The Trust Game
August 18, 2023 1:05 PM Subscribe
It makes sense to be wary of scams: you should not reply to your spam emails, no matter how much you’d like to help a prince retrieve millions from his trust fund. But there are costs to excessive scepticism, too, for both the self and the social order. A diverse body of evidence from psychology and behavioural economics can help us understand those costs. On a personal level, the fear of being suckered can encourage someone to be risk averse, to avoid the kind of cooperation that is essential to any new venture. At the systemic level, the stakes of distrust are even higher. from ‘Wait, am I the fool here?’ [Grauniad; ungated]
A lot of the evidence for this kneejerk aversion comes from experimental economics studies that try to pare down human transactions to their bare bones.So no evidence, then.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:34 PM on August 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
Ok, but for the record the amount of much I'd like to help any prince retrieve millions from his trust fund is zero.
posted by solotoro at 1:41 PM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by solotoro at 1:41 PM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Sounds like you’ve succumbed to the toxic skepticism described in this article. Why not try trusting a little and sending me $10,000 to help my oil executive associate in Nigeria move $10 million out of his country in exchange for 20% of that sum?
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:48 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:48 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
why our fears of being scammed are corrosive and damaging
This is victim blaming. The people doing the corroding and causing the damage are the people who aren't just scamming people, but who have mechanized and and automated the scamming process.
I don't answer my phone not because I'm mistrustful, bit because literally nobody in years has called my phone who was not trying to rob me.
posted by mhoye at 1:48 PM on August 18, 2023 [44 favorites]
This is victim blaming. The people doing the corroding and causing the damage are the people who aren't just scamming people, but who have mechanized and and automated the scamming process.
I don't answer my phone not because I'm mistrustful, bit because literally nobody in years has called my phone who was not trying to rob me.
posted by mhoye at 1:48 PM on August 18, 2023 [44 favorites]
Sounds like a feature and not a bug, under capitalism.
posted by Reyturner at 1:56 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Reyturner at 1:56 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not convinced.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:57 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:57 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
why our fears of being scammed are corrosive and damaging
This is victim blaming.
Well...not unless you consider the many, many middle-class-and-up people who refuse to give money to panhandlers because "they're just going to use it on drugs/alcohol" to be victims in that scenario. It is true that the U.S. is trying to return to the glory days of the 19th century in terms of capitalism being little other than competing scams, but it is also true that low-trust societies tend to be tough in live in.
posted by praemunire at 2:05 PM on August 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
This is victim blaming.
Well...not unless you consider the many, many middle-class-and-up people who refuse to give money to panhandlers because "they're just going to use it on drugs/alcohol" to be victims in that scenario. It is true that the U.S. is trying to return to the glory days of the 19th century in terms of capitalism being little other than competing scams, but it is also true that low-trust societies tend to be tough in live in.
posted by praemunire at 2:05 PM on August 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
Also:
This is that classic Economist Brain bullshit that will tell you logically being robbed of $100 at gunpoint is the same as losing $100 in a voluntary bet because the end loss amount is the same.
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:07 PM on August 18, 2023 [26 favorites]
Other research complements this finding. A person who might be willing to cover for a weak partner on a two-person task will slack off, on principle, when dealing with a lazy partner. Research participants will invest more money on a risky startup if they fear the founders might be misguided than they will if they fear the founders might be fraudsters, even if the risk level is exactly the same.These are not the same at all. Someone you know to be trying their best but not quite doing what needs to be done is not the same experience as someone you know could be doing more but just isn’t. Thinking founders are a little nuts but deciding to throw in anyway is not the same experience as thinking the founders are con artists but giving them money for some reason.
This is that classic Economist Brain bullshit that will tell you logically being robbed of $100 at gunpoint is the same as losing $100 in a voluntary bet because the end loss amount is the same.
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:07 PM on August 18, 2023 [26 favorites]
This is victim blaming.
That's not what the article says at all. The thesis is in fact that a fear of being scammed is used to reinforce injustice.
posted by zompist at 2:20 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's not what the article says at all. The thesis is in fact that a fear of being scammed is used to reinforce injustice.
posted by zompist at 2:20 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wish the article had spent more time acknowledging that the people most likely to assume they’re getting “ripped off” by marginalized groups are such easy marks for actual scams.
Living in the middle of the MLM capital of the universe, I’ve seen a pretty strong correlation between “people who fall for ridiculously unsophisticated rackets” and “people who despise the idea of a social safety net.”
I don’t think scam skepticism is what poisoned those people. I think self-serving bias and just-world fallacy did it. I think prosperity gospel infected their brains and their hearts.
I know there are exceptions, of course — who among us hasn’t fallen for a pig in a poke? — but from what I’ve seen, the most credulous people are often the most contemptuous. Appeal to their aggrieved entitlement! Put on a clean, ill-fitting button-down, use the word “deserve” a whole bunch, and they’ll happily give you their last dime.
When they finally realize they’re broke, they’ll blame it all on the Black single mom in their head. “She can’t be THAT POOR! She probably has a REFRIGERATOR!”
posted by armeowda at 3:24 PM on August 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
Living in the middle of the MLM capital of the universe, I’ve seen a pretty strong correlation between “people who fall for ridiculously unsophisticated rackets” and “people who despise the idea of a social safety net.”
