Trump Indictment #4 - This Time It's RICO
August 14, 2023 8:33 PM Subscribe

98 Pages, 19 Defendants, 41 Charges. Now with RICO.

posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock (1050 comments total) 87 users marked this as a favorite

I like presidents who don't get indicted.
posted by neuron at 8:36 PM on August 14, 2023 [77 favorites]

He's getting nailed for tweets! FINALLY!
posted by Catblack at 8:36 PM on August 14, 2023 [24 favorites]

Meanwhile over in the comments pit at Fox News, the reality distortion field is throbbing so hard right now
posted by Doleful Creature at 8:38 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]

RICO backstory
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:40 PM on August 14, 2023 [15 favorites]

Fun fact: Not only can the president not pardon state charges, under Georgia law neither can the governor. Only the state parole board can pardon... and only five years after the sentence has been served.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:41 PM on August 14, 2023 [156 favorites]

Furthermore, trump dēlenda est
posted by oldnumberseven at 8:41 PM on August 14, 2023 [28 favorites]

It might be worth noting that the GA RICO statute has a 5 year minimum and the governor doesn't have pardoning power in Georgia, that power being handed to the State Board of Pardons and Paroles in 1943.

If Trump gets convicted he's doing state prison time.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:42 PM on August 14, 2023 [69 favorites]

Incredible. Does he just get one set of indictments a week now? I can’t even imagine someone becoming more indicted.
posted by dis_integration at 8:44 PM on August 14, 2023 [12 favorites]

That is a fun fact. Thanks, Rhaomi!
posted by Songdog at 8:44 PM on August 14, 2023 [12 favorites]

Ken "Popehat" White (YT 11 seconds)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:45 PM on August 14, 2023 [21 favorites]

The Stifling Heat in My Georgia Prison
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:45 PM on August 14, 2023 [12 favorites]

Should've read below the fold...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:46 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]

The indictment is great bed-time reading. Couldn't have happened to a better bunch of folks.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:47 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

RICO Suave.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:47 PM on August 14, 2023 [43 favorites]

If it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:49 PM on August 14, 2023 [17 favorites]

We're gonna win so much, you may even get tired of winning. And you'll say, 'Please, please. It's too much winning.'
posted by alex_skazat at 8:49 PM on August 14, 2023 [24 favorites]

He should sit in county jail until trial.
posted by interogative mood at 8:50 PM on August 14, 2023 [35 favorites]

If Trump gets convicted he's doing state prison time.

One can only hope.

If he's able to run for president:

If he wins prior to final verdict, would they be able to make him serve, or would it be put off until after he leaves office
- Assuming he's willing to leave office

If he does not win the presidency how would the Secret Service handle this, as part of their protection of former POTUSes? Would he be in general population, solitary, or some form of house arrest?

Honestly, between the inditements, levels of government, potential for being found in contempt, the primaries, the presidential campaign, the shitshow we can expect should he lose (Big Lie 2: Electric Boogaloo), and his general health and age, there are all sorts of crazy potential outcomes. Break out your Visio: it's the flowchart from hell!
posted by MrGuilt at 8:52 PM on August 14, 2023 [26 favorites]

I keep reading Harrison Floyd as Harrison Ford....
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 8:53 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

State of Georgia RICOvfefe law is broader than federal law.

2010 Georgia Code
TITLE 16 - CRIMES AND OFFENSES
CHAPTER 14 - RACKETEER INFLUENCED AND CORRUPT ORGANIZATIONS

Graham: Trump’s fate ‘should be decided at the ballot box’ (the hill)
He also questioned why a statewide official was not investigating the case instead of a county prosecutor.

“Are we gonna let county prosecutors start prosecuting the President of the United States, the former President of the United States?

Are we gonna? If you don't want to find out if a county can do this, best not fuck around in that county.

Lindsey, this is your wake up call. It's CYA time. We all know you have the loyalty of a moebius strip, just do another one of your famous back flips.

Take a deal. You picked a weird moment to stick to your guns.
posted by adept256 at 8:53 PM on August 14, 2023 [34 favorites]

Becoming easier to enumerate crimes TFG didn’t commit. To his credit 18 USC 711 and 18 USC 711a, which make it a crime to use Smokey Bear, Woodsy Owl or their slogans, “Only you can create forest fires” and “Give a Hoot, Don’t Pollute,” for commercial purposes, are not included in any of his indictments.

edit : Allegedly commit
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:57 PM on August 14, 2023 [27 favorites]

Surely this!
posted by piyushnz at 8:57 PM on August 14, 2023 [22 favorites]

The indictment says the fake electors placed in the US Mail fake elector certificates... which seems like a whole bunch of additional potential federal crimes.
posted by theory at 8:58 PM on August 14, 2023 [29 favorites]

Assuming he's willing to leave office

Even if he gets a second term (god forbid) there's no legal way around the 27th.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:59 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

If he does not win the presidency how would the Secret Service handle this, as part of their protection of former POTUSes?

This keeps getting brought up (understandably, since it's never happened before) but SS agents have shifts, just like prison guards. It'd be an easy, if boring, assignment.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:01 PM on August 14, 2023 [27 favorites]

One thing about my current Wars of the Roses kick that hit me is how any society can go off the rails when engineered speciousness aka bullshit becomes the coin of the realm; the 15th century case: the Duke of Gloucester's claims that the late Edward IV's heirs were not legitimate and therefore he himself succeed as king, plus the general pattern of treason accusations against anyone you wanted to remove from the scene (in the Stalinesque 'No man, no problem...').

Also Craig Mazin's: "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." (one would hope)
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:02 PM on August 14, 2023 [31 favorites]

This is the happiest day of my life.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:03 PM on August 14, 2023 [15 favorites]

>Lindsey, this is your wake up call.

Oh, he's had a lot of calls.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:05 PM on August 14, 2023 [7 favorites]

Georgia does have a work release/home confinement program.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:06 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

Even if he gets a second term (god forbid) there's no legal way around the 27th.

On one hand, I wrote that a bit tongue in cheek.

On the other hand, there were plenty of cases of Trump talking about a third term:

He deserves additional time because they spied on his campaign
He said he would negotiate a third term
His supporters may demand it

Not saying it would be legit or he wouldn't be carried out of the White House. But given how many things I thought were unthinkable in this country have happen due to that man, I allow for a larger window of possibility.
posted by MrGuilt at 9:06 PM on August 14, 2023 [16 favorites]

Rudy Giuliani, of all people, getting hit with a RICO charge deserves all the chef's kisses.
posted by theory at 9:06 PM on August 14, 2023 [123 favorites]

Some nights I go to sleep and imagine what our lives would be like, would have been like had we collectively not had the groundwater of our souls poisoned by this dreck. To not know so much of fascism and the Paradox of Tolerance. To not know the difference between Treason and treason. To be squishier and less mean. To be less wise and so younger. Good dreams
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:09 PM on August 14, 2023 [109 favorites]

Georgia does have a work release/home confinement program.

GA's RICO is very tough and requires some prison time.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:10 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]

Catblack: "He's getting nailed for tweets! FINALLY!"

Literally!

Act 22
       On or about the 3rd day of December 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP caused to be
tweeted from the Twitter account @RealDonaldTrump, "Georgia hearings now on @OANN.
Amazing!" This was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

posted by Rhaomi at 9:12 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

If he does not win the presidency how would the Secret Service handle this, as part of their protection of former POTUSes? Would he be in general population, solitary, or some form of house arrest?

ADX Florence, I think, for the federal charges. The security needs would be unprecedented.
posted by praemunire at 9:14 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

This keeps getting brought up (understandably, since it's never happened before) but SS agents have shifts, just like prison guards. It'd be an easy, if boring, assignment.

Not if "hey, bring some cokes in please." means smuggling a can of coke up your ass.
posted by adept256 at 9:14 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

sorry mods I'm in a mood.
posted by adept256 at 9:18 PM on August 14, 2023 [12 favorites]

A week ago, noted Konstitutional Scholar Mark Levin declared that everything being done in accusing and indicting Trump is so partisan and illegal that if elected in 2024, Trump should declare that the Constitution's Supremacy Clause means that a POTUS can pardon state convictions after all, and pardon himself for everything.

Which is hilarious on many levels, and telling as to how low the rhetoric from the right will stoop between now and the near future.

Catch-22 in its most primal form still resonates; "They can do anything that we can't stop them from doing." We are now at the stage in which what can be stopped will be tested as never before.

I hope we win.
posted by delfin at 9:19 PM on August 14, 2023 [48 favorites]

I'm in a mood

Me too! A great one!!
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 9:20 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]

From CNN: Fulton County DA said she intends to try all 19 defendants together

Not sure if this is the worst idea in the world, or the greatest. But wow, is that ever going to be a spectacle. Not enough Yakkity Sax in the world.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:20 PM on August 14, 2023 [41 favorites]

I mean that method of smuggling is part of an inhumane prison system, isn't a joke, and I regret typing that.
posted by adept256 at 9:23 PM on August 14, 2023 [19 favorites]

SURELY THIS²
posted by Rash at 9:28 PM on August 14, 2023 [21 favorites]

SURELY THIS2

Wow, that’s tiresome.
posted by dragstroke at 9:34 PM on August 14, 2023 [25 favorites]

It is still my running assumption that Trump never sees day 1 inside a cell but boy does it look like a bunch of his mates are completely fucked.
posted by Artw at 9:34 PM on August 14, 2023 [11 favorites]

‘He’s going to be very surprised’: Georgia DA Fani Willis prepares to face off with Trump From The Guardian

It's interesting that Mark Meadows is on the indictment here, whereas he is absent from the federal indictments.
posted by mumimor at 9:37 PM on August 14, 2023 [15 favorites]

To add to the schaudenfreude -

This evening, Hilary Clinton was making a pre-scheduled appearance on Rachel Maddow's show. And as luck would have it - she went on JUST after the charges had been announced.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:39 PM on August 14, 2023 [26 favorites]

I knew about the lies and threats towards election worker Ruby Freeman (thanks, Jan. 6th committee!), but the indictment of Stephen Lee and Harrison Floyd (acts 87-89) introduced me to a whole new creepy facet to that affair:

Georgia probe into Trump examines chaplain's role in election meddling

Georgia election worker Ruby Freeman didn’t recognize the man who banged on her door. Terrified, she called 911. She had reason to fear.

By the morning of Dec. 15, 2020, when she saw the stranger's red sedan parked in her driveway, she had received hundreds of threats from supporters of former U.S. President Donald Trump. Two weeks earlier, Trump’s campaign had falsely accused Freeman and her daughter, Wandrea “Shaye” Moss, of pulling fake ballots from suitcases at Atlanta's State Farm Arena to rig the 2020 election for Democrat Joe Biden.

The man had already passed a message to Freeman through a neighbor: Freeman's time was running out, he said, and he could help her and her daughter. When a police officer responded and questioned the man outside Freeman’s home, he introduced himself as Steve Lee, a police chaplain from Illinois.

Now Lee is under scrutiny in a criminal investigation into alleged election interference by Trump and his allies in Georgia, according to a source with direct knowledge of the probe.

Lee played a central role in a failed effort to pressure Freeman to admit to an election fraud that never occurred, according to a Reuters examination of police body camera footage and court documents, as well as interviews with key participants. After being rebuffed by Freeman, Lee contacted Harrison Floyd, who had run outreach to black voters for Trump’s 2020 campaign. Floyd arranged another visit to Freeman on Jan. 4, 2021, this time from Chicago publicist Trevian Kutti, who threatened Freeman with jail unless she provided information on election fraud, Reuters reported last December.

On that note, godspeed and god bless to all the grand jurors mentioned by name on page 9 of the indictment. I don't think even mobsters have had reason to threaten grand jurors after an indictment has been unsealed, but I wouldn't put anything past Trump or his cultists.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:40 PM on August 14, 2023 [62 favorites]

Wow, that’s tiresome.

We can have our own ElonZuck cage fight about which one of us finds it more tiresome, but as a genetic sad clown, I agree with the original commenter that it is necessary.
posted by Rat Spatula at 9:45 PM on August 14, 2023 [17 favorites]

I have been assessing the hats in the house for edibility in case Trump ever spends a single day in actual prison. Confined to a palatial estate, entertaining streams of wealthy Russian friends is far more likely.
posted by pompomtom at 9:46 PM on August 14, 2023 [7 favorites]

The DA said she wanted to try everybody at once, which seems like it would be a mess. But maybe the only way to get it all done without dragging it out for a decade.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:48 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

All I wanted was the 14th amendment applied, but on this trajectory it very well could be a death penalty case.

Wow
posted by The Power Nap at 9:58 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

Pouring one out for all the silent c's tonight.
posted by newdaddy at 9:59 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

From CNN: Fulton County DA said she intends to try all 19 defendants together

Not sure if this is the worst idea in the world, or the greatest. But wow, is that ever going to be a spectacle. Not enough Yakkity Sax in the world.

I'm picturing the courtroom from What's Up, Doc
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:59 PM on August 14, 2023 [13 favorites]

I can't imagine him spending four hours in a cell before he spills his kompramat on every other Republican.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:00 PM on August 14, 2023 [27 favorites]

SURELY THIS¹⁹

It's new - It's improved - It's 19-fold as tiresome as the original. Yet also, 19-fold as effective. Get it while you can!
posted by flug at 10:06 PM on August 14, 2023 [19 favorites]

Reminder that the security around the Fulton County courthouse was beefed up (barriers placed, roads closed) in the last two weeks; on March 11, 2005, a convicted murderer who was on trial for rape escaped custody and murdered four people (the presiding judge, the court reporter, a deputy, and a federal agent) in the courthouse.

So, yeah, I can see the appeal of trying "The Greasy 19" together.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:07 PM on August 14, 2023 [10 favorites]

No hairstylist, no spray tan, no Diet Coke, no KFC, no adderall. And no phone. He will be transformed.
posted by mumimor at 10:09 PM on August 14, 2023 [31 favorites]

does donald trump take adderall??
posted by wowenthusiast at 10:13 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

the English language doesn't have a good verb for what DJT does with the substance
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:17 PM on August 14, 2023 [14 favorites]

Keisha N. Blain: "Given Trump's history of hurling virulent insults at Black women, the fact that Willis is leading the latest effort to convict him must be especially infuriating for him."
posted by theory at 10:30 PM on August 14, 2023 [39 favorites]

It is still my running assumption that Trump never sees day 1 inside a cell but boy does it look like a bunch of his mates are completely fucked.
I agree - anyone that seriously thinks Trump will see jail time is, unfortunately, kidding themselves. I think a more likely scenario is that he either wins or loses the next presidential election and takes office regardless of the outcome. He'll then find a way to convince enough people that he's pardoned himself and all is now right with the world.
posted by dg at 10:31 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

I support the writers' strike but it's a damn shame I won't get to see Seth Meyers or John Oliver commenting at length on this...
posted by mmoncur at 10:32 PM on August 14, 2023 [47 favorites]

Daily Kos post on the judge assigned, Scott McAfee:

All of Judge McAfee’s professional experience appears to be as a prosecutor — an ADA in Barrow County, a Senior ADA in Fulton County, an Assistant U.S. Attorney in the Northern District of Georgia (where Atlanta is located), and Inspector General of the State of Georgia, appointed by Governor Brian Kemp in 2021. From a press release, it appears he was appointed to the bench by Gov. Kemp, and from his campaign website, it appears he is running for election in 2024.

I don’t practice in Georgia, and I know nothing about Judge McAfee, so what follows is just my speculation. He has a strong law-and-order background. He must be a Republican and is a favorite of Gov. Kemp, who is himself no fan of Donald Trump. Judge McAfee is running for election in a heavily Democratic County. That creates a strong incentive to conduct fair and even-handed proceedings. What worries me is that he is he is about 35 years old, has been a lawyer for only 10 years, and a judge for all of 7 months. He’s about to be under a nationwide microscope, just like Judges Cannon, Chutkan and Marchan. I wish him strength, fortitude, wisdom, patience and good judgment.

posted by Rhaomi at 10:36 PM on August 14, 2023 [31 favorites]

Turns out Rudy can fail.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:38 PM on August 14, 2023 [47 favorites]

>From CNN: Fulton County DA said she intends to try all 19 defendants together

Not sure if this is the worst idea in the world, or the greatest.

It's certainly what I've been afraid of as Georgia dragged this out. There's no way this trial will be finished before the election.

They had a very straightforward tape recording of Trump attempting to get an election official to commit fraud on his behalf. They could have gone to court with that the next day. Instead it's buried inside of this monstrosity which will still be being litigated five years from now.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:52 PM on August 14, 2023 [19 favorites]

The tape of Ruby giving her daughter something. It's impossible to see what it is, but if you had to guess, is it:

- A usb drive designed to hack voting machines
- A vial of heroin or cocaine
- A mint

It's likely the usb drive right? Sweet old ladies are the 1337est of hackers. But she is black, so it could be heroin or cocaine.

If you're not Rudy Guiliani, it's a grandmother sharing a candy with her daughter. Quite endearing really, she loves her kid.

Rudy sees a tape of two black women near the ballots, assumes they're criminals, and ruins their lives.

The facts about stop-and-frisk in New York City

It's the same damn thing.
posted by adept256 at 10:52 PM on August 14, 2023 [33 favorites]

GA's RICO is very tough and requires some prison time.

If it was found that Russia helped Trump and his people hack Coffee County election systems, I hope there are federal capital treason charges. Fuck prison for these traitors.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:58 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

Welcome to Atlanta
posted by eustatic at 11:02 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

From the Dec. 2022 Kemp judicial appt. press release Rhaomi linked: "Scott F. McAfee currently leads the Office of the Inspector General. As Inspector General, he is responsible for investigating allegations of fraud, waste, and abuse in the Executive Branch of state government. Prior to accepting that position, McAfee spent his legal career in public service, working the last eight years as an Assistant United States Attorney (AUSA) for the Department of Justice in the Northern District of Georgia and as an Assistant District Attorney in Fulton County. As an AUSA, he investigated and prosecuted major drug trafficking organizations, fraud, and illegal firearms possession."

Judge McAfee's standing Trial Management Order for criminal cases & standing Case Management Order for criminal cases, from February.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:03 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

Axios: "Georgia law states that a judge is authorized to release a defendant on bail if they pose 'no significant risk of intimidating witnesses or otherwise obstructing the administration of justice.'"

I'm not holding my breath on this being enforced. But I cackled anyway.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:10 PM on August 14, 2023 [12 favorites]

I agree - anyone that seriously thinks Trump will see jail time is, unfortunately, kidding themselves.

Why? Everything Trump has done has been unprecedented, doing time would just add one more item to that list.
Sometimes rich and powerful people go to jail, although it is not a frequent occurrence. A lot of his associates have already done time, and a lot more are heading there now. At some point it will seem absurd if he goes free.

I read a blog somewhere about what they do in other countries when they jail presidents, and it seems they make special detention centers or cordon off a wing of an existing facility so they can keep them away from other inmates.
posted by mumimor at 11:14 PM on August 14, 2023 [39 favorites]

They had a very straightforward tape recording of Trump attempting to get an election official to commit fraud on his behalf. They could have gone to court with that the next day. Instead it's buried inside of this monstrosity which will still be being litigated five years from now.

2016 Georgia Code
Title 21 - Elections
Chapter 2 - Elections and Primaries Generally
Article 15 - Miscellaneous Offenses
§ 21-2-604. Criminal solicitation to commit election fraud; penalties

(a) (1) A person commits the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the first degree when, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony under this article, he or she solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct.

(2) A person commits the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the second degree when, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a misdemeanor under this article, he or she solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct.

(b) (1) A person convicted of the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the first degree shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than three years.

(2) A person convicted of the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the second degree shall be punished as for a misdemeanor.

(c) It is no defense to a prosecution for criminal solicitation to commit election fraud that the person solicited could not be guilty of the crime solicited.

(d) The provisions of subsections (a) through (c) of this Code section are cumulative and shall not supersede any other penal law of this state.

'Just find 11480 votes' was enough for this to stick.

One reason I've heard that the 6 co-conspirators in the federal case are unindicted is so the trial will be faster. That's coming, but Trump first.

I really want to see everyone with their fingerprints on this get what they deserve, but seperated like Smith has done. Get him for the phone call first, that's a slam dunk. And get it done fast.
posted by adept256 at 11:17 PM on August 14, 2023 [13 favorites]

Yes, I would like a glass of schadenfreude to start, along with your schadenfreude appetizer and for the main course I would like the schadenfreude served over schadenfreude, please, and for dessert... the schadenfreude!!

Because he was so involved in the mobbed up construction industry in the 1980s New York the former guy knows damn well what a cudgel RICO can be, and my guess is that he is terrified in a way he has never been before, which is good.

Ideally the jail cell door slams and we are finally rid of him for good. Ideally.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 11:19 PM on August 14, 2023 [30 favorites]

I agree - anyone that seriously thinks Trump will see jail time is, unfortunately, kidding themselves.

Trump is gambling everything on winning the 2024 general election, whereupon he would give himself and his co-conspirators a blanket pardon from federal charges, which he cannot do against state charges. I suspect that everything that his legal teams do will reflect this overall strategy, including trying to move this particular state-level criminal case to a federal court. Our country's democracy may live or die on what happens in Georgia, which in comparison with New York seems serious about prosecuting a case against this tyrant.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:27 PM on August 14, 2023 [13 favorites]

I understand there is received Internet wisdom that more defendants equals more charges equals more days on the calendar equals Trump wins in 2024 equals the Republic is doomed.

And surely, that chain of events is a possibility among possibilities. Each new day, I despair again.

But let's also start with the idea that Fani Willis knows something about what she is doing here.
posted by kensington314 at 11:27 PM on August 14, 2023 [54 favorites]

“And for the lady, an after-dinner glass of your finest schadenfreude.”
posted by cyndigo at 11:30 PM on August 14, 2023 [10 favorites]

I agree - anyone that seriously thinks Trump will see jail time is, unfortunately, kidding themselves.
Why?
We're talking about someone that managed, with little notice, to mobilise a mob large enough to take over the Capitol with just a few choice sentences. Putting Trump in jail would surely set off a nuclear-level reaction. Even if he wasn't sufficiently (and inexplicably) resistant to any sort of punishment to start with, any judicial process runs with the knowledge that actual serious civil unrest would be a certain result of any jail sentence. On top of all that, there are sufficient people in power that worship the ground he waddles over that I doubt he will ever even be convicted of anything.

TL/DR: I don't trust the US legal system to do its job here.
posted by dg at 11:40 PM on August 14, 2023 [11 favorites]

whereupon he would give himself and his co-conspirators a blanket pardon from federal charges,
Would he really though? Pardon his co-conspirators? Mmmm, only for a price.

Also, I imagine jail is not anywhere near anything he is thinking - it‘s the pathology on which he is built - always forward, never consider any results other than the ones you want and fight like all-mighty for those.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:40 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

To provide some context behind why federal capital treason charges may be appropriate:

Exclusive: Georgia prosecutors have messages showing Trump’s team is behind voting system breach
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:49 PM on August 14, 2023 [14 favorites]

I don't know about Trump being able to summon a mob a second time. Word will be getting around about what happened to the last mob. Also, he will have the stench of losing on him.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:34 AM on August 15, 2023 [24 favorites]

Perhaps they can use civil asset forfeiture to go after Trump’s money.
posted by interogative mood at 12:57 AM on August 15, 2023 [16 favorites]

I mean, there's interesting times and then there's this.

Against the backdrop of a boiling climate and ecosystem ... it's just too painfully poetic.

As Leonard Cohen has it in his late masterpiece: "You want it darker."
posted by riverlife at 1:08 AM on August 15, 2023 [15 favorites]

I believe that GA pardons are only available AFTER you have completed your sentence and THEN have lived as a good citizen for 5 years
posted by mbo at 1:58 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

We're talking about someone that managed, with little notice, to mobilise a mob large enough to take over the Capitol with just a few choice sentences.

Two months of notice and constant backing by an entire mediasphere dedicated to propping him (and anti-government sentiment generally) up.
Remember that he tried to do the same crowd-whipping-up each time he was indicted previously and no mobs of note happened. He’s not a wizard, he’s a cog in a machine that doesn’t seem very interested in helping him anymore.
posted by Etrigan at 2:27 AM on August 15, 2023 [49 favorites]

No hairstylist, no spray tan, no Diet Coke, no KFC, no adderall. And no phone. He will be transformed.

Now I'm curious if people can get medical treatment for ADHD in prison.
posted by srboisvert at 2:27 AM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

And, if there's no consequences for illegal activities, that emboldens the fasche.

---------

From an r/politics thread, someone who rtfindictment was excitedly saying that:

They have the PAYMENT RECORDS for the voting machine breach! Wow

posted by sebastienbailard at 3:12 AM on August 15, 2023 [20 favorites]

A nuclear-level reaction would require his followers to be made of uranium rather than all-purpose flour and cream of tarter.

one way or another it's still fishin isn't it?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:24 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

I love this thread, but am completely missing the "all-purpose flour and cream of tartar" joke. Is it some kind of baking-related pun?
posted by Mogur at 3:35 AM on August 15, 2023

This is the happiest I've been in a long time. Finally, after 77 years of FA, Trump has finally hit FO.
posted by johnofjack at 3:50 AM on August 15, 2023 [12 favorites]

If I had to guess, they’re made of white bread, which doesn’t contain any fissile material.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 3:51 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

I feel like the thing I said about potential Trump mobs back in April still holds up today:

Trump's supporters don't believe in this shit. They "believe" in it, in air quotes. They "believe" it as an excuse to hoard power to themselves, as an excuse to inflict sadism and cruelty upon the "losing side," and as part of a fandom that was briefly beating other fandoms. They "believed" it because Trump publicly humiliated a bunch of Republican candidates, and then they "believed" it because he beat Hillary Clinton on the slightest technicality, and then they "believed" it because it meant they got to feast on sweet sweet liberal tears. They "believe" it the way I have a Gen Z friend who "believes" that Slenderman is real.

In other words, they believe it up to the extent that they need to believe it in order to invest themselves in the narrative they're subscribed to. And on some level, they are aware that they don't believe it beyond that point, which simply means they don't let themselves investigate their faith beyond it. Yes, there are exceptions, but by and large, the "true believers" are either serious dorks without a smidgen of charisma, or they're deeply disturbed people looking for an outlet—and while both categories of people can do tremendous amounts of damage, the bulk of alt-right enthusiasm was generated simply because they were on the winning team. Trump promised them winning, and they got winning. It didn't run much deeper than that.

Most of the so-called true believers are openly grifting their audience. Hell, Trump was grifting. But the appeal of Trump was that he promised his audience that they'd get to be in on the grift. That lasted through the 2020 election, it had a last gasp on January 6th, and there's the full-fanfic version that the QAnon people invented for themselves... but that increasingly moves away from genuine action towards self-conscious kayfabe, especially as years tick by and Hollywood actors keep not getting arrested. The "belief" is still there, but it's in more air quotes than ever. And shitty people in power still use that "belief" to justify their abuse, but they're not doing a great job of fooling pluralities of voters.

There were some serious scary actors on January 6th, but even there, the bulk of the people involved were doing tourism. They wanted to be part of something, however bullshit and futile. And then, surprise! Consequences happened. And that puts a damper, not just on the tourists, but on the serious actors too—because the serious actors could believe that they had a genuine mass of people waiting to join in their revolution, and now it's conspicuously clear that they've got a few isolated hardcore cells and not much else.

posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:53 AM on August 15, 2023 [116 favorites]

A nuclear-level reaction would require his followers to be made of uranium rather than all-purpose flour and cream of tarter.

Are you taking these indictments as an opportunity to disparage biscuits? No sir. I won't have it.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:02 AM on August 15, 2023 [26 favorites]

I had a whole thing, Tom Hanks (redacted), so I have saved my comment for a later time. But, goddamn, you nailed what I've been trying to articulate since 2016 that I'm just gonna "wait, wait, hold on, let me read you something*" during political discussions at parties going forward for at least a little while

*something being (at least parts of) your quoted comment, with attribution
posted by revmitcz at 4:02 AM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

Cream of tartar, with baking soda, is a leavening agent frequently used to make your pancakes nice and fluffy. Thus the contrast with uranium. And also uranium doesn't go well with blueberry syrup.
posted by logicpunk at 4:05 AM on August 15, 2023 [8 favorites]

As a citizen of Georgia whose electoral votes they tried to steal, I would have liked to see more of the fake electors indicted (many took immunity deals). But seeing that smug asshole David Shafer indicted is pretty fucking great.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:06 AM on August 15, 2023 [41 favorites]

It has been questioned as to why the long indictment that includes All The Things. Because that's how you get Trump on all the things, rather than just on solicitation to violate an oath of office and false statements. By charging the whole conspiracy, they can also get him on forgery, computer trespass, etc, because he was part of the overarching conspiracy.

Plus, if for some reason a jury isn't inclined to convict on the basis of what the defense will certainly try to claim was just puffery, the charges against other members of the conspiracy are far more ironclad, including physically going places, copying things they were not allowed to access in the first place, lying to courts and the grand jury itself, etc. All that shit attaches to Trump thanks to the RICO claim. (And basic conspiracy, but RICO gives another avenue as well)

I'll be fucking shocked if he manages to weasel out of of all the charges entirely, assuming he is eventually tried. Between his own conduct and the conduct of his underlings, there's just too much there.
posted by wierdo at 4:10 AM on August 15, 2023 [22 favorites]

I can’t even imagine someone becoming more indicted.

“It's like, how much more indicted could this be? And the answer is none. None more indicted.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:23 AM on August 15, 2023 [56 favorites]

If he somehow goes to jail before the election, he's gonna run from jail--they're not going to put him in ADX Florence. He won't win but it'll be too much fun for the press not to play along one last time, even if they pretend to be horrified.

Which leads to the next question--what's the political scene post Trump? His whole schtick was a problem that covered up a lot of other problems. There isn't one viable political candidate among the Republican establishment, as evidenced by Trump being 80 years old, having lost once (even if you believe he was ripped off he was still turfed out), and the target of every prosecutor in the United States and STILL being the frontrunner. Same thing with the Democrats, I'm not seeing a lot of preparation despite Biden being post Mesuthelah. Also the press, what are they going to do without Trump to talk about 24/7? And don't say big impersonal problems, nobody reads or watches for those.
posted by kingdead at 4:26 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

I support the writers' strike but it's a damn shame I won't get to see Seth Meyers or John Oliver commenting at length on this...

One of my own News Commentary Schaudenfreude sources is the British show The Last Leg - and they have already begun one of their periodic "we're a British show so our schedules are all over the place" breaks and I'm definitely gonna miss that as well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:28 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

He has called for his mob to protest/riot several times now, with no response. I think there are two reasons for that.

Another reason that I've seen is that his supporters now believe these calls to action are elaborate FBI traps. It's delicious.
posted by JoeZydeco at 4:30 AM on August 15, 2023 [49 favorites]

what exactly is to stop the republicans from further intimidating juries and officials to make this case go away? This a transnational white supremacist criminal cartel that has totally co-opted the entire republican party. The boldness of this crew told me at the time that this is so much bigger than they are making it out to be and the Rico indictment proves it true.
posted by any major dude at 4:32 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

I love this thread, but am completely missing the "all-purpose flour and cream of tartar" joke. Is it some kind of baking-related pun?

Main ingredients in homemade playdough. I left out the food coloring for obvious reasons.
posted by srboisvert at 4:39 AM on August 15, 2023 [19 favorites]

Trump's supporters don't believe in this shit. They "believe" in it, in air quotes.

The difference between lies and bullshit. The audience (generally, mostly) knows that bullshit is bullshit but pretends to believe it because it doesn’t cost them anything (in money, time, or effort).
posted by Etrigan at 4:42 AM on August 15, 2023 [11 favorites]

Is anyone else a bit shocked that the grand jury members are listed by name in the indictment? I somehow always assumed grand juries were kept anonymous. I can’t imagine they’re going to have an easy time of it, now that they’re known.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [14 favorites]

GA's RICO is very tough and requires some prison time.

If this is based on the remarks at last night press conference, there is a difference between an offense being ineligible for probation and ineligible for home confinement. Georgia might also decide to confine him in some residence or other facility it already owns. It's not as if there's an established, iron clad set of requirements for imprisoning a convicted former President and current candidate.

There is also already a tendency not to send run-of-the-mill convicts of this age to prison to serve a term of any meaningful length. As it's more a less a death sentence, effectively.

If he is convicted and they do try to send to him an actual Georgia state prison, you can expect him to suddenly be feeling every one of his years and to put on the Junior Soprano routine. I've been expecting Giuliani to get there any day now.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [15 favorites]

...any judicial process runs with the knowledge that actual serious civil unrest would be a certain result of any jail sentence.

It's cool, they'll be ready to handle it this time.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:09 AM on August 15, 2023

Now I'm curious if people can get medical treatment for ADHD in prison.
posted by srboisvert

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Some inmates struggle to get rotten teeth removed. I knew a guy with a broken bone that couldn't get it set. I'm guessing a former president could get anything he needed. He won't be strictly uncomfortable if locked up. But there won't be a golden toilet.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:13 AM on August 15, 2023 [8 favorites]

It's new - It's improved

It's SURELYTHIS-19, not SURELYTHIS-1.
posted by flabdablet at 5:13 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

John Oliver commenting at length on this...

His first show when he's back is going to be nothing but a "We Got Him!!*!" montage.
posted by Mitheral at 5:26 AM on August 15, 2023 [8 favorites]

Putting Trump in jail would surely set off a nuclear-level reaction. Even if he wasn't sufficiently (and inexplicably) resistant to any sort of punishment to start with, any judicial process runs with the knowledge that actual serious civil unrest would be a certain result of any jail sentence.

There should be an equal knowledge that if Trump isn't punished for his crimes there will be a greater, if different, form of civil unrest. I don't think that's the case, but it's what's been missing since early 2017. The travel ban sparked a massive amount of protest and then things fizzled out. (I think they started with the travel ban in part because it was low-stakes for them, an easy win with their base, and because they knew fatigue would set in.)

My crystal ball is hazy right now, but I don't think another 1/6 is in the cards. Homegrown terrorism through bombings, assassinations, intimidation campaigns, yes. Another frontal assault on state or federal buildings, no. Actual civil war-level shit, no. The FBI raid on Craig Robertson may also discourage some of the fucking around since there are real consequences to finding out.

If the pressure gets high enough, I wonder if Trump would try to cut a deal. I'd like to see him go to prison, but if prosecutors could cut a deal where he turns on everybody else and reaches an agreement that he can never run for office again and a gag order, that would work too. (Can a court impose a permanent injunction against talking to press or speaking publicly outside prison? Never ever hearing anything from Trump again would be a blessing.)

Too many variables to guess what's going to happen. This would be a fascinating period of history to read about later. Wouldn't have chosen to live through it, though.
posted by jzb at 5:28 AM on August 15, 2023 [12 favorites]

A nuclear-level reaction would require his followers to be made of uranium rather than all-purpose flour and cream of tarter.

Main ingredients in homemade playdough. I left out the food coloring for obvious reasons.

You had me. I thought it was a a fission/fishing pun. Like battered fish and tartare sauce. Fishing for mob violence and getting no bites?
posted by adept256 at 5:31 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

I don't reckon there will be much unrest if TFG is jailed. His supporters are cowards and won't stick their necks out. They "believe" as in "shooting their mouths off," but they don't believe as in risking any kind of consequences.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:32 AM on August 15, 2023 [19 favorites]

He tried to end American Democracy. I don't think there are plea deals for that. Maybe he can get into some type of prisoner exchange thing with Russia after some years, but he'll be kept in the US till all his trials are over, and who knows how long that will take?
posted by mumimor at 5:39 AM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]

If he’s tried and convicted I don’t see how he doesn’t go to jail? Obvi harder if he’s in the White House but there’s really no way around a conviction. The rich and powerful skirt justice all the time but they don’t do so after they’re convicted of felonies with mandatory minimum sentences.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:39 AM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

To borrow from the book of Walker: America is like a sleeping lion and Donald Trump and his cultists are like jackals and hyenas who have been laughing at him with him while he naps, stealing his food, trespassing in his domain. They see the lion napping in the sunshine and will only grow bolder in how they challenge him until the lion wakes up and tears the shit out of one of them. We don’t need to be afraid of what Donald and Co will do; they need to be afraid of what we will do if they push us.
posted by interogative mood at 5:40 AM on August 15, 2023 [14 favorites]

I'd like to see him go to prison, but if prosecutors could cut a deal where he turns on everybody else and reaches an agreement that he can never run for office again and a gag order, that would work too.

He’s going to throw everyone under the bus regardless of any deal being cut. That’s just how he rolls. It’s much more likely many of the other indictees will turn on him instead. If prosecutors need them, of course. There are 31 unnamed, unindicted co-conspirators, according to the indictment. That’s a ton of informers.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:42 AM on August 15, 2023 [15 favorites]

Latest Truth Social post:

So, the Witch Hunt continues! 19 people Indicated tonight, including the former President of the United States, me, by an out of control and very corrupt District Attorney who campaigned and raised money on, "I will get Trump." And what about those Indictment Documents put out today, long before the Grand Jury even voted, and then quickly withdrawn? Sounds Rigged to me! Why didn't they Indict 2.5 years ago? Because they wanted to do it right in the middle of my political campaign. Witch Hunt!

Yyyeeesss, why didn't they?
posted by box at 5:47 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

If you'd like a new headache, GA could also conceivably change its rules before Trump is convicted to whatever the Republican majority can ram through.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:58 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]

Yet again, couldn't happen to a nicer.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 6:06 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

What Georgia cop is going to arrest Trump, though?
posted by Jon_Evil at 6:32 AM on August 15, 2023

This is the happiest day of my life.

Last night someone commented on Reddit (I paraphrase slightly): "Maddow on TV, beer in hand, this is my Super Bowl."
posted by spitbull at 6:36 AM on August 15, 2023 [18 favorites]

What Georgia cop is going to arrest Trump, though?

There’s a lot of pride in Georgia about this prosecution. Obviously, it’s not shared by everyone but the trooper who arrests Trump will be a hero to many Georgians.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:38 AM on August 15, 2023 [20 favorites]

couple of thoughts:

isn't slenderman more of a millennial thing than a gen z one?
i might be alone on this one — and, to be fair, i don't know much about this donald trump guy aside from, like, home alone 2 — but i sort of think the best case scenario would be for him to flee the country. he's too old to be an effective rallying point during his exile, he's not much use to his international backers once he's permanently holed up in moscow or whatever, and in general that whole business would make even the slowest of his followers realize how weak he is.

posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:42 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

It has been questioned as to why the long indictment that includes All The Things. Because that's how you get Trump on all the things, rather than just on solicitation to violate an oath of office and false statements.

It’s also how you lose the clarity of individual crimes that are slam dunks in a morass legal maneuvering.

There’s no reason they couldn’t have jumped on the solicitation immediately — in fact a conviction on that would have served the purposes of a later RICO case quite nicely.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:45 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

If you'd like a new headache, GA could also conceivably change its rules before Trump is convicted to whatever the Republican majority can ram through.

Precisely. There are many phases to this process and they will attempt to subvert them all. There will be massive screaming about how the brief premature posting of a charging document yesterday equates to an automatic mistrial (it doesn't), how every possible technicality or interpretation of state and federal law exonerates Trump (they don't), how prosecutorial misconduct disqualifies all indictments (there is none), how this is all a giant conspiracy and unlawful election interference (it isn't), how it should all be postponed until after we see how the 2024 election turns out (it shouldn't), how Trump actually does have the power to self-pardon even state offenses (he doesn't), how Georgia's state lege has time to rejigger its statutes to allow a much easier pardon of Trump & Co. (that remains to be seen), and every other possible way of neutering the prosecution and the punishments that one can imagine.

Keeping him out of the White House is only part of the equation. The Conservative Mantra -- we are an in-group protected by the law but not subject to it -- is what will be on trial here.
posted by delfin at 6:45 AM on August 15, 2023 [31 favorites]

I watched that mob organize itself on 4chan and Twitter for weeks. Trump didn’t make that happen with his organizational prowess and legendary oratory. I consider him ultimately culpable but he can’t summon riots at will.

Just popping in to say I am furious that our local radio station’s news breaks keep saying, “Democrat Fani Willis,” never, “District Attorney Fani Willis,” every time they mention the case.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [23 favorites]

Relevant: Are Trump's Indictments Rallying His Base? Evidence from the Counterfactual Format

Abstract: In the difficult task of assessing how sudden, significant events causally affect public attitudes, political pollsters often rely on respondents' retrospective and self-reported causal inferences. We study the case of former president Donald Trump's federal indictment for allegedly mishandling classified documents using two methods of retrospective causal inference. The commonly used change format asks respondents to directly state how the event affected their attitudes. This format triggers overwhelmingly partisan reactions and implausibly large effects. By contrast, the counterfactual format asks respondents to imagine what their attitudes and beliefs would have been if the event had not happened. Contrary to popular claims, it suggests that the indictment modestly hurt Trump's standing among Republicans, increasing their belief that he mishandled documents (+2.5 pp) and decreasing their intention to vote for him in the primaries (-1.6 pp). These results are consistent with earlier research on the change format, as well as the broader body of research on political persuasion and the effects of scandal. Our approach includes a new sensitivity analysis of the counterfactual format that demonstrates its ability to capture more granular opinion change.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:01 AM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]

jzb: " I wonder if Trump would try to cut a deal."

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that there are two reasons for plea deals: 1. In exchange for testimony against a bigger fish; 2. In order to obtain an admission of guilt without going to court.

Obviously there is no bigger fish, unless Cheeto Benito can somehow implicate Putin in this. And he is incapable of admitting guilt.

I've been saying all along that he'll abscond to Russia. If that's going to happen, it'll happen very soon.
posted by adamrice at 7:02 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

The Daily (NYTImes) has an interesting explainer about the RICO law in Georgia. It l gives lots of power to a prosecutor, permitting them to connect a web of behavior, which normally I would strongly object to, but today? Thank you Fani Willis. This is just what we need.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:04 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

I'd love to get Joe Pistone, aka Donnie Brasco, on the record about Guiliani.
posted by mattgriffin at 7:05 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

Why did the grand jury work until so late in the night last night? I figured everyone would be sticking to normal court hours. Was this special for this high profile case or is this regular procedure for a grand jury? Who makes the call on the schedule?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:02 AM

From what I understood from Maddow, the delay in releasing the indictment to the public after it was delivered was related to the Clerk's duties and some photocopying.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:09 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

Pundits talk about how these indictments make Trump more popular in the polls. The way I see it, the very lame-ass alternative candidates who are running a suck-up campaign to Trump are why Trump isn't going down. They are Trump without the Trump.
And DeSantis? He's Ted Cruz with even less personality.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:14 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

reasons for plea deals

3. To secure a conviction when you're not sure what the jury will do.

However diverting prognostication over how he might be confined may be (cement blockhouse, because fuck that guy? antebellum plantation, because fuck you?), the most important thing is that his guilt is established, he's barred from office and his name becomes a historical watchword for the most clownish forms of corruption and emblematic of the worst tendencies of the last few decades of politics; such that in twenty years no one left alive will want to admit to ever having supported him.

Having him change his plea, admit guilt and take a deal won't silence the most irrational of the die-hards, but it's harder to reject than a jury verdict.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:17 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

He’s going to throw everyone under the bus regardless of any deal being cut. That’s just how he rolls. It’s much more likely many of the other indictees will turn on him instead. If prosecutors need them, of course. There are 31 unnamed, unindicted co-conspirators, according to the indictment. That’s a ton of informers.

I am so here for this IRL Prisoner's Dilemma
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 7:20 AM on August 15, 2023 [21 favorites]

I watched that mob organize itself on 4chan and Twitter for weeks. Trump didn’t make that happen with his organizational prowess and legendary oratory. I consider him ultimately culpable but he can’t summon riots at will.

Did we see the same event? The one I saw was organized by a multitude of Republican political operatives. They had a stage and several prominent Republicans give speeches including Trump telling them to march on the capital before the riot. In preparation they reduced and interfered with the police presence at the capital and DC and coordinated the busing in of people from all over the country. Many of the riot organizers met with Republican officials the day before the riot at Trump's hotel even. The Proud Boys and 1%'ers among them and those guys went down on conspiracy charges and had weapons caches. There was maybe just two or three degrees of separation between Trump and many of the actual riot conspirators.

Sure there were plenty of internet rubes and fools there but the Jan 6th riot was a very organized and coordinated political operation at its core. The reason there probably won't be another riot is because the 1000+ and growing charges show that public criminal activity doesn't work so well in an area of ubiquitous video and photography and that internet and phone coordination is effectively taking notes on a MF'ing conspiracy. This organized assault on democracy was so obvious and egregious that large numbers of middle class white people from all over the country are getting jail time which is truly unprecedented.

I also suspect there won't be any rioting this time because Rupert Murdoch got dinged for almost a billion bucks and there is at least one more case of a similar magnitude coming down the pipes for him and he has ditched Trump because of it but it will sure be fun to see if Fox news comes up as a co-conspirator in the Georgia case.
posted by srboisvert at 7:25 AM on August 15, 2023 [41 favorites]

The second is for the State Attorney General to take over the case.

That would be State Attorney General Chris Carr, who Trump allegedly tried unsuccessfully to recruit into his scheme
posted by Optamystic at 7:36 AM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

Trump's supporters don't believe in this shit. They "believe" in it, in air quotes.

This, so much this. I'm no expert, but his support feels very thin to me. People list his name first in polls, but they also increasingly recognize he's flawed as a general candidate, and lots of people on the right are tired of his boring and embarrassing shit. In terms of protestors, the last couple of indictments got tiny crowds of protestors, and this one got zero. As in, even in the south and in a place where a significant percentage of people say that they strongly support him, no one bothered to show up and protest. I guess maybe there is some tiny chance that an impending conviction/imprisonment would finally get people riled up, but I'm willing to bet that even that will mostly get a collective shrug and lots of rhetoric but no action. Lots and lots and lots of GOP officials and voters want him to just quietly go away and leave his supporters behind for others to take. They don't want to see him charged and sentenced, but they also don't want him to stick around.

There are two ways for Republicans to throw a wrench into this. The first would be for the governor to use some newly granted DeSantis/Florida like powers to have the elected prosecutor removed from office. This has to go through a board though so it’s not straightforward. The second is for the State Attorney General to take over the case.

If the GA repubs had wanted to support him, they could have backed his illegal schemes on day 1. They didn't, and they have continued to not back him strongly at every step. Trump backed challengers to Kemp and others, and those challengers got spanked in the election. I could see them taking moves to somehow blunt the prosecution and try to make it more fizzle or roll slow, but none of them have shown a willingness to lay their careers on the line for Trump. (Well, a few did, and they are no either named in the indictment, or show up as "Unindicted Co-conspirator Number X.")
posted by Dip Flash at 7:36 AM on August 15, 2023 [12 favorites]

We don’t need to be afraid of what Donald and Co will do; they need to be afraid of what we will do if they push us.

