be a real problem for people whose normal lives are a contested area and being outed as LGBTQ+ or in recovery or an atheist or a dominatrix (or whatever I'm OK with) should their employers figure it out, but they are already at risk being themselves. It's not sensible to have toxic internet posters get treated better, is it?
"Will no one think of the trolls?" is a bad look, even for trolls.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:27 PM on August 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
And, yes, this can be a real problem for people whose normal lives are a contested area and being outed as LGBTQ+ or in recovery or an atheist or a dominatrix (or whatever I'm OK with) should their employers figure it out, but they are already at risk being themselves. It's not sensible to have toxic internet posters get treated better, is it?
"Will no one think of the trolls?" is a bad look, even for trolls.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:27 PM on August 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
defend the posters because what if their threats, racism, misogyny, and homophobia was just a prank, bro?
and defended KiwiFarms
Ahh yes, the toxin of the online forum of taking what was said, reframing or outright stating a mis statement and the normal next step is names get called. And because this site is moderated that next step normally does not stay published and why this place is what it is.
Depending on the target what is allowed to stay up will vary and vary enough that if one picks certain words as 'toxic' you will find them to justify your thesis. Some 1/4 pound'n people make enough of a living on doing just that to afford to build out 3/4 million Dollar 30+ acre homestead by finding a comment or 2 on social media and then drunkenly read those comments for 10 mins.
read through the paper
The link I did read was from the top of the page and mentioned plagiarism and was a discussion about this 'paper' taken from a git repository. I didn't spot the 'paper'. (ok
thanks for the more direct link eirias).
1) The 2nd page of the paper offers what is supposed to be a link and is not.
2) Notes there is moderation and yet 'toxic' speech still stays up.
Gosh. Toxic things are online even with moderation. This isn't shocking, Newspaper comment sections, various review sites, X.con, Meta, and a whole host of other places have been working on sanitation for advertisers for some time.
The counter proposal of 'lets have a well regulated gossip site!' won't get people to go there for a fee and pay a living wage for people to moderate it. Within months someone will post something that should not have been moderated and then the cycle of demanding burning the new place to the ground for censorship will happen and then someone will create a different place where the cycle will start anew.
so the issue of what happens when a previously-thought-to-be-anonymous forum turns out not to be, after ten years of poorly considered posts, was part of what was interesting to me.
The best outcome for the masses here is to add this to the pile of data you show kids before going online with the general advise of various talking heads that one should consider what one says online is gonna get judged. Something like "took advantage of her initial postdoc position
organizing conferences with JL and handling requests for grant proposals to steal ideas” can get someone's jimmies rustled per this paper.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:35 PM on August 6, 2023
and defended KiwiFarms
Ahh yes, the toxin of the online forum of taking what was said, reframing or outright stating a mis statement and the normal next step is names get called. And because this site is moderated that next step normally does not stay published and why this place is what it is.
Depending on the target what is allowed to stay up will vary and vary enough that if one picks certain words as 'toxic' you will find them to justify your thesis. Some 1/4 pound'n people make enough of a living on doing just that to afford to build out 3/4 million Dollar 30+ acre homestead by finding a comment or 2 on social media and then drunkenly read those comments for 10 mins.
read through the paper
The link I did read was from the top of the page and mentioned plagiarism and was a discussion about this 'paper' taken from a git repository. I didn't spot the 'paper'. (ok
thanks for the more direct link eirias).
1) The 2nd page of the paper offers what is supposed to be a link and is not.
2) Notes there is moderation and yet 'toxic' speech still stays up.
Gosh. Toxic things are online even with moderation. This isn't shocking, Newspaper comment sections, various review sites, X.con, Meta, and a whole host of other places have been working on sanitation for advertisers for some time.
The counter proposal of 'lets have a well regulated gossip site!' won't get people to go there for a fee and pay a living wage for people to moderate it. Within months someone will post something that should not have been moderated and then the cycle of demanding burning the new place to the ground for censorship will happen and then someone will create a different place where the cycle will start anew.
so the issue of what happens when a previously-thought-to-be-anonymous forum turns out not to be, after ten years of poorly considered posts, was part of what was interesting to me.
The best outcome for the masses here is to add this to the pile of data you show kids before going online with the general advise of various talking heads that one should consider what one says online is gonna get judged. Something like "took advantage of her initial postdoc position
organizing conferences with JL and handling requests for grant proposals to steal ideas” can get someone's jimmies rustled per this paper.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:35 PM on August 6, 2023
Ahh yes, the toxin of the online forum of taking what was said, reframing or outright stating a mis statement and the normal next step is names get called.