I don’t think scam skepticism is what poisoned those people. I think self-serving bias and just-world fallacy did it. I think prosperity gospel infected their brains and their hearts.
I know there are exceptions, of course — who among us hasn’t fallen for a pig in a poke? — but from what I’ve seen, the most credulous people are often the most contemptuous. Appeal to their aggrieved entitlement! Put on a clean, ill-fitting button-down, use the word “deserve” a whole bunch, and they’ll happily give you their last dime.
When they finally realize they’re broke, they’ll blame it all on the Black single mom in their head. “She can’t be THAT POOR! She probably has a REFRIGERATOR!”
posted by armeowda at 3:24 PM on August 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
who among us hasn’t fallen for a pig in a poke?
I fell over one once, does that count?
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:10 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I fell over one once, does that count?
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:10 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
was any poking involved?
posted by clavdivs at 5:38 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 5:38 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't answer my phone not because I'm mistrustful, bit because literally nobody in years has called my phone who was not trying to rob me.
I haven't reached that point quite yet; the last week has seen landline (!) calls from my main client, my mother-in-law, and a hospital rescheduling a radiology appointment, plus two Private Callers who were trying to rob me (I didn't answer and they left no messages, but they wouldn't, would they?).
Last year I did get a voicemail from a cheerful fellow name of Jeff calling on behalf of the Jehovah's Witnesses calling with the good news that the time of the wicked will end "in a little while" and then everything will be awesome. This is great news, I suppose, and although Jeff failed to cite his sources, scholars will recognize that as Psalms 37:10 (the following verse is one of the Greatest Hits -- it's the bit about the meek inheriting the earth).
Sadly, Jeff did not leave a number to call him back; my first question would have been, "Jeff, Psalms was written about 2600 years ago; how much longer is this 'little while?'"
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:40 PM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I haven't reached that point quite yet; the last week has seen landline (!) calls from my main client, my mother-in-law, and a hospital rescheduling a radiology appointment, plus two Private Callers who were trying to rob me (I didn't answer and they left no messages, but they wouldn't, would they?).
Last year I did get a voicemail from a cheerful fellow name of Jeff calling on behalf of the Jehovah's Witnesses calling with the good news that the time of the wicked will end "in a little while" and then everything will be awesome. This is great news, I suppose, and although Jeff failed to cite his sources, scholars will recognize that as Psalms 37:10 (the following verse is one of the Greatest Hits -- it's the bit about the meek inheriting the earth).
Sadly, Jeff did not leave a number to call him back; my first question would have been, "Jeff, Psalms was written about 2600 years ago; how much longer is this 'little while?'"
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:40 PM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well...not unless you consider the many, many middle-class-and-up people who refuse to give money to panhandlers because "they're just going to use it on drugs/alcohol" to be victims in that scenario. It is true that the U.S. is trying to return to the glory days of the 19th century in terms of capitalism being little other than competing scams, but it is also true that low-trust societies tend to be tough in live in.
That ship sailed a long time ago.
The city I live in has multiple internet-famous IRL scammers, the most prominent of whom is probably Elliot Davis. He approaches you while wearing a suit and tie, telling the story of his car getting a flat on his way to a job interview, and do you have $25 for a can of fix-a-flat?
I'm happy giving money to folks who ask for it, but if the ask is any more complicated than "can I have $1 for this specific thing?" I'm generally going to assume there's shenanigans afoot. God help me if my phone rings with a number from my own area code, where I lived in 2004 and now know precisely two living humans, aside from whom it's 100% scammers.
posted by Mayor West at 5:53 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
That ship sailed a long time ago.
The city I live in has multiple internet-famous IRL scammers, the most prominent of whom is probably Elliot Davis. He approaches you while wearing a suit and tie, telling the story of his car getting a flat on his way to a job interview, and do you have $25 for a can of fix-a-flat?
I'm happy giving money to folks who ask for it, but if the ask is any more complicated than "can I have $1 for this specific thing?" I'm generally going to assume there's shenanigans afoot. God help me if my phone rings with a number from my own area code, where I lived in 2004 and now know precisely two living humans, aside from whom it's 100% scammers.
posted by Mayor West at 5:53 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
was any poking involved?
A gentleman never tells.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:06 PM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
A gentleman never tells.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:06 PM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Living in the middle of the MLM capital of the universe, I’ve seen a pretty strong correlation between “people who fall for ridiculously unsophisticated rackets” and “people who despise the idea of a social safety net.”
Are they... just....stupid? Social safety nets are often couched in "taking food out of your mouths!" terms by opponents, right? So maybe are they just falling for appeals to emotion?
I am very afraid of getting old, forgetting the skepticism I hold so dear, and falling for some basic scam that my hypothetical grandchildren will roll their eyes at in intelligent superiority.
It would be comforting if people who fall for scams are just dumber.
(I did NOT very briefly fall for a "pls call us, you have been SERVED" voicemail. Anyone saying so is lying.)
posted by Baethan at 6:12 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are they... just....stupid? Social safety nets are often couched in "taking food out of your mouths!" terms by opponents, right? So maybe are they just falling for appeals to emotion?