Oh, I am heartily tired of hearing about what Lee is going to do. Some of you always seem to think he is suddenly going to turn a double somersault, and land in our rear and on both of our flanks at the same time. Go back to your command, and try to think what we are going to do ourselves, instead of what Lee is going to do.

— Ulysses S. Grant
posted by kirkaracha at 7:39 AM on August 15, 2023 [88 favorites]

One of the things I really like about this indictment is that the charges go from the top all the way to the bottom idiots on the ground in Georgia parading as electors. Prosecuting those people is going to send as big a message as prosecuting Sydney Powell.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:42 AM on August 15, 2023 [14 favorites]

It’s also how you lose the clarity of individual crimes that are slam dunks in a morass legal maneuvering.

There’s no reason they couldn’t have jumped on the solicitation immediately — in fact a conviction on that would have served the purposes of a later RICO case quite nicely.

You're making the story out to be a lot more complicated than it really is. The indictment is long because it recites so many crimes and acts in furtherance of the overarching conspiracy, but it's not at all complicated or difficult to understand.

Charging it as the big conspiracy it is has advantages. With regard to solicitation and false statements, Trump could easily argue that he believed what he was saying and he didn't intend for anyone to violate their oath of office, but to hold to it. A jury might buy that, taken on its own.

Throwing the fake electors (the forgery, falsification of documents, etc) and the theft of election data (computer trespass, etc) charges against the other defendants in there and charging the whole scheme under Georgia's RICO law makes it a lot harder for Trump specifically to wriggle out of. Intent doesn't matter when you're the head of a criminal enterprise that exfiltrated code and data from an elections office under false pretenses and submitted documents purporting to be the certified election results to the Archivist and attempted to influence the testimony of witnesses and your coconspirators perjured themselves in court and before the grand jury.

With the weight of the full conspiracy bearing on Trump's shoulders, it's going to be a lot harder for a jury to buy that he didn't have the necessary intent. He was, after all, in constant communication with his lackeys and regularly being informed as to the efforts they were taking and the status of those efforts. Much of that evidence could be excluded in a trial focusing on only one aspect of the whole scheme.
posted by wierdo at 7:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [33 favorites]

“And for the lady, an after-dinner glass of your finest schadenfreude.”

It’s only called schadenfreude if it comes from the Schadenfreude region of France. Otherwise it’s sparkling epicaricacy.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:44 AM on August 15, 2023 [71 favorites]

Now I'm curious if people can get medical treatment for ADHD in prison.

As it happens, just yesterday the judge in the SBF case issued an order for him to be provided with his Adderall and other meds in the MDC, and because several someones were napping, the name of the drugs he's taking weren't redacted out of the public version of the court order. So, yes.
posted by praemunire at 7:50 AM on August 15, 2023 [13 favorites]

Here's what I'm wondering: which of the co-conspirators are genuine loyalists who will march to their graves rather than betray That Guy, and which are craven cowards who will sing like Big Mouth Billy Bass if it means shaving a week off their own sentences? My personal suspicion is none of them and all of them, respectively.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:53 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

The Trump Georgia Indictment, Annotated (New York Times gift link)
posted by kirkaracha at 8:02 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

The answer to that question may be found in who is paying their legal bills.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:02 AM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

Dare Obasanjo plots the data to show that "the average US president has been charged with two felonies".
posted by autopilot at 8:03 AM on August 15, 2023 [66 favorites]

Indictments Georg definitely throws off the numbers here.

(I am very happy and more hopeful than I've been in a while. I wish I could go back in time and share this feeling with day after-2016-election me. She was NOT doing well).
posted by emjaybee at 8:10 AM on August 15, 2023 [37 favorites]

reaches an agreement that he can never run for office again and a gag order, that would work too.

I actually think he would be psychologically and physically unable to abide by a gag order. All the guy does is piss and moan about perceived slights. He is a septuagenarian broken toddler.

The manchild can’t mentally handle simple things like someone getting a larger audience size. He think TV ratings are equal to the love that he has never experienced and cannot understand.

Complaining is like breathing to him. He whines, therefore he is.
posted by blueberry at 8:11 AM on August 15, 2023 [20 favorites]

Came for the Popehat reax, was not disappointed.
posted by whuppy at 8:12 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

The Various Kinds of Georgia Crimes in the RICO Indictment - emptywheel
posted by kirkaracha at 8:26 AM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

That would be State Attorney General Chris Carr, who Trump allegedly tried unsuccessfully to recruit into his scheme

FYI the linked article here makes clear that, even if Carr were politically inclined to aid trump, he would not personally be able to take over this case because he is a witness. I'm not clear on the Georgia professional ethics rules, but that might also preclude anyone in his office who reports to him from taking over as well, which would mean that a special prosecutor would have to be appointed. There would need to be a compelling reason to do all of this rather than leaving it where it is now.
posted by gauche at 8:26 AM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

I like presidents who deserve it getting indicted.
I like this.
I don't like Bush getting away with War Crimes, but I'll take this a million times.
LOCK HIM UP! (blah blah).
posted by symbioid at 8:29 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

"He's really gonna git it this time!"

I actually think a state case has better potential than a federal case. I'm convinced that he has secret immunity from prosecution on a federal level.
posted by ovvl at 8:31 AM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election Fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete & will be presented by me at a major News Conference at 11:00 A.M. on Monday of next week in Bedminster, New Jersey. Based on the results of this CONCLUSIVE Report, all charges should be dropped against me & others - There will be a complete EXONERATION! They never went after those that Rigged the Election. They only went after those that fought to find the RIGGERS!

— @realDonaldTrump, Aug 15, 2023, 5:49 AM
posted by kirkaracha at 8:40 AM on August 15, 2023 [10 favorites]

That's a lot of capital letters, that early in the morning.
posted by box at 8:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

Pundits talk about how these indictments make Trump more popular in the polls.

Whose minds are actually changing?

His hardcore Trumpoids are ride-or-die with him, to the end. NeverTrumpers who backed DeSantis as an alternative are witnessing the screaming death spiral of his campaign, and no one else is above 10%. Fiscal conservatives will vote for any Republican who emerges with the nomination (including Trump) whom they think will increase their effective power (tax cuts, deregulation, friendlier courts, etc.), and the same is true for evangelicals.

Now show me one person who looks at these indictments and thinks "Well, NOW I'll vote for him" who wasn't 120% in the tank for Trump in the first place.

And speaking of sudden and undeniable reports of massive election fraud, here comes Mike Lindell again, arms bound in a white coat but ready for yet another Election Summit tomorrow that will "present a God-given solution that will fix our elections immediately that has never been tried before in the history of the world."
posted by delfin at 8:45 AM on August 15, 2023 [10 favorites]

Trump's 4 criminal cases, ranked in order of how screwed he is
posted by kirkaracha at 8:45 AM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

I am very disappointed not to see the name Cleta Mitchell among the accused

Heywood Mogroot III: “The Stifling Heat in My Georgia Prison”

Never forget that Georgia's prisons and jails are crimes against humanity.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:12 AM on August 15, 2023 [10 favorites]

I just want to thank emjaybee for "Indictments Georg." I can't stop giggling.
posted by timestep at 9:12 AM on August 15, 2023 [18 favorites]

EXONERATION

You get the feathers, I'll get the tar; meet me down at the union bar
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:17 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

Trump has been operating like a mob boss all his life...

Except he's never been able to follow the mob-boss rule that says "If indicted, shut up and let your lawyer do the talking."
posted by Epixonti at 9:23 AM on August 15, 2023 [17 favorites]

OK, Big Don, I’ll bite :
What kind of conclusive evidence could you possibly present in this press conference that you have somehow been unable to produce in all of the failed lawsuits and fundraising events?
And is the Mein Pillow guy going to be involved? God I hope so.
posted by das_2099 at 9:23 AM on August 15, 2023 [13 favorites]

Matt Tait goes over the indictment. I found his grouping of charges/conspirators helpful:

The Core Conspirators:

Rudy Giuliani (lawyer)
John Eastman (lawyer)
Ray Smith III (lawyer)
Kenneth Chesebro (lawyer)
Jenna Ellis (lawyer)
Robert Cheeley (lawyer)
Sidney Powell (lawyer)

Corrupting the U.S. Department of Justice to falsely allege election fraud:

Jeffrey Clark (ex-assistant attorney general)
John Eastman (lawyer)

The Fake Elector schemers:

Michael Roman (GOP strategist)
David Shafer (GA Republican Party Chair)
Shawn Still (Georgia State Senator)
Cathleen Latham (former Coffee County GOP chairwoman)

The Raffensperger call:

Mark Meadows (Former White House Chief of Staff)

Attempts to corruptly influence Ruby Freeman:

Stephen Lee (Illinois pastor)
Harrison Floyd (“Black Voices for Trump” leader)
Trevian Kutti (publicist)

Stealing the ballot machines from Coffee County:

Sidney Powell (lawyer)
Cathleen Latham (former Coffee County GOP chairwoman)
Scott Graham Hall (bail bondsman)
Misty Hampton (former Coffee County elections supervisor)

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:45 AM on August 15, 2023 [46 favorites]

I'm convinced that he has secret immunity from prosecution on a federal level.

But he’s literally being prosecuted on a federal level right now, no?
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 9:49 AM on August 15, 2023 [11 favorites]

which of the co-conspirators are genuine loyalists who will march to their graves

Everyone is ready to dump on Sidney Powell, apparently. [WaPo gift]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:05 AM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

I'm convinced that he has secret immunity from prosecution on a federal level.

A claim like this requires some elaboration! Especially since he's . . . being prosecuted on a Federal level in two cases, currently.
posted by kensington314 at 10:11 AM on August 15, 2023 [8 favorites]

I always figured there was Trump/Russia money flowing into Proud Boys, 3%ers, et al. Paid crisis actors and all that.

Anyhoo, if Trump has all this kompromat on so many important people, I'm surprised he hasn't been Epsteined already.
posted by slogger at 10:15 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

Everyone is ready to dump on Sidney Powell, apparently

from the article: “Rudy Giuliani had nothing to do with this,” Robert Costello told CNN. “You can’t attach Rudy Giuliani to Sidney Powell’s crackpot idea.”

riiiiiight
None of us were watching when Rudy stood up with Sidney, black shoe polish nelting down his face, to back her crackpot idea. None of us were watching the presser in front of Four Seasons TOTAL LANDSCAPING (you know, the one next to the porn shop) backing her crackpot idea. You had nothing to do with all the lawsuits that got filed and summarily dismissed, backing her crackpot idea.
You definitely can't attach Rudy to that.
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:19 AM on August 15, 2023 [37 favorites]

(GA Governor) Brian Kemp responded to Trump's "Riggers" tweet:

The 2020 election in Georgia was not stolen.

For nearly three years now, anyone with evidence of fraud has failed to come forward - under oath - and prove anything in a court of law. Our elections in Georgia are secure, accessible, and fair and will continue to be as long as I am governor.

The future of our country is at stake in 2024 and that must be our focus.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:25 AM on August 15, 2023 [38 favorites]

“And for the lady, an after-dinner glass of your finest schadenfreude.”

Looks like schadenfreude wine does exist.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:34 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

“Married to the Mob,” John Ganz, Unpopular Front, 15 August 2023

At this point, Trump being indicted is old hat. But several people have noted the rather delicious irony of Rudy Giuliani, who once “pioneered” RICO prosecutions against the Mafia as a crusading U.S. attorney and then transferred the strategy to chasing corporate criminals like Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken, coming himself under a RICO indictment in Georgia.

posted by ob1quixote at 10:54 AM on August 15, 2023 [8 favorites]

W/r/t the "Fake Election Schemers" and "Michael Roman (GOP strategist)":

Roman was a senior advisor for the 2016 Trump campaign (his focus was on poll watching/interpreting), and then a White House staffer ("Director of Special Projects and Research") until April 2018. "Few people in or close to the White House have any idea what Michael Roman does all day... He reports to White House counsel Don McGahn, who represented the conservative Koch network as a lawyer during the period when Roman was working for the Kochs’ Freedom Partners group as head of research— a $269,000-a-year job that involved tracking the activities of Democratic political organizers and donors." [WH salary of $115K/year was a steep pay cut.] (Politico, Feb. 11, 2018)

When did election fraud scheming get underway?
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:56 AM on August 15, 2023 [10 favorites]

> (I live here and watched the Jan 6 Committee hearings obsessively and I still can't keep all these yahoos straight)

Confirms my suspicions that Trump is aiming for innocence via indictment buffer overflow.
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:59 AM on August 15, 2023 [13 favorites]

Looks like schadenfreude wine does exist.

I'd also recommend the Narcissist Riesling 2021 from the Megalomaniac winery in Niagara, Ont.

(It's fun to visit. The central building looks like a villain's hidden lair. Could well be in actuality.)
posted by rpophessagr at 11:18 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

I think one thing about these RICO charges and the vast cast of characters involved is that Trump has been operating like a mob boss all this life, and he's always used plausible deniability and other weasel methods to avoid hard scrutiny. I guess if you're mostly dealing in NYC real estate, nobody is that interested in looking too closely at you and your organization.

There's a key difference, also, in that a non-trivial number of the agency people who are supposedly regulating NYC real estate are in fact happily corrupt and on the take. So you can buy and influence your way out of problems there, in a way that just doesn't work with the Department of Justice or, it appears, the state of Georgia. Corruption only works when you have people on the take or where you know people are dirty and can threaten them.

I always figured there was Trump/Russia money flowing into Proud Boys, 3%ers, et al. Paid crisis actors and all that.

Anyhoo, if Trump has all this kompromat on so many important people, I'm surprised he hasn't been Epsteined already.

Other than a sadly long list of people in congress (Lindsey Graham, Matt Gaetz), what important people does Trump have leverage on? He has gotten zero loyalty from most of the Supreme Court (Thomas excepted), including the whackadoodle people he personally appointed. I'm sure there is a long list of GOP people who would love it if he got whacked simply so he goes away, but how many of them are actual feeling threatened aside from the various named co-conspirators who are largely has-beens?

We're seeing the erosion of his influence in real time, and I am loving it.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:30 AM on August 15, 2023 [14 favorites]

(GA Governor) Brian Kemp responded to Trump's "Riggers" tweet

at the end of the day Republicans can virtue signal all they want but they will all vote for Trump if he is the nominee
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:34 AM on August 15, 2023 [8 favorites]

> And also uranium doesn't go well with blueberry syrup.

Uranium may not, but don't presume to speak for myanium!
posted by bgribble at 11:42 AM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

at the end of the day Republicans can virtue signal all they want but they will all vote for Trump if he is the nominee

I'm pretty sure Kemp hates Trump with a passion. Trump actively campaigned for his primary challenger in 2022 and has shat on him pretty consistently for the past three years.

Also, if Trump keeps using that word "riggers" in his tweets, his finger will eventually slip and he'll type out the word he's actually thinking.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:44 AM on August 15, 2023 [36 favorites]

None of us were watching the presser in front of Four Seasons TOTAL LANDSCAPING (you know, the one next to the porn shop) backing her crackpot idea.

I'd completely forgotten about that. Thank you so much for reminding me. I'd love for someone to dig out all the details one day: who f'd up, who decided to roll with it...
posted by NailsTheCat at 11:44 AM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

Weirdest part of all this:
Count 30 and Count 31 charge aspects of a plot to get Kanye West's publicist to travel from Illinois to Georgia to entrap Ruby Freeman into making false claims.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:57 AM on August 15, 2023 [14 favorites]

So you can buy and influence your way out of problems there, in a way that just doesn't work with the Department of Justice or, it appears, the state of Georgia.

Plenty of folks are on the take in Georgia. That's how Cop City is being pushed through despite all the public opposition. Hell, that's how a failed candidate for Agriculture Commissioner somehow got himself appointed Sec of State and a few years later fumbled his way into the governor's mansion. But it's their take, and outsiders are not welcome.
posted by hydropsyche at 11:58 AM on August 15, 2023 [13 favorites]

I'd completely forgotten about that.

His goof reel is rather epic. Most damning is his appearance in Borat 2, alone in a hotel room with who he thinks is an underage girl, he lies back on the bed and puts his hands down his pants. Yeah. Remember when shame and disgrace like that would be the end of a career? Thanks Trump.

More light hearted is his gig-work selling greetings on Cameo. So cringe. Of course trolls took advantage of this. Most enjoyable is the price tag, something like 200$. He must be hurting, probably thought being a Trump lawyer would pay better 😂.
posted by adept256 at 12:01 PM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]

I'd love for someone to dig out all the details one day: who f'd up, who decided to roll with it...

If you have a Peacock subscription, there is the Four Seasons Total Documentary [justwatch], which was an MSNBC production in late 2021.
posted by hippybear at 12:06 PM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

His goof reel is rather epic. Most damning is his appearance in Borat 2, alone in a hotel room with who he thinks is an underage girl, he lies back on the bed and puts his hands down his pants.

As I’ve said previously I hope Maria Bakalova got danger money because shit got very real there.
posted by Artw at 12:08 PM on August 15, 2023 [12 favorites]

A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election Fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete & will be presented by me at a major News Conference at 11:00 A.M. on Monday of next week in Bedminster, New Jersey. Based on the results of this CONCLUSIVE Report, all charges should be dropped against me & others - There will be a complete EXONERATION! They never went after those that Rigged the Election. They only went after those that fought to find the RIGGERS!
— @realDonaldTrump, Aug 15, 2023, 5:49 AM

Complex? Major? Conclusive? really. he is so pathetic.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:09 PM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

As I’ve said previously I hope Maria Bakalova got danger money because shit got very real there.

Right? For the relief of all, Sacha was monitoring and intervened immediately. But damn. Don't trust Rudy. Or trust him to do the worst thing.
posted by adept256 at 12:11 PM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

From the Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Who’s who in the Georgia Trump indictment (I live here and watched the Jan 6 Committee hearings obsessively and I still can't keep all these yahoos straight)
posted by hydropsyche at 10:37 AM on August 15

Yahoos indeed. This is really worth reading.

An Alpharetta lawyer, Cheely presented video clips to state legislators showing election workers handling ballots at State Farm Arena. He asserted poll workers were double- and triple-counting votes and compared what he said had happened to the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941.

Pearl Harbor. what ignorant idiots.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:14 PM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

My personal favorite is Scott Hall, Atlanta bail bondsman:

A bail bondsman in Atlanta, Hall was seen on security footage at the Coffee County Board of Elections on Jan, 7, 2021. During that visit pro-Trump operatives and a forensic data team they had hired copied sensitive elections hardware and software.

It's like political conspiracy MadLibs
posted by hydropsyche at 12:21 PM on August 15, 2023 [9 favorites]

Charging it as the big conspiracy it is has advantages.

Weirdo's whole comment there is a good explanation, but to sum up my understanding, the real value in trying this under RICO is that you get a wide-angle fact pattern, both in the defendants involved (all charged under the same broad conspiracy to make it harder to say "oh no, that was just Rudy being Rudy I wasn't even there" or whatever, but also in terms of what is considered relevant. Going for faster individual charges could have brought a swifter indictment, but a much easier one to defeat in terms of what the defense can keep out of evidence, namely: context.

Charging this under RICO allows for just loads and loads of context. Which is why charging under RICO is tough for a prosecutor to do, generally, but in this case hopefully very worthwhile.

Now, what I really want to see happen is for This Motherfucker to get the Sam Bankman-Fried treatment, since I'm pretty sure he's constitutionally incapable of not attempting to intimidate or tamper with witnesses.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:23 PM on August 15, 2023 [14 favorites]

I fully expecting an argument that since his usual campaign style is already filled with threats of violence they can’t be a bail violation.
posted by Artw at 12:26 PM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'd forgotten that the threats against Georgia's SOS Brad Raffensperger and his wife, Tricia (recipient of that "You and your family will be killed very slowly" text months after the election, for instance), targeted extended family, too; on the same night Raffensperger noticed three cars with out-of-state license plates outside his home (when questioned by his security, the men identified themselves as Oath Keepers in town for BLM protests), his daughter-in-law's home was broken into. Nothing was taken, but the garage door was left open, all the lights were turned on, and items were moved around. The daughter-in-law lived in the home with her two pre-school aged kids; the Raffenspergers' son Brenton had died three years previously.

In light of the death threats, the Raffenspergers suspended visits with their grandchildren, and at one point were in hiding; harassing texts were still arriving in the dead of the night in mid-2021. Georgia Today: Behind Relentless Death Threats Against Raffenspergers, Georgia Election Officials, June 18, 2021

In 2020, Mrs. R. sent angry texts to then-Sen. Kelly Loeffler, who had joined then-Sen. David Perdue in condemning Brad Raffensperger for not doing more to overturn Georgia’s elections in Trump’s favor. "My family and I am being personally besieged by people threatening our lives,” Raffensperger wrote. “I hold you personally responsible for anything that happens to any of my family … you do not deserve to be in elected office."
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:28 PM on August 15, 2023 [40 favorites]

Raffensperger is hideous but he was not going to be out-alphaed by Trump or his minions.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:30 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

From Twitter:

Donald Trump is now under indictment in every NL East city other than Philadelphia.

Quick refresher:

NYC (Mets) - Stormy Daniels hush money
Miami (Marlins) - Top Secret documents at Mar-a-Lago
DC (Nationals) - Not exactly Jan. 6, but almost everything up to Jan. 6
Atlanta (Braves) - This right here

If he had managed to slip in a bit of fraud at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping, we could have run the board.
posted by mhum at 12:32 PM on August 15, 2023 [35 favorites]

Two questions:
-SullivanStrickler LLC is mentioned in the indictment several times, but not as a defendant. WaPo says that their examinations were permitted by courts in two counties. Why would it be OK for them to do that, but not Sidney Powell, et.al.?
-I have only been on a jury once and it was with 1 defendant and more or less 1 charge. Anyone here have experience with this kind of charges/defendants? It seems like one would need a scorecard to remember who is charged with what. (More likely- who is not charged in each count)
posted by MtDewd at 12:35 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump is now under indictment in every NL East city other than Philadelphia.

I don't think Gritty bothers with indictments.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:58 PM on August 15, 2023 [68 favorites]

I bet Trump's staff and lawyers were SUPER EXCITED to learn that they will have to create that irrefutable REPORT by Monday at 11am for Trump to present. The should film the process, start by breaking into two teams and compete to see which team can come up with a better report. Just before the big presentation Trump will pick the one he likes more and fire someone from the team that comes in second. It would make for a nice bookend for this whole saga.
posted by interogative mood at 1:03 PM on August 15, 2023 [33 favorites]

That press conference is going to be quite a thing to watch. I wonder what they're going to try to present? Or will it even be that? Maybe it's a bait and switch to get him in front of microphones for something else entirely.
posted by hippybear at 1:07 PM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]

My hunch: there will be no press conference.
posted by Pendragon at 1:11 PM on August 15, 2023 [25 favorites]

It will be the stacks of blank paper all over again.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:14 PM on August 15, 2023 [12 favorites]

If he calls a major press conference, and let's say all the networks and people actually do show up instead of maybe ignoring him like they should, and he stands up there and starts to name judges and witnesses... he will at least be brought in to one court for a show cause hearing.
posted by hippybear at 1:23 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

Twixxer rumor has it that Jenna Ellis will not get one penny from Trump or his PACs towards her legal defense... because she's supported DeSantis, and is thus disloyal and persona non grata.

I"m sure we can all chip in towards a "I Stood Next To Rudy Giuliani At Four Seasons Total Landscaping and All I Got were COVID and an Indictment" T-shirt.
posted by delfin at 1:38 PM on August 15, 2023 [13 favorites]

Twixxer rumor has it that Jenna Ellis will not get one penny from Trump or his PACs towards her legal defense... because she's supported DeSantis, and is thus disloyal and persona non grata.

Particularly delightful in a RICO case where her guilt has the potential to implicate everyone else named in the indictment. Please keep them pistols aimed squarely at your own feet, gang!
posted by Navelgazer at 1:40 PM on August 15, 2023 [16 favorites]

The Trump Circular Firing Squad And Sell-Out Society, now appearing in Georgia.
posted by mephron at 1:47 PM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]

Particularly delightful in a RICO case where her guilt has the potential to implicate everyone else named in the indictment. Please keep them pistols aimed squarely at your own feet, gang!

And speaking of her guilt...

The Colorado Supreme Court publicly censured Ellis in March for violating rules that attorneys must not “knowingly [engage] in any [noncriminal] conduct that involves dishonesty, fraud, deceit, or misrepresentation,” after the attorney admitted in court she had made “misrepresentations” while representing Trump after the election that were “reckless” and had a “selfish motive,” including claiming the election was “stolen and Trump won by a landslide” and alleging election fraud.

So to avoid disbarment, she pled guilty to lying her ass off, and it's on record, and that's the central theme of the conspiracy she and the others are now on trial for participating in.

So yeah, go ahead, Donnie. Piss her off more.
posted by delfin at 1:56 PM on August 15, 2023 [39 favorites]

The devil went down to Georgia
He was looking for some votes to steal . . .
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:02 PM on August 15, 2023 [15 favorites]

Plenty of folks are on the take in Georgia. That's how Cop City is being pushed through despite all the public opposition. Hell, that's how a failed candidate for Agriculture Commissioner somehow got himself appointed Sec of State and a few years later fumbled his way into the governor's mansion. But it's their take, and outsiders are not welcome.

That's a great point. All of these institutions (DOJ very much included) have corruption and influence-peddling. But if you aren't on the inside of that circle, you can't take advantage.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:10 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

None of the Trump offspring/in-laws are turning up as co-conspirators in the election-related indictments. (In the 2022 NY business-fraud suit, yes, and there was a near-miss back in 2012.) D'you suppose they flipped? Or do those early issues with security clearance -- did Jared's ever come through?!? -- for their ill-defined WH roles provide plausible deniability now?
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:11 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

So, I've lived in New York City for almost the entirety of Giuliani's political career. Didn't notice him much in 93, when he first took office as mayor; it was my first year out of college and I was in a bad relationship, and I was hip-deep in early-20-something figuring-your-shit-out stuff. But as the years went on, I started to notice just how much of a tinpot tyrant he was. I was alarmed at the police overreach, and even more alarmed at HIS overreach (during his two terms as mayor, the city brought about TWENTY-SIX First-Amendment based lawsuits against him; and won all of them). When he had a shit-fit about one of the artworks in an exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum, and temporarily withheld their funding, I looked up what the individual NYC taxpayers' share of that grant would be and made a point of giving them that as my admission. One of the only fights I got into with an old friend was about how he had voted for Giuliani in '97 "because he stopped crime".

I have been cringing since 2001 about the whole "America's Mayor" thing - not because he wasn't arguably good in a crisis, but because now the rest of the damn country would see only that, and because otherwise he would have been an unpopular lame-duck mayor on his way out. (The asshole tried to rig the system to give himself a third term, and we had to have two public referenda to stop him.)

And that "America's Mayor" stuff lingers. I have an uncle living in Arizona who is rather on the conservative side; he saw one of my Facebook postings in which I celebrated Giuliani getting disbarred, and he emailed me a "just asking!" kind of question about it, with a link to some blowhard's essay about New York City being crime-ridden. I responded with THREE emails methodically debunking first the "NYC is crime ridden" rep and then Giuliani's track record. He actually responded after the first email with a meek attempt to deflect me, but I was on a roll because it's Giuliani and I hate the guy.

I'm watching for Trump to go down - but I'm also really looking forward to watching Giuliani go down.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:12 PM on August 15, 2023 [62 favorites]

The devil went down to Georgia
He was looking for some votes to steal . . .

The Devil bowed his head because he knew that he'd been beat
And he laid that golden fiddle on the ground at Johnny's feet

The devil actually conceded when he lost in Georgia.
posted by adept256 at 2:14 PM on August 15, 2023 [78 favorites]

My hunch: there will be no press conference.

Four Seasons TOTAL LANDSCAPING is closed on Mondays.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 2:19 PM on August 15, 2023 [14 favorites]

> I bet Trump's staff and lawyers were SUPER EXCITED to learn that they will have to create that irrefutable REPORT by Monday at 11am for Trump to present.

Better make sure that report is sent Certified Mail.
posted by guiseroom at 2:23 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

This evening, Hilary Clinton was making a pre-scheduled appearance on Rachel Maddow's show. And as luck would have it - she went on JUST after the charges had been announced.

Tangential question: why aren't MSNBC and Maddow honoring the WGA strike?
posted by fuse theorem at 2:27 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

I assume either because their are in a different guild/union, or because the contracts they were working under aren't ones that have come up for renewal and are being struck. There are a lot of different kinds of contracts with different entities, even within the same guild.

Unless Hillary and Rachel were promoting a project that is currently under a struck contract, they did nothing wrong.

There are plenty of people actually promoting products they've written as guild members for struck companies, like Madeline George doing promotion on Slate for both an Audible project, owned by Amazon, and a Hulu project, owned by Disney.
posted by hippybear at 2:34 PM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]

Tangential question: why aren't MSNBC and Maddow honoring the WGA strike?

I believe Maddow is under SAG as a news broadcaster, which is a different contract and not part of the current dispute. (Source: NPR mentions this fact every time they cover the strike.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:43 PM on August 15, 2023 [16 favorites]

So if they were going to indict why did they wait this long?

Because when you come at the king, you best not miss.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:51 PM on August 15, 2023 [42 favorites]

Maybe it's this: Writer's Guild of America East: Broadcast/Cable/Streaming News members are primarily the writers of news programs across television, radio, and streaming platforms. These members work under workplace/shop-specific contracts, which are negotiated between each shop’s bargaining unit and its management. [MSNBC joined WGAE in 2021]
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:56 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

For serious though, why DID it take three goddamn years to indict the motherfucker? I know people are fond of saying that the justic system moves slowly, but it doesn't move slowly for a Black kid who got som crack planted on him by a pig, so clearly it can move quickly when it chooss.

Because the black kid with crack planted on him is, from the eyes of the justice system, a very easy case to make with very low stakes surrounding it., and also it's almost certainly not going to trial, because even with the kid making his innocence very clear most public defenders are going to try to plea it out, and if it does go to trial it will be a bench trial that takes fewer resources and less time than this sort of trial, and also there's no indictment process involved. Also, the prosecutor likely has no idea that the crack was planted in that instance, because there'd be no reason for them to know and they're going off of the police report.

These indictments take a lot of time, strategy, learning who knew what, when they knew it, who they might have told, etc., gathering hard evidence to keep things from just being he-said-she-said, etc. They require finding witnesses, flipping co-conspirators, and a lot of double-and-triple-checking that you've got it nailed down, because opposing counsel in this case is going to fire at you with everything they've got.

That's why, in short, these took so long. From my understanding.
posted by Navelgazer at 3:01 PM on August 15, 2023 [15 favorites]

There's that, and there's also what mr_roboto states, which is you cannot doing a dice roll kind of legal case with this kind of thing. One court victory for Trump will lead to him declaring total exoneration and will not lead to good outcomes in the greater culture. All of these court cases need to come out as guilty, or certainly the first one or two. Especially any that render a verdict before Nov 2024, which honestly this Georgia case is entirely unlikely to do.
posted by hippybear at 3:07 PM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

It is an odd thing that a convicted felon in some states is disenfranchised (even after they have completed their sentence) but they are allowed to run for president (even if they are still in jail). Doesn't make sense.
posted by binturong at 3:14 PM on August 15, 2023 [8 favorites]

Also, the kid framed for possession likely does not have enough money to hire a panel of lawyers dedicated to nitpicking everything about the case and the trial and to file endless appeals and such.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:16 PM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

It is an odd thing that a convicted felon in some states is disenfranchised (even after they have completed their sentence) but they are allowed to run for president (even if they are still in jail). Doesn't make sense.

Unintended consequences. The Constitution was written with checks and balances that were meant to prevent someone like this from taking power, or certainly for removing them from power once in office and proven bad. Apparently the mindsets of those brilliant men didn't allow them to conceive of someone who might be supported in their efforts and acquitted of their actions by the very mechanisms they put in place.
posted by hippybear at 3:18 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

Well, neither does TFG but...

You don't need the money if you aren't planning to pay them...
posted by Windopaene at 3:19 PM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]

Mark Meadows is first defendant to try and move his criminal case to Federal Court.

Where they can be outright dismissed or at least pardoned by a future Republican president.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:34 PM on August 15, 2023 [8 favorites]

How about that?

Hope Willis and the judge will shut that shit down asap. You broke our state laws. Deal with it.
posted by Windopaene at 3:52 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

Meadows (allegedly) already has a deal with the Feds for his actions during his tenure as White House Chief of Staff, of course he wants out of the state-level proceedings.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:54 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

He didn't do anything illegal per se:

Nothing Mr. Meadows is alleged in the indictment to have done is criminal per se: arranging Oval Office meetings, contacting state officials on the President’s behalf, visiting a state government building, and setting up a phone call for the President. One would expect a Chief of Staff to the President of the United States to do these sorts of things

posted by achrise at 3:55 PM on August 15, 2023

He didn't do anything illegal per se

As one wag put it, "Oh, suddenly it's illegal to buy a plane ticket, with 19 of your buddies, on September 11th?"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:00 PM on August 15, 2023 [35 favorites]

My understanding is even if Meadows wins his motion it just moves the trial to the Federal courthouse in Atlanta. The prosecutor stays, the charges remain. He gets a slightly more favorable jury pool, but otherwise he’s still screwed.
posted by interogative mood at 4:01 PM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

It is still my running assumption that Trump never sees day 1 inside a cell but boy does it look like a bunch of his mates are completely fucked.

he might get house arrest, an ankle bracelet, passport taken. But inside an actual prison? nah. Which, i think for his 18 buddies is something to think about going forward. None of them will be afforded that punishment, so why not get out of the huge bus coming your way?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:02 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

Why would it be OK for them to do that, but not Sidney Powell, et.al.?

Because it's illegal for an unauthorized person to possess voted ballots. The company and its employees may have been authorized, but that doesn't authorize J. Random Dumbfuck to possess them, even if they happen to be working independently for the same goal. Perhaps if Sidney Powell had been admitted to the Georgia bar the company could have retained her legal services, come up with an excuse as to why she needed to see the ballots to do that work, and made it at least arguably legal, but we are not dealing with particularly bright or careful people here.

Turns out that IOKIYAR isn't actually a legal argument.
posted by wierdo at 4:24 PM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

You're making the story out to be a lot more complicated than it really is. The indictment is long because it recites so many crimes and acts in furtherance of the overarching conspiracy, but it's not at all complicated or difficult to understand.

The indictment itself is straightforward, but every word you add to a legal document is something that can be challenged in court. The defense lawyers are going to do their best to confuse every point, and they have been given a massive body to work with.

With regard to solicitation and false statements, Trump could easily argue that he believed what he was saying and he didn't intend for anyone to violate their oath of office

I'm certain Trump did believe what he was saying when he said "All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes" to the Georgia Secretary of State. Also, later when he said "I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break."

That isn't a smoking gun. That's Ultra HD 4K live video.

The indictment specifies 161 acts that were taken in furtherance of the conspiracy, every single one of which will be challenged. The defense will exercise their right to talk to every witness and produce counter-witnesses to each one. It's going to be a very long trial.

A single one of those acts was the phone call quoted above and I maintain that it could stand just fine on its own, especially if you read the rest of the transcript. Trump may have believed every word he was saying but that doesn't change the fact that he was committing the crime of attempting to influence voting officers.

People with a lot more legal experience than me made the choice to structure things the way they have and I'm not going to second guess them, but I'm afraid that one moment of clarity will be lost.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:31 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

USA Today (the flagship brand of the USA TODAY network, "the largest local-to-national publishing and digital media organization in the country") has simplified 7-point summary, RICO charges, false statements and Kanye’s publicist: Takeaways from Trump's Georgia indictment. Opens with a RICO-is-for-mobsters primer, closes with:

In a separate count of the indictment, Trump attorney Sidney Powell and other associates are accused of unlawful possession of ballots and computer theft for using a computer in Coffee County with the intention of taking data from the machine.

The computer was the property of Dominion Voting Systems, a voting software company that Trump falsely accused of rigging voting machines for Biden.

The indictment also cites computer invasion of privacy, computer trespassing and conspiracy to defraud the state as other offenses related to the stolen computer.

Fox News in April agreed to pay $787.5 million to settle a lawsuit from Dominion for broadcasting falsehoods about the company's voting machines after the election.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:39 PM on August 15, 2023 [8 favorites]

Here is the Federal criminal removal statute, 28 U.S. Code § 1455.

It's the US District Court that rules on the removal request, not the Georgia court. The state prosecution is not automatically stayed while removal is pending. If it is 'clearly apparent' from the request that it should not be granted, the USDC can summarily reject it. If not rejected, a hearing is held. The rejection of the attempt to remove in the other case is not controlling, but it is potentially rather persuasive.

Aside from the potential for Executive hijinks if the trial isn't over before the election, Federal trials aren't televised.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:02 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

The defense lawyers are going to do their best to confuse every point, and they have been given a massive body to work with.

I've been given the impression that Trump has found it increasingly difficult to find competent lawyers who'd be able to put together that kind of line-by-line defense, though I'm not sure if my view has been distorted by listening to too much left-wing gloating.
posted by clawsoon at 5:11 PM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

It is an odd thing that a convicted felon in some states is disenfranchised (even after they have completed their sentence) but they are allowed to run for president (even if they are still in jail). Doesn't make sense.

You are forgetting about the racism. People with felony records are disproportionately black.
posted by Mitheral at 5:26 PM on August 15, 2023 [11 favorites]

> sotonohito: "For serious though, why DID it take three goddamn years to indict the motherfucker?"

I saw one commentator (though I forget who) mention in the context of the DC indictment that many, if not most, of the unnamed co-conspirators were lawyers, which also seems to be the case in the Atlanta indictment. Which meant that when their phones and/or other electronics were seized, each one of these pieces of evidence had to go through a procedure to ensure attorney-client privilege wasn't violated. Based on this commentator's previous experience with having to go through lawyers' correspondence, they said that this could easily chew up many, many months. I don't think this accounts for the full 3 years but it likely contributed some non-trivial amount of time.
posted by mhum at 6:07 PM on August 15, 2023 [22 favorites]

I find it extremely difficult to believe that it took three years to find the evidence when we had the phone calls way back in 2020. And the timing means he has a decent chance of winning the election and then pardoning himself and you know the Supreme Court will rule that he has the ability to do that.

If you come at the king you best not wait until he's back in the castle either.

Given the way rich people can drag out or shorten court cases at whim it seems altogether likely that none of these will be resolved before the first primary. Or the convention. Or even the election. They've all but given him a gift wrapped "run out the clock and win" strategy.

I also can't help but remember how many people kept assuring us that it was totally FINE that Mueller was running out the clock and taking forever because it took a long time to get everything set up but he was a real investigator and he was going to make sure the case was airtight.

And, of course, it turned out he was just running out the clock, he had no intention of ever even investigating Trump because of some stupid fucking MEMO from the goddamn Nixon era, and he really was just a Republican operative maliciously running out the clock to keep us from taking other action.

So, I'm a bit distrustful of claims that these things take time and it's totally reasonable for years and years to pass since the crime was committed without any action. Maybe I'm just being wrong and impatient or whatever. But I'm really distrustful of all this be patient stuff I keep hearing. Because it's never worked out well for us so far.
posted by sotonohito at 6:14 PM on August 15, 2023 [17 favorites]

It is an odd thing that a convicted felon in some states is disenfranchised (even after they have completed their sentence) but they are allowed to run for president (even if they are still in jail). Doesn't make sense.

Because it probably seemed obvious and just common sense that people wouldn’t vote for the felon or the guy in jail. Now hindsight is 20/20 and considering all the crap about age and being a natural born citizen this should have been included in the text.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:15 PM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

Your assessment of the Mueller runs counter to its actual content. Don't let Bill Barr's little summary overwrite the fact that Mueller states plainly that witness tampering had taken place and that Congress needed to do its job and impeach him.
posted by hippybear at 6:16 PM on August 15, 2023 [29 favorites]

As I was recently reminded, it all started here

If the Xtactles won't let you watch it, the transcript is :

Reporter : "will you commit to making sure there is a peaceful transferral of power after the election?"

TFG: "we'll have to see what happens, you know that, I've been complaining very strongly about the ballots and the ballots are a disaster..." (inaudible)

Reporter: "I understand that, but people are rioting, do you commit to making sure there's a peaceful transferral of power?"

TFG: "well... get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very peaceful... there won't be a transfer, frankly, there'll be a continuation and the ballots are out of control and you know it and you know who knows it better than anybody else? the democrats know it better than anybody else"

(that was posted Sept 23, 2020)

He absolutely, without question, was never going to concede and walk away quietly. We all knew that. We all said that. God help us if this rotten shitbag gets back in there. That'll be the end of it. I don't mean to doom-and-gloom, but it's hard to see us surviving part 2.
posted by revmitcz at 6:32 PM on August 15, 2023 [51 favorites]

I know and you know and everyone knows what Trump meant on the phone call, but does it hold up to a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard to a jury? I'm not sure I'd take that risk as a prosecutor.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:41 PM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

I had to roll a sanity check when someone said "11 million pages of load-ready exhibits" in Judge Chutkan's case.

Wait a minute, Chester. I'm a peaceful man.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:53 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

Don't have the link handy, but I believe DOJ told Chutkan that they had an index ready to share with the defense, highlighting all the important places in the exhibits where they can start reviewing. You know, because they're nice people (and they want the trial date ASAP)
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:12 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

Yeah, they're required to turn over all the material they've gathered as part of discovery, but they aren't trying to do the "bury them under a mountain of paper" kind of discovery dump. They will point out quite clearly everything they're using for evidence because they want a speedy trial.
posted by hippybear at 7:22 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election Fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete & will be presented by me at a major News Conference at 11:00 A.M. on Monday of next week in Bedminster, New Jersey.

I hope the Bed Bath & Beyond in Hoboken has a big parking lot.

he might get house arrest, an ankle bracelet, passport taken.

Home Alone 7 is shaping up to be the best entry in the whole series.
posted by mmoncur at 7:23 PM on August 15, 2023 [11 favorites]

And because that's how e-discovery works. It's still a shit-ton of material to digest.

(I highly recommend Zubulake's book if you are the kind of person to be interested in this sort of thing.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:24 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

Trump claims to be a billionaire and also he is scamming off millions of Americans to pay his legal bills. He can have an army of lawyers reading that material. Or he can't because he might not be a billionaire and has to pay the bills for all the co-conspirators to keep them on his side and anyway it is meaningless because he did the deeds and he knows it.
Everyone has the right to a fair trial, but if someone has made criming their livelihood, they can't complain that there is a lot of evidence.
posted by mumimor at 7:35 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

The Mark Meadows thing is so interesting. He clearly has a better lawyer than the others, and also it seems that he still has the backing of many establishment Republicans, like they see him as a normally corrupt conservative politician who got entwined in the Trump criminal conspiracy.
I've seen some commentators speculating that there might have been a lack of communication between Jack Smith and Fani Willis, but now I feel it's more like she is saying hell no, he can't get away with this because he is a good ol' boy.
posted by mumimor at 7:56 PM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

amen
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:57 PM on August 15, 2023

Yeah, it's turning into one of those NBC Must See TV Landmark Crossover Events where characters from all the shows spill over into all the other shows.
posted by hippybear at 8:16 PM on August 15, 2023 [12 favorites]

Yeah, it's turning into one of those NBC Must See TV Landmark Crossover Events where characters from all the shows spill over into all the other shows.

MCU: MAGA Crime Universe. Worst franchise ever.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:22 PM on August 15, 2023 [14 favorites]

I wonder how much money is going to be hoovered up by the Trump camp to pay various legal fees rather than going towards any campaign.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:23 PM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

What role will JFK Jr play in the big media circus on Monday?
posted by interogative mood at 8:30 PM on August 15, 2023

What role will JFK Jr play in the big media circus on Monday?

Third chair bassoon understudy
posted by StarkRoads at 8:32 PM on August 15, 2023 [10 favorites]

What role will JFK Jr play in the big media circus on Monday?

Third chair bassoon understudy

Godot, surely. Or Elijah.
posted by hippybear at 8:36 PM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

John Gruber: Holy Hell, Trump Did Use Twitter Direct Messages, There Were ‘Many’ of Them, and the Special Counsel Now Has Them

I am not at all surprised that “deleted” DMs are not in fact deleted, but rather hidden. I am slightly surprised that Trump — famously averse not just to using email and text messages, but even to his own lawyers taking written notes in meetings, so as not to leave a chain of evidence for his lifelong criminal activity — would use, of all things, the infamously unencrypted direct messaging feature on Twitter. To be clear, this is a pleasant surprise.

Lots of relevant links.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:40 PM on August 15, 2023 [30 favorites]

Re why it took so long, another theory I've seen put forward is that a lot of the laws being charged as broken had never been put to the test in court for these sorts of actions, and by waiting there's now a lot more court precedent to point to because now a lot of the smaller Jan 6 fish have been found guilty under those same laws. So there's less room for TFG's legal team to muddy the water or appeal.
posted by solotoro at 8:50 PM on August 15, 2023 [11 favorites]

Last I checked JFK Jr has been dead for awhile, so unless he rears from the grave as an enraged zombie, my guess is "not much?"

(OK, pretty sure the other Kennedy junior idiot was the intended reference, but I had to make a zombie joke.)
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:03 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

pretty sure the other Kennedy junior idiot was the intended reference

Would you believe the QAnon folks have some thoughts about JFK Jr.?
posted by mmascolino at 9:11 PM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, jenfullmoon, but this was probably about the conspiracy theory that JFK Jr. is not only alive but also will be TFG’s running mate.

On preview: oh good, someone else already broke it to you.
posted by Songdog at 9:14 PM on August 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

I’m sure the qanon folks are looking forward to JFK Jr finally emerging from occultation.
posted by interogative mood at 9:21 PM on August 15, 2023

I guarantee there are at least a few hardcore Q idiots who are big RFK Jr backers because they're confused about which one is the conspiracy one and they're wondering why nobody else is freaking out that he came back from his faked death just like the prophecies said or whatever
posted by jason_steakums at 9:22 PM on August 15, 2023 [16 favorites]

The founding fathers probably did not bar people in prison from serving political offices deliberately. They came from a time when kings and governments could more or less jail people on a whim. Religious wars and religion based persecution wasn't all that far from the time of the Declaration of Independence
posted by Jacen at 9:25 PM on August 15, 2023 [14 favorites]

Not to derail the thread but in Virginia and other places the law that disenfranchised felons was done as part of Jim Crow policies. They bragged about the strategy at the time. They disenfranchised felons and then used a combination of segregation laws and selective enforcement to make sure only the whites could vote.
posted by interogative mood at 9:52 PM on August 15, 2023 [12 favorites]

Oh, FFS, y'all. Q world is nutterpants.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:07 PM on August 15, 2023 [12 favorites]

would use, of all things, the infamously unencrypted direct messaging feature on Twitter

*clears throat*

"But her emails"
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:21 AM on August 16, 2023 [30 favorites]

Oh, FFS, y'all. Q world is nutterpants.