Nobody is calling you names. All that's being pointed out is that your comments are part of a history of defending bigots and abusers out of a twisted interpretation of free speech. A history that is available for all to read, by the way.
If it bothers you so much that people respond negatively when you carry water for bigots, abusers, and fascists, you need only drop the bucket.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:45 PM on August 6, 2023 [56 favorites]
Nobody is calling you names. All that's being pointed out is that your comments are part of a history of defending bigots and abusers out of a twisted interpretation of free speech. A history that is available for all to read, by the way.
If it bothers you so much that people respond negatively when you carry water for bigots, abusers, and fascists, you need only drop the bucket.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:45 PM on August 6, 2023 [56 favorites]
Thanks, NoxAeternum, that link saved quite a bit of effort.
posted by tigrrrlily at 5:57 PM on August 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 5:57 PM on August 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Why are you calling it a “proposed paper”. Why are you putting paper in quotes. Why are you allegedly that these three scholar’s plagiarized a paper that they clearly did not.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:12 PM on August 6, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:12 PM on August 6, 2023
Why are you calling it a “proposed paper”.
From the 1st link:
"according to a draft paper leaked early online. "
Further talk about how it was obtained from a git repository exists.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:26 PM on August 6, 2023
From the 1st link:
"according to a draft paper leaked early online. "
Further talk about how it was obtained from a git repository exists.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:26 PM on August 6, 2023
Which means that it's a paper in the process of publication. There's nothing "proposed" about it - the paper actually exists.
For someone who complains about words being misconstrued and warped, you seem awfully ready to do so when it advances your argument.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:44 PM on August 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
For someone who complains about words being misconstrued and warped, you seem awfully ready to do so when it advances your argument.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:44 PM on August 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
The findings were presented at a professional conference, which is probably why someone went looking for the draft paper. That is often part of the publication process. The presenters may get formal or informal feedback, which informs the version of the paper submitted for publication (and usually peer review). Further revisions and rewrites follow, then, hopefully, publication.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:52 PM on August 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:52 PM on August 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
My god. It was supposed to be released when the presentation at the NBER summer institute went live, but someone found it on one of the authors Github page a couple days before the NBER session. There’s no “proposed paper”. It’s a paper. It’s out there. It wasn’t obtained only from the authors GitHub, they circulated it. Please get the basic facts of the story right before you have Very Strong Opinions.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:53 PM on August 6, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:53 PM on August 6, 2023 [21 favorites]
For this identified "toxic speech" was it language to describe the person(s) who are being called a plagiarist?
You can read the paper to see that it is not. Here are some (ROT13d for safety) illustrative quotes from the paper when they're talking about the difficulty in processing text from ejmr; these are consistent with the few times I've looked at ejmr and with its related 4chan that's notionally for political science.
“Tvira jbzra trg serr fcbgf, oyxf naq yngvaf trg serr fcbgf, vg onfvpnyyl zrnaf lbh arrq gb or sne sne evtug gnvy vs h ner n lg be nma ubzrtebja Nzrevpna.” (2022-12-27)
“gubfr q4za w3jf unq ab zbenyf rvgure.” (2022-08-13)
“Zbyq-sn//t//t//bg, V jvyy fcyvg lbhe n//f/f va gjb jvgu zl UHZBATBHF fhcre UNEQ
funybat. Lbh jvyy or fdhrnyvat yvxr gur yvggyr orvn/gpu gung lbh ner.” (2020-01-28)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:27 PM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
You can read the paper to see that it is not. Here are some (ROT13d for safety) illustrative quotes from the paper when they're talking about the difficulty in processing text from ejmr; these are consistent with the few times I've looked at ejmr and with its related 4chan that's notionally for political science.
“Tvira jbzra trg serr fcbgf, oyxf naq yngvaf trg serr fcbgf, vg onfvpnyyl zrnaf lbh arrq gb or sne sne evtug gnvy vs h ner n lg be nma ubzrtebja Nzrevpna.” (2022-12-27)
“gubfr q4za w3jf unq ab zbenyf rvgure.” (2022-08-13)
“Zbyq-sn//t//t//bg, V jvyy fcyvg lbhe n//f/f va gjb jvgu zl UHZBATBHF fhcre UNEQ
funybat. Lbh jvyy or fdhrnyvat yvxr gur yvggyr orvn/gpu gung lbh ner.” (2020-01-28)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:27 PM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
(also, don't knock eating crayons if you haven't tried it)
A lot of family restaurants have a big bowl of after-dinner crayons on the host stand, for folks to grab one or two on the way out. It's rude to take more than a couple though.