I am very afraid of getting old, forgetting the skepticism I hold so dear, and falling for some basic scam that my hypothetical grandchildren will roll their eyes at in intelligent superiority.
It would be comforting if people who fall for scams are just dumber.
(I did NOT very briefly fall for a "pls call us, you have been SERVED" voicemail. Anyone saying so is lying.)
posted by Baethan at 6:12 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is victim blaming. The people doing the corroding and causing the damage are the people who aren't just scamming people, but who have mechanized and and automated the scamming process.
When it comes to the Public Broadcasting Service, I am sick of these motherfucking frauds on this motherfucking so-called public network! First coming to mind being Suze Orman, Mark Hyman and, worst of the worst of their ilk, Daniel G. Amen and his phony ass cure for autism -- like we need one. But wait -- there's more! A seemingly endless supply thereof. Real doctors, economists and scientists hate these people.
What we need is an eternal cure for fraudster infomercials. Now there's a pledge drive for which I would sell a kidney. Open a window. Or the landing gear -- it's time to shove all these lying assholes out the access panels sans psrachutes. Image this motherfucker!
posted by y2karl at 6:42 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
When it comes to the Public Broadcasting Service, I am sick of these motherfucking frauds on this motherfucking so-called public network! First coming to mind being Suze Orman, Mark Hyman and, worst of the worst of their ilk, Daniel G. Amen and his phony ass cure for autism -- like we need one. But wait -- there's more! A seemingly endless supply thereof. Real doctors, economists and scientists hate these people.
What we need is an eternal cure for fraudster infomercials. Now there's a pledge drive for which I would sell a kidney. Open a window. Or the landing gear -- it's time to shove all these lying assholes out the access panels sans psrachutes. Image this motherfucker!
posted by y2karl at 6:42 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are they... just....stupid? Social safety nets are often couched in "taking food out of your mouths!" terms by opponents, right? So maybe are they just falling for appeals to emotion?
Gullible, certainly, which is the fruit of decades of anti-intellectualism dismantling public education. But also, there’s the fingerpointing-fundie angle. Pick a deadly sin, any deadly sin, and someone out there has a grift tailor-made for zealots who don’t believe it applies to them.
Dubya won re-election in ‘04 by mining wrath in the form of xenophobia and homophobia. Pyramid schemes tap into both greed and sloth. Ashley Madison was 100% selling old white guys’ lust back to them, and sure enough, they ran ads on Fox News. I could go on.
Now, obviously I’ve seen people on the left fall for humiliating schemes, too. But there’s a difference between blowing a hundred bucks on a National Library of Poetry scam and charging thousands on a worthless LuLaRoe inventory.
My main takeaway is, if you’re a little bit skeptical and a lot compassionate, you’ll get suckered once in a while, just like anybody. But if you’re confident that being the World’s Best race/gender/religion has made you Innately Very Smart, you’ll be a con artist’s dream. If you also believe that only (other) disadvantaged people are Out to Get You, you’ll fall for anyone in a rayon tie who tells you you’re Not Like Other Proles.
That’s the foundation of MLMs. It’s also how we got TFG.
posted by armeowda at 8:16 PM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
Gullible, certainly, which is the fruit of decades of anti-intellectualism dismantling public education. But also, there’s the fingerpointing-fundie angle. Pick a deadly sin, any deadly sin, and someone out there has a grift tailor-made for zealots who don’t believe it applies to them.
Dubya won re-election in ‘04 by mining wrath in the form of xenophobia and homophobia. Pyramid schemes tap into both greed and sloth. Ashley Madison was 100% selling old white guys’ lust back to them, and sure enough, they ran ads on Fox News. I could go on.
Now, obviously I’ve seen people on the left fall for humiliating schemes, too. But there’s a difference between blowing a hundred bucks on a National Library of Poetry scam and charging thousands on a worthless LuLaRoe inventory.
My main takeaway is, if you’re a little bit skeptical and a lot compassionate, you’ll get suckered once in a while, just like anybody. But if you’re confident that being the World’s Best race/gender/religion has made you Innately Very Smart, you’ll be a con artist’s dream. If you also believe that only (other) disadvantaged people are Out to Get You, you’ll fall for anyone in a rayon tie who tells you you’re Not Like Other Proles.
That’s the foundation of MLMs. It’s also how we got TFG.
posted by armeowda at 8:16 PM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
The city I live in has multiple internet-famous IRL scammers, the most prominent of whom is probably Elliot Davis.
I live in New York City.
I'm happy giving money to folks who ask for it, but if the ask is any more complicated than "can I have $1 for this specific thing?" I'm generally going to assume there's shenanigans afoot.
Well...so?
I don't like being lied to; most people don't. On the street, it irritates me. Nonetheless, a world in which everyone has hardened their hearts against strangers seeking help is a horrible one I don't want to live in. I've accepted that from time to time people seeking my aid will be lying to me. They may even be ripping me off. C'est la vie. Price of civilization.
(One might also stop to consider what it is about oneself and the class one belongs to a scammer has observed that makes him think he must tell that particular story rather than confess his needs honestly.)
posted by praemunire at 8:54 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I live in New York City.
I'm happy giving money to folks who ask for it, but if the ask is any more complicated than "can I have $1 for this specific thing?" I'm generally going to assume there's shenanigans afoot.