It is not hard to imagine that when DJT shuffles off this mortal coil that Q-types are going to come up with conspiracies such as:
a. he was killed
b. he faked his own death in order to (something something)
c. both a and b
d. something dumber than a, b, and c combined
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 12:21 AM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

I wonder how much money is going to be hoovered up by the Trump camp to pay various legal fees rather than going towards any campaign

Lots and lots and lots. Trump’s campaign finances are strained as legal peril mounts.

And it's pretty small potatoes at this point but it's virtually guaranteed that he's violating campaign finance laws by using campaign donations to pay legal fees, which he's trying to hide by playing shell games with multiple Political Action Committees.
posted by soundguy99 at 12:24 AM on August 16, 2023 [17 favorites]

hopefully it sucks all the money out of any actual republican campaigning
posted by ryanrs at 12:28 AM on August 16, 2023 [16 favorites]

Re:taking so long, there are 30 unindicted co conspirators. More trumpworld crooks are likely to be turning evidence than are being indicted.

That takes time. Also these are people the DA could probably have charged, this could have been much larger
posted by eustatic at 12:48 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

> Ultimately, U.S. District Judge Beryl Howell held Twitter in contempt of court in February, fining the company $350,000 for missing a court-ordered deadline to comply with Smith’s search warrant.

How is this a meaningful punishment?
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:28 AM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

For twitter? That's about half of their net worth atm.
posted by adept256 at 1:32 AM on August 16, 2023 [39 favorites]

> hopefully it sucks all the money out of any actual republican campaigning

Agreed. Every dollar TFG hoovers up ~~for lawyer fees~~ as a "campaign contribution" is a dollar not donated to a Republican candidate.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 1:53 AM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

> A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election

Hmm, someone forgot the first rule of criminal proceedings: When charged with a crime, above all do not give prosecutors any further giant bucketfuls of evidence of your guilt.
posted by flug at 2:19 AM on August 16, 2023 [10 favorites]

> held Twitter in contempt of court in February, fining the company $350,000 for missing a court-ordered deadline

They were actually only three days late in producing the goods. The fine was $50,000 the first day and doubled every day after that.

So $50,000 + $100,000 + $200,000 = $350,000.

The purpose was to get them to cough up the goods, and fast.

Mission accomplished.

Too bad they didn't delay another week or two, though: 10 days' fine would have been $51.2 million and 17 days would have been a cool $6.5 billion.

Day 20 we exceed the total amount Musk paid for the company way back when.

Can't say when the fine would have exceeded the current value of the company. About Day 4 maybe?
posted by flug at 2:29 AM on August 16, 2023 [34 favorites]

Semi-serious question: If DJT has to do a mugshot in Georgia, will he be allowed his usual amounts of make up?
On the one hand, that is how we usually see him. On the other, it significantly alters his appearance.
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 2:45 AM on August 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

> The purpose was to get them to cough up the goods, and fast.

Anatole France — 'The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread

posted by sebastienbailard at 3:09 AM on August 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

Be as angry as y’all want about the amount of time it has taken to get to this point in holding Trump responsible for his criming but why it has taken this long is no mystery. Attorney and author Teri Kanefield has a FAQ that specifically answers that and related questions.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:36 AM on August 16, 2023 [26 favorites]

The job of the Fulton County District Attorney is not to save democracy, it’s to prosecute the crimes that occur in her jurisdiction. If it’s falling to the Fulton County District Attorney to save democracy, things have already gone fairly seriously awry with your democracy. The fact that all these Trump indictments and the Michigan fake electors case are moving forward in relatively close succession suggests that this is about how much time it takes to do something like this correctly.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:17 AM on August 16, 2023 [34 favorites]

Calvin and the Duplicators I rather doubt anyone is going to mugshot Trump. He wants it, becuse it'd be great fodder for his campaign bullshit, but since the whole point of a mugshot is to get a nice clear image of a person who may or may not have any nice clear images around for later identification if they run, there's no point in mugshotting Trump. Everyone knows what he looks like.

So I rather hope they don't mugshot him.
posted by sotonohito at 5:04 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

Various news reports have confirmed that there will be no mugshot for that fucking guy for the reason explained above.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:10 AM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

Everyone knows what he looks like.

Good point! Thank you.
posted by Calvin and the Duplicators at 5:26 AM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

hopefully it sucks all the money out of any actual republican campaigning

This was actually a bone of contention amongst Republicans after their poor showing in the 22 midterms - Trump's various PAC's were supposedly sitting on something like $100 million, but they only spent around $20 million supporting Republican candidates. Lots of Republicans got mad because having more money could have made a difference.

Which of course led to speculation that either 1) they didn't really have $100 million and/or 2) he was banking big bucks for the big legal fees he saw coming. (Officially he wouldn't be saving it for his own campaign, because a campaign PAC is supposed to be entirely separate organizationally and financially from whatever other PAC's you've got control of. I'm sure Trump is stomping wildly all over those supposed boundaries, but you can tell he and his staff know it's illegitimate because like I said above they're playing shell games with various PAC's, shuttling money all around and back and forth. Which itself is undoubtedly costing him time and money.)
posted by soundguy99 at 5:27 AM on August 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

Metafilter: I'm not sure if my view has been distorted by listening to too much left-wing gloating.
posted by orange swan at 6:27 AM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

hopefully it sucks all the money out of any actual republican campaigning

Something mouth something god's ears.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:31 AM on August 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

>They came from a time when kings and governments could more or less jail people on a whim.

Aleksei Navalny, Viable Putin Rival, Is Barred From a Presidential Run
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:32 AM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

My understanding is that due to the more “aggressive” nature of the judicial system in Georgia Trump will probably have to show up at the jail and be processed (including mugshot) before his arraignment. It will hilarious if he has to eat the shit of these these Republican created populist “tough on crime” measures.
posted by interogative mood at 7:34 AM on August 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

My understanding is that due to the more “aggressive” nature of the judicial system in Georgia Trump will probably have to show up at the jail and be processed (including mugshot) before his arraignment.

Don't mugshots also typically include height and weight? (Probably not hand-size though…)
posted by nathan_teske at 7:57 AM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

If tfg does have to do time in georgia you can bet it'll be the softest time imaginable. Ain't nobody running those jails but good ol' boys.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:57 AM on August 16, 2023

Metafilter: ~~I'm not sure if~~ my view has been distorted by listening to too much left-wing gloating.
posted by slogger at 8:00 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

What kind of conclusive evidence could you possibly present in this press conference that you have somehow been unable to produce in all of the failed lawsuits and fundraising events?

50/50 it never sees the light of day and he uses that as proof that he's being muzzled and it's a freedom of speech issue, totally unfair, and he's somehow the victim moreso still.

I'm kind of hoping he follows through on this one though, it will be a ridiculous read.
posted by mazola at 8:08 AM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

The Lawfare Podcast covered two points brought up above:
-Does moving the case to federal court remove state charges? (No)
-Why did it take three years? (Likely because the prosecution wanted belt and suspenders - IE multiple strategies for securing a conviction given the individuals charged)

This is true. (Note: IAAL.) Removal to federal court simply means that the federal court has jurisdiction to hear the case rather than the state court. It doesn't change the nature of the charges, and therefore wouldn't convert an unpardonable crime into a pardonable crime.

Meadows' theory is that the federal court has jurisdiction because all of his actions were taken while acting within his role as a representative of the federal government (i.e. the state court should not rule on the propriety of actions taken by federal officials). It's a good theory and McGuireWoods is a good law firm. The obvious response from Willis's team is that a criminal conspiracy to overturn the results of an election is not an action taken within the scope of Meadows' duties as a federal official.

I honestly don't know how the federal judge will handle it -- ruling on removal will basically require a determination of one of the central issues of the case, i.e., whether Meadows was a participant in a criminal conspiracy.

As for the length of time it has taken to get to an indictment, remember that this indictment is the product of two grand juries - one to create an initial report and one to approve the charges. Grand juries generally meet once a week or so. That's not to say that the prosecutors weren't busily working on the case in between, but there are a lot of steps that need to happen.

Remember also that Trump's criminal conspiracy is not the only crime to occur in Fulton County in the last 2.5 years. Everyone in that office also has a full case load unrelated to Trump.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 8:27 AM on August 16, 2023 [19 favorites]

Let's assume for a moment that Trump gets equal treatment under the law, and also does get prison time in at least two of these cases. I have a question in that case: what are some of the ways this would normally be handled? Would someone concurrently serve Federal and state time from one prison? Would someone finish Fed time and then get state time? (Doubt it?) Would the state give you time served in acknowledgement of your Federal sentence? I'm curious the range of possibilities for prison time when someone is roughly simultaneously convicted at the state and Federal level.
posted by kensington314 at 8:34 AM on August 16, 2023

I always thought the length of time was making sure everything was ducks in a row and airtight. When you come at the king you best not miss and all that jazz. Because of the nature of who's involved and how much power they wield, everything is going under a microscope by everyone involved.

That too. It's not hyperbole to say that these four indictments will be the most important criminal trials in the history of the US. No one wants to be the one who fucks it up.

More specifically, it's important for all these prosecutors to get it not only airtight but as free of bias as humanly possible. Yes, we all knew immediately what Trump meant on his call with Raffensperger, but lots of other countries have a history of asserting trumped-up (sorry) charges against political opponents, so it's vital in these cases to get as many objective sign-offs as possible. That way, when these cases inevitably go up on appeal, not even the Trumpiest of judges will be able to poke holes in the evidence or presentation.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 8:41 AM on August 16, 2023 [18 favorites]

If tfg does have to do time in Georgia you can bet it'll be the softest time imaginable. Ain't nobody running those jails but good ol' boys.

The precedent here is Landsberg. Surprised it doesn't come up more often (like, all the time) in these discussions.
posted by Rash at 8:59 AM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election Fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete & will be presented by me at a major News Conference at 11:00 A.M. on Monday of next week

What kind of conclusive evidence could you possibly present in this press conference that you have somehow been unable to produce in all of the failed lawsuits and fundraising events?

None, of course. The answer is none.

I'd say there's about even chances for each of these 4 scenarios:

1) He produces nothing and claims that it's because The Report is soooooo complex that his people need more time to finish it. After that, like Infrastructure Week and his improved health care plan, the release of The Report will be "coming in two weeks", forever.

2) He produces nothing and claims that it's because his lawyers want to save it for the trial.

3) He gives one of his usual bullshit-fest speeches full of whining and lies, while waving around a prop folder full of paper that is supposedly The REPORT but he won't let anyone see it and it will turn out to be largely if not entirely blank pages. (For those who've forgotten, he has a history of producing "documents" that are just props.)

4) He actually does produce a written "report", but it's just all the same nonsense theories and "evidence" that got shot down in court or never introduced in court in the first place - the same garbage that Powell and Giuliani and Eastman and other co-conspirators just spewed out on Fox News & OANN, only typed up and printed out and put in a binder.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:10 AM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

The precedent here is Landsberg. Surprised it doesn't come up more often (like, all the time) in these discussions.

Time is not on TFG's side, so that's where Landsberg differs (among other things).

How much the movement and the man are intertwined becomes important here because running out the clock on TFG seems possible but not might be the whole game anyway.
posted by mazola at 9:11 AM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

(If TFG goes to prison, he ain't going to write a terrible but influential book. He's likely to throw ketchup at the walls.)
posted by mazola at 9:18 AM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

Yes. Hitler was 34 when he was incarcerated, TFG will likely be 80+.
posted by Mitheral at 9:19 AM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

This cheering little note was on CNN today:

Rudy Giuliani is staring down hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal bills and sanctions amid numerous lawsuits in addition to the new criminal charges – related to his work for Donald Trump after the 2020 election.

In court on Monday, the former New York City mayor said the legal quagmires have left him effectively out of cash. He even appears to have responded to some of the money crunch by listing for sale a 3-bedroom Manhattan apartment he owns for $6.5 million.

I shall now sing the song of my people: "ha ha ha ha ha fuck you you fucking fuck".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:25 AM on August 16, 2023 [73 favorites]

> He has called for his mob to protest/riot several times now, with no response.... The vast majority of Trump voters are middle-aged white people who like to cos-play as tough guys with guns in trucks, but don't like the reality of getting shot or sent to jail.

Which makes them more dangerous to the random vulnerable person or polling place they encounter with no witnesses from the "wrong" "side". It's time for vigilance and mutual aid.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 9:29 AM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

Today I learned that the Callipygosian people have a rich, vibrant, and inspirational musical tradition!
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:42 AM on August 16, 2023 [28 favorites]

Today I learned that the Callipygosian people have a rich, vibrant, and inspirational musical tradition!

The motto of their Great House: “Coxis Non Mentior”
posted by notoriety public at 9:47 AM on August 16, 2023 [13 favorites]

For those who've forgotten, he has a history of producing "documents" that are just props.

And note this is merely a variation of Joseph McCarthey's list of 'Communists in the State Department' he was always waving around. After a single performance like that, you'd expect some Boy Who Cried Wolf push-back against tfg.
posted by Rash at 10:00 AM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

“A Public Service,” A. R. Moxon, The Reframe, 16 August 2023

Translating the President's many crimes for the Fox News watchers, to help them understand why they are so shocking and dangerous.

posted by ob1quixote at 10:10 AM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

AP headline: Americans are divided along party lines over Trump’s actions in election cases, AP-NORC poll shows

Actual poll:
Overall, 35% of Americans have a favorable view of Trump and 62% unfavorable. Among Republicans, though, seven in 10 view the former president favorably, and about 6 in 10 say they want him to make another run for the White House.
posted by Artw at 10:15 AM on August 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

As with everything Trump does the report will probably be a lazy, half assed bit of total garbage that will fall apart. Remember his sharpie annotated hurricane map that totally proved the NWS lied to him and he didn’t make a mistake.
posted by interogative mood at 10:20 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

And note this is merely a variation of Joseph McCarthey's list of 'Communists in the State Department' he was always waving around. After a single performance like that, you'd expect some Boy Who Cried Wolf push-back against tfg.

But doing so takes work, and it's so much easier to write up a he-said, she-said, view-from nowhere puffery of false equivalence (like NPR's preferred format, "critic say the folder was full of nothing but blank paper," when the facts are actually verifiable) and call it a day.
posted by Gelatin at 10:21 AM on August 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

The big Trump press conference on Monday isn't going to happen. He just isn't going to mention it again, and if he's ever asked about it, he'll just vomit word salad.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:29 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

Like that motherfucker would ever eat words or salad...
posted by Navelgazer at 10:34 AM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

Among Republicans, though, seven in 10 view the former president favorably, and about 6 in 10 say they want him to make another run for the White House.

Wait. 70% favorability and only 60% want him to run in 2024 *among Republicans*? That's weaker than I'd expect.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:48 AM on August 16, 2023 [7 favorites]

If TFG goes to prison, he ain't going to write a terrible but influential book.

I remind you that he's already not-written several best-sellers.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:48 AM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

Wait. 70% favorability and only 60% want him to run in 2024 *among Republicans*? That's weaker than I'd expect.

From the last data I saw, that's a bit more than Democrats who think Biden should run for a second term.
posted by Foosnark at 11:04 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

Overall, 35% of Americans have a favorable view

It's getting closer and closer to the classic crazification factor. And we can't ever go lower than that.
posted by mumimor at 11:05 AM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

And note this is merely a variation of Joseph McCarthey's list of 'Communists in the State Department' he was always waving around.

Interesting thought, in that Roy Cohn literally connects both McCarthy and Trump through the decades.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:12 AM on August 16, 2023 [11 favorites]

that's a bit more than Democrats who think Biden should run

For sure, but political base enthusiasm has always been Biden's weakness and Trump's strength. What happens if that evens out?
posted by saturday_morning at 11:26 AM on August 16, 2023

>>It is an odd thing that a convicted felon in some states is disenfranchised (even after they have completed their sentence) but they are allowed to run for president (even if they are still in jail). Doesn't make sense.

Nobody is charge of making the justice system consistent.

>Unintended consequences. The Constitution was written with checks and balances that were meant to prevent someone like this from taking power, or certainly for removing them from power once in office and proven bad. Apparently the mindsets of those brilliant men didn't allow them to conceive of someone who might be supported in their efforts and acquitted of their actions by the very mechanisms they put in place.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. I think it's to their credit that it took over two centuries for this mess to happen.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:33 AM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

Is it fair to say the electorial college was created to prevent people like Trump, in either of his two elections?
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:04 PM on August 16, 2023

No, the electoral college was a placating measure for slave-holding states, allowing them to count the people living in the states as people even if they didn't have a vote to count. It wasn't designed as a safety valve or prevention measure for anything.
posted by hippybear at 12:09 PM on August 16, 2023 [29 favorites]

Is it fair to say the electorial college was created to prevent people like Trump, in either of his two elections?

In opposite world maybe. The electoral college was to ensure the power of Southern Whites was never diluted. That's all it's ever done and all it continues to do.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:11 PM on August 16, 2023 [23 favorites]

Here, from The Brennan Center For Justice, The Electoral College’s Racist Origins
posted by hippybear at 12:11 PM on August 16, 2023 [11 favorites]

Is it fair to say the electorial college was created to prevent people like Trump, in either of his two elections?

Yes, because the Framers intended that if a crook won the popular vote by appealing to the masses' venality, the electors would choose someone else instead. They didn't intend for the electors to be a rubber stamp, but in general they are, despite talk in every close election of so-called "faithless electors" tipping the balance. If memory serves me correctly, many state laws require the electors -- who are often prominent state party members anyway -- to vote in accordance with the state results.

The Framers did, however, completely fail to anticipate the development and power of political parties. They believed that Congress would readily impeach a President that overstepped his authority, not that party loyalty would lead them to look the other way.
posted by Gelatin at 12:12 PM on August 16, 2023 [10 favorites]

> Nancy Lebovitz: "I think it's to their credit that it took over two centuries for this mess to happen."

While it took >200 years for this specific mess to happen, I would like to point out that there was a previous presidential election that got kind of fubar'd, in part due to conflicting slates of electors being sent up from the states, the 1876 election. It was ultimately resolved with the the Compromise of 1877 (aka the Corrupt Bargain) which led to the withdrawal of Northern troops from the South and the end of the Reconstruction era.
posted by mhum at 12:27 PM on August 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

!!!
posted by y2karl at 12:31 PM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

Is it fair to say the electorial college was created to prevent people like Trump, in either of his two elections?

Er, uh, kind of. The structure almost made sense in an 18th-century information-travels-at-the-speed-of-horses not-very-urbanized society. As I understand it, the idea was that even if you, individually, know nothing about goings-on in the national halls of power, some upstanding citizen in your general geographic area does, and such an upstanding person chosen by the people of every district could then make an informed choice about a nation-level executive, and cast two votes; the second most popular candidate would be the vice-president. Certainly blunting the impact of demagoguery was, at least in theory, a reason for such a setup, that the people doing the actual president-choosing would be respected, informed, and intelligent, and that the two best-qualified candidates would be selected, and that ideologies would be respected by the notion that many communities would have multiple promising electors, so people would vote for the one most ideologically aligned with them.

This worked more-or-less as designed for exactly two elections. And they were two utterly uncontroversial elections, where the nation was united behind George Washington despite (or perhaps because of) his lack of any real clear ideological identity. But the VP elections for both 1788 and 1792 showed a wide range of ideologically varied candidates, the way the drafters of the Constitution ostensibly intended.

What the architects of the potitical system didn't see coming (and probably should have, because they were the ones who did it) was formation of political parties. By 1796 the electors showed tremendous party discipline: every single one of the 138 electors placed a vote for either John Adams or Thomas Jefferson (and Francis Deakins, from Maryland, voted for both; dunno what his deal was); second votes (effectively but not officially "VP votes") were all over the place but still party-loyal. The clusterfuck of 1800, where too much party discipline among the Democratic-Republicans accidentally lead to a tie, resulted in the 12th amendment, which basically killed even the remote possibility of a split-ticket executive.

Another thing which presumably was not intended but which came about quickly was winner-takes-all being the norm. Apparently electors were, in many places, selected by the state legislature or a statewide vote. Once electors had clear political tags in the form of party affiliation, a legislative or popular majority statewide had no good reason to choose an ideologically diverse slate.

The tl;dr: the electoral college was designed by the writers of the Constitution as a way to distill wisdom out of the selections of politically unsophisticated citizen yeoman farmers in the absence of any sort of party system. Said writers then formed political parties and delivered a large dose of political education to the electorate and fucked up what they'd built.
posted by jackbishop at 12:44 PM on August 16, 2023 [10 favorites]

Also: slavery.
posted by mazola at 1:07 PM on August 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

When Trump is sentenced, I expect it will be some sort of house arrest. it would be difficult for him to be safe in any prison. It should not be at any of his properties, where he will bill taxpayers for feeding and housing his SS detail. He should pay for his own prison-at-home.

The corrupt GOP has not allowed meaningful investigation of Trump or his family's corrupt actions, which could really have moved this along. Biden is skilled at politics and may have affected the timing of federal and even state indictments. Hardcore deplorables are not going to stop. Extreme Right/ Corporations/ Big Money will support him because he advances their pet causes and mostly because he appoints/ encourages judges who are pro-money, pro-GOP, corrupt. Ideally, the Trump voters who like his bluster and posturing and maybe even tacitly approve of his racism will have enough reason to vote for somebody else. I think there's enough there for another Biden/ Harris win.

But start now with pushing back on RFK. Jr., Trump, etc., because it's going to be yet another critical election. GOPers are having a debate this month, which will amount to a big, free ad for their vicious candidates.
posted by theora55 at 1:12 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

The Georgia grand jurors may have been doxed.

I hope they, and anyone on the list(s) for any reason, stay safe.
posted by humbug at 1:20 PM on August 16, 2023 [14 favorites]

The chances of Trump showing up for this debate are pretty minimal, or so those who know about such things tell me. So that'll mean Christie beats up on both Trump in absentia and DeSantis to his face for every minute of his time. The rest of the debate doesn't really matter. None of those people have any traction at all, and I only know about them because I work to keep informed, something most of the US doesn't bother to do at all.

If this debate does anything at all, it reshuffles the bottom of the deck and so maybe suddenly someone new is third in the race.

There is also the possibility that DeSantis' campaign doesn't survive to the end of the month. I'm betting regardless, actually seeing and hearing DeSantis moves him into complete failure territory shortly after the debate.
posted by hippybear at 1:20 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

“Trump supporters post names and addresses of Georgia grand jurors online,” Blayne Alexander and Ryan J. Reilly, NBC News, 16 Aug 2023

A fringe website featured the purported names and addresses of the Fulton County grand jury that indicted Trump and 18 others for their efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

⋮

“These jurors have signed their death warrant by falsely indicting President Trump," read one post on a pro-Trump forum in response to a post including the names of jurors, which was viewed by NBC News.

posted by ob1quixote at 1:22 PM on August 16, 2023 [12 favorites]

Unmasking the Co-Conspirators in Trump’s Georgia Indictment, The Daily Beast
"The Daily Beast has cross-referenced the Fulton County indictment with available documents—like the House Jan. 6 committee’s trove of evidence, other Trump indictments, and contemporaneous news reports—to potentially identify up to 21 of the 30 anonymous co-conspirators."
posted by mcdoublewide at 1:29 PM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

I do note: I don't see any doxxed lists of co-conspirators in any of these cases being posted online with calls for their execution. It's an interesting bit of contrasts there.
posted by hippybear at 1:31 PM on August 16, 2023 [15 favorites]

When Trump is sentenced, I expect it will be some sort of house arrest. it would be difficult for him to be safe in any prison.

An island or archipelago would seem suitable: Tristan de Cunha, the Falklands, Pitcairn and Elba come to mind. But then, so does any well mined former battlefield in Ukraine -- throw up a chain link fence around it, airdrop field rations, diet Cokes and Bob's your uncle
posted by y2karl at 1:37 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

You're aware Napoleon got off of Elba really really quickly, right
posted by StarkRoads at 1:51 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

When Trump is sentenced, I expect it will be some sort of house arrest. it would be difficult for him to be safe in any prison.

How about Guantànamo?
posted by jabo at 1:51 PM on August 16, 2023 [16 favorites]

You're aware Napoleon got off of Elba really really quickly, right

And with good reason; the tacos are terrible.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:53 PM on August 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

The US prison system houses some of the world’s most notorious criminals and terrorists. I’m sure it can handle Donald Trump. We can send him to the Supermax Prison at Florence Colorado and he’ll be very safe.
posted by interogative mood at 2:10 PM on August 16, 2023 [10 favorites]

Oh, dear, St. Helena by all means.
posted by y2karl at 2:22 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

> "it would be difficult for him to be safe in any prison."

I've seen variants on this a lot, and it's a weird take. Important people get imprisoned all the time! All over the world! Including former heads of state! It's really not a problem with even a minor amount of forethought. This just seems like more of that weird American Exceptionalism that takes the form of, "It's just completely unpossible for us to do the thing that's done all the time everywhere else."
posted by kyrademon at 2:30 PM on August 16, 2023 [44 favorites]

Dropping Trump onto Epstein's private island and then sealing it off from the rest of the world with an impenetrable dome would be a poetic twist.
posted by delfin at 2:35 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

To be fair, few countries have as mammoth a prison system as extensively populated with people trained to be violent by their time in prison as we have here in the US.
posted by hippybear at 2:36 PM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

Hands up who's surprised that some anonymous patriot hero on (8chan or the.donald or somewhere of similar lack of redeeming value) would post death threats towards the grand jurors. I mean, this is the global age, so it's not JUST a "someone in the South did something that angry white people didn't like, so it's violence time" thing; they could have been from anywhere. But Trumpoids? Responding to just about anything with threats of violence? The hell you say.

That said, I have a feeling that some people may be in line for a valuable lesson about PERCEIVED anonymity in the computer age.
posted by delfin at 2:41 PM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

That said, I have a feeling that some people may be in line for a valuable lesson about PERCEIVED anonymity in the computer age.

Vide licet TFG’s X DMs.
posted by susiswimmer at 2:45 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

Making Attorneys GiveSendGo Attorneys

Former Trump attorney Jenna Ellis is crowdfunding her Georgia indictment defense fees

As of midday Wednesday afternoon, Ellis had raised more than $13,000, according to the crowdfunding page. She's also managed to raise more than 1,000 prayers, as the site provides the option for supporters to send those her way as well as financial donations.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:46 PM on August 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

She's also managed to raise more than 1,000 prayers, as the site provides the option for supporters to send those her way as well as financial donations.

No option to send thoughts? I'm too lazy for prayers, but thoughts I could manage.
posted by hippybear at 2:51 PM on August 16, 2023 [22 favorites]

The Fulton County Jail is so terrible that nobody should be in there at all period. Inmate dies in Fulton County Jail Friday, 6th to die within 8 months, officials say (including one inmate in the medical unit who died covered in bed bug bites)
posted by hydropsyche at 2:53 PM on August 16, 2023 [7 favorites]

On topic, two life long friends of mine have Trump loving grown sons. And the things they have to endure when visiting the inlaws. I have mentioned this to other friends who then volunteered they too have MAGA relatives. I sent them all Robert Reich's Five Facts about Trump’s Indictments -- in preparation for those Thanksgiving dinners.
posted by y2karl at 2:55 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

it would be difficult for him to be safe in any prison.

I’ve seen this stated in the indictment threads by several people, and I’d really appreciate it if someone could explain how this could possibly be the case. Like, how could protecting him in a private wing of a prison be any more difficult than protecting him at the Iowa state fair?
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 3:18 PM on August 16, 2023 [10 favorites]

Are Napoleon's old digs at Elba usable?
posted by emjaybee at 3:21 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

Are Napoleon's old digs at Elba usable?

Very much so. But since Italy is on the march towards the far right, it isn't really a solution. St. Helena would be far better. But since the UK is on the march towards something weird that is hard to foresee, the US will have to deal with this problem on its own. Maybe a weather station in Alaska?
posted by mumimor at 3:28 PM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

“Trump supporters post names and addresses of Georgia grand jurors online,” Blayne Alexander and Ryan J. Reilly, NBC News, 16 Aug 2023

Jesus, we're a fucking banana republic.
posted by bluesky43 at 3:42 PM on August 16, 2023 [16 favorites]

Clarice proposes sending Hannibal Lecter to Anthrax Island. There’s a nice resonance in the fact that Trump signed a bill preventing it from private sale.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:43 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

Guantanamo would be the most fitting karmically but I feel like Greenland has its merits. A remote building with sufficient heat and food and facilities and so on, I'm not a monster, but no entertainment except an old pack of cards and a Kindle full of books banned by Republicans. You can apply for a permit to visit him, but why would you?
posted by emjaybee at 3:43 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

I feel like Greenland has its merits

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure he's not welcome.
posted by mumimor at 3:46 PM on August 16, 2023 [20 favorites]

Kind of poetic when he thought he was going to be able to buy it at one point though.
posted by LionIndex at 3:49 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

Incredible. Does he just get one set of indictments a week now? I can’t even imagine someone becoming more indicted.

Oh, I sure can. Can I ever. Specifically, I can imagine him becoming more indicted.

I keep reading Harrison Floyd as Harrison Ford....

Not kidding: I read this as "I keep reading Harrison Ford as Harrison Ford".

And DeSantis? He's Ted Cruz with even less personality.

Hey, be fair. They've both got tons of personality. Evil is a personality.
posted by Flunkie at 4:00 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

Given the stakes, I wonder if Trump will be judged competent to stand trial: Competence to stand trial relates to the defendant's ability to understand the criminal proceedings, not the crime itself... Authorities will arrest and hold the defendant in custody and the prosecution will file criminal charges, but the case can't advance until the defendant's competency is "restored." Among the points a court should consider are whether the defendant can:

-- adequately communicate with defense counsel
-- understand and process information
-- make decisions regarding the case, and
-- understand the elements of the charges, the gravity of the charges, and the possible penalties

Surprise visit to Walter Reed in Nov. 2019; Oct. 2020 Covid-19 infection, hospitalization, and treatments; ludicrous responses to recent legal proceedings; and yes, he's 77 and has a family history of Alzheimer's disease (father Fred). Speculation about Trump's possible dementia/stage of dementia has come from longtime acquaintance Joe Scarborough, in 2018, from mental health professionals (in a Jan. 2018 letter to WH physician Ronny Jackson, noting the marked deterioration in verbal functioning), and, allegedly, former WH strategist Steve Bannon was convinced Trump was in the early stages of the disease.

Trump's ego wouldn't endorse it and "legally incompetent" would be spun a different way, every 36 hours, afterward, but I don't think this option is off the table for his various handlers.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:06 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

Trump would never go for a Hail Mary play like that - ego aside, his whole presidential campaign is predicated on Biden being old and feebleminded.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:17 PM on August 16, 2023 [9 favorites]

The names of the grand jurors were actually listed in the indictment - what's been released (ie the doxing) is their purported addresses - I bet there will now be one or two cases where someone with the same name gets swatted
posted by mbo at 4:23 PM on August 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

Whoever decided to put that list of names in the indictment did not understand who they are dealing with. When I saw that list when reading the indictment I cringed at the thought of what it could develop into. I hope those people are under guard now and for a longtime afterwards. There are probably loads of pseudo patriots ready to defend their hero.
posted by njohnson23 at 4:30 PM on August 16, 2023

It might be a requirement of Georgia law. I don't think anything in this process is being done by anyone who doesn't understand who they are dealing with or what the implications could be.
posted by hippybear at 4:34 PM on August 16, 2023 [12 favorites]

So there are clear guidelines to determine competency to stand trial. Where are the same guidelines to determine competency to run for and be president?
posted by njohnson23 at 4:34 PM on August 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

I just read a great long article about busting a bunch of criminals involved in buying stolen catalytic converters (FPP Cat-Scam - thanks, chavenet!), and as I read, I kept thinking of the "why'd it take so long" conversation here. This was an investigation that started in May 2021, with a bunch of coordinated arrests across the country in November 2022. At least one indictment (PDF) was filed under seal in October 2022. It's very different from the Georgia indictment, of course, but it also involves conspiracy across multiple states. Reading the Bloomberg story linked in that FPP gave a very clear picture of the months and months of piecing things together, the surveillance, the many different warrants that were obtained over time, and the attempt to arrest not just one guy, but major players, in hopes of making an actual difference in the plague of thefts instead of just sending one guy to jail.

Food for thought, for me at least.
posted by kristi at 4:38 PM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

Where are the same guidelines to determine competency to run for and be president?

if you go by the US Constitution, being a white US-born* (ie white) slaveowner over 35 (ie survived one or another plague or whathaveyou) has been a historically-sufficient threshold
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:43 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

No option to send thoughts? I'm too lazy for prayers, but thoughts I could manage.

Does "I think you should go to jail" count?
posted by Sparx at 4:51 PM on August 16, 2023 [15 favorites]

So, we now know why law professor, Trump supporter, and legal defender of fascism John Eastman is desperately trying to delay his disbarment hearing - he did a stupid thing and waived his right against self-incrimination in it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:12 PM on August 16, 2023 [21 favorites]

I've seen variants on this a lot, and it's a weird take. Important people get imprisoned all the time! All over the world! Including former heads of state! It's really not a problem with even a minor amount of forethought. This just seems like more of that weird American Exceptionalism that takes the form of, "It's just completely unpossible for us to do the thing that's done all the time everywhere else."

It's been linked here before, but Peru built a special jail for ex-presidents, and has now filled it to overflowing.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:14 PM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

over on the last indictment thread, I noted that a Danish Journalist had posted new material about the days right after the election. Well that news has now reached MSNBC so now you can all see what I was posting about.
posted by mumimor at 4:34 PM

Fucking Roger Stone. I feel like my life has been bookended by two of the most corrupt, treasonous presidents in US history.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:20 PM on August 16, 2023 [10 favorites]

So, we now know why law professor, Trump supporter, and legal defender of fascism John Eastman is desperately trying to delay his disbarment hearing - he did a stupid thing and waived his right against self-incrimination in it.

OMG. This is hilarious and delicious and I have no words.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:37 PM on August 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

Maybe a weather station in Alaska?

Well overall, polar opposites aside, The Thing has come to my mind at times. Certainly the melting nacreous blob of flesh aspect, at least. Not so much the diabolical interstellar alien supergenius part.
posted by y2karl at 5:51 PM on August 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

Well that news has now reached MSNBC yt so now you can all see what I was posting about.

ah, roger stone - did anyone see that apple laptop with the "what would nixon do?" sticker on it?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:08 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

Maybe a weather station in Alaska?

Build him a highly secure prison on North Brother Island. Name it the Mary Mallon Memorial Prison. Let him be tantalizingly close to NYC, but entirely out of reach from his little cell block in the East River.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 6:12 PM on August 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

This just seems like more of that weird American Exceptionalism that takes the form of, "It's just completely unpossible for us to do the thing that's done all the time everywhere else."

See also gun control and healthcare.
posted by Pouteria at 6:12 PM on August 16, 2023 [19 favorites]

I think Mark Meadows’ legal argument on the removal jurisdiction issue is not frivolous, but it feels off since the Hatch Act limits his involvement in campaigning, so it really can’t be part of his duties.

I’m just so happy Rudy Giuliani (loved his work in BORAT 2) and Jenna Ellis are also facing charges. Having just watched PAINKILLER on Netflix - an epic takedown of the corrupt billionaire Sackler Family’s Purdue Pharma scheme to create the OxyContin drug epidemic - I learned Rudy Giuliani was a member of the Purdue Pharma legal team.
posted by edithkeeler at 6:18 PM on August 16, 2023 [10 favorites]

The conservative/libertarian Cato Institute makes some solid points in arguing that Trump is toast.

They point to the difficulty of defending a client who is all over the place, lacks self restraint in four separate and concurrent criminal trials. Especially when there is a RICO case with all those other co-defendants some of whom will probably flip.
posted by interogative mood at 6:19 PM on August 16, 2023 [7 favorites]

ah, roger stone - did anyone see that apple laptop with the "what would nixon do?" sticker on it?

Not to mention the tattoo!
posted by susiswimmer at 6:23 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

Especially when there is a RICO case with all those other co-defendants some of whom will probably flip.

Yeah, when the cheating teachers were tried in Georgia under RICO, they started off with something like 30 co-defendants but went to trial with maybe a dozen.
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

(loved his work in BORAT 2)

If there is anything Borat taught us, it's that Rudy Giuliani really knows how to tuck in his pants.
posted by y2karl at 6:51 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

Especially when there is a RICO case with all those other co-defendants some of whom will probably flip.

If I was one of the lower-level defendants in that case, I'd be flipping so hard I'd look like a landed trout. I'm sure the true believers like Eastman won't turn, but everyone further down the scale is going to have a lot more incentive to flip than hold the course, especially if they start having to have Gofundme's for lawyer fees.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:55 PM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

Remember Cassidy Hutchinson, who testified at the Jan 6 committee, ditched the lawyer Trump paid* for because he asked her to commit perjury? Some of these defendants, like Nauta in the federal case, have Trump lawyers too.

They probably think this is a kind gesture of support, but if Trump is paying* for your lawyer, they're working for Trump.

I'd rather take the gofundme lawyer.

* wait for the cheque to clear. Though I do remember a recent report that the majority of PAC donations were going to legal fees rather than campaigns.
posted by adept256 at 7:29 PM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

please let Sidney Powell represent herself in court please let Sidney Powell represent herself in court
posted by delfin at 7:46 PM on August 16, 2023 [15 favorites]

Speaking of flipping, Giuliani went hat in hand to Trump for help in paying legal bills and got the brush off.

Not exactly the person you want to piss off by hanging them out to dry.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:47 PM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

I guess I am not so sure that the lowest-level ones will be more likely to flip. They may very well be True Believers, and be totally on board with the idea of so directly helping Trump. They're saving America from communist Nazi pedophile Satan worshippers, or whatever the crazy-du-jour is nowadays, and Trump turning on the (ahem) "charm" offensive for them personally may be a dream come true for them.

Many of the higher level ones are themselves lawyers; while some of them (e.g. Powell) may be True Believers too, I think there's probably a gradient of True Believerhood, and they can all, or almost all, see where this is quite possibly heading even if they truly believe that it shouldn't head that way. They also are more likely to be able to get themselves competent, dedicated, independent defense attorneys than the low-level ones are. I imagine the low-level ones might depend on the "generosity" of Trump or shadowy Trump-affiliated groups for their legal defense, and consider themselves genuinely, thankfully indebted for it.
posted by Flunkie at 7:51 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

please let Sidney Powell represent herself in court please let Sidney Powell represent herself in court

As long as we're dreaming here... please let Donald Trump represent himself in court please let Donald Trump represent himself in court
posted by Flunkie at 7:54 PM on August 16, 2023 [9 favorites]

From the CNN story linked immediately above "... making several pitches about how paying Giuliani’s bills was ultimately in Trump’s best interest. "

The initial paragraphs of that story imply strongly that that this is an offer Trump can't refuse... and then even goes on explicitly to discuss the pressure on Giuliani to co-operate. I wonder if Trump has ever considered his "dignity wraith*" followers as able to turn the tables and shake him down.

(The term "dignity wraith" was coined by Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo to describe how even formerly respectable folks end up drained of all dignity and a pathetic shadow after prolonged association with Trump).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:24 PM on August 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

He may have to if he pisses off and/or refuses to pay all his lawyers.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:26 PM on August 16, 2023

Imagine if TFG had to accept a public defender...

(Who, as Ms. Windo was one for a decade, would probably be better than the clown-show lawyers he keeps "hiring").
posted by Windopaene at 8:41 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

Trump's never had dignity wraiths being vulnerable to federal prosecution and thus able to be turned before in his life. This is a thing he's never confronted before and has never imagined.
posted by hippybear at 8:41 PM on August 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

Given the number of unindicted co-conspirators I'm guessing that the lower level folks have been cutting deals left and right already. It would not surprise me if those that are left stay the course.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:47 PM on August 16, 2023 [9 favorites]

I guess I am not so sure that the lowest-level ones will be more likely to flip.

I'm completely, 100% supportive of the higher-level people flipping first if they want to. I just want to see the clown car come unglued.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:53 PM on August 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

Michael Cohen flipped. He was busted for the hush money payments and spilled his guts. Okay, not federal, but he did make this testimony to congress back in February 2019:

Cohen: fears no 'peaceful transition' if Trump loses in 2020 (reuters)
“Given my experience working for Mr. Trump, I fear that if he loses the election in 2020, there will never be a peaceful transition of power,” Cohen said during his closing remarks before the House of Representatives Oversight Committee.

He understood Trump well enough to predict January 6 and still worked for the guy, until he was caught holding the bag.

He went to prison while Trump walked free because YoU CaNt InDiCt a SiTtInG PrEsIdEnt - the most bullshit above-the-law no-equal-justice fuckery, why is that a thing, I don't even.
posted by adept256 at 9:31 PM on August 16, 2023 [17 favorites]

There was a 2016 article about what each candidate would be like in a bar fight, and the line on Trump was that as soon as he started losing he'd claim that it was unfair and that the fight had to be restarted with rules favourable to him.

...or something like that. It turned out to be a spot-on description of him, but I haven't been able to find it again for a while now.
posted by clawsoon at 9:40 PM on August 16, 2023 [7 favorites]

Was it The Presidential Candidates Ranked By Their Usefulness In A Bar Fight? [bitterempire.com]
posted by porpoise at 9:49 PM on August 16, 2023 [13 favorites]

Trump's never had dignity wraiths being vulnerable to federal prosecution

Paul Manafort was prosecuted in two federal courts, got years-long sentences, began serving that time, and had been released to home confinement (b/c of the looming specter of Covid-19) for about six months when Trump pardoned him late December 2020.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:56 PM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

You needed at least some dignity before you could become a dignity wraith though.
posted by adept256 at 10:03 PM on August 16, 2023 [9 favorites]

Was it The Presidential Candidates Ranked By Their Usefulness In A Bar Fight? [bitterempire.com]

That's the one, thanks!
posted by clawsoon at 10:04 PM on August 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

...not sure that it got Lindsay Graham right, though.
posted by clawsoon at 10:30 PM on August 16, 2023

There's no one left to give Trump any Guidance; so with all his accumulated maluses he's bound to roll a 1 and turn them all into ignominy wraiths.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:37 AM on August 17, 2023

Trump's legal advisers urge him to cancel press conference to refute Georgia allegations: Sources.
posted by mazola at 6:47 AM on August 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

Just Security takes a guess at the identities of the unindicted co-conspirators. (Scribd link.)
posted by humbug at 7:10 AM on August 17, 2023

It looks like whoever had “I wanted to show you this proof, but my lawyers won’t let me! so unfair!”
As trumps answer wins the pool
posted by das_2099 at 7:19 AM on August 17, 2023 [17 favorites]

It's at least five times more likely he'll accidentally admit guilt in one of the charges than change the mind a single person about his guilt.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:27 AM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]

North Brother Island

Hart Island, there are old jails there and the view should be instructive.

Since 1869, New York City has buried its unclaimed dead on the island, which is just over a kilometre of land east of Orchard Beach in the Bronx. That includes people whose families never claimed the body, often because they couldn't afford funeral costs. It also includes the mass graves of people who died from diseases such as COVID-19, stillborn infants, victims of crime, and people who may have come from abroad.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:30 AM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

Elon Musk has been eerily quiet about being held in contempt by Beryl Howell since the DC Circuit opinion was first released on August 9.

It’s not like him to pass up the opportunity to make an obnoxious comment.

Which is why I’m interested in what Musk was doing during the period when Xitter’s counsel was stalling on the DOJ request — including a visit to Kevin McCarthy on January 26.
posted by Artw at 7:46 AM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

haha, if Musk is embroiled in this indictment web, that would be beyond delicious.

Also, when I read Xitter, in my head its Shitter.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:54 AM on August 17, 2023 [23 favorites]

Abstract
Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment forbids holding office by former office holders who then participate in insurrection or rebellion. Because of a range of misperceptions and mistaken assumptions, Section Three’s full legal consequences have not been appreciated or enforced. This article corrects those mistakes by setting forth the full sweep and force of Section Three.
... in particular, it disqualifies former President Donald Trump, and potentially many others, because of their participation in the attempted overthrow of the 2020 presidential election.
— Baude, William and Paulsen, Michael Stokes, The Sweep and Force of Section Three (August 9, 2023). University of Pennsylvania Law Review, Vol. 172, Forthcoming , Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=4532751

Interesting read but I can't help but think it's wishful thinking and/or impossible to apply (but it's a serious argument from people smarter than me).
posted by mazola at 8:28 AM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

Yeah that sounds like some MSNBC One Weird Trick nonsense, which never plays out.
posted by Artw at 8:32 AM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

I think it's worth noting that the authors of that 14th amendment argument are both involved in The Federalist Society.
posted by mcdoublewide at 8:34 AM on August 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the Republican party. They have entirely given up on being a real political party that is engaged in government. Instead, it is a fascist death cult. And then now there are all these conservatives who are going oh no, how did this happen? This is terrible. What can we do? But in reality, they brought this on themselves, from Nixon and onward. There will have to be a big reckoning when the trumpists finally snap out of it, and I can't see how the party can survive it. Maybe instead the Democratic Party will split in two, with some following Manchin into a rightwing fossil fuel fanatic thing, and the rest moving further left. (A girl can dream).
There will always be the Christian-fascist element of the electorate, we all have those, but they can't uphold a national party.
posted by mumimor at 8:49 AM on August 17, 2023 [14 favorites]

wishful thinking and/or impossible to apply

It's not impossible to apply, were the Supreme Court decide to interpret it that way now. That's also what makes it wishful thinking.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:02 AM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

NPR: A Texas woman is charged with threatening the judge overseeing Trump's Jan. 6 trial

She also "made a direct threat to kill" to kill congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, a Texas Democrat, as well all Washington Democrats, broadly, and all members of the LGBTQ community, according to the Department of Homeland Security special agent who signed the court filing.

That agent said Shry admitted to making the call when questioned, but said she had no plans to travel to Washington, D.C., or to Lee's office in Houston to carry out the threats.