posted by aubilenon at 7:41 PM on August 6, 2023 [34 favorites]
A lot of family restaurants have a big bowl of after-dinner crayons on the host stand, for folks to grab one or two on the way out. It's rude to take more than a couple though.
posted by aubilenon at 7:41 PM on August 6, 2023 [34 favorites]
Flunkie: (also, don't knock eating crayons if you haven't tried it)
Found the Marine.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:17 PM on August 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Found the Marine.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:17 PM on August 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I would describe all of those ROT13 quotes as being pretty toxic speech. Not sure I understand the context, but, not a great look to have on your site. 4chan I would expect it. Anyone looking for credibility... probably not
posted by Windopaene at 9:03 PM on August 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 9:03 PM on August 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
And to add
If you are dumb enough to post shit like that from your University IP, you probably shouldn't be on staff. Good lord.
Let them worry, then fire their shitty racist asses. We can certainly find more economists who aren't pieces of shit. (Maybe, not impressed by economists, but some are not trash I guess?).
posted by Windopaene at 9:12 PM on August 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
If you are dumb enough to post shit like that from your University IP, you probably shouldn't be on staff. Good lord.
Let them worry, then fire their shitty racist asses. We can certainly find more economists who aren't pieces of shit. (Maybe, not impressed by economists, but some are not trash I guess?).
posted by Windopaene at 9:12 PM on August 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
EJMR at least pretends to be a professional site, where professionals talk as professionals. As such, they are doing this "on the clock"
I wouldn't say that any time I post to a legal forum I am representing my employer or acting "on the clock."
HOWEVER. If I were to say things that would cast serious doubt on my ability to work with or on behalf of marginalized people, it would be entirely reasonable for my employer to take that into consideration.
posted by praemunire at 10:28 PM on August 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I wouldn't say that any time I post to a legal forum I am representing my employer or acting "on the clock."
HOWEVER. If I were to say things that would cast serious doubt on my ability to work with or on behalf of marginalized people, it would be entirely reasonable for my employer to take that into consideration.
posted by praemunire at 10:28 PM on August 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mod note: No comments have been deleted, BUT rough ashlar, please step out of this conversation. You are dominating, disrupting and redirecting the entire discussion with misinformation, misunderstandings, confusion, and general rants about moderation / moderated sites. FAQ / Guidelines. Everyone else, please carry on discussing the post rather than continue the derail. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:11 PM on August 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:11 PM on August 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
I don't mind indulging in a bit of schadenfreude when it hits a target that deserves it, but I really don't like the erosion of rights that comes along with attacks on anonymity and privacy itself.
I don't think it makes sense to talk about the method as a thing in itself. I am not a fan of kidnapping, but I don't have an inherent issue with a legal system that has prison as an option (even if I have issues with most specific implementations of that idea).
Basically, I think you have to look at context: deanonymising these guys is no more ab attack on the concept of anonymity than jailing a murderer is am attack of the concept of freedom, than expelling a disruptive bully from a school is an attack on the concept of education. The action exists in the context of a behaviour that necessitated it.
posted by Dysk at 12:13 AM on August 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
I don't think it makes sense to talk about the method as a thing in itself. I am not a fan of kidnapping, but I don't have an inherent issue with a legal system that has prison as an option (even if I have issues with most specific implementations of that idea).
Basically, I think you have to look at context: deanonymising these guys is no more ab attack on the concept of anonymity than jailing a murderer is am attack of the concept of freedom, than expelling a disruptive bully from a school is an attack on the concept of education. The action exists in the context of a behaviour that necessitated it.
posted by Dysk at 12:13 AM on August 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
There is a similar site supposedly about job market rumors in my own field, which I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot keyboard, because it too is full of racist attacks on scholars and grad students of color, misogynist attacks on feminist scholarship and women grad students, transphobia and homophobia galore, etc..
I watched a grad student mentee of mine go on the job market and use the site as it is supposedly intended, who was shocked to find such a morass on an ostensible professional website, try to marshal all the relevant research and counter a bunch of claims about women not being able to handle serious scholarship and grad students of color being coddled inferiors foolishly being treated as serious scholars by universities terrified of being called racist and trans people being mentally ill and hideous to boot. And that former grad student mentee got mobbed and mocked and hounded on the site, and then doxxed to the institution that had recently hired them. And guess what? None of the bigots were doxxed, none of them faced any real life repercussions, but the former mentee of mine, a trans person of color, was disciplined by their institution and made to agree not to use social media at all for five years, because the university had received complaints about them (from a mob of trolls!) and "they were hired to teach and research, not draw negative attention to the university from 'those with opposing views' in social media battles." This is your classic bothsiderist approach, in which a bunch of racists attacking one marginalized new academic hire and trying to get them fired is equated with that one marginalized new academic posting well-citationed counters to racist, misogynist claims researchers in our own academic field have long disproven.