Well...so?
I don't like being lied to; most people don't. On the street, it irritates me. Nonetheless, a world in which everyone has hardened their hearts against strangers seeking help is a horrible one I don't want to live in. I've accepted that from time to time people seeking my aid will be lying to me. They may even be ripping me off. C'est la vie. Price of civilization.
(One might also stop to consider what it is about oneself and the class one belongs to a scammer has observed that makes him think he must tell that particular story rather than confess his needs honestly.)
posted by praemunire at 8:54 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
> a world in which everyone has hardened their hearts against strangers seeking help is a horrible one I don't want to live in.
I think there are good workarounds available when we don't want to trust strangers making direct requests. We can reach people via institutions: shelters, houses of worship, NGOs, etc.
To give a slightly tongue-in-cheek hyperbolic example, you wouldn't donate blood to random strangers who approached you on the streets with a syringe, right? You'd donate blood to the Red Cross instead because the risk is infinitely lower. And that's a generous act too, it doesn't count as hardening one's heart! We're just... outsourcing risk management and safety services to organizations who have the capacity to perform it on our behalf, that's all. The kind of overly simple psychology games and studies described in this article fall woefully short of describing all the ways humans have developed to counteract the inherently lower trust strangers elicit.
(I grew up in Indian cities where begging on the streets is an organized human trafficking industry run by literally mobsters. So I kind of see panhandling even in the US as something we are all duty bound to discourage, lol. I know it's not a popular opinion but you can see what I'm getting at - even in India it's not like people just harden their hearts and refuse to help anybody. We just develop safer ways to help.)
posted by MiraK at 10:07 PM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think there are good workarounds available when we don't want to trust strangers making direct requests. We can reach people via institutions: shelters, houses of worship, NGOs, etc.
To give a slightly tongue-in-cheek hyperbolic example, you wouldn't donate blood to random strangers who approached you on the streets with a syringe, right? You'd donate blood to the Red Cross instead because the risk is infinitely lower. And that's a generous act too, it doesn't count as hardening one's heart! We're just... outsourcing risk management and safety services to organizations who have the capacity to perform it on our behalf, that's all. The kind of overly simple psychology games and studies described in this article fall woefully short of describing all the ways humans have developed to counteract the inherently lower trust strangers elicit.
(I grew up in Indian cities where begging on the streets is an organized human trafficking industry run by literally mobsters. So I kind of see panhandling even in the US as something we are all duty bound to discourage, lol. I know it's not a popular opinion but you can see what I'm getting at - even in India it's not like people just harden their hearts and refuse to help anybody. We just develop safer ways to help.)
posted by MiraK at 10:07 PM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
Personally I've seen how the trust game works, and doesn't work.
I rented out a gorgeous property to someone who got divorced and had to leave their family home as it got sold to split the assets, she had no work history since she was housewife, and no current employment. It felt good to do something nice for someone in need until she got back on her feet again.
But another time, wow I got burned badly. This person spun a sweet story about trying to get back on her feet after separation that turned out to be full of lies. They lived an opulent life, had bags full of expensive clothes, shoes, handbags, jewelry, electronics, and had three large screen installed into the walls, but chose not to pay rent, and exploited the extremely renter friendly laws that makes eviction almost impossible. She finally left after living there rent free for 9 months, I suspect only because the law had caught up to her - the sheriff had found out where she lived and was after her for some other offenses. Ultimately I was left with about $14,000 in unpaid rent and damages to clean up, I had to spend days sorting through and throwing out nearly half a tonne of possessions she left behind and then weeks repairing the holes in the walls and other damages she had caused before it could be rented out again.
I'm never renting a place to anyone without a full time job and $250,000 in full time salaried incomes with solid employer and landlord references. (that's what my current tenants make). At least until the law changes to make evictions happen within 1-2 months instead of almost a year, the risk is simply too great otherwise. It's better to leave the property empty than take a chance on someone on a low to mid income - at least I could get a court order to garnish their wages if I know they're earning a good income from a big employer if they tried anything funny.
Basically, what MiraK says - the good work is done via institutions. Pay your taxes, support your volunteer organizations, but otherwise in your own personal life you have to protect yourself.
posted by xdvesper at 10:36 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I rented out a gorgeous property to someone who got divorced and had to leave their family home as it got sold to split the assets, she had no work history since she was housewife, and no current employment. It felt good to do something nice for someone in need until she got back on her feet again.
But another time, wow I got burned badly. This person spun a sweet story about trying to get back on her feet after separation that turned out to be full of lies. They lived an opulent life, had bags full of expensive clothes, shoes, handbags, jewelry, electronics, and had three large screen installed into the walls, but chose not to pay rent, and exploited the extremely renter friendly laws that makes eviction almost impossible. She finally left after living there rent free for 9 months, I suspect only because the law had caught up to her - the sheriff had found out where she lived and was after her for some other offenses. Ultimately I was left with about $14,000 in unpaid rent and damages to clean up, I had to spend days sorting through and throwing out nearly half a tonne of possessions she left behind and then weeks repairing the holes in the walls and other damages she had caused before it could be rented out again.