Shry faces one count of "communication containing a threat to injure the person of another" and was detained on Wednesday at the order of a U.S. magistrate judge.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:09 AM on August 17, 2023 [13 favorites]

Oh yeah, looks like DOJ is really not going to take any more of this from anyone. I'm glad they're finally taking actions that will help quash more nutjobbery in the future.
posted by hippybear at 9:22 AM on August 17, 2023 [11 favorites]

but said she had no plans to travel to Washington, D.C., or to Lee's office in Houston to carry out the threats.

OK but this article is leaving out a classic "don't talk to cops" moment, because the agent also said that she followed up the lack of travel plans by saying "if {Lee} comes to Alvin, then we need to worry".

bottom of page 3 in the PDF filing
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:23 AM on August 17, 2023 [16 favorites]

I thought the whole 'originalist' mission of the Federalist Society was to effectively weaken or outright ignore any amendments after the twelfth (ratified in 1804) since none of these were ratified during the lifetimes of the original framers of the constitution, thus could not be assumed to have consented to them (the 27th gets a pass since it was originally passed by Congress in 1789 but not ratified by the requisite number of states until 1992). And of course any inconvenient contradictions could be handwaved away by a compliant supreme court (now dominated by Federalist Society-friendy members, imagine that). So while two Federalist Society members can take this particular view of the implications of the 14th, I imagine that if push came to shove, ten or fifty times as many of their colleagues would step forward to argue the exact opposite, or even further to rail against the very legitimacy of the amendment (conceivably because it would violate Trump & Co.'s 1st-amendment rights to free speech and free assembly, 'incitement' being approximately on par with boys-will-be-boys 'locker-room talk' or something).
posted by hangashore at 9:30 AM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

My only assumption here would be they’ve half an eye on anyone who has so much as whispered the words “Black Lives Matter”.
posted by Artw at 9:35 AM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

As far as people flipping is concerned keep in mind that according to various legal podcasts I’ve listened to because this is a RICO case, an attorney is not allowed to take other clients for the duration of the trial. This means that an attorney is only going to take you on as a client if you have a lot of money or are going to be really high profile. For many of these unknown people neither of those things are going to be on the table. Many are going to plea out.
posted by misterpatrick at 9:37 AM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

And someone has had a word with Judge Cannon, it appears, as she has completely backpedaled on her 8/25 hearing. Of course, it's being outed that she is manifestly unfit to serve as a judge.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:42 AM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]

So an actual originalist would have to believe the original constitution can be amended. Which would make the whole concept of originalism a paradox.

They just love to smell their own farts.
posted by adept256 at 9:51 AM on August 17, 2023 [12 favorites]

I think the importance of this legal paper being published by Federalist Society members is that the call is coming from inside the house on this one. It's been stated repeatedly by a lot of people that the 14th Amendment disallows anyone involved with insurrection from running for President, but this is the first time this is being formally stated by this very conservative group.

If it can gain traction, coming from that side of the field, it's going to possibly move the Republican party to begin to consider that they can't have him as a candidate. I think everyone agrees, that would be a good outcome.
posted by hippybear at 9:56 AM on August 17, 2023 [11 favorites]

“I wanted to show you this proof, but my lawyers won’t let me! so unfair!”

Yep, the well's already poisoned. All the FOX News / NewsMax / OANN echo chamber will remember is that this report exists, and it's totally exculpatory. For the people who even care about needing a reason to defend Trump's criming, that is.
posted by Rykey at 10:03 AM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

Also, CTRL+F says this hasn't been mentioned here yet: in more FAFO news, Trump is telling people Fani Willis had an affair with the leader of a criminal gang.
posted by Rykey at 10:09 AM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]

Ken "Popehat" White: Overt Acts and Predicate Acts, Explained

In my view, the Georgia RICO indictment is gratuitous, self-indulgent, and careless of the appearance of legitimacy. Yes, under current law protected speech acts can be overt acts. But that doesn’t mean a prosecutor should gratuitously include such acts. There are so many arguable crimes that serve as both overt acts and racketeering acts, and so many communications that expressly incorporate fraud and deceit, that it would have been easy to draft an indictment to leave out tweets and speeches and the like. Putting them in seems like leaning into the pro-Trump talking points and accepting accusations of overt political bias.

He then contrasts the GA and Federal indictments.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:20 AM on August 17, 2023

From the Holy Hell, Trump Did Use Twitter Direct Messages, There Were ‘Many’ of Them, and the Special Counsel Now Has Them article that ChurchHatesTucker linked to above:

Among the data the search warrant commanded Twitter to produce: (...) All records of searches from October 2020 to January 2021. (...)

Part of me can't help but imagine this will be:

10/01/2020 12:00:00 AM: Donald Trump
10/01/2020 12:00:08 AM: Donald Trump
10/01/2020 12:00:13 AM: Donald Trump
10/01/2020 12:00:21 AM: Donald Trump
(...)
01/31/2021 11:59:46 PM: Donald Trump
01/31/2021 11:59:53 PM: Donald Trump
01/31/2021 11:59:55 PM: Donald Trump
01/31/2021 11:59:59 PM: Donald Trump

posted by Flunkie at 10:25 AM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]

seems like leaning into the pro-Trump talking points and accepting accusations of overt political bias.

There's no universe in which anybody who ever attempts to hold Trump accountable for anything will ever not be accused of overt political bias, though.

I for one would find a lot of joy in being able to say directly to Trump's face, "I guess that makes me the absolutely, unquestionably politically-motivated motherfucker who put you away."
posted by Rykey at 10:28 AM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]

Hmm. Counter argument to Popehat would be that doing crimes in Tweets and speeches and other overt forms and expecting people to just ignore them as crimes has been how Trump has been evading justice so long.
posted by Artw at 10:29 AM on August 17, 2023 [25 favorites]

As far as people flipping is concerned keep in mind that according to various legal podcasts I’ve listened to because this is a RICO case, an attorney is not allowed to take other clients for the duration of the trial.

This is presumably a conflicts analysis; it's an ethical problem. Where "can't" may actually be a strong form of "shouldn't."

This is not a typical situation, and Trump is no longer represented by typical lawyers. The more resourced and sane indictees will try to distinguish themselves by obtaining establishment counsel (like McGuire Woods). But not everyone charged will be able to do that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:29 AM on August 17, 2023

From Rykey's link upthread, how Trump is telling people Fani Willis had an affair with the leader of a criminal gang:

“They say there’s a young woman, a young racist in Atlanta. She’s a racist. And they say, I guess they say that she was after a certain gang and she ended up having an affair with the head of the gang or a gang member,” Trump said in his remarks. “And this is the person that wants to indict me. She’s got a lot of problems.”

The [Jan. 25 Rolling Stone] article is about Willis’ ongoing prosecution of the rapper Young Thug — whose real name is Jeffery Williams — and other individuals in a RICO case that argues the YSL record label that he co-founded is also a criminal street gang. The story also features quotes from Fremondo Crenshaw, better known as YSL Mondo, another co-founder of the group, who was not among those charged in last year’s 88-page grand jury indictment.

As we said, however, Rolling Stone did not report that Willis had a relationship with Young Thug or anyone she is prosecuting for gang-related crimes. The article only mentions Willis’ prior attorney-client relationship with YSL Mondo, whom she represented in an aggravated assault case in 2019, when she had her own private law practice.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:33 AM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

Yes, under current law protected speech acts can be overt acts. But that doesn’t mean a prosecutor should gratuitously include such acts.

Or perhaps it's time we acknowledge that speech can cause harm, and what that means.

Counter argument to Popehat would be that doing crimes in Tweets and speeches and other overt forms and expecting people to just ignore them as crimes has been how Trump has been evading justice so long.

Again, White's very much an openly "hate speech is the price of free speech" sort, the logic of which is no longer holding up.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:36 AM on August 17, 2023 [12 favorites]

The original framers of the Constitution wrote Article V of the Constitution, which lays out the rules for amendments.

Yeah I get that, the framers get huge credit for being foresighted enough to anticipate that the republic would evolve in ways that they didn't (or couldn't!) conceive (though it still amazes me that they missed including something as howlingly obvious as stating who exactly succeeds the president in case of death, resignation or impeachment, or even what happens when you have to replace a vice-president). But the FedSoc insists that the framers' opinions concerning said amendments (which seem to neatly match their own convictions) would have to be somehow divined and strictly obeyed, which is a pretty tall ask given that even the daisies the framers pushed up have themselves been pushing up daisies for two centuries.

If it can gain traction, coming from that side of the field, it's going to possibly move the Republican party to begin to consider that they can't have him as a candidate.

I dunno man, I'm 61 and in my lifetime I've watched the Republicans go through the notably evil leadership of Nixon, Reagan, Bush Jr., and Trump, with sprinklings of Agnew, Helms, Gingrich, Cheney, McConnell, Palin, Cruz, DeSantis and a huge number of other such miscreants along the way. I think we're in Charlie-Brown-Lucy-football territory here as far as expecting mythical Decent Sensible Reasonable Republicans to somehow emerge to right the party's course.
posted by hangashore at 10:37 AM on August 17, 2023 [34 favorites]

"Originalism" from the likes of the Federalist Society has never meant anything more than "The Founding Fathers agree with whatever I happen to hear coming out of my mouth."
posted by Flunkie at 10:48 AM on August 17, 2023 [38 favorites]

And someone has had a word with Judge Cannon, it appears, as she has completely backpedaled on her 8/25 hearing. Of course, it's being outed that she is manifestly unfit to serve as a judge.

Wait, what? So she's delaying the court date indefinitely?
posted by Mchelly at 10:59 AM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

My first counter-argument to PopeHat is that leaving out or keeping in tweets, etc. will affect the perception of this indictment not one whit. He seems to be imagining a group of people both frothing at the mouth to rebut the indictment but also soberly reading through the individual counts to make reasoned 1st amendment arguments about them. There are a few of those people out there, sure, but not even FOXNews and OANN want them, because what they're spewing has no place for the kind of nuance PopeHat is talking about here.

My second counter-argument to PopeHat is that including the Tweets, etc. allows for a broader fact pattern, which is important when developing a RICO case and giving context to how the "Enterprise" operated. If the tweets are at issue, it's a lot harder to keep them out of evidence, in short.

I find the value there to far outweigh any risks of perception of over-reach (which are inevitable here anyway - Trump's supporters were going to call literally any version of the charging document an over-reach), especially ones based on hair-splitting academic legal philosophy. But that's just me. (Disclaimer: I don't 100% agree with PopeHat on his legal philosophy, but I do respect him and think he's done a lot of good in the world in terms of explaining things to legal laypersons.)
posted by Navelgazer at 10:59 AM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

Well, I mean, of course Popehat would object to it being RICO even if it actually is RICO. That's kind of his thing.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:43 AM on August 17, 2023

CNN: It was not clear from [Judge Cannon's] latest order whether she intended to publicly announce at a later date when and where the sealed hearing would be.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:43 AM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

I dunno man, I'm 61 and in my lifetime I've watched the Republicans go through the notably evil leadership of Nixon, Reagan, Bush Jr., and Trump, with sprinklings of Agnew, Helms, Gingrich, Cheney, McConnell, Palin, Cruz, DeSantis and a huge number of other such miscreants along the way. I think we're in Charlie-Brown-Lucy-football territory here as far as expecting mythical Decent Sensible Reasonable Republicans to somehow emerge to right the party's course.

There are plenty of Congressional Republicans who are, in a word, tired of Trump and his Trumpoids' shit. They view Freedom Kook-us theatrics and accusing Dr. Fauci of being a genocidal madman and debt ceiling brinksmanship and the inability to pass legislation of any kind and Herschel Walkers and Tommy Tubervilles being propped up as actual candidates as negatives, not positives.

In a word, they are waiting patiently for Trump to stroke out.

There are plenty of others in the Authoritarian wing of the Republican Party who preceded Trump, setting the table for his rise to the Presidency, and/or who are eager to follow in his footsteps. The problem is, as I am fond of saying, is that those who are crazy enough to resort to full-on terrorism (political or otherwise) are rarely stable enough to pull it off. Trump made the cult of conservatism revolve around him, personally, and few others have his weird brand of charisma and utter shamelessness with which to pull that off. Look at DeSantis as an example, who tried to be Trump, But Electable and crumbled like rotten drywall the instant that Trump started mocking him.

So there are people who are waiting to harness that energy once Trump croaks and attempt to redirect it back into a more fiscal Republicanism, shifting focus from racial and cultural hysteria back to what Republicans do best -- eliminating every possible obstacle for more and more of America's wealth being funneled into the bank accounts of fewer and fewer people. Replacing Chaotic Evil with traditional Lawful Evil, if you will.

But as long as the current wave of My Life For You devotees of Trump exist, as long as the freaks keep shotgunning the feet of their own party, they're well aware that bucking that wave is an excellent way to find themselves unemployed and replaced by yet another bunch of nutters.

And so, we ride on into the abyss.
posted by delfin at 11:49 AM on August 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

You know....Iris Gambol's comment upthread is making me wonder about something.

So, usually, the current pattern for when Trump says something stupid is:

* Trump makes an outrageous claim about someone.
* The person about whom he makes that claim then goes into an in-depth defense where they clarify or explain what they said or posts lengthy statements in their own defense.
* Trump's followers ignore all of that.

....It strikes me that a much, much more effective move would be:

* Trump makes an outrageous claim about someone.
* The claimant simply says "Prove it."

Make TRUMP be the one to do the elaborate scrambling.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:00 PM on August 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

* Trump makes an outrageous claim about someone.
* The claimant simply says "Prove it."

Trumpians produce a video of your granny handing you a mint. QED.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:04 PM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]

Make TRUMP be the one to do the elaborate scrambling.

It doesn't work because of two core strategies: Never Play Defense and Control the Conversation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:08 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]

There are so many arguable crimes that serve as both overt acts and racketeering acts, and so many communications that expressly incorporate fraud and deceit, that it would have been easy to draft an indictment to leave out tweets and speeches and the like.

Having read the indictment, very few of the communications that expressly incorporate fraud and deceit involve Trump directly. His major contribution to the conspiracy was to push it publicly every chance he got, including the repeated falsehoods in his tweets and speeches. They are very salient to the case.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:24 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

Again, White's very much an openly "hate speech is the price of free speech" sort, the logic of which is no longer holding up

That logic has never actually held up; there's a reason why US-style free speech absolutism is not found elsewhere in the world (in pretty much every non-US country, loud calls to "kill all the Belgians" would be prosecuted as hate speech).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [11 favorites]

The problem with demanding actual facts from Trumpoids is that they have already decided that all of your sources of facts are invalid, wrong, lying, and controlled by Sinister Conspiracies, Satanists, aliens, secret vampires and/or The Dread Antifa, and their sources of facts are 140% accurate and true despite having originated from child-porn-friendly message boards and podcasters who spin stories about JFK Jr. exposing Jewish space laser platforms fueled by adrenochrome.

And that's why you put the onus on THEM to produce sources of facts, and then you nitpick THEIR sources' veracity.

I'm serious. It goes something like this -

"Hunter Biden bit the head off a live weasel!"
"Prove it."
"It's in this blog post by Sid Jablonski!"
"Pfft. Sid's just making it up. Try again."
"But....but it's also in the OANN!"
"OANN is fake news. Try again."
"What are you talking about, OANN isn't fake news!"
"Prove they aren't."
"They....they had an expose about [insert crackpot thing here]."
"[Crackpot thing] is fake news too."
"....Hang on, lemme prove [crackpot thing] so we can get back to Hunter Biden...."

You know? Instead of US being the ones to get distracted by them moving the goalposts, turn that back around on them so THEY get distracted.

...Or, as I've more often found to be the case, they block you.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [13 favorites]

^ I'm not entirely proud of it but I've repeated back someone's own words of "that's just the media" and that sure put a stop to more than one wild claim when they had nothing else to go off of.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 12:59 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

The phrase "tilting at windmills" comes to mind, alas. As does Sartre's rumination on anti-Semites, and how they gain a degree of victory merely from your treating their arguments as sufficiently serious to be worthy of rebuttal.
posted by delfin at 1:02 PM on August 17, 2023 [27 favorites]

the problem is that in my experience it really goes..

"Hunter Biden bit the head off a live weasel!"
"Prove it."
"FOX told me"
"FOX lied" or "FOX never actually said that"
"FOX told me and they never lie"
Repeat till you get tired of talking to a stone wall.

Not that I disagree with the general idea of "those with bizzare claims have the burdon of proof" ... it's just so tiring.
posted by cirhosis at 1:03 PM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]

I was about to cite Satre's essay about the anti-Semites. Conservatism at the national level hasn't been arguing in good faith since at least Nixon. Newt Gingrich wrote an infamous memo on Republicans using loaded speech every time they spoke publicly, and we hear the echoes of it with every repetition of "job-killing regulations" that our national stenographic media conveys unchallenged to the publis.

When the facts disprove one's argument -- low taxes pay for themselves, fossil fuel doesn't cause climate change, gun control doesn't work, whatever -- one can either change one's argument or pretend the facts don't exist. And since someone else is bankrolling those positions, the Republicans have created an entire media ecosystem to protect their constituents from inconvenient facts. But once one does so, there's no end, as the so called "Never Trumpers" are finding out.
posted by Gelatin at 1:11 PM on August 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

Yeah, they demonstrably don't believe in "fact" as a concept, so they don't consider themselves under any burden to prove anything. Merely positing something brings it into existence for them, never to be dispelled. Any since the mainstream media considers their job to be reporting on beliefs rather than on facts, merely positing a lie is too often given the same reporting as evidence-based reality.
posted by rikschell at 1:11 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

excerpt from Sartre's 1946 essay "Anti-Semite and Jew" (referenced above by delfin):

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves,
for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert.
If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
posted by The_Auditor at 1:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [29 favorites]

"FOX told me"
"FOX lied" or "FOX never actually said that"

Refutable thus:

"FOX told me!"
"What's THEIR proof?"

"FOX lied!"
"No shit, they lie about everything. "

"FOX never said that!"
"Prove it."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:31 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

EmpressCallipygos:
"Hunter Biden bit the head off a live weasel!"
"Prove it."
"It's in this blog post by Sid Jablonski!"
"Pfft. Sid's just making it up. Try again."

This is a failure of the "control the narrative" point that NoxaAternum was making upthread. You're reacting to them. Engaging with their bullshit like this is A) taking it seriously enough to bother refuting it, and B) letting them "run down the clock" on you.
posted by adamrice at 1:33 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

I'll note that this kind of endless back and forth doesn't work in a courtroom, where facts matter and proving them is the whole point. Good news! That's where we're headed.
posted by adept256 at 1:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [11 favorites]

And they will turn it around on you just as easily.

"CNN and MSNBC and CBS and ABC and the BBC and NPR and every accredited news agency on the planet all disagree with what you're saying. They've documented the veracity of what they've reported hundreds of times."

"Yeah, well, they're all wrong and lying and part of the Cabal. Their 'proof' comes solely from discredited mainstream sources. If they were telling the truth, they'd agree with what OANN and Newsmax and Stew Peters are saying."

It's kind of like trying to argue the existence/non-existence of God with a group of nuns. They will not take your argument seriously because their entire worldview revolves around (what are to them) basic truths that are unshakable. The difference is that the nuns would be infinitely more polite and well-intentioned and more likely to invite you over for tea afterwards.
posted by delfin at 1:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [13 favorites]

There are people who already engage with them by fact checking and disputing their claims and offering evidence, and this is tiring because they simply bark "fake news" in response.

I am simply suggesting doing the same instead, first, and putting them on the defensive.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:44 PM on August 17, 2023

EmpressCallipygos... I get what you are staying I really do... But I'm just saying that in my experience you can't argue against "Fox said it" because for many of these people that's all they need... that's their proof...

It feels like there should be a way to reach anyone... but....
posted by cirhosis at 1:45 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

derail
posted by glonous keming at 1:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [24 favorites]

And since someone else is bankrolling those positions, the Republicans have created an entire media ecosystem to protect their constituents from inconvenient facts.

While there's certainly "pro-business" money that backs the conservative movement, I think most of these people are True Believers. They honestly believe that the other side is trying to destroy America, and they must stop at nothing (lying, cheating, electing Donald Trump) to save our White Christian Nation. It kind of scares me.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:56 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'll note that this kind of endless back and forth doesn't work in a courtroom, where facts matter and proving them is the whole point. Good news! That's where we're headed.

Which is why courtrooms were where all of Team Trump's arguments about a stolen election went to die. There are consequences to lying to a court, as some of Trump's lawyers were already finding out thru disbarment and censure even before the criminal charges.
posted by Gelatin at 1:59 PM on August 17, 2023 [15 favorites]

Metafilter: endless back and forth doesn't work.
posted by SPrintF at 2:10 PM on August 17, 2023 [18 favorites]

While there's certainly "pro-business" money that backs the conservative movement, I think most of these people are True Believers

Feels like there’s way more off-the-deep-end fascist billionaires running around funding insane candidates these days too, undermining the whole imagined sober pro-business pro-shareholder wing of the Republican Party.
posted by Artw at 2:19 PM on August 17, 2023 [11 favorites]

Metafilter: endless back and forth doesn't work.

Well there's a lesson unwell learned hereabouts.
posted by y2karl at 2:30 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

It feels like there should be a way to reach anyone...

There are people who aren't worth the trouble to reach. For example, I don't want to be in a room with those who don't think Donald Trump's extensive record as a rapist and sexual predator is a showstopper, so talking them around from living in MAGAland isn't a script I can read from honestly and in good-faith.
posted by mikelieman at 2:33 PM on August 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

hangashore I believe you're misunderstanding what the FedSoc means by "Originalism". Or, rather, what they pretend to mean.

They do not claim that the Constitution cannot be modified past the lives of the founders.

They claim to believe that all Constitutional questions must be resolved by considering what the Constitutuion and/or its amendments would have meant to the people at the time it was written or amended.

So for example when contemplating the 14th Amendment they claim they think we must evaluate it as meaning whatever the people in 1868 thought it meant.

When evaluating the first 10 Amendments they must be evaluated by what people in 1791 thought. What people in 1792 thought is forbidden. That instant the amendment was passed is frozen in time eternally and it can never mean anything but exactly what the people of that time thought it meant.

Which is, of course, completely fucking impossible because "the people" were a wildly diverse group who didn't have a really focused single concept for "the meaning" of the 14th that we can tap into via seance or whatever.

It should be mentioned this is what they CLAIM to believe, but it is pure bullshit. No one believes that.

In reality all that originalist crap is just excuses for whatever outcome they want. Do they want to ban abortion? Then the fondest desire of the Founders was a nation where abortionw as criminal. Do they want to allow everyone to carry fully automatic grenade launchers? Then despite such things not existing in 1790 they will claim that the original meaning the Founders had for the 2nd included fully automatic grenade launchers. Etc.

But they don't claim, ever, that anything in the Constitution after 1809 is invalid. Rather they claim that the non-amendment parts must be evaluated through the lens of what the rich, white, landowning, aristocratic, people who wrote the Constitution intended, and that each amendment must be evaluated strictly on the basis of what people in the year it was passed would have thought or believed.
posted by sotonohito at 2:33 PM on August 17, 2023 [15 favorites]

At n the DeSanti’s campaigns attempts to reach people:
Across several months, the source familiar with the campaign said that it consistently struggled to find a message critical of Trump that resonated with rank-and-file Republican voters. Even attaching Trump’s name to an otherwise effective message had a tendency to invert the results, this source said. If a moderator said that the covid lockdowns destroyed small businesses and facilitated the largest upward wealth transfer in modern American history, seventy per cent of the Republicans surveyed would agree. But, if the moderator said that Trump’s covid lockdowns destroyed small businesses and facilitated the largest upward wealth transfer in modern American history, the source said, seventy per cent would disagree.
posted by Artw at 2:41 PM on August 17, 2023 [21 favorites]

Which is why courtrooms were where all of Team Trump's arguments about a stolen election went to die.

Speaking of which I'm hoping this little tidbit gets more play than it has so far.

“[.].. on December 8, the Senior Campaign Advisor wrote in an email, "When our research and campaign legal team can't back up any of the claims made by our Elite Strike Force Legal Team, you can see why we're 0-32 on our cases. I'll obviously hustle to help on all fronts, but it's tough to own any of this when it's all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mothership."”

posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:19 PM on August 17, 2023 [21 favorites]

They claim to believe that all Constitutional questions must be resolved by considering what the Constitutuion and/or its amendments would have meant to the people at the time it was written or amended.

Based on what, though? The Constitution doesn't say that.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:05 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

The identities behind the 30 unindicted co-conspirators in Trump’s Georgia case

CNN was able to identify some of the co-conspirators by piecing together details included in the indictment. Documents reviewed from previous reporting also provide clues, especially the reams of emails and testimony from the House January 6 Committee’s report released late last year.

CNN has been able to identify or narrow down nearly all of the unindicted co-conspirators.

posted by kirkaracha at 4:07 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

When evaluating the first 10 Amendments they must be evaluated by what people in 1791 thought. What people in 1792 thought is forbidden. That instant the amendment was passed is frozen in time eternally and it can never mean anything but exactly what the people of that time thought it meant.

This is, in actuality and unsurprisingly, outcome driven sophistry. As seen in most of Scalia's jurisprudence (such as on search and seizure), or more recently the empty ideological vessel of 'history and tradition' (from whenever convenient) in Bruen. [SCOTUSblog]

Based on what, though? The Constitution doesn't say that.

No, the judiciary does. Isn't it ironic? (Yes, I really do think.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

Originalism & the Utah Supreme Court, a little over a week ago: attorneys defending an abortion ban asked the five justices to focus on the intentions of the delegates who drafted the state constitution. Judge Petersen noted not all Utahns were included at that 1895 convention; women attended as audience members, not delegates. (Of the five justices, three are women.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]

It's like rai-i-ain, when the secret 7-and-a-half-th Amendment cancels your wedding day because no dogs can play baseball.
posted by riverlife at 5:04 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

There are two ways for Republicans to throw a wrench into this. The first would be for the governor to use some newly granted DeSantis/Florida like powers to have the elected prosecutor removed from office. This has to go through a board though so it’s not straightforward. The second is for the State Attorney General to take over the case.

This was a comment way up above, but the question of how this case could be derailed by Kemp et al. has come up a few times. Who knows what will happen going forward, but the NYT has a pretty funny article about the various ways Georgia officials are currently saying "hell no" to these kinds of proposals. Quoting more extensively since this is paywalled for some people:

There are not only procedural hurdles standing in the way but the political reality in Georgia. Mr. Kemp, who would have to call a special session, has signaled he has no interest in doing so. He and Mr. Trump parted ways in 2020 after he refuted Mr. Trump’s claims of election fraud in the state; this week, he once again pushed back on such claims.

And while Republicans control the legislature, they do not appear to have the votes needed to achieve what Mr. Trump’s supporters are seeking. For one thing, they lack a two-thirds majority in the State Senate. ...

Separately, some Trump supporters have pushed for changes in how pardons are given in the state. In Georgia, the power to pardon rests with a state board appointed by the governor, not with the governor himself. A pardon is a possibility only for an individual who has completed the sentence and “lived a law-abiding life” for five years before applying.

Changing the law would require amending the state Constitution, which would require the approval of two-thirds of the Legislature.

Cody Hall, a senior adviser to the governor, strongly suggested to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Thursday that Mr. Kemp was opposed to challenging the Trump prosecution.

“Where have I heard special session, changing decades-old law and overturning constitutional precedent before?” Mr. Hall asked, referring to unsuccessful calls from Mr. Trump and others for a special session to overturn President Biden’s win in the state. “Oh right, prior to Republicans losing two Senate runoffs in January of 2021.” ...

“What are people hoping to learn in the second kick of the election-losing mule?” Mr. Hall added.

Asked on Thursday about the new call for a special session, a spokesman for Mr. Kemp referred a reporter to Mr. Hall’s comments to the Journal-Constitution.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:22 PM on August 17, 2023 [10 favorites]

I bet Air Bud can. A lot of professional athletes are former high school or college stars in sports besides the one they're most associated with.
posted by Flunkie at 5:48 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

Trump cancels his press conference..
posted by interogative mood at 7:29 PM on August 17, 2023 [14 favorites]

kirkaracha When you strip out the right wing BS it's actually an interesting question. What does a document actually MEAN?

If we're talking about what Beowulf means, or Tolkien means, or Shakespeare means, the outcome of such a debate is interesting but not going to really change a lot of people's lives, but when dealing with something like the US Constitution the question has the potential to change a lot of lives.

When the 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no law [...] abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press" what does it actually, in a legally binding sense, mean? Are laws against libel and slander unconstitutional? Laws against obscenity? Laws against hate speech? Laws against child pornography?

You can try to take a pure textual approach and say it means exactly what the text says and argue that the answer to all of the questions above is "yes, all those things must be permitted". But you'll notice that's never really been an answer that's satisfactory to most people. And it falls apart when the Constitution gets vague as it often does so the idea of 'exactly what the text says' is problematic.

When the 14th Amendment says "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws" does that mean laws prohibiting interracial marriages are unconstitutional?

You can make a good argument for yes, but until Loving that argument was rejected.

So... WTF does the Constitution actually mean?

And now we're into hermeneutics. A hermeneutic is the lens through which you evaluate and interpret a text. Everyone uses them but most people don't tend to give the matter much thought.

Given one hermeneutic you can make a very good argument that the 14th permits not merely interracial marriage but also LGBT+ marriage, and all the varieties of poly marriage. That same approach will also lead you to the conclusion that the 14th means women can vote.

You'll note that in actual history, the 14th was not interpreted to end laws prohibiting interracial marriage, nor to grant women the right to vote. The Justices at that time looked at the matter through a different lens and reached a different conclusion. But in Loving the Justices ruled that the 14th did permit interracial marriage and you can take that to mean they argued that everyone until then had gotten it wrong and misunderstood it. Including the people who actually wrote it.

And, to a certain type of mind, this way lies madness.

The argument goes that if the meaning of the Constitution changes over time and depends on the lens through which a judge views the document then then it's hardly a binding document now is it? How can you trust something that changes like that all the time through an opaque process that's up to the individual whim of a bunch of twerps in weird costumes?

Especially when in theory its supposed to be difficult to change and when in theory there's supposed to be a process for amending it and making changes explicit rather than relying on a judge looking at it differently and coming to new, formerly rejected conclusions. Now you've got a nation based on a foundation of sand and nothing can ever be legally certain!

If you want to permit same sex marriage then pass a damn law you hippie! That's why we have a legislature!

And, to be honest, that's not an entirely wrong conclusion. I don't actually agree, but I can't say it's entirely invalid either.

Which is where the theoretical logic of originalism comes in. If we don't want to base our interpretation of the Constitution on random hermeneutics which can lead judges to radically different conclusions we should have a single, simple, agreed upon, hermeneutic and judges should stick to it.

And the one they picked is the one that guarantees the fewest rights, and results in among the most restrictive readings of the Constitution even before you get to the part where they ignore it to come up with whatever outcome they want.

What it means is what the people who wrote it thought it meant! Now all we have to do is... figure out WTF they thought it meant. And despite my jokes about seances they claim they do that by looking at various contemporaneous documents, court decisions, and so on.

Part of the problem is that this approach leads instantly to the question "wait a sec, WHICH people do you mean?" Because I'm pretty damn sure the Black people in 1791 probably had some opinions on the Bill of Rights that aren't going to be the same as the opinions Scalia et al (falsely) claim to be trying to uphold. This theoretically plain and simple hermeneutic is, before we get into any deeper problems, a huge mess simply because it starts by defining "people" in a way that omits most people.

Now in reality "originalism" is nothing like what it claims to be and all that is just yammer that is unrelated to what actually goes on which is Scalia et al decide what outcome they want then find a way to claim that's the "originalist" position. But while I wholly reject their BS, the question that leads to it really is interesting. WTF does the Constitution actually mean and how do you know?

Their answer is both a pathetic lie and it also sucks.

But what should our answer be?
posted by sotonohito at 8:02 PM on August 17, 2023 [32 favorites]

Originalism is intrinsically white male supremacy. Thank you sotonohito and Iris Gambol. I had seen that the effect of originalist arguments always pointed that way, but I never thought about how explicitly originalists exclude anyone else from interpreting the constitution.
posted by Emmy Noether at 8:20 PM on August 17, 2023 [15 favorites]

“What are people hoping to learn in the second kick of the election-losing mule?” Mr. Hall added.

Hah.
posted by Literaryhero at 8:37 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

Trump cancels his press conference..

Someone's lawyers are earning that money they will never be paid.
posted by y2karl at 8:56 PM on August 17, 2023 [24 favorites]

Trump cancels his press conference.
From the article:

Trump said on Thursday he had canceled a press conference scheduled for next week to release a report into the 2020 election in Georgia, saying his attorneys would put his arguments in court filings instead.

As has previously been noted, it's highly unlikely his attorneys are going to do any such thing when they know every word of it is completely made up (including the ones that wrote it). This 'announcement' is nothing more than a face-saving exercise, unless Trump has finally decided to start listening to his lawyers and keeping his stupid mouth shut, but that hardly seems likely.
posted by dg at 9:07 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]

Who needs an airtight defence when you can float the idea that one really truly exists I promise
posted by mazola at 9:19 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

Oh hey, is it Airtight Defense Week already?
posted by Pronoiac at 9:37 PM on August 17, 2023 [11 favorites]

This 'announcement' is nothing more than a face-saving exercise

Nothing so pedestrian, I think. The report now exists and is being kept under wraps for legal reasons. With a report like that out there the indictments are just a silly sideshow that need not be considered when choosing your Republican candidate.

This is pretty standard Trump stuff. Big claims that people will remember, no followup necessary.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:40 PM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]

I’m pretty confident that Trump made up the report and put it on Truth Social without taking to anyone. He just assumed he’d get someone to write the report for him in a week and it would totally throw a wrench in the prosecution’s case and rally his followers. Then his lawyers explained how the prosecutors are going to drag everyone involved in the report in ad a witness, establish how it was thrown together and that would demolish his defense. So they canceled the report and are going to do it as legal filings as a way to claim the process of putting the report together is attorney-client privileged work product to keep the prosecutor away from the evidence. That probably won’t work; but it is their only hope.
posted by interogative mood at 9:59 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]

Whenever Trump seizes the narrative or attempts to, it's for distraction and headlines-as-fishing lines.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]

Trump cancels his press conference

Fake news. No cancellation is required for what is simply "no longer necessary". In fact it never was necessary; the mere announcing of it was sufficient. The dogs have barked and the caravan has moved on.

Good photo accompanying that article though. TFG looks so sick, puffy and tired. With any luck his prison sentence will prove equally unnecessary.
posted by flabdablet at 11:28 PM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]

PublishedJanuary 23, 2013
posted by y2karl at 11:57 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]

Trump is already under a level of sustained stress few will ever experience, and this is only the start of it.

The first time those cold grey cell doors clank shut behind him, pre-trial or post-appeals, when he finally realises that he no longer controls anything about his life, and likely never again will, the stress will go stratospheric.

I will be enjoying my schadenfreude at that moment as much as anybody. But the fact that it is entirely self-inflicted and thoroughly deserved will be bittersweet and of limited satisfaction.

The profound damage left in his wake is done, and will take decades to repair, and it is not even clear yet that it can be.
posted by Pouteria at 12:13 AM on August 18, 2023 [16 favorites]

> Section Three remains an enforceable part of the Constitution, not limited to the Civil War, and not effectively repealed by nineteenth century amnesty legislation. Second, Section Three is self-executing, operating as an immediate disqualification from office, without the need for additional action by Congress. It can and should be enforced by every official, state or federal, who judges qualifications.

This is a good discussion to have. And we should have it.

But what is the realistic path to someone actually invoking Section 3? And do we really want random people across the country (whoever judges qualifications for office - whoever that is...) just randomly applying this to various candidates?

Cause I guarantee, if a Democratic officeholder or two girds up their loins and judges Trump as non-qualified, then there will be a literal firestorm of Republican officeholders playing tit-for-tat by disqualifying every Democratic candidate in sight.

This will all end up in the courts, of course. But now: What is the actual standard for judging what actually constitutes participation in insurrection or rebellion?

I would say it requires, at minimum, conviction of some crime. But then, there are all sorts of crimes and which of them constitute insurrection or rebellion?

Just for example, the Mar-a-lago case where Trump stole national secrets and slept with them in his bed, showered with them every morning, had intimate moments with them every afternoon in his office, etc etc etc is really stupid and illegal stuff but it doesn't really constitute insurrection or rebellion.

The Jan 6th cases involved fraud, conspiracy, etc etc etc etc. But where is the line - and who is going to draw it? - between ordinary fraud and conspiracy to (say) steal money from the U.S. govt vs fraud and conspiracy that actually amounts to insurrection or rebellion?

This is all going to end up in the courts (if it ever gets anywhere at all) and then everything is going to be very vague and subjective.

In Civil War terms, it was obvious who participated in insurrection and rebellion: People who fought in the Confederate Army or held office in the Confederate government.

Now, however, there is not such a bright-line test.

My sense is, if this is really to be enforced it needs enabling legislation passed by Congress. This would spell out a bunch more precise criteria and procedures for disqualification of a candidate, how notice would be given of a disqualified candidate, how the candidate could appeal, etc etc etc.

This is very common, where the Constitution spells something out in general terms in a few sentences, Congress (or say a state legislature in case of a state constitution) spells it out much more specifically in a statute, and then various more detailed regulations and procedures are worked out on the basis of that law.

We have the few vague sentences but we don't have any of the rest of the details and apparatus in place to make this a really operative piece of law. No one even knows how to get started with it.
posted by flug at 1:33 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

From the Popehat article, can't resist bringing everyone's attention to this bit of idoicy:

Regarding the Georgia indictment, Natalie Winters mopes (on some social media outlet that shall remain nameless), "It's now illegal to call Mike Pence a wimp".

No, Natalie, what is illegal is calling up the Vice President of the United States and putting pressure of all sorts on him to contravene his Constitutional and legal duty to take part in the recording of election results in order to overturn the results of said election.

If calling him a "wimp" is part of that pressure campaign, then I guess yeah, it is among the most illegal things a person can do.

But it's not calling him a wimp per se that is illegal. It is what you are trying to accomplish by calling him a wimp and whatever else you are saying to him and doing to him.

In this case, what Trump was trying to accomplish was nothing less than overthrowing the U.S. government.

And yes, Natalie, that is indeed 100% illegal.

That is a thing that should not really require clarification, but here we are.
posted by flug at 1:48 AM on August 18, 2023 [24 favorites]

Wokeism gone mad. Next thing you know they'll be making it illegal to stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody.
posted by flabdablet at 3:06 AM on August 18, 2023 [31 favorites]

“Oh, so now it’s illegal to…” is the most patently astroturfed, focus-grouped, committee-approved talking point of this whole thing. Fascists are lining up to make the most laughable possible reductions.
posted by Etrigan at 4:41 AM on August 18, 2023 [13 favorites]

Trump said on Thursday he had canceled a press conference scheduled for next week to release a report into the 2020 election in Georgia, saying his attorneys would put his arguments in court filings instead.

Boy oh boy, I'd hate to be a junior associate the day one of the partners storms in and screams "OK, which one of you ASSHATS forgot to mention the TOTALLY BULLETPROOF EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE at the strategy meetings for this case???"
posted by Rykey at 4:52 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

“Oh, so now it’s illegal to…” is a deflection my 15-yo has been trying out when he's done something stupid and got caught. He's currently growing out of it, though.
posted by Harald74 at 5:03 AM on August 18, 2023 [19 favorites]

Trump’s Lawyers Seek April 2026 Start to Jan. 6 Trial (NYT)

Come April 2026: We can't have a trial this close to the mid-terms! Let the voters decide! Probably.

I know this is barely relevant, and it's the daily mail, but photos don't lie.

EXCLUSIVE: Ivana Trump's cordoned-off grave is barely visible in completely overgrown area of Trump's 506-acre Bedminster New Jersey golf course

Did she even go by that name? And just the dates. So overgrown with weeds you have to be standing on her body to see it. I've heard that you don't have to pay tax on a graveyard and that's the whole reason she's there.

If only someone at the golf course knew about lawn care. You know? This could only be spite. The mother of his children. For the sake of the kids, show some fucking dignity.

Trump is scum.
posted by adept256 at 6:01 AM on August 18, 2023 [15 favorites]

That tracks.

He’d probably take better care of it if it actually did have secret documents buried in it, tbh.
posted by Artw at 6:40 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

n.b. the tl;dr: for all that follows is basically "what sotonohito said"

it probably reflects poorly on my character that although the inherent white supremacy of the originalist interpretation scheme bothers me, the thing that gets deep under my skin is its illiteracy.

text. does. not. interpret. itself.

if you pretend otherwise 1) lol you don't even know what text is, do you? 2) you are either a huckster snookering people by implicitly claiming to have privileged knowledge of the meaning of the text, i.e. "the plain text of the bible/the plain text of the constitution speaks for itself and what it says is [some weird shit that i just made up]" or else you're one of the marks getting snookered.

the originalist reading strategy is very slightly more sophisticated than the "we say it's sola scriptura but really it's sola whatever the charismatic pastor says" evangelical fundamentalist reading strategy. Instead of implicitly arguing that the person making the originalist claim has immediate privileged knowledge of how to interpret the text of the constitution, they implicitly argue that specific historical figures living at the time of the constitution's drafting had immediate privileged knowledge of the interpretation of the constitution, and that in turn the present-day person making the originalist claim has immediate privileged knowledge of how to interpret what those historical figures wrote.

this strategy 1) masks how (as in the case of evangelical readings of the bible) the person doing the reading is making shit up and then pretending it's the plain text, 2) allows for an amount of opinion-laundering. there are certain opinions held by certain originalist judges and legal scholars that are immediately repellent to most contemporary people. our originalists, being very clever, get away with espousing these generally repellent opinions in public by pretending that the opinion in question isn't theirs, exactly, but instead comes from john jay or whoever, and that they are sadly forced to defend this opinion out of deep respect for the constitution, the flag, apple pie, and john jay or whoever.

it's a fuckin' scam. they're peddling crap epistemology, and there are a whole lot of evils that are directly downstream from crap epistemology.

originalism is a glass onion. change my mind.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:27 AM on August 18, 2023 [30 favorites]

He was President Putin's Poodle for one term of four whole years and yet here we are talking about, wishing and waiting for him to please God, let him kick the bucket now already! I am afraid that though visibly and aurally he is going down so slowly, he is not so much thriving on our unwilling attention anymore as surviving on it to the bitter Yuggothian end. And then we will be dealing with his pecs now.
posted by y2karl at 8:30 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

...and forever.
posted by y2karl at 8:36 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

AHA! I knew it.
posted by Flunkie at 8:37 AM on August 18, 2023

In the Perpetuating the Big Lie department, the Minnesota Pillow Humper held one of his periodic Election Summits to "prove" election fraud and corrupt voting machines and all the other things that Dominion sued him over.

Lindell's latest brilliant idea for Saving Our Elections is called the Wireless Monitoring Device, or WMD. It is a drone (totally not purchased in bulk from some Chinese supplier) carrying software that he claims will detect whenever devices come online and access the Internet; he wants these flying over every polling place come election time, and if devices are detected accessing the Internet it will OBVIOUSLY be voting machines going online and contacting their Chinese masters.

Needless to say, before you fly MyDrone over a polling place, look up criminal trespassing laws first.
posted by delfin at 8:55 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

The first time those cold grey cell doors clank shut behind him, pre-trial or post-appeals, when he finally realises that he no longer controls anything about his life, and likely never again will, the stress will go stratospheric.

How would we know? Wouldn't he be treated like any other prisoner, at least at a basic "you are now a number not a person" level? Are prisoner's allowed to post to social media? (serious question)

I'm looking forward to him receiving the full weight of this disgusting carceral system he and his rich white cronies have built in America.
posted by archimago at 8:57 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

and now it's illegal to...

Yeah, the difference between words as speech and words as acts is real 1L stuff. Which is to say that everyone touting this line knows it's bullshit, and most of the people hearing it know it's bullshit, but it's part of the Kayfabe now and arguments about that aren't going to do much to move the needle in public opinion.

The courts, however, are very clear about this distinction, and unlikely to be amused by any such arguments, if Trump's team were to even attempt them in that venue. So maybe this talking point can try to poison the well of potential jurors, but a courtroom setting can do a lot to clarify things there.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:59 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

How would we know? Wouldn't he be treated like any other prisoner, at least at a basic "you are now a number not a person" level? Are prisoner's allowed to post to social media? (serious question)

Extremely doubtful that he'd be treated like any other prisoner. No matter what happens I don't think he's bound for gen-pop. The most dire sentence he can likely expect is a cordoned-off wing of a minimum-security prison where secret service detail can guarantee his safety. As for social media, I think that's a legitimate question, because (I believe) internet access is often permitted in prisons today (in a very limited capacity), though that would be in the realm of "privileges" and given the nature of the crimes charged here, the courts may find it compelling to deny him that.

That said, as long as Social Media Platforms will have him (i.e. as long as he's alive) he could still post via proxy by meeting with lawyers as often as possible and having them post to his account for him, I suppose. I doubt he'd be allowed a phone inside, but given who he is that might be difficult to enforce in any case (it's not like "regular" prisoners don't often get phones smuggled in anyway.)

But this is all spitballing, of course, off of the assumptions that he'll be convicted (a real possibility in this case, I think) and put away (far less certain), in a prison rather than house arrest or similar (even less certain), and doesn't just flee to Russia before all is said and done.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:10 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

When it comes to "he was just talking" my favorite Reductio ad Hitlerum is the fact that as far as anyone knows Hitler never killed anyone. He just talked.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:15 AM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]

Extremely doubtful that he'd be treated like any other prisoner. No matter what happens I don't think he's bound for gen-pop. The most dire sentence he can likely expect is a cordoned-off wing of a minimum-security prison where secret service detail can guarantee his safety.

In the very unlikely scenario where Trump is sentenced to something more rigorous than house confinement, my money would be on them setting up a very nice gated compound on a military base and putting him there. There's no scenario where I can see any chance of him being placed in a for-real federal or state prison, much as I'd love to see him get shackled in a van and sent to a supermax.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:57 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

I am reminded of the scene in "Blues Brothers" where Frank Oz, as a prison guard, enumerates the possessions that John Belushi turned over when his character was locked up. Except in this case it would be more like, "Bronzer, partially empty. Secret document, unread."
posted by wenestvedt at 10:17 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]

Presidency. One soiled.
posted by delfin at 10:21 AM on August 18, 2023 [24 favorites]

Are prisoner's allowed to post to social media? (serious question)

There's Twitter account I can't find right now which is used by a man currently in prison. He calls a number during the time he's allowed to use the phone and... leaves a message for someone to transcribe? A text-to-speech bot posts for him? I don't remember. It's not the same as full Twitter/Gab/Truth/whatever account but it's one workaround.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:31 AM on August 18, 2023

I would like to see this account because my neighbor visits a former student of his in prison — for life — and he can’t even talk about hypnotism on the phone with the prisoner. They listen to everything.
posted by terrapin at 10:47 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

I saw it just the other day but didn't bookmark any of the info. There is, perhaps unsurprisingly, a lot of noise in the search results for "twitter" and "prison"
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:54 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

Nonsteroidal, is it Andrew Tate? Someone seems to be posting to his account while he's in prison.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 10:57 AM on August 18, 2023

If ever there was a use case for AI text generation, it would be Trump's social media accounts. Only the keenest eyes could tell the difference.
posted by delfin at 10:58 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

as far as anyone knows Hitler never killed anyone. He just talked.