Let's be real: what happened to my former mentee was an example of real, actual, negative doxxing. A vulnerable individual was maliciously targeted in real life by bigots trying to destroy them. (Oh, yes, some engaged in Kiwi-Farm-style urging of the individual to commit suicide, as an "inevitable" outcome for people with the mentally ill delusion that they can change sex, which the posters said they had obviously failed to do, linking to online photos of the former mentee and mocking their appearance.)
What happened to my former mentee is in no way equivalent to an academic article identifying hate posts on a professional site as coming from IP addresses associated with prominent universities in order to demonstrate that there is a dynamic in the professional field that is concerning. No individual hate-posters have been identified, let alone targeted by mobs sharing their real names and home addresses, and trying to get them fired or encouraging them to engage in self-harm. To equate the two seems highly disingenuous to me.
Fundamentally, I just feel really dispirited about how many people have chosen as a favored leisure activity attacking marginalized people in mobs. Calling it trolling doesn't seem sufficient to me, as someone who has been the subject of a few such attacks. But what distinguishes this research is that it is demonstrating that there are people calling marginalized people slurs and threatening to sexually assault them on company time, using their university computers. And that is something we should all witness and repudiate.
posted by DrMew at 12:56 AM on August 7, 2023 [96 favorites]
I watched a grad student mentee of mine go on the job market and use the site as it is supposedly intended, who was shocked to find such a morass on an ostensible professional website, try to marshal all the relevant research and counter a bunch of claims about women not being able to handle serious scholarship and grad students of color being coddled inferiors foolishly being treated as serious scholars by universities terrified of being called racist and trans people being mentally ill and hideous to boot. And that former grad student mentee got mobbed and mocked and hounded on the site, and then doxxed to the institution that had recently hired them. And guess what? None of the bigots were doxxed, none of them faced any real life repercussions, but the former mentee of mine, a trans person of color, was disciplined by their institution and made to agree not to use social media at all for five years, because the university had received complaints about them (from a mob of trolls!) and "they were hired to teach and research, not draw negative attention to the university from 'those with opposing views' in social media battles." This is your classic bothsiderist approach, in which a bunch of racists attacking one marginalized new academic hire and trying to get them fired is equated with that one marginalized new academic posting well-citationed counters to racist, misogynist claims researchers in our own academic field have long disproven.
Let's be real: what happened to my former mentee was an example of real, actual, negative doxxing. A vulnerable individual was maliciously targeted in real life by bigots trying to destroy them. (Oh, yes, some engaged in Kiwi-Farm-style urging of the individual to commit suicide, as an "inevitable" outcome for people with the mentally ill delusion that they can change sex, which the posters said they had obviously failed to do, linking to online photos of the former mentee and mocking their appearance.)
What happened to my former mentee is in no way equivalent to an academic article identifying hate posts on a professional site as coming from IP addresses associated with prominent universities in order to demonstrate that there is a dynamic in the professional field that is concerning. No individual hate-posters have been identified, let alone targeted by mobs sharing their real names and home addresses, and trying to get them fired or encouraging them to engage in self-harm. To equate the two seems highly disingenuous to me.
Fundamentally, I just feel really dispirited about how many people have chosen as a favored leisure activity attacking marginalized people in mobs. Calling it trolling doesn't seem sufficient to me, as someone who has been the subject of a few such attacks. But what distinguishes this research is that it is demonstrating that there are people calling marginalized people slurs and threatening to sexually assault them on company time, using their university computers. And that is something we should all witness and repudiate.
posted by DrMew at 12:56 AM on August 7, 2023 [96 favorites]
I pointed this out to Blair Fix several weeks ago, who found amusing "the Chicago dominance in Figure 12".
Anonymity is useful in many domains, but if you develop a 4chan culture then maybe you're not a great place for job advice.
It's true economics has "a history of defending bigotry, hate, discrimination, and inequity", NoxAeternum, but really economics is guilty of worse: gross malpractice that risks genocide or even extinction.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:58 AM on August 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Anonymity is useful in many domains, but if you develop a 4chan culture then maybe you're not a great place for job advice.