I'm never renting a place to anyone without a full time job and $250,000 in full time salaried incomes with solid employer and landlord references. (that's what my current tenants make). At least until the law changes to make evictions happen within 1-2 months instead of almost a year, the risk is simply too great otherwise. It's better to leave the property empty than take a chance on someone on a low to mid income - at least I could get a court order to garnish their wages if I know they're earning a good income from a big employer if they tried anything funny.
Basically, what MiraK says - the good work is done via institutions. Pay your taxes, support your volunteer organizations, but otherwise in your own personal life you have to protect yourself.
posted by xdvesper at 10:36 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think there are good workarounds available when we don't want to trust strangers making direct requests. We can reach people via institutions: shelters, houses of worship, NGOs, etc.
I think we all know how flawed those institutions are and how they impose their own costs on the donation process. I don't make the majority of my monthly donations to strangers on the street (or strangers with Gofundmes), but I do give some, same way I try to take some produce to the community fridge. With the full knowledge that some of those people are not going to use the money the way they represent they are. I don't care for the edge of fear of and distaste for the needy that the rhetoric of giving only institutionally often (not always) has. I don't claim that my lizard brain is free of it, but I don't approve of it and I want to resist whenever possible.
There can be no mutual aid without mutual trust.
posted by praemunire at 11:32 PM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think we all know how flawed those institutions are and how they impose their own costs on the donation process. I don't make the majority of my monthly donations to strangers on the street (or strangers with Gofundmes), but I do give some, same way I try to take some produce to the community fridge. With the full knowledge that some of those people are not going to use the money the way they represent they are. I don't care for the edge of fear of and distaste for the needy that the rhetoric of giving only institutionally often (not always) has. I don't claim that my lizard brain is free of it, but I don't approve of it and I want to resist whenever possible.
There can be no mutual aid without mutual trust.
posted by praemunire at 11:32 PM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't like being lied to; most people don't. On the street, it irritates me. Nonetheless, a world in which everyone has hardened their hearts against strangers seeking help is a horrible one I don't want to live in. I've accepted that from time to time people seeking my aid will be lying to me. They may even be ripping me off. C'est la vie. Price of civilization.
This actual problem here is people who convince themselves that they are doing the panhandler a favor by not giving them money for drugs. The only questions you have to ask yourself are “would this person be happy to have some money?” and “do I have some money that I feel like giving away?” There’s no need to suspend disbelief about their intentions, or to convince yourself that this is a weighty moral decision.
posted by atoxyl at 12:44 AM on August 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
This actual problem here is people who convince themselves that they are doing the panhandler a favor by not giving them money for drugs. The only questions you have to ask yourself are “would this person be happy to have some money?” and “do I have some money that I feel like giving away?” There’s no need to suspend disbelief about their intentions, or to convince yourself that this is a weighty moral decision.
posted by atoxyl at 12:44 AM on August 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
By coincidence I just listened to a ½ hr BBC podcast Please, I beg you about how a leap of trust alters the lives of two people connected by the internet: one in Utah, the other in Liberia.
posted by BobTheScientist at 3:23 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by BobTheScientist at 3:23 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I did NOT very briefly fall for a "pls call us, you have been SERVED" voicemail. Anyone saying so is lying.)
I got a text from someone who wants to talk to me about... My dearly departed mother's old reverse-mortgaged, zero-equity property in Florida. I sent back, "You are welcome to send certified mail to PO Box... Albany NY, 12203.", and then when they persisted "Do you have an email?" I repeated "You are welcome to send certified mail to..." and then blocked them.
posted by mikelieman at 3:53 AM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I got a text from someone who wants to talk to me about... My dearly departed mother's old reverse-mortgaged, zero-equity property in Florida. I sent back, "You are welcome to send certified mail to PO Box... Albany NY, 12203.", and then when they persisted "Do you have an email?" I repeated "You are welcome to send certified mail to..." and then blocked them.
posted by mikelieman at 3:53 AM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
My bank cold-called me once, to warn me of some suspicious activity on my CARD. Per their standard "verify your identity" thing, they asked me questions to ascertain that I am in fact me. I pointed out that they had called me, they should be proving their identity. They said something about policy or the law. I told them to fuck off, but I did also go suspend my card while I tried to figure out if this time was the exception it turned out to be (I have had very similar calls from scammers before, and didn't wait in the line long enough on this one to find out whether they were going to ask me account numbers and PIN).
This anecdote is about that time my actual bank gave cover to scammers, by cold calling me and asking me personal details.
I should switch bank.
posted by Dysk at 5:01 AM on August 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
This anecdote is about that time my actual bank gave cover to scammers, by cold calling me and asking me personal details.
I should switch bank.
posted by Dysk at 5:01 AM on August 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
This anecdote is about that time my actual bank gave cover to scammers, by cold calling me and asking me personal details.
There are some incredibly naive corporations out there.
I once got a call from someone purporting to be from a private hospital, who wanted to give me a refund on some fees that they figured out I overpaid, and would I please recite my credit card number to them over the phone so they could process my refund?
Incredibly enough... it turned out to be legitimate. What I had paid them previously was their calculation of however much my insurer would cover, it turns out my insurer covered more, so they were returning the extra cash...
posted by xdvesper at 5:10 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are some incredibly naive corporations out there.