Same with Charles Manson.
posted by Rykey at 11:07 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

No, this account very specifically mentioned in the bio how it was being written via prison phone.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 11:10 AM on August 18, 2023

as far as anyone knows Hitler never killed anyone

Other than Hitler, of course.
posted by SPrintF at 11:47 AM on August 18, 2023 [18 favorites]

Other than Hitler, of course.

Touché!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:10 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

House arrest at Mar a Lago. A resort with 126 rooms and a golf course. And a pool. Maybe a bit uncomfortable in the summer and during hurricanes.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:13 PM on August 18, 2023

Anything that keeps him off the golf course would feel crippling to him.
posted by hippybear at 2:39 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

Legal Eagle : It's RICO in Georgia.
posted by Pendragon at 2:53 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

Ha! drones over polling places, looking for wifi activity, full of citizens carrying smart phones ....
posted by mbo at 5:40 PM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

Actual normal horrible prison cell BUT he gets a gold toilet in it
posted by jason_steakums at 6:32 PM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]

Actual normal horrible prison cell BUT he gets a gold toilet in it

Counterpoint. Club-Fed quality cell, but with one-piece steel prison toilet.
posted by mikelieman at 3:08 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]

How about this: normal horrible prison cell, one-piece steel prison toilet, golf cart taken apart to get the bits through the door and reassembled inside.
posted by flabdablet at 5:03 AM on August 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

Countercounterpoint: he gets to be the first man on Venus.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:49 AM on August 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

How about just a regular prison cell, regular toilet, the normal stuff for a convicted felon. Aside from having to keep him out of gen-pop, he's not special. He's not president anymore. He's just some asshole. Treat him the same as anyone else.
posted by mrgoat at 6:04 AM on August 19, 2023 [31 favorites]

Doesn't spend a single night in prison, but a majority of Republican primary voters decide they don't want him as their candidate, and he gradually fades into irrelevance.

(As long as we're daydreaming.)
posted by box at 6:09 AM on August 19, 2023 [7 favorites]

I bet most 19 of these indicted chuckleheads are waiting until the last minute to turn themselves in, thus guaranteeing a continuous circus come Thursday-Friday. I'd love a pointer to a one-job website that shows these folks' mugs with a big red X if they've been processed by the Fulton County Sheriff.
posted by achrise at 3:41 PM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]

> the originalist interpretation scheme bothers me

"Originalist Interpretation" does not mean "What the text originally meant when first written."

Rather it means, "What ********I******* first thought the text meant when ********I******* first read it."

That's the original in Originalist - nothing more or less: What I originally thought it meant.

The geniuses who are wedded to the Originalist gospel usually first read these things when they were about 12 or 14 or maybe 16 or 18, naive about pretty much everything and with no awareness of history beyond the usual myths and propaganda. And convinced that they were the smartest person on the face of the earth while actually being approximately as dumb as a post.

So it all checks out . . .
posted by flug at 10:39 PM on August 19, 2023 [6 favorites]

There are a few people who call themselves originalists who are mainly textualist (to the extent the meaning is clear, use that) and then use evidence of contemporary understanding and practice to fill in the gaps. When they actually do what they say, it's a reasonably defensible position. It's mostly a lot of motivated reasoning, though, best exemplified by basically everyone who calls themselves originalist or textualist having decided that the first part of the second amendment is meaningless because that would mean that the firearms free for all isn't actually mandated by the Constitution.
posted by wierdo at 12:14 AM on August 20, 2023 [9 favorites]

that would mean that the firearms free for all isn't actually mandated by the Constitution.

As well preventing them from having to interpret "firearms" as someone in that era would.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:01 AM on August 20, 2023 [10 favorites]

Here, from The Brennan Center For Justice, The Electoral College’s Racist Origins
posted by hippybear at 12:11 PM on August 16

This is a fabulous explainer, and provides a rationale for the Electoral College's weirdness that is astounding.
posted by bluesky43 at 2:39 PM on August 20, 2023 [6 favorites]

$200,000 bail... including revocation in various conditions, including making "threats" on social media.

please try finding exactly where the line is, please try finding exactly where the line is, please try finding exactly where the line is
posted by Flunkie at 3:11 PM on August 21, 2023 [5 favorites]

$200,000 bail... including revocation in various conditions, including making "threats" on social media.

That limitation, at least as reported in the NYT, seems like it might really limit him compared to his recent postings; the limitation on talking to co-defendants also seems likely to be tested:

Under the conditions of his bond agreement, Mr. Trump cannot violate state or federal laws or communicate with any co-defendants in the case except through his lawyers. He was told not to intimidate witnesses or co-defendants, or “otherwise obstruct the administration of justice,” by threatening them or 30 unindicted co-conspirators in the case.

He was also directed to “make no direct or indirect threat of any nature against the community or to any property in the community” including “posts on social media or reposts of posts made by another individual on social media,” the bond sheet states.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:48 PM on August 21, 2023 [7 favorites]

reposts of posts made by another individual

Finally a definitive answer as to whether retweets are endorsements.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:57 PM on August 21, 2023 [11 favorites]

What is the over/under on how long he will NOT do those things? I'm thinking by the weekend, or maybe even when talking to Tucker which apparently has already been taped. Might have to make some calls to Tucker's people for some last minute editing. God, that would be really funny.
posted by Windopaene at 6:18 PM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]

I think that probably depends on who is judging Trump's actions in relation to those rules. If I'm doing the judging, I'm flatly surprised that he hasn't done those things already in the past few hours since he's been banned from doing them. But if an actual judge -- or, the actual judge -- is judging, I imagine there may be possible cases wherein I would've said "JAIL TIME NOW", but in reality he would get a stern talking-to.
posted by Flunkie at 6:31 PM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]

What is the over/under on how long he will NOT do those things? I

My guess is that very soon we'll see a lot more posting nominally from his children or others in the general orbit that everyone will understand is really from him, but with a veneer of deniability.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 PM on August 21, 2023 [8 favorites]

I can't decide if I want him to be unable to come up with the 200K or to pull a Julius-Caesar-kidnapped-by-pirates and be insulted that the amount is so low.
posted by pollytropos at 6:49 PM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]

If the former is true, then the latter will be done.
posted by Flunkie at 6:52 PM on August 21, 2023 [4 favorites]

There's nothing in that report that would nullify the prosecutor's case against Trump. There likely is no report. Smoke and mirrors.

If the defense tries to pull the report out during trial, it turns into a discovery issue, and so they won't do that. And they won't do that because there likely is no report.

I don't think Trump will be able to keep himself out of jail from running his mouth over the next few months, but this report is a giant nothing burger.

I was hoping he'd hold the press conference so he'd just say something that sends him straight into violation of any of his conditions for remaining free pending trial, but he's smart enough to listen to his lawyers at least about this.
posted by hippybear at 7:10 PM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]

Well, that didn't take long.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 PM on August 21, 2023 [6 favorites]

A Perfect Phone Call.

It's like the title from a Merchant/Ivory film from 20 years in the future.
posted by hippybear at 7:12 PM on August 21, 2023 [3 favorites]

OK, I'm now saying JAIL TIME NOW. Let's see what the judge says!
posted by Flunkie at 7:12 PM on August 21, 2023 [3 favorites]

(these realtime experiments are exhilarating)
posted by Flunkie at 7:13 PM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]

Interesting that he's meeting the phone call head-on. Although I suppose if he can convince his followers that the phone call was a-ok the rest is cake.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:27 PM on August 21, 2023

Unfortunately, I doubt anyone could prove he's breached the bail conditions on the basis of that 'truth' alone. It also depends on what time the consent order was signed, although it's likely the blabber was posted shortly after the order was signed (it was on the same day).
posted by dg at 9:12 PM on August 21, 2023

It may also be that the bail conditions don't kick in until he has been arraigned
posted by mbo at 9:16 PM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'm curious if the Georgia prosecutors could subpoena the supposed report and its authors as part of their case now?

Anything that delays the case or adds to proceedings in an appeals court seems good for Trump. I hope prosecutors do all they can to expedite the trial in a rational way, keeping in mind the criminal's stratagems.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:27 PM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]

The best way to ensure a speedy trial is to put trump in jail or house arrest until his trials. I don’t think there had ever been an espionage act trial involving this much highly classified material where the defendant hasn’t been in almost complete solitary confinement until trial. And that’s before we get to the racketeering, and Jan 6th cases.
posted by interogative mood at 9:39 PM on August 21, 2023 [5 favorites]

He's right about one thing: it is all about ELECTION INTERFERENCE!
posted by flabdablet at 10:57 PM on August 21, 2023 [4 favorites]

I fervently hope that whatever sentence TFG receives will involve him not having any access to social media. I don't follow him on social media at all, and have blocked his supporters as best I can, but screencaps of his posts and his videos are still showing up in my newsfeed because they're considered "news", and I can't take it anymore. I want him off my radar screen. I want him to be such a dead duck politically that whatever he manages to broadcast is considered to be nothing more than the aggressively irrelevant ravings of some senile clown, and no one shares them.
posted by orange swan at 6:30 AM on August 22, 2023 [17 favorites]

I finally figured out why the "perfect phone call" phrasing tweaks my brain so much. It's like he's saying that the call connected quickly and had no dropouts or intelligibility issues. "I was able to dial the number and was connected to the correct person! A+++ would dial again!"

The call isn't the issue, it's the conversation had on the call that is the issue.
posted by wierdo at 9:21 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'm curious if the Georgia prosecutors could subpoena the supposed report and its authors as part of their case now? There was nothing indicating it was part of his defense or produced by his lawyers when he announced it so it's probably not privileged.

I’m no law talking guy but I suspect that they are attempting to call it attorney client privileged work product by having Trump announce they will he using it in court filings instead. The prosecutor might go after it but I suspect that might let Trump use the fight over the report to delay the trial, so it mignt not be worth it.

This is basically my thought on the matter. There's no proof that the "report" actually exists, a reasonable jurist would assume that it doesn't, in fact, exist, even assuming that he was being truthful, it's "reasonable" to interpret his announcement of the report as something that was being prepared for his (since cancelled) press conference, and very easy to assume that it would all fall under attorney work-product. And since the claim now is that it will instead be submitted as court filings, there's no reason to subpoena it - they claim to be providing it in any case, and demanding some version of it other than what they plan to file would arguably be tantamount to self-incrimination.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:27 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]

And since the claim now is that it will instead be submitted as court filings, there's no reason to subpoena it - they claim to be providing it in any case, and demanding some version of it other than what they plan to file would arguably be tantamount to self-incrimination.

They've been noticeably more cautious about making formal court filings of their BS, given the penalties. But with this big of a clown crew headed to court, maybe someone will get desperate enough to try a hail Mary with a nutcase filing like that.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:18 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]

Can’t tell the players without a scorecard: The 272 People Connected With Trump's Criminal Cases
A comprehensive guide to the defendants, witnesses, lawyers, investigators, actors and judges involved in the saga enveloping the former president and his associates (The Messenger)
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:49 AM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]

So whats up with that bail?

Is Georgia a state with guidelines and maximum amounts or was that the judge's discression?

Bankman-Fried got hit with a $250 million bail, but that was California and the rules might be different.

So was that a judge being nice to Trump or what?
posted by sotonohito at 11:13 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]

Without actually looking up any guidelines, point of bail is to make sure you show up. Trump isn't much of a flight risk, whimsical spy-thriller daydreams notwithstanding. SBF is exactly the kind of dude who would be fine exfiltrating the coast on a small boat to spend the rest of his life somewhere without extradition; the money (hopefully) makes that too painful for his rather wealthy family.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:28 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]

The prosecutors are walking a line here. Just prosecuting him at all is political in a sense, but they still have to appear to be working in the interest of justice, and the judge above all has to appear to be impartial. I don't think a high bail would have served any function. As funny as it would have been to see him have to come up with a $1b bond, it would've seemed like impartiality. Trump is not going anywhere (despite people thinking he's going to flee to Russia or whatever, lol). The US gov't knows where he is at all times through the Secret Service detail. I was surprised they asked for bail at all, but that's the balance, no bail would've made the judge seem too lenient maybe? I dunno.
posted by dis_integration at 11:42 AM on August 22, 2023

I mean I favor abolishing cash bail entirely, but if commoners get hit with it then I think the aristocrats should also suffer from it.
posted by sotonohito at 1:31 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]

David Shaffer, one of the false electors, is trying to have his case moved to federal court.

He might actually have success because in the filing it's apparent from the transcripts that he thought it was a "what if the GA lawsuit succeeds" contingency and that he was extremely misled by Trump lawyer, Ray Smith.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:54 PM on August 22, 2023

Trump co-defendant Mark Meadows seeks emergency order to protect him from arrest in Georgia (Guardian)
posted by Glinn at 1:56 PM on August 22, 2023 [3 favorites]

Jeff Clark is also seeking an emergency stay.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:58 PM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]

Oh Mark, Mark... Look, you did a bunch of things. I know you're scared right now, but you really did them. It's on record. I'm sorry you aren't comfortable with your current circumstances but you really did do those things. You know you did. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.
posted by hippybear at 1:58 PM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]

The reason "perfect phone call" pings my radar is that "perfect" implies "no mistakes" or compliant with standards or something like that. And I don't think you judge a conversation like that normally, you judge it by results. The reason you judge by adherence to rules is if you are conscious of rules... like if you know that with one slipup you might say something that is a crime. I'm sure Trump gets coached on how to say things in the least illegal way, fucks it up, and then gets told by toadies it was perfect all the time.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:06 PM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]

He might actually have success because in the filing it's apparent from the transcripts that he thought it was a "what if the GA lawsuit succeeds" contingency and that he was extremely misled by Trump lawyer, Ray Smith.

David Fucking Shafer was the chair of the Georgia Republican Party and a former state legislator. He is not a rube. He is not an innocent who was led astray by some evil lawyer. He absofuckinglutely knew that what he was involved in was a criminal conspiracy to toss out the legal votes of Georgians and ultimately overthrow our Constitution. He just thought they would be successful.
posted by hydropsyche at 2:16 PM on August 22, 2023 [23 favorites]

Evidence they knew that what they were doing was criminal: When Atlanta independent journalist George Chidi stumbled upon the meeting of the fake electors in the Capitol on the day of the real electoral votes, they lied to him about the purpose of their meeting and threw him out. If they truly believed they were upholding their sacred duty as electors and doing nothing illegal, why did they lie about it?

(Chidi was subpoenaed for the grand jury hearing, but ultimately did not have to testify, thank goodness. As a journalist, he really did not want to.)
posted by hydropsyche at 2:23 PM on August 22, 2023 [16 favorites]

The reason "perfect phone call" pings my radar is that "perfect" implies "no mistakes" or compliant with standards or something like that. And I don't think you judge a conversation like that normally, you judge it by results.

That's standard parlance from TFG. He always describes himself or anything pertaining to him in grandiose superlatives, and it's always clear from the haphazard nature of those superlatives that he doesn't even have a clear idea of what actual excellence would entail. Remember that letter his doctor released in 2015 (which was actually dictated by TFG), attesting to his physical condition, in which it was said that his medical test results were "only positive" and his blood pressure and laboratory results were described as "astonishingly excellent"? No doctor would describe anyone's medical exam results that way, no matter how satisfactory they were.

And then there was the time he described a chocolate cake as "the most beautiful chocolate cake you have ever seen", though the audience he was addressing hadn't seen the cake in question, and as Michael Che put it on that week's episode of Saturday Night Live, "Donald Trump, you don't know what cake I've seen."
posted by orange swan at 3:05 PM on August 22, 2023 [8 favorites]

That's standard parlance from TFG. He always describes himself or anything pertaining to him in grandiose superlatives, and it's always clear from the haphazard nature of those superlatives that he doesn't even have a clear idea of what actual excellence would entail.

All true, yet I get the impression in this case that he invites a comparison between a "perfect phone call" and "the perfect crime."
posted by pwnguin at 3:28 PM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]

Prosecutors: Trump Mar-a-Lago security aide flipped after changing lawyers (Politico Aug. 22; also Yahoo News) A Trump employee who monitored security cameras at Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate abruptly retracted his earlier grand jury testimony and implicated Trump and others in obstruction of justice just after switching from an attorney paid for by a Trump political action committee to a lawyer from the federal defender’s office in Washington, prosecutors said in a court filing Tuesday.

The aide — described as “Trump Employee 4” in public court filings but identified elsewhere as Yuscil Taveras — held the title of director of information technology at Mar-a-Lago. He initially testified to a grand jury in Washington, D.C., that he was unaware of any effort to erase the videos, but after getting the new attorney “immediately … retracted his prior false testimony” and detailed the alleged effort to tamper with evidence related to the investigation of the handling of classified information stored at Trump’s Florida home, the new submission said.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:45 PM on August 22, 2023 [21 favorites]

The reason "perfect phone call" pings my radar is that "perfect" implies "no mistakes" or compliant with standards or something like that.

I am pretty sure the reason he thinks it’s perfect is because some lawyer told him he’d get arrested if he tried to shake down Raffensberger directly. By not overtly threatening him, Trump figured he’d evade legal responsibility. Thus, a perfect phone call.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 3:48 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]

You guys are seriously overthinking this "perfect phone call" phrasing. It's pleasing-sounding mouth babble. It's literally meaningless.
posted by kyrademon at 6:07 PM on August 22, 2023 [33 favorites]

So was that a judge being nice to Trump or what?

that's all he has left in his bank account
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:05 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]

Trump speaks in a characteristic manner that is less like a lawyer and more like a salesman. Which is because he is a salesman, not a lawyer, and that is probably a huge feature to his followers.

I like this sentence in the Meadows article: Trump’s legal team is also expected to argue that the case should be moved to federal court because he was acting in the capacity of president.
How the fuck do they expect that to work? Trump is clearly exhorting a public servant on tape, and he wants to claim he was doing his job as president??? I don't think that is how stuff works in the real world. They are working on an assumption of corruption in the judiciary, which tbh is not an entirely ridiculous assumption. But they haven't been paying judges off for decades like real billionaires. If you want to do that level of crime, you need more foresight.
posted by mumimor at 11:30 PM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]

You guys are seriously overthinking this "perfect phone call" phrasing. It's pleasing-sounding mouth babble.

Agreed. His thought process is as simple as "there wasn't anything bad about that phone call I made. It was totally fine. In fact, it was better than fine, it was perfect!"

It's the equivalent of Billy or Jeffy from Family Circus getting caught with a hand in the cookie jar and saying "nuh-uh, it wasn't me!"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:47 AM on August 23, 2023 [9 favorites]

Turns out our democracy really is under assault by a ghost named Perfect.
posted by Flunkie at 9:13 AM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]

Perfect Enemy of the Good Browne, an olde-timey Pilgrim ghost who hates democracy.
posted by Artw at 9:24 AM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]

Rude boy's out on bail!
Rude boy's outta jail!
posted by kirkaracha at 12:25 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]

For what it's worth, that legal theory paper disqualifying Trump from running in 2024 is starting to gain real traction, from what I'm seeing. While it's been a thing said by the Left since Jan 6, it's an idea that people have started to actually pay attention to now.

We'll see how far it goes from here. Much of the Republican Party power people are completely over Trump and only going along with him because votes, but I can see this snowballing if they think it can actually work.
posted by hippybear at 12:31 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]

Asa Hutchinson (former Arkansas governor and DEA/DHS bureaucrat, current long-shot R presidential candidate) is also floating the 14th amendment disqualification thing.
posted by box at 12:39 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]

It's a real easy way for the other R candidates and politicians to act like their hands were tied, except for whoever has to bring the suit, I guess
posted by jason_steakums at 1:20 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]

It's a real easy way for the other R candidates and politicians to act like their hands were tied, except for whoever has to bring the suit, I guess

Normally I'd say they'd need standing and to be an actual candidate which would be political suicide for them but with the 5th Circuit basically changing their standing rules to having bad vibes about something c/o Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine v. FDA they should just have some schmuck in Texas file it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:23 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]

It doesn't need any court challenge. It only needs enough people working at the state level certifying election candidates to say he doesn't qualify to knock him off of 270 delegates worth of states.

The court challenges come after that, trying to get him back on the ballot.
posted by hippybear at 1:38 PM on August 23, 2023 [6 favorites]

According to the August 19 Letters from an American by the excellent historian Heather Cox Richardson, the disqualification doesn't need anyone to bring a suit:

On August 14 an article forthcoming from the University of Pennsylvania Law Review by William Baude of the University of Chicago Law School and Michael S. Paulsen of the University of St. Thomas School of Law became available as a preprint. It argued that the third section of the Fourteenth Amendment is still in effect (countering arguments that it applied only to the Civil War era secessionists), that it is self-executing (meaning the disqualification of certain people is automatic, much as age limits or residency requirements are), and that Trump and others who participated in trying to steal the 2020 presidential election are disqualified from holding office.

(Emphasis mine.)

She goes on to note:

In The Atlantic today, two prominent legal scholars from opposite sides of the political spectrum, former federal judge J. Michael Luttig and emeritus professor of constitutional law at Harvard Law School Laurence H. Tribe, applauded the Baude-Paulsen article and suggested that the American people should support the “faithful application and enforcement of their Constitution.”

Laurence Tribe is a constitutional scholar and Professor Emeritus at Harvard. Wikipedia notes, "Tribe is one of the co-founders of the liberal American Constitution Society, the law and policy organization formed to counter the conservative Federalist Society."

The Guardian just ran an article about Tribe and indicted co-conspirator Kenneth Chesebro, ‘It baffles me’: what drew a mild lawyer with a liberal past into Trump’s election plot?:

Chesebro graduated from Harvard law in 1986. There he associated with a group of students clustered around the venerated liberal constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe.

Several of the group went on to have distinguished careers of their own – including Toobin, the US supreme court justice Elena Kagan and Ron Klain, Biden’s first White House chief of staff.

The article describes how Chesebro seemed mostly liberal - "He helped Tribe fight on behalf of the 2000 Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore in the supreme court blockbuster Bush v Gore, donated his money exclusively to Democratic candidates, and expressed glowing approval of the rising star of the party, Barack Obama. The cases he took on also had a clear liberal bent. " - right up until the mid 2010s, when he made millions in bitcoin and suddenly started working with Ted Cruz and fellow co-conspirator John Eastman.

I am grateful every day for Richardson and the valuable information she brings to my attention.
posted by kristi at 2:38 PM on August 23, 2023 [18 favorites]

Fulton County Sheriff's Office released mug shots of Rudy Giuliani, Sydney Powell, and Jenna Ellis.

That background isn't doing anyone any favors.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:39 PM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]

I can't quickly find it right now, but I saw earlier that they also released one of Eastman.
posted by Flunkie at 2:42 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]

Rex Huppke has posted the Brady Bunch-style checkerboard of mug shots.
posted by orange swan at 3:11 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]

Brady Bunch-style checkerboard of mug shots.

David Schafer and Jenna Ellis are nailing their corporate "About Us" page smiles.

Rudy Giulianni's trying to look tough, like he's having a staring contest with the camera.

While Ray Smith...did he always look like a total serial killer?
posted by nobody at 3:34 PM on August 23, 2023 [4 favorites]

Fulton County Sheriff's Office released mug shots of Rudy Giuliani, Sydney Powell, and Jenna Ellis.

From Twitter: "Worst FMK ever."
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:39 PM on August 23, 2023 [10 favorites]

Rex Huppke on Twitter (regarding the block of nine mugshots): "This is the Zoom meeting you have to sit through when you first get to Hell."
posted by orange swan at 4:08 PM on August 23, 2023 [22 favorites]

"This is the Zoom meeting you have to sit through when you first get to Hell."

I know there is a writer's strike, but this Hollywood Squares reboot is an abomination.
posted by Literaryhero at 6:23 PM on August 23, 2023 [19 favorites]

"This is the Zoom meeting you have to sit through when you first get to Hell."

i mean he's not wrong
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:03 PM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]

Judge denies Meadows, Clark attempts to block arrest in Georgia

A federal judge Wednesday rejected requests by former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows and Trump Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark’s to block their arrest in the Fulton County, Ga., election case.

posted by kirkaracha at 7:13 PM on August 23, 2023 [6 favorites]

In Trump’s Tucker Carlson interview counterprogramming to tonight's Republican debate, IMPOTUSx2/INDICTUSx4 says:

[the Panama Canal] was one of the true great wonders of the world. As he said, one of the nine wonders of the world. No, no, it was one of the seven, it happened a little while ago. You know, nine wonders of the world. You could make nine wonders. He would have been better off if he stuck with the nine and just said ‘yeah, I think it’s nine.’ But this is one of the true seven wonders of the world.

So, he's still sharp as a tack.

(And there is no antecedent for the "he" pronoun.)
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]

* Squinting at mug shots *

.....Why the hell is Jenna Ellis SMILING in her MUG SHOT? Does she really not get the purpose of the photo they were taking?

...I am also surprised just how happy I am to see Giuliani actually have to have a mug shot taken of him. I also can't mention that on Facebook because I will likely end up getting another email from a conservative relative and I just plain don't have the time for that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:19 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]

.....Why the hell is Jenna Ellis SMILING in her MUG SHOT? Does she really not get the purpose of the photo they were taking?

A couple of them look genuinely happy to be there.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:36 PM on August 23, 2023 [2 favorites]

.....Why the hell is Jenna Ellis SMILING in her MUG SHOT? Does she really not get the purpose of the photo they were taking?

I like to think it's because she's realizing the upside of not being represented by Trump's legal team right now.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:45 PM on August 23, 2023 [5 favorites]

.....Why the hell is Jenna Ellis SMILING in her MUG SHOT? Does she really not get the purpose of the photo they were taking?

Is this a rhetorical question? After all these years, who doesn't understand how this works? She's smiling to show defiance and unflappability.

If she goes down, then it will bankable differently. Post-release book & screen deals, etc.

Way smarter than Murder McGlowerface, who may be operating with the relative disadvantage of actual emotions (and the privilege of not being accustomed to concealing them).
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:47 PM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]

.....Why the hell is Jenna Ellis SMILING in her MUG SHOT? Does she really not get the purpose of the photo they were taking?

Is this a rhetorical question? After all these years, who doesn't understand how this works? She's smiling to show defiance and unflappability.

My actual guess is that the person doing the fingerprinting and mugshots probably has good people skills and got them joking and laughing. A couple of years ago I had to get fingerprints taken for a background check and the option locally was to go to the intake room at county lockup. It was interesting chatting to the fingerprint guy, who clearly had a knack for connecting with people and making the situation less tense as a way to get through things efficiently and smoothly.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:47 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

Trump makes change to Georgia legal team, hires attorney who has represented Atlanta rappers.
posted by mazola at 8:54 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

Get ready to see the MAGA crowd decked out in No Limit T-dog merch with zero sense of irony
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:02 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

A significant number of people smile in their mugshots.
posted by Flunkie at 9:25 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

Trump makes change to Georgia legal team, hires attorney who has represented Atlanta rappers.

So, I admit that I often struggle to follow the logic of Trumpian legal claims, but I think this means Trump is having an affair with... Young Thug, maybe?
posted by Flunkie at 9:34 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]

Rudy: A Truly Legendary Run
posted by mcstayinskool at 9:54 AM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

Trump makes change to Georgia legal team, hires attorney who has represented Atlanta rappers.

Trump's previous lawyer for the Fulton county case, Drew Findling, has also represented rappers (Gucci Mane, Cardi B); the new one, Steven Sadow, has another high-profile client with a RICO case -- Gunna.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:22 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

And they said in America there are no second acts.
posted by riverlife at 10:26 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

“Fani Willis Lays a Trap for Mark Meadows,” Jay Kuo, The Status Kuo, 24 August 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 12:02 PM on August 24, 2023 [13 favorites]

Willis responds to Chesebro's demand/bluff for a speedy trial and October 23rd start date: "Sounds good. Why don't you ALL show up on the 23rd?" (archive link)

Not that it's gonna happen, but that's just some awesome work on the part of DA Willis.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:47 PM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

The NYT now has a front-page article about the smiling mugshots.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:53 PM on August 24, 2023

NYT should have waited because Meadows' mugshot just came in.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:55 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

From Daily Beast, "Trump Co-Defendant’s ‘Risky Gamble’ Backfires in Georgia":

After co-defendant Kenneth Chesebro demanded on Wednesday that he get a speedy trial, Willis appears to have called his bluff, saying she’d be more than happy to put all 19 defendants on trial from Oct. 23, 2023—just eight weeks away.

[...]

Chesebro’s request for a speedy trial was “the legal equivalent of throwing a bomb into the proceedings and gambling that Willis wasn’t ready,” Tamar Hallerman, an Atlanta Journal-Constitution reporter covering the Fulton County proceedings, wrote on Twitter.

Indeed, legal experts called it a “risky gamble” that appears to have backfired after Willis showed her readiness to push ahead.

Not sure what happens when one defendant among a whole bunch is pushing for a speedy trial while the other defendants presumably would prefer more time or to just simply drag out the proceedings. Does he get to sever his defense? Since they were all in a conspiracy together, I'm not sure how this plays out.
posted by mhum at 12:58 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Don't think he gets to sever just from that. Have any of the others asked for a specific trial date in the Georgia case?

What would be great is if the other 18 start giving him grief and he flips, just out of spite. One can dream.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:11 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

Chesebro’s request for a speedy trial was “the legal equivalent of throwing a bomb into the proceedings and gambling that Willis wasn’t ready,”

The charges had been "imminent" for several months. She was undoubtedly spending that time getting more ready than anyone could imagine.
posted by hippybear at 1:16 PM on August 24, 2023 [9 favorites]

The judge approved the earlier trial for Chesebro but said it did not apply to the other co-defendants.
posted by mittens at 1:36 PM on August 24, 2023

And Trump's lawyers have asked for his case to be severed from Chesebro as well as from any others who ask for a speedy trial (as per the "Trump's Co-Defendant's 'Risky Gamble' Backfires in Georgia" article that mhum linked to just above).

I wonder how this affects how things will play out for Trump - I imagine they'll be presenting a lot of the same evidence in both cases? Seems like it will kind of be a practice run both for the prosecution and for the (second) defendants? As well as probably setting further expectations regarding Trump et al in the court of public opinion.
posted by Flunkie at 2:13 PM on August 24, 2023

Also, I'm not so sure that I am convinced by the article's assessment of it as a "risky gamble" that has "backfired". If I'm Chesebro (or pretty much any other non-Trump defendant), as long as my own lawyers are ready, or feel that they certainly will be in time, I think I'm definitely hoping to get my case as far away from Trump's as possible.
posted by Flunkie at 2:16 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

If I'm Chesebro... I think I'm definitely hoping to get my case as far away from Trump's as possible.

Yeah, his well-known lack of loyalty likely means whenever he's put on the stand, he's going to start throwing his co-conspirators to the wolves. I'm sure Cheesebro would like his trial to be over before then.
posted by jackbishop at 2:25 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

It's interesting that Cheesebro is going for a trial rather than a flip and avoiding trial. But maybe actually admitting guilt is too much? He's going to try to argue his own innocence through his lawyers and maybe on the stand?

It's always great when RICO-accused try to talk their way out of their charges.
posted by hippybear at 2:29 PM on August 24, 2023

I must assume that the Wombo app on my phone is currently down specifically so that I cannot make Rudy's mugshot sing Despacito.
posted by delfin at 2:37 PM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

If only Terry Gilliam were still doing animations today, and doing them for modern events, and quickly.
posted by hippybear at 3:00 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

“Fani Willis Lays a Trap for Mark Meadows”

When I read Fani Willis’s response last night, I whistled in admiration. As an one-time avid chess player myself, I recognize a “fork” trap when I see one. A fork move is when a single piece attacks more than one piece simultaneously, as when a knight threatens both a queen and a rook from its new position. When executed correctly, no matter what the opponent does next, it will lead to a body blow.

That is the trap Willis has laid out in her papers. She begins by arguing that, under the Hatch Act, federal officials within the Executive Branch are forbidden from engaging in political activity in the course of their work. That means no campaigning, for example, from the White House or by White House staff, including the chief of staff. It includes a specific prohibition on anyone “us[ing] his official authority or influence for the purpose of interfering with or affecting the result of an election.”
...
Willis points out that the state charges against Meadows arise precisely from his disregard for the lawful scope of his duties. He can’t have been acting under color of federal law while blatantly violating the Hatch Act prohibition on interfering with the result of the election.

That’s already pretty devastating, but then here comes the fork. Meadows, Wills argues, has claimed outright in a different filing that “all of his relevant conduct was impermissible political activity” by asserting that his actions were “unquestionably political” in nature.
...
Thanks for that admission, Mark. To make your First Amendment argument, you just set yourself up for a takedown on your removal request. In fact, Willis points out, Meadows has admitted he was running around doing “unquestionably political activity” in violation of his duties as a federal official under the Hatch Act.

"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed.

"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.”
posted by kirkaracha at 3:11 PM on August 24, 2023 [21 favorites]

Per Political Wire, IMPOTUSx2/INDICTUSx4 announced he'll be surrendering at 7:30 p.m. Eastern today.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:18 PM on August 24, 2023

They're going to weigh him and they're going to release his weight and he will be over 300# and that will be the next two days of the news cycle.
posted by hippybear at 3:33 PM on August 24, 2023 [7 favorites]

I'm interested in legitimate, lift-less height, but:

Former president Donald Trump is scheduled to surrender at the Fulton County jail in Atlanta on Thursday, prompting speculation that the world will finally learn how tall he is and how much he weighs. But based on the booking records for his co-defendants that have already emerged this week, anyone expecting those details is likely to be disappointed. [While] records of those co-defendants list each person’s height, weight, race and hair and eye color, it’s clear that many of the statistics are wrong. What’s not clear is where officials with the Fulton County Sheriff’s Office got them. (Wapo, gift link)
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:04 PM on August 24, 2023

CNN is reporting that Fulton County says he's 215 pounds. I call BULLSHIT.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:59 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

>it’s clear that many of the statistics are wrong.

Mos def. 6'3, 215, lol no
posted by cashman at 5:00 PM on August 24, 2023

I guess it is like the DMV. They ask for height and weight and you give them some numbers.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:00 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

from the CNN live update blog, so not sure how to directly link the specific entry:

The former president covered the cost of the bond by putting 10% toward it and he worked with a local Atlanta bonding company Foster Bail Bonds LLC, sources told CNN.

posted by glonous keming at 5:04 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

The former president covered the cost of the bond by putting 10% toward it and he worked with a local Atlanta bonding company Foster Bail Bonds LLC, sources told CNN.

Billionaire my butt.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:08 PM on August 24, 2023 [11 favorites]

imagine being a bail bondsman hunting down TFG after he skips
posted by glonous keming at 5:16 PM on August 24, 2023 [16 favorites]

Can we cool it with the fatphobia, please.

Thanks,
Someone who likely weighs as much as or more than TFG
posted by humbug at 5:22 PM on August 24, 2023 [24 favorites]

It's the inaccuracy for me. I don't even get why a jail would do that, just seemingly ask people to self-report. Like how does that make sense in a law enforcement context.
posted by cashman at 5:26 PM on August 24, 2023 [12 favorites]

It's also the way he talks about other peoples' appearances. While his rapidly approaches readiness to take up residence in Mdm. Tussaud's with no need for the usual arrangements.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:30 PM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

tfMugshot
posted by glonous keming at 5:36 PM on August 24, 2023 [15 favorites]

Is that the guy who has a pigeon living in his hair?
posted by riverlife at 5:42 PM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

I guess it is like the DMV. They ask for height and weight and you give them some numbers.

While technically illegal to make a false statement to a state of Georgia official, I doubt they'll bother adding it to the list.
posted by pwnguin at 5:48 PM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

Wow, that is one fucking SATANIC MUGSHOT! Go to it, Photoshoppers!
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:50 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

His weight is not the point of ridicule, in and of itself. It is his combination of vanity, in being unwilling to admit to anything remotely resembling reality, and shamelessness, in that he expects anyone to believe it. Both quintessential Trumpian nonsense.

For reference, this is what 6'3", 214 lbs looks like.
posted by delfin at 5:51 PM on August 24, 2023 [16 favorites]

I'm not that far off from his claimed height and weight, and it is so obviously, farcically wrong. Like, if you are going to lie about things, why not pick a believable lie? Like, subtract 20 pounds. But like all his lies, it's just over the top and disconnected from reality (which is the point, apparently).
posted by Dip Flash at 5:55 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

In my eyes, lying about his weight is the only relatable thing that he's ever done.
posted by carrienation at 6:01 PM on August 24, 2023 [10 favorites]

“Rudy Giuliani Was A Creation of The New York Media,” Spencer Ackerman, Forever Wars, 24 Aug 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 6:01 PM on August 24, 2023 [9 favorites]

holy jesus, it's Two-Face! somebody light up the bat signal!
posted by mittens at 6:04 PM on August 24, 2023

Uncanny
posted by Rhaomi at 6:12 PM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

Seriously y'all, stop fucking doubling down on the fatphobia and historic pictures of Muhammed Ali for comparison are bullshit. There are a hundred ways to look a certain height and weight. We don't need to go into this at all, and it's punching down at a lot of us IN THIS COMMUNITY to keep bringing this up.

And now I seriously hate everyone here because I almost defended TFG or something.
posted by TwoStride at 6:14 PM on August 24, 2023 [17 favorites]

"Two Face" you say
posted by mbo at 6:24 PM on August 24, 2023 [9 favorites]

Jan. 6 Rally Organizer Created Her Own Mugshot Because She Felt Left Out
posted by Rhaomi at 6:27 PM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

that mugshot is a face full of hate bordering on rage - he's gone to burn himself out from the inside with that until his blood turns to cement
posted by pyramid termite at 6:35 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

That mugshot is a well-practiced television face of rage. He was making angry faces "firing" people for years, and you bet he was looking at his performances and refining them. When he was first campaigning there was a whole thing with people getting their picture taken with him doing a fake "you're fired" pose for which he would do a full wind-up for every photo.

That's not his real face. That's the face he decided to wear. for that photo.
posted by hippybear at 6:38 PM on August 24, 2023 [20 favorites]

Jan. 6 Rally Organizer Created Her Own Mugshot Because She Felt Left Out

Whoa, comparing her vs. Trump on the wall's sheriff's badge, that lady's gotta be like 6'9" or something
posted by Flunkie at 6:42 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

It wouldn’t surprise me if Trunp is taking Wegovy and has lost weight like so many other celebrities recently.
posted by interogative mood at 6:47 PM on August 24, 2023

His weight is not the point of ridicule, in and of itself. It is his combination of vanity, in being unwilling to admit to anything remotely resembling reality, and shamelessness, in that he expects anyone to believe it. Both quintessential Trumpian nonsense.

I’d also add his flagrant double standard for women - remember the attacks on Clinton’s ankles? It’s not just that he lies constantly but that he’s clearly daring anyone to publicly disagree with him, which is a bit more newsworthy since that’s a common cult leader phenomenon which never leads to something good.
posted by adamsc at 6:48 PM on August 24, 2023 [9 favorites]

It's going to be hilarious to see the cultists pretend that they believe that's a badass glare of righteous rage. Like when they draw pictures of him slaying a dragon or some shit. They know it's a shitty attempt at Blue Steel that he didn't even pull off, but they're going to fall over each other applauding the emperor's new face.
posted by Etrigan at 6:48 PM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

That mugshot. Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:49 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

Dude looks like he’s recovering from a stroke.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 6:52 PM on August 24, 2023

We are what we pretend to be, so we must be very careful what we pretend to be. - kurt vonnegut jr

yes, at one point, it was an act for him, although i'm sure there are things in his personality that were always useful to draw on - but it's almost demonic how that inner tough guy has been fed and fed by his ego until he no longer plays the part, but the part plays him

the concept of his part in history has got him by the balls - this is who he wanted to be and now this is who he is - and if he felt his role in history required him to be a martyr of government "oppression", he would do that, too, as long he was sure it would inspire chaos and revenge

That mugshot. Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

do you think they make diapers with gold lining, brain?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:54 PM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

He looks like he's about to cry. Which, like, I get it. Nothing sadder than the consequences of one's own bad actions. Sad.
posted by surlyben at 8:02 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Nothing's sadder than a sad oompa loompa.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:09 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

count on Time magazine to photoshop the mugshot so he appears oranger than he actually is
posted by logicpunk at 8:15 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

CNN is reporting that Fulton County says he's 215 pounds. I call BULLSHIT.

it is bullshit absolutely but at least we got that fuckers mug shot
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:27 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

imagine being a bail bondsman hunting down TFG after he skips

midnight runs
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:38 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

Yes, CNN reported the weight (and height) as given, but the on-air team also discussed whether it was self-reported (and the consensus was that it had been, and that included input from lawyers on the panel). Also, part of the discussion was about the description of his hair which was listed as blond or strawberry. The strawberry part in particular threw Jake Tapper for a loop which lead to comments such as "I've never seen that option on a form."
posted by sardonyx at 8:48 PM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

it is bullshit absolutely but at least we got that fuckers mug shot

I was in a bar in Durham, North Carolina, on election night in 1992. It had a similar vibe when the election was called for Clinton. What a long, strange trip it's been.
posted by mollweide at 8:51 PM on August 24, 2023

someone please edit TFGs wikipedia page with his official mug shot, i would die on that edit war hamburger hill
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:10 PM on August 24, 2023 [8 favorites]

The Lincoln Project has posted video of the reaction to TFG's mugshot appearing onscreen in what appears to be a crowded sports bar. I'm hitting replay repeatedly on it.
posted by orange swan at 10:30 PM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]

FYI, Trump’s mug shot is posted on his wiki page but further down, not in the official POTUS section. (Off now to buy brain bleach)
posted by TWinbrook8 at 10:35 PM on August 24, 2023

It's remarkable that one day you can be arrested and have your evil villain mugshot put on blast yet still be considered to have decisively crushed the debate you refused to attend the night before.
posted by riverlife at 10:42 PM on August 24, 2023 [8 favorites]

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

The Lincoln Project has posted video of the reaction to TFG's mugshot appearing onscreen in what appears to be a crowded sports bar. I'm hitting replay repeatedly on it.

I'm pretty sure I've seen that video in a different context before. I think the news feed is composited.
posted by brundlefly at 10:47 PM on August 24, 2023 [10 favorites]

It's remarkable that one day you can be arrested and have your evil villain mugshot put on blast yet still be considered to have decisively crushed the debate you refused to attend the night before.

2020's/darkest timeline.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:53 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Tuberville (R-Alabama) thinks it's Trump's golf face.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:58 PM on August 24, 2023

It truly is a hilarious mugshot. He was clearly going for his usual Blue Steel "badass" expression but the angle and the lighting made it looks even more ridiculous than usual. Perfect.
posted by brundlefly at 11:01 PM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

I think that look is more Blue Cheese than Blue Steel: pungent and overwhelming, people who like it really like it, people who don't would rather sniff their own toejam.
posted by flabdablet at 11:10 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

I'm pretty sure I've seen that video in a different context before. I think the news feed is composited.

[does some digging] Yes, you're right. The real video was of soccer fans at Ashton Gate Stadium, Bristol, celebrating England's win against Wales at Euro 2016.
posted by orange swan at 11:12 PM on August 24, 2023 [10 favorites]

The racial disparity of the US criminal justice system seems to extend all the way into high-profile cases like this... According to The Guardian everyone is out on bail except the one Black guy:

Trump’s co-defendants in the case were also released on bond, except for Harrison Floyd, who was associated with a Black Voices for Trump group and accused of conspiring to commit false statements and illegally influencing a witness. He remained in the jail, a notorious facility known for its dire conditions and frequent deaths.

posted by autopilot at 11:58 PM on August 24, 2023 [9 favorites]

Floyd was charged in May with "simple assault on a federal officer;" he's accused of striking one of the FBI agents serving him the (election-interference) subpoena at his home in Maryland. He says they didn't properly identify themselves, they say they did.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:34 AM on August 25, 2023 [4 favorites]

Bless us all, there exists now an image of the mugshot, on a mug, with the words NEVER SURRENDER. The backside of this Jacob's Ladder madness does have a few good, dark laughs to distract just the slightest bit from the tumult and violent blows.
posted by riverlife at 12:59 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

It's amazing how lying, hiding, ducking, blustering and pouting adds up to decisively crushing.
posted by y2karl at 3:04 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]

The scowl that launched a million.tweets.
posted by y2karl at 3:18 AM on August 25, 2023

I think that look is more Blue Cheese than Blue Steel

Elsewhere I've seen someone calling it "Blue Steal".

Bless us all, there exists now an image of the mugshot, on a mug, with the words NEVER SURRENDER.

People are also photoshopping a mugshot of their own themselves to show solidarity.

...Although, elsewhere I read that one such photoshopper was Amy Kremer, who was chair of the Women For American First group. She tweeted that out - and there were some confused supporters who said "gee, I didn't know you were there!" (Another follower even asked who it was.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:12 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

All I see is a toddler who’s been sent to the corner
posted by antinomia at 4:30 AM on August 25, 2023 [7 favorites]

I really cannot get myself in the headspace of people who find him powerful and credible. Like, even if I didn’t find everything he stands for morally repugnant, the vibes are the most off it’s possible for vibes to be.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:40 AM on August 25, 2023 [9 favorites]

Bless us all, there exists now an image of the mugshot, on a mug, with the words NEVER SURRENDER.

He...just surrendered.

blink blink
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:58 AM on August 25, 2023 [19 favorites]

People are also photoshopping a mugshot of their own themselves to show solidarity.
(Rolling Stone: MTG Photoshops Herself Into Fulton County Mugshot)

The Lathe and The Lather
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:03 AM on August 25, 2023

Bless us all, there exists now an image of the mugshot, on a mug, with the words NEVER SURRENDER.

I would seriously consider buying one of those if it was one of those heat changing mugs where the picture disappears when it returns to room temperature after the hot drink inside is gone.

Imagine.