It's true economics has "a history of defending bigotry, hate, discrimination, and inequity", NoxAeternum, but really economics is guilty of worse: gross malpractice that risks genocide or even extinction.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:58 AM on August 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
defending bigotry, hate, discrimination, and inequity
gross malpractice that risks genocide or even extinction
I feel like there's a causal link somewhere in there.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 7:14 AM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
gross malpractice that risks genocide or even extinction
I feel like there's a causal link somewhere in there.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 7:14 AM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
defending bigotry, hate, discrimination, and inequity gross malpractice that risks genocide or even extinctionSurely the economists have some tools to help us investigate this! I bet they’ll get right on that…
I feel like there's a causal link somewhere in there.
Thanks for the dispiriting story, DrMew. Another part of the subtext in your story, I think, is how utterly horrid the hazing is in some fields. It’s not just the racism, sexism, anti-queer bias, although it is absolutely that, it is also the fact that so much of the game in academia is being seen to be brilliant and famous. And sometimes that means pissing on everybody with less clout than you, which absolutely includes junior scholars like your student. I read a pretty cutting blog post on this topic when I was looking for more info on the story, and it brought back all my worst awkward-confusion-and-terror feelings from my PhD program (in a different discipline — but still toxic in spots). Ugh, that emotional tapeworm the blogger mentions is real and never satisfied.
posted by eirias at 7:28 AM on August 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I remember hearing about the EJMR forum being toxic ten years ago, as a non-economist.
Job forums have some extra tendency to be awful because all of the job seekers are in an ultra high stress state, prone to overthinking things that don't actually matter (such as unvetted anonymous forum posts) and/or acting out (by channeling their bad interview experiences into a budding romance with white supremacy).
I feel like a bar and a lottery could go a long way towards depressurizing the job process (so that everyone who passes the bar has an equal shot at a job), though a raw lottery would do little to correct for the existing iniquities... and elite academics are the worst; I can easily imagine economists coming up with a solution like this for other fields and refusing to use it themselves.
posted by kaibutsu at 8:10 AM on August 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Job forums have some extra tendency to be awful because all of the job seekers are in an ultra high stress state, prone to overthinking things that don't actually matter (such as unvetted anonymous forum posts) and/or acting out (by channeling their bad interview experiences into a budding romance with white supremacy).
I feel like a bar and a lottery could go a long way towards depressurizing the job process (so that everyone who passes the bar has an equal shot at a job), though a raw lottery would do little to correct for the existing iniquities... and elite academics are the worst; I can easily imagine economists coming up with a solution like this for other fields and refusing to use it themselves.
posted by kaibutsu at 8:10 AM on August 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
The sample messages sure don’t seem to be much to do with job seeking.
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on August 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on August 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
The blog post that eiras shared makes my point much more eloquently than i managed.
"EJMR, in its toxic final form, allowed thousands of depressed, angry tapeworms to find community and feed each other. To affirm the belief festering within each of them that they were cheated. That they would have gotten the job, published, admitted, invited, tenure. That they would have won just one more round, and risen just one more level, if it wasn’t for them. The cheaters."
posted by kaibutsu at 8:16 AM on August 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
"EJMR, in its toxic final form, allowed thousands of depressed, angry tapeworms to find community and feed each other. To affirm the belief festering within each of them that they were cheated. That they would have gotten the job, published, admitted, invited, tenure. That they would have won just one more round, and risen just one more level, if it wasn’t for them. The cheaters."
posted by kaibutsu at 8:16 AM on August 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ugh, DrMew, I am so sorry for your mentee and you. As a person at an academic institution who has worked closely with graduate students to build their professional lives and seen a large portion of them go onto success in their fields, I'm aghast and horrified at the idea of "tar pits" that seemingly exist to stall graduates as they make that difficult leap from school to profession, and even more so when the animus is directed at students who have already suffered discrimination and undercutting by academia.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:40 AM on August 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:40 AM on August 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not just 4chan for academics, but for economics academics. Which is sort of like the difference between "x for artists" and "x for people who enjoy eating crayons."
There are clones for a few social science fields, and as Dr. Mew’s story shows, they aren’t really any better.
posted by atoxyl at 9:20 AM on August 7, 2023
There are clones for a few social science fields, and as Dr. Mew’s story shows, they aren’t really any better.
posted by atoxyl at 9:20 AM on August 7, 2023
"I underestimated how quickly ChatGPT would become an all-purpose oracle"
Hmmm... ChatGPT as the Internet Oracle, complete with woodchucks and the Staff of Zot. Worth a try.