I once got a call from someone purporting to be from a private hospital, who wanted to give me a refund on some fees that they figured out I overpaid, and would I please recite my credit card number to them over the phone so they could process my refund?
Incredibly enough... it turned out to be legitimate. What I had paid them previously was their calculation of however much my insurer would cover, it turns out my insurer covered more, so they were returning the extra cash...
posted by xdvesper at 5:10 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
This actual problem here is people who convince themselves that they are doing the panhandler a favor by not giving them money for drugs. The only questions you have to ask yourself are “would this person be happy to have some money?” and “do I have some money that I feel like giving away?”
As I mentioned above, there are entire countries where beggars on the street are literally an organized human trafficking operation. The blind child who comes up to your car at a stop light will surely be very happy with the money you give him, because it helps him meet his quota with his boss, the low level mafia guy who kidnapped the kid from his parents and deliberately blinded him to make him a more sympathetic beggar. I have some money that I feel like giving away but Jesus fucking Christ I would rather die than give it to this child, or any others like him.
It seems to me that Americans often confuse thoughtlessly giving money away to anyone who asks, with morality (or perhaps more accurately, we think people who *refuse* to thoughtlessly give money away when asked, are immoral). I don't think there's anything immoral about refusing to give money to panhandlers - on the contrary it's much more moral to donate that money through institutions which can direct the money in safer and more verified ways.
posted by MiraK at 6:09 AM on August 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
As I mentioned above, there are entire countries where beggars on the street are literally an organized human trafficking operation. The blind child who comes up to your car at a stop light will surely be very happy with the money you give him, because it helps him meet his quota with his boss, the low level mafia guy who kidnapped the kid from his parents and deliberately blinded him to make him a more sympathetic beggar. I have some money that I feel like giving away but Jesus fucking Christ I would rather die than give it to this child, or any others like him.
It seems to me that Americans often confuse thoughtlessly giving money away to anyone who asks, with morality (or perhaps more accurately, we think people who *refuse* to thoughtlessly give money away when asked, are immoral). I don't think there's anything immoral about refusing to give money to panhandlers - on the contrary it's much more moral to donate that money through institutions which can direct the money in safer and more verified ways.
posted by MiraK at 6:09 AM on August 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you're in a country where that is not how panhandling operates, it seems base your actions in an irrelevant context. It makes as much sense as saying the homeless in America must be so by choice, because there are other countries where there is a functioning welfare state that would prevent it. Great, but the homeless in America aren't in that country, so treating them as though they are is nonsensical. Just like American panhandlers aren't organised crime, so insisting that panhandling should be discouraged because it's problematic in other countries is nonsense.
posted by Dysk at 6:28 AM on August 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 6:28 AM on August 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
If you're in a country where that is not how panhandling operates
That's just it, though. The countries where things operate this way now, were once not this way. The countries where this isn't how panhandling operates, are also usually countries where internet pranksters and other scam-for-clicks artists are increasingly common. There is a real cumulative cost to choosing to put our charity dollars towards panhandlers as opposed to robust institutions and verified charitable organizations.
But I do get it, I'm not knocking anyone for it. Giving money to panhandlers is never about being reasonable or logical or efficient. It's about the moment of empathy, the human connection, the immediate reward of directly helping this person now. This is to charity is as having a drink with a friend is to nourishment. And that's fine, the drink is great. But you don't turn around and call people who don't drink "immoral", you know?
posted by MiraK at 6:51 AM on August 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
For years when I walked my commute downtown, a small but vocal subset of beggars here wore scrubs or suits and opened their pitches with “Don’t worry, I’m not homeless!” Then they’d follow with some version of the shopworn “just need gas/transit fare” story.
I guess that’s how you get red state folks to open their wallets for the “deserving.” (“I don’t have any cash; can I buy you a train ticket?” went over about as well as you’d expect.)
posted by armeowda at 9:21 AM on August 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I guess that’s how you get red state folks to open their wallets for the “deserving.” (“I don’t have any cash; can I buy you a train ticket?” went over about as well as you’d expect.)
posted by armeowda at 9:21 AM on August 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I give money to the homeless around here because, little as I have, they need it more than I do. Fair play to 'em if they spend it on Special Brew or whatever, it's no less responsible than what I'd probably do with it.
I don't give to organised charities because the person working the phone bank to take my donation is already wealthier than I, by dint of being employed and employable, and I don't want to be paying their wages from my much smaller pittance. I resent them asking me. I want the money to flow down, not up.
posted by Dysk at 9:30 AM on August 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't give to organised charities because the person working the phone bank to take my donation is already wealthier than I, by dint of being employed and employable, and I don't want to be paying their wages from my much smaller pittance. I resent them asking me. I want the money to flow down, not up.
posted by Dysk at 9:30 AM on August 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
So in summary, I could not disagree more with this assessment:
This is to charity is as having a drink with a friend is to nourishment.
posted by Dysk at 9:32 AM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is to charity is as having a drink with a friend is to nourishment.
posted by Dysk at 9:32 AM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Giving money to panhandlers is never about being reasonable or logical or efficient. It's about the moment of empathy, the human connection, the immediate reward of directly helping this person now.
I understand where you are coming from, but you should also understand that there is a significant minority of people who find themselves effectively unable to access more formal systems of assistance. These are real people experiencing real suffering and real injustice. Because they are deeply troubled, the most "reasonable or logical or efficient" means of help often simply do not reach them. Money in hand does something for them.