Just watching him.

disappear.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:46 AM on August 25, 2023 [7 favorites]

antinomia: “All I see is a toddler who’s been sent to the corner”

K.O. said on Countdown this morning that, as a fellow robust man of middle years, he knew exactly why Trump struck that pose: To hide his chins.
posted by ob1quixote at 6:02 AM on August 25, 2023 [12 favorites]

ob1quixote: I also recognized that pose from long experience and careful practice in the mirror
posted by Countess Elena at 6:36 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

Re: that mugshot. He's trying to look like the tough guy he thinks he is. It makes me think of those ridiculous flags with his head photoshopped on Rambo's body. His toxic fanbase will eat it up.
posted by sundrop at 6:41 AM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

For a minute there, I thought "Cheesebro" was some new disparaging nickname for TFG. The name tracks well for a Trumpian henchman though so I'm here for it either way.
posted by VTX at 6:42 AM on August 25, 2023 [5 favorites]

I know it's easy to make fun of his looks, but he also tried to steal my vote and the votes of millions of other Georgians, overthrow our Constitution, and install himself as dictator, and luckily that is what we're actually focusing on now.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:52 AM on August 25, 2023 [22 favorites]

The Kubrick Stare
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:05 AM on August 25, 2023 [19 favorites]

Yes, of course. A friend that that does not support him said he looked, "like a badass," and I felt compelled to push back. I do think it's worth pointing out that it's not toughness, but vanity.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:05 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]

Wow, that is one fucking SATANIC MUGSHOT! Go to it, Photoshoppers!

He's pissed because he thought he was going to get a mug for his troubles.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:15 AM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

Presumed Guilty (Lawyers, Guns, and Money) shows the Kubrick stare, quotes a little of the commentary, and near the end, has this:

To say Trump is innocent until proven guilty is to reference a very narrow and technical rule of criminal law — the burden of proof in a criminal trial — that has quite literally nothing whatsoever to do with the presumptions that ought to be made about him outside of that extraordinary situation.

Any sentient non-delusional person who has paid attention to Donald Trump’s career knows to a moral certainty that Trump has committed countless serious crimes, from sexual assault to tax fraud, to money laundering, to the countless high crimes he committed while leaving a sinuous trail of slime around the White House, culminating in conspiring to overthrow the lawful government of the United States.

posted by kingless at 7:19 AM on August 25, 2023 [15 favorites]

Newsweek: Trump sold Mar-A-Lago to a company owned by Don Jr. before his arrest

Which isn't illegal, but the timing certainly makes you think.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:27 AM on August 25, 2023 [12 favorites]

K.O. said on Countdown this morning that, as a fellow robust man of middle years, he knew exactly why Trump struck that pose: To hide his chins.

One of the articles in the NYT the other day about him refusing to go to the debate identified a major part of his unhappiness with Fox that they were using a particularly unflattering photo of his chin.

I found the article:

“Why doesn’t Fox and Friends show all of the Polls where I am beating Biden, by a lot,” Mr. Trump posted on Truth Social, venting about the network’s morning show. He added: “Also, they purposely show the absolutely worst pictures of me, especially the big ‘orange’ one with my chin pulled way back. They think they are getting away with something, they’re not.”
posted by Dip Flash at 7:29 AM on August 25, 2023

Will all these now become collectibles?
posted by y2karl at 7:30 AM on August 25, 2023

Fun fact: I too have had my mugshot taken at Fulton County jail so I guess I have one thing in common with Doofus Dump.
posted by Kitteh at 7:33 AM on August 25, 2023 [18 favorites]

TFG's mugshot weirdly doesn't match the others. Specifically in how large, and the placement of, the Sheriff's logo. TFG's is much smaller and somewhat higher. I wonder if that was a conscious decision by Sheriff Patrick Labat to not be associated with that specific arrest.
posted by Mitheral at 7:37 AM on August 25, 2023

I would seriously consider buying one of those if it was one of those heat changing mugs where the picture disappears when it returns to room temperature after the hot drink inside is gone.

Or changes to one like this.
posted by y2karl at 7:40 AM on August 25, 2023 [4 favorites]

A friend that that does not support him said he looked, "like a badass," and I felt compelled to push back.

I just don't get other people. It's so so so clear that he's the furthest thing from a badass, he's trying way too hard to project it so he comes across like a child, and he just looks ridiculous, and to hear anyone taking his play-acting seriously just reminds me of all the times I've run into someone who just fundamentally sees the world through such a different lens that sarcasm or irony is interpreted so wildly differently that it's like you're speaking different languages. I feel the same way about his mugshot trying to project machismo as I do when anyone tries too hard to do that, and yet clearly there are a lot of people who buy into the fiction of that in the world instead of reading it as obvious insecurity... I just don't get it. I'm sure I'm not a particularly smart person, I don't think this is an intelligence or education thing, just a weird fundamental difference I've never gotten a handle on. You could completely divorce political affiliation from Trump and he'd still read as clear as day as one of the phoniest men who ever lived, he always has long before I ever knew anything about his politics, and yet, somehow, that's not immediately apparent to everyone.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:57 AM on August 25, 2023 [18 favorites]

I just don't get it.

I would guess that you have a healthy combination of self-respect and knowing your own value. Feeling even sort of comfortable in your own skin is sometimes like a super power, in that other people's insecurities and bravado and posturing and bluffing and projection etc. become painfully obvious, because all they're really telegraphing is how they don't feel comfortable in their own skin. So you can see it clearly because you're not constantly grasping for affirmation from other people out in the world, like they are.

Those folks are the ones susceptible to misreading an image like Trump's mugshot, because they're not just seeing the same literal image you are, they are viewing through the filter of their own feelings of inferiority, so it kind of takes on an aspirational sheen. 'I want to feel like that guy looks' is what is persuasive to them, I think.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:57 AM on August 25, 2023 [11 favorites]

Was thinking in the shower "I'm sure someone took TFG's booking number and grabbed P01135809.com", and sure enough.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:25 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]

I honestly don't understand the surprise about smiling for a mug shot. It's very common in the USA for people to smile whenever their picture is being taken. Why not smile? What's the down side?

Lots of people get mug shots when they've been suddenly arrested, maybe drunk, probably not treated gently by the police, so it's no surprise they are scowling or look upset. But if you've been given plenty of notice to show up for a photo and are gonna be pleading innocent, why wouldn't you smile for your picture?
posted by straight at 9:27 AM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

Bless us all, there exists now an image of the mugshot, on a mug

A covfefe mug?
posted by kirkaracha at 9:48 AM on August 25, 2023 [9 favorites]

he just looks ridiculous

And has done, consistently, since the first appearance of That Combover.

I have long rated TFG's absurd head souffle as his first clear success at normalizing the ridiculous, and it continues to boggle my mind that so many people fail so completely to read it as the screaming character tell that it manifestly is.

That, and the orange face paint, have me fully convinced that TFG has always taken his presentation advice from somebody who truly despises him. This opinion remains defensible even if it turns out that they actually are him.
posted by flabdablet at 9:51 AM on August 25, 2023 [5 favorites]

CNN is reporting that Fulton County says he's 215 pounds. I call BULLSHIT.

It's aspirational.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:54 AM on August 25, 2023

It’s aspirational

Because it elicits sharp gasps?
posted by wabbittwax at 9:56 AM on August 25, 2023 [21 favorites]

Jay Kuo: Kenneth Chesebro Chose the Dark Side

Chesebro is undoubtedly aware of this possibility, and if he’s as intelligent and strategic as he was in crafting those election challenge plans, he also knows that the early trial date might not and indeed likely will not hold, especially with so many competing interests at play. Still, my guess is that Chesebro thinks it’s his best chance to press ahead and perhaps strike a plea deal before further investigation reveals more problematic evidence of criminality.

Worth clicking through for the profile on "The Cheese."
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:52 AM on August 25, 2023 [5 favorites]

Oh, wow, ChurchHatesTucker, that is one mind-blowing long and revealing article. And here I was settling into clinical depression over all the clusterfuckery and the idea of TFG might get elected again. To our doom. You have brightened my day -- thank you so much!
posted by y2karl at 11:42 AM on August 25, 2023

So this is all true to form, then.

“First, Ken shows up with two typewriters—one and a backup—which I had never seen before,” the student went on. “Then, with about 15 minutes left in the exam, a woman starts panicking because her typewriter has broken. She notices that Ken has two, and she asks him to borrow one for the last few minutes. He says no and tells her, ‘Harvard Law School is a dog-eat-dog place.’”

The Cheese stands alone.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:42 AM on August 25, 2023 [5 favorites]

George Takei :verified: 🏳️‍🌈🖖🏽 (@georgetakei@universeodon.com)

That mugshot should be called “Blue Steal.” Get it?

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:30 PM on August 25, 2023

I think Blew Steal is better.
posted by flabdablet at 12:31 PM on August 25, 2023 [5 favorites]

Okay, I gotta share - a good friend wrote this filk of "867-5309 (Jenny)" about the current state of affairs:

"Rudy, I got my number
I lost to sleepy Joe
I'm going to die in prison

1135809
1135809...."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:51 PM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

I never picked Sarah Palin as someone with even a hint of a skerrick of political insight, but I think she has nailed it with her analysis of the American justice system. According to an article in The Guardian she is quoted as saying about the indictments, "“Those who are conducting this travesty and creating this two-tier system of justice, I want to ask them what the heck, do you want us to be in civil war? Because that’s what’s going to happen,” Palin told Newsmax on Thursday night."

I don't a meter has been built to measure that amount irony.
posted by vac2003 at 12:56 PM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]

Metafilter: Settling into clinical depression over all the clusterfuckery
posted by jason_steakums at 12:57 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

For whatever it's worth, Muhammad Ali was 6'3" and 215 pounds. No, this isn't trivia I randomly know, I just happened to run into this factoid a moment ago.
posted by loquacious at 1:00 PM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]

It's possible that it will turn out that she reached the correct conclusion, but basing it on the idea that it is "creating this two-tier system of justice" is pretty much the opposite of reality. Ignoring it would be creating (or expanding) a two-tier system of justice.
posted by Flunkie at 1:01 PM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

"Those who are conducting this travesty and creating this two-tier system of justice, I want to ask them what the heck, do you want us to be in civil war? Because that’s what’s going to happen,” Palin told Newsmax on Thursday night.

Finally incapable of hearing that in any voice but Tina Fey's. I'm counting this as a personal victory.
posted by heyho at 1:07 PM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

I just think the two tiers she means are conservatives vs liberals.

"Keep prosecuting us like you're doing to Trump and there's going to be a civil war." More or less.

Just more bad faith BS not worth any real thought.
posted by VTX at 1:09 PM on August 25, 2023

I thought surely the irony was how all these people who are being charged with really serious crimes aren't being put behind bars like most other people in similar circumstances would be, and was predicting a civil uprising from the underclass protesting their comparatively unfair treatment.
posted by hippybear at 1:11 PM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]

Or generally the "two tiered" justice system for corporate wrongdoing, white collar criminals, the wealthy and influential, and LEOs, and everyone else.

And the racial disparities in policing, enforcement and incarceration. Which are at least related to the Civil War we already had.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:23 PM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

It's kinda nuts how the popular spotlight has basically abandoned Palin. In any other circumstances I would celebrate that, if it weren't for the fact that it was a lateral move at best.
posted by brundlefly at 1:27 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

For whatever it's worth, Muhammad Ali was 6'3" and 215 pounds. No, this isn't trivia I randomly know, I just happened to run into this factoid a moment ago.

Social media is also full of photo comparisons with other athletes, but let's be frank, how many of us have that kind of physique? But, you can also compare the claim to regular people with regular builds who have approximately those measurements, and it is just laughable.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:03 PM on August 25, 2023

Discussion of Trump's weight isn't fatphobia on full display. It's mocking him for his lies. He released a doctor's health report at one point that was full of language that no doctor ever puts into a report. He's spending all his time, even with the most trivial of details, plating everything with gold.

I don't care that he's heavy. A lot of people are, and many of the men I've pursued in my life are in the "bear" category. I _do_ care that he's a man running for the highest office in the country who consistently lies about ABSOLUTELY FUCKING EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME.
posted by hippybear at 2:11 PM on August 25, 2023 [31 favorites]

Via Politico: "Three Georgia Republicans who falsely claimed to be electors for Donald Trump...say they took the steps they did because Trump, then the sitting president, told them to."
posted by kirkaracha at 2:15 PM on August 25, 2023 [8 favorites]

Campaign lawyers work for the candidate or the party, not the federal government. By definition. Being instructed by campaign lawyers to do something is absolutely not the same thing as being instructed by a federal attorney to do something. Again, David Shafer is not a rube. He knows this. But it sure sells well to the know nothings who are still trying to overthrow our government. (Shawn Still and Cathy Latham may in fact be rubes. But they still know that one should consult an attorney when criming)
posted by hydropsyche at 2:24 PM on August 25, 2023

It's kinda nuts how the popular spotlight has basically abandoned Palin. In any other circumstances I would celebrate that, if it weren't for the fact that it was a lateral move at best.

What has she done to remain in the limelight? She hasn't run for anything and won since resigning from the Governorship of Alaska. She has nothing new to say that this year's model of vapid conservative women isn't also saying, louder and angrier and crazier. The guy who brought her to national prominence, McCain, is now persona non grata amongst conservatives and their poster boy for "Republican In Name Only."

She did dress up in a purple bear suit and sing "Baby Got Back." That's one in her favor.

As for her having a single atom's worth of political insight, there's a neat shortcut one can use; any time you read the phrase "(Person) told Newsmax," that person can be safely dismissed as having none.
posted by delfin at 2:25 PM on August 25, 2023 [6 favorites]

It's a wonderful mugshot, though it does make me wonder why Jim Carrey was cast as the Grinch.
posted by johnofjack at 2:51 PM on August 25, 2023

Yes. There is an inherent hilarity to the fact that Donald Trump posits himself as Charles Atlas, as I'm sure he posits himself a person who has "perfect conversations" with world leaders, who has a totally normal haircut and knows the appropriate length of a tie, who has the very best tie length, many people are talking about how all the best ties are held in place with a small length of scotch tape.

But I think it's worth lifting back up that there's a giddyness in this thread about Trump's hypothetical weight, which feels to multiple people like fat shaming. Possibly a circumstance where doubling down is not necessary or being correct about the semantics is not the most important value.
posted by kensington314 at 3:16 PM on August 25, 2023 [7 favorites]

Donald Trump will never see your MetaFilter comments about his weight.

But plenty of fat MeFites will.
posted by box at 3:20 PM on August 25, 2023 [22 favorites]

they took the steps they did because Trump, then the sitting president, told them to."

Ah, the not often employed just following orders defense; to a case of RICO no less. Let's see how that works.
posted by Mitheral at 3:21 PM on August 25, 2023 [5 favorites]

We are NOT fat shaming. We are lying shaming, while acknowledging how vain TRG is, and how he has done this to many women in the past. And so, when he presents a lie so obviously, we get our hackles up. You are who you are. Rock On!

But, you are probably not a lying liar who perpetuates this stuff, and neither are most mefites.
posted by Windopaene at 3:37 PM on August 25, 2023 [12 favorites]

Yes. There is an inherent hilarity to the fact that Donald Trump posits himself as Charles Atlas, as I'm sure he posits himself a person who has "perfect conversations" with world leaders, who has a totally normal haircut and knows the appropriate length of a tie, who has the very best tie length, many people are talking about how all the best ties are held in place with a small length of scotch tape.

I'm reminded of the contrast between how he bragged about the size of his hands and dick during his first primary campaign versus the description by someone who actually saw it. (Link has NSFW text., obviously) They guy has a weird compulsion to exaggerate and lie including about things with absolutely no importance, and about things that are self-evidently false.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:46 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

Whatever the ending amount is will be offered to TFG, if he will do it.

"If you want to bequeath less to Eric, that's up to you."
posted by rhizome at 3:47 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

They guy has a weird compulsion to exaggerate and lie including about things with absolutely no importance, and about things that are self-evidently false.

"He'd lie about what time of day it is, just for the practice."
posted by rhizome at 3:49 PM on August 25, 2023 [6 favorites]

He consistently lies about how many floor his buildings have adding 10-20% more floors. It's a combination of a bullies flex and an inability to remember things.
posted by Mitheral at 4:09 PM on August 25, 2023

Possibly a circumstance where doubling down is not necessary or being correct about the semantics is not the most important value.

I’m not sure anyone’s trying to argue semantics so much as they’re simply trying to clarify their stance while being misunderstood. Regardless, at this point both sides have made their cases multiple times, so perhaps just flag and move on?
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 4:16 PM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]

The rapidity with which many Mefites in this thread leap to fatshaming and then defend it tells me how quickly they could judge and mock me should they meet me IRL. Thanks for that.
posted by TwoStride at 4:43 PM on August 25, 2023 [11 favorites]

Trump's mugshot reminds me most of the red bird that is the face of Angry Birds. So I'm thinking Angry Jail Birds.
posted by effluvia at 5:16 PM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

Was thinking in the shower "I'm sure someone took TFG's booking number and grabbed P01135809.com", and sure enough.
posted by JoeZydeco

Down the bottom of that page is an innocuous link symbol that takes you to:

joebiden.com

:-)

---------

I have been obese (BMI > 30), and have had to work hard for years to get it under control (BMI currently 26.5).

I have no problem with calling the orange blob out on his lies about his weight. Because it is not about his weight, it is about his endless unrepentant lies.

Same as for his height, wealth, golf scores, etc.

It is the lying that is the issue, not the subject of the lies. It is not fat shaming, it is lie shaming.

Actually quite concerned that the arresting officials don't take the weight and height measurements themselves. Accuracy seems important when recording identifying details for legal purposes.
posted by Pouteria at 5:25 PM on August 25, 2023 [24 favorites]

The rapidity with which many Mefites in this thread leap to fatshaming and then defend it tells me how quickly they could judge and mock me should they meet me IRL. Thanks for that.

Their point is that they do not perceive themselves as fat-shaming, and honestly I don't think it's an entirely unreasonable point. Were the sheriff to list something that seems to be a reasonable expectation of his actual weight, I suspect we wouldn't see all that much comment on it here.

This will be my one and only comment in this thread on this topic. I simply think that "leap to fatshaming and defend it" is an inaccurate, and frankly bordering on bad faith, description of what's going on here.
posted by Flunkie at 5:57 PM on August 25, 2023 [17 favorites]

Wrap it up with the fat shaming comments and metacomments please. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:45 PM on August 25, 2023 [16 favorites]

So I'm wondering, like we've had one person flip already. Now we've had hordes turn themselves in to be booked, but that doesn't mean they're locked in, right? We could have many more people deciding this isn't worth it by the time this gets to the first trial at the end of October. At least that's my hope.
posted by hippybear at 7:03 PM on August 25, 2023

So I'm wondering, like we've had one person flip already. Now we've had hordes turn themselves in to be booked, but that doesn't mean they're locked in, right? We could have many more people deciding this isn't worth it by the time this gets to the first trial at the end of October. At least that's my hope.

Who are you referring to as having flipped? In all likelihood a bunch of people have (pre-indictments), but are you talking about one of the nineteen who have just been indicted?

Anyway, as to your question: I'm no lawyer, but yeah, I'm pretty sure that nothing says that once you've been booked, you've lost your chance at a plea deal.
posted by Flunkie at 7:44 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

The Cheese is the only one who has tested those waters so far. Given that he seems to be one of the main architects of the coup, that would be a weird plea for the prosecutors to take. That's a lot of flipping.
posted by Windopaene at 7:49 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

Chesebro is known to be trying to get a plea deal? I thought he was just known to have demanded a speedy trial.
posted by Flunkie at 8:04 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

No. But yes, he asked for a speedy trial. Which TFG and the others certainly don't want. So that suggests something is up. Either he is going to flip, or he is the sacrificial lamb taking yet another one for TFG. Occam's Razor says he is trying to flip, because he realizes how fucked he is.

Or he's just being the patsy.
posted by Windopaene at 8:21 PM on August 25, 2023

Oh sorry, I'm getting my indictments confused. I can't imagine why.

I'm thinking of Yuscil Taveras who fired his Trump-funded lawyer and got a new lawyer and retraced his previous testimony and flipped. That's in the Mar-a-Lago documents case.
posted by hippybear at 8:21 PM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]

I think Occam's Razor more likely says that if he wanted a plea deal, he would be offering testimony in return for a plea deal.
posted by Flunkie at 8:26 PM on August 25, 2023 [4 favorites]

Certainly correct. Other than being a test case, (and there are certainly reasons for TFG to want a test case), why would he attempt to separate his case? If it was your idea, which it seems to have been, why would you want to be the test case? How does that help your situation?

I am so very glad I will never be in this situation.

Vote #1 Windopaene!
posted by Windopaene at 8:35 PM on August 25, 2023

As I said earlier, if I were one of Trump's co-defendants, I would be aching to get my case separated from his. I suspect that in such a case, with 19 defendants one of whom is absurdly higher profile than the other 18, if the prosecution has the goods -- which it sure seems they do -- then there might be a tendency for a jury to lean at least a bit towards "He's obviously guilty; these fuckers are guilty."

I would prefer to take my chances on my own trial, wherein the jury will presumably take my particular case into account more directly and with better attention to it specifically. And I would guess that Chesebro thinks that his particular case is significantly stronger than Trump's.

I'm no lawyer, and I have no idea if this would be wise or not. But Chesebro is, and by all accounts he's a sharp one.
posted by Flunkie at 8:45 PM on August 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

Sidney Powell asks for speedy trial in Georgia election interference case
posted by kirkaracha at 9:29 PM on August 25, 2023 [6 favorites]

You can certainly change your plea post arraignment, let alone post booking. That’s how it usually works.

Yes, The Cheese is is forcing everyone’s hand, having calculated its to his advantage. Hope they brought their own typewriters.

AFAIK he hasn’t moved to sever. His move is dragging everyone towards the sawblade. The others will have to do that, that’s part of the maneuver.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:33 PM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]

And on the West Coast, the California Bar judge overseeing John Eastman's disbarment has ruled that Eastman knew he could be indicted and still waived his right to self-incrimination, so no, there will be no delaying his disbarment hearing.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:48 PM on August 25, 2023 [13 favorites]

Sidney Powell asks for speedy trial in Georgia election interference case

Which suggests to me that Team Trump thinks The Cheese is going to flip and they need someone else out in front.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:53 PM on August 25, 2023 [5 favorites]

> hippybear: I'm thinking of Yuscil Taveras who fired his Trump-funded lawyer and got a new lawyer and retraced his previous testimony and flipped. That's in the Mar-a-Lago documents case."

There's one other case that's in the same vicinity: Mark Meadows. It's not known exactly what's going on, but he was very likely not one of the un-named co-conspirators in Jack Smith's Jan. 6th case (the DC indictment). Everyone was kinda thinking that there's no way Meadows's hands were that clean, so he must have cut a deal with Smith. It's certainly not proof of any kind, I don't think, that Meadows flipped but it was kind of a notable omission. The thing is, if he did flip in that case, what's he doing in this case? If he didn't flip in the DC case, then is there a good reason why he wasn't one of the un-named co-conspirators?
posted by mhum at 10:13 PM on August 25, 2023 [6 favorites]

One thing the "speedy trial" does is, "Minimize Legal Expenses". This is a feature when you don't have the unlimited army of "Greater Fools" to keep refilling the "Campaign Fund", which is keeping the lawyers fed during the long trial.

That was explicitly brought up by Eastman's lawyer, about why he wants a faster trial.

I'm not a legal expert, but my feeling is that if I was in their position, I'd want to get my case as much separated from Trump and the herd of other defendants as possible, either in the hope of some kind of plea or sentence reduction, or simply on the theory that I personally have a number of factors that might mitigate my case, but that would get drowned out in a sea of criminality in a group trial.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:40 AM on August 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

I think that you would like to get as far away as possible from the January 6 insurrection and the violence involved.
Claim you were only exploring a legal theory.. The independent state legislature theory.
Just expressing an opinion.
posted by yyz at 7:21 AM on August 26, 2023

To be fair to him, coups are only illegal if they're unsuccessful.
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:43 AM on August 26, 2023 [12 favorites]

Can someone who knows more about the economics of the rich and powerful explain the part where Trump went to a bailbondsman to get the bail instead of just putting the cash down himself?

Is that like, normal? I mean, poor people go to bailbondsmen for the same reason they go to any loan shark: they can't pay so they have to make themselves even poorer by paying some parasite a cut.

But what's the advantage for someone like Trump, assuming he actually did have $200,000 around to pay the bail with himself wouldn't that be a better economic decision than paying somewhere between $2,000 and $4,000 to a parasite scumbag bondsman? Not that, in theory, for a guy like Trump $2,000 to $4,000 is really a big bite, but still.

Was this a sort of "Trump is like you and me" calculated PR move to show he's like all the little MAGA worshipers who also use bondsmen? Or is he really so damn broke he could only front $20,000 and doesn't actually have $200,000 in cash?
posted by sotonohito at 8:30 AM on August 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

My best theory is he can stiff the bail bondsman down the line. *shrug*
posted by mazola at 8:33 AM on August 26, 2023 [11 favorites]

Can someone who knows more about the economics of the rich and powerful explain the part where Trump went to a bailbondsman to get the bail instead of just putting the cash down himself?

The explanation I saw was that it was faster. Most others did the Fulton County "10 percent program," where they paid the county 10%, but that meant a much longer stay for the paperwork, as would simply paying it all in cash. His goal was getting in and out fast.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:34 AM on August 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

I would guess that he did not pay the bondsman any money. I would guess that he told the bondsman, “You get to be known as the guy who bonded me out. You will have more business than you will know what to do with for the rest of your life. I’m rich. I could just post the bond. But I will do you this favor to help your business. Here is how you donate to my campaign and my PACs.”

This way he has to pay zero dollars for bond, and he probably ends up netting some money off the deal. It wouldn’t surprise me if the campaign/PAC donation was actually done first.
posted by flarbuse at 9:47 AM on August 26, 2023 [10 favorites]

> But what's the advantage for someone like Trump, assuming he actually did have $200,000 around to pay the bail with himself wouldn't that be a better economic decision than paying somewhere between $2,000 and $4,000 to a parasite scumbag bondsman? Not that, in theory, for a guy like Trump $2,000 to $4,000 is really a big bite, but still.

Trumps relationship with money remains a complete mystery to me. Like obviously he's not poor, and he's also not a multibillionaire, but he's definitely still rich. I assume he doesn't have a lot of liquidity that isn't campaign money right now, although why can't you put up your bail with campaign cash, since going to jail would definitely hurt your ability to campaign. He's a monetary mystery, really. One day maybe we'll know.
posted by dis_integration at 10:29 AM on August 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

When Trump "sold" Mar-a-Lago last week (for $422 million), I'd wondered if it was to keep it from creditors or clear of an upcoming divorce proceeding. But: Zillow amends 'incorrect' listing amid Mar-a-Lago sale rumors. "The 58-bedroom, 33-bathroom estate is in the spotlight as rumors swirl that the property was sold or transferred to a company owned by Trump's son, Donald Jr."
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:12 AM on August 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

33 bathrooms!? That's a lot of places to stash stolen top secret files. As for the photo, he did what he did to get the most flattering picture. There was money to be made, after all.
posted by y2karl at 11:42 AM on August 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

It does seem significant that DT is handing over Mar-a-Lago to Jr. But I can't figure out exactly how. Probably because I'm not entirely into how crooked people move their assets around.
But maybe it is a mistake that the DOJ is not looking at the Trump children when it comes to crimes.
posted by mumimor at 12:29 PM on August 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

The Trump spawn are only committing financial crime.

My best theory is he can stiff the bail bondsman down the line. *shrug*

It's not Billy Bob's piano tuning. You stiff a bailsbonds and you go to jail.
posted by Mitheral at 1:34 PM on August 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

Like seriously. Bounty hunters exist for real.
posted by hippybear at 1:45 PM on August 26, 2023

Yeah... I don't think the Secret Service will let Dog the Bounty Hunter into Mar-a-Lago, no matter who owns it.
posted by Horkus at 1:48 PM on August 26, 2023 [5 favorites]

The Trump spawn are only committing financial crime.

That seems at least probably true to me, but I feel that we shouldn't completely discount the possibility of something like "Junior, prove yourself by shoving this top secret document behind your washing machine."
posted by Flunkie at 2:05 PM on August 26, 2023

I am genuinely surprised that Mar-a-Lago does not have 58 bathrooms or more.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:11 PM on August 26, 2023 [3 favorites]

Yeah... I don't think the Secret Service will let Dog the Bounty Hunter into Mar-a-Lago, no matter who owns it.

No need. Just inform the SS that there's been a change of primary residence.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:56 PM on August 26, 2023 [1 favorite]

He’s transferring his assets so the courts can’t seize them and he can plead poverty rather than paying fines. Up next, bankruptcy.
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:59 AM on August 27, 2023 [8 favorites]

So here’s another fun development: Georgia Republicans are attempting to use a new state law to remove Fani Willis from office before the trial.
posted by Mchelly at 9:52 AM on August 27, 2023 [2 favorites]

Lock Him Up? A New Poll Has Some Bad News for Trump [Politico, link to actual poll in article]
posted by hippybear at 11:14 AM on August 27, 2023 [6 favorites]

mygothlaundry Pretty sure that if the law is actually applied that's just fraud and the courts won't accept it.

Of course, that depends on the law being followed.
posted by sotonohito at 12:51 PM on August 27, 2023 [1 favorite]

... I don't think the Secret Service will let Dog the Bounty Hunter into Mar-a-Lago, no matter who owns it.

Not until they can separate him from the Proxima Centaurian life form that has colonized his scalp.
posted by y2karl at 2:21 PM on August 27, 2023 [2 favorites]

It could be that by selling Mar-a-Lago it establishes a current market value that can be documented. Real estate assets are listed on the balance sheet of businesses at the price they paid for it. Ford still carries the Dearborn property at the price Henry paid for it.

Now if they need to use it as collateral for a loan they have an established current value. It's not like there are a lot comps in the area for an appraiser to use.

Could also be that Jr.'s company needs to show a legitimate source of revenue to launder some ill gotten gains or misappropriating PAC money or something.

Or a combination of any of the things speculated here thus far. :)
posted by VTX at 4:16 PM on August 27, 2023 [2 favorites]

Ford still carries the Dearborn property at the price Henry paid for it.

I don't know about the second part of the statement but, if its the same property the first part was superseded about 10 months ago; Ford sells Dearborn office building to developer eyeing mixed-use plans
posted by achrise at 4:32 PM on August 27, 2023

"The judge overseeing former President Donald Trump’s election interference case in federal court set a trial date for March 4, 2024."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:12 AM on August 28, 2023 [12 favorites]

That’s the day before Super Tuesday and in the middle of the Republican primaries. I very much hope that is bad news for the Republicans in general and especially bad news for that fucking guy.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:52 AM on August 28, 2023 [2 favorites]

Why did she say that a January start date was unacceptable? Speedy trial yes?
posted by sotonohito at 12:22 PM on August 28, 2023

Less than 6 months away, maybe? 6 months is a typical court stretch between complicated things.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:27 PM on August 28, 2023

Per Judge Chutkan, in refusing the 2026 date: “To try this case five years later risks that witnesses become unavailable or that memories will fade ... the public has a right to a prompt and efficient resolution of this matter,” she said, adding later that Mr. Trump has “a team of zealous, experienced attorneys” and the resources necessary to mount a defense.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:47 PM on August 28, 2023 [5 favorites]

That last phrase, "the resources necessary to mount a defense," is intriguing.
posted by Gelatin at 1:13 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

Plenty of Federal criminal defendants go to trial with much less. (Or, nothing.) The patently fraudulent conveyance of Mar-o-Lago aside, Trump has other assets and income.

And he can't afford to bankrupt himself mid-campaign. Not financially, but aesthetically. He can be King Midas, but he can't cast off the crown for sackcloth and a wheelchair yet.

Going to trial before the election is a disaster for him. They will do anything to prevent it; any insane theory to generate as many interlocutory (immediate) appeals as possible.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:01 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

Heather Cox Richardson, Letters from an American: Before she set the date, Chutkan said, she conferred with New York state judge Juan Merchan, who is set to preside over Trump’s trial for campaign violations when he paid hush money to an adult film actress to cover up an affair. That case is scheduled to start on March 25. Trump’s federal trial for his theft of national security documents and hiding them at Mar-a-Lago is currently scheduled to begin in May 2024.

The trial date on racketeering charges in Georgia for a conspiracy to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election has not been set yet, but today the arraignment for all 19 defendants was set for September 6, 2023.

In the midst of all these court dates, Judge Chutkan’s establishment of March 4 for the federal trial over Trump’s attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election means that Trump-appointed federal judge Aileen Cannon, who is overseeing the Mar-a-Lago documents trial and who seems eager to protect the former president, will have far less power to shape public perceptions of the cases against Trump. Los Angeles Times legal affairs columnist Harry Litman noted: “This is the centerpiece now of accountability for Trump, which is as it should be.”
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:40 PM on August 28, 2023 [8 favorites]

I think that Trump will try to trade his endorsement of a Republican candidate for President for some kind of promise of a pardon / DOJ help in the state cases. Michigan and Arizona are probably going to charge him in the fake electors scheme. The reality of 4-6 criminal trials is going to sink in soon and he’s going to be wanting to use what leverage he has while he’s got it.
posted by interogative mood at 1:55 AM on August 29, 2023 [6 favorites]

Mark Meadows testifies in GA court for four hours trying to convince the judge to remove to Federal court, the argument being he was operating under color of his job.

“Having open questions [about the election] continued to be a roadblock for initiating other plans,” Meadows testified. He added: “I just needed to land the plane.”
....
Under questioning from his own attorney, Meadows repeatedly described the post-election atmosphere at the White House as chaotic. He testified that because he was viewed as someone who had “the ear of the president,” he received a deluge of phone calls and emails, including from those raising questions about the outcome of the 2020 election.

“It felt like my phone number was plastered on every bathroom wall in America,” Meadows said of the calls.

For a good crime, call 555-MEADOWS
posted by Room 101 at 5:22 AM on August 29, 2023 [14 favorites]

he received a deluge of phone calls and emails, including from those raising questions about the outcome of the 2020 election.

Like from the wife of a sitting Supreme Court Justice...
posted by trig at 6:40 AM on August 29, 2023 [7 favorites]

interogative mood bold of you to assume Trump won't be the nominee.

I'm not even sure I can see him doing that if, somehow, he loses the primary. More likely he'd declare that the primary was rigged and run independently.
posted by sotonohito at 7:13 AM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

More likely he'd declare that the primary was rigged and run independently.

Possibly the best outcome as it would utterly decimate the current conservative movement for a generation.
posted by hippybear at 7:20 AM on August 29, 2023 [18 favorites]

Look at the calendar

- New York Civil Fraud Trial October 23

- Georgia Fake Electors Criminal Trial (co-defendants going to trial October 23, possibly Trump as well)

- Jean Carroll Defamation Civil Trial (he already lost on other statements) January 15th

- January 6th Felony Case March 4th

- New York Stormy Daniel’s Felony case March 25th

- Classified Documents Case May 20th

From October 2023- to at least June 2024 he’s going to be going from courtroom to courtroom. The state cases and civil cases will likely be televised. That is going to require an army of lawyers and their retainers and he has to pay most of that up front because he doesn’t pay his bills.

His lawyers will constantly remind him that anything he says can be used against him at trial. The pressure is already getting to him.

I’ll go out on the limb and say I bet he’s out of the race by early December at the latest.
posted by interogative mood at 8:29 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]

At work I live in a maze of twisty passages all alike and my room changes every three weeks (think of a hotel with 4500 rooms and every hallway is exactly the same). I've got to take a picture every check in as a reference. I wonder if TFG is going to get confused after a while about which case he's sitting in court for and what state he is in. Though I'm guessing court rooms have state flags hanging some place as a clue?
posted by Mitheral at 8:31 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]

> I’ll go out on the limb and say I bet he’s out of the race by early December at the latest.

I mean maybe that's a reasonable prediction for the future but my basic post-2016 assumption is that Trump will somehow emerge victorious. This is maybe a trauma-informed expectation, but it will ensure that the underwhelming case of a 2nd biden term will be greeted with joy.
posted by dis_integration at 8:44 AM on August 29, 2023 [12 favorites]

News channels are going to have an easy time for a while too. Just about every day they'll be able to fill some air time with, "The latest in Trump's criminal case...."

Then all the talking heads will talk about what it means, they'll call up expert lawyers for their perspective. On and on every time there's something new in any of those cases.

I'm still with you, dis_integration, I hope it means disaster for TFG and the GOP along with him but I'm totally prepared for that dipshit to win anyways.
posted by VTX at 8:52 AM on August 29, 2023

Have people seen the state of the GOP ? All "normal" conservatives left the party. Trump is going to be the nominee.
posted by Pendragon at 9:53 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]

Baring force majeure. Everything else is basically GOP fan-fic.
posted by Artw at 10:41 AM on August 29, 2023

I’ll go out on the limb and say I bet he’s out of the race by early December at the latest.

I think it's far more likely that he'd do something legitimately unhinged that triggers some kind of serious fallout; something like the bullshit he was pulling on January 6th, only this time he doesn't stay just this side of legal and does a straightforward call-to-arms that sends the serious Trumpists out to start riots in several states.

He wouldn't ever drop out - but he would get careless and say what he really wants to say, and his followers will listen.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:51 AM on August 29, 2023 [9 favorites]

My money is on him causing a crisis by repeatedly violating bond conditions in an escalating manner and basically saying “what are you going to do about it?”.
posted by Artw at 11:42 AM on August 29, 2023 [16 favorites]

a straightforward call-to-arms that sends the serious Trumpists out to start riots in several states.

I do not think this is nearly the risk it was four years ago. Trump is out of power and no longer "the winning team." Many of the true believers have already been arrested, and the arrests have caused the believe-some-of-it-but-not-enough-to-go-to-prison-for-no-reason crowd to get a bit gun-shy. Trump has already made some demands for mass resistance it hasn't really panned out. He's a diminished figure, and 2023 isn't the same as 2020. If he does proclaim that it's all a cheat, there will be plenty of Republicans that will agree with him and grouse about it, but very few will do anything about it.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:31 PM on August 29, 2023 [9 favorites]

Former Trump lawyer Sidney Powell enters not guilty plea in Georgia election interference case
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:34 PM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]

Many of the true believers have already been arrested, and the arrests have caused the believe-some-of-it-but-not-enough-to-go-to-prison-for-no-reason crowd to get a bit gun-shy. Trump has already made some demands for mass resistance it hasn't really panned out. He's a diminished figure, and 2023 isn't the same as 2020. If he does proclaim that it's all a cheat, there will be plenty of Republicans that will agree with him and grouse about it, but very few will do anything about it.

He's made some demands for mass resistance, but he's always stayed juuuuuuuuuust this side of outright fomenting of rebellion. And the "we believe some of this stuff, but no thanks to prison" crowd may be gunshy, but there are still more of the "Trump Is Our God" guys out there that have me spooked.

At any rate, I think that this is still nevertheless a more likely outcome than Trump admitting he lost and dropping out of the race.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:43 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

There are more of us than there are the lunatics. The question is, can enough of them be gathered together in one place to make a difference?

My suspicion is that now there are eyes on them doing that again will be much harder on them.
posted by Artw at 12:51 PM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]

Lone wolf terrorism is one thing, but most only want to advance if the law is already on their side and they fear no consequences.

Obviously, none of this holds if Trump or another like him gains official power.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:55 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

Jack Smith’s Team Grilled Witnesses About Rudy Giuliani’s Drinking (Rolling Stone) "The special counsel’s interest in Rudy’s drinking could play a role in undermining one of Trump’s key legal defenses."

At Yahoo News: Special counsel Jack Smith's team of prosecutors has repeatedly questioned witnesses about former Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani's drinking habits on and after election day in 2020 as part of an effort to discern if the former president was taking legal advice from a potentially intoxicated personal lawyer, according to a report from Rolling Stone. The special counsel's team also inquired as to whether Trump ever spoke with them about Giuliani's drinking habits and if Trump ever stated that he felt Giuliani's alcohol consumption altered his judgment or decision-making ability. Additionally, Smith's investigators wanted to know if Trump was ever warned about Giuliani's reported drinking problem, and if was ever told the attorney was feeding him advice legal and political advice following the election while drinking.

Rolling Stone reported that according to lawyers and witnesses who have been in the presence of the special counsel's investigating team, Smith is keen on determining Giuliani's drinking habits because it could help show that Trump was actively employing counsel from someone he knew to be intoxicated. Proving this would bolster prosecutors' argument that the former president was acting recklessly as he tried to undo the legitimate results of the election, an argument that, if used in court, could also erode Trump's "advice of counsel" defense.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:58 PM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]

Advice of counsel (warning: self-playing audio).
posted by mazola at 1:13 PM on August 29, 2023

There are more of us than there are the lunatics.

The likelihood of lunatics to be armed is a lot higher though.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:26 PM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]

And more cops are lunatics than not.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:35 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

Jack Smith’s Team Grilled Witnesses About Rudy Giuliani’s Drinking

♪♬ Day drinking and I'm thinking of coup ♬♪
posted by kirkaracha at 3:37 PM on August 29, 2023 [8 favorites]

The degree to which being armed helps them is highly situational though, and the ability of their cop allys to assist them and ignore that they are armed is situational as well.
posted by Artw at 3:38 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

Iris Gambol: Special counsel Jack Smith's team of prosecutors has repeatedly questioned witnesses about former Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani's drinking habits on and after election day in 2020 as part of an effort to discern if the former president was taking legal advice from a potentially intoxicated personal lawyer, according to a report from Rolling Stone.

I seem to recall TFG making a very weaselly on-camera statement, I think in response to a direct question (?) to the effect: "It is not in my recollection that Rudy Giuliani was ever obviously intoxicated in my presence."

I remember being struck by the cover-your-ass peculiarity of his language & being (genuinely) surprised that TFG had now obviously outed Giuliani's drinking problem by his stupidly convoluted denial. (That RG might have a drinking problem had simply never occurred to me.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 3:39 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

Now you know why he has to lie down to tuck his shirt in.
posted by y2karl at 3:53 PM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]

Possibly the best outcome as it would utterly decimate the current conservative movement for a generation.

Conservatives own the federal courts and the federal legislature via filibuster. They own state governments with supermajorities or majorities obtained via gerrymandering.

In some cases, this has been found illegal and conservatives have basically said, fuck it, we're doing it anyway, what are you going to do about it. And the answer from the left has been to tut-tut and do nothing.

In a lot of important ways, Trump and Trump voters already won for this and maybe several more generations to come, if enough of humanity survives climate changes already underway.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:56 PM on August 29, 2023 [13 favorites]

CBS: Judge rules for Georgia election workers in defamation suit against Rudy Giuliani over 2020 election falsehoods

The two sides must propose three dates between November and February for a trial to determine the amount of damages, if any, Giuliani owes to Freeman and Moss as a result of his defamation and intentional infliction of emotional distress, according to the order. [Judge] Howell wrote that as a sanction for Giuliani's failure to reimburse the $89,000 in attorneys' fees by July 25, the jury may be instructed to "infer that he is intentionally trying to hide relevant discovery about his financial assets for the purpose of artificially deflating his net worth" when determining the amount to award Freeman and Moss.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:05 AM on August 30, 2023 [18 favorites]

Giuliani, hiding assets? "On a late-spring day in 2001, Rudy Giuliani's divorce lawyer stood on the steps of the New York State Supreme Court Building and told reporters the shocking truth. His client, the mayor of the city — beleaguered by an angry wife who wanted more money — had only $7,000 to his name…" (Vanity Fair, January 2008 via David Swanson's theswordandthesandwich substack)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:21 AM on August 30, 2023 [8 favorites]

Trump cited the ‘Scottsboro Boys’ case when he asked for a 2026 trial. .... moments before US District Judge Tanya Chutkan scheduled the trial for March 2024 during a hearing Monday, she made her distaste for the comparison clear, taking the former president’s attorneys to task for quoting from the “profoundly different” case to try to hold off on going to trial next year.

The judge pointed out how different the facts are between a case concerning Trump’s efforts to cling to power following his 2020 election loss and one of the most high-profile race cases of the 20th century, in which nine Black youths were falsely accused of raping two White women on a train near Scottsboro, Alabama. The group were put through extremely fast trials that ended with death sentences for most of them that were all later reversed.

“Quoting the case, the defense argues that scheduling a too speedy trial is ‘not to proceed promptly in the calm spirit of regulated justice but to go forward with the haste of the mob,’” Chutkan said Monday, referring to the 1932 Supreme Court opinion in Powell v. Alabama.

“This timeline does not move the case forward with the haste of the mob,” Chutkan said. “The trial will start three years, one month, and 27 days after the events of January 6, 2021.”

posted by Iris Gambol at 10:35 AM on August 30, 2023 [18 favorites]

One Last Time
These days I'm thinking a lot about the hope many of us felt just a decade ago. I know a lot of us also felt defeated when Trump won. And Brexit happened over here on the other side of the Atlantic. And in my little country the hard right had a huge victory, that ironically led to a Social Democratic government because parliamentary systems can lead to unexpected situations.

Right now, at my job, which is what I get paid for doing, I'm trying to figure out a vision for the future that will inspire and engage folks. It is a make or break situation. How do I do this?
posted by mumimor at 1:47 PM on August 30, 2023 [8 favorites]

Jonathan V. Last at The Bulwark, 2024 Is America’s Kobayashi Maru:

A couple weeks ago I sketched out a number of scenarios for 2024:
(1) A jury finds Trump guilty in the months before the general election. Trump’s support falls dramatically. Biden wins a safe re-election.
(1a) A jury finds Trump not guilty, Biden wins safely.

(2) A jury finds Trump guilty before the general election and even so, Trump wins a clean victory over Biden.
(2a) Trump is found not guilty and wins a clean election.

(3) Trump is found guilty, but the election results are contested as they were in 2020.
(3b) Trump is found not guilty, with contested results.
Of these six scenarios, all but one—Trump guilty/Biden safe win—lead to crisis.