(Does knowing about the Oracle date me too much?)
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 9:24 AM on August 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hmmm... ChatGPT as the Internet Oracle, complete with woodchucks and the Staff of Zot. Worth a try.
(Does knowing about the Oracle date me too much?)
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 9:24 AM on August 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
not impressed by economists, but some are not trash I guess?
Here are two whose work I like:
Richard Denniss
Gary Stevenson
posted by flabdablet at 9:24 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here are two whose work I like:
Richard Denniss
Gary Stevenson
posted by flabdablet at 9:24 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
if it makes anyone feel better (it shouldn't), there's also an ableistly named website called Blind that is essentially the same thing but for tech. my understanding is that sites like these exist for recruiters and HR who keep track of churn inside of tech companies with good talent - I'm not sure how that translates to academia but I'm sure there's some kind of financial incentive driving the creation of such sites
also what a hilarious use of ChatGPT as a 'neutral observer' when there's a huge conversation right now about inherent, systemic biases encoded into AI models due to our society being racist, sexist, etc as a default
posted by paimapi at 9:26 AM on August 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
also what a hilarious use of ChatGPT as a 'neutral observer' when there's a huge conversation right now about inherent, systemic biases encoded into AI models due to our society being racist, sexist, etc as a default
posted by paimapi at 9:26 AM on August 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
EJMR fucking sucks. That's my professional opinion as an economist.
People who defend it basically point out that (1) EJMR has enabled pointing out some research and professional misconduct in the past (2) people need to be able to ask for information anonymously (e.g., "has this place made offers", "what's the wait time for this journal").
Some of this needs to be addressed by the gatekeepers of the profession; transparent job postings and updates for candidates, journals that are clear about their time to publication, etc. But the damning thing about the Yale presentation was not just "EJMR sucks" -- that point was obvious, and had been systematically documented by Alice Wu in her undergrad thesis that got some attention (Justin Wolfers wrote about it in a NYT blog post, iirc). Rather, it was that many of the posts can be traced to the elite institutions of the profession -- including participants at the NBER conference, which is the most in-group-y clubby part of the US profession there is (it's invitation only to attend as a non-NBER affiliate, and to join the NBER requires some internal advocacy. This was the point of the section of the paper that talks about the Royal Sonesta; that's the hotel the NBER books for its summer conferences). The clubbiness of the top end of the profession protects the people who think and say stuff like this (and advise the next generation of edgelords) and creates the ostensible justification for anonymous forums like it. Really, nothing about this is that surprising, just a depressing confirmation that some of the Big Names are real assholes, and there's another set of Big Names who are basically passive in the face of this stuff. (And others who are not, to be clear. But the fact that most of the conversation is directed by, and under the control of, people at top 10 institutions is a real shame).
on preview: the common denominator in EJMR, the sociology version that I'm assuming DrMew is referring to, and the poli sci version, is that they're all owned by the same pseudonymous asshole who seems to make money off of advertising.
posted by dismas at 9:29 AM on August 7, 2023 [21 favorites]
People who defend it basically point out that (1) EJMR has enabled pointing out some research and professional misconduct in the past (2) people need to be able to ask for information anonymously (e.g., "has this place made offers", "what's the wait time for this journal").
Some of this needs to be addressed by the gatekeepers of the profession; transparent job postings and updates for candidates, journals that are clear about their time to publication, etc. But the damning thing about the Yale presentation was not just "EJMR sucks" -- that point was obvious, and had been systematically documented by Alice Wu in her undergrad thesis that got some attention (Justin Wolfers wrote about it in a NYT blog post, iirc). Rather, it was that many of the posts can be traced to the elite institutions of the profession -- including participants at the NBER conference, which is the most in-group-y clubby part of the US profession there is (it's invitation only to attend as a non-NBER affiliate, and to join the NBER requires some internal advocacy. This was the point of the section of the paper that talks about the Royal Sonesta; that's the hotel the NBER books for its summer conferences). The clubbiness of the top end of the profession protects the people who think and say stuff like this (and advise the next generation of edgelords) and creates the ostensible justification for anonymous forums like it. Really, nothing about this is that surprising, just a depressing confirmation that some of the Big Names are real assholes, and there's another set of Big Names who are basically passive in the face of this stuff. (And others who are not, to be clear. But the fact that most of the conversation is directed by, and under the control of, people at top 10 institutions is a real shame).