Also, the number of organizations that provide plain old cash is genuinely low. Imagine trying to put your own life together based only on other people's assessment of what your needs are, in kind. Let's assume that your food and rent are somehow fully covered (they're not). How many things did you buy this month that were genuinely useful or just pleasant to have that simply would not have reached you through some donor organization because they are not commonly given away in the specific form you need them? How would you like dressing only from a limited selection of others' castoffs? Not being able to choose the books you want to have?
So, no, I don't regard giving to panhandlers as an emotional indulgence, or even (only) part of a practice of trying to cultivate practical empathy. I consider it practical aid. If it makes it easier, think about the community fridge. We have a formal system of food stamps in this country, and any number of informal charitable means of feeding people. Nonetheless, destitute people do go hungry for any number of reasons that make it hard to get (enough) food stamps or deal with soup kitchens, and they do go long periods without really just getting to prepare and eat something the way they like it. Community fridges (help) serve these people. But you can't have them if people don't trust that randos with enough won't just clean them out, or even those without enough won't take more than a reasonable fair share. (Which, sadly, does happen. There's a sort of thieves' market not too far from a couple of fridges in my neighborhood and you can see some items that seem to come from there. So I tend to bring produce rather than packaged items that are more desirable to sell. But I still do try. That's the point. No trust, no fridges.)
posted by praemunire at 10:02 AM on August 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
I understand where you are coming from, but you should also understand that there is a significant minority of people who find themselves effectively unable to access more formal systems of assistance. These are real people experiencing real suffering and real injustice. Because they are deeply troubled, the most "reasonable or logical or efficient" means of help often simply do not reach them. Money in hand does something for them.
Also, the number of organizations that provide plain old cash is genuinely low. Imagine trying to put your own life together based only on other people's assessment of what your needs are, in kind. Let's assume that your food and rent are somehow fully covered (they're not). How many things did you buy this month that were genuinely useful or just pleasant to have that simply would not have reached you through some donor organization because they are not commonly given away in the specific form you need them? How would you like dressing only from a limited selection of others' castoffs? Not being able to choose the books you want to have?
So, no, I don't regard giving to panhandlers as an emotional indulgence, or even (only) part of a practice of trying to cultivate practical empathy. I consider it practical aid. If it makes it easier, think about the community fridge. We have a formal system of food stamps in this country, and any number of informal charitable means of feeding people. Nonetheless, destitute people do go hungry for any number of reasons that make it hard to get (enough) food stamps or deal with soup kitchens, and they do go long periods without really just getting to prepare and eat something the way they like it. Community fridges (help) serve these people. But you can't have them if people don't trust that randos with enough won't just clean them out, or even those without enough won't take more than a reasonable fair share. (Which, sadly, does happen. There's a sort of thieves' market not too far from a couple of fridges in my neighborhood and you can see some items that seem to come from there. So I tend to bring produce rather than packaged items that are more desirable to sell. But I still do try. That's the point. No trust, no fridges.)
posted by praemunire at 10:02 AM on August 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm all for charity. Organized assistance sounds like the most effective way to reach the most people. However, in this country, whether it's so-called non-profit or corporate, the management of these organizations are making bank.
So screw 'em. My pockets are dry. I still want to help, but unless I can see exactly where my time, money, and effort are going, forget it.
Charity is a moot point anyway in this house. With all the cardiac, pulmonary, and cancer bills lately, I'm going to apply for financial assistance through the hospital, and really hoping we get it, otherwise things are really going to go to shit. It wasn't supposed to be this way. We saved for a good retirement. Ha. Ha.
posted by BlueHorse at 11:35 AM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
So screw 'em. My pockets are dry. I still want to help, but unless I can see exactly where my time, money, and effort are going, forget it.
Charity is a moot point anyway in this house. With all the cardiac, pulmonary, and cancer bills lately, I'm going to apply for financial assistance through the hospital, and really hoping we get it, otherwise things are really going to go to shit. It wasn't supposed to be this way. We saved for a good retirement. Ha. Ha.
posted by BlueHorse at 11:35 AM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Giving money to panhandlers is never about being reasonable or logical or efficient. It's about the moment of empathy, the human connection, the immediate reward of directly helping this person now
Other people are objecting to this but I don’t think it’s that out of line with my take. I don’t think it’s immoral to choose not to give to a panhandler in most individual instances, out of a simple sense of thrift. I dislike when people (in a U.S. context because that’s what I know) have these wrongheaded stories they tell to make it out like they are the moral ones for not giving, for never giving. There’s a difference between a long-term solution to someone’s needs and a small act of altruism, but I’m encouraging people to see, say “helping a stranger not be dopesick” as a small but legitimate act of altruism in its own right.
posted by atoxyl at 1:23 PM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Other people are objecting to this but I don’t think it’s that out of line with my take. I don’t think it’s immoral to choose not to give to a panhandler in most individual instances, out of a simple sense of thrift. I dislike when people (in a U.S. context because that’s what I know) have these wrongheaded stories they tell to make it out like they are the moral ones for not giving, for never giving. There’s a difference between a long-term solution to someone’s needs and a small act of altruism, but I’m encouraging people to see, say “helping a stranger not be dopesick” as a small but legitimate act of altruism in its own right.