And even that one outcome would be fraught. You saw how Republican voters and elites behaved in the aftermath of 2020. Do you think that if Trump is convicted and then loses the election these same people will say,
Well, daggum it. I guess the jury has spoken and people didn’t like us running a convict. We’ll have to try something else.
Because I do not. Instead, these people will think,
Thank God Jack Smith and Biden took care of Trump for us. Now we can complain about how unfair and corrupt they were without losing any of the MAGA mouthbreathers while we pivot to Youngkinism.
And that’s the best outcome for the best-case scenario.

posted by kirkaracha at 1:54 PM on August 30, 2023 [3 favorites]

I don't really want to deal with it, but reality is that Biden can only win against Trump. Any younger and brighter Republican candidate except de Santis will win against Biden. I don't want that to happen, but it is a real thing if Trump is convicted and jailed before Super Tuesday. (So it is literally absurd for the Republicans to imagine the trials are political persecution, Team Biden needs Trump to be the Republican candidate and they must know that. And if they don't, they deserve to loose).
posted by mumimor at 2:05 PM on August 30, 2023 [3 favorites]

From your lips to God's ears.
posted by y2karl at 2:15 PM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

Atlanta updates:
Judge rules Giuliani liable for defaming Georgia election workers
The only defendant in the Georgia election indictment to spend time in jail is released on bond (yes, it's the Black guy)

They've also announced that the special grand jury report, including all testimony and their charge recommendations, will be released on Friday. Looking forward to juicy tidbits. I haven't seen any full news stories about it, but WABE has mentioned it in their local news round up several times.

meanwhile (in the cops and prosecutors are not your friends dept): Four people held in problem-plagued Fulton jail have died over the span of a month
posted by hydropsyche at 2:20 PM on August 30, 2023 [5 favorites]

Twitter Removes Its 'No Political Ads' Policy Ahead of the 2024 Election

Of some bad shit does happen, they want to be in on it.
posted by Artw at 2:21 PM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]

Any younger and brighter Republican candidate except de Santis will win against Biden.

I am less than convinced by this. For a start they are all grifters who have not been running real campaigns, so flipping to that would be a big change. For seconds Trump is still going to be around, badmouthing then and sucking up all the money and media oxygen. For thirds probably everyone who would vote against Trump would vote against a guy who, by necessity, would be running on a platform of reversing the guilty verdict*.

* is that legally possible? Not relevant - they’ll have to promise to try or the Trump base will tear them limb from limb.
posted by Artw at 2:30 PM on August 30, 2023 [6 favorites]

Right now, at my job, which is what I get paid for doing, I'm trying to figure out a vision for the future that will inspire and engage folks. It is a make or break situation. How do I do this?

You know, it sounds weird now that I think to write it out, but one thing that gives me hope is the old Taoist parable about 'who knows what's good or bad?' For instance, in the US it's not clear if we're experiencing the renewed power and appeal of white supremacy or its last, desperate gasps, because we don't have enough historical context for our present moment to know where it's going to lead. Will our collective response reinforce and strengthen it, leading to even darker days? Or will we collectively muster the resolve to really strike back and create structural solutions that address and change the roots of that problem once and for all?

So much lies in how we respond to what happens, I think that matters as much as what actually happens in the first place. Bad things are happening, but how we react to those things to a great degree determines what impact they will have long-term. I do feel powerless (and thus maybe hopeless) when framing this question as 'how do we keep bad things from happening?' But if I reframe the question by accepting my individual powerlessness over most things that happen (good or bad) I feel less hopeless than realist, and the question becomes 'how do I best respond when bad things happen?' And answers to that question do give me hope, because lots of people actually are helpers, and want to be helpers when given an opportunity. I guess I find hope in the same place that I also find despair: all of us people.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:38 PM on August 30, 2023 [20 favorites]

They sucked his brains out!: “In a lot of important ways, Trump and Trump voters already won for this and maybe several more generations to come, if enough of humanity survives climate changes already underway.”

mumimor: “Right now, at my job, which is what I get paid for doing, I'm trying to figure out a vision for the future that will inspire and engage folks. It is a make or break situation. How do I do this?”

The way I see it, there is no future in which these people, with their 20th century visions of 19th century crackpot ideas which were misinterpretations of 17th and 18th century philosophers, are allowed to continue inflict themselves on people of goodwill. There isn't generations of time in which to undo the harm 50 years of conservative misrule in the Anglosphere has done worldwide. Therefore, the only vision worth discussion is their removal from power by any means necessary.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:44 PM on August 30, 2023 [8 favorites]

Any younger and brighter Republican candidate except de Santis will win against Biden.

I also am unconvinced by this. Until we have another election, we won't know the effect of Trump's ongoing criminal prosecutions, along with all the other stuff. Any assertions otherwise are just tossing runes about what might possibly could likely maybe happen a year or so from now, and given that we are in very unprecedented times, I don't feel confident about predicting anything a year or more out.

I know we're collectively deeply enthralled by hyper-reality at the moment, and mis/disinformation has been winning, but truth has the enormous, non-negotiable advantage of being actual and real, which is the ultimate counter to the Olympian levels of bullshit we all must currently navigate. The only opinion polls in the US with any accuracy are elections, and they also happen to be the only ones that actually matter.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:48 PM on August 30, 2023 [10 favorites]

Ramaswamy is not Obama, and Republicans are not Democrats.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:07 PM on August 30, 2023 [3 favorites]

He seems to be a pretty ordinary and unimpressive Twitter troll/Thiel acolyte.
posted by Artw at 3:13 PM on August 30, 2023 [4 favorites]

2024 Is America’s Kobayashi Maru

So... the only way to win is by hacking the computers?
posted by Flunkie at 3:30 PM on August 30, 2023 [3 favorites]

They said the same thing about Reagan in 1983 that they say about Biden in 2023. I’m hopeful for a Biden landslide.
posted by interogative mood at 3:33 PM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]

In a just world...
posted by y2karl at 3:37 PM on August 30, 2023

The most recent polling I saw said that Biden v Trump would have Biden winning the general vote by 65%. I can't remember where this was, but it was reported on by more than one outlet.
posted by hippybear at 3:51 PM on August 30, 2023 [3 favorites]

In a straight vote he’d crush it. Fucking terrible candidate, indifferent campaigner, but nobody wants trump back or the Christofascists in their bedroom.

With the electoral college it’s probably more of a knife edge 50/50 type deal.

Oh and of course it’s an “unfavorable” year for Dems in the Senate because somehow it always is.
posted by Artw at 4:03 PM on August 30, 2023 [6 favorites]

nobody wants trump back or the Christofascists in their bedroom.

At this point, at least, it seems like the GOP as a whole wants Trump back. And though it's probably true that all that many people want the Christofascists in their bedroom, it sure has always seemed to me that there are a whole lot more people who want the Christofascists in other people's bedrooms.
posted by Flunkie at 4:14 PM on August 30, 2023 [8 favorites]

They said the same thing about Reagan in 1983 that they say about Biden in 2023

There are a lot of parallels, particularly with respect to getting inflation under control. The key will be to hold off the coming economic recession until after Biden wins. If the economy starts sliding faster this year or next, he will have a very hard time winning re-election. The student loan repayment pause is ending, and people are defaulting on credit card debt in larger numbers. Wages mostly remain stagnant or otherwise have not kept pace with inflation for several years.

The same economic factors that might favor Biden at this moment could change enough to make it easier for a right-wing extremist/populist to appeal to enough of the deplorables that voted Trump in back in 2016.

Therefore, the only vision worth discussion is their removal from power by any means necessary

The key thing is to keep as many Republicans out of power as possible, before they have enough numbers to try to Reichstag the country again. We got very lucky on January 6, 2021. Our country, or our democracy, will not likely survive another Trump or Trump acolyte. The current pack of ersatz Trumps are promising to set him free, if elected, if not enact and enforce all of the same social policies, or worse, against minorities. That's even if they don't vote for him, first, which most Republicans are promising to do.

I don't know how to run on a platform that identifies Republicans as the traitors and enemies of the state that they are, but I hope it is definitely a consideration on the part of the left. We simply cannot allow Russian agents to take over the highest levels of government again.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:32 PM on August 30, 2023 [5 favorites]

I'm trying to figure out a vision for the future that will inspire and engage folks. It is a make or break situation. How do I do this?

The way I do it, for myself, is to look to major civil rights figures for inspiration. Stacey Abrams. John Lewis (gone, but never, never forgotten). Cory Booker. Rev. William Barber II.

Rev. Barber has spoken about how, with civil rights, it's always a pendulum swing - progress, then backlash, over and over. So he can be dismayed, but not discouraged, because the work is still there, and he chooses faith.

The history of civil rights in America - the history of the fight for Black rights, like other histories, like the fight for women's rights, like the fight for the return of stolen indigenous lands - is a story of insisting on a better future even in the face of crushing setbacks.

So I take inspiration from the decades it took to get women the vote; the tenacity of Stacey Abrams and Fair Fight, decades after the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, a tenacity which has not made Georgia a perfect beacon of democracy but surely helped us get two absolutely crucial (and also terrific) Democrats elected to the Senate; the steadfast efforts, however futile they might seem, of native Americans to get land returned to them, which has met with surprising and encouraging successes in the past decade - too few, and completely too little, but still: change where there had been none.

And I take encouragement from things like the outcome of the Montana climate suit a few weeks ago, and my own experience with young people from all over the country campaigning for those Georgia Senate candidates a few years ago, and the major spike in women registering to vote after the Supreme Court ripped away the right to control our own bodies, and the votes supporting abortion rights, even in red states, in the months since then.

I absolutely do not let any of this make me complacent; we will have to work HARD for every vote, we will have to keep watching for ALL the dirty tricks and pushing back constantly. And I am well aware that we don't have decades to fix any of this; things are utterly disastrous already, especially with the climate emergency.

But we can't know what will happen. We can only decide that a different future is worth it, and keep imagining that future, and keep doing what we can to build that future, even when other people keep burning down what we're building. Because when I do that - when I insist on the possibility of something that is not the darkest vision of the world - I become aware of other people who are also insisting on building, and of their successes, which are blips in the press if they get there at all, but are nonetheless real.

As terrifying as today's gerrymandering and attacks on voting rights are, it's important to remember things were actually worse in living (if fading) memory. We changed it once. We can change it again.

At least, we have to try.

At least, I do.
posted by kristi at 4:35 PM on August 30, 2023 [42 favorites]

At this point, at least, it seems like the GOP as a whole wants Trump back.

The GOP as a near-whole wants to win, at any cost. And as it stands today, Trump is the only Republican with even a puncher's chance at the nomination. To say otherwise, to back someone else, is an excellent way to bring a shitrain down upon yourself. Too much of the voter base is ride-or-die with Trump, and while Trump's internally-focused guns are trained squarely upon DeSantis at the moment, his spotlight only has room for one person in it. When DeSantis fades out of view and someone (probably Vivek) becomes even a small threat, he'll reload.

I say "near-whole" because the Freedom Kook-us generally approves of Trump, but only as long as he fits their agenda of dismantling 90% of the entire federal government and somehow seizing the controls to the other 10%. Margie is ride-or-die with Trump (or at least feigning it well in order to try for the veep slot), for instance, and even she wasn't crazed enough to remain in the Kook-us.

Now, a month from now, if Trump's cases take a wild turn or if Biden or Trump has a health emergency or some other factor emerges, who knows? But the current forecast is not so much Trump's The Greatest Ever, but rather Trump -- Or ELSE.
posted by delfin at 7:24 PM on August 30, 2023

Sure; I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But regardless, the functional effect is the same as it has been consistently since, what, late 2015? Early 2016? The GOP, when considered as a whole, is for Trump. That some of them are only that way because of their own inability to overcome their own moral cowardice isn't really all that important, at least not in an in-the-current-moment sense.

Maybe it will become relevant later, but I, for one, have been waiting for it to become relevant for a long time, during which the GOP has had many opportunities to make it relevant... but has only doubled and redoubled at every opportunity.
posted by Flunkie at 7:40 PM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]

I may be just expressing my own bias here, but I think what causes inspiration are aspirations to great success.

MLK and Malcolm X were advocating for nothing less than completely overturning the racial paradigm that had existed in the USA since its inception. That's not thinking small.

Trying to organize people to feel optimistic and hopeful about tiny little administrative incremental changes when all it takes is a glance around to see that things are really deeply fucked up isn't going to work.

Yes, we do in fact need to change subparagraph 16 of section B of USC who gives a shit to have a comma. No, that's not going to get people fired up.

Shit, look at Trump. He's a horrible person promoting a malicious and evil set of policies, but he wasn't out there talking about small things and incrementalism. He was popular because he promised revolutionary change and huge sweeping alterations to the structure of American laws and society. It was change in a direction I utterly oppose, but you can't accuse Trump of talking small.

What he actually did, of course, was not actually very revolutionary or sweeping at all, but he talked a great game of massive change.

What'd get me really fired up is someone talking about taxing billionaires until they aren't billionaires, forcibly converting every American petrochem corporation into a charitable non-profit with 100% of the former profit going to green energy projects and at least 1/3 of that going to green energy projects in impovrished nations. Get me someone talking about emptying the prisons, ending the war on drugs entirely, and switching law enforcement towards white collar crime and I'll be ready to go to the barricades for that person.

Give me Joe Biden reassuring his billionaire buddies that nothing will fundamentally change and, well, I vote no matter what but I damn sure don't like voting for him.

What inspires people are goals that are actually inspirational rather than just a defense of the status quo with a tiny little change.
posted by sotonohito at 4:51 AM on August 31, 2023 [19 favorites]

> "What'd get me really fired up..."

I mean, same, but we're not the only people who vote, and left-wing populists aren't winning presidential primaries. If big inspirational ideas were the real secret, they would be.

And until they do, I will be *enthusiastically* voting for the at-least-we're-not-actively-evil party.
posted by kyrademon at 8:27 AM on August 31, 2023 [4 favorites]

The question was not "should people vote for soulless and cruel Democratic bores because the Repubicans are worse" The answer to that question is, yes of course they should.

The question was from someone who was tasked with trying to get people engaged and enthusiastic.

Engaged and enthusiastic is different from terrorized.

We have big, possibly civilization ending, problems today. People, especially younger people, often feel disengaged and hopeless becasue there are these big, huge, problems and no one is taking them seriously and talking about actually fixing things. Instead we get the tiniest of baby steps done in the most droning, boring, and tedious manner possible.

Talk about actually FIXING problems and you get people seriously, really, engaged.

As Trump did.

Most of the problems Trump identified were just repakcaged bigotry, all of the solutions he proposed were some combination of bigoted, evil, impossible, stupid, or just nuts.

But he got the attention of the white racists becuse he was up there talking big things and big solutions.

The world is shit. Everyone can see that. Talking about actually fixing it and the dramatic changes that will require will engage people. Telling people it doesn't really stink so much and that if they're pathetic loser whiners then maybe we can give you a bit of perfume doesn't enthuse anyone.
posted by sotonohito at 9:16 AM on August 31, 2023 [7 favorites]

I'll also add that I mentioned what would get me fired up becuase I know myself pretty well.

But ANY big sweeping sort of aspirational proposal will tend to get people engaged and enthusiastic.

JFK challenged Amrica to put a person on the moon in 10 years, now there's a big enthusiasm grabber. Aspirational, challenging, revolutionary, it ticks all the boxes.
posted by sotonohito at 9:20 AM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]

A lot of Trumps shine worked for people outside the GOP crazies, for various stupid reasons that are largely unfathomable to me, like they thought he was fun and a person who’d shake things up in ways that challenged the status quo arhat WEREN’T just reinforcing the fascist bits off it. All the “liberal” media attempts to make him a normal business candidate. Stupid stuff.

None of that’s really workable now. It probably really is just the GOP crazies.
posted by Artw at 9:27 AM on August 31, 2023 [4 favorites]

Trump pled not guilty in Georgia; meanwhile election officials in key battleground states are studying whether 14th Amendment disqualifies ‘insurrectionist’ Trump from ballot (CNN)
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:45 AM on August 31, 2023 [8 favorites]

I was talking to my 17 year old son and he flatly refused to believe it was possible for Trump to run again after stealing classified documents. He said there was no possible way he could run and I clearly had no idea what I was talking about.

I really hope it turns out he's right. Because he's right that it SHOULDN'T be possible.
posted by sotonohito at 9:59 AM on August 31, 2023 [4 favorites]

I really hope it turns out he's right. Because he's right that it SHOULDN'T be possible.

America has an Air Bud problem; it turns out there is nothing in the rules that says a dog can’t play basketball, or that you can’t steal classified documents and run for President.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:23 AM on August 31, 2023 [11 favorites]

Only if the dog is a Republican.
posted by Artw at 10:46 AM on August 31, 2023 [9 favorites]

Biden is the most consequential president since LBJ for Democrats. The IRA and his other policies are rapidly reshaping a whole slew of industries and segments of American life. If you are not enthusiastic about his continued leadership I urge you to reconsider and take a closer look at what his administration’s has accomplished.
posted by interogative mood at 10:48 AM on August 31, 2023 [24 favorites]

Now don't get me wrong - he's a lot of fun.

And there's a little bit of me that thinks fuck it, let's do it. Let's do it and see how fuckin' crazy shit can get.

posted by flabdablet at 11:02 AM on August 31, 2023 [7 favorites]

Also worth noting that in the universe where the GOP can run an alternate candidate without tearing themselves apart, none of them have that “fun” appeal outside of the base that 2016 Trump did, they just have a the fascism. So I don’t really see that working out either.

Which is not to say the election is in the bag, because it never is, but the numbers are against them and they are going to have a smaller minority of votes to leverage to victory than they did in 2016, and that’s not a thing they managed in 2020.
posted by Artw at 11:26 AM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]

Biden is the most consequential president since LBJ for Democrats.

I, for one, do not disagree. But that is not how elections work in the US.
posted by mumimor at 11:29 AM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]

interogative mood Even if I agreed with you, it wouldn't make Biden an enthusing candidate. He's got no charisma, and his agenda as he describes it in his speeches is not sweeping or inspiring.

Worse his personal style is touchy, thin skinned, snippish, mean, and spiteful towards anyone who questions him.

The man couldn't get a bunch of frat bros enthusiastic about free beer.

It's a problem the Democrats never seem to grok, they keep nominating and sometimes even electing people with anti-charisma. Al Gore. Mike Dukkakis. When the D's nominate people with decent charisma who can deliver a good speech they tend to win, see Obama and Clinton. No guarantee of course, but it works better than a boring droner or someone who comes across as spiteful and mean.

Again: the question was about enthusing and engaging people, not about whether or not Biden has or doesn't have a good agenda.

Trump had an awful agenda and he got his crowds motivated, energized, and rearing to go. Because he talked big, made promises of big sweeping changes to fix the problems everyone can see, and built excitement.

I'm not saying the Democrats need a Trump type person. Just that they need someone who isn't a contender for either most boring person in America or meanest person in America.
posted by sotonohito at 12:07 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]

And, again, terror and relief aren't enthusiasm.

Saying "damn I'm sure glad we didn't elect a Nazi" isnt' the same as saying "WOOO I AM REAaDY TO GO!@!!!!"
posted by sotonohito at 12:08 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]

Sure, it's not the same, but it's a hell of a better reason.
posted by Flunkie at 12:19 PM on August 31, 2023 [7 favorites]

The GOP fantasy candidate people have enthused about lately is a real charmer.

This new TikTok video investigates how Vivek Ramaswamy acquired the rights to a failed Alzheimer's drug very cheaply, reworked the failed trials to show improvement with help from his mother, and hyped the potential on Jim Cramer's investment show.

The IPO raised the most ever for a biotech company, and the stock skyrocketed, allowing Ramaswamy and his inner circle to cash out their shares. But when phase 3 trials were conducted, the drug flopped again, causing the stock to plummet 99% in one day.
posted by Artw at 12:23 PM on August 31, 2023 [17 favorites]

Almost literally a snake oil salesman.
posted by hippybear at 12:24 PM on August 31, 2023 [16 favorites]

Would have difficulty getting enthusiastic for Biden and the current dem leadership but in the run up to the modterm they seemed to actually wake up a bit and do some popular and good things, and hopefully this is a precursor to more of that: 10 drugs targeted for Medicare price negotiations as Biden pitches cost reductions
posted by Artw at 12:33 PM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]

The world is shit. Everyone can see that.

Well, for real: citation needed. The world is shit to “everyone” if you can’t take off your shit-colored glasses long enough to see the world in its magnificent complexity. In my actual, lived world, today has been pretty beautiful: I woke up (not dead yet, hooray!) early enough to have a relaxed walk with my dogs in our cool morning air (even though the high is in the 90s) and then my wife and I made each other laugh really hard over something goofy while we were getting ready for the day, and I’ve taught two classes so far working with curious young adults, and am about to go lead a rehearsal with a few dozen energetic young musicians. So a pretty good day, in a world that makes that possible.

So no, “the world” is not shit. Parts of the world are shit, definitely, and we have some big and scary problems that I hope we find ways to actually tackle forthrightly. But if I follow Mr. Rogers’ advice and look for the helpers, I see millions and millions of helpers, too. The world is everything, all of human experience happening all the time, and I would appreciate not being told that I must find it to be shit, because that’s what “everyone” thinks. Miserable people think that, and I hope for them some measure of future happiness and contentment so that their world doesn’t remain shit, and that they can see that it’s not, in fact, all shit for everyone all the time.
posted by LooseFilter at 1:32 PM on August 31, 2023 [25 favorites]

What kind of crazy nonsense is this crap about Biden not having charisma, being disrespectful, or lacking compassion or inspiration.

This is the same tired old Chris Matthews George W. Bush "Guys just want to have a beer with W" crap that the Republicans love to saturate the media with and sell you on. You have to stop falling for it.
posted by interogative mood at 1:59 PM on August 31, 2023 [24 favorites]

Just gonna put it out there that arguing that people HAVE to like Biden is a worthless and unproductive measure.
posted by Artw at 2:06 PM on August 31, 2023 [10 favorites]

All I'll say is that I like Biden because he is human. He displays the full range of human emotions. He has days where he's among the best of us. He has moments where he says intemperate things, though when I've seen that it has always been well deserved.

He ain't a man child, he ain't a robot, he ain't perfectly scripted, and he ain't wedded to any singular political ideology. He does what it takes to move the ball down the field. Can I imagine someone better? Sure. The problem with that is that my imagination ain't the real world. Nobody can ever measure up to that standard because it's imaginary.

Anyway, more on topic, I really hope that the Secretaries of State or other relevant officials of the several states do the right thing and refuse to put Trump on their ballots. He has openly admitted enough elements of his insurrectionist schemes that I have zero qualms about his disqualification even in the absence of further legal proceedings. It's not like the 14th Amendment requires a trial, anyway. A good faith belief that he is disqualified is sufficient to justify any official denying him a place on the ballot.
posted by wierdo at 2:19 PM on August 31, 2023 [11 favorites]

A good faith belief that he is disqualified is sufficient to justify any official denying him a place on the ballot.

So when a Republican SoS makes the "good faith" decision that the leader of the "Biden Crime Family" is disqualified, you'll be OK with that?
posted by SPrintF at 4:32 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]

Well, PBS is now running pieces on the 14th Amendment disqualification, and there are rumors that lawsuits are beginning to be filed in states to get Trump off the ballot.

So maybe this is gaining traction more than expected.
posted by hippybear at 5:39 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]

I think it is very unlikely that the Courts will disqualify someone based on an accusation and without a conviction.
posted by interogative mood at 5:46 PM on August 31, 2023

So when a Republican SoS makes the "good faith" decision that the leader of the "Biden Crime Family" is disqualified, you'll be OK with that?

It can and will be litigated, at which time a court can correct any abuse of power, so yeah, I'm fine with it. If you're not, feel free to lobby your Congresspeople and state legislatures to get a Constitutional amendment passed.

As it is, I'd prefer my elected officials abide by their oath of office and the laws against malfeasance of office, even or especially when it's hard.
posted by wierdo at 5:48 PM on August 31, 2023 [6 favorites]

I think it is very unlikely that the Courts will disqualify someone based on an accusation and without a conviction.

It isn't up to the courts to enforce. It's not even up to them to second guess unless the decision is so patently ridiculous that it rises to the level of abuse of discretion. Trump has openly admitted to the substance of the accusations against him. He just thinks he didn't do anything wrong.

If someone does disagree that Trump should be disqualified, they can ask Congress to remove his disability. They've done it for others before.
posted by wierdo at 5:53 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]

no, we're asking for nothing but trouble by proposing trump be disqualified without a conviction - a precedent is being set that a mere accusation of insurrection is enough to disqualify anyone from running for public office - so there will be a lot more bad faith accusations made

furthermore, no one will accept the next election as legitimate - "you wouldn't let our guy be on the ballot, you disenfranchised us, you stole the election" will be the cry - and without a conviction, you don't really have an answer for that

come to think of it, refusing to put a guy's name on a ballot because of unproven accusations is somewhat like trying to replace official electors with others because of unproven accusations of vote fraud - now, if the latter is insurrection, why isn't the former?

this is a can of worms that really needs not to be opened - the end game is dictatorship or something that will be considered dictatorship by a substantial proportion of the populance
posted by pyramid termite at 6:24 PM on August 31, 2023 [8 favorites]

I (not a lawyer) am not so sure that it's up to the Secretaries of State. The 14th's final section is:

The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

At the very least, it seems like someone who was removed from a ballot for insurrection/etc. who was not so removed in accordance with Federal laws regulating such removals would have a not-entirely-unreasonable-on-its-face court case they could pursue to try to force their way back onto the ballot; whoever removed them can at least plausibly be considered (at least, by a reasonable layman) to have inappropriately usurped an explicitly listed Constitutional power of Congress.

I'm not sure what the extent of actual current federal law there is regarding this; the only thing I've found so far (in my half-assed and non-lawyerly searching) is 18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection:

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

This law is not one of the ones that Trump has been charged under.
posted by Flunkie at 6:41 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]

furthermore, no one will accept the next election as legitimate

You mean none of the 35% of true MAGA within the 40% of the population that is the current Republican party?

It's not no one, but it's not everyone. And there is a lot of suggestion that a giant part of the Rs will breathe a sigh of relief if he's not their choice.

Honestly, no Trump works better for the Rs in the general, as Trump current sits with 65% of the general electorate against him.
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]

They'd "breath a sigh of relief" not just because they don't really want him as their nominee, but also because they'd now have the opportunity to portray this obviously extremely high profile event as government tyranny, in a way that would seem reasonable even to a lot of people who are not part of "the 35% of true MAGA within the 40% of the population that is the current Republican party".

Moreover, they'd be able to do so while loudly proclaiming their undying devotion to Trump, despite privately having breathed that sigh of relief.
posted by Flunkie at 6:49 PM on August 31, 2023

You mean none of the 35% of true MAGA within the 40% of the population that is the current Republican party?

and many other people who think that due process and basic fairness should be a part of our elections

we need a conviction
posted by pyramid termite at 6:56 PM on August 31, 2023

because of unproven accusations

cite ?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:13 PM on August 31, 2023

I'm really serious, I'd like to see some receipts. TFG has been caught on tape conspiring with numerous parties. I get that Trump voters and Republicans won't believe the evidence, etc etc etc, but if you told them oxygen would kill covid they would hold their breaths until they passed out. So I'm gonna need cites. We're not getting out of this mess until we all agree on the facts.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:52 PM on August 31, 2023

That's the core of the problem though, isn't it?

The right won't agree on facts because the facts are against them.
posted by sotonohito at 7:53 PM on August 31, 2023 [13 favorites]

It doesn't matter if I'm enthusiastic or not for Biden. I have to hire an employee and there are two, shitty, applicants.

I want better applicants but for that I need more people to vote so that candidates that win on turnout gain enough power to expand voting rights in a virtuous circle until there is political will to fully change to ranked choice (or basically anything other than what we have now). Fat chance of that ever describing any Republican candidate so really I just vote for whoever is more enthusiastic about voting rights in the primaries.

Some day, probably when we have some better voting system and voting my preference is the same as voting strategically, there will be candidates I get enthusiastic about. Until then I'll keep choosing the least bad of two shitty options. One of them will be hired regardless and I'd rather have my say.
posted by VTX at 8:01 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]

I know it's maybe an idiotic question, but WHY is ancient white Biden hiding Kamala under a basket? If he wins, there's a very good chance she'll be president. It's infuriating that he chose her as a running mate and then has dumped her into a well. She MAY WELL BE our next president, but his administration has done nothing to introduce/endear her to the public. Which is EXACTLY the opposite of what Obama did, to endear the populace to "Uncle Joe."
posted by cyndigo at 8:10 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]

Brian Tyler Cohen's latest video post about BREAKING: First steps taken to DISQUALIFY Trump in 2024 [9m33s]. He's no Trump friend by far, but he does detail actual legal cases being launched to get Trump off the ballot in some states.
posted by hippybear at 8:23 PM on August 31, 2023 [1 favorite]

now have the opportunity to portray this obviously extremely high profile event as government tyranny

It doesn't matter what the government does or doesn't do. To the MAGA set and a fair number of others literally anything the government does is tyrannical. Property tax: tyranny. Driver's licenses: tyranny. Zoning laws: tyranny. Laws against child labor: tyranny. Losing an election: tyranny. Prosecuting insurrectionists: tyranny.

We can't appease these people. They already claim to be political prisoners when they end up in jail for normal crimes. The Republicans have no qualms about twisting every law on the books to benefit themselves, they need no excuse. Not protecting our country using a provision of the Constitution that has been there for over a century and a half is just feckless. If anything, it proves weakness and just emboldens them to act out even more.

Trump acted to subvert the lawful exercise of government power through unlawful means, attempting to usurp the presidency for himself. That is the very definition of insurrection. Like the 13th outlawing slavery, the 14th's prohibition on insurrectionists holding office is self executing.

It's just another qualification for office. Nobody has to sue to keep someone from running for Senate in a state where they don't reside or a Representative if they don't reside in the district. The people charged with verifying eligibility look at the facts as they see them and make a decision. There is nothing that makes the requirement set out in the 14th Amendment any different, except that it allows Congress to "pardon" the person should they so choose. Most people disqualified from office after the 14th passed were not convicted of any crime whatsoever. There is no reason for it to be any different today.

Yes, there is a risk of backlash. There is also risk in doing nothing. A greater risk, in my view, but reasonable people can disagree on that point.
posted by wierdo at 9:41 PM on August 31, 2023 [13 favorites]

Yes... I wasn't saying "Let's not do this because there might be a backlash", and I wasn't saying "They will not yell about tyranny if this is not done". I was pretty much saying the opposite:

I was disputing the idea that the "35% of true MAGA within the 40% of the population that is the current Republican party" would be the only ones who would not accept the election as legitimate.

I was saying that large numbers of non-MAGA GOPs would take the opportunity to yell even if, as the person I was responding to said, they'd be breathing a sigh of relief that Trump wouldn't be the nominee.

I think that a large majority of any GOPers who would "breathe a sigh of relief" would be doing so privately, while publicly yelling "TYRANNY". Like they yell "TYRANNY" about everything. "Breathing a sigh of relief" would not stop them.
posted by Flunkie at 10:00 PM on August 31, 2023 [2 favorites]

I know it's maybe an idiotic question, but WHY is ancient white Biden hiding Kamala under a basket?

Could it be that Kamala's approval rating is not very good? Or maybe there's not a lot of natural opportunities for presiding over a more or less deadlocked senate.

Or maybe she's campaigning in places you don't look.
posted by pwnguin at 10:51 PM on August 31, 2023 [3 favorites]

Or because we only see what the media reports?
posted by susiswimmer at 1:49 AM on September 1, 2023 [7 favorites]

WHY is ancient white Biden hiding Kamala under a basket?

i know she has a small but very dedicated fan base but harris is one of the least charismatic politicians i’ve seen on the national stage in a long time, except maybe buttigieg. i was surprised when biden chose her after she ran such a disastrous campaign, failing to even make it to new hampshire, but i’m not surprised that he’s been keeping her under wraps because every high profile appearance tanks her in the polls. she’s just not a natural retail politician, and by all accounts the infighting and chaos that stopped her campaign cold has continued in the vice presidency, an office not normally known for high turnover. anyway this is my theory as to why biden doesn’t use her more: she doesn’t have the juice
posted by dis_integration at 5:04 AM on September 1, 2023 [11 favorites]

I (not a lawyer) am not so sure that it's up to the Secretaries of State.

My not-a-lawyer understanding of the idea behind it is that elections are run at the state level (even when voting for federal officials.) Federal election laws tend to be more "general rules & requirements" (voting age is 18, electors must be chosen by such and such date, etc etc) but the actual nuts and bolts of running elections happens at the state level, and the states have a lot of autonomy in exactly how that happens - including deciding the requirements for ballot eligibility.

IOW, looking at federal election laws is maybe not so useful - states are generally allowed to run elections as they see fit and according to their own state constitutions (barring egregious civil rights violations (sometimes)). So you get half a dozen states to go through whatever their process is for declaring Trump ineligible to be on the state's ballot (and the process could differ significantly from state to state), the Secretaries of State sign off on this because they're the heads of the state level government department that runs elections, and then the court battles begin over the question of how much autonomy do states really have to run their own elections.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:23 AM on September 1, 2023

I'm both fascinated and disturbed by how quickly the question "how do we get people enthused" caused an almost instinctive hackle raised defense of Biden even though he wasn't part of the question or my answer to it.

And, I'm guilty of continuing that derailment by pointing out that the Democrats really suck at getting enthuiasm generating candidates.

But Biden wasn't even part of the question and I think we'd do well to avoid him to try to find answers, becasue I think we desperately need answers. And I think it's answers, plural, not the one weird trick to engage people.

How about we try again, presuppose that this isn't an attack on Biden, and make the assumption that everyone here will be voting for a literal piece of dog shit if the Democrats nominate it because that's still better than any Republican.

So. With the assumption that regardless of enthusiasm everyone here will be voting Democratic....

How do we help create enthusiasm, engagement, and optimism in people who are unenthsiastic, disengaged, and pesimistic?

I've already put in my answer: big, sweeping, revolutionary, proposals becasue everyone can see that the world is shit and it's going to take a revolutionary change to make it less shit.

Many people seemed to think that was a bad answer, so what's other people's answers?
posted by sotonohito at 6:49 AM on September 1, 2023 [9 favorites]

I don't know that there are great answers to implement on a national level in a way that's reproducible by following some prescribed steps, it's such a big tent party that different things will enthuse different segments and it's going to come down to the natural ability and charisma of the candidates, I think. It's probably easier to tailor strategies to narrower slices of the electorate at the state or district level but you can't please everyone.

I'd say the one big down side of big, sweeping revolutionary proposals is they get people enthused once or twice but that very quickly turns into people thinking you're all a bunch of talk and no action at best, or actively conspiring to stop progress under the cover of fake progressivism at worst, when it hits a reality that prevents implementation like having both a Manchin/Sinema situation and a hyper-conservative Supreme Court weaponized solely to stop anything that doesn't advance the Republican cause. Big, sweeping revolutionary proposals seem great to get people who don't want to get bogged down in the details excited, but when the explanations for why they can't all pass involve those kinds of details, well...
posted by jason_steakums at 7:29 AM on September 1, 2023 [5 favorites]

Many people seemed to think that was a bad answer, so what's other people's answers?

My view is less an answer than an observation - you cannot build true enthusiasm from the top down - it has to be built from the ground up. You might be able to create a bubble of enthusiasm with a charismatic candidate, but that gain is illusionary - one of the big reasons that the GOP is in "ride the tiger" mode is that there's a sense of apres Trump, le deluge, that without him the GOP base becomes apathetic. And on the other side of the fence, it's been a longstanding criticism of Obama that he built no sustained grassroots organizations.

So looking for charismatic candidates not only isn't the answer, but could wind up worse in the long run. Instead, I'd argue the goal needs to be about low level engagement.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:59 AM on September 1, 2023 [6 favorites]

OK, so how do you devleop low level engagement?
posted by sotonohito at 8:48 AM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]

OK, so how do you devleop low level engagement?

That is a complicated topic, because different people are motivated by different things - there is no one thing that is going to motivate everyone (which is another issue with trying to build from the top down - you then need to be everything to everyone, and you've just set yourself up for failure.)

But I will say that a good first step is to stop feeding the disengagement engine. This means taking the "world is shit" position and tossing it in the trash - because as many people have pointed out, that sort of thing is engagement poison as it pushes people to the position that nothing matters and nothing is worth fighting for. Instead, we need to push that a difference can be made, and that we can fight for a better world.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:59 AM on September 1, 2023 [13 favorites]

I was an enthusiastic progressive until they derailed the Trump indictment thread.
posted by otsebyatina at 9:01 AM on September 1, 2023 [30 favorites]

And, I'm guilty of continuing that derailment by pointing out that the Democrats really suck at getting enthuiasm generating candidates.

I seem to remember a LOT of buzz for Bill Clinton in the 90s and Obama....true, it's not as fervent as what you see amongst Trump fans, bit that's not enthusiasm, that's obsession.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:08 AM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]

That is legitimately a cult, you do not want that.
posted by Artw at 11:13 AM on September 1, 2023 [8 favorites]

It looks like the Trump team is trying to distance themselves from the other Georgia defendants
posted by Emmy Noether at 2:01 PM on September 1, 2023 [2 favorites]

A New Rudy Scandal: FBI Agent Says Giuliani Was Co-opted by Russian Intelligence [Mother Jones].
posted by mazola at 2:56 PM on September 1, 2023 [9 favorites]

Georgia election interference case will be televised/livestreamed [CNN] (apart from any portions potentially moved to federal court).
posted by nobody at 6:14 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]

It looks like the Trump team is trying to distance themselves from the other Georgia defendants

I can sympathize, I wouldn't want to be associated with those clowns either.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:46 PM on September 1, 2023 [4 favorites]

CNN’s legal round table thinks Mark Meadows has probably sunk himself and might be facing perjury charges after his testimony in an attempt to get his case moved to Federal Court.
posted by interogative mood at 6:53 PM on September 1, 2023 [10 favorites]

It never ceases to impress me how stupid these people are.
posted by mumimor at 10:54 PM on September 1, 2023 [3 favorites]

> That was explicitly brought up by Eastman's lawyer, about why he wants a faster trial.

farnsworthgoodnewseveryone.mp4

https://www.salon.com/2023/09/01/legal-experts-john-eastman-literally-just-confessed-to-the-crime-in-fox-news-interview/

Salon: 'Legal experts: John Eastman "literally just confessed to the crime" in Fox News interview - "He’s admitting to committing federal crimes on national television," says law professor Anthony Michael Kreis':

... "What I recommended," (Eastman) added, "and I've said this repeatedly, is that he accede to requests from more than 100 state legislators in the swing states to give them a week to try and sort out the impact of what everybody acknowledged was illegality in the conduct of the election." ...

In legal circles this is known as the "Leroy Jenkins Strategy".
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:11 PM on September 1, 2023 [5 favorites]

In legal circles this is known as the "Leroy Jenkins Strategy".

I hope that at some point we get to see, preferably from TFG himself, the Shaggy Strategy.
posted by Flunkie at 11:50 PM on September 1, 2023 [1 favorite]

The strategy has ALWAYS been to crime openly and dare anyone to do anything about it.

Which has worked, till now.
posted by Artw at 12:13 AM on September 2, 2023 [20 favorites]

the Shaggy Strategy

Disappointed, on clicking the link, to find that this doesn't involve a gigantic, towering sandwich. Holding out for the large dog who may or may not be talking, though. Rudy's halfway there already.
posted by Grangousier at 2:00 AM on September 2, 2023 [5 favorites]

A New Rudy Scandal: FBI Agent Says Giuliani Was Co-opted by Russian Intelligence

This was pretty obvious during the "withhold assistance from Ukraine until Zelenskyy says on tv that Hunter Biden is bad" scandal. The failed 1st impeachment and then the attempted coup and 2nd impeachment have made us forget that that, too, was also a terrible time that was also full of crimes that could still be prosecuted.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:29 AM on September 2, 2023 [11 favorites]

Holding out for the large dog who may or may not be talking, though. Rudy's halfway there already.

Ruh roh! Don't shake hands with him!
posted by y2karl at 6:49 AM on September 2, 2023

the "Leroy Jenkins Strategy"
I keep thinking of an Eyebrows McGee comment from last year, including what 'MAGA' stands for..
posted by MtDewd at 7:02 AM on September 2, 2023 [14 favorites]

This was pretty obvious during the "withhold assistance from Ukraine until Zelenskyy says on tv that Hunter Biden is bad" scandal.

It seemed obvious then, but the article names names and suggests official investigation was scuttled within the FBI. That clarity was new to me.
posted by mazola at 7:05 AM on September 2, 2023 [7 favorites]

NPR: See how Trump's trials crowd the Republican political calendar

To see the extent to which the GOP political calendar and Trump's legal calendar are intertwined, it's helpful to see them laid out together. As you look at the graphic below, remember that the dates are subject to change:

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:32 AM on September 2, 2023 [3 favorites]

what 'MAGA' stands for: My Ass Got Arrested
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:20 AM on September 2, 2023 [5 favorites]

Talking about murals: Today in Amsterdam.
posted by Pendragon at 12:35 PM on September 2, 2023 [5 favorites]

1999: FBI tracked alleged Russian mob ties of Giuliani campaign supporter. The supporter: Semyon "Sam" Kislin, a commodities trader then a member of the mayor-appointed Economic Development Board. A 1994 FBI report said Kislin's company, Trans Commodities, "is known to have laundered millions of dollars from Russia to New York." A 1996 Interpol report claimed that Trans Commodities Inc. was used by Lev and Mikhail Chernoi [or Cherney], two Uzbek-born brothers who have taken over much of Russia's metals business, for fraud and embezzlement.

2019, Roll Call, Sept. 30: Democrats subpoena Giuliani, Russian and Ukrainian businessmen. The subpoena also seeks documents and depositions from Giuliani’s associates Lev Parnas, a Ukrainian businessman; the latter’s partner Igor Fruman; and Semyon Kislin, a Russian businessman who is said to be associated with Giuliani. The documents are due to the House Democrats by Oct. 15.

2019, CNN, Oct. 14: Kislin was one of three Giuliani associates that received requests for documents and testimony from House Democrats. The other two, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, were indicted last week on charges of funneling foreign money into US elections, and were served with subpoenas last week by the House Intelligence Committee to turn over documents. But it had been unclear why Kislin had not been issued a subpoena. [Kislin's lawyer, Jeffrey] Dannenberg told CNN that he reached an agreement with the House committee so that Kislin did not have to appear for the scheduled deposition. Dannenberg said his client was being responsive to the committee, and that Kislin “has no such information” to share with House investigators relevant to the impeachment inquiry.

Parnas and Fruman have been of high interest to Democrats in part because they worked with Giuliani to remove former US Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch from her post earlier this year. It’s unclear what information Kislin could have about that effort.

In January 2018, a US Embassy official wrote an email saying of Kislin, "He claims he is a President's advisor."

Trump's known Kislin since the 1970s, when Kislin sold hundreds of TVs to Trump for hotel rooms.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:58 PM on September 2, 2023 [12 favorites]

Bill Barr did more damage to this country with his summary of the Mueller Report, which says the opposite of what Barr says it does, than nearly anyone else this century.
posted by hippybear at 1:38 PM on September 2, 2023 [24 favorites]

Trump was in negotiations with a Russian company for "Trump World Tower Moscow" condos in 2015, during his campaign, and signed an 18-page letter of intent to license the Trump name that October. The agreement would have netted Trump millions up front, some control over development, and a percentage of gross operating revenues for decades. Per frequent collaborator Felix Sater, VTB Bank (partially owned by the Kremlin, under US sanctions) would have financed the project. Days before signing, Trump tweeted a link to an article titled “Putin loves Donald Trump.” The never-executed deal came up during the Russia investigation in 2017, when Michael Cohen was Trump's corporate lawyer; both Cohen and Donald Trump Jr. told the congressional committee Trump Sr. signed the letter.

In December 2018, despite serving as one of Trump's lawyers and advisors during that investigation, Giuliani lied about the deal during a CNN interview. How Rudy Giuliani Became Trump's Attack Dog (WaPo archived link, Oct. 16, 2016)
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:05 PM on September 2, 2023 [13 favorites]

TFG throws TFG Jr and the Other One under the bus in his NY civil Fraud Case: Trump said his sons, Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump, both of whom currently serve as executive vice presidents at the Trump organization and are named in the suit, saw their roles change once he came president.

“They became more intensely involved with the company, I was virtually not involved at all,” Trump said. “I rarely — I’d rarely have anything to do with anything having to do with the company.”
Juicy bits start a couple paragraphs in after blowhard ramblings about saving the world from a nuclear holocaust.
posted by Mitheral at 5:33 PM on September 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

Why Is Trump Risking ‘Fines and Even Jail Time’ to Speak Out Against Judge Tanya Chutkan, DA Fani Willis, and AG Letitia James Despite Signing Agreement Not to Lash Out?
He continues to create posts on social media, and has amplified others' posts and videos targeting the three (Black, female) legal professionals.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:13 PM on September 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

Why Is Trump Risking ‘Fines and Even Jail Time’

The answer, of course, is that he simply cannot accept that the rules apply to him. He believes he's entitled to do whatever he wants without any consequences whatsoever, and he refuses to listen to any court officials or any lawyers who tell him differently.

However, in a way he's right... he's in so deep that this point that the consequences for any further misbehaviour are merely academic. He's already going to be spending the rest of his miserable existence in prison.
posted by orange swan at 9:11 PM on September 3, 2023 [10 favorites]

I'm willing to bet he's just got such a massive ego and he's such a huge racist he can't stand to let a Black woman tell him what to do. Trump has never been known for planning, thinking, evaluating, and otherwise taking action in a considered way. I really doubt there's any actual plan here or reason beyond "you can't tell me what to do".
posted by sotonohito at 9:17 PM on September 3, 2023 [16 favorites]

Might be delusion, etc., but it's probably also the advice Roy Cohn would have given him, at least in all circumstances that arose in Trump's life while Cohn was still alive (which probably never covered circumstances like the present ones in which following this path could lead to a revoked bail and thus being jailed until trial.)

But...will any of the trial judges actually jail him until trial? Despite what my little heart desires, it's so hard to imagine that happening!
posted by nobody at 10:03 PM on September 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

He's already going to be spending the rest of his miserable existence in prison.

But if he keeps up with the verboten speech he'll start now instead of years from now.
posted by Mitheral at 10:03 PM on September 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

will any of the trial judges actually jail him until trial?
I doubt they'll jail him after the trial, so the likelihood of them jailing him before then has to be pretty low.

That transcript is ... something. I can't tell if the AG actually got anything worthwhile from the deposition, but you can feel the frustration just going on and on and on.
posted by dg at 10:33 PM on September 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

dg, what transcript are you referring to, please?
posted by Flunkie at 11:20 PM on September 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

Oh, it was linked from Mitheral's link above, sorry - 'tis here.
posted by dg at 11:51 PM on September 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

Why Is Trump Risking ‘Fines and Even Jail Time’

A disordered mind will continue to be disordered, regardless of outside circumstances. Trump's cognition is not recognizable to most people, because he's lived with serious, untreated personality disorder(s) so long that his mind is another planet to any person with any version of typical, healthy cognition. He's way beyond even what most of of us recognize/have experience with as mental illness. With how his mind appears to work, assume he's a literal non-human alien in a skin suit, it will be easier to understand that his thinking and actions will never, ever map to yours in any meaningfully comparable way.