on preview: the common denominator in EJMR, the sociology version that I'm assuming DrMew is referring to, and the poli sci version, is that they're all owned by the same pseudonymous asshole who seems to make money off of advertising.
posted by dismas at 9:29 AM on August 7, 2023 [21 favorites]
also what a hilarious use of ChatGPT as a 'neutral observer' when there's a huge conversation right now about inherent, systemic biases encoded into AI models due to our society being racist, sexist, etc as a default
I think you can assume that’s a feature not a bug for anyone pulling this maneuver.
posted by Artw at 9:39 AM on August 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think you can assume that’s a feature not a bug for anyone pulling this maneuver.
posted by Artw at 9:39 AM on August 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
on preview: the common denominator in EJMR, the sociology version that I'm assuming DrMew is referring to, and the poli sci version, is that they're all owned by the same pseudonymous asshole who seems to make money off of advertising.
Oh wow. Did not realize that. What are the odds that his anonymity scheme for those other sites was any smarter? I had assumed that the infosec aspect of this was parochial/specific to Econ, but I guess not.
posted by eirias at 9:40 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh wow. Did not realize that. What are the odds that his anonymity scheme for those other sites was any smarter? I had assumed that the infosec aspect of this was parochial/specific to Econ, but I guess not.
posted by eirias at 9:40 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Blind has some similar problems to EJMR when it comes to user activity based on my limited interactions with Blind.
The point of places like Blind is data mining the users and then selling it to anyone they can find, so yes HR can use it to track churn but also they can use it for the usual anti-competitive practices of keeping salaries low.
For EJMR it's an informal job board so the primary purpose is gatekeeping to reinforce existing inequalities.
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 9:54 AM on August 7, 2023
The point of places like Blind is data mining the users and then selling it to anyone they can find, so yes HR can use it to track churn but also they can use it for the usual anti-competitive practices of keeping salaries low.
For EJMR it's an informal job board so the primary purpose is gatekeeping to reinforce existing inequalities.
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 9:54 AM on August 7, 2023
I also heard about the toxicity of EJMR ten years ago... Folks in the comments of Marginal Revolution called it a cesspool which should tell you something, because the MR comments section is also notoriously awful.
posted by subdee at 10:08 AM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by subdee at 10:08 AM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also hilarious in the shocked indignant response is the expectation that their anonymity would be preserved based on their positions of power and privilege. If the repeated security breaches at open sewers like Parler (previously, previouslier) should have taught them, acting like a toxic anonymous asshole on the net is going to get any number of technically-capable actors motivated to uncover your identity. Didn't even connect through a VPN, the self-deluded fuckheads. They squeal about their precious free speech but are too chickenshit to stand up and own their toxic opinions and face the rightful consequences. On the upside, with any luck EJMR will be awash with news of lots of academic job openings very soon!
posted by hangashore at 10:15 AM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 10:15 AM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
website called Blind that is essentially the same thing but for tech
One thing about Blind is that it ties users to an institution as a “feature,” I suppose to insure that they are real Meta insiders or whatever, while allowing them to be individually pseudonymous. So in a way it’s the opposite but yes people are very unpleasant. Perhaps a bit less openly racist and sexist (not to say that they are never openly racist or sexist) but unbearably focused on pay and prestige.
posted by atoxyl at 10:30 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
One thing about Blind is that it ties users to an institution as a “feature,” I suppose to insure that they are real Meta insiders or whatever, while allowing them to be individually pseudonymous. So in a way it’s the opposite but yes people are very unpleasant. Perhaps a bit less openly racist and sexist (not to say that they are never openly racist or sexist) but unbearably focused on pay and prestige.
posted by atoxyl at 10:30 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
new project idea:
Wire up chatGPT to write comments reminding people that EJMR is toxic and nothing on it is to be trusted or believed, and then post those comments, say, hourly on the discussion board.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:31 AM on August 7, 2023
Wire up chatGPT to write comments reminding people that EJMR is toxic and nothing on it is to be trusted or believed, and then post those comments, say, hourly on the discussion board.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:31 AM on August 7, 2023
Bold of you to assume it’s not already full of spam and trolling.
posted by atoxyl at 10:54 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 10:54 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
One thing about Blind is that it ties users to an institution as a “feature,”
The general boards are 100 percent toxic. The corporate exclusive boards are tamer, though apparently people who've changed jobs find my current employer board boring and atypically hinged. Conversations about whether to pursue the management or technical promotion track, typical refresher packages, layoff rumors, finger pointing about poor product reputations, debates about RTO, perf review cycle, and inquiries about team culture in other parts of the company.
unbearably focused on pay and prestige.