posted by atoxyl at 1:23 PM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Then they’d follow with some version of the shopworn “just need gas/transit fare” story
There was a guy who hit me with such a polished and psychologically sophisticated version of this routine that I felt like I had to fork over some cash just for the quality of the work. Not the second time I ran into him, though - “sorry, man, you already got me.”
posted by atoxyl at 1:34 PM on August 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
There was a guy who hit me with such a polished and psychologically sophisticated version of this routine that I felt like I had to fork over some cash just for the quality of the work. Not the second time I ran into him, though - “sorry, man, you already got me.”
posted by atoxyl at 1:34 PM on August 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I give money to panhandlers when I have it, which is less often now that using cards for everything has become practically universal. I don't care what they use the money for. If that maddog or bundle gets them through the day, it's ok by me.
Though I am reminded of the time I gave a gentleman in a small park in Phila. a little cash while I was waiting for a friend. My friend saw this and proceeded to give me a lecture on how they were just gonna use the money to buy booze or drugs. Just as the lecture was winding down, the gentleman walked back into the park with a foot long hoagie.
Look, if you don't want to give money to the homeless, it's your choice, and none of my business. Likewise I don't want to hear your lecture about how I'm only making the problem worse or whatever song and dance you have that makes you feel better.
posted by evilDoug at 2:10 PM on August 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Though I am reminded of the time I gave a gentleman in a small park in Phila. a little cash while I was waiting for a friend. My friend saw this and proceeded to give me a lecture on how they were just gonna use the money to buy booze or drugs. Just as the lecture was winding down, the gentleman walked back into the park with a foot long hoagie.
Look, if you don't want to give money to the homeless, it's your choice, and none of my business. Likewise I don't want to hear your lecture about how I'm only making the problem worse or whatever song and dance you have that makes you feel better.
posted by evilDoug at 2:10 PM on August 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I felt like I had to fork over some cash just for the quality of the work
OMG this one time I gave money to a guy on a Boston street for this reason: he approached me holding forth about Jesus + how hungry he was in an eeeeever so slightly off-center way that made me think he was a bit drunk? But holy wow the charisma oozing off of this man. In just those 30 seconds I felt as if I'd watched a very talented busker. I gave him $5 and he gave me a card - a BUSINESS CARD! - that had his name on one side and "Jesus loves you for feeding this hungry man" on the other. It was an incredible performance.
PS: I really do agree for the most part with atoxyl and praemunire and the rest of you re: mutual aid and directly giving money to folks who have no access to institutional help. What aspects of my argument I still cling to are to do with a notion that there IS trust and softness being expressed in the act of volunteering at a soup kitchen too - not only when we hand soup to a stranger from our community fridge. I wouldn't fault anyone who only does the former and never the latter. I wouldn't say they've hardened their hearts. What's important is we each find our own ways to care for our community - and if that way happens to prioritize safety, well, that isn't a lesser or colder form of charity.
posted by MiraK at 2:32 PM on August 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
OMG this one time I gave money to a guy on a Boston street for this reason: he approached me holding forth about Jesus + how hungry he was in an eeeeever so slightly off-center way that made me think he was a bit drunk? But holy wow the charisma oozing off of this man. In just those 30 seconds I felt as if I'd watched a very talented busker. I gave him $5 and he gave me a card - a BUSINESS CARD! - that had his name on one side and "Jesus loves you for feeding this hungry man" on the other. It was an incredible performance.
PS: I really do agree for the most part with atoxyl and praemunire and the rest of you re: mutual aid and directly giving money to folks who have no access to institutional help. What aspects of my argument I still cling to are to do with a notion that there IS trust and softness being expressed in the act of volunteering at a soup kitchen too - not only when we hand soup to a stranger from our community fridge. I wouldn't fault anyone who only does the former and never the latter. I wouldn't say they've hardened their hearts. What's important is we each find our own ways to care for our community - and if that way happens to prioritize safety, well, that isn't a lesser or colder form of charity.
posted by MiraK at 2:32 PM on August 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I lived in Thailand for decades, back when the only two groups who spoke decent English were the wealthy, and people who made a living scamming tourists ( yes, not all...) Also, anyone walking up to foreign strangers on any pretext, guaranteed to be a con.
I quickly learned to avoid touristed areas, frequented subsistence farmer countryside villages and learned to speak enough Thai to get by. That is, to get scammed in Thai - LOL just kidding!
Country folk, salt of the Earth Buddha bless 'em
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 4:21 PM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I quickly learned to avoid touristed areas, frequented subsistence farmer countryside villages and learned to speak enough Thai to get by. That is, to get scammed in Thai - LOL just kidding!
Country folk, salt of the Earth Buddha bless 'em
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 4:21 PM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Giving money to panhandlers is never about being reasonable or logical or efficient.
Remind again how the effective altruism movement turned out...
posted by srboisvert at 2:47 PM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Remind again how the effective altruism movement turned out...
posted by srboisvert at 2:47 PM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
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-Lee Oswald.
old internet adage, if you wait long enough by the computer, your scam will CC on by.
posted by clavdivs at 1:32 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]