He's also utterly amoral, so there's that.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:38 AM on September 4, 2023 [8 favorites]

dg, your link seems sort of borked. Transcript
posted by Windopaene at 8:02 AM on September 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

The chances of him not forcing some kind of confrontation over this was always zero. My guess he’s right and there will be no immediate consequences.
posted by Artw at 8:18 AM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

That transcript is ... something. I can't tell if the AG actually got anything worthwhile from the deposition, but you can feel the frustration just going on and on and on.

I trust Tish. (Granted, I am a massive Tish James fangirl, but still.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:46 AM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

A disordered mind will continue to be disordered, regardless of outside circumstances.

I dunno; I don’t love the appeal to mental illness when “massive social and economic privilege” can be invoked to the same effect. Trump has lived a life where he had enough wealth to cosplay as a canny businessman long enough to surround himself with a thick layer of hanger-on to insulate him from consequences and the real world. Having no one really challenge your inflated self image for half a century at least is a hell of a drug. I suppose you could call that a “disordered mind,” especially if it’s been marinating in the Prosperity Gospel and Peales’ Positive Thinking, but I doubt that Trump suffers from mental illness beyond age-related cognitive decline.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:41 AM on September 4, 2023 [7 favorites]

IMO, The Apprentice saved Trump from failure. If the Apprentice had never happened, Trump would have been another failed businessman and wannabe gangster. Giuliani protected him, but Giuliani failed too, in real life. They kept each other up in the whole weird world of celebrity TV.
posted by mumimor at 11:14 AM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]

but I doubt that Trump suffers from mental illness beyond age-related cognitive decline.

Oh, no -- I mean, the other things you're pointing out are probably correct, but he definitely has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, despite anyone's professional qualms at diagnosing at a distance.

(And also, not unrelated to that diagnosis, his inflated self image is paper thin, stretched taut over a void he's terrified to ever even glimpse at.)
posted by nobody at 11:19 AM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

He doesn't seem difficult to understand to me. On the contrary, he seems very simple.

He desperately wants to convince everyone (including himself) that he is the best, he's deeply resentful, and he views the world as fundamentally less than zero-sum. Everything else follows.

I mean, sure, someone so inclined could write books about their idea of the actual inner workings of his brain, but who cares. It's all supposition (as it would be with any person); the functional results, which are all we can really know, are essentially the same as they would be based upon that simple premise.
posted by Flunkie at 12:07 PM on September 4, 2023 [11 favorites]

Oh, no -- I mean, the other things you're pointing out are probably correct, but he definitely has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, despite anyone's professional qualms at diagnosing at a distance.

I really like this for a number of reasons.

1. Unless you are a mental health professional with direct access to Trump, you're just a person guessing on the internet. You might be right, but there really is not a "definitely" about it, no matter how much confidence you have in your diagnosis.

2. There are literally millions of people with mental conditions (including NPD) that manage not do do much damage at all, and are, in fact, more likely to suffer damage. Presenting a mental condition or "a disordered mind" as the core of Trump's evil hurts those people, too.

3. It doesn't really solve anything. There isn't a good treatment for most personality disorders (that I am aware of; I am not a mental health professional). Whether Trump is suffering from some kind of neurological/psychological condition or just the accumulated years of grotesque privilege and toxic patriarchal attitudes that have swollen his ego to the point where he can see nothing else, what good does that distinction make? The only cure for him now is conviction and draining his financial resources (and, by extension, those of the Republicans) until he's no longer an effective threat (I think he's going to be a problem until age-related decline renders him incoherent, but maybe not such a danger).

I've spent a lot of the last 18 months or so in an Alex Jones trench, and I fretted over whether he believes the toxic misinformation he spews, whether he was a canny grifter, some combination of the two, or what, but I eventually realized that it doesn't matter -- he's a social disease, and the only answer that matters is robbing him of his platform, punishing him as much as the courts will allow, and shutting down his bullshit pulpits until he's just creaming through a megaphone on a corner in downtown Austin for 6 hours a day until he has a stroke. Plumbing the depths of his mind is not worth it, except as an intellectual exercise. Practical solutions for Trump and Jones and the rest of them are what we have left.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:14 PM on September 4, 2023 [12 favorites]

Gonna take me a while to shake the image of Alex Jones creaming through a megaphone, so thanks for that.

I was shouting at the mice in the shed and I fell on it
posted by flabdablet at 1:20 PM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]

A "social disease," posting on TruthSocial... which was founded by Trump & Co in Feb. 2021, after two guys who'd appeared on The Apprentice pitched it the month before.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:22 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

Gonna take me a while to shake the image of Alex Jones creaming through a megaphone, so thanks for that.

I blame autocorrect, but it's scant comfort.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:28 PM on September 4, 2023

Click here to see a video of Alex Jones creaming through a megaphone (SLYT).
posted by Meatbomb at 1:32 PM on September 4, 2023

I don’t love the appeal to mental illness when “massive social and economic privilege” can be invoked to the same effect

I think a key word in my comment (which was only meant to explain why Trump's behavior may not make sense to people) is "untreated," which also includes his massive social and economic privilege; that's how he's managed to avoid being compelled to treatment for obvious, severe personality disorder. People suffering from mental illness who refuse to ever take responsibility or seek any treatment whatsoever for that are, in fact, problematic for then inflicting that untreated illness on the rest of us. The illness is not the problem per se, many many people manage mental illness everyday and do not actively harm themselves or the people around them, but those people are being responsible about their illness, and Donald Trump very obviously is not. So I'm not blaming his (apparent) illness, I'm blaming him for doing nothing about it for almost 80 years.

(And to reverse the logic offered above, many people who benefit from massive social and economic privilege are not the amoral, solipsistic monsters that Trump is, so I don't think one can blame any precondition as intrinsically corrupting.)
posted by LooseFilter at 1:39 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

(And actually, I don't think I'm trying to "blame" anything on anything, that framing was imposed on my comment--I was simply observing that an untreated personality disorder will make a person's behavior baffling to the rest of us, absent that explanation.)
posted by LooseFilter at 1:44 PM on September 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

[...]Practical solutions for Trump and Jones and the rest of them are what we have left.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've just written (and I wasn't the person you were originally responding to), but with the one addition that he presents, like, the platonic ideal of NPD. Not saying it's necessarily the most pertinent thing about him, and I only responded at all because it seemed like you were specifically diagnosing him as mental illness free. ("I doubt that Trump suffers from mental illness beyond age-related cognitive decline.")

(I've also had these thoughts kind of building up from an earlier thread in which an FPP referred to the 'dark triad' of narcisism/psychopathy/Machiavellianism, and someone made a glib comment quoting a self-assured [but ultimately simultaneously self-effacing] line from Obama as [inappropriate] evidence of anyone who attains national leadership being a 'narcissist,' so I'd been thinking about how Obama is clearly not likely to be diagnosable as such and how Trump clearly is, especially since 'narcissism' in that context means NPD, not, like, being full of oneself.)

(But I take your point that all of this is beside the point when it comes to discussing what to do about it, that there's a societal malignancy he represents that's greater than whatever is or isn't going on specifically inside his head, etc., and -- of course! -- that it's not a great idea to tar the wide swathe of those with mental illnesses with a sense that anyone can or should be dismissed as merely 'disordered.')
posted by nobody at 1:45 PM on September 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

nobody: "he definitely has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, despite anyone's professional qualms at diagnosing at a distance."

Not to get all "well, actually" on you, but the guy who wrote the DSM entry for NPD chimed in on this exact topic in 2017.

Trump is an undisputed poster boy for narcissism. He demonstrates in pure form every single symptom described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) criteria for narcissistic personality disorder, which I wrote in 1978. But lots of successful people are extremely narcissistic without being mentally ill — think most celebrities, many politicians, and a fair percentage of writers, artists, lawyers, doctors, and professors. To qualify for narcissistic personality disorder, an individual’s selfish, unempathetic preening must be accompanied by significant distress or impairment. Trump certainly causes severe distress and impairment in others, but his narcissism doesn’t seem to affect him that way.

posted by adamrice at 2:05 PM on September 4, 2023 [9 favorites]

We should probably let this thread rerail away from the diagnosis topic, but behavior leading to 91 felony charges sure sounds like distress!
posted by nobody at 2:29 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

It certainly isn't merely speech if it's behavior that can lead to felony charges! #1stAmendment
posted by hippybear at 2:31 PM on September 4, 2023

What do we all gain from assigning Trump a mental health diagnosis from a distance?

He is a criminal who has gotten away with crimes for decades, and even rose to the highest position in the US, and the world, in spite of those crimes (or to cover over those crimes). Now, the justice system is finally catching up. In a way, it is more interesting how and why he got this far, and what that says about justice and democracy in the US. He has even repeatedly addressed this himself.

As a matter of fact, Americans (and many other nations) keep on electing corrupt politicians. Trump is cartoonishly, ridiculously corrupt in every sense of the word. But so is Mitch McConnell. Trump has crossed some lines, like staging an insurrection, but all Republicans are all into manipulating elections and appointing obviously corrupt judges and much more.
posted by mumimor at 2:33 PM on September 4, 2023 [7 favorites]

I mean, I can think of several times in the past decade in which Trump's stated agenda would have been better served by shutting the fuck up, but thankfully he didn't. But I suppose we can let the Psychiatrist determine what impairment means.

So let's do that. Allen Frances said on CNN in 2019:

Trump is as destructive a person in this century as Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were in the last century. He may be responsible for many more million deaths than they were."

No word on what Frances thought of injecting disinfectant to cure COVID or Jan 6, but if thats what the dude says halfway in, I can only make pessimistic judgements of the second half of the Trump presidency.

But really diagnosis shouldn't matter. We have 4 years of Trump as president to judge him by, and past behavior seems like a far better predictor than any politicized psychiatric test could be. I'm pretty confident even fans of his policies will admit, once his re-election chances are finally and fully buried, that other candidates would have done a better job at implementing their (terrible) policy preferences.
posted by pwnguin at 2:34 PM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]

What do we all gain from assigning Trump a mental health diagnosis from a distance?
We don't gain anything and we lose a lot. Apart from branding people who genuinely struggle with mental illness as having something in common with Trump, doing this makes excuses for him. Letting him off the hook by claiming he is mentally ill distracts from the fact that he's quite simply a selfish arsehole. There's no need to find excuses for his behaviour.
posted by dg at 2:40 PM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]

I’ve made it through 80 pages of that deposition, and it seems pretty clear to me, reading what he said, that, to quote Hank Hill, there is definitely something not right with that guy. All of his properties are - extremely positive adjective - , one of his standard ways of speaking. He comes up with specific dollar amounts, but can’t remember much details about who, what, why, or when. He saved the world! He saved the lives of millions of people! Everything he’s touched has turned into gold! The guy is nuts (not a category in the DSM V) and a liar (not a category in the DSM V). And our political system and justice system allowed a person like him to become president. And now he’s once more running for president. And we still have the same fucked up political and justice system we had back in 2016. Hence, the constant pessimism expressed in all these Trump threads about whether or not anything will be done about it. In terms of all the current and pending legal actions, surprise me by not allowing it to be all Muellerized into nothing…
posted by njohnson23 at 3:10 PM on September 4, 2023 [9 favorites]

hey I'm finally going to ask: what does "TFG" stand for

also are we seriously voldemorting Donald Trump here
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:00 PM on September 4, 2023

Not acknowledging that TFG likely has NPD or a similar personality disorder erases the lived experience of those among us who have suffered terribly due to the actions and behavior of someone with such a diagnosis, and why folks who have that lived experience might find TFG incredibly triggering.

With all due respect, I disagree with you on that. I have PTSD and I find Trumps behaviour triggering, but I really don't need distance-diagnosing to feel real and respected. Trump probably does have a personality disorder, and his niece who is a psychologist thinks so, which is very convincing. But so what?

His crimes are crimes and should be dealt with accordingly. It is a disgrace that the Republican Party let a criminal and con man run for president in 2015, and it is a disgrace that they are doing it again. It is a disgrace that he was never indicted and convicted for tax evasion, money laundering and fraud before he ran for president, and probably an indication that the justice system is corrupt.

If there was a fair justice system that dealt with people like him, he would never have been able to run for president, and we wouldn't have to care one bit about his mental health issues.

TFG=The Former Guy.
posted by mumimor at 11:20 PM on September 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

This particular TFG = That Fucking Guy.

voldemorting

TFG has already pissed his name into enough of our snow that I'm unmotivated to offer any further assistance with that project.
posted by flabdablet at 11:39 PM on September 4, 2023 [9 favorites]

also are we seriously voldemorting Donald Trump here

....Kinda? Although for a different reason.

The idea behind not mentioning Voldemort's name was that mentioning it would magically give him more power. When it comes to Trump...the thinking was that he is always trying to get his name in the forefront of everyone's mind; he wants to be famous and beloved to everyone. And there's a school of thought that states that the media talking about him all the time during his initial campaign actually helped him; giving him attention helps him. So that's why some people don't use his name - it's a way of starving him of the attention he craves, little by little. So...yeah, mentioning his name gives him power.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:41 AM on September 5, 2023 [15 favorites]

Trump's co-defendants are already starting to turn against him (SLPolitico)
posted by box at 5:09 AM on September 5, 2023 [8 favorites]

Why Is Trump Risking ‘Fines and Even Jail Time’ to Speak Out Against Judge Tanya Chutkan, DA Fani Willis, and AG Letitia James

Others' ideas here about this question are good ones, but I'd add this. Trump might sense that he's going to need a major disruptive force to get him out of his current mess. Congress, the Georgia legislature, the Georgia / US Supreme Court, rioting mobs in major cities—correctly or not, he may believe one of these entities can do some Hail Mary thing to make his legal troubles go away.

He seems to have tried to marshal that kind of support in the past by upping the loyalty ante: if I can get you to support X crazy thing I do/say today, then you're on the hook for when I do/say Y tomorrow. So in the case of trashing the current judges and prosecutors, maybe he figures if he gets the right people to defend his doing that now, they'll be on the hook to act when that bites him in the ass, and ultimately to try to rescue him altogether.

A ridiculous, asinine thing to suppose, but the system's proven itself vulnerable and amenable to his ridiculous, asinine maneuvering all his life, so.
posted by Rykey at 8:15 AM on September 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

Here's the thing with the armchair diagnoses that I think is important to remember: being mentally ill does not let you off the hook for being a complete asshole. It's entirely possible to be mentally ill and still be a decent, caring human being. It's not a get out of jail free card. Sure, as compassionate, decent, caring human beings we can say, well, this person clearly has diminished ability to recognize the consequences of their actions and should be treated kindly - as should everyone - but that doesn't mean they get off the hook for everything they ever do.

It took me a long time to realize this and once I did it changed my life for the better. There's giving slack to those who need it and then there's allowing the abdication of all responsibility. He should never have been allowed into politics in the first place, but he was and now he must face the consequences of a lifetime of being a complete asshole. I for one think that should include prison.
posted by mygothlaundry at 9:43 AM on September 5, 2023 [23 favorites]

There's a thing I've been thinking about with my personal tormenter, and that is that it would have been better for me, his other victims and even himself if he had been treated as a common criminal. FWIW, my therapy team agrees. They actually want me to bring this to court now that it has become possible. I don't have the energy.

First of all, it seems research says that for this particular type of disorder, clear boundaries that are strictly enforced are the only thing that works. Talk therapy or meds have no effect. The Norwegian prison system is perhaps the most liberal in the world, but absolutely no-one is suggesting Breivik should be let loose.

Second, for the victims, and in the case of Trump that is the whole of western civilisation, the understanding that the perpetrator was/is crossing boundaries is essential for their recovery. Let me expand on this a bit. When I escaped from the abusive, life-threatening relationship I was in, I sought help. The first therapist I met asked me what I might have done to trigger the violence. My current team cannot even imagine that level of malpractice.(This was ages ago, so the therapist is most probably dead by now).

In the same vein, when Trump won the election, the liberal media and many democratic pundits began a years-long discussion about the distress of the white working class. Fuck you!! The election had been won by a known fraudster, tax-evader, rapist and money launderer, with the assistance of the FBI who suggested that the Democratic candidate had somehow committed a crime. And liberal media and commentators were finding faults with Hillary. WTF is wrong with those people????

I'm not out to relitigate the 2016 election, but I do want to learn. The people who voted for Trump embraced fascism because they are racist, misogynist and averse to the necessary change we have to deal with because of global heating. We may need to inspire them, but we sure as fucking hell don't need to service them.
posted by mumimor at 11:15 AM on September 5, 2023 [42 favorites]

Flagged as fantastic, mumimor. I am so sorry that you were abused and tormented by a criminal and also sorry that you and countless others must relive their traumas courtesy of that fucking American criminal. Truly appreciate your perspective. Thanks for sharing it.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:24 PM on September 5, 2023 [8 favorites]

The one way I can think of that the mental illness thing is relevant is that it speaks to the seriousness of the threat he poses. He's not going to "come around" or "see reason" or anything like that because he's a giant racist pompous erratic asshole. Then, on top of all that, he's such massive narcissist it is likely a mental disorder serves to amplify all the other terrible things about him. To me it makes all the BS related to TFG* more serious and urgent.

*Count me in camp "That Fuckin' Guy" 'cause it treats him with the disdain he deserves. Like I spit on his name every time I type it.
posted by VTX at 12:26 PM on September 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

Not really RICO-adjacent, but this Rolling Stone article about the rivalry between would-be Trump VP candidates Kari Lake and Marjorie Taylor Greene is not unamusing. Favorite sentence:

Several [sources close to Trump and working on his reelection] independently claimed that even Trump is not “stupid enough” to tap either as his running mate.

posted by box at 2:39 PM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

Peter Navarro, second ex-Trump aide to be prosecuted for contempt of Congress, started his trial today. (Steve Bannon was convicted on two counts last year & has filed for appeal.) US District Judge Amit Mehta, who will be presiding over the trial, concluded last week that Navarro had not put forward enough evidence establishing that Trump had formally invoked privilege or immunity in response to the subpoena, having previously described Navarro’s arguments as “pretty weak sauce.”

Navarro is the former WH director of trade and manufacturing/Fauci critic who authored 2021's "In Trump Time: Inside America's Plague Year;" in it, Navarro boasted of his plan to delay the certification of the 2020 election, & later said in an interview that “Trump was on board” with it.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:55 PM on September 5, 2023 [10 favorites]

In March 2023, the DOJ argue[d] Peter Navarro was 'mistaken' in claiming he was shielded from testifying to Jan. 6 panel
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:57 PM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

Proud Boys’ Enrique Tarrio gets record 22 years in prison for Jan. 6 seditious conspiracy
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:07 PM on September 5, 2023 [20 favorites]

The Proud Boy sentences are great anti-overturn-democracy advertising but the sad reality is that they will all get pardons the moment there is a Republican in the White House just like all previous major Republican criminal operatives have for the last 40 years or more.
posted by srboisvert at 4:53 PM on September 5, 2023

22 years in prison? FAFO FTW!

Fucking prison. Enjoy. But these guys will likely fall into prison gangs and continue to spew their horrible shit within prison, continuing the bullshit. But, prison motherfucker.
posted by Windopaene at 5:08 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

Questions asked of two recent witnesses indicate [special counsel Jack] Smith is focusing on how money raised off baseless claims of voter fraud was used to fund attempts to breach voting equipment in several states won by Joe Biden, according to multiple sources familiar with the ongoing investigation. In both interviews, prosecutors have focused their questions on the role of former Trump lawyer Sidney Powell.

According to invoices obtained by CNN, Powell’s non-profit, Defending the Republic, hired forensics firms that ultimately accessed voting equipment in four swing states won by Biden: Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Arizona. (Special counsel election probe continues with focus on fundraising, voting equipment breaches, CNN, Sept. 5, 2023)
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:30 PM on September 5, 2023 [9 favorites]

…Powell’s non-profit, Defending the Republic…
DeFRAUDING the Republic, more like, eh, eh?!

Anyway, that pull quote is like the perfect distillation of the concept of Trump’s Mirror.
posted by zoinks at 7:51 PM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

Navarro is the former WH director of trade and manufacturing/Fauci critic who authored 2021's "In Trump Time: Inside America's Plague Year;" in it, Navarro boasted of his plan to delay the certification of the 2020 election, & later said in an interview that “Trump was on board” with it.

Navarro was often the person the White House would often deploy to talk to NPR, back when I listened to NPR. He had a faux-friendly way of spouting MAGA wingnut codswallop and refusing to answer the hosts' questions -- Steve Inskeep was particularly hapless in countering this style. He seemed polite enough for NPR while being thoroughly uncivil in refusing to discuss any topic in good faith. If his devotion to extreme right wing politics was enough for him to break the law, trusting only on political power to keep him out of trouble, I have no sympathy for him getting that trouble now that the American people removed Trump from power.
posted by Gelatin at 5:08 AM on September 6, 2023 [10 favorites]

Trump’s Legal and Political Calendar: All the Dates You Need to Know
posted by kirkaracha at 7:41 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]

It looks like Meadows' legal team is signaling that he's going to throw Trump entirely under the bus.
posted by hippybear at 10:07 AM on September 6, 2023 [6 favorites]

E Jean Carroll wins again. The jury will only decide damages for Trump’s continued defamation.
posted by interogative mood at 10:47 AM on September 6, 2023 [19 favorites]

....I actually have a copy of that panel from a DOONSEBURY strip saved, the one where Mark Slackmeyer was talking about John Mitchell's predicted guilty verdict on the radio and he wildly proclaims, "That's GUILTY! GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!"

I first posted it when George Floyd's murderers were found guilty. Then when things started happening with TFG, I dragged it out to use more. I'm up to 11 posts so far.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:04 PM on September 6, 2023 [14 favorites]

"Mar-a-Lago IT worker Yuscil Taveras has struck a cooperation agreement with the special counsel’s office in the federal case over former President Donald Trump’s handling of classified documents."

Judge rules Powell and Chesebro will go to trial together in October

"Fulton County prosecutors are estimating that their elections interference case against former President Donald Trump and 18 others would take roughly four months to try in court and require testimony from about 150 witnesses." The judge says more like 8 months.

I kinda feel like the ending of All the President's Men.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:32 PM on September 6, 2023 [12 favorites]

(If they end up going with the proposed March 4th trial date, 8 months ends precisely on Election Day Eve. Ugh. At least it'll be televised.)
posted by nobody at 12:45 PM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]

“Having disqualified himself from public office by violating Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, Donald Trump must be removed from the ballot, according to a lawsuit filed today by six Republican and unaffiliated Colorado voters including former state, federal and local officials, represented by Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington and the firms Tierney Lawrence Stiles LLC, KBN Law, LLC and Olson Grimsley Kawanabe Hinchcliff & Murray LLC.” From the press release posted here.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:41 PM on September 6, 2023 [16 favorites]

Didn't New Mexico already actually remove from office someone for being involved with all this? It isn't like states haven't or won't take this idea seriously.
posted by hippybear at 8:01 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]

Today on Trinity Broadcasting Network, which senior NBC News reporter Ben Collins says bills itself as the largest Christian television network in the world, former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee opened his most recent episode by saying that if former president Trump loses the 2024 election because of the many indictments grand juries have handed down concerning his behavior, “it is going to be the last American election that will be decided by ballots rather than bullets.” (Letters from an American, Sept. 6, 2023) Mike Huckabee, 2008 and 2016 presidential candidate, Baptist minister, author of 2020's "The Three Cs That Made America Great: Christianity, Capitalism, and the Constitution" (foreword by Sean Hannity).
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:48 AM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]

"Have you no sense of decency, Sir?"
posted by mumimor at 7:53 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]

He does not.

Mike Huckabee's entire adult life has been spent in a series of small worlds (Baptist ministry, televangelism, red-state politics, fringe candidacies, and, the one he'll probably end on, right-wing religious media) where he can just say stupid shit and rarely (i.e., only during the brief windows when he and the mainstream media have to pretend he's a viable candidate), if ever, even have to defend it.

He's not going to run for anything else, and he's not going to say anything that will get him fired from TBN. Mike Huckabee is going to get worse.
posted by box at 8:15 AM on September 7, 2023 [8 favorites]

Huckabee shifts with the winds. Like the Republican Party as a whole, he was not as (openly) nutty almost 30 years ago when he first became Governor of Arkansas. Partly, but not entirely, because the legislature was still controlled by the other party, not a lot changed immediately after Clinton left and his replacement resigned, giving Huckabee the top office.

Like the kings of men who bore the rings of power, it took a while for Mike to become a ringwraith. It probably shouldn't be surprising to me that the Christian extremists getting what they wanted didn't calm them down, but only made them more extreme. After all, they have to do something to keep the temperature up among the movement or it will cease to be a movement. I guess in one sense it's nice that they're saying that they'll do anything for power, even if it destroys the Republic. At least the cards are all on the table now.
posted by wierdo at 8:48 AM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]

Must we react to everything every asshole says? People say all kinds of shit. When Huckabee actually does anything, we can react then.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:48 AM on September 7, 2023 [8 favorites]

Good point, LooseFilter. Maybe because I am not American, I thought Huckabee was a regular rightwing republican not a crazy. I feel educated.
posted by mumimor at 12:35 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]

He's just grifting these days I think. He's passed his legacy down to his daughter. Who is doing him proud...
posted by Windopaene at 1:27 PM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]

I thought Huckabee was a regular rightwing republican not a crazy

He is a regular rightwing Republican. A crazy.
posted by Flunkie at 1:30 PM on September 7, 2023 [15 favorites]

There are some "regular rightwing republican[s]", but they've largely been driven out of the party or silenced, because the Republican claim to aspire to small government doesn't stand up to criminalizing abortion or stealing elections or activist judges making up facts and history or socializing capitalist risk. It turns out that a lot of Republicans are actually fascists and have been all along -- they just don't have the courage of that conviction either, so they stood as far right as they thought they could get away with until Trump kicked down the last barrier.
posted by Etrigan at 1:41 PM on September 7, 2023 [9 favorites]

I thought Huckabee was a regular rightwing republican not a crazy

Would a crazy person fry squirrels in a popcorn popper?
#tasteslikechicken
posted by kirkaracha at 2:08 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]

On a related note: Peter Navarro Convicted of Contempt of Congress Over Jan. 6 Subpoena [NYTimes]. Sentencing could be up to two years in prison and up to $200k.
posted by nobody at 2:12 PM on September 7, 2023 [17 favorites]

I am reminded of racial politics and culture in the south, not so long ago, when injustices were the order of the day. Not everything was violent because it didn't have to be. They "tried to be reasonable." They "tried to avoid disruptions of the natural order." They used the legal system and societal pressures and shunning and economic warfare and every other method imaginable to keep The Other, and those sympathetic to The Other, in their place.

And then, when that failed or when someone decided an example needed to be made, then came the violence. Certainly, there were those who were fond of going that way much earlier than others, but that was more sociopathy than necessity.

You know who talks about elections being corrupt, about violence being the only alternative to losing them, about civil war being imminent, about men with guns restoring the "rightful order?" Not someone who sees any other path to victory.

And that's with the Electoral College effectively gerrymandering the nation for Presidential elections, that's with geography making both houses of Congress an uphill battle for decent folk, that's with the Mirror Universe Media indoctrinating much of the American public on a daily basis, that's with SCOTUS rigged in their general favor, that's with a mainstream that will be determined to make Campaign 2024 a horse race no matter who emerges as its frontrunners.

Mike Huckabee is a Christofascist. Make no mistake about that -- he always has been. He has lots of company. And he is seeing this wave of Trumpism sliding out of power nationally, and reverting to form -- demanding that states be allowed to become little Christofascist enclaves running themselves independently from Constitutional America, having more reasons than H&R Block why his side is the persecuted one, and finally, threatening violence. It's not that he himself will pick up an AR-15 and hit the streets, of course; that would be unseemly. But repeating "Someone will have to do something" to a heavily armed, heavily propagandized cult base has known effects.

The one good thing about terrorism is that those crazy enough to engage in it are rarely stable enough to succeed at it. But here in America, we make it so easy, and it's not much comfort if your supermarket or school or church is the unlucky one on a given day.
posted by delfin at 2:34 PM on September 7, 2023 [9 favorites]

If you're into this sort of thing, Fani Willis responded to Jim Jordan's letter about the Trump indictment. It's sort of a thing of beauty. [DocumentCloud]
posted by hippybear at 3:06 PM on September 7, 2023 [25 favorites]

Marking the examples of racist threats her office has recieved as "exhibits F-O" is (chefkiss).
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:54 PM on September 7, 2023 [9 favorites]

Hah! Yes, hippybear, that response is wonderful. I love getting to read official government documents - especially ones written by smart people well versed in the law - and I greatly appreciate you posting it here. Thank you!
posted by kristi at 3:59 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]

Thanks for posting that, hippybear. As someone who has spent many years working in roles where writing official letters has irreparably harmed my soul, that letter is indeed a thing of beauty.
posted by dg at 4:23 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]

For a more thorough understanding of Georgia’s RICO statute, its application and similar laws in other states, I encourage you to read “RICO State-by-State.” As a non-member of the bar, you can purchase a copy for two hundred forty-nine dollars [$249].

😭
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 5:47 PM on September 7, 2023 [11 favorites]

Político on Wills’ letter. Jordan’s team was unavailable for comment.
posted by box at 6:07 PM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]

In our nation’s 246-year history, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump. -- Dick Cheney
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:51 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]

In our nation’s 246-year history, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump. -- Dick Cheney

In fairness, Cheney has some personal credibility in being a threat to the republic.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:01 PM on September 7, 2023 [20 favorites]

I mean, if Dick Cheney thinks the man is dangerous, he's someone who knows what he's talking about.
posted by hippybear at 8:14 PM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]

Darth Cheney with far too little, at-least-eight-years-too-late.

Maybe it'll help make Kissinger feel safe to weigh in sometime late in the decade.
posted by riverlife at 10:10 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]

Interesting profile of the Fulton Co judge who will oversee this trial Although a member of the Federalist Society, it sounds like he's no Judge Aileen Cannon, and can presumably be expected to behave ethically.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:58 AM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

Skimming through the deposition.

Page 85
MR. WALLACE: So you're not going to obey the CPLR and --
MR. KISE: I'm going to obey the CPLR. But we're going to be here until midnight if you keep asking questions that [are] all over the map.
MR. WALLACE: Chris, we're going to be here until midnight if your client answers every question with an eight-minute speech. So let's get down to business.
Q. Mr. Trump --
MS. HABBA: No, we're not.
MR. KISE: We're not.
MS. HABBA: We are limited to seven hours.
[...]
A. When you said, "midnight" --

Page 111
Q. Well, the next paragraph reads, "Donald J. Trump is responsible for the preparation and fair presentation of the financial statement in accordance with accounting principles generally accepted in the United States of America and for designing, implementing and maintaining internal control relevant to the preparation and fair presentation of the financial statement."
A. That's right. And that's negated by your last paragraph totally.
Q. We'll get to the "negating" paragraph in a moment.
A. No, I mean, it's negated.
[...]
A. I have attorneys that are saying this is the strongest worthless clause they've ever seen.
Q. Who told you that?
MR. KISE: Object to the form.
A. Attorneys.
MS. HABBA: Objection.
A. Attorneys.
Q. Your attorneys or attorneys for --
A. My attorneys.
Q. Okay.
A. Other attorneys too.

posted by lucidium at 8:46 AM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]

If there's one thing that deposition makes clear is that the answer to "How do you arrive at a valuation?" is 'make shit up'.
posted by mazola at 9:01 AM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]

The Fulton County special purpose grand jury that investigated interference in Georgia’s 2020 presidential election recommended 39 indictments.

The recommendations — which included U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham, ex-Trump National Security Advisor Michael Flynn and former Georgia U.S. Sens. David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler — were contained in the 23-person jury’s final report [DocumentCloud], which was released in full on Friday.
...
In August, a separate criminal grand jury handed up a 41-count racketeering indictment against 19 people, using testimony and other information that was collected in part by the special grand jury.

posted by kirkaracha at 9:10 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]

If you're into this sort of thing, Fani Willis responded to Jim Jordan's letter about the Trump indictment. It's sort of a thing of beauty.

Those who wish to avoid felony charges in Fulton County, Georgia — including violations of Georgia RICO law — should not commit felonies in Fulton County, Georgia.

posted by kirkaracha at 9:14 AM on September 8, 2023 [12 favorites]

Those who wish to avoid felony charges in Fulton County, Georgia — including violations of Georgia RICO law — should not commit felonies in Fulton County, Georgia.

Honestly, as good of a burn line as that is, it's the part of Willis' response that kinda stuck in my craw, just because even in this case there should be a presumption of innocence. But it's still a good line (and the context makes her meaning pretty clear.)
posted by Navelgazer at 9:39 AM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]

I’m pretty sure that’s not how “presumption of innocence” works… The prosecution needs to be able to say “in our opinion, supported by the available evidence, defendant did [crimes]”, or else they’re never going to be able to do their job.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 9:50 AM on September 8, 2023 [15 favorites]

The Fulton County special purpose grand jury that investigated interference in Georgia’s 2020 presidential election recommended 39 indictments.
The recommendations — which included U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham, ex-Trump National Security Advisor Michael Flynn and former Georgia U.S. Sens. David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler — were contained in the 23-person jury’s final report [DocumentCloud], which was released in full on Friday.

This seems significant.... what's the process by which a recommended indictment is actually enacted?
posted by Rumple at 10:24 AM on September 8, 2023

I'd assume they looked at the vote split and assessed likelihood of securing a conviction (but IANAL).
posted by mazola at 10:27 AM on September 8, 2023

I dunno, maybe I'm just set up to feel nervous after so damn many NYT "you won't believe how normal this Nazi is" type puff pieces, but when I see someone going on and on about a judge's hobbies and how honorable and intelligent he is I tend to suspect he's going to be awful.

Maybe I'm wrong, but all those "conservative credentials" they brag about in the puff piece about him seem like massive red flags to me.

And I don't think I can ever believe that someone from the Federalist Society is anything but a die hard Republican fanatic who will twist the law into pretzels to achieve the optimal outcome for the Republican Party.
posted by sotonohito at 11:21 AM on September 8, 2023 [12 favorites]

This seems significant.... what's the process by which a recommended indictment is actually enacted?

From what I can tell from various news sources about this release, it's basically up to the DA to decide (at least in Georgia.)

(Also, I haven't seen any indications that Willis can't use the grand jury report for future indictments, so it might have been more about picking the people who she could most clearly tie together for this big RICO case, and then charge others later in separate indictments.)
posted by soundguy99 at 1:36 PM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]

"The major significance of the document in the long term may be that it shows that Willis could have been significantly more aggressive than she has been, in fact. However much of a bombshell her indictment has been, think how much more explosive it would have been had she included three sitting or former senators, Cleta Mitchell, Michael Flynn, and a raft of other Trump lawyers and fake electors. While Willis has faced criticism in public for being too aggressive, the pressures on her from the grand jury room seem to have been overwhelmingly in the other direction."

Five Observations About the Georgia Special Purpose Grand Jury Report [Lawfare].
posted by mazola at 2:41 PM on September 8, 2023 [9 favorites]

A federal judge has ruled against Meadows' request to move his Georgia case to federal court.
posted by Flunkie at 3:32 PM on September 8, 2023 [10 favorites]

“… who will twist the law into pretzels to achieve the optimal outcome for the Republican Party.”

I don’t disagree with this sentiment either generally or in this particular case - I know nothing about this judge. But it’s possible that the optimal outcome for the Republican Party here could actually include convictions.
posted by zoinks at 3:53 PM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

By my estimation, convictions are the only possible way for the party named "Republicans" to survive. If Trump wins, I figure there won't be any parties anymore, and if he loses, the US right will need a new identity.
posted by rhizome at 3:57 PM on September 8, 2023 [6 favorites]

Regarding Meadows, this is the thing that I still don't get and I've not found any comprehensible explanation - quoting that TPM article Flunkie linked, "Meadows, armed with attorney and former DOJ official George Terwilliger, had put forth a legitimate argument: that the activities with which he was charged in the indictment brought by Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis fell under his duties as a federal official."

HOW is that remotely a "legitimate" argument? Because even if he was acting within his supposed duties as chief of staff, he's still being charged with violating Georgia laws, and with violating laws that he pledged to uphold as a member of the executive branch. It's like a Mafia hit man being charged with murder and his defense is, "well I was just doing my job, which is being a hit man." Like, yeah, and? Whether you thought those were your duties or not, you still murdered someone, and that's what you're being charged with. That's not a defense. Violating the law enough to be charged is de facto not part of your duties as chief of staff, because your duties as chief of staff do not include breaking the law.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:59 PM on September 8, 2023 [9 favorites]

I think like a lot of strategies in the political realm, the drive is to reduce something to a value judgement (or possibly, technically, "a political question"), then argue about bias, evidence, etc. The "legitimacy" of that argument is that what his capital-d Duty is, is a matter of opinion. Hey, people tell him to do stuff, should he consult a lawyer 10 times a day? If they can divert the inquiry to what "duty" means (as if it hasn't been defined in precedent), then they have a way out. IANAL (or political scientist).
posted by rhizome at 4:09 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that it is a legitimate argument in the sense that alleged crimes committed in the context of executing the powers of a federal office are to be tried in federal court. The judge has disagreed with the idea that his alleged actions were within that context, and therefore he will be tried in the Georgia courts, not the federal courts.

It's not saying it's "legitimate" in the sense of "I am therefore innocent". In your mafia hitman analogy, it's more "The guy you say I murdered was murdered on federal property, so the state of Georgia has no right to try me (or anyone) for it. Only a federal court can try me for it."
posted by Flunkie at 4:13 PM on September 8, 2023 [8 favorites]

I think at best Meadows' argument would be that he was acting on orders of his boss, the POTUS at the time. I know there's the whole "following unlawful orders" argument against this, but I do really think that's what his whole defense is going to be. As I mentioned upthread, his legal team is signaling that his entire defense is going to be "Trump told me to do it".

I don't know how well this will hold, as I think [entirely not sure] there are statements on record in various places with Meadows forwarding parts of the conspiracy himself, but that's my understanding.
posted by hippybear at 4:15 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]

That is, you said "That's not a defense", and you're absolutely right... but it's not intended as a defense. It's intended as an argument to change the venue, and is a legitimate argument in that sense. The judge has heard this legitimate argument, and has ruled against it.
posted by Flunkie at 4:17 PM on September 8, 2023 [5 favorites]

I guess one thing is with this grand jury document revealed, there are now something like 20 people who have reason to give pause, because just because they were named and haven't been charged now doesn't mean they can't be charged later.

I suspect, if the main prosecution is successful, that's when we see a charge filed against Graham.
posted by hippybear at 4:46 PM on September 8, 2023 [7 favorites]

Thank you, Flunkie, that's the clearest explanation for Meadows' position I've heard, even from various supposed law-talking people.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:15 PM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]

he's still being charged with violating Georgia laws, and with violating laws that he pledged to uphold as a member of the executive branch. It's like a Mafia hit man being charged with murder and his defense is, "well I was just doing my job, which is being a hit man." Like, yeah, and? Whether you thought those were your duties or not, you still murdered someone, and that's what you're being charged with. That's not a defense.

Just to give an example of why this law exists, the opinion cites a case in which an FBI special agent was charged (in Georgia) with bribing a state court judge. The special agent successfully argued that the case should be removed to federal court because he was, at the time, working an investigation into state court judges who were believed to have previously accepted bribes. In other words, he was charged for participating in a sting operation he undertook as part of his duties.

The reason Meadows failed is because his duties do not involve being a member of a criminal conspiracy that exists for the benefit of TFG's reelection campaign. (Thank you, Hatch Act, for making it an easy call!)
posted by wierdo at 5:54 PM on September 8, 2023 [14 favorites]

I think it's telling that they felt the need to use the qualifier "legitimate" to "argument", since the majority of the arguments made by these folks are dishonest and in bad-faith. (i.e.: "illegitimate arguments").
posted by mikelieman at 2:12 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

A Trump interview with Hugh Hewitt (a very friendly interviewer who tries with limited success to get Trump to actually answer his questions)

Trump's Resilience Leaves Anxious GOP Donors in Despair and Denial (I have double-checked, and this story is in fact from 2023 and not 2015)
posted by box at 9:53 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

Have they considered NOT being Republicans and only getting 80% of what they want?

No, silly thought, absolutely impossible.
posted by Artw at 10:04 AM on September 9, 2023 [13 favorites]

Fani Willis is at it again, this time regarding Jeffrey Clark:

In attempting to make such a showing, the significant problem faced by this defendant is that he was explicitly told by his immediate superiors in the Department of Justice (1) that what he was attempting to do was outside the scope of his authority within the DOJ, (2) that he was actually attempting to take actions outside the authority of the DOJ as a whole, (3) that it was "entirely unacceptable," "inappropriate," and "irresponsible," (4) that "what he was proposing was nothing less than the Department meddling in the outcome of a presidential election," and, perhaps most crucially, (5) that he was making a central claim that was entirely untrue and "completely at odds" with the results of actual DOJ investigations. The defendant was told these things more than once.

It's almost as if she anticipated the possibility that these arguments would come up and, I don't know, actually prepared for it like a goddamned professional. The contrast with the clown caucus could hardly be more stark.
posted by wierdo at 11:38 AM on September 9, 2023 [23 favorites]

Donald Trump Made Millions Selling Merchandise with His Historic Mugshot, But Legal Expert Says He May Have Violated Copyright Law. Spectrum News: “You're prohibited from using it for a number of things without authorization,” [Case Western Reserve University’s School of Law professor] Rosenblatt said. “You’re prohibited from reproducing it, making a derivative work of it, distributing it without authorization, or that is to say distributing anything that isn't the one copy you already lawfully have, and various other things. Making a public display of it, making a public performance of it, which opens up all kinds of fascinating possibilities here.” Rosenblatt said in order to pursue a claim for copyright infringement, the owner of the copyright, who she said is likely the Fulton County Sheriff's Department, would have to be the one to sue.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:12 PM on September 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

Aren't government works by default public domain (I guess barring classified stuff and the like)? Or is that just the federal government?

In any case, I... am pretty sure I'm not exactly a big fan of the idea of cops making money off of someone who used their own mugshot commercially by suing them for copyright infringement.
posted by Flunkie at 2:57 PM on September 9, 2023

Nor am I.

But the grift biting back makes me chortle.
posted by Windopaene at 3:22 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

I woulda thought that it was a Son of Sam law situation (criminals can't profit off media depictions of their crimes), but hashtagshrugemoji.
posted by Etrigan at 3:40 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

Aren't government works by default public domain (I guess barring classified stuff and the like)? Or is that just the federal government?

Works of the US federal government are not eligible for copyright protection. Works of US state governments are eligible for copyright protection, unless the state itself passes laws placing their works in the public domain. In practice the works of three US states are in the public domain: California, Florida, and Massachusetts. However, there are some complexities, see: Copyright status of works by subnational governments of the United States.
posted by RichardP at 4:22 PM on September 9, 2023 [12 favorites]

Also cities (and presumably counties) are often protective of their copyright, as I found out when asking to use a bunch of photos the city of Chicago had made of old houses in the city.
posted by kristi at 5:07 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

There are also laws on the use of mug shots specifically in some places to prevent shady groups from posting your old mugshot on line and then charging a ~~ransom~~admin fee to take it down. Wouldn't surprise me if some of them are written such that posting your own mug shot for commercial purposes would be illegal.
posted by Mitheral at 5:24 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

In the context of photographs taken by law enforcement during the booking process, the author of the mugshot photograph is the law enforcement agency. Thus, two avenues exist for copyright protection of mugshots. First, law enforcement agencies could commit to protecting mugshot images by enforcing the copyright against online publishers themselves, discussed more in Section III(c) below. Or, second, by transferring the copyright to the arrestee through the copyright transfer mechanism provided by 17 U.S.C. § 201(d) for individual enforcement. Transferring copyright ownership does not require compliance with extensive formalities but requires a signed instrument of conveyance showing the intent to transfer the copyright to another party. -- Amanda Cheek, Innocent Until Proven Posted: Regulating Online Mugshot Publication with Intellectual Property Law, 30 J. Intell. Prop. L. 112 (2022). [see also Jason Tashea, Use copyright law to battle mugshot extortion, A.B.A J. (Mar. 27, 2018, 9:23 AM)]

Law enforcement agencies rarely enforce their copyright
vs.
One mugshot made millions, and this is an expensive trial for Fulton County
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:05 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

Trump campaign manager Chris LaCivita warned sellers of merchandise using the Trump mugshot of the dire consequences they will face if they exploit this suddenly famous photo. This warning, made on the platform formerly known as Twitter, includes icons of eleven police siren icons and reads: If you are a campaign, PAC, scammer and you try raising money off the mugshot of @theRealDonaldTrump and you have not received prior permission... WE ARE COMING AFTER YOU you will NOT SCAM DONORS. (Can Trump Sue Over The Use Of His Mug Shot On Merchandise? Lexology, Aug. 30, 2023; LaCivita's post was on Aug. 25) One final note: The official Trump 2024 site offers items that, if Trump were to prevail on his mug shot claim, theoretically could lead to claims by others. For example, there is a beverage cooler set that shows pictures of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris with the legend "The Only Thing Worse Than a Warm Beer..." So Trump better be careful. I would hate to see his campaign disrupted by legal matters.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:06 PM on September 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

Trump asks Judge Tanya Chutkan to recuse herself from federal 2020 election subversion case (CNN, Sept. 11, 2023) Trump, in a new court filing Monday, pointed to comments that Chutkan made in cases involving January 6 US Capitol rioters.

Prev. at CNN, Aug. 1 2023: "Chutkan, like many other federal judges in Washington, has presided over dozens of criminal cases against alleged January 6 rioters. She has been outspoken about the riot at several sentencing hearings – calling the violence an assault on American democracy and warning of future danger from political violence – and has repeatedly gone over what prosecutors have requested for convicted rioters’ prison sentences."
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:07 PM on September 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

Hilarious. The judge should totally recuse herself because it appears like she is anti-insurrection and is going to take this case seriously and I don't like that.
posted by Literaryhero at 4:59 PM on September 11, 2023 [17 favorites]

A distinct anti-crime bias.
posted by sebastienbailard at 5:12 PM on September 11, 2023 [24 favorites]

I love the sound of illegitimate entitlement being cancelled. :-)
posted by Pouteria at 6:33 PM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]

How could I possibly get a fair trial when this judge is prejudiced against murders on Fifth Avenue?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:07 PM on September 11, 2023 [20 favorites]

Before you recuse me, take a look at yourself.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:51 AM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]

This made me howl with laughter.
posted by edithkeeler at 8:38 AM on September 13, 2023 [22 favorites]

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