I think one of the key selling points is salary transparency, which is why people are pretty aggro about the whole "TC or we don't answer your question." The "prestige" thing seems to have become a meme, but only on the general boards.
posted by pwnguin at 1:25 PM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The general boards are 100 percent toxic. The corporate exclusive boards are tamer, though apparently people who've changed jobs find my current employer board boring and atypically hinged. Conversations about whether to pursue the management or technical promotion track, typical refresher packages, layoff rumors, finger pointing about poor product reputations, debates about RTO, perf review cycle, and inquiries about team culture in other parts of the company.
unbearably focused on pay and prestige.
I think one of the key selling points is salary transparency, which is why people are pretty aggro about the whole "TC or we don't answer your question." The "prestige" thing seems to have become a meme, but only on the general boards.
posted by pwnguin at 1:25 PM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think one of the key selling points is salary transparency, which is why people are pretty aggro about the whole "TC or we don't answer your question."
I take that as sort of a self-aware meme about the fixation on money, but it also seems like it’s part of a culture that creates an incentive for people to exaggerate their salaries, defeating the purpose? Whereas the likes of levels.fyi, soliciting anonymous comp data and just presenting it in a helpful fashion, seem like they are doing more good here.
posted by atoxyl at 1:36 PM on August 7, 2023
I take that as sort of a self-aware meme about the fixation on money, but it also seems like it’s part of a culture that creates an incentive for people to exaggerate their salaries, defeating the purpose? Whereas the likes of levels.fyi, soliciting anonymous comp data and just presenting it in a helpful fashion, seem like they are doing more good here.
posted by atoxyl at 1:36 PM on August 7, 2023
“Incentive” in the sense that with people slinging these big TC numbers around in every conversation, it becomes sort of embarrassing to post if yours doesn’t stack up. I’m glad for the movement towards pay transparency in the industry, it just feels like a bit of a dick measuring contest the way Blind does it, even if they do it with a wink.
posted by atoxyl at 1:45 PM on August 7, 2023
posted by atoxyl at 1:45 PM on August 7, 2023
They squeal about their precious free speech but are too chickenshit to stand up and own their toxic opinions and face the rightful consequences.
This is the point of the bullshit concept of "self-censorship" - to define the consequences of free speech as an attack on free speech.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:18 PM on August 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is the point of the bullshit concept of "self-censorship" - to define the consequences of free speech as an attack on free speech.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:18 PM on August 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Skipping to the technical part, this shows how important a good cryptographic design is. SHA-1 is a fine hash, but this design is using it badly enough to expose most of a forum's IP addresses. The "million dollar" bet against finding their IP is because the function isn't reversible and the public hash is short. It's an easy trap to fall into, especially a decade ago when complete address searches were very expensive. The problem is: computers keep getting faster, IPs aren't random, and if you post more than once the hashes probably only have one overlapping address.
If they added a secret per-topic salt this entire attack falls apart with basically no extra storage or computation. Any salt at all would have considerably limited what they were able to do without inside knowledge. There's something to be said for humility and defense-in-depth.
I've heard proposals about hashing SSN's to protect them in transport, and it's always this sort of thing. SHA-1 on an SSN is no better than the SSN itself. You could add a random-but-known salt to prevent rainbow tables, and a computationally intensive hash (e.g. Argon 2) to prevent quick searches, but it's a fundamentally weak design. You can't hash small sets: if you can detect a collision you've reversed the hash. The only way this works is with encryption.
posted by netowl at 8:38 PM on August 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
If they added a secret per-topic salt this entire attack falls apart with basically no extra storage or computation. Any salt at all would have considerably limited what they were able to do without inside knowledge. There's something to be said for humility and defense-in-depth.
I've heard proposals about hashing SSN's to protect them in transport, and it's always this sort of thing. SHA-1 on an SSN is no better than the SSN itself. You could add a random-but-known salt to prevent rainbow tables, and a computationally intensive hash (e.g. Argon 2) to prevent quick searches, but it's a fundamentally weak design. You can't hash small sets: if you can detect a collision you've reversed the hash. The only way this works is with encryption.
posted by netowl at 8:38 PM on August 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
If they added a secret per-topic salt this entire attack falls apart
So they're salty but only because they didn't use enough salt?
posted by clawsoon at 4:43 PM on August 8, 2023
So they're salty but only because they didn't use enough salt?
posted by clawsoon at 4:43 PM on August 8, 2023